"So your delusional state is not consciously challenged because the fact that we are on our own disturbs you?"
I guess not. In my personal life experiences, I've been able to see God's hands and guidence several times. It's not just devil, but also God in the little details around us... some call that fate, others quantum chaos. I call that God's infinite wisdom. You may call me a delusional fool, if you will, not that I care...
"See, that is because the evidence became undeniable."
Probably. If I was born in the Middle-Ages I'd probably be just a blind worshipper, now however I'm in awe with the way God's plan reveals itself by means of subparticles interactions and fluctuations eventually leading to autoreproducing molecules to be the fundamental seeds of His creatures...
"Even the Catholic Church acknowledges evolution now."
Does it? What is TFA about then? Isn't ID the stupid Church response to Evolution and to real scientific method?
"it is logical that given enough time those same types of people will eventually accept that 'god' simply doesn't exist."
God doesn't exist in this existential plane, He just created it and the rules. He's outside it, you won't ever find Him hidding behind submesons or whatnot. Though He can certainly interfere in His creation. God's not really unlike a computer programmer creating a complex simulation of a virtual world and populating it with AI: can these these virtual beings ever be aware that they are nothing but dreams out of a creative mind?
"the problem with creationist logic, is that for a being to have created the universe, then that being must have itself been created. By whom?"
Does it? AFAIK, God is an eternal, forever being. And BTW, Stephen Hawking, in "A briefer history of time" considers what is the role of God in case of the Universe being there forever, i.e.: no beginning and no end. If the Universe has always been there and will always be there somehow, and the concept of beginning and ending is a human thing, and the Universe is more of a cyclic existential event, then I guess God has no place in it indeed.
But somehow, I doubt we'll ever know or be sure about what passed before the Big Bang and what will follow maximum entropy... and being a mammal as I am, I feel an urge for a father figure for the world I'm in...
"It's not about belief, it's about evidence. There is not a single shred of evidence supporting gods existence, but there is absolutely tons of evidence supporting evolution."
Biologic evolution doesn't preclude God, unless you're an ignorant literal Bible reader who thinks faith really can move literal mountains...
ask Multivax the pertinent question and prepare to be amazed.;)
"But quantum theory does make sense - its conclusions are surprising and counterintuitive, yes, but there's solid mathematics backing it up, and observations of all the counterintuitive phenomena."
Yes, I was making a funny. But for all of QM is worth, it doesn't preclude God. Nor needs Him anyway. Like I said to the chap bellow, if I rely on QM to explain if God exists or not, I'll likely get another question: is the cat dead or alive?...
"I don't worry too much about it."
Neither do I, though by force of being a geek, I always aim for the best I can do and that includes my moral dilemmas as well. So, even though not strictly following the 10 commitments, I still reach about 60% of it in the end...;)
Man, this conversation was cool but like you said I still remain more of a faithful servant of the Lord (or just delusional) more than a sceptic.
Still, I had to post something to prove that not all God believers are ignorant, technophobe, delusional people. Nor am I a supporter of this Intelligent Design stupidity passing as science. I'd rather support the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster...;)
"You'll forgive me if I trust modern, post-enlightenment science more than early-historical-era shepherds to tell me about how the world works - better track record, you see."
Post-enlightment science will make you believe in things like virtual particles coming out from nowhere, anomalous singularities in the space-time so as to fit non-observed events to mathematical formulaes that explain most scenarios and many other things which sound just about as miraculous as any of God's makings. After all, any sufficielly advanced technology is undistinguisheable from magic.
"And I don't care who God talked to - if the sole reason to think said talk happened is politically-useful writings, made after the fact and passed down for thousands of years by people with an interest in those writings being believed, which tell of events of a sort that certainly don't happen around me"
yes, I certainly have thought about such conspiracy theories before. But you gotta agree with me: such an weak and small group of sheppards such the Hebrews seem to have been tremendously successful ever since they associated with Abrahm's God, to the point of influencing the course of History in Europe, Americas and Middle-East. There got to be something more to that than just the will of some minorities...
"But I'm sure this discussion is pointless, as you'll have heard all of this before and haven't let it change you then either."
Actually, I find it refreshing anyway since I'm not a plain religious zealot: I certainly have doubts about an all-omniscient and almighty forever entity as, like most slashdotters, I'm a rational thinker nerd with a fondness for science and logic.
But then I look at the Universe at large and how weird and unbearable it is and I think to myself: "Hey! Believing in God makes just about as much sense as anything out of quantum theory and at least it puts a human face to Creation rather than just fuzzy chaos"... so, there.:)
"So, I'll see you in the afterlife - I in hell, and you in heaven. I give you my full permission to say "I told you so" as often as you like."
haha, why do you think you're going to Hell? Do you take other people's lifes? If no, you're just a regular sinner like most, prone to expiatin. Believing or not in God, He believes in you.;)
"yet are unable to provide any proof of god's existence yourselves?"
how come that be? Look around you. It's all side-effects of a Big-Bang eons ago. What caused that? I believe an almighty, omniscient, forever entity caused it, you don't. Who's right? Who are you to tell me otherwise when not even top physicists can be sure?...
If we rely on quantum physics to answer that fundamental question, we reach another question: is the cat dead or alive?
I take it you would feel a lot happier if God talked to scientists or kings or political leaders instead of farmers and other humble minorities...
Nice proof of God's non-existance: because he chose goddamn humble, weak jews to talk to. The God I'm talking about is the Creator of Everything, not the particular take from the Hebrews. You answer nothing, just spill arrogance and racism...
the real point is: do we need fast cars when in urban scapes you slow to a crawl? Perhaps a non-efficient, slow, non-polluting engine is better than one efficient, fast, polluting one when you're running at 18mph...
So what if humans are intelligent? We blow ourselves out of existence in a thermonuclear war and leave Earth to vermins able to survive and reinitiate the life cycle...
The purpose of God was teach his laws, not graduate Moses in 20th century physics. The Creation is a detail, a means to an end. God didn't tell lies to Moses, just simplified things. Because, frankly, they're irrelevant and, besides, He knows in time we'd be able figure it out because of the fruit Adam ate with Eve.
The bible says God created all living beings, but only more-or-less details the birth of Adam as coming out of clay. It doesn't say from what substance the other creatures came out of being, but we can assume it's not that different from Adam's, because, after all, we're all flesh.
"the bible is very vague on the details of the creation"
exactly. Don't forget God was talking to farmers of about 2000-4000 years ago. He had to simplify things a lot, like "you're made out of dust", instead of atoms. Or "let there be light!" to describe the star formation...
If God chose to talk to Einstein 80 years ago rather than Moses, the Creation would be a lot more detailed, full of special effects a la Hollywood. But also a lot less poetic...
"They're not listening seriously, it's all for background."
Well, I could've seen that coming ever since rock'n'roll sales surpassed jazz and classical music sales. No one conciously, seriously enjoys amplifier noise or hip-hop/techno drums, right? It's just ambient sounds for getting chicks or getting high...
people who seriously loves music are either music players or frustrated music players...
Actually, I think Sony couldn't get the well-known and successful DVD brand and had to come up with a new name. "Blu-Ray" doesn't sound much to consumers and HD-DVD sure also has a "blue ray"...
You can bet Sony would very much like to have the brand under their belts.
"'Jedi' is an organized religion in many countries."
Wow! Really?! I thought Scientology was the only religion based on pulp fiction...
Citizens from highly industrialized countries seem pretty f*cked up in their moral beliefs... I predict some time in the future we'll have canned religions sold at the nearest Wall-Mart: religions for gays, for cleptomaniacs, diet edition etc...
Slashdot Mirror
"we will never really know whether we have touched the bottom of the sea, or just another underwater plateau."
actually, it's turtles all the way down...
"So your delusional state is not consciously challenged because the fact that we are on our own disturbs you?"
I guess not. In my personal life experiences, I've been able to see God's hands and guidence several times. It's not just devil, but also God in the little details around us... some call that fate, others quantum chaos. I call that God's infinite wisdom. You may call me a delusional fool, if you will, not that I care...
"See, that is because the evidence became undeniable."
Probably. If I was born in the Middle-Ages I'd probably be just a blind worshipper, now however I'm in awe with the way God's plan reveals itself by means of subparticles interactions and fluctuations eventually leading to autoreproducing molecules to be the fundamental seeds of His creatures...
"Even the Catholic Church acknowledges evolution now."
Does it? What is TFA about then? Isn't ID the stupid Church response to Evolution and to real scientific method?
"it is logical that given enough time those same types of people will eventually accept that 'god' simply doesn't exist."
God doesn't exist in this existential plane, He just created it and the rules. He's outside it, you won't ever find Him hidding behind submesons or whatnot. Though He can certainly interfere in His creation. God's not really unlike a computer programmer creating a complex simulation of a virtual world and populating it with AI: can these these virtual beings ever be aware that they are nothing but dreams out of a creative mind?
"Knowledge of how things really work is irrelevant?"
That's the purpose of science, not moral laws. God knows we are well equipped to get there by ourselves.
"And, BTW, your creation myth was around a long time before Moses"
Good. Proves many people were infused by this primitive and instinctive knowledge of the beginning without even needing science.
"Bottom line...serious cocaine addicts are stuck with crack"
see here: http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=241131&cid=197 11441
but anyway:
"the problem with creationist logic, is that for a being to have created the universe, then that being must have itself been created. By whom?"
Does it? AFAIK, God is an eternal, forever being. And BTW, Stephen Hawking, in "A briefer history of time" considers what is the role of God in case of the Universe being there forever, i.e.: no beginning and no end. If the Universe has always been there and will always be there somehow, and the concept of beginning and ending is a human thing, and the Universe is more of a cyclic existential event, then I guess God has no place in it indeed.
But somehow, I doubt we'll ever know or be sure about what passed before the Big Bang and what will follow maximum entropy... and being a mammal as I am, I feel an urge for a father figure for the world I'm in...
"It's not about belief, it's about evidence. There is not a single shred of evidence supporting gods existence, but there is absolutely tons of evidence supporting evolution."
Biologic evolution doesn't preclude God, unless you're an ignorant literal Bible reader who thinks faith really can move literal mountains...
http://www.multivax.com/
;)
;)
;)
ask Multivax the pertinent question and prepare to be amazed.
"But quantum theory does make sense - its conclusions are surprising and counterintuitive, yes, but there's solid mathematics backing it up, and observations of all the counterintuitive phenomena."
Yes, I was making a funny. But for all of QM is worth, it doesn't preclude God. Nor needs Him anyway. Like I said to the chap bellow, if I rely on QM to explain if God exists or not, I'll likely get another question: is the cat dead or alive?...
"I don't worry too much about it."
Neither do I, though by force of being a geek, I always aim for the best I can do and that includes my moral dilemmas as well. So, even though not strictly following the 10 commitments, I still reach about 60% of it in the end...
Man, this conversation was cool but like you said I still remain more of a faithful servant of the Lord (or just delusional) more than a sceptic.
Still, I had to post something to prove that not all God believers are ignorant, technophobe, delusional people. Nor am I a supporter of this Intelligent Design stupidity passing as science. I'd rather support the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster...
"You'll forgive me if I trust modern, post-enlightenment science more than early-historical-era shepherds to tell me about how the world works - better track record, you see."
:)
;)
Post-enlightment science will make you believe in things like virtual particles coming out from nowhere, anomalous singularities in the space-time so as to fit non-observed events to mathematical formulaes that explain most scenarios and many other things which sound just about as miraculous as any of God's makings. After all, any sufficielly advanced technology is undistinguisheable from magic.
"And I don't care who God talked to - if the sole reason to think said talk happened is politically-useful writings, made after the fact and passed down for thousands of years by people with an interest in those writings being believed, which tell of events of a sort that certainly don't happen around me"
yes, I certainly have thought about such conspiracy theories before. But you gotta agree with me: such an weak and small group of sheppards such the Hebrews seem to have been tremendously successful ever since they associated with Abrahm's God, to the point of influencing the course of History in Europe, Americas and Middle-East. There got to be something more to that than just the will of some minorities...
"But I'm sure this discussion is pointless, as you'll have heard all of this before and haven't let it change you then either."
Actually, I find it refreshing anyway since I'm not a plain religious zealot: I certainly have doubts about an all-omniscient and almighty forever entity as, like most slashdotters, I'm a rational thinker nerd with a fondness for science and logic.
But then I look at the Universe at large and how weird and unbearable it is and I think to myself: "Hey! Believing in God makes just about as much sense as anything out of quantum theory and at least it puts a human face to Creation rather than just fuzzy chaos"... so, there.
"So, I'll see you in the afterlife - I in hell, and you in heaven. I give you my full permission to say "I told you so" as often as you like."
haha, why do you think you're going to Hell? Do you take other people's lifes? If no, you're just a regular sinner like most, prone to expiatin. Believing or not in God, He believes in you.
"yet are unable to provide any proof of god's existence yourselves?"
how come that be? Look around you. It's all side-effects of a Big-Bang eons ago. What caused that? I believe an almighty, omniscient, forever entity caused it, you don't. Who's right? Who are you to tell me otherwise when not even top physicists can be sure?...
If we rely on quantum physics to answer that fundamental question, we reach another question: is the cat dead or alive?
so, I'll keep my faith in God, thank you.
I take it you would feel a lot happier if God talked to scientists or kings or political leaders instead of farmers and other humble minorities...
Nice proof of God's non-existance: because he chose goddamn humble, weak jews to talk to. The God I'm talking about is the Creator of Everything, not the particular take from the Hebrews. You answer nothing, just spill arrogance and racism...
the real point is: do we need fast cars when in urban scapes you slow to a crawl? Perhaps a non-efficient, slow, non-polluting engine is better than one efficient, fast, polluting one when you're running at 18mph...
So what if humans are intelligent? We blow ourselves out of existence in a thermonuclear war and leave Earth to vermins able to survive and reinitiate the life cycle...
show me the proof of God's non-existence. Or existence for that matter...
The purpose of God was teach his laws, not graduate Moses in 20th century physics. The Creation is a detail, a means to an end. God didn't tell lies to Moses, just simplified things. Because, frankly, they're irrelevant and, besides, He knows in time we'd be able figure it out because of the fruit Adam ate with Eve.
We are all God creatures.
The bible says God created all living beings, but only more-or-less details the birth of Adam as coming out of clay. It doesn't say from what substance the other creatures came out of being, but we can assume it's not that different from Adam's, because, after all, we're all flesh.
"the bible is very vague on the details of the creation"
exactly. Don't forget God was talking to farmers of about 2000-4000 years ago. He had to simplify things a lot, like "you're made out of dust", instead of atoms. Or "let there be light!" to describe the star formation...
If God chose to talk to Einstein 80 years ago rather than Moses, the Creation would be a lot more detailed, full of special effects a la Hollywood. But also a lot less poetic...
"They're not listening seriously, it's all for background."
Well, I could've seen that coming ever since rock'n'roll sales surpassed jazz and classical music sales. No one conciously, seriously enjoys amplifier noise or hip-hop/techno drums, right? It's just ambient sounds for getting chicks or getting high...
people who seriously loves music are either music players or frustrated music players...
If a random patented virus epidemics outbursts, do we have to buy patented drugs?
This is the article with the most number of Insightful posts from ACs I've ever read on /.
bad times when people have to go anonymous to express thoughtful opinions...
sorry, it just made me laugh... :)
Company with trademark "Air" sues owner of trademark "Water"!
"the lead singer would spread peanut butter on his naked chest while cutting himself with a broken bottle on stage."
does he also make music eventually?
gawsh, people just love stupidity...
Actually, I think Sony couldn't get the well-known and successful DVD brand and had to come up with a new name. "Blu-Ray" doesn't sound much to consumers and HD-DVD sure also has a "blue ray"...
You can bet Sony would very much like to have the brand under their belts.
"While allowing the IETab Firefox extension is somewhat progressive"
How is that progressive when I'm on Linux running Firefox?! It requires IE, it's not "progressive" in any way at all.
"'Jedi' is an organized religion in many countries."
Wow! Really?! I thought Scientology was the only religion based on pulp fiction...
Citizens from highly industrialized countries seem pretty f*cked up in their moral beliefs... I predict some time in the future we'll have canned religions sold at the nearest Wall-Mart: religions for gays, for cleptomaniacs, diet edition etc...
"Microsoft's music strategy"
and I thought rap was a low point in Music History...