Fallback mode is NOT Gnome 2, and it's not configurable to be like Gnome 2. You're stuck with Fallback mode exactly as it is without the ability to configure it to behave properly.
Yes, yes you can. You could have that in Gnome 2 and XFCE. "Applications Menu" quick start icons, minimized windows, notification area and clock, on the bottom as God intended.
You don't know that the DS and PSP both have standby modes? The only reason I'd be worried about standby is if my battery was low and even then, some PSP games have "save anywhere"
One thing that is horribly wrong with Linux today is that a useful software package is nearly impossible to create which works on ALL of the current distributions.
[joke]Haven't you ever heard of source tarballs?[/joke]
I know, I know, I avoid source compiles as much as possible.
(though I'm not pleased with F15 at all... mostly GNOME3's fault)
What matters is that when Joe Luser double-clicks on a.txt file it should open in something which most emphatically isn't a marginally desktopized vi or emacs, has a "File: Save As" menu option and which is labelled "Text Editor" and not "KGViMACS2".
I'm running XFCE on Fedora 15 and text files open in gedit, which reminds me, though I actually prefer Cream-ified gvim to gedit.
When they double-click on a.doc or a.docx it doesn't really matter whether it opens in OpenOffice, LibreOffice or KOffice provided (a) it does a half-decent job of converting the.doc and (b) is described in the menu as "Word Processor".
.doc opens in LibreOffice Writer, which is named LibreOffice Writer in the Menus, no popup with anything like "Word Processor" Oh wait, they weren't on...never mind... LibreWriter's says: Create and edit text and graphics in letters, reports, documents and Web pages by using Writer. And there's also a "Show Generic Application Names" option that changes it's name in the menu to "Word Processor"
Open Office is a bitch to use if all you want to do is a school paper and never used it before.
For that use case, OO is overkill, what you need is something like Wordpad or Microsoft Works Word Processor (which I actually liked more than Word) The closest LInux equivalent would be Abiword, which I like more than OO/Librewriter
Gimp might have allot of technical ability but the interface is (well was) mind boggling X11 trash interface.
Try using the 1.14 version sometime, god that was horrible...it's got some better.
I'm not a Linux newbie and I"m not even for sure what it means. I know it's the bootloader and perhaps stands for GRand Unified Bootloader or something like that. I know about the configuration file, that I edited to showmenu and change the default boot timeout.
I thought Linux supported Blu-Ray data discs just fine Heck, I know that YDL users were able to mount PS3 games and explore the filesystem....blu-ray movies are a different matter, of course.
Why would someone need to install Windows based Office when in many distros an office suite is installed by default? In my dstro and DE it's in the Applications Menu>Office.
Linux distros needs to be easy enough that people don't need an IT professional in the house to use it, install their software, get connected and do day to day tasks using the software which is often required by the people they have to work with.
They were....10 years ago. My first Distro was one based on Red Hat 6, I was able to install, use it, get connected and do day to day tasks without being an IT professional.
Huh? The Gameboy had graphics far far above that of the Atari 2600, though it was only 4 shades of gray. Links Awakening was a Game Boy title as were the first two Pokemon games.
I have told you this before: You start as a low level peon in somebody else's development house. Prove yourself, work hard, and maybe someday you can found your own dev house
Skyrim is an FPS, so FPS players are by definition the target market.
The term FPS stands for First Person Shooter. Skyrim is not a shooter, because in elder scrolls game, you're probably meleeing much more than shooting arrows. And in the modern Elder Scrolls games at least it doesn't matter where you aim, just as long as you're aimed in the general direction of the enemy. Didn't you play Oblivion? It's not like TF2 or UT where your weapon does more damage with a headshot. In Elder Scrolls games your stats determine hit and damage, not ones aiming skills.
Skyrim is probably also a Third Person game as well, in Oblivion you could switch between the views at will. This isn't a modern version of Hexen or Heretic, a FPS with wands in place of shotguns and rocket launchers
Kudos for that whoami output or whatever (I can't be bothered to check, it was either that or uname output).
uname -a...had to update my PS3 for PSN or I could have done uname on it as well (had Yellow Dog LInux on it). I could still do it on a PS2 (yes, I have had the Linux kit since 2002), but it's put away and not connected and I lost my VGA dongle. You would probably think my gaming setup funny. I have a small 19" HDTV (1440x900, yeah I want a small 1920x1080 to replace it when it dies) on a desk that both my PS3 and PC are connected to. Got used to using a desk with a console in the PS2 days, helped with the MMORPG's...and Linux. I use an HDTV so I can hook up my SNES and NES as well when I'm jonesing for some oldies..and emulators are not the same! I'd use a PC 1920x1080 monitor with HDMI but then I'd lose the ability to hook up any older console to it without the hassle of adapters.
Not a Sinclair Spectrum? Waits for someone to start an inevitable Speccy vs C64 flame (not me!) The CPC never made it over across the pond I think.
I didn't give you shit for using a console, and I'm glad that you would choose Oblivion et al. to play on it,
Thankees, I like a good RPG, though the real oldbies go on and on about Baldur's Gate or Planescape being the ultimate and how Oblivion (and Dragon Age and practically anything made after Baldur's Gate) isn't a REAL RPG. I started in tabletop so I was very happy when some PC RPG's got NES and SNES ports. That mostly ended though, the PSone didn't get RPG ports, shooters and sports games for the dudebro gamers. Never owned an Xbox so no Morrowind, it's one of the few Xbox games I've ever wanted to play besides Steel Battalion with that crazy cockpit style controller: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steel_Battalion As an aside, don't play the PSone version of Mechwarrior II without the giant Dual Analog flightstick, much better control...but you can't plug it into a PS3. Also most PS2/PS3 flight games (I won't call them flight sims, that pisses off the bearded guys) support USB HOTAS.
it started as an honest-to-goodness rant replying to your assertion that pads are as good as mice, which they aren't, except for certain (dated) purposes such as platformers and racers.
this is where we disagree, I think the dual analog sticks work pretty well with all genres, they're not perfect, but a good compromise that I'm willing to use with MOST games...not all. @#$# Timesplitters. But as I said, console on the desktop so I can plug in a mouse and/or keyboard if I want for specific games. Did you know the PS3 version of Oblivion supports USB keyboard for text entry: naming spells, items, and your character? That's the only thing you can use it for though, it uses the standard PS3 text widget which automatically supports USB keyboard if you have one plugged in.
I would also never use a dual analog controller with a racer like Gran Turismo...found that out with GT2 back on the PSone! The games are now designed with wheels in mind so the license challenges are more difficult (sometimes insanely difficult) if you use a controller. So difficult that I get stuck and can't progress much. Kart racers are fine.
I also discovered that mice are only slightly better than a gamepad with classic RTS at least the ones I've played, all PSone RTS's that I have, have PSone mouse support. Not really enough to make a difference in play. In fact with one, Warzone 2100 is annoying in that some things are much easier with the dual shock (It actually has analog support)...and some are easier with the PSone mouse.
There's also a PSone shooter that should ONLY be played with the PSone mouse aiming, that being Alien Resurrection. You have such limited ammo, even on easy, that you have to conserve it which requires headshots. The game focuses so much on pinpoint headshots at range that
You bite, but you're fairly honorable and respectabful in the biting so I'll respond again.
Most people would interpret this as implying that a dual stick controller is equivalent to a mouse, which is not true.
I would say mostly equivalent. There is only one console game where I wished for mouse support and that was Timesplitters, which some might say is the spiritual descendent of Goldeneye which I also had problems with. While the PS2 ports of Deus Ex and Half-Life DID have such support, it wasn't absolutely necessary.
It has never been true, and never will be, as has been proven in countless replies since then by myself and others.
A reply is not proof, just because a bunch of PC gamers whining about a cross platform RPG's UI say it's so, doesn't make it so.
c) expected that we would not agree with you!
I expected it, from yeas of Slashdot yes. Too many PC only snobs here. Which surprises me, considering how LInux centric Slashdot is I'd think more people would game on consoles and then use Linux on their non-gaming computers.
With a UID as low as yours,
First time mine's ever been called low..when did I join, it was either 1999 or 2000 I think.
I would have expected that a) you would know better than to think that you would win a console vs pc troll here
I expected that more oldbies would show up and say for that an RPG like Skyrim a dual analog controller will be fine.
and that b) you would have realised by now that the majority of gamers who read a technically orientated computing website would frown upon the "kiddie toys" you quite aptly describe in your own post.
I expected more Linux users to back me up! Must be more dual-booters than I thought. And thanks for putting "kiddie toys" in quotes, we both know they're not. They're usually running hardware that gets good bang for the cycles.
And that applies to all the twenty-something unemployed chavs with their "box"es who never grew up, too.
yeah, those, we con't call them chavs over here across the pond though...can't stand them either...which is why I'm not that much into shooters.
And on this article too - Oblivion, a game for the mindset that wouldn't normally play Street Fighter,7, John Madden 3000k, or bloody FIFA, which you know damn well are the mainstays, and cash cows, of the dumbed-down console industry.
I don't play Street Fighter, Madenn or FIFA, I'm not a "dudebro sports and shooter only" gamer. Give me stats and spells any day. I wouldn't use the term dumbed down, but "mass market" Even in the old days, action games sold more than the old RPG's and hex games on PC's and consoles alike. what I wouldn't give for some ports of some older RPG's that I never got to play to PSN, especially the Japan only PSone port of Ultima Underworld!
Leave the library (since you hate PCs so much I can't imagine you actually own one!),
I run Linux, it's not PC's I dislike...it's Windows. I save my tinkering fun for Linux, when I play games, I don't want to tinker or fuss.
go home, turn on the box, and impress your Live "buddies" with your leet pad-wielding skills.
You insult me to the quick! I don't do Live, PS2/PS3 owner...and I don't do multiplayer on PSN much.
Did do a bit of SOCOM 1/2/3 on the PS2..but that's a team based third person realistic shooter. Played more EQOA (that's the PS2 Everquest MMORPG) and FFXI (the PS2 Final Fantasy MMORPG) So...I am not one of those "halo fanboys"
Have done a bit of online multiplayer Sacred 2, but that's a cooperative Diablo clone. I love me a reasonably fun Diablo clone. Hoping Blizzard gets wise and does it for PS3 as well. Tried the PS3 Team Fortress 2 (as part of the Orange Box I g
You can't afford to build a PC so we who can (and it's not much of a stretch, I'm currently unemployed!) must be snobs, what with wanting to customise the experienceand make it, err, better!
uname -a
Linux wutai 2.6.40-4.fc15.x86_64 #1 SMP Fri Jul 29 18:46:53 UTC 2011 x86_64 x86_64 x86_64 GNU/Linux
cat/proc/cpuinfo
processor : 0 vendor_id : AuthenticAMD cpu family : 16 model : 6 model name : AMD Athlon(tm) II X2 240 Processor
This machine obviously exceeds the minimum and recommended specs for two of the biggest PC games: Team Fortress 2 and world of Warcraft. And I do play LOTRO on it now and again...can't stand the WASD movement though. I play the PS3 version of FreeRealms more, it's more enjoyable with the DualShock...especially the kart racing.
It's not any better, it truly isn't. It's different, yes, but not better.
"stop worrying and love the dualshock" = we pwn you on level ground with our input devices,
But aren't console gamers and PC gamers brethren? Do we not basically play the same games now? Why the hostility why the condescenscion towards cross platform? Is it because you know that hardware really doesn't matter so much anymore and you hate that?
someone else slammed your reply to me above and my point was proven, and our games look and play better,
They do? Sure you can mod games to shit but does it make it truly better or is it something only for the obsessive nerds. Sure you've got somewhat higher resolution displays but there comes a point of diminishing returns. They might look some better, but is it worth the extra expense for only a slight improvement that most people can't tell the difference?
so instead of aspiring to be like us you try to ram your crappy hardware down our throat?
My hardware I use for games most of the time is designed for games....yours is not, at it's core it's a machine designed for spreadsheets and word processors with add on kludges to enable it play games. Sure they work pretty well, but they're not efficient like a games console has to be. Need I remind you that in the early days of the IBM PC, the C64, originally designed as a game console (The C64 is basically a Commodore Max with a keyboard) like the Amiga after, was considered superior? Even the NES was considered superior for action games.
And even before then, before there were any gaming PC's in the homes, there was the Odyssey, and the famous Atari 2600 was released the same year as the Apple II, easily outsold it too.
So don't give me any shit for using a console, especially not for a Bethesda game.
Once you have an analogue controller that allows you to turn around and aim at an arbitrary tiny spot of your choice within a fraction of a second, you can come back.
Skyrim is a fantasy RPG, you're not going to be needing to headshot some Strogg's tiny 4 pixel head from a mile away while bunnyhopping around in it.
Agreed, that's why it's called Unreal tournament. It tests reflexes and accuracy, using the best input method available currently (kb+m).
No, the best would be analog stick and mouse wouldn't it? Best of both worlds?
Not once did I assert that mouse is more realistic (even though, in many ways, it is!). I said I'd kick your pad-wielding ass if the powers that be would let us play on the same servers. And I was right, and you've pretty much just admitted you lost this one by moving the goalposts. Thanks. Rachel 1. Troll 0.
You'll notice my original post was solely about keyboard movement, it was others that brought up mice. THEY and you moved the goalpost into "you can't get easy headshots with a stick for aiming and we would frag all console gamers if we played together.", when all I was talking about was moving. And there's no proof that it would be the case, as far as I know only 2 games allowed cross platform FPS gaming, which isn't enough for a real test. especially not with the crappy Dreamcast and original Xbox pads compared to the DualShock 2 and 3. and Xbox 360 pads, which have much better sticks.
And if you want to talk about goal posts, PC gamers are always moving the "goal posts of equality" forward. PC gamers seem to simply not want to treat their console brethren as equals in electronic gaming even when the games are pretty much the same now. PC gamers diss console gamers far more than the reverse. You remember DOOM? How PC gamers said "You'll never see a action packed blood drenched slugathon like DOOM on a kiddie console" That sort of attitude was very common.
Then it became "You may have doom but you'll never have deathmatch, that's where the real men play."
Then it became: "You may have same screen deathmatch but you'll never be able play over the internet."
Then it became "Okay so you can play shooters on the net now, but you'll never play MMORPG's on a console!"
And then: "Okay, you have a few MMORPG's now, but we have high resolution screens and super complex games even though we only talk about shooters and RTS's that aren't as complex as the hex based wargames one could play on a C64. And you can't post to Slashdot on a PS2...oh okay you can if you have BBN or a Linux install, but they can't post to slashdot by default!"
And now: "okay you've got 1920x1080 and the console versions of shooters sell a lot of copies and most RPG's and RPG tinged games are cross platform, and you have online stores and leaderboards and demos and web browsers stuff. But we have Minecraft! And indie games like Angry Birds...whats that you can play that on your PSP and PS3? Well we still have those few graybearded mil-tech obsessed engineer types who spent hundreds of dollars for their HOTAS so they can play whatever modded flight sim from 10 years ago they play! And we have Civilization, you only have Civ Revolutions...and Civ II. We also have Farmville!"
I've seen that sort of shit on Slashdot, many many times.
They are less good at things that need lots of proportional movement like Vehicles. For movement in something like Skyrim, keyboard+mouse is 100% the best.
Horses? And people themselves move proportionally you know.
Just take any FPS game and have dual-analog guys go against mouse+keyboard guys and see who's left standing at the end.
Skyrim is an RPG so bunny hopping head-shotting FPS players aren't the target market.
BS. I actually attempted to play PS1 version of Diablo, after 10 minutes I turned it off, the controls are stupid and uncomfortable.
I actually had the reaction you did when I first played PSone Diablo, but did you go into settings and change movement to "Relative" and enable combo buttons? They're off by default, don't know why, because those settings make the controls better.
This is so silly guys. I remember when the mouse was poo poo for FPS games and real gamers used all keyboard.
Yeah, I remember the fuss mouse aiming started...lots of people saying how the mouse dumbed things down so that anyone could get headshots and made the games too easy.
Now somehow the mouse is OK, but analog input for non-rotational movement is POO POO.
Eventually I suppose an analog stick version of the those Nostromo speedpads will be standard equipment for PC FPS players. They'll keep their mice for the easy headshots though.
I don't know, but don't PC gamers on Slashdot do a a lot of generalizing and stereotyping of console gamers? Yes they do. I'm just giving PC gamers a piece of their own crap back at them, they deserve it the snobby bastards.
Comon joystick boy, just watch this, this and this video and tell me you can do that stuff with your joystick. Now watch a someone on a PS3 play UT3. I hope you have the intellectual honesty to admit the clear difference.
Bunny hopping and leaping around while carrying a half dozen weapons? That's not very realistic is it...if you had that much equipment on in RL would you be jumping and turning like that...no, you would not. If games aspire to realism..then they shouldn't have been able to do that.
Here's a good test. Try using your joystick to control your computer. You can do it, it's not difficult to setup. Now try and click on the icons with your joystick. Now try again with your mouse. See the difference?
Yes, I've done it, works well, for the most part. You're not going to be using it to draw with, of course the real pros don't use mice for that either. But it's fine for the average pointing and clicking.
Now imagine all the icons are people's heads and you're in a FPS. Can you see how a mouse makes things a little easier?
When you learn to fire a real gun, what do they teach you? Fire at center of mass. I'm one of those that believes that the PC FPS focus on headshots and bunny hopping is unrealistic cartoony stuff in games that supposedly aspire to realism.
Just ask yourself if you can tau jump do a 163'/37' turn, tau jump, do a 27'/47' turn and shoot a crossbow at a 4pxX4px head in 1920x1080.
Probably not, I don't play competitive every man for himself deathmatch FPS's and I rarely play team based ones. But here's the thing...could you do that in RL weighed down by that equipment? No. So why are headshot obsessed FPS fanboys playing unrealistic games the pinnacle of gamer culture. It makes no sense to me. Give me a game where if you add a grenade launcher to your M4, you become slower. Where if you carry extra ammo, your crosshairs move slower, where if you move a corpse...you drag it...slowly. Where you don't fire a rocket at your feet to reach the top of a building. Where you have an assault rifle, and pistol and a few grenades...maybe a scope or grenade launcher if you're wiling to slow down. Where if you're carrying the heavy machine gun or light anti-tank rocket launcher, you are even slower, and can carry even less equipment. Where you can't turn 180 degrees and get headshots flying around and leaping because one..that's not how you were supposedly trained...and secondly because you're carrying 80 pounds of stuff, wearing a heavy helmet and trying to stay in cover in the first place.
1) Tons of keys. Nothing even comes close
yes, but can you use them all effectively. No you can't, so half of them are basically out of the picture, unless you move one hand from home position or another from the mouse position....I'm a touch typist, and that just feels.....wrong..
2) when you move, you move at full speed, unlike with a stick where you 'start' moving first.
But in the real world, there's this thing called inertia...where you "start" moving first. You don't automatically go from 0 to 50 in 0 seconds. Analog movement is actually more realistic.
3) You can type with it. The only thing joysticks do worse than FPSs is typing.
Yes, but you aren't typing while you're hopping and shooting are you? And there's nothing stopping people from typing with keyboards on their consoles...the PS2 and PS3 have USB ports for a reason.
As another poster said, nobody can think of a single reason why an analog stick would be more useful for your foot moment. The obvious argument is that you can 'walk' with it, but I can walk with the keyboard by pressing shift, admittedly at one speed or another, I just question the usefulness of traveling at speeds in between. I
A bunch of us have been playing TES games just fine with a keyboard and mouse too. And there are many millions of people world-wide playing WoW and other games just fine with keyboard and mouse.
If you recall, I didn't say one thing about mice, only keyboards. and in fact I said one of the ways of having analog movement and aiming was using an analog stick for movement, but a mouse for aiming.
And yes, there are plenty of people who use keyboards to move in MMO's, but movement in those games is really secondary, you're often standing in one place. and not moving while attacking since it's all numbers. So the keyboard suffices. but any FFXI player out there can tell you they could always spot the players of the PC version, because they moved like crap. I want to be able to move, crawl, and run in any direction without holding a modifier key or even MULTIPLE modifier keysand cramping my hand...an analog stick does that for movement. Much more confortable.
For my sake, there were places in Oblivion where I wouldn't have wanted digital movement.
MOVEMENT with a keyboard and mouse is a problem, or that
My response was soley about movement, not aiming. You don't move with the mouse, you AIM with the mouse. Unless of course you're one of those crazy "hunter mouse" people. I like mice just fine, thank you very much, they're great for fine pointing...but in a realistic game, you shouldn't be able to fine point and headshot every time. Because in real life, you're taught to aim at center of mass.
everyone disagreeing with your delusions is only playing FPS frag-fests, or that
look at the responses, people responding are talking about FPS's and headshots!
Slashdot Mirror
Fallback mode is NOT Gnome 2, and it's not configurable to be like Gnome 2. You're stuck with Fallback mode exactly as it is without the ability to configure it to behave properly.
Yes, yes you can. You could have that in Gnome 2 and XFCE. "Applications Menu" quick start icons, minimized windows, notification area and clock, on the bottom as God intended.
You don't know that the DS and PSP both have standby modes? The only reason I'd be worried about standby is if my battery was low and even then, some PSP games have "save anywhere"
ISP's are stingy with space and don't support IMAP. I do use IMAP with Gmail though, no ads, AND you can use gnupg and s/mime that way...if you want.
One thing that is horribly wrong with Linux today is that a useful software package is nearly impossible to create which works on ALL of the current distributions.
[joke]Haven't you ever heard of source tarballs?[/joke]
I know, I know, I avoid source compiles as much as possible.
(though I'm not pleased with F15 at all... mostly GNOME3's fault)
Switch to XFCE, you'll be mostly pleased.
What matters is that when Joe Luser double-clicks on a .txt file it should open in something which most emphatically isn't a marginally desktopized vi or emacs, has a "File: Save As" menu option and which is labelled "Text Editor" and not "KGViMACS2".
I'm running XFCE on Fedora 15 and text files open in gedit, which reminds me, though I actually prefer Cream-ified gvim to gedit.
When they double-click on a .doc or a .docx it doesn't really matter whether it opens in OpenOffice, LibreOffice or KOffice provided (a) it does a half-decent job of converting the .doc and (b) is described in the menu as "Word Processor".
.doc opens in LibreOffice Writer, which is named LibreOffice Writer in the Menus, no popup with anything like "Word Processor" Oh wait, they weren't on...never mind... LibreWriter's says: Create and edit text and graphics in letters, reports, documents and Web pages by using Writer. And there's also a "Show Generic Application Names" option that changes it's name in the menu to "Word Processor"
Okian Warrior is right by all accounts.
He's mostly right.
Open Office is a bitch to use if all you want to do is a school paper and never used it before.
For that use case, OO is overkill, what you need is something like Wordpad or Microsoft Works Word Processor (which I actually liked more than Word) The closest LInux equivalent would be Abiword, which I like more than OO/Librewriter
Gimp might have allot of technical ability but the interface is (well was) mind boggling X11 trash interface.
Try using the 1.14 version sometime, god that was horrible...it's got some better.
I'm not a Linux newbie and I"m not even for sure what it means. I know it's the bootloader and perhaps stands for GRand Unified Bootloader or something like that. I know about the configuration file, that I edited to showmenu and change the default boot timeout.
I thought Linux supported Blu-Ray data discs just fine Heck, I know that YDL users were able to mount PS3 games and explore the filesystem....blu-ray movies are a different matter, of course.
Why would someone need to install Windows based Office when in many distros an office suite is installed by default? In my dstro and DE it's in the Applications Menu>Office.
Linux distros needs to be easy enough that people don't need an IT professional in the house to use it, install their software, get connected and do day to day tasks using the software which is often required by the people they have to work with.
They were....10 years ago. My first Distro was one based on Red Hat 6, I was able to install, use it, get connected and do day to day tasks without being an IT professional.
Huh? The Gameboy had graphics far far above that of the Atari 2600, though it was only 4 shades of gray. Links Awakening was a Game Boy title as were the first two Pokemon games.
Pool of Radiance? Predecessor? Uninstalled? It was a DOS game from 1989,ran from floppy, didn't have a predecessor.
Unless you're referring to this Pool of Radiance:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pool_of_Radiance:_Ruins_of_Myth_Drannor
I have told you this before:
You start as a low level peon in somebody else's development house. Prove yourself, work hard, and maybe someday you can found your own dev house
Skyrim is an FPS, so FPS players are by definition the target market.
The term FPS stands for First Person Shooter. Skyrim is not a shooter, because in elder scrolls game, you're probably meleeing much more than shooting arrows. And in the modern Elder Scrolls games at least it doesn't matter where you aim, just as long as you're aimed in the general direction of the enemy. Didn't you play Oblivion? It's not like TF2 or UT where your weapon does more damage with a headshot. In Elder Scrolls games your stats determine hit and damage, not ones aiming skills.
Skyrim is probably also a Third Person game as well, in Oblivion you could switch between the views at will. This isn't a modern version of Hexen or Heretic, a FPS with wands in place of shotguns and rocket launchers
Kudos for that whoami output or whatever (I can't be bothered to check, it was either that or uname output).
uname -a...had to update my PS3 for PSN or I could have done uname on it as well (had Yellow Dog LInux on it). I could still do it on a PS2 (yes, I have had the Linux kit since 2002), but it's put away and not connected and I lost my VGA dongle. You would probably think my gaming setup funny.
I have a small 19" HDTV (1440x900, yeah I want a small 1920x1080 to replace it when it dies) on a desk that both my PS3 and PC are connected to. Got used to using a desk with a console in the PS2 days, helped with the MMORPG's...and Linux. I use an HDTV so I can hook up my SNES and NES as well when I'm jonesing for some oldies..and emulators are not the same! I'd use a PC 1920x1080 monitor with HDMI but then I'd lose the ability to hook up any older console to it without the hassle of adapters.
Not a Sinclair Spectrum? Waits for someone to start an inevitable Speccy vs C64 flame (not me!) The CPC never made it over across the pond I think.
I didn't give you shit for using a console, and I'm glad that you would choose Oblivion et al. to play on it,
Thankees, I like a good RPG, though the real oldbies go on and on about Baldur's Gate or Planescape being the ultimate and how Oblivion (and Dragon Age and practically anything made after Baldur's Gate) isn't a REAL RPG. I started in tabletop so I was very happy when some PC RPG's got NES and SNES ports. That mostly ended though, the PSone didn't get RPG ports, shooters and sports games for the dudebro gamers. Never owned an Xbox so no Morrowind, it's one of the few Xbox games I've ever wanted to play besides Steel Battalion with that crazy cockpit style controller: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steel_Battalion As an aside, don't play the PSone version of Mechwarrior II without the giant Dual Analog flightstick, much better control...but you can't plug it into a PS3. Also most PS2/PS3 flight games (I won't call them flight sims, that pisses off the bearded guys) support USB HOTAS.
it started as an honest-to-goodness rant replying to your assertion that pads are as good as mice, which they aren't, except for certain (dated) purposes such as platformers and racers.
this is where we disagree, I think the dual analog sticks work pretty well with all genres, they're not perfect, but a good compromise that I'm willing to use with MOST games...not all. @#$# Timesplitters. But as I said, console on the desktop so I can plug in a mouse and/or keyboard if I want for specific games. Did you know the PS3 version of Oblivion supports USB keyboard for text entry: naming spells, items, and your character? That's the only thing you can use it for though, it uses the standard PS3 text widget which automatically supports USB keyboard if you have one plugged in.
I would also never use a dual analog controller with a racer like Gran Turismo...found that out with GT2 back on the PSone! The games are now designed with wheels in mind so the license challenges are more difficult (sometimes insanely difficult) if you use a controller. So difficult that I get stuck and can't progress much.
Kart racers are fine.
I also discovered that mice are only slightly better than a gamepad with classic RTS at least the ones I've played, all PSone RTS's that I have, have PSone mouse support. Not really enough to make a difference in play. In fact with one, Warzone 2100 is annoying in that some things are much easier with the dual shock (It actually has analog support)...and some are easier with the PSone mouse.
There's also a PSone shooter that should ONLY be played with the PSone mouse aiming, that being Alien Resurrection. You have such limited ammo, even on easy, that you have to conserve it which requires headshots. The game focuses so much on pinpoint headshots at range that
You bite, but you're fairly honorable and respectabful in the biting so I'll respond again.
Most people would interpret this as implying that a dual stick controller is equivalent to a mouse, which is not true.
I would say mostly equivalent. There is only one console game where I wished for mouse support and that was Timesplitters, which some might say is the spiritual descendent of Goldeneye which I also had problems with. While the PS2 ports of Deus Ex and Half-Life DID have such support, it wasn't absolutely necessary.
It has never been true, and never will be, as has been proven in countless replies since then by myself and others.
A reply is not proof, just because a bunch of PC gamers whining about a cross platform RPG's UI say it's so, doesn't make it so.
c) expected that we would not agree with you!
I expected it, from yeas of Slashdot yes. Too many PC only snobs here. Which surprises me, considering how LInux centric Slashdot is I'd think more people would game on consoles and then use Linux on their non-gaming computers.
With a UID as low as yours,
First time mine's ever been called low..when did I join, it was either 1999 or 2000 I think.
I would have expected that a) you would know better than to think that you would win a console vs pc troll here
I expected that more oldbies would show up and say for that an RPG like Skyrim a dual analog controller will be fine.
and that b) you would have realised by now that the majority of gamers who read a technically orientated computing website would frown upon the "kiddie toys" you quite aptly describe in your own post.
I expected more Linux users to back me up! Must be more dual-booters than I thought. And thanks for putting "kiddie toys" in quotes, we both know they're not. They're usually running hardware that gets good bang for the cycles.
And that applies to all the twenty-something unemployed chavs with their "box"es who never grew up, too.
yeah, those, we con't call them chavs over here across the pond though...can't stand them either...which is why I'm not that much into shooters.
And on this article too - Oblivion, a game for the mindset that wouldn't normally play Street Fighter,7, John Madden 3000k, or bloody FIFA, which you know damn well are the mainstays, and cash cows, of the dumbed-down console industry.
I don't play Street Fighter, Madenn or FIFA, I'm not a "dudebro sports and shooter only" gamer. Give me stats and spells any day. I wouldn't use the term dumbed down, but "mass market" Even in the old days, action games sold more than the old RPG's and hex games on PC's and consoles alike. what I wouldn't give for some ports of some older RPG's that I never got to play to PSN, especially the Japan only PSone port of Ultima Underworld!
Leave the library (since you hate PCs so much I can't imagine you actually own one!),
I run Linux, it's not PC's I dislike...it's Windows. I save my tinkering fun for Linux, when I play games, I don't want to tinker or fuss.
go home, turn on the box, and impress your Live "buddies" with your leet pad-wielding skills.
You insult me to the quick! I don't do Live, PS2/PS3 owner...and I don't do multiplayer on PSN much.
Did do a bit of SOCOM 1/2/3 on the PS2..but that's a team based third person realistic shooter. Played more EQOA (that's the PS2 Everquest MMORPG) and FFXI (the PS2 Final Fantasy MMORPG) So...I am not one of those "halo fanboys"
Have done a bit of online multiplayer Sacred 2, but that's a cooperative Diablo clone. I love me a reasonably fun Diablo clone. Hoping Blizzard gets wise and does it for PS3 as well. Tried the PS3 Team Fortress 2 (as part of the Orange Box I g
You can't afford to build a PC so we who can (and it's not much of a stretch, I'm currently unemployed!) must be snobs, what with wanting to customise the experienceand make it, err, better!
uname -a
Linux wutai 2.6.40-4.fc15.x86_64 #1 SMP Fri Jul 29 18:46:53 UTC 2011 x86_64 x86_64 x86_64 GNU/Linux
cat /proc/cpuinfo
processor : 0
vendor_id : AuthenticAMD
cpu family : 16
model : 6
model name : AMD Athlon(tm) II X2 240 Processor
free
total used free shared buffers cached
Mem: 3091000 943984 2147016 0 101368 459780
-/+ buffers/cache: 382836 2708164
Swap: 4915196 0 4915196
lspci
02:00.0 VGA compatible controller: nVidia Corporation GT216 [GeForce GT 220] (rev a2)
This machine obviously exceeds the minimum and recommended specs for two of the biggest PC games: Team Fortress 2 and world of Warcraft. And I do play LOTRO on it now and again...can't stand the WASD movement though. I play the PS3 version of FreeRealms more, it's more enjoyable with the DualShock...especially the kart racing.
It's not any better, it truly isn't. It's different, yes, but not better.
"stop worrying and love the dualshock" = we pwn you on level ground with our input devices,
But aren't console gamers and PC gamers brethren? Do we not basically play the same games now? Why the hostility why the condescenscion towards cross platform? Is it because you know that hardware really doesn't matter so much anymore and you hate that?
someone else slammed your reply to me above and my point was proven, and our games look and play better,
They do? Sure you can mod games to shit but does it make it truly better or is it something only for the obsessive nerds. Sure you've got somewhat higher resolution displays but there comes a point of diminishing returns. They might look some better, but is it worth the extra expense for only a slight improvement that most people can't tell the difference?
so instead of aspiring to be like us you try to ram your crappy hardware down our throat?
My hardware I use for games most of the time is designed for games....yours is not, at it's core it's a machine designed for spreadsheets and word processors with add on kludges to enable it play games. Sure they work pretty well, but they're not efficient like a games console has to be. Need I remind you that in the early days of the IBM PC, the C64, originally designed as a game console (The C64 is basically a Commodore Max with a keyboard) like the Amiga after, was considered superior? Even the NES was considered superior for action games.
And even before then, before there were any gaming PC's in the homes, there was the Odyssey, and the famous Atari 2600 was released the same year as the Apple II, easily outsold it too.
So don't give me any shit for using a console, especially not for a Bethesda game.
Once you have an analogue controller that allows you to turn around and aim at an arbitrary tiny spot of your choice within a fraction of a second, you can come back.
Skyrim is a fantasy RPG, you're not going to be needing to headshot some Strogg's tiny 4 pixel head from a mile away while bunnyhopping around in it.
Agreed, that's why it's called Unreal tournament. It tests reflexes and accuracy, using the best input method available currently (kb+m).
No, the best would be analog stick and mouse wouldn't it? Best of both worlds?
Not once did I assert that mouse is more realistic (even though, in many ways, it is!). I said I'd kick your pad-wielding ass if the powers that be would let us play on the same servers. And I was right, and you've pretty much just admitted you lost this one by moving the goalposts. Thanks. Rachel 1. Troll 0.
You'll notice my original post was solely about keyboard movement, it was others that brought up mice. THEY and you moved the goalpost into "you can't get easy headshots with a stick for aiming and we would frag all console gamers if we played together.", when all I was talking about was moving. And there's no proof that it would be the case, as far as I know only 2 games allowed cross platform FPS gaming, which isn't enough for a real test. especially not with the crappy Dreamcast and original Xbox pads compared to the DualShock 2 and 3. and Xbox 360 pads, which have much better sticks.
And if you want to talk about goal posts, PC gamers are always moving the "goal posts of equality" forward. PC gamers seem to simply not want to treat their console brethren as equals in electronic gaming even when the games are pretty much the same now. PC gamers diss console gamers far more than the reverse. You remember DOOM? How PC gamers said "You'll never see a action packed blood drenched slugathon like DOOM on a kiddie console" That sort of attitude was very common.
Then it became "You may have doom but you'll never have deathmatch, that's where the real men play."
Then it became: "You may have same screen deathmatch but you'll never be able play over the internet."
Then it became "Okay so you can play shooters on the net now, but you'll never play MMORPG's on a console!"
And then: "Okay, you have a few MMORPG's now, but we have high resolution screens and super complex games even though we only talk about shooters and RTS's that aren't as complex as the hex based wargames one could play on a C64. And you can't post to Slashdot on a PS2...oh okay you can if you have BBN or a Linux install, but they can't post to slashdot by default!"
And now: "okay you've got 1920x1080 and the console versions of shooters sell a lot of copies and most RPG's and RPG tinged games are cross platform, and you have online stores and leaderboards and demos and web browsers stuff. But we have Minecraft! And indie games like Angry Birds...whats that you can play that on your PSP and PS3? Well we still have those few graybearded mil-tech obsessed engineer types who spent hundreds of dollars for their HOTAS so they can play whatever modded flight sim from 10 years ago they play! And we have Civilization, you only have Civ Revolutions...and Civ II. We also have Farmville!"
I've seen that sort of shit on Slashdot, many many times.
They are less good at things that need lots of proportional movement like Vehicles. For movement in something like Skyrim, keyboard+mouse is 100% the best.
Horses? And people themselves move proportionally you know.
Just take any FPS game and have dual-analog guys go against mouse+keyboard guys and see who's left standing at the end.
Skyrim is an RPG so bunny hopping head-shotting FPS players aren't the target market.
BS. I actually attempted to play PS1 version of Diablo, after 10 minutes I turned it off, the controls are stupid and uncomfortable.
I actually had the reaction you did when I first played PSone Diablo, but did you go into settings and change movement to "Relative" and enable combo buttons? They're off by default, don't know why, because those settings make the controls better.
This is so silly guys. I remember when the mouse was poo poo for FPS games and real gamers used all keyboard.
Yeah, I remember the fuss mouse aiming started...lots of people saying how the mouse dumbed things down so that anyone could get headshots and made the games too easy.
Now somehow the mouse is OK, but analog input for non-rotational movement is POO POO.
Eventually I suppose an analog stick version of the those Nostromo speedpads will be standard equipment for PC FPS players. They'll keep their mice for the easy headshots though.
I don't know, but don't PC gamers on Slashdot do a a lot of generalizing and stereotyping of console gamers? Yes they do. I'm just giving PC gamers a piece of their own crap back at them, they deserve it the snobby bastards.
Comon joystick boy, just watch this, this and this video and tell me you can do that stuff with your joystick. Now watch a someone on a PS3 play UT3. I hope you have the intellectual honesty to admit the clear difference.
Bunny hopping and leaping around while carrying a half dozen weapons? That's not very realistic is it...if you had that much equipment on in RL would you be jumping and turning like that...no, you would not. If games aspire to realism..then they shouldn't have been able to do that.
Here's a good test. Try using your joystick to control your computer. You can do it, it's not difficult to setup. Now try and click on the icons with your joystick. Now try again with your mouse. See the difference?
Yes, I've done it, works well, for the most part. You're not going to be using it to draw with, of course the real pros don't use mice for that either. But it's fine for the average pointing and clicking.
Now imagine all the icons are people's heads and you're in a FPS. Can you see how a mouse makes things a little easier?
When you learn to fire a real gun, what do they teach you? Fire at center of mass. I'm one of those that believes that the PC FPS focus on headshots and bunny hopping is unrealistic cartoony stuff in games that supposedly aspire to realism.
Just ask yourself if you can tau jump do a 163'/37' turn, tau jump, do a 27'/47' turn and shoot a crossbow at a 4pxX4px head in 1920x1080.
Probably not, I don't play competitive every man for himself deathmatch FPS's and I rarely play team based ones. But here's the thing...could you do that in RL weighed down by that equipment? No. So why are headshot obsessed FPS fanboys playing unrealistic games the pinnacle of gamer culture. It makes no sense to me. Give me a game where if you add a grenade launcher to your M4, you become slower. Where if you carry extra ammo, your crosshairs move slower, where if you move a corpse...you drag it...slowly. Where you don't fire a rocket at your feet to reach the top of a building. Where you have an assault rifle, and pistol and a few grenades...maybe a scope or grenade launcher if you're wiling to slow down. Where if you're carrying the heavy machine gun or light anti-tank rocket launcher, you are even slower, and can carry even less equipment. Where you can't turn 180 degrees and get headshots flying around and leaping because one..that's not how you were supposedly trained...and secondly because you're carrying 80 pounds of stuff, wearing a heavy helmet and trying to stay in cover in the first place.
1) Tons of keys. Nothing even comes close
yes, but can you use them all effectively. No you can't, so half of them are basically out of the picture, unless you move one hand from home position or another from the mouse position....I'm a touch typist, and that just feels.....wrong..
2) when you move, you move at full speed, unlike with a stick where you 'start' moving first.
But in the real world, there's this thing called inertia...where you "start" moving first. You don't automatically go from 0 to 50 in 0 seconds. Analog movement is actually more realistic.
3) You can type with it. The only thing joysticks do worse than FPSs is typing.
Yes, but you aren't typing while you're hopping and shooting are you? And there's nothing stopping people from typing with keyboards on their consoles...the PS2 and PS3 have USB ports for a reason.
As another poster said, nobody can think of a single reason why an analog stick would be more useful for your foot moment. The obvious argument is that you can 'walk' with it, but I can walk with the keyboard by pressing shift, admittedly at one speed or another, I just question the usefulness of traveling at speeds in between. I
Realism, and the fact that you have mor
A bunch of us have been playing TES games just fine with a keyboard and mouse too. And there are many millions of people world-wide playing WoW and other games just fine with keyboard and mouse.
If you recall, I didn't say one thing about mice, only keyboards. and in fact I said one of the ways of having analog movement and aiming was using an analog stick for movement, but a mouse for aiming.
And yes, there are plenty of people who use keyboards to move in MMO's, but movement in those games is really secondary, you're often standing in one place. and not moving while attacking since it's all numbers. So the keyboard suffices. but any FFXI player out there can tell you they could always spot the players of the PC version, because they moved like crap. I want to be able to move, crawl, and run in any direction without holding a modifier key or even MULTIPLE modifier keysand cramping my hand...an analog stick does that for movement. Much more confortable.
For my sake, there were places in Oblivion where I wouldn't have wanted digital movement.
MOVEMENT with a keyboard and mouse is a problem, or that
My response was soley about movement, not aiming. You don't move with the mouse, you AIM with the mouse. Unless of course you're one of those crazy "hunter mouse" people. I like mice just fine, thank you very much, they're great for fine pointing...but in a realistic game, you shouldn't be able to fine point and headshot every time. Because in real life, you're taught to aim at center of mass.
everyone disagreeing with your delusions is only playing FPS frag-fests, or that
look at the responses, people responding are talking about FPS's and headshots!