Yes, I read TFA. Been there, got the "Easy Does It" and "Sh!t Creek/up-and-back" t-shirts...
Ninety five percent of all US "Treatment Centers" are really 12-step indoctrination centers, and websearches bring up vast numbers of 12-step glurge sites by anonymous members. Virually everyone you ask will say "I don't know anything about it but AA is where you go if you have a drinking problem." Here are the needles in the haystack for anyone who is considering ot has had any 12-step involvement:
If you're not familiar with 12-step programs, here is the "On-Line Gamers Anonymous" version of "How It Work", taken straight from the first three pages of chapter 5, "How It Works" of AA's "Big Book", "Alcoholics Anonymous"
With organizations such as http://www.ncadd.org/ and judges ordering defendants to AA without revealing their own AA memberships, most other "high demand" groups would give up the equivalent of personal body parts to have the same PR and good image as AA. But at least the other cults, er, "high-demand coercive groups" have at least some negative images in the minds of the public.
One more link: http://religiousmovements.lib.virginia.edu/ Click on "Religious Group Profiles" for a list of just about every group you've probably heard of. It even lists multilevel marketing schemes under "Para-Religious Movements."
Excessive drinking or other activity done to excess can create substantial problems in one's life, but 12-step groups are NOT the answer.
If that can be done as inexpensively as SpaceshipOne, then all sorts of space-related activities will benefit.
I agree, but it will take many times the fuel to get to orbital speed, and a much more robust vehicle to survive re-entry at near-orbital speeds. LEO is about Mach 18, and IIRC the max speed of this thing was given as Mach 3.5.
It will surely take many times the SpaceShipOne funds to get a manned (personned?) vehicle to orbit and back safely, but I have no doubt it will happen in only a few years, and I'm looking forward to it.
This is an exciting time to be alive.
Ditto's. I grew up watching the Gemini and Apollo programs. I was expecting there to be a lot more space travel by now, but I'll take what I can get.
Oh how I hate news reporting of science. If people think SpaceShipOne goes into orbit just as does NASA's Space Shuttle, it's no wonder, with science reporting like this. "But it said it right there on CNN's website..." For some people it would be easier to explain that "a hacker [they wouldn't understand the 'cracker' distinction] put that headline on CNN's website" rather than a major news organization being wrong.
An I overly cynical, or have I just been spending too much time around stupid people?
What makes the transfer rate limit for magnetic media 100 gigabit/inch?
That's not transfer rate, that's density. FWIW, 100 gigabits per square inch comes out to 316,227 magnetic domains per linear inch. Those are awfully small donuts.
Why this specific number? Does anyone know?
I presume it's related to the minimum size of a magnetic domain that can be changed (magnetized either direction) without changing the adjacent magnetic domains.
I recall a (private mailing list) post describing the use of instances of the cat-and-buttered-toast configuration as wheels for a levitated train. I recalled what the jazz musician said about his friend who was wrongly sentenced to prison: "That cat was railroaded."
Dunno if there's one in your area, I'll tell you where mine is, outside Atlanta in Gwinnet County, corner of Pleasant Hill and Club Drive. There's a "regular" Goodwill store where they have $20 computers and $10 monitors, and then there's the 99 cent store next to it where they put things that don't sell in a week or two, which is often the same computers and monitors. These vary from 386's to (I got this one) a 400MHz pentium 3 with usually 1 gig drive, but are fully functional (except for a likely borken WinOS installation).
Or, gut the electronics and you have a steel project case for two bucks (more recent cases are plastic with thin aluminum shielding inside) - the perfect thing to do with 486 and older machines.
Yes, this IS very unfriendly, but you can still do it if you throw money at it. Look on the newsgroup sci.electronics.design (through groups.google.com or better thru an actual newsreader and feed), there's a service that will mount a BGA chip on a PCB with all the connections brought out to pads so you can access all the pins, er, balls...
Telemareters going through the normal POTS/land-line telephone system are limited by a couple of things: the National (USA) Do-Not-Call list, and the fact that that such calls are (to some extent) tracable, so they often can be shut down.
This SPIM stuff will come from any IP address, and problably from zombie systems (such as your grandmother's Win98 system/DSL connection), much like spam does now.
Or that's what I assume. Is there something (significant and related) that I don't know?
that I've been using since 1999, and my "real" machine I use for CAD, coding and such runs at 977MHz.
But the real bargains are at the thrift store. There are older/slower Pentiums at various speeds for two dollars each. These are usually 100-200MHz, but that's fine for a digitizing scope display (okay, the box and monitor are bulky). I did get a 400MHz machine for two bucks, but it wants a bigger hard drive - these things usually come with 0.5 to 3 gig drives. Where can I find 40-80gig EIDE drives?
I recall when Don Lancaster wrote that an Apple ][ (1Mhz, 8-bit data bus 6502, 140kbyte floppy drive) had so much computing power, it should be illegal...
Below is the text of the site as it appears to me on dialup (!) before it forwards to a blank page (I can hit stop plenty fast enough here, even running Firefox...).
So, would this be a "pre-emptive" shashdotting?
Monday, September 20, 2004 That's It
Sorry folks.
Contact: ifsoyl at gmail.com
[Thank you for all of the emails. I took the site down pre-emptively. I have not yet heard from the owner of the card. I will try to let you know.
Let me be very clear that I never intended to hurt or embarrass anyone. While I understand that this is a somewhat naive position to maintain, you must understand that the scope of this project grew far beyond my expectations in a very short period of time.
That having been said, I would like to formally apologize to all of those who were unknowingly involved.
You mean one of those oval stickers with an abbreviation, presumably put on by the manufacturer for country of destination, like "GB" for Great Brittain? I'm in the USA and rarely see those on cars in the streets (maybe only on cars bought new in other countries, then imported to the US by the owner), ISTR seeing them mostly on Mercedes in James Bond movies...
The shuttle is not designed to withstand high-speed contact with SOLID objects, such as debris that might become airborne in a hurricane (or a tornado spawned by a hurricane), or debris on launch such as an external fuel tank insulating blanket.
Really. As if some person sitting at a desk gives a flying fuck where you're driving
They'll pay Jim Blow the Programmer to come up with^W^W^Wimplement algorithms that the PHB's come up with, that are gross measures of "bad driving" that the program runs on everyone's data, and the "worse driving" one does, the higher one's rates are raised.
Of course, it's not as if you don't have a choice, is it?
So far you have a choice, but as the tech to do it becomes cheaper and more available, governments will require these in vehicles "for the safety of the public"...
And the author of the article is just repeating what the spammer is telling him. Here, I just now actually RTFA:
The moniker [spammer] isn't one Cunningham, or anyone else in the business of bulk e-mail distribution, is fond of, understandably so, as he claims to send only legitimate e-mails. Bulk mailing, he said, has been lumped into the same category as illegal spam, which sports spoofed e-mail addresses or peddles in a variety of unsavory markets like porn and Internet scams, such as the Nigerian spam scam.
And the author clearly doesn't understand why this is so. The short version is: it's about consent (having permission from each recepient to send the email) and NOT content (it doesn't matter what you're sending if I didn't ask for it).
"The anti-spam community and media tends to like to blame us for all of it and if you notice, a lot of the time the so-called spam-related cases were, in fact, not spam related but scam related," Cunningham said in an e-mail interview. "Notice how they try to say spammers are the culprits? It's another scheme to put a bad image to bulk-mail marketing; I investigate and turn in every single bit of these types of e-mails and operations I come across, as I cannot stand them either."
One more quote from page 3:
Like many others, Cunningham takes the stand common among both legitimate bulk-mailers and illegal scammers alike: If you don't like it, delete it.
Thus the spammer is claiming that if the CONTENT of the spam is not illegal, then there's nothing wrong with spamming.
The author is no doubt correctly reporting what the spammer said, but even with quotes Ray Everett-Church and others (and missed giving good links such as http://cauce.org/, did not IMHO adequately represent anti-spam concerns.
Among other problems with implimenting a charge-per-email, I'm on several list which have hundreds of subscribers. At as little as a penny per email, sending a single message to one of these list would cost (either the sender or the list owner) SEVERAL DOLLARS. Discussion list traffic would go way down, and this is a Bad Thing.
But, it seems to me that an organized campaign to lobby and educate banks and other financial institutions ought to be able to eliminate mortgage spam.
You could fill out the foem with a bogus name "Joe Smith" and address, but with your real phone number and real (Disposable) email address. When you get a call asking for Mr. Smith, you can play along until you find out the company/bank name, and then call and explain to the bank how they are getting leads through unscrupulous means. Not that I expect this to do much real good...
Also, use some common sense about where you place an e-mail address.I have to use a DEA for every online purchase, but only once got spam from the account, and rarely get monthly e-mails from the company I bought from - and those opt out easily in my experiance.
So why should you have to opt-out of an email list you didn't opt into in the first place?
Conversly, when I used a DEA for Usenet posts, I got spam in a matter of minutes, but just turned off the account.
This is another useful feature of the Internet, dead because of spam. Those who want to legitimately contact you with a private response to your Usenet post now cannot do so.
spammers, legitimate bulk mailers and scammers alike
That sounds like someone is saying there are two kinds of spammers: one kine are "legitimate bulk emailers", and the other kind are scammers.
No doubt this is intentional confusion on the part of the spammer to claim legitimacy in sending unsolicited email, using the argument that he's advertising "legitimate products" instead of chain-letter scams, thus he is a "legitimate bulk emailer."
There is a lot of true legitimate bulk email, such as discussion mailing lists to which the recipients have subscribed themselves (the email equivalent of Usenet), but this has no relation to what the spammer is talking about.
The original idea of cable TV was to be commerical free. We pay for cable TV just like we do for our internet connection. I consider TV commericals SPAM. I did not ask for it, but likewise they advertisers always go, "We have to make profit."
Don't you see the basic difference between spammers and TV advertisers? (I thought cable TV was originally so rural people in valleys could receive TV signals, but that's veering OT). Advetisers in TV, radio, magazines, Web banner ads, all PAY to have their ads put up. Spammers STEAL bandwidth (not just from the receiver and his ISP, but from overseas open relays and spamming viruses on DSL-connected home Windoze machines) to deliver their crap to your inbox.
Spam is here to stay. It is NEVER going away.
This is scary and depressing stuff, I'm terribly afraid that I agree with you on that statement...the Junk Fax law didn't even stop junk faxes, though there's a lot fewer junk faxes than there might have been without the law.
We should battle SPAM the right way, not by banning it or attempting to. Suing the company for wrong advertisment (if they did.)
Good idea except spammer companies morph as fast as they can process the credit card charges. By the time you get who's behind the PO box they've moved on.
Ordering from the company then returning the product.
Return it to where? Presuming there's a place to return it to (and that they actually return your money), it might be illegal to buy something with the intention of returning it to harrass the seller. I agree with the sentiment, but the methods we (TINW) use should be on the high road.
Credit card charge backs are in the average range of $20 per charge back for internet companies. Imagine if 1,000 people ordered then cancelled their orders. $20,000 in extra fees for the company selling the junk.
Spam "companies" will just "go out of business" faster, get orders for the first day or two then close their accounts before most of the chargebacks, and move on, again spewing as a new company and a new merchant account. I can see where this could actually increase spam as spammers try to keep ahead of faster turnover of accounts.
I've seen most of these methods (SPAM-L mailing list and news.admin.net-abuse.email) tried against spammers with varying, usually only mild to moderate success. I don't want to discourage any and all (legal) tactics anyone can think of against spammers, but it's an uphill battle. Google on Benchmark Print Supply, a brick-and-mortar operation that spammed for YEARS despite legal injunctions specifically telling them to stop.
Slashdot Mirror
Yes, I read TFA. Been there, got the "Easy Does It" and "Sh!t Creek/up-and-back" t-shirts...
p icID=4.topic
t ml
Ninety five percent of all US "Treatment Centers" are really 12-step indoctrination centers, and websearches bring up vast numbers of 12-step glurge sites by anonymous members. Virually everyone you ask will say "I don't know anything about it but AA is where you go if you have a drinking problem." Here are the needles in the haystack for anyone who is considering ot has had any 12-step involvement:
http://www.aadeprogramming.com/
I'll write my book on it someday, but meanwhile read the books online on this site:
http://morerevealed.com/
http://www.orange-papers.org/
http://www.peele.net/
If you're not familiar with 12-step programs, here is the "On-Line Gamers Anonymous" version of "How It Work", taken straight from the first three pages of chapter 5, "How It Works" of AA's "Big Book", "Alcoholics Anonymous"
http://p198.ezboard.com/folgafrm31.showMessage?to
This is the original AA version (as originally PUBLISHED, not the "original manuscript"):
http://www.recovery.org/aa/bigbook/ww/chapter_5.h
With organizations such as http://www.ncadd.org/ and judges ordering defendants to AA without revealing their own AA memberships, most other "high demand" groups would give up the equivalent of personal body parts to have the same PR and good image as AA. But at least the other cults, er, "high-demand coercive groups" have at least some negative images in the minds of the public.
One more link:
http://religiousmovements.lib.virginia.edu/
Click on "Religious Group Profiles" for a list of just about every group you've probably heard of.
It even lists multilevel marketing schemes under "Para-Religious Movements."
Excessive drinking or other activity done to excess can create substantial problems in one's life, but 12-step groups are NOT the answer.
If that can be done as inexpensively as SpaceshipOne, then all sorts of space-related activities will benefit.
I agree, but it will take many times the fuel to get to orbital speed, and a much more robust vehicle to survive re-entry at near-orbital speeds. LEO is about Mach 18, and IIRC the max speed of this thing was given as Mach 3.5.
It will surely take many times the SpaceShipOne funds to get a manned (personned?) vehicle to orbit and back safely, but I have no doubt it will happen in only a few years, and I'm looking forward to it.
This is an exciting time to be alive.
Ditto's. I grew up watching the Gemini and Apollo programs. I was expecting there to be a lot more space travel by now, but I'll take what I can get.
For those who didn't see this headline on CNN earlier today, here's a screenshot:
http://musicalgearbox.com/cnnorbit.jpg
Oh how I hate news reporting of science. If people think SpaceShipOne goes into orbit just as does NASA's Space Shuttle, it's no wonder, with science reporting like this. "But it said it right there on CNN's website..." For some people it would be easier to explain that "a hacker [they wouldn't understand the 'cracker' distinction] put that headline on CNN's website" rather than a major news organization being wrong.
An I overly cynical, or have I just been spending too much time around stupid people?
What makes the transfer rate limit for magnetic media 100 gigabit/inch?
That's not transfer rate, that's density. FWIW, 100 gigabits per square inch comes out to 316,227 magnetic domains per linear inch. Those are awfully small donuts.
Why this specific number? Does anyone know?
I presume it's related to the minimum size of a magnetic domain that can be changed (magnetized either direction) without changing the adjacent magnetic domains.
... And here's the screenshot:
... someone please save us from bad science reporting...
http://musicalgearbox.com/cnnorbit.jpg
And after the Shuttle going "nearly 18 times the speed of light"
I got this popup, apparently from going to the patent link:
0 1
http://www.delphion.com/assets/homepage_unk4_pop?
This is the very first popup I've seen in about two months of surfing with Firefox:
Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.7) Gecko/20040707 Firefox/0.9.2
Okay, just to make this on topic:
http://mindspring.com/~benbradley/grat_cat.jpg
I recall a (private mailing list) post describing the use of instances of the cat-and-buttered-toast configuration as wheels for a levitated train. I recalled what the jazz musician said about his friend who was wrongly sentenced to prison: "That cat was railroaded."
Dunno if there's one in your area, I'll tell you where mine is, outside Atlanta in Gwinnet County, corner of Pleasant Hill and Club Drive. There's a "regular" Goodwill store where they have $20 computers and $10 monitors, and then there's the 99 cent store next to it where they put things that don't sell in a week or two, which is often the same computers and monitors. These vary from 386's to (I got this one) a 400MHz pentium 3 with usually 1 gig drive, but are fully functional (except for a likely borken WinOS installation).
Or, gut the electronics and you have a steel project case for two bucks (more recent cases are plastic with thin aluminum shielding inside) - the perfect thing to do with 486 and older machines.
Yes, this IS very unfriendly, but you can still do it if you throw money at it. Look on the newsgroup sci.electronics.design (through groups.google.com or better thru an actual newsreader and feed), there's a service that will mount a BGA chip on a PCB with all the connections brought out to pads so you can access all the pins, er, balls...
Telemareters going through the normal POTS/land-line telephone system are limited by a couple of things: the National (USA) Do-Not-Call list, and the fact that that such calls are (to some extent) tracable, so they often can be shut down.
This SPIM stuff will come from any IP address, and problably from zombie systems (such as your grandmother's Win98 system/DSL connection), much like spam does now.
Or that's what I assume. Is there something (significant and related) that I don't know?
I'll root for anyone* in any country who has a reasonable chance to go into outer space.
Godspeed, eh?
* except for Really Bad People, but even for them I might be in favor of a no-frills, no-suit, no-capsule spaceflight.
that I've been using since 1999, and my "real" machine I use for CAD, coding and such runs at 977MHz.
But the real bargains are at the thrift store. There are older/slower Pentiums at various speeds for two dollars each. These are usually 100-200MHz, but that's fine for a digitizing scope display (okay, the box and monitor are bulky). I did get a 400MHz machine for two bucks, but it wants a bigger hard drive - these things usually come with 0.5 to 3 gig drives. Where can I find 40-80gig EIDE drives?
I recall when Don Lancaster wrote that an Apple ][ (1Mhz, 8-bit data bus 6502, 140kbyte floppy drive) had so much computing power, it should be illegal...
Below is the text of the site as it appears to me on dialup (!) before it forwards to a blank page (I can hit stop plenty fast enough here, even running Firefox...).
So, would this be a "pre-emptive" shashdotting?
Monday, September 20, 2004
That's It
Sorry folks.
Contact: ifsoyl at gmail.com
[Thank you for all of the emails. I took the site down pre-emptively. I have not yet heard from the owner of the card. I will try to let you know.
Let me be very clear that I never intended to hurt or embarrass anyone. While I understand that this is a somewhat naive position to maintain, you must understand that the scope of this project grew far beyond my expectations in a very short period of time.
That having been said, I would like to formally apologize to all of those who were unknowingly involved.
Finally - yes, the celebrity was Vanilla Ice.]
posted by jordan | 7:11 PM
You mean one of those oval stickers with an abbreviation, presumably put on by the manufacturer for country of destination, like "GB" for Great Brittain? I'm in the USA and rarely see those on cars in the streets (maybe only on cars bought new in other countries, then imported to the US by the owner), ISTR seeing them mostly on Mercedes in James Bond movies...
Nan, er, nah, it just appears to be borken/slashdotted. Apparently, slashdotters have entered enough words to bring the database up to NaN words.
And I was looking forward to seeing how Fab and Cool compare to the currently popular young person's adjective, Awesome.
Washington, DC.
Not economically feasible. That's the Most Expensive hot air known on Earth.
The shuttle is not designed to withstand high-speed contact with SOLID objects, such as debris that might become airborne in a hurricane (or a tornado spawned by a hurricane), or debris on launch such as an external fuel tank insulating blanket.
Really. As if some person sitting at a desk gives a flying fuck where you're driving
They'll pay Jim Blow the Programmer to come up with^W^W^Wimplement algorithms that the PHB's come up with, that are gross measures of "bad driving" that the program runs on everyone's data, and the "worse driving" one does, the higher one's rates are raised.
Of course, it's not as if you don't have a choice, is it?
So far you have a choice, but as the tech to do it becomes cheaper and more available, governments will require these in vehicles "for the safety of the public"...
And the author of the article is just repeating what the spammer is telling him. Here, I just now actually RTFA:
The moniker [spammer] isn't one Cunningham, or anyone else in the business of bulk e-mail distribution, is fond of, understandably so, as he claims to send only legitimate e-mails. Bulk mailing, he said, has been lumped into the same category as illegal spam, which sports spoofed e-mail addresses or peddles in a variety of unsavory markets like porn and Internet scams, such as the Nigerian spam scam.
And the author clearly doesn't understand why this is so. The short version is: it's about consent (having permission from each recepient to send the email) and NOT content (it doesn't matter what you're sending if I didn't ask for it).
"The anti-spam community and media tends to like to blame us for all of it and if you notice, a lot of the time the so-called spam-related cases were, in fact, not spam related but scam related," Cunningham said in an e-mail interview. "Notice how they try to say spammers are the culprits? It's another scheme to put a bad image to bulk-mail marketing; I investigate and turn in every single bit of these types of e-mails and operations I come across, as I cannot stand them either."
One more quote from page 3:
Like many others, Cunningham takes the stand common among both legitimate bulk-mailers and illegal scammers alike: If you don't like it, delete it.
Thus the spammer is claiming that if the CONTENT of the spam is not illegal, then there's nothing wrong with spamming.
The author is no doubt correctly reporting what the spammer said, but even with quotes Ray Everett-Church and others (and missed giving good links such as http://cauce.org/, did not IMHO adequately represent anti-spam concerns.
Among other problems with implimenting a charge-per-email, I'm on several list which have hundreds of subscribers. At as little as a penny per email, sending a single message to one of these list would cost (either the sender or the list owner) SEVERAL DOLLARS. Discussion list traffic would go way down, and this is a Bad Thing.
But, it seems to me that an organized campaign to lobby and educate banks and other financial institutions ought to be able to eliminate mortgage spam.
You could fill out the foem with a bogus name "Joe Smith" and address, but with your real phone number and real (Disposable) email address. When you get a call asking for Mr. Smith, you can play along until you find out the company/bank name, and then call and explain to the bank how they are getting leads through unscrupulous means. Not that I expect this to do much real good...
Also, use some common sense about where you place an e-mail address.I have to use a DEA for every online purchase, but only once got spam from the account, and rarely get monthly e-mails from the company I bought from - and those opt out easily in my experiance.
So why should you have to opt-out of an email list you didn't opt into in the first place?
Conversly, when I used a DEA for Usenet posts, I got spam in a matter of minutes, but just turned off the account.
This is another useful feature of the Internet, dead because of spam. Those who want to legitimately contact you with a private response to your Usenet post now cannot do so.
spammers, legitimate bulk mailers and scammers alike
That sounds like someone is saying there are two kinds of spammers: one kine are "legitimate bulk emailers", and the other kind are scammers.
No doubt this is intentional confusion on the part of the spammer to claim legitimacy in sending unsolicited email, using the argument that he's advertising "legitimate products" instead of chain-letter scams, thus he is a "legitimate bulk emailer."
There is a lot of true legitimate bulk email, such as discussion mailing lists to which the recipients have subscribed themselves (the email equivalent of Usenet), but this has no relation to what the spammer is talking about.
Product Placement is just another form of PAID advertisement. Those making the movie accept money for prominent placement of products.
Spam is more like the projectionist splicing in a crude ad for some 'adlut prod uct' without the movie creator's permission or knowledge.
The original idea of cable TV was to be commerical free. We pay for cable TV just like we do for our internet connection. I consider TV commericals SPAM. I did not ask for it, but likewise they advertisers always go, "We have to make profit."
Don't you see the basic difference between spammers and TV advertisers? (I thought cable TV was originally so rural people in valleys could receive TV signals, but that's veering OT). Advetisers in TV, radio, magazines, Web banner ads, all PAY to have their ads put up. Spammers STEAL bandwidth (not just from the receiver and his ISP, but from overseas open relays and spamming viruses on DSL-connected home Windoze machines) to deliver their crap to your inbox.
Spam is here to stay. It is NEVER going away.
This is scary and depressing stuff, I'm terribly afraid that I agree with you on that statement...the Junk Fax law didn't even stop junk faxes, though there's a lot fewer junk faxes than there might have been without the law.
We should battle SPAM the right way, not by banning it or attempting to. Suing the company for wrong advertisment (if they did.)
Good idea except spammer companies morph as fast as they can process the credit card charges. By the time you get who's behind the PO box they've moved on.
Ordering from the company then returning the product.
Return it to where? Presuming there's a place to return it to (and that they actually return your money), it might be illegal to buy something with the intention of returning it to harrass the seller. I agree with the sentiment, but the methods we (TINW) use should be on the high road.
Credit card charge backs are in the average range of $20 per charge back for internet companies. Imagine if 1,000 people ordered then cancelled their orders. $20,000 in extra fees for the company selling the junk.
Spam "companies" will just "go out of business" faster, get orders for the first day or two then close their accounts before most of the chargebacks, and move on, again spewing as a new company and a new merchant account. I can see where this could actually increase spam as spammers try to keep ahead of faster turnover of accounts.
I've seen most of these methods (SPAM-L mailing list and news.admin.net-abuse.email) tried against spammers with varying, usually only mild to moderate success. I don't want to discourage any and all (legal) tactics anyone can think of against spammers, but it's an uphill battle. Google on Benchmark Print Supply, a brick-and-mortar operation that spammed for YEARS despite legal injunctions specifically telling them to stop.