2,000 is a RIDICULOUSLY small sample size to extrapolate the views of 60+ million people from.
I know many people who respond with the stupidest possible answers to surveys in order to skew the results.
Frankly, I refuse to believe my fellow countrymen are this ignorant - I certainly have never encountered anyone this stupid in 30 years of living in the UK.
So you're saying it's not costs that matter for a government, it's abstract values.
I didn't say anything of the sort. I simply stated that making a larger up-front investment in your IT infrastructure to save an ongoing cost would be cheaper in time. "freedom" in the context I used it refers to freedom from vendor lockin and forced upgrades through end-of-lining support of products.
The value of being able to tinker with your OS is as much of value to a businessman/clerk as it is to you to tinker with your internal organs for the fun of it.
No, but I'm fucking glad that there are a whole host of people out there who I could pay to work on my internal organs for me should they go wrong.
Are you seriously suggesting that because the businessman doesn't know about code that it is valueless for him to be able to pay someone with the skill to do it for him, rather than be at the mercy of a single vendor?
*I suppose that'd be my karma suicide for daring to flame on linux:)
I rather suspect if you were downmodded it's due to your points being extremely shallow and making very little sense.
use some Linux variety which will not support most of the software they need, requiring custom solutions and ports, thus spending a lot more money in the process.
Who said freedom was cheap?
Besides, this would be a one-time cost that would get them off the Microsoft upgrade treadmill - a cost that would pay for itself in time.
i don't think it's that simple... besides, in this 'war of proprietary vs open'...
Proprietary versus open is not part of this debate.
It is that simple - we're talking about punishment for anti-competitive behaviour. PUNISHMENT FOR A CRIME. For the reasons you outlined it is in Microsoft's interests (the EU is a huge and lucrative market to Microsoft) to acquiesce to the EU's demands.
If they don't like the fact that they don't provide the documentation that they want, they should not buy their software in the first place.
Irrelevant - this is about competition, not past purchasing decisions. Microsoft either do what the EU says, or they pay the fines, ORthey stop trading the EU. Simple.
As much as we may despise it, Windows is a very large, complex piece of software. As bugs are fixed and features added, more bugs are created and so the cycle goes on.
This is the reality of software development. Does he really think that if Microsoft could fix every bug they wouldn't do it?
Note that I specifically said "in part." I am not arguing that Windows created the PC revolution, only that it played an important role. Do you really disagree, or do you just love blowing things out of proportion?
Yeah, I enjoy the dramatics;-)
Not everyone has a dedicated tech support person. See the other reply to your post for an example of someone who has had difficulty adopting Linux.
Now, that guy is a prime example. He's come from Windows and therefore he expects a replacement for Windows - things don't work how he expects so he gives up in frustration. It's not anyone's fault particularly but he needs to learn about his new operating system before he can use it. Oh, and "easy to figure out" is not the same thing as "easy to use".
He (and other folks in the same boat) may find this article of interest.
Apparently OO doesn't provide grammatical advice. As your sentence made no sense, I have no refutation. However, I agree with you that the problem stems from "Power Users": those who have developed a working knowledge of Linux and cannot understand the difficulties faced by novices.
Yeah, sorry about that - it was a badly-written sentence. I was making the point that "power users" think "I know all about computers so this Linux thing should be a snap!". Of course, they only really know a bit about Windows so when faced with a problem they can't solve because things don't work like Windows, they complain "stupid OS doesn't work properly! This isn't ready for the desktop!" and go back to Windows.
Of course, as you say, with a dedicated tech support person (and don't we all end up doing that for friends/family?) then it doesn't really matter what the OS is - in my experience your average lay-person can barely use ANY OS with equal degrees of incompetence so it's easier to convert these folks to (insert fave Linux distro here) because they don't have to unlearn the Microsoft way first.
I think it's well agreed upon that the proliferation of PCs is at least in part due to Microsoft, whose products are easy to use, even for novices. No matter what you want to think, Linux is NOT easy for inexperienced users.
How exactly is the PC revolution all thanks to Microsoft and their "ease of use for novices"? The PC revolution was well underway before the existence of Windows. I remember helping customers use software I'd written for their 286 notebook luggables running DOS 3 well before Windows made it with WFW.
If you really want less money to go to Microsoft, good sir, then I suggest you run down to the pub, gather up all your friends, and get to work on a product that genuinely replaces Windows. A product that gets the job done on high-end servers, cheap notebooks, and PDAs. A product that may not be perfect (or even close) but one that makes sense to the AVERAGE user. I wish you good luck, and remember: Linux does not meet the above requirements.
*sigh*. Yes. It does. I've converted MANY friends and family to Linux and I have far less support calls than with Windows. You see, the problem lies in the "Power Users" group - people who think they know about computers when in actual fact they only really think they know about Windows. They expect to load up an alternative operating system and have it work just like Windows. Your average Joe User can happily use a setup Linux machine without noticing too much difference because using Thunderbird/Firefox/OO on *nix is not much different to Outlook/IE/Office on Windows (seriously, how many of those whizbang office features do you think your average person uses?).
What we need to do is educate people rather than make a clone of Windows - if you let Microsoft set the rules we'll be playing catchup forever. Getting something else on OEM PCs would help since Joe Average can't exactly replace the Windows he's given now, can he?
The general followers use phrases like "whining Windows ex-pats" and come off as total assholes.
I think it's a good description of the Windows users who tend to complain that "Linux isn't ready for the desktop" based on the 5 minutes following an Ubuntu/Fedora install and before returning to Windows.
If Linux fanboys want to convince, they need to make a product that works as well as the competition.
This statement is just wrong:
"Linux fanboys" don't tend to write software.
The people that do write the software HAVE NO INTEREST IN DEFEATING MICROSOFT. How does having a bunch of whining Windows ex-pats looking to save money help the F/OSS world at all? No. Are they going to write software? Are they going to complain that everything doesn't work just like it does on windows? Probably.
This book is very similar to the Parable of the Broken Window by Bastiat.
It is highly ironic that you use this analogy. It applies to your comments:
I'm not being a Microsoft fanboy here, I just wanted to make it clear that Microsoft is producing a huge market that many of us here rely on. Microsoft uses their profit for positive benefits to society as well: 1 2 3 4 These are just a few from November, 2005.
You imply that the money is well spent propping up Microsoft's monopoly because they make donations to charity and there is employment around their crappy software?
I strongly suspect that if billions didn't go Microsoft's way, some of that money would find its way to charity and there would still be a strong market around custom software solutions. If Microsoft weren't there I'm sure we'd find a way to muddle along;-)
Of course, we don't know what the world's economies would look like without Microsoft, but from a European perspective (I'm English) a lot less money would be going overseas to an American corporation which could only be good.
He also said "You know what would make a good story? Something about a clown who make people happy, but inside he's real sad. Also, he has severe diarrhea.". So if Superman had a diarrhea (You could say a SUPER-diarrhea!)... We clearly need Jack Handy to redo the script of Superman V!
Yeah that would rock! We could call it "Pooperman" or something!
I thought Firefly was great, but in Serenity they removed a lot of the things that made Firefly such fun (the whole western thing, the camaraderie between characters), altered some of the characters for the worse and completely wasted some great storylines from the series (why did they even bother including the Shepherd in the movie if it was just to kill him off?).
I appreciate it's a movie and they have to focus on the main story, but I couldn't help but feel a bit let down because it could have been an amazing movie and instead it was just very good.
iTunes can be run with Wine. I consider amaroK to be superior (AND it has neat iPod integration but who wants alternatives eh?)
??
What? You mean the horrible software with giant buttons and "register for email functionality" crap? I don't see how this is any kind of disadvantage. In KDE, it's integrated, you plug the camera in, a camera icon appears on the desktop, you click it and you can view/edit/mail/save the photos.
That is the fault of the hardware manufacturers and I think printers that don't work with CUPS are generally the exception rather than the rule - I have yet to encounter a non-working, new, low end inkjet printer for family. HP and others even have open source drivers so you're safe there.
Bring it on, what the hell is wrong with the GIMP? How about Krita? How about the million and one other simple image manipulation packages?
That's not a specific complaint.
If all you're doing is browsing the web and writing letters, Linux is fine. But if you have an iPod, or use a digital camera/movie player, you're screwed.
Utter garbage - I use VLC and Mplayer, KDE's camera integration, amaroK's iPod integration and in ALL cases, they are simpler, more intuitive, require no drivers/separate install and "just work".
You can run FloydSSH on ANY MIDP1.0 (read Java) compatible mobile phone with GPRS or 3G support. That's just about any phone you can buy today.
I used to use it on my Motorola v500 and it even manages a 40x25 character terminal and uses the keypad as hotkeys for commonly used commands. Seems quirky at first, but it works and well.
It was the cutting edge of science when the book was first published in 1898 (the discovery of viruses and the common cold being relatively new).
It's public domain now and you can read the original book here, along with HG Wells complete works (which I highly recommend - he's the grandaddy of science fiction).
Sorry, but I must reply again. You claim that DDT is breeding resistant mosquitos, and therefore its use against malaria is unwise. According to that line of "reasoning," we should also stop using antibiotics because they are breeding resistant bacteria. Brilliant! I urge you to decline antibiotics the next time you get a serious infection.
I think you know full well that there is a very big difference between administering antibiotics to a person with bacterial infection and mass spraying great swathes of countryside with them.
People are dying in Africa by the million, and mental midgets like you have a "scientific" excuse to stand by and let them die...
Few points/tips for you:
Just because I pointed you to a few scientific facts backing up the statement that DDT quickly breeds resistant mosquitos, it does not follow that I approve of the deaths of millions of Africans (or anyone for that matter).
I had already read the junkscience article you linked to - it discusses socio-political arguments for the banning of DDT and its impact on humans and wildlife. It mentions effectively NOTHING about the effectiveness of DDT as an insecticide with the exception of a small paragraph about how it still repels resistant mosquitos to some degree.
I'm not going to dignify the link to a FOX article, filed in their "VIEWS" section with a response.
Flat out insulting people in a debate makes you look like you've lost, even if you had a valid point.
The widespread use of DDT had all but wiped out malaria some three decades ago. Then someone named Rachel Carson wrote a fictional book called "Silent Spring" about how DDT was harming birds. The book was fictional, literally. But the irrational so-called "envoronmentalists" of the world took it as a call to action and successfully pressured the government to ban DDT. Now millions die needlessly in Africa as a result of their irrationality.
Wow.
Just, wow man. This is the most ignorant, uninformed post I think I've ever read on Slashdot. Well done!
Here's a Debunking for you - you could have found it yourself with a quick Google.
A simple bit of research would show that something much more interesing happened - a low level contingent of the mosquito population is resistant to DDT and DDT sprayings kill off the rest. The resistant portion reproduce and you're back to a full population again, except this time they're all resistant, rendering the DDT useless.
I outlined why OO is a better product as far as I'm concerned. My freedom and choices do not preclude you or anyone else from making your own.
Re:The true test of Open Source
on
OpenOffice Bloated?
·
· Score: 2, Insightful
If people just justify the results and claim that OO is still better just because it's Open Source, then in reality Open Source will lose.
It IS better because it's Open Souce. It's better in my eyes because I value my freedoms and I'd rather have a slower application with open formats and open code than a closed source application trying to lock up my data and tie me into one platform.
As you said, OO's problems can be overcome - Microsoft's can't.
I had the same trouble. In the end, I wrote some scripts that took apart the EAR file generated by the deploy feature and reinjected the JAR containing the new code (which compiled in a few seconds via an ant script) - much better and I could use vim/ant to develop instead of WSAD (spit spit)
Slashdot Mirror
I think they maybe already.
Frankly, I refuse to believe my fellow countrymen are this ignorant - I certainly have never encountered anyone this stupid in 30 years of living in the UK.
Nothing to stir up the human sole.
Hmmmm - sounds fishy...
So you're saying it's not costs that matter for a government, it's abstract values.
I didn't say anything of the sort. I simply stated that making a larger up-front investment in your IT infrastructure to save an ongoing cost would be cheaper in time. "freedom" in the context I used it refers to freedom from vendor lockin and forced upgrades through end-of-lining support of products.
The value of being able to tinker with your OS is as much of value to a businessman/clerk as it is to you to tinker with your internal organs for the fun of it.
No, but I'm fucking glad that there are a whole host of people out there who I could pay to work on my internal organs for me should they go wrong.
Are you seriously suggesting that because the businessman doesn't know about code that it is valueless for him to be able to pay someone with the skill to do it for him, rather than be at the mercy of a single vendor?
*I suppose that'd be my karma suicide for daring to flame on linux :)
I rather suspect if you were downmodded it's due to your points being extremely shallow and making very little sense.
Also, who said Linux is freedom?
I rest my case...
use some Linux variety which will not support most of the software they need, requiring custom solutions and ports, thus spending a lot more money in the process.
Who said freedom was cheap?
Besides, this would be a one-time cost that would get them off the Microsoft upgrade treadmill - a cost that would pay for itself in time.
Sorry, assumed since you replied to my post that you were disagreeing with me ;-)
i don't think it's that simple ... besides, in this 'war of proprietary vs open' ...
Proprietary versus open is not part of this debate.
It is that simple - we're talking about punishment for anti-competitive behaviour. PUNISHMENT FOR A CRIME. For the reasons you outlined it is in Microsoft's interests (the EU is a huge and lucrative market to Microsoft) to acquiesce to the EU's demands.
If they don't like the fact that they don't provide the documentation that they want, they should not buy their software in the first place.
Irrelevant - this is about competition, not past purchasing decisions. Microsoft either do what the EU says, or they pay the fines, OR they stop trading the EU. Simple.
This is the internet. You're allowed to say fuck. :-)
Also, using Battlestar Galactica-speak is... well... a bit nerdy, and detracts from your point (which is spot on and I entirely agree with).
This wouldn't have anything to do with you being the developer of another free kernel?
Besides, I hardly think Linux "spreads itself". Although that would be cool.
Is this guy completely retarded?
As much as we may despise it, Windows is a very large, complex piece of software. As bugs are fixed and features added, more bugs are created and so the cycle goes on.
This is the reality of software development. Does he really think that if Microsoft could fix every bug they wouldn't do it?
Note that I specifically said "in part." I am not arguing that Windows created the PC revolution, only that it played an important role. Do you really disagree, or do you just love blowing things out of proportion?
Yeah, I enjoy the dramatics ;-)
Not everyone has a dedicated tech support person. See the other reply to your post for an example of someone who has had difficulty adopting Linux.
Now, that guy is a prime example. He's come from Windows and therefore he expects a replacement for Windows - things don't work how he expects so he gives up in frustration. It's not anyone's fault particularly but he needs to learn about his new operating system before he can use it. Oh, and "easy to figure out" is not the same thing as "easy to use".
He (and other folks in the same boat) may find this article of interest.
Apparently OO doesn't provide grammatical advice. As your sentence made no sense, I have no refutation. However, I agree with you that the problem stems from "Power Users": those who have developed a working knowledge of Linux and cannot understand the difficulties faced by novices.
Yeah, sorry about that - it was a badly-written sentence. I was making the point that "power users" think "I know all about computers so this Linux thing should be a snap!". Of course, they only really know a bit about Windows so when faced with a problem they can't solve because things don't work like Windows, they complain "stupid OS doesn't work properly! This isn't ready for the desktop!" and go back to Windows.
Of course, as you say, with a dedicated tech support person (and don't we all end up doing that for friends/family?) then it doesn't really matter what the OS is - in my experience your average lay-person can barely use ANY OS with equal degrees of incompetence so it's easier to convert these folks to (insert fave Linux distro here) because they don't have to unlearn the Microsoft way first.
I think it's well agreed upon that the proliferation of PCs is at least in part due to Microsoft, whose products are easy to use, even for novices. No matter what you want to think, Linux is NOT easy for inexperienced users.
How exactly is the PC revolution all thanks to Microsoft and their "ease of use for novices"? The PC revolution was well underway before the existence of Windows. I remember helping customers use software I'd written for their 286 notebook luggables running DOS 3 well before Windows made it with WFW.
If you really want less money to go to Microsoft, good sir, then I suggest you run down to the pub, gather up all your friends, and get to work on a product that genuinely replaces Windows. A product that gets the job done on high-end servers, cheap notebooks, and PDAs. A product that may not be perfect (or even close) but one that makes sense to the AVERAGE user. I wish you good luck, and remember: Linux does not meet the above requirements.
*sigh*. Yes. It does. I've converted MANY friends and family to Linux and I have far less support calls than with Windows. You see, the problem lies in the "Power Users" group - people who think they know about computers when in actual fact they only really think they know about Windows. They expect to load up an alternative operating system and have it work just like Windows. Your average Joe User can happily use a setup Linux machine without noticing too much difference because using Thunderbird/Firefox/OO on *nix is not much different to Outlook/IE/Office on Windows (seriously, how many of those whizbang office features do you think your average person uses?).
What we need to do is educate people rather than make a clone of Windows - if you let Microsoft set the rules we'll be playing catchup forever. Getting something else on OEM PCs would help since Joe Average can't exactly replace the Windows he's given now, can he?
The general followers use phrases like "whining Windows ex-pats" and come off as total assholes.
I think it's a good description of the Windows users who tend to complain that "Linux isn't ready for the desktop" based on the 5 minutes following an Ubuntu/Fedora install and before returning to Windows.
And as for the asshole comment, you're a dick :-)
If Linux fanboys want to convince, they need to make a product that works as well as the competition.
This statement is just wrong:
This book is very similar to the Parable of the Broken Window by Bastiat.
It is highly ironic that you use this analogy. It applies to your comments:
I'm not being a Microsoft fanboy here, I just wanted to make it clear that Microsoft is producing a huge market that many of us here rely on. Microsoft uses their profit for positive benefits to society as well: 1 2 3 4 These are just a few from November, 2005.
You imply that the money is well spent propping up Microsoft's monopoly because they make donations to charity and there is employment around their crappy software?
I strongly suspect that if billions didn't go Microsoft's way, some of that money would find its way to charity and there would still be a strong market around custom software solutions. If Microsoft weren't there I'm sure we'd find a way to muddle along ;-)
Of course, we don't know what the world's economies would look like without Microsoft, but from a European perspective (I'm English) a lot less money would be going overseas to an American corporation which could only be good.
He also said "You know what would make a good story? Something about a clown who make people happy, but inside he's real sad. Also, he has severe diarrhea.". So if Superman had a diarrhea (You could say a SUPER-diarrhea!)... We clearly need Jack Handy to redo the script of Superman V!
Yeah that would rock! We could call it "Pooperman" or something!
I thought Firefly was great, but in Serenity they removed a lot of the things that made Firefly such fun (the whole western thing, the camaraderie between characters), altered some of the characters for the worse and completely wasted some great storylines from the series (why did they even bother including the Shepherd in the movie if it was just to kill him off?).
I appreciate it's a movie and they have to focus on the main story, but I couldn't help but feel a bit let down because it could have been an amazing movie and instead it was just very good.
Biggest troll I've read in a long time.
If all you're doing is browsing the web and writing letters, Linux is fine. But if you have an iPod, or use a digital camera/movie player, you're screwed.
Utter garbage - I use VLC and Mplayer, KDE's camera integration, amaroK's iPod integration and in ALL cases, they are simpler, more intuitive, require no drivers/separate install and "just work".
You can run FloydSSH on ANY MIDP1.0 (read Java) compatible mobile phone with GPRS or 3G support. That's just about any phone you can buy today.
I used to use it on my Motorola v500 and it even manages a 40x25 character terminal and uses the keypad as hotkeys for commonly used commands. Seems quirky at first, but it works and well.
It was the cutting edge of science when the book was first published in 1898 (the discovery of viruses and the common cold being relatively new).
It's public domain now and you can read the original book here, along with HG Wells complete works (which I highly recommend - he's the grandaddy of science fiction).
Sorry, but I must reply again. You claim that DDT is breeding resistant mosquitos, and therefore its use against malaria is unwise. According to that line of "reasoning," we should also stop using antibiotics because they are breeding resistant bacteria. Brilliant! I urge you to decline antibiotics the next time you get a serious infection.
I think you know full well that there is a very big difference between administering antibiotics to a person with bacterial infection and mass spraying great swathes of countryside with them.
People are dying in Africa by the million, and mental midgets like you have a "scientific" excuse to stand by and let them die...
Few points/tips for you:
The widespread use of DDT had all but wiped out malaria some three decades ago. Then someone named Rachel Carson wrote a fictional book called "Silent Spring" about how DDT was harming birds. The book was fictional, literally. But the irrational so-called "envoronmentalists" of the world took it as a call to action and successfully pressured the government to ban DDT. Now millions die needlessly in Africa as a result of their irrationality.
Wow.
Just, wow man. This is the most ignorant, uninformed post I think I've ever read on Slashdot. Well done!
Here's a Debunking for you - you could have found it yourself with a quick Google.
A simple bit of research would show that something much more interesing happened - a low level contingent of the mosquito population is resistant to DDT and DDT sprayings kill off the rest. The resistant portion reproduce and you're back to a full population again, except this time they're all resistant, rendering the DDT useless.
You sir, are a troll.
I outlined why OO is a better product as far as I'm concerned. My freedom and choices do not preclude you or anyone else from making your own.
If people just justify the results and claim that OO is still better just because it's Open Source, then in reality Open Source will lose.
It IS better because it's Open Souce. It's better in my eyes because I value my freedoms and I'd rather have a slower application with open formats and open code than a closed source application trying to lock up my data and tie me into one platform.
As you said, OO's problems can be overcome - Microsoft's can't.
I had the same trouble. In the end, I wrote some scripts that took apart the EAR file generated by the deploy feature and reinjected the JAR containing the new code (which compiled in a few seconds via an ant script) - much better and I could use vim/ant to develop instead of WSAD (spit spit)
This handle was partly inspired by Fyodor Dostoevsky, who was perhaps the second greatest writer of all time.
Don't know why (I have heard of the famous Fyodor), but I always assumed he picked it because when you say it out loud it sounds like "fire-door" :-)