I have constantly posted in these various PC vs. Console threads that the mainstream of gaming has been with the consoles for a couple decades and that PC gaming is a niche market, but these hardcore FPS/RTS folks don't listen. The ONLY time PC gaming has been the center of the gaming mainstream was just after the crash of 84 when the C-64 was the preferred "electronic gaming device". That lasted till about 87 when the NES took over and brought consoles back from the dead.
I wouldn't say console gamers are less intelligent. That's kind of condescending, don't you think. Plenty of deep console games out there. Guess you've never played Carnage Heart or Final Fantasy Tactics. Plenty of mature, dedicated players play consoles. I've invested a large number of hours in my games, some of these console RPG's are looooooong.
You can play X-com and Civ II on a PSone, though of those 2, only X-com supports the PSone mouse. In fact X-com was one of the earliest Playstation games released being one of the "big plastic box" titles.
As a console gamer it's always seem to me that many PC gamers are more concerned with the technology of the games, ie frame rates, resolutions, etc, than the actual games themselves. Can you explain this to me? When I play a game, I just want to have fun. It doesn't matter to me if the games graphics aren't perfect as long as it's fun.
Also it one doesn't need a computer to read Slashdot, there's WebTV/MSNTV (Have one of these myself), AOLTV, the Dreamcast Web Browser, the Saturn NetLink, and a bunch of other forgotten set top boxes. Musn't forget the Playstation 2 Linux kit either.(Got one of these too.)
Take one Playstation 2, install one Linux kit. Abiword for homework and flyers. Kmail for mail. Links-graphic and dillo for web browsing, kpaint and gimp for graphics.
The 640x448 NTSC display my PS2 Linux kit uses is usable for surfing, e-mail, etc. It's a better resolution than a WebTV/MSNTV generates.
You might be able to interface a Sony PDA with the Playstation 2 Linux kit. I don't think anyones tried it yet.
These Linux kits are the hobbyist kits that turn any PS2 into a Linux workstation. Their primary purpose is amateur game development, but you can do other things with them.
The hardware consists of an ethernet only version of the Network adapter, 40GB HD, monitor cable (for SOG monitor, though you don't have to have one. you can use the kit with a TV), PS2 branded USB keyboard and mouse.
It's a Red Hat based distro, 2.2.1 kernel (with some backported USB support), though you can download a 2.2.21 kernel for the kit. It really is a typical (older) distro, you've got your console, X, KDE, Gnome, Windowmaker, GIMP, plus some PS2 specific stuff for game development. You can also attempt to compile standard Linux apps, which may or may not work. Mozilla doesn't work, but Abiword, Gaim, and Xchat do.
For more info, visit http://playstation2-linux.com
Oh yes, don't let a woman newbie play a game with a one button per limb control scheme. They pick that up faster than traditional Street Fighter style controls. People say women don't get video games, perhaps they don't play all genre's, but they DO get Tekken.
In the future there will be two kinds of computers .
1. Sealed boxes for home use you hook up to a TV (which will actually be a high resolution HDTV). The box might have a Sony, Microsoft or Nintendo label on it, but it will pretty much be a spiritual successor to machines like the C64. You'll be able to play games, use the net, and write term papers on it.
2.Boxes you can open for business use (and for use by the hardcore geek crowd).
They don't really need them, because consoles are designed from the ground up to be multimedia powerhouses. Their architecture's make them more efficient, more gaming bang for the buck. Check out the articles about the Playstation 2 on ars technica for details.
Buy a Playstation 2 and a Playstation 2 Linux kit and really stick it to the "Man from Redmond":-)
I love my Black Box of Wonder. I have seen the future and it is convergence.
Oh yes, I believe the "true home computer" is destined to return in the form of a more versatile video game console. It's sort of already here, in the form of the Playstation 2 Linux kit. I've got my Abiword, Kmail, links-graphic for web browsing, gaim for IM, xchat for IRC.
You're right about why Microsoft is wanting to break into the living room, it's also why they bought WebTV a few years back. Discovered that there was a whole bunch of people not paying the "microsoft tax" because they didn't own computers and didn't really need or want to.
Bill Gates: "Hey, there's people surfing the web with those WebTV set top boxes without using my software and making me money, that is not supposed to happen. WebTV Networks needs money so I'll make them an offer they can't refuse. Ballmer, to the money bin."
Bill Gates:"Hey, there's people playing games on machines that are not computers. We need to make money off these people. Let's make a deal with Sega, thereby learning more about the console business so we can make our own console. Sega is stupid enough to fall for it."
PC's suck when it comes to playing anything but grognard sims, strategy games etc. If you want to play platform games, fighting games, japanese style RPG's and good racing games you've gotta get a console. Besides consoles have the most powerful input devices anyway. I can't imagine trying to play a character based platformer on a PC it must be a nightmare.:-)
Pssst FPS's on consoles are optimized to use the gamepads so they play just fine. Some of them you can play with a mouse + keyboard if you want. I thinl the best compromise is using the directional pad of a gamepad for movement with a mouse for aiming, as in Alien Resurrection and Quake II for the PSone.
Where did you get the idea that console gamers are all children. Ever since the original Playstation came out the average age of console gamers has been rising. Did you know that the average age of a Playstation 2 owner is 25? The consoles aren't just for kiddies anymore, especially with the games coming out nowadays for them.
Need a keyboard and a mouse? The PS2 has USB ports for a reason. Heck, most consoles since the Genesis have had mice available for them. Console games are DESIGNED to use gamepads so they work quite well with them. Wouldn't want to play a game like Gauntlet Dark Legacy, ICO or Grand Theft Auto 3 with a keyboard.
You watch television don't you? Then why do you need to play games on a high res monitor. Really, does the high res make the gameplay better or is it just for eye candy. Are you really interested in gameplay or are you only concerened with bragging rights over frame rates and resolutions.
Head trackers? 3D displays? That proves it. You're more interested in the technology of games rather than the games themselves.
Apparently you haven't been paying attention to the actual games one can play on consoles, there's more than simplistic arcade games. One of the games, I own Baldur's Gate: Dark Alliance for the PS2, was produced by Black Isle. Most smart developers do both PC and console games, it's in their best interests to do so. And as for MMORPG's, perhaps you've heard about the Everquest Online Adventures for PS2, it's in beta test right now. comes out early next year, as does Final Fantasy XI which is also an MMORPG. PC's don't have a lock on this genre anymore.
Technically, a console is also a Turing machine, though I think you mean a Von Neumann machine. They have microprocessors, memory, storage, IO, everything that makes a computer a computer. In fact, Sony calls the PS2 a Computer Entertainment System. Buy yourself one of the Playstation 2 Linux kits and you can write code and develop games on it, as well as post to Slashdot.:-)
If you wanted to play that Godzilla game on the Dreamcast, there's a Gamecube Godzilla game you might be interested in as well as War of the Monsters for the PS2.
The most common home pc's at the time were the apple, commoodore and Radio Shack machines. Don't think the early versions had joysticks. Comoodore PET's and CBM's didn't. But the early adopters of those machines tended to prefer "grognard" games, since so many of them were already tabletop wargamers and rpg players.
I don't understand how asdw can be intuitive for movement? They aren't in cross pattern. Why not use the arrow keys or the numerical keypad. Here's how I play one of my favorit fps's the PSone version of Quake II: in the left hand a controller using cross-key pad for movement. L1 and L2 are used for weapon switching. In the right hand, the PSone mouse used for aiming/mouselook. The left mouse button is Fire and the right mouse button is jump. It's got the best of both worlds, intuitive joypad for movement and accurate mouselook for aiming. Try it out sometime.
I own a copy of Goldneye, one of the few N64 games I own. I think it's a well designed game but the N64 controller is no Dual Shock and the N 64 has no mouse. All the time I played it I think, I wish I could play this with a dual shock. Or better yet the Dual Shock + mouse combo that some PSone games used.I found the best compromise was movement on the digital pad and use the analog stick for aiming.
Plenty, PC ports mostly. This is off the top of my head here and shouldn't be considered a complete list. SNES: SimCity 2000, Eye of the Beholder, Might and Magic III, Mario Paint.
PSone: C&C, C&C Red Alert, C&C Retaliation, Dune 2000, Warzone 2100, Myst, Riven, Broken Sword, Broken Sword II, X-Com, Simcity 2000, Quake II, Alien Resurrection, Doom II, Monopoly, RPG Maker
PS2: Half-life, Unreal Tournament, Deus Ex. amd the Linux kit, of course.:-) Myst III probably supports it and I'm thinking a couple other games do too.
And now I will use my mouse connected to my PS2 to click "submit".
There's more to gaming than first person shooters. But wouldn't it be more intuitive to control movement with a joypad and use mouselook for aiming? That's one of the control schemes for the PSone version of Quake II. The real reason you use a keyboard for input is that the first personal computers did not have joysticks available, so the keyboards had to be used, even for action games. That's also the reason for all the sims, strategy games and RPG's on the early personal computers. Those sorts of games without fast action can be keyboard controlled.
You've never played Persona, Carnage Heart, or Final Fantasy Tactics, have you? I think that PC gamers who say console games are for kiddys simply have not played enough console games to know any better. Which Final Fantasy games have you played, exactly?
My first console RPG was a port of Might and Magic: Secret of the Inner Sanctum, and there were NES ports of the Bards Tale, Wizardry, and three of the Ultima's. There was also a SNES port of Eye of the Beholder with mouse support no less.
As for console games being dumbed down, there sure seem to be a lot of T and M rated console games out there. Games that have very obviously been designed with older players in mind.
Slashdot Mirror
I've used my TV to check out /. for a looong time first with my WebTV/MSNTV and now with my Playstation 2 Linux kit. :-)
I have constantly posted in these various PC vs. Console threads that the mainstream of gaming has been with the consoles for a couple decades and that PC gaming is a niche market, but these hardcore FPS/RTS folks don't listen. The ONLY time PC gaming has been the center of the gaming mainstream was just after the crash of 84 when the C-64 was the preferred "electronic gaming device". That lasted till about 87 when the NES took over and brought consoles back from the dead.
I wouldn't say console gamers are less intelligent. That's kind of condescending, don't you think. Plenty of deep console games out there. Guess you've never played Carnage Heart or Final Fantasy Tactics. Plenty of mature, dedicated players play consoles. I've invested a large number of hours in my games, some of these console RPG's are looooooong.
You can play X-com and Civ II on a PSone, though of those 2, only X-com supports the PSone mouse. In fact X-com was one of the earliest Playstation games released being one of the "big plastic box" titles.
Most RTS's ported to the PSone did support the mouse, though I don't think many people owned one. Too bad, works great.
As a console gamer it's always seem to me that many PC gamers are more concerned with the technology of the games, ie frame rates, resolutions, etc, than the actual games themselves. Can you explain this to me? When I play a game, I just want to have fun. It doesn't matter to me if the games graphics aren't perfect as long as it's fun. Also it one doesn't need a computer to read Slashdot, there's WebTV/MSNTV (Have one of these myself), AOLTV, the Dreamcast Web Browser, the Saturn NetLink, and a bunch of other forgotten set top boxes. Musn't forget the Playstation 2 Linux kit either.(Got one of these too.)
Take one Playstation 2, install one Linux kit. Abiword for homework and flyers. Kmail for mail. Links-graphic and dillo for web browsing, kpaint and gimp for graphics.
Maybe some of them are playing games AND using Linux on their console. :-)
The 640x448 NTSC display my PS2 Linux kit uses is usable for surfing, e-mail, etc. It's a better resolution than a WebTV/MSNTV generates. You might be able to interface a Sony PDA with the Playstation 2 Linux kit. I don't think anyones tried it yet.
These Linux kits are the hobbyist kits that turn any PS2 into a Linux workstation. Their primary purpose is amateur game development, but you can do other things with them. The hardware consists of an ethernet only version of the Network adapter, 40GB HD, monitor cable (for SOG monitor, though you don't have to have one. you can use the kit with a TV), PS2 branded USB keyboard and mouse. It's a Red Hat based distro, 2.2.1 kernel (with some backported USB support), though you can download a 2.2.21 kernel for the kit. It really is a typical (older) distro, you've got your console, X, KDE, Gnome, Windowmaker, GIMP, plus some PS2 specific stuff for game development. You can also attempt to compile standard Linux apps, which may or may not work. Mozilla doesn't work, but Abiword, Gaim, and Xchat do. For more info, visit http://playstation2-linux.com
Oh yes, don't let a woman newbie play a game with a one button per limb control scheme. They pick that up faster than traditional Street Fighter style controls. People say women don't get video games, perhaps they don't play all genre's, but they DO get Tekken.
Dillo's a nice little browser, isn't it. I used it quite a bit but switched to links-graphic. Mozilla simply will not compile correctly on my PS2.
In the future there will be two kinds of computers . 1. Sealed boxes for home use you hook up to a TV (which will actually be a high resolution HDTV). The box might have a Sony, Microsoft or Nintendo label on it, but it will pretty much be a spiritual successor to machines like the C64. You'll be able to play games, use the net, and write term papers on it. 2.Boxes you can open for business use (and for use by the hardcore geek crowd).
They don't really need them, because consoles are designed from the ground up to be multimedia powerhouses. Their architecture's make them more efficient, more gaming bang for the buck. Check out the articles about the Playstation 2 on ars technica for details.
Buy a Playstation 2 and a Playstation 2 Linux kit and really stick it to the "Man from Redmond" :-)
I love my Black Box of Wonder. I have seen the future and it is convergence.
You could get a PS2 and play Half life on it, and buy an N64 and play Starcraft on it. Go console now, my friend. :-)
Oh yes, I believe the "true home computer" is destined to return in the form of a more versatile video game console. It's sort of already here, in the form of the Playstation 2 Linux kit. I've got my Abiword, Kmail, links-graphic for web browsing, gaim for IM, xchat for IRC. You're right about why Microsoft is wanting to break into the living room, it's also why they bought WebTV a few years back. Discovered that there was a whole bunch of people not paying the "microsoft tax" because they didn't own computers and didn't really need or want to. Bill Gates: "Hey, there's people surfing the web with those WebTV set top boxes without using my software and making me money, that is not supposed to happen. WebTV Networks needs money so I'll make them an offer they can't refuse. Ballmer, to the money bin." Bill Gates:"Hey, there's people playing games on machines that are not computers. We need to make money off these people. Let's make a deal with Sega, thereby learning more about the console business so we can make our own console. Sega is stupid enough to fall for it."
PC's suck when it comes to playing anything but grognard sims, strategy games etc. If you want to play platform games, fighting games, japanese style RPG's and good racing games you've gotta get a console. Besides consoles have the most powerful input devices anyway. I can't imagine trying to play a character based platformer on a PC it must be a nightmare. :-)
Pssst FPS's on consoles are optimized to use the gamepads so they play just fine. Some of them you can play with a mouse + keyboard if you want. I thinl the best compromise is using the directional pad of a gamepad for movement with a mouse for aiming, as in Alien Resurrection and Quake II for the PSone.
Where did you get the idea that console gamers are all children. Ever since the original Playstation came out the average age of console gamers has been rising. Did you know that the average age of a Playstation 2 owner is 25? The consoles aren't just for kiddies anymore, especially with the games coming out nowadays for them. Need a keyboard and a mouse? The PS2 has USB ports for a reason. Heck, most consoles since the Genesis have had mice available for them. Console games are DESIGNED to use gamepads so they work quite well with them. Wouldn't want to play a game like Gauntlet Dark Legacy, ICO or Grand Theft Auto 3 with a keyboard. You watch television don't you? Then why do you need to play games on a high res monitor. Really, does the high res make the gameplay better or is it just for eye candy. Are you really interested in gameplay or are you only concerened with bragging rights over frame rates and resolutions. Head trackers? 3D displays? That proves it. You're more interested in the technology of games rather than the games themselves. Apparently you haven't been paying attention to the actual games one can play on consoles, there's more than simplistic arcade games. One of the games, I own Baldur's Gate: Dark Alliance for the PS2, was produced by Black Isle. Most smart developers do both PC and console games, it's in their best interests to do so. And as for MMORPG's, perhaps you've heard about the Everquest Online Adventures for PS2, it's in beta test right now. comes out early next year, as does Final Fantasy XI which is also an MMORPG. PC's don't have a lock on this genre anymore. Technically, a console is also a Turing machine, though I think you mean a Von Neumann machine. They have microprocessors, memory, storage, IO, everything that makes a computer a computer. In fact, Sony calls the PS2 a Computer Entertainment System. Buy yourself one of the Playstation 2 Linux kits and you can write code and develop games on it, as well as post to Slashdot. :-)
If you wanted to play that Godzilla game on the Dreamcast, there's a Gamecube Godzilla game you might be interested in as well as War of the Monsters for the PS2.
Let me guess, you play only RTS's, FPS's and sims. Plenty of good games for the consoles, I'm talking 5 star quality here.
The most common home pc's at the time were the apple, commoodore and Radio Shack machines. Don't think the early versions had joysticks. Comoodore PET's and CBM's didn't. But the early adopters of those machines tended to prefer "grognard" games, since so many of them were already tabletop wargamers and rpg players. I don't understand how asdw can be intuitive for movement? They aren't in cross pattern. Why not use the arrow keys or the numerical keypad. Here's how I play one of my favorit fps's the PSone version of Quake II: in the left hand a controller using cross-key pad for movement. L1 and L2 are used for weapon switching. In the right hand, the PSone mouse used for aiming/mouselook. The left mouse button is Fire and the right mouse button is jump. It's got the best of both worlds, intuitive joypad for movement and accurate mouselook for aiming. Try it out sometime.
I own a copy of Goldneye, one of the few N64 games I own. I think it's a well designed game but the N64 controller is no Dual Shock and the N 64 has no mouse. All the time I played it I think, I wish I could play this with a dual shock. Or better yet the Dual Shock + mouse combo that some PSone games used.I found the best compromise was movement on the digital pad and use the analog stick for aiming.
Plenty, PC ports mostly. This is off the top of my head here and shouldn't be considered a complete list. SNES: SimCity 2000, Eye of the Beholder, Might and Magic III, Mario Paint. PSone: C&C, C&C Red Alert, C&C Retaliation, Dune 2000, Warzone 2100, Myst, Riven, Broken Sword, Broken Sword II, X-Com, Simcity 2000, Quake II, Alien Resurrection, Doom II, Monopoly, RPG Maker PS2: Half-life, Unreal Tournament, Deus Ex. amd the Linux kit, of course. :-) Myst III probably supports it and I'm thinking a couple other games do too.
And now I will use my mouse connected to my PS2 to click "submit".
There's more to gaming than first person shooters. But wouldn't it be more intuitive to control movement with a joypad and use mouselook for aiming? That's one of the control schemes for the PSone version of Quake II. The real reason you use a keyboard for input is that the first personal computers did not have joysticks available, so the keyboards had to be used, even for action games. That's also the reason for all the sims, strategy games and RPG's on the early personal computers. Those sorts of games without fast action can be keyboard controlled.
You've never played Persona, Carnage Heart, or Final Fantasy Tactics, have you? I think that PC gamers who say console games are for kiddys simply have not played enough console games to know any better. Which Final Fantasy games have you played, exactly? My first console RPG was a port of Might and Magic: Secret of the Inner Sanctum, and there were NES ports of the Bards Tale, Wizardry, and three of the Ultima's. There was also a SNES port of Eye of the Beholder with mouse support no less. As for console games being dumbed down, there sure seem to be a lot of T and M rated console games out there. Games that have very obviously been designed with older players in mind.