Of course it's true. If that bothers you, buy a better spec'd computer. I think it's a great machine, with adequate performance, but a 10 year old knows there are faster machines out there.
BTW if you have a portable and attach a firewire drive to it, you get the same result. True. Not interested in portables anymore?
I know form-factor doesn't have the same appeal for all people, but it's a part of the mini, hence the smaller, slower hard drive. If that doesn't do it for you, buy something else. No problem:-)
Reminds me of all the comments I got on my Cube - which I amazingly still use. Noise is such a big deal, especially when you have to concentrate a lot.
I don't think many Americans appreciate what socialism in a modern context actually is, and instead sort of disapprove of what it isn't. The society YOU have today has nothing to do with the society WE have today. There are similarities, but it's the things that are different that affect us thoroughly. A halfway decent social security program does make a huge difference in how safe people feel, and goes a long way to prevent crimes of desperation. I also completely resent the implication that Europe teaches and implements a something for nothing policy, we know very well how much all our security costs and will never stop grumbling about it, but see what happens if someone decides it's time to stop it all, and let the market decide over our children's right to get radiation therapy if they get cancer. Do you seriously believe the protests are from those that DON'T pay for the system? Whether the BBC is a good broadcaster or not I'll leave in the middle, I do however have very clear opinions on how a state should care for its citizens. And a great preference for those states that seem to respect their citizens and actively try to focus not only on prosperity but also on well being, try to strike a balance between today's needs and tomorrow's needs, try in short to be responsible with the powers endowed upon them BY their citizens. If that constitutes socialism, fine by me, if it doesn't, who cares. It's not about political ideology, after all.
Where did you get that 3 minutes number? Most channels I watch have zero to 5 minutes per hour. Whenever I'm in the opportunity to enjoy US television, it's advertising every ten minutes. As for the 25% - which I wouldn't contest but is most certainly not true for every station (some would have more of it, I'm sure) a huge part of that is based on bought screenplays from european production houses, so don't be too smug. You have the answer to that, and it's called "SCALE". You have a much bigger market as we do. I also want to point out that most of our imported stuff is from the BBC... And btw, the same is absolutely not true in music and not entirely in film. There's a huge difference between the "market" which is everything for people who don't know anything about it and the real world of music and movies. IMO the main reason European music and film aren't popular in the US - unless the script is dumbed down and the cast nicely familiar, since so many of your movies are remakes... - is that the market for quality is smaller in the US than in Europe. And especially in music I'd think twice about it. Yes, you have Britney. You have some great musicians as well, sadly not very much appreciated. And when they visit Europe lots tend to stick around because surprise, they're appreciated... This is highly debatable - everything not quantifiable is - but very noticeable in a great many things that are defined by non Americans as quality.
Well, each to his own, but I prefer value. It's the whole tax debate, where the average european doesn't mind paying tax as long as he can count on a lot of value - and as long as he can bitch endlessly about how much HE has to pay, whereas in a perfect world it would be the OTHERS who'd have to pay... And the average american thinks we're crazy, stupid and brainwashed and meanwhile happily pays more for less, but at least NOT in taxes... The many protests when our governments try to do funny things with our "rights" (read: the things we pay for) should prove we're far from crazy or brainwashed, it's a two way thing. And imo the things they're trying to do with the remnants of your pension- and healthcare system should tell you something as well. Or not, of course, if you like your insurance expensive and exclusive:-p imo television is the perfect example of the differences between our ideas of society. Yours is "free" and well, you can keep it. (which is a very eurocentric view of course, each to his own...)
"I think that this idea, while widely propogated, is false."
Well yes, I agree, but only on a very broad basis: if you go from our primitive printer scenario all the way forward to being able to just tell your computer what you want and let the poor beast sort it out for himself. Have that sucker deal with its own programming and us just going "I don't care if it's complicated, print that paper now!" That would be very cool indeed.
But meanwhile we're stuck with a mouse and a keyboard on one side and the magic box on the other, only some stupid buttons and command line between the two... so yes, hiding options in a logical way (logical meaning a lot of things in this context) is the best we can do for now.
Unless we're talking about one trick ponies, but even my digital camera would have more than 50 buttons if some kind soul wouldn't have applied the 80/20 rule. The fact that he did it with good insight makes it a good, simple, fast camera, at least for me.
So, even most of our appliances aren't clever enough yet to not have to hide some options. Hell, even the iPod has options;-)
I hope I read you right? Note that I don't try to describe a magical formula that works every time, and I do agree with you that all GUI's should strive to make itself redundant. I really admire the iApps Apple built, that go a long way in doing just that, but while I use some of them to their limits, they're hardly professional. The only programs that really go as far as you describe are the things running in the background doing I don't know what, probably very useful things that thankfully I don't have to bother with...
Um, I kind of share your sentiment, but look at Cisco... If you like, we're not surfing the web, but passing through the Cisco cyberway. No problem so far...
"The most significant difference I see is a matter of depth. In Kprinter and the Epson tool all the options appear to be presented at the same depth, a handful of tabbed pages in one window, while the Windows and Canon tools have buttons on some pages that open additional windows. The latter have most the same options as the former, they just hide more of them."
Your comment reminds me of an anecdote from a usability conference, where the GUI guy met with the programmer who said "look, here, I made it extra useable, all 45 options on one big screen, good hey? Very difficult to get them to fit together, had to make them a bit smaller".
If you don't see what's wrong with that picture, you may belong to the minority of people who actually can handle huge sets of data represented on one big screen. The rest of us can't.
Imagine someone like me in an air-traffic control center...
Hiding options, controversially, enhances usability - if done right of course, that goes without saying.
Getting the blend right between screens with the essential quick and dirty setup options, and the right options "hidden" behind logical "option-widgets" (for instance opening well laid out windows, tabs, drawers, sheets, whatever...) makes an app useable.
Of course, there's always the annoyance when something is done different from what you're used to, but good GUI's translate across platforms.
And I think the complaints about Kprinter are not of the "OS X/XP is better because that's what I'm used to" variety. That doesn't mean it's a bad app in every sense, it means it's more bewildering than most.
In the end, you don't set up your printer every day - I think I've never consciously set up a printer since OS X, but that's another thing, making interaction with apps redundant;-)
Don't agree. Switch usability and bugs. The whole point of building a useable app is to put usability in from the start and then take out the bugs. Putting bugs first won't get you a better app in the long run. Apple is a good example, their point releases fix the bugs but the apps are useable from day one. To get there, the priority list should be: 1. Usability 2. Testing 3. Bug fixing 4. New features
Tip for gui developers: Buy/steal a mac (refurb, mini, ebay) and download the free developer tools at the Apple developers website.
Now download the Human Interface Guidelines from Apple (as a reference, not a Bible).
And start building an interface with Interface Builder. It's the fastest prototyper around, barring paper and pencil (also a Great Idea, paper and pencil will help you out every time...)
You can make use of screenshots and HTML if you want to make a cross platform prototype.
Not that you'll be using Apple widgets in the final product, but you'll end up with a clear interface that you can use to discuss with developers, who can use the final version as a reference.
Also, having a GUI that's clutter-free and nicely lined out will give a good comparison to the thing that then will be built.
The big difference between you - and yours - and the average computer user (whatever OS) is that you know and care about parts. Your arguments are very stupid when looking at the whole of the bundle (OS X, decent hardware, good looks, very fair connectivity to whatever you want to plug into it, iLife,...), because whatever you cook up for yourself won't be anywhere close to a mac out of the box. That's not looking at individual parts or even the whole computer, which I bet will work perfectly for what you have in mind. Not the point. Most people aren't capable or willing to go through that and will order a Dell, in which case they won't get a better specs computer than a similar priced mac - unless they are one of the few mythical people who actually get a coupon reduction as advertised.
Oh and some people actually pay for their software. Do you have any idea what Adobe CS costs? Especially the superdeluxe edition that you'd need to come close to iLife (because they're totally different beasts)? If you care as much as your flaming indicates, go check out some macs in an Apple store and let them show you how the iApps work.
In short: 1) your hardware appreciation stands in the way of valuing a 'normal' computer experience. 2) the people I know that think like you are actually into the little challenges their computers offer in compatibility and such. This makes you a minority, most people hate that shit and will end up paying for things that don't work and cost them hours of frustration. 3) you don't seem to know the mac, which makes preaching against them a waste of (your) time 4) lighten up, they're only computers.
Yes, I know. I also know he likes it (but finds it slightly expensive).
The whole point was: an OS doesn't suck because it doesn't run on AMD and the mac doesn't suck because it doesn't have an AMD processor, regardless of the OS you're running.
And furthermore, stating that doesn't make you a dribbling fan-boy. At least not in my book.
More and more you read stuff like "people who use OS such and such are stupid, because it can't make coffee". I just pointed out that yes, it does make coffee, but of another brand and no, people aren't stupid because of their choice of OS or coffee.
Not irrelevant (well, of course, this discussion is not very relevant). I reacted on your statement that OS X doesn't run on your favorite processor, so Linux on X86 was the obvious answer. It's not, since lots of people love Power and its siblings, notably to run various flavors of Linux or BSD on them. Among them Linus, and I know very well he doesn't run OS X, I presumed you did as well.
Therefor, I think it's not fair to judge OS X on the hardware it runs on, or to judge the hardware because it doesn't use your favorite processor. Those are arguments that might make sense to you, but I bet there aren't many people who agree with you.
This is as far as discussing this goes, what you use and for what reason is of course your choice, but not agreeing with you has nothing to do with fan-boyism whatsoever.
It really really depends. I have no problem switching to windows for instance (not that I like it) and can set up work flows that work as good as windows allows me to.
I do think I'm more into GUI's than you are, and I've read OS X is a very particular brand of UNIX. There are only so many ways to do things with GUI's, but with the guts and grits of UNIX I'm sure there's lots of adapting to do. I am however way out of my debt here...
I agree with you wholeheartedly based on your comments. A mousepad with one button is hell, for instance. Although I'm very sure there are lots of non-designers who could benefit from switching as well, you don't seem to be one of them.
BUT do yourself a favor and install more ram. OS X needs it. It'll make a world of difference. It's no use griping about it. And it's not a lost investment even if you install Debian.
"I just do NOT need to have a widget telling me the weather, I've windows in my house, thanks. Neither I need a stock tracker, or a currency converter, and much less a calculator or a calendar or a fligh tracker or a world clock (Why on earth would 99.9% of the global population want to know what time is in other part of the world?) "
Um, some of us have lives that take us beyond those grimy windows? I LOVE the flight tracker, world clock and currency converter. To me these will be the three top most useful utilities. Having them in one environment instead of two browser windows and the calculator is not a trivial thing, however stupid that sounds.
Apart from that, I agree, there's a lot more to be enthusiastic about.
If you fail to see the difference between BSD and OS X from a consumer's standpoint, you're the real zealot.
Nobody here is saying OS X is the bestest there is for every purpose imaginable, period, especially not when compared to what's practically a sister OS, but the consumer space is very different from your average distro space.
You're just putting things out of context until they work for you. Which is btw the thing that's so tiring of zealots of any creed or color, whether technically inclined or not.
Initially, you'd be less productive (say one week, tops) and afterwards you'll probably be a lot more productive.
That's the top one reason I always keep hearing from multimedia professionals who've switched. What makes them more productive? Workflow management, which seems to be easier in OS X, better handling of files and more freedom and consistency in setting up the perfect work environment. This includes scanning, printing and all color-proofing issues.
For some things it's the difference between one click versus four. For some things it's simply features not available on Windows.
And today it's a lot easier to set keyboard shortcuts just the way you want them and adapt your workflow to your taste. So switching has for the most part become trivial.
I'd say coupled with the cross platform apps you use, there's at least not a compelling reason not to switch. If you personally would gain a lot by switching is another issue.
I know, a pretty wooly answer. In the end it's down to your preferences and way of working. Best talk with fellow designers, see what they think about it, and see if what they say applies to your situation.
DON'T ask the geeks here at/. they'll bog you down with arguments that have nothing to do with your reality;-)
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Of course it's true. If that bothers you, buy a better spec'd computer. I think it's a great machine, with adequate performance, but a 10 year old knows there are faster machines out there.
:-)
BTW if you have a portable and attach a firewire drive to it, you get the same result. True. Not interested in portables anymore?
I know form-factor doesn't have the same appeal for all people, but it's a part of the mini, hence the smaller, slower hard drive. If that doesn't do it for you, buy something else. No problem
Reminds me of all the comments I got on my Cube - which I amazingly still use. Noise is such a big deal, especially when you have to concentrate a lot.
I don't think many Americans appreciate what socialism in a modern context actually is, and instead sort of disapprove of what it isn't.
The society YOU have today has nothing to do with the society WE have today. There are similarities, but it's the things that are different that affect us thoroughly.
A halfway decent social security program does make a huge difference in how safe people feel, and goes a long way to prevent crimes of desperation.
I also completely resent the implication that Europe teaches and implements a something for nothing policy, we know very well how much all our security costs and will never stop grumbling about it, but see what happens if someone decides it's time to stop it all, and let the market decide over our children's right to get radiation therapy if they get cancer. Do you seriously believe the protests are from those that DON'T pay for the system?
Whether the BBC is a good broadcaster or not I'll leave in the middle, I do however have very clear opinions on how a state should care for its citizens. And a great preference for those states that seem to respect their citizens and actively try to focus not only on prosperity but also on well being, try to strike a balance between today's needs and tomorrow's needs, try in short to be responsible with the powers endowed upon them BY their citizens. If that constitutes socialism, fine by me, if it doesn't, who cares. It's not about political ideology, after all.
Where did you get that 3 minutes number? Most channels I watch have zero to 5 minutes per hour. Whenever I'm in the opportunity to enjoy US television, it's advertising every ten minutes.
As for the 25% - which I wouldn't contest but is most certainly not true for every station (some would have more of it, I'm sure) a huge part of that is based on bought screenplays from european production houses, so don't be too smug. You have the answer to that, and it's called "SCALE". You have a much bigger market as we do. I also want to point out that most of our imported stuff is from the BBC...
And btw, the same is absolutely not true in music and not entirely in film. There's a huge difference between the "market" which is everything for people who don't know anything about it and the real world of music and movies.
IMO the main reason European music and film aren't popular in the US - unless the script is dumbed down and the cast nicely familiar, since so many of your movies are remakes... - is that the market for quality is smaller in the US than in Europe. And especially in music I'd think twice about it. Yes, you have Britney. You have some great musicians as well, sadly not very much appreciated. And when they visit Europe lots tend to stick around because surprise, they're appreciated...
This is highly debatable - everything not quantifiable is - but very noticeable in a great many things that are defined by non Americans as quality.
Well, each to his own, but I prefer value. It's the whole tax debate, where the average european doesn't mind paying tax as long as he can count on a lot of value - and as long as he can bitch endlessly about how much HE has to pay, whereas in a perfect world it would be the OTHERS who'd have to pay... :-p imo television is the perfect example of the differences between our ideas of society. Yours is "free" and well, you can keep it. (which is a very eurocentric view of course, each to his own...)
And the average american thinks we're crazy, stupid and brainwashed and meanwhile happily pays more for less, but at least NOT in taxes...
The many protests when our governments try to do funny things with our "rights" (read: the things we pay for) should prove we're far from crazy or brainwashed, it's a two way thing. And imo the things they're trying to do with the remnants of your pension- and healthcare system should tell you something as well. Or not, of course, if you like your insurance expensive and exclusive
If you're going to interrupt a series every ten minutes, you shouldn't be surprised people look for ways to circumvent that.
I seriously don't understand why Americans even bother watching TV.
Watching Friends here in Europe takes half the time it takes you guys.
"I think that this idea, while widely propogated, is false."
;-)
Well yes, I agree, but only on a very broad basis: if you go from our primitive printer scenario all the way forward to being able to just tell your computer what you want and let the poor beast sort it out for himself. Have that sucker deal with its own programming and us just going "I don't care if it's complicated, print that paper now!" That would be very cool indeed.
But meanwhile we're stuck with a mouse and a keyboard on one side and the magic box on the other, only some stupid buttons and command line between the two... so yes, hiding options in a logical way (logical meaning a lot of things in this context) is the best we can do for now.
Unless we're talking about one trick ponies, but even my digital camera would have more than 50 buttons if some kind soul wouldn't have applied the 80/20 rule. The fact that he did it with good insight makes it a good, simple, fast camera, at least for me.
So, even most of our appliances aren't clever enough yet to not have to hide some options. Hell, even the iPod has options
I hope I read you right? Note that I don't try to describe a magical formula that works every time, and I do agree with you that all GUI's should strive to make itself redundant. I really admire the iApps Apple built, that go a long way in doing just that, but while I use some of them to their limits, they're hardly professional.
The only programs that really go as far as you describe are the things running in the background doing I don't know what, probably very useful things that thankfully I don't have to bother with...
Um, I kind of share your sentiment, but look at Cisco... If you like, we're not surfing the web, but passing through the Cisco cyberway. No problem so far...
"The most significant difference I see is a matter of depth. In Kprinter and the Epson tool all the options appear to be presented at the same depth, a handful of tabbed pages in one window, while the Windows and Canon tools have buttons on some pages that open additional windows. The latter have most the same options as the former, they just hide more of them."
;-)
Your comment reminds me of an anecdote from a usability conference, where the GUI guy met with the programmer who said "look, here, I made it extra useable, all 45 options on one big screen, good hey? Very difficult to get them to fit together, had to make them a bit smaller".
If you don't see what's wrong with that picture, you may belong to the minority of people who actually can handle huge sets of data represented on one big screen. The rest of us can't.
Imagine someone like me in an air-traffic control center...
Hiding options, controversially, enhances usability - if done right of course, that goes without saying.
Getting the blend right between screens with the essential quick and dirty setup options, and the right options "hidden" behind logical "option-widgets" (for instance opening well laid out windows, tabs, drawers, sheets, whatever...) makes an app useable.
Of course, there's always the annoyance when something is done different from what you're used to, but good GUI's translate across platforms.
And I think the complaints about Kprinter are not of the "OS X/XP is better because that's what I'm used to" variety. That doesn't mean it's a bad app in every sense, it means it's more bewildering than most.
In the end, you don't set up your printer every day - I think I've never consciously set up a printer since OS X, but that's another thing, making interaction with apps redundant
Don't agree. Switch usability and bugs. The whole point of building a useable app is to put usability in from the start and then take out the bugs. Putting bugs first won't get you a better app in the long run.
Apple is a good example, their point releases fix the bugs but the apps are useable from day one.
To get there, the priority list should be:
1. Usability
2. Testing
3. Bug fixing
4. New features
Tip for gui developers:
Buy/steal a mac (refurb, mini, ebay) and download the free developer tools at the Apple developers website.
Now download the Human Interface Guidelines from Apple (as a reference, not a Bible).
And start building an interface with Interface Builder. It's the fastest prototyper around, barring paper and pencil (also a Great Idea, paper and pencil will help you out every time...)
You can make use of screenshots and HTML if you want to make a cross platform prototype.
Not that you'll be using Apple widgets in the final product, but you'll end up with a clear interface that you can use to discuss with developers, who can use the final version as a reference.
Also, having a GUI that's clutter-free and nicely lined out will give a good comparison to the thing that then will be built.
Allow me to add to this: I'm glad for all future Yahoo! customers, but next time you want to tout a windows only service, post it under Windows, yes?
Show me the competition, I've been looking for more than a year now, and can't find ANY competitor, NONE.
Please, show me those music shops with about a million songs I can download on my mac.
I'm all for openness, and wouldn't mind some serious competition, it's healthy. But those fucks make each and every shop a windows only party.
To which I say Fuck you very much.
The big difference between you - and yours - and the average computer user (whatever OS) is that you know and care about parts. ...), because whatever you cook up for yourself won't be anywhere close to a mac out of the box. That's not looking at individual parts or even the whole computer, which I bet will work perfectly for what you have in mind. Not the point. Most people aren't capable or willing to go through that and will order a Dell, in which case they won't get a better specs computer than a similar priced mac - unless they are one of the few mythical people who actually get a coupon reduction as advertised.
Your arguments are very stupid when looking at the whole of the bundle (OS X, decent hardware, good looks, very fair connectivity to whatever you want to plug into it, iLife,
Oh and some people actually pay for their software. Do you have any idea what Adobe CS costs? Especially the superdeluxe edition that you'd need to come close to iLife (because they're totally different beasts)? If you care as much as your flaming indicates, go check out some macs in an Apple store and let them show you how the iApps work.
In short:
1) your hardware appreciation stands in the way of valuing a 'normal' computer experience.
2) the people I know that think like you are actually into the little challenges their computers offer in compatibility and such. This makes you a minority, most people hate that shit and will end up paying for things that don't work and cost them hours of frustration.
3) you don't seem to know the mac, which makes preaching against them a waste of (your) time
4) lighten up, they're only computers.
Good luck finding hills in Holland...
Yes, I know. I also know he likes it (but finds it slightly expensive).
The whole point was: an OS doesn't suck because it doesn't run on AMD and the mac doesn't suck because it doesn't have an AMD processor, regardless of the OS you're running.
And furthermore, stating that doesn't make you a dribbling fan-boy. At least not in my book.
More and more you read stuff like "people who use OS such and such are stupid, because it can't make coffee". I just pointed out that yes, it does make coffee, but of another brand and no, people aren't stupid because of their choice of OS or coffee.
Not irrelevant (well, of course, this discussion is not very relevant). I reacted on your statement that OS X doesn't run on your favorite processor, so Linux on X86 was the obvious answer. It's not, since lots of people love Power and its siblings, notably to run various flavors of Linux or BSD on them. Among them Linus, and I know very well he doesn't run OS X, I presumed you did as well.
Therefor, I think it's not fair to judge OS X on the hardware it runs on, or to judge the hardware because it doesn't use your favorite processor. Those are arguments that might make sense to you, but I bet there aren't many people who agree with you.
This is as far as discussing this goes, what you use and for what reason is of course your choice, but not agreeing with you has nothing to do with fan-boyism whatsoever.
It really really depends. I have no problem switching to windows for instance (not that I like it) and can set up work flows that work as good as windows allows me to.
I do think I'm more into GUI's than you are, and I've read OS X is a very particular brand of UNIX. There are only so many ways to do things with GUI's, but with the guts and grits of UNIX I'm sure there's lots of adapting to do. I am however way out of my debt here...
I agree with you wholeheartedly based on your comments. A mousepad with one button is hell, for instance. Although I'm very sure there are lots of non-designers who could benefit from switching as well, you don't seem to be one of them.
BUT do yourself a favor and install more ram. OS X needs it. It'll make a world of difference. It's no use griping about it. And it's not a lost investment even if you install Debian.
"I just do NOT need to have a widget telling me the weather, I've windows in my house, thanks. Neither I need a stock tracker, or a currency converter, and much less a calculator or a calendar or a fligh tracker or a world clock (Why on earth would 99.9% of the global population want to know what time is in other part of the world?) "
Um, some of us have lives that take us beyond those grimy windows? I LOVE the flight tracker, world clock and currency converter. To me these will be the three top most useful utilities. Having them in one environment instead of two browser windows and the calculator is not a trivial thing, however stupid that sounds.
Apart from that, I agree, there's a lot more to be enthusiastic about.
Beating a dead horse, but still... You have any idea which computer (and processor) Linus uses nowadays?
Hint: it's not AMD.
CONSUMER OS, not BSD distro's...
If you fail to see the difference between BSD and OS X from a consumer's standpoint, you're the real zealot.
Nobody here is saying OS X is the bestest there is for every purpose imaginable, period, especially not when compared to what's practically a sister OS, but the consumer space is very different from your average distro space.
You're just putting things out of context until they work for you. Which is btw the thing that's so tiring of zealots of any creed or color, whether technically inclined or not.
Initially, you'd be less productive (say one week, tops) and afterwards you'll probably be a lot more productive.
/. they'll bog you down with arguments that have nothing to do with your reality ;-)
That's the top one reason I always keep hearing from multimedia professionals who've switched. What makes them more productive? Workflow management, which seems to be easier in OS X, better handling of files and more freedom and consistency in setting up the perfect work environment. This includes scanning, printing and all color-proofing issues.
For some things it's the difference between one click versus four. For some things it's simply features not available on Windows.
And today it's a lot easier to set keyboard shortcuts just the way you want them and adapt your workflow to your taste. So switching has for the most part become trivial.
I'd say coupled with the cross platform apps you use, there's at least not a compelling reason not to switch. If you personally would gain a lot by switching is another issue.
I know, a pretty wooly answer. In the end it's down to your preferences and way of working. Best talk with fellow designers, see what they think about it, and see if what they say applies to your situation.
DON'T ask the geeks here at
So, on a windows article you're advocating Linux? And this is different how exactly from people advocating Apple? And so on and so forth...
Thurrot, is that you?