But Zealots don't think twice about what they don't know.
Two points to make here as well. It works in a strange reverse way too. I can't tell you how many times I've had a Windows using friend just assume that I'm running Windows because I'm a "computer guy". Usually they assume that I can run some program that they use (internet voice chat, file sharing, etc...) and then they express amazement when I tell them I don't run Windows. Again, I accept it because Linux still hasn't made a dent in the world of "Joe User". To them, if it has a mouse and windows and it's not a Mac, then it has to be MS Windows.
The other point is that for people like me, Windows is way too limited. I moved from the Mac to Windows back in 1994. Mostly because I graduated from college, no longer had access to Macs on campus and couldn't afford a Mac. So I got a 486 with DOS6.22/Windows 3.1 and slogged my way through that abyss. Eventually, I learned it and got the system to do what I needed at the time. Then I moved to Win95, then Win98 and NT4. Along the way I tried Linux out on and off meeting with frustration here and there. But at about RedHat 5.0, my knowledge grew to where I could use Linux for most of my needs AND RedHat had reached a level I could understand. Since then my knowledge has grown and so have my needs. Back in 1994 if you would have told me that I would have a system that would automatically rip CDs to compressed audio files and insert title/artist/album info into the file, add them to my exported network file system, build a nightly playlist and finally e-mail me the results including any errors, I would have thought you gave me way more credit than I deserve. But sometime between here and there the task became easier because my knowledge grew AND the tools to do these things became easier to use. (Keep in mind I'm a former Mac user nearly ten years. ie. not noted for being the most technically saavy users) The only contact I have with Windows these days is systems at work and the one laptop at home that work has provided. I am very familiar with what Windows XP Pro has to offer and it isn't enough for my needs today. So I have to add Cygwin to get what I need out of Windows. The situation is kind of the reverse for me. Windows is slowly getting more usable for automation purposes and coding (as a default feature if the OS, not by buying software), but I'm not sure it's really targeted at users like me.
So in the end, the main thing that really separates the OS a user will be comfortable with is what they actually use their systems to do. I've tried to help a few of my Windows using friends try Linux out. But they usually don't like computers as much as I do and wind up going back to Windows. They prefer "application space" and actually sitting down at their computers to do work. Whereas, I prefer somewhere between "application space" and "coder space" and make my computers sit down in front of me and do work.:)
Just wanted to note that I am adding you to my friends list since you are one of the rare Windows users who doesn't disparage Linux as sucking outright. Personally, I use Linux exclusively and it works very weel for all the things that I do with computers at home. But the point I think a lot of Linux folk should take away from your post is that the uses that a computer has will vary wildly from one user to another. I don't use any of the hardware or software you mention because a computer has a very different set of uses for me (home automation, coding, ripping CDs to Ogg Vorbis, file serving, web serving, mail serving, DNS, protocol tunneling [to listen to those Ogg Vorbis files being streamed to me at work encrypted in a secure shell tunnel], recipe database, internet access, playing games [the usual suspects: quake 3, Unreal tournament, and a few Windows games in W.I.N.E.], remote administration over tunneled X/ssh, firewalling and intrusion detection.). A lot of what I use my computers for is very different from what "Joe Average" does. I hate paper documents, so I have very little need for printing. I also don't usually use the latest and greatest hardware and instead opt for what is going to work with Linux. But, I do accept the fact that some people need these things and are better off with Windows for the time being. I would also say that Linux will always be playing driver catch up since many companies are not willing to open up info about their devices for fear of a competitor using that info to best them. This is something that will never change unless Linux really gets some kind of boost to get it on 70% of the "Joe User" systems out there. I'm happy enough living with the way Linux is right now because it doesn't impact my needs (other than the audio and video production world where I do use Windows for now). For the limited user that only does mail/web and word procesing, RedHat is there now. But as soon as you add peer-to-peer file sharing or any financial stuff, it gets a little harder to satisfy "Joe User" at this point.
A lot of the time, people on Slashdot complain about the passion that someone like RMS exhibits. Some even go so far as to call the passion a grudge. If that is what you wish to think of people like this, then let's take a trip through a few people who did great things soley because of a "grudge":
1. The Americans who fought the revolutionary war and establish the United States of America Grudge: They didn't like being bullied by the monarchy
2. Martin Luther King and the Civil rights movement. Grudge: Many... Rosa Parks, the integration of public schools, etc...
3. Steve Jobs and his vision of a computer without IBM and corporate suits. Grudge: He hated IBM.
4. Thomas Edison and his many inventions Grudge: Life
5. SUBJECT LINE TROLL Grudge: Slashdot posters
6. Linus Torvalds and the Linux kernel Grudge: The high cost of Unix
GNU will live on forever as classical music does. It may not be popular, but you can't argue that it is powerful, classic and has great beauty. Bravo RMS!;)
Off-topic, but... You post because you can't resist the Pavlovian response that most Slashdotters seem to be slave to. Of course, what fun would Slashdot be if we didn't all have trigger fingers from time to time?:)
The real key is that where there is money involved (ie. a company stands to lose money on good bug hunting and peer review) security is always going to come second to last. With Microsoft, here's the hierarchy:
1. Profit! 2. PR/Spin 3. ??? 4. Satisfy customers just enough to keep them 5. Everything else (ie. security, stability, etc...)
Since a lot of OSS projects aren't made in the name of profit, the hierarchy is more like this:
1. Write something useful/cool 2. Share it with everyone and get peer review 3. Patch holes and bugs 4. Wind up with excellent quality software (Emacs, GNU, etc..) 5. Rinse and repeat
With either approach, you have to keep in mind that the cycles are unending because the bars are always being raised. But, which bar is payed more attention varies based on the end goal. For proprietary/non-free software, the only goal is to write software to make money. For free software, the primary goal is to write good software for the sake of writing good software. This approach angers the capitalists because it potentially threatens their system. And in the long run, Emacs is still going to be around long after MS Notepad is gone. Just like classical music has more lasting value than Eminem or Kidd Rock. Someday 25 years from now you can ask a 10 year old who Kidd Rock is, and they'll say, "Who"? But if you ask the same 10 year old who Beethoven is, they'll probably have heard of him.
There are two ways to look at this. ONe way is to make the assumption that the problem lies with the user and the other is that the problem lies within the computer. Even though computers have gotten easier to use, they aren't really easy at all for the average user. The barriers to ease of use are plenty:
-Feature overload (many features that users will never use) -PCs are incredibly complex because they are so flexible and can do so many things. -User interfaces are pretty poorly designed and don't seem to be getting any better. -Humans don't "interface" well
If the mode of interacting with computers was like interacting with another person, they would be considerably easier to use. I often joke with my wife that *I* and the ultimate user interface. If you think about it, the best interface for the average user would be a very human-like avatar. Yes, this interface would suck for someone like me (a real computer user), but that's not who it would be targetted at.
Getting back to the XML subject, these same problems are what keep it from gaining any ground with the average user. The average user still doesn't "get" electronic documents. That's why they always resort to printing them out on paper. To be sure, there are times when a document SHOULD be printed on paper, but that's only really about 20% of the time. The other 80% a document is much better to keep in electronic format. With XML, so much the better. But if the average user has trouble understanding even a basic text file, the ultra-documents that XML can lead to will be completely bewildering. How do we solve this? I've argued this before over and over again: we need new input devices and now I will extend that to new output devices. If we had more variety with the output device, XML documents would be the next "great thing". The XML document has arrived too soon. If we had electronic paper that XML docs could be loaded into, there would be a revolution. It will happen, not just yet. And when it does happen, look for some big corporation to be backing something that looks a lot like XML, but it will have a different more friendly name and will be claimed as innovative.
Wow. You really have a lot to learn about computers don't you? That's OK. We all have to start somewhere. You should check into some of the basic computer literacy classes offered at your local continuing education facility. After that, you can move onto a computer tech job and get some real world experience. Then, you might be ready to move on to a real IT position and work with more platforms than MS Windows or Slowlaris. After you have as much experience with multiple platforms as a seasoned IT professional, then maybe, just maybe, you'll see the beauty of an OS like Linux. For now, your license to comment is invalid.
Here it comes. McLinux is on it's way. It won't be long before we have people running "Linux" at home with that annoying "You've got mail" sound. Get ready to have Linux destroyed in the same way that the Internet has been.
I only wish more people in the US thought like you. Unfortunately, these days, most people are too preoccupied by diversions calculated to distract the public from how bad our Bush administration really is. Once they take over the voting systems, the American dream will be gone. There is nothing anyone can do. Even you gun toting folks who think that you can revolt against a tyrranical goverment won't be able to do a damn thing even if you wanted to. The only people who might have a prayer of taking out tyranny are those of us with the *minds* to do it. That is what's required these days. Not guns, but intelligence.
...he isn't allowed to work in India. The article leaves that as the last line with no explanation. Sounds a little too convenient for me. I would guess this is a weird pairing of anti-equal opportunity employment folks and people who would NOW turn to the government for assistance in getting the system to work for them. Chances are that a lot of people in this boat would have been completely opposed to government intervention before.
Satellite-assisted European road trolls. Would that be a satellite system that would guide trolls to the underside of the nearest abandoned bridge? Maybe let them know where the nearest unattended goats are? Hmmmm?;P (Please someone rate this funny. I need the points)
Slashdot Mirror
Two points to make here as well. It works in a strange reverse way too. I can't tell you how many times I've had a Windows using friend just assume that I'm running Windows because I'm a "computer guy". Usually they assume that I can run some program that they use (internet voice chat, file sharing, etc...) and then they express amazement when I tell them I don't run Windows. Again, I accept it because Linux still hasn't made a dent in the world of "Joe User". To them, if it has a mouse and windows and it's not a Mac, then it has to be MS Windows.
:)
The other point is that for people like me, Windows is way too limited. I moved from the Mac to Windows back in 1994. Mostly because I graduated from college, no longer had access to Macs on campus and couldn't afford a Mac. So I got a 486 with DOS6.22/Windows 3.1 and slogged my way through that abyss. Eventually, I learned it and got the system to do what I needed at the time. Then I moved to Win95, then Win98 and NT4. Along the way I tried Linux out on and off meeting with frustration here and there. But at about RedHat 5.0, my knowledge grew to where I could use Linux for most of my needs AND RedHat had reached a level I could understand. Since then my knowledge has grown and so have my needs. Back in 1994 if you would have told me that I would have a system that would automatically rip CDs to compressed audio files and insert title/artist/album info into the file, add them to my exported network file system, build a nightly playlist and finally e-mail me the results including any errors, I would have thought you gave me way more credit than I deserve. But sometime between here and there the task became easier because my knowledge grew AND the tools to do these things became easier to use. (Keep in mind I'm a former Mac user nearly ten years. ie. not noted for being the most technically saavy users) The only contact I have with Windows these days is systems at work and the one laptop at home that work has provided. I am very familiar with what Windows XP Pro has to offer and it isn't enough for my needs today. So I have to add Cygwin to get what I need out of Windows. The situation is kind of the reverse for me. Windows is slowly getting more usable for automation purposes and coding (as a default feature if the OS, not by buying software), but I'm not sure it's really targeted at users like me.
So in the end, the main thing that really separates the OS a user will be comfortable with is what they actually use their systems to do. I've tried to help a few of my Windows using friends try Linux out. But they usually don't like computers as much as I do and wind up going back to Windows. They prefer "application space" and actually sitting down at their computers to do work. Whereas, I prefer somewhere between "application space" and "coder space" and make my computers sit down in front of me and do work.
Just wanted to note that I am adding you to my friends list since you are one of the rare Windows users who doesn't disparage Linux as sucking outright. Personally, I use Linux exclusively and it works very weel for all the things that I do with computers at home. But the point I think a lot of Linux folk should take away from your post is that the uses that a computer has will vary wildly from one user to another. I don't use any of the hardware or software you mention because a computer has a very different set of uses for me (home automation, coding, ripping CDs to Ogg Vorbis, file serving, web serving, mail serving, DNS, protocol tunneling [to listen to those Ogg Vorbis files being streamed to me at work encrypted in a secure shell tunnel], recipe database, internet access, playing games [the usual suspects: quake 3, Unreal tournament, and a few Windows games in W.I.N.E.], remote administration over tunneled X/ssh, firewalling and intrusion detection.). A lot of what I use my computers for is very different from what "Joe Average" does. I hate paper documents, so I have very little need for printing. I also don't usually use the latest and greatest hardware and instead opt for what is going to work with Linux. But, I do accept the fact that some people need these things and are better off with Windows for the time being. I would also say that Linux will always be playing driver catch up since many companies are not willing to open up info about their devices for fear of a competitor using that info to best them. This is something that will never change unless Linux really gets some kind of boost to get it on 70% of the "Joe User" systems out there. I'm happy enough living with the way Linux is right now because it doesn't impact my needs (other than the audio and video production world where I do use Windows for now). For the limited user that only does mail/web and word procesing, RedHat is there now. But as soon as you add peer-to-peer file sharing or any financial stuff, it gets a little harder to satisfy "Joe User" at this point.
...Planet X is coming.
Get ready to hear about a lot more burnt penises. Cause the faster the processors go, the hotter they're going to get.
...and it won't be long before terabit ethernet is on the market to continue the revenue stream for our overlords.
Good argument. I like it. :)
A lot of the time, people on Slashdot complain about the passion that someone like RMS exhibits. Some even go so far as to call the passion a grudge. If that is what you wish to think of people like this, then let's take a trip through a few people who did great things soley because of a "grudge":
;)
1. The Americans who fought the revolutionary war and establish the United States of America
Grudge: They didn't like being bullied by the monarchy
2. Martin Luther King and the Civil rights movement.
Grudge: Many... Rosa Parks, the integration of public schools, etc...
3. Steve Jobs and his vision of a computer without IBM and corporate suits.
Grudge: He hated IBM.
4. Thomas Edison and his many inventions
Grudge: Life
5. SUBJECT LINE TROLL
Grudge: Slashdot posters
6. Linus Torvalds and the Linux kernel
Grudge: The high cost of Unix
GNU will live on forever as classical music does. It may not be popular, but you can't argue that it is powerful, classic and has great beauty. Bravo RMS!
So how's Aunt Beru doing? Have you seen the droids lately? I hear the Empire is paying farmers a visit, you might want to take cover. ;)
Off-topic, but... You post because you can't resist the Pavlovian response that most Slashdotters seem to be slave to. Of course, what fun would Slashdot be if we didn't all have trigger fingers from time to time? :)
The real key is that where there is money involved (ie. a company stands to lose money on good bug hunting and peer review) security is always going to come second to last. With Microsoft, here's the hierarchy:
1. Profit!
2. PR/Spin
3. ???
4. Satisfy customers just enough to keep them
5. Everything else (ie. security, stability, etc...)
Since a lot of OSS projects aren't made in the name of profit, the hierarchy is more like this:
1. Write something useful/cool
2. Share it with everyone and get peer review
3. Patch holes and bugs
4. Wind up with excellent quality software (Emacs, GNU, etc..)
5. Rinse and repeat
With either approach, you have to keep in mind that the cycles are unending because the bars are always being raised. But, which bar is payed more attention varies based on the end goal. For proprietary/non-free software, the only goal is to write software to make money. For free software, the primary goal is to write good software for the sake of writing good software. This approach angers the capitalists because it potentially threatens their system. And in the long run, Emacs is still going to be around long after MS Notepad is gone. Just like classical music has more lasting value than Eminem or Kidd Rock. Someday 25 years from now you can ask a 10 year old who Kidd Rock is, and they'll say, "Who"? But if you ask the same 10 year old who Beethoven is, they'll probably have heard of him.
When you are feeling down and the worms are spreading round, FUCK the skull of Microsoft! FUCK the skull of Microsoft!
;P
When you have patches galore and your eyes are all sore, FUCK the skull of Microsoft! FUCK the skull of Microsoft!
They say security's their focus, but their bug list's a swarm of locusts! FUCK the skull of Microsoft! FUCK the skull of Microsoft!
Bill Gates can't write a program for 640K o RAM! FUCK the skull of Microsoft! FUCK the skull of Microsoft!!
Although there's trusted computing and Palladium in our future, MS is such a target that even those will need some sutures!
How can you trust something you can't see? (the code) Even Christians have a hard time convincing me!
So no matter what they say, we all know MS is sooo teh ghey! FUCK the skull of Microsoft! FUCK the skull of Microsoft!
Yep. It's a troll. Could someone set it music please?
Is this the first time a goatse post was actually modded up above a 2? w00t! ;)
All I can say is "EWWWWWWW!!!!"
And mind reading as well. Have to wait a long time for that...
There are two ways to look at this. ONe way is to make the assumption that the problem lies with the user and the other is that the problem lies within the computer. Even though computers have gotten easier to use, they aren't really easy at all for the average user. The barriers to ease of use are plenty:
-Feature overload (many features that users will never use)
-PCs are incredibly complex because they are so flexible and can do so many things.
-User interfaces are pretty poorly designed and don't seem to be getting any better.
-Humans don't "interface" well
If the mode of interacting with computers was like interacting with another person, they would be considerably easier to use. I often joke with my wife that *I* and the ultimate user interface. If you think about it, the best interface for the average user would be a very human-like avatar. Yes, this interface would suck for someone like me (a real computer user), but that's not who it would be targetted at.
Getting back to the XML subject, these same problems are what keep it from gaining any ground with the average user. The average user still doesn't "get" electronic documents. That's why they always resort to printing them out on paper. To be sure, there are times when a document SHOULD be printed on paper, but that's only really about 20% of the time. The other 80% a document is much better to keep in electronic format. With XML, so much the better. But if the average user has trouble understanding even a basic text file, the ultra-documents that XML can lead to will be completely bewildering. How do we solve this? I've argued this before over and over again: we need new input devices and now I will extend that to new output devices. If we had more variety with the output device, XML documents would be the next "great thing". The XML document has arrived too soon. If we had electronic paper that XML docs could be loaded into, there would be a revolution. It will happen, not just yet. And when it does happen, look for some big corporation to be backing something that looks a lot like XML, but it will have a different more friendly name and will be claimed as innovative.
You equate insults with anger? I have to laugh.
Wow. You really have a lot to learn about computers don't you? That's OK. We all have to start somewhere. You should check into some of the basic computer literacy classes offered at your local continuing education facility. After that, you can move onto a computer tech job and get some real world experience. Then, you might be ready to move on to a real IT position and work with more platforms than MS Windows or Slowlaris. After you have as much experience with multiple platforms as a seasoned IT professional, then maybe, just maybe, you'll see the beauty of an OS like Linux. For now, your license to comment is invalid.
Here it comes. McLinux is on it's way. It won't be long before we have people running "Linux" at home with that annoying "You've got mail" sound. Get ready to have Linux destroyed in the same way that the Internet has been.
This bloke's made a living off of his clumsiness. 'Ere Vroomfondel, how come we don't think of things like that!?
When you have patches galore and your eyes are all sore, FUCK the skull of Microsoft! FUCK the skull of Microsoft!
They say security's their focus, but their bug list's a swarm of locusts! FUCK the skull of Microsoft! FUCK the skull of Microsoft!
Bill Gates can't write a program for 640K o RAM! FUCK the skull of Microsoft! FUCK the skull of Microsoft!!
Although there's trusted computing and Palladium in our future, MS is such a target that even those will need some sutures!
How can you trust something you can't see? (the code) Even Christians have a hard time convincing me!
So no matter what they say, we all know MS is sooo teh ghey! FUCK the skull of Microsoft! FUCK the skull of Microsoft!
Yep. It's a troll. Could someone set it music please? ;P
I only wish more people in the US thought like you. Unfortunately, these days, most people are too preoccupied by diversions calculated to distract the public from how bad our Bush administration really is. Once they take over the voting systems, the American dream will be gone. There is nothing anyone can do. Even you gun toting folks who think that you can revolt against a tyrranical goverment won't be able to do a damn thing even if you wanted to. The only people who might have a prayer of taking out tyranny are those of us with the *minds* to do it. That is what's required these days. Not guns, but intelligence.
...he isn't allowed to work in India. The article leaves that as the last line with no explanation. Sounds a little too convenient for me. I would guess this is a weird pairing of anti-equal opportunity employment folks and people who would NOW turn to the government for assistance in getting the system to work for them. Chances are that a lot of people in this boat would have been completely opposed to government intervention before.
What good is archival quality media, if you don't have the device to read it with?
Satellite-assisted European road trolls. Would that be a satellite system that would guide trolls to the underside of the nearest abandoned bridge? Maybe let them know where the nearest unattended goats are? Hmmmm? ;P (Please someone rate this funny. I need the points)
WTF!?? How can anyone afford that amount of money?! That's ludicrous!