"We're not professionals!" - "We don't possess special skills!" - "We have no management authority!" - "You need to pay us by the hour like burger flippers!"
The funny part is that the same people, on both sides, once all believed that it was monopolistic and "unfair" for M$ to include their own products with Windows...
One monopoly is the same as another, just the geeks at the top look different.
Odd that the "Do no evil" company once had plans to listen in to your microphone and readily admits to storing your searches in an identifiable manner essentially forever.
I graduated college at 33 after having spent my normal college years in the military and in industry.
When I started back to school one of my first thoughts was, "Man, these kids are stupid."
Then I realized that the whole thing is a matter of perspective.
When you are 18 and in college you think you are smart because you have similar levels of experience and knowledge relative to your peers.
Now, when you are 30 and peered with a bunch of 18 year olds of course they will seem a bit slow, they have not had the benefit of 12 extra years of life.
School is to teach the basics, they will work out the rest when they hit the real world.
No, the only reason RedHat sells anything to corporate America is that they spread a BUNCH of FUD, just like Novell.
You also "need" a vendor to respond to CERTs and issue patches and service packs.
Let's say I have 300 computers. I want run Linux on these systems. What do I have to do?
Redhat tells me that I need to buy 300 copies of their OS. But what am I licensing? A bunch of GPL software. So, I am paying them for something that is free that they do not own in any way?
Maybe, like SuSE I am buying "support"? Now what if I bought 1 copy of SLES and put it on 300 machines? The EULA says that you can put the SLES OS on as many systems as you want. How about patches? Can I download then once from Novell and then apply them to 299 other systems?
I immediately thought the same thing. The lamers in these parts say Gates is evil and the google guys are "not evil".
Gates is busy giving away his (and Buffett's) money to make the world a better place, and the google guys are busy blowing their money on fancy gas guzzling, atmosphere destroying, toxin spewing transportation that makes a fleet of SUV's look positively green.
To me a good analogy is the US stock market. Even though we have corporate crimes, billion dollar accounting frauds, and a host of other problems, when looked at through a wider, say 20 year perspective, you can almost always get 10% gains, and the business climate is worthy of trust and investment.
America has problems, what they are week to week, month to month, year to year, administration to administration, differs based on your personal politics, but when taken on a longer term America is still a better bet for defending freedom then some UN or other international committee.
Of course, if you divided up the membership in this international committee fairly, (one person, one vote) China would no longer have to worry about the whole firewall/Google deal, which might be handy for over 20% of the population of the Earth.
I'm no fan of ICANN, but internationalizing the running of the root servers and the establishment of DNS policy only sounds good on paper (kinda like allowing "any" nation to join the IWC did.
SIPRNet, kind of, is on the Internet. (SIPRNet can and often does (or at least did) ride as an encrypted VPN on NIPRNet. There are also supposed one-way gateways between SIPRNet and NIPRnet. NIPRnet is gatewayed to the Internet. I assume that viruses and such have made it to SIPRnet on numerous occasions in the past and will continue to, I expect that any actual information about these potential events would be classified.)
Really in much the same way, these devices are not normally on the Internet.
Normally you have a number of SCADA devices scattered around the country. These are connected back to the HQ in a couple of different ways, but often these ways are POTS or something like VSAT.
Now, at the HQ they have a public and a private network, as well as normal DMZ setups and a firewall/gateway between the private side and the public side.
The public side is mostly business types, accounting systems, etc. The private side is "production" stuff.
The systems that are allowed to connect to the SCADA stuff are on the private side and potentially even more firewalled off, but it is networked since SCADA is "Supervisory Control And Data Aquisition" and you want the info from the device, and you want to be able to issue commands back to the device. As soon as the network is added to the machine it is open for potential hacks, once the system(s) that can directly address the SCADA are compromised then the SCADA can be attacked.
This is not to say that CyberTerrorism is not FUD, much of it is.
Back in the mid 1990's after the end of the ColdWar all of the USAF general officers met at a yearly conference they call Corona (as I recall).
When they finished this conference that year they all came back all amped up over "CyberWarfare". They were excited because they had a new enemy. The brilliant thing about this new enemy was that they could spend money and have full careers forever "defending" against this new threat (and write a bunch of fluff pieces at air war college) and it would be almost impossible to prove or disprove the effectiveness of their efforts. Exactly like the cute rock/tiger story above.
The USAF immediately "claimed" this new "environment" and formed a "BattleLab" full of "our best and brightest" (read trainees straight out of high school and basic training). Then they started sending out panicy "block this IP" messages every time a ping from a foreign network hit a military firewall.
This was all kind of funny to watch. Unfortunately, ever since real war has taken all of the glory out of putzing around with PC's in darkened "Battle Labs", much of this nonsense has taken a back seat to the real deal.
It's all still being done I'm sure (why quit when you have funding), we just don't have to hear about it any more. (Also happily, one of the think tanks out east coined the term "weapon of mass annoyance" to describe "cyber" attacks, now no one except maybe Richard Clarke and Tom Ridge is beating that drum any more).
(In all fairness, it's not the DHS managers fault. They are being told this crap from their underlings who have to justify their existance. The managers are just political mouth pieces parroting stuff. They don't understand any of the technology or the ramifications of what they are hearing.)
>A computer that is firewalled doesn't have to worry so much about remote exploits and worms.
Famous last words...
Do us all a favor and go get the patches...
A machine that is powered off, disconnected from the network, and buried at the bottom of a disused diamond mine does not need to worry so much about worms and remote exploits.
The rest are potential zombies.
I can explain the whole deal if you want it spelled out (defense in depth), but it should be enough that MS knows their OS better then either of us knows it, and you should believe them when they say something is critical. (They also have a reason to downplay risks, so you should REALLY believe them since you know it has been bounced around Redmond for some time before it leaves the building as a critical vulnerability.)
Failing to apply the issued critical security patches on purpose (without a damn good reason) is professional legligence plain and simple.
>Look at the world's most popular forum system, PHPBB.
I don't think I would base my decision on what language to use for my enterprise on what buggy PHPBB uses.
>Yes, that runs on PHP. And people don't run LAMJ servers
I guess you are right, because in enterprise space they are often running LAOJ (OJLA? Linux, Apache, Oracle and Java). Have you ever heard of tomcat? Websphere?
>the P stands for PHP or Perl or Python
The P stood for PHP, perl is dieing in this space (nontrivial web apps) and python is still kinda nichey and most of the people I know who swore that python was the next big thing have now moved on to Ruby. I got bit once (with REBOL) so I tend to stay more mainstream. I also tend to think that OO scripting is kinda silly, sure it is a cool feature if you want to mess with it, but when you are basically forced into OO by the language it sucks.
>But I think that it will degrade because it will not have the ability to adapt like other languages >can.
This agrument has been around for some time. However, so has Java and it seems to be adapting just fine, better then many open languages (Perl and the CPAN kitchen sink, PHP and the Zend/PEAR/configure mess, C99?), in my opinion, because, like BSD's, there is cohesive direction to the development. Do development for awhile. Sometimes (usually) things designed by committee are less good then those designed by a single competent analyst.
>If Sun goes down, methinks it would be all over for Java.
Don't worry, Sun will not go down. They've been "on the verge" since they were founded. Except for some cache problems with the USII ecache they build bulletproof servers and a damn fine OS. You should see a T2000 scream, 8 cores on a chip is a thing of beauty.
>But don't forget that the origin of all open projects is the desire to build a better product
I thought the "origin of all open projects" was RMS, and he's a commie.
>Wanting something is the root cause for it happening. That's not a guarantee, but it's as close as >we can get.
So in the end McNealy DID create millions of jobs!:-)
While I welcome anyone who can get a TLD through ICANN (mind you more as proof for my assertion that unlimited tld's would not hurt the precious "infrastructure" in any way and that the whole TLD "rationing" thing is a conspiracy to control the price of domain names which should realistically be as close to $0.00 as possible, but I digress), this idea doesn't make a lot of sense to me.
If you think through the plan for this domain, why would you want to limit it to just phone numbers? What about IM names? What about e-mail addresses? Physical addresses? etc.
Isn't this just a silly way to implement a directory service (al biet not a very user friendly one)?
Didn't we already go down this route with the ITU years ago and get X.500 and ultimately LDAP (and happily OpenLDAP)?
Maybe it is time to give Novell the.dir that they wanted awhile back. Then everyone who owns a domain will (as I recall) get a shadow domain name of domain.tld.dir so that you would have company.com and get company.com.dir for free, and it would be the public space to access your directory (to whatever degree you wanted to share, or a pointer to the directory or whatever.) and apps and people would always know where to look.
You're wrong. Dell has the right to sell their computers in any configuration they want to. They also have the right to freely make whatever deals they want. If some money changes hands behind the scene between them and one of their suppliers, that is their business, not yours.
You have the right to buy your system from whomever you want.
MS forcing Dell into a deal is wrong. Dell forcing you to buy a computer would be wrong. You requiring Dell to sell you a computer on your terms is perhaps ideal, but if their terms are not to your liking then move on.
They offer a (damn fine, well priced) product, buy it or not.
Besides...There is no discounted price for "no OS" laptops, and you aren't going to find a better deal on a better laptop anywhere, so tell yourself that Windows was free, a gift from Dell and Microsoft on the occasion of you getting a new laptop if you will.
Other things that you might want to whine about: 1. There's no discount if you don't want wifi (WiFi Tax) 2. There's no discount if you don't want irda (IRdA Tax) 3. There's no discount if you don't want a modem (Modem Tax) 4. There's no discount if you don't want an AC adapter (AC adapter Tax) 5. There's no discount if you don't want a quick reference guide (Documentation Tax) 6. There's no discount if you don't want a resource CD (Documentation Tax) 7. There's no discount if you don't want an SVideo cable (Svideo cable tax) 8. There's no discount if you don't want a mouse (Mouse Tax) 9. There's no discount if you don't want a cdrom drive (CD Drive Tax)
Do you act like this about other stuff too?
When I go buy a burger, I usually get it "plain". I don't expect a credit for the "lettuce, tomato, and mayo tax" or even the dreaded "ketchup, mustard, onion and pickle tax".
If I buy a pair of boots but I don't want the shoelaces (I don't like yellow boot laces) I don't expect a discount.
If I buy a multivitamin, but I already get enough vitamin C, I don't expect a discount.
If I buy my aformentioned burger (don't do slashdot on an empty stomach:-) at a drive through, really aren't I paying a "resturant tax" that pays for the dining room too? Why do I have to, in effect, pay rent for the dining room eventhough I am not using it?
Slashdot Mirror
I mean: Nat Rou1ly :)
Not really.
This is really funny...
"We're not professionals!" - "We don't possess special skills!" - "We have no management authority!" - "You need to pay us by the hour like burger flippers!"
"Hey - why'd you cut our pay? This is not fair!"
Waaaaa!!!! Cry me a river.
Exactly.
The funny part is that the same people, on both sides, once all believed that it was monopolistic and "unfair" for M$ to include their own products with Windows...
One monopoly is the same as another, just the geeks at the top look different.
Odd that the "Do no evil" company once had plans to listen in to your microphone and readily admits to storing your searches in an identifiable manner essentially forever.
I like any theory that involves ass worship!
Now what would this ceremony involve?
Hmmm...They had to mop something up...
Bad Sphinx!
At least we now also know what happened to the Sphinx's face!
I'm not sure why this is rated "funny"...
I graduated college at 33 after having spent my normal college years in the military and in industry.
When I started back to school one of my first thoughts was, "Man, these kids are stupid."
Then I realized that the whole thing is a matter of perspective.
When you are 18 and in college you think you are smart because you have similar levels of experience and knowledge relative to your peers.
Now, when you are 30 and peered with a bunch of 18 year olds of course they will seem a bit slow, they have not had the benefit of 12 extra years of life.
School is to teach the basics, they will work out the rest when they hit the real world.
Why do I believe you?
"Pornography steals a woman's innocence"
Actually, I am the one stealing their innocence (sorry).
I just throw porn around to throw CSI off my trail.
I particularly like how you "prove" your point by offering your family as property.
I'll "Bet" they feel special.
No, the only reason RedHat sells anything to corporate America is that they spread a BUNCH of FUD, just like Novell.
You also "need" a vendor to respond to CERTs and issue patches and service packs.
Let's say I have 300 computers. I want run Linux on these systems. What do I have to do?
Redhat tells me that I need to buy 300 copies of their OS. But what am I licensing? A bunch of GPL software. So, I am paying them for something that is free that they do not own in any way?
Maybe, like SuSE I am buying "support"? Now what if I bought 1 copy of SLES and put it on 300 machines? The EULA says that you can put the SLES OS on as many systems as you want. How about patches? Can I download then once from Novell and then apply them to 299 other systems?
I immediately thought the same thing. The lamers in these parts say Gates is evil and the google guys are "not evil".
Gates is busy giving away his (and Buffett's) money to make the world a better place, and the google guys are busy blowing their money on fancy gas guzzling, atmosphere destroying, toxin spewing transportation that makes a fleet of SUV's look positively green.
Someone has a warped sense of good and evil.
It's not fundementalists that have a problem with genetically modified stuff, it's Europeans. :-)
Amen!
To me a good analogy is the US stock market. Even though we have corporate crimes, billion dollar accounting frauds, and a host of other problems, when looked at through a wider, say 20 year perspective, you can almost always get 10% gains, and the business climate is worthy of trust and investment.
America has problems, what they are week to week, month to month, year to year, administration to administration, differs based on your personal politics, but when taken on a longer term America is still a better bet for defending freedom then some UN or other international committee.
Of course, if you divided up the membership in this international committee fairly, (one person, one vote) China would no longer have to worry about the whole firewall/Google deal, which might be handy for over 20% of the population of the Earth.
I'm no fan of ICANN, but internationalizing the running of the root servers and the establishment of DNS policy only sounds good on paper (kinda like allowing "any" nation to join the IWC did.
I use and like goDaddy.
Cheap and reliable. They do Linux/php and Windows/asp.
SIPRNet, kind of, is on the Internet. (SIPRNet can and often does (or at least did) ride as an encrypted VPN on NIPRNet. There are also supposed one-way gateways between SIPRNet and NIPRnet. NIPRnet is gatewayed to the Internet. I assume that viruses and such have made it to SIPRnet on numerous occasions in the past and will continue to, I expect that any actual information about these potential events would be classified.)
Really in much the same way, these devices are not normally on the Internet.
Normally you have a number of SCADA devices scattered around the country. These are connected back to the HQ in a couple of different ways, but often these ways are POTS or something like VSAT.
Now, at the HQ they have a public and a private network, as well as normal DMZ setups and a firewall/gateway between the private side and the public side.
The public side is mostly business types, accounting systems, etc. The private side is "production" stuff.
The systems that are allowed to connect to the SCADA stuff are on the private side and potentially even more firewalled off, but it is networked since SCADA is "Supervisory Control And Data Aquisition" and you want the info from the device, and you want to be able to issue commands back to the device. As soon as the network is added to the machine it is open for potential hacks, once the system(s) that can directly address the SCADA are compromised then the SCADA can be attacked.
This is not to say that CyberTerrorism is not FUD, much of it is.
Back in the mid 1990's after the end of the ColdWar all of the USAF general officers met at a yearly conference they call Corona (as I recall).
When they finished this conference that year they all came back all amped up over "CyberWarfare". They were excited because they had a new enemy. The brilliant thing about this new enemy was that they could spend money and have full careers forever "defending" against this new threat (and write a bunch of fluff pieces at air war college) and it would be almost impossible to prove or disprove the effectiveness of their efforts. Exactly like the cute rock/tiger story above.
The USAF immediately "claimed" this new "environment" and formed a "BattleLab" full of "our best and brightest" (read trainees straight out of high school and basic training). Then they started sending out panicy "block this IP" messages every time a ping from a foreign network hit a military firewall.
This was all kind of funny to watch. Unfortunately, ever since real war has taken all of the glory out of putzing around with PC's in darkened "Battle Labs", much of this nonsense has taken a back seat to the real deal.
It's all still being done I'm sure (why quit when you have funding), we just don't have to hear about it any more. (Also happily, one of the think tanks out east coined the term "weapon of mass annoyance" to describe "cyber" attacks, now no one except maybe Richard Clarke and Tom Ridge is beating that drum any more).
(In all fairness, it's not the DHS managers fault. They are being told this crap from their underlings who have to justify their existance. The managers are just political mouth pieces parroting stuff. They don't understand any of the technology or the ramifications of what they are hearing.)
Amen! You get the same stuff from people when IT mgmt wisely decide to implement cobit or ITIL.
"There is more paperwork, waaaaa!"
So what? There is a right way and a wrong way. The implementation of section 404 via best practice management is obviously a net gain.
The only reason the cost is so high out of the chute is that systems and software processes were allowed to get THAT bad between about 1995 and 2002!
>A computer that is firewalled doesn't have to worry so much about remote exploits and worms.
Famous last words...
Do us all a favor and go get the patches...
A machine that is powered off, disconnected from the network, and buried at the bottom of a disused diamond mine does not need to worry so much about worms and remote exploits.
The rest are potential zombies.
I can explain the whole deal if you want it spelled out (defense in depth), but it should be enough that MS knows their OS better then either of us knows it, and you should believe them when they say something is critical. (They also have a reason to downplay risks, so you should REALLY believe them since you know it has been bounced around Redmond for some time before it leaves the building as a critical vulnerability.)
Failing to apply the issued critical security patches on purpose (without a damn good reason) is professional legligence plain and simple.
>Look at the world's most popular forum system, PHPBB.
:-)
I don't think I would base my decision on what language to use for my enterprise on what buggy PHPBB uses.
>Yes, that runs on PHP. And people don't run LAMJ servers
I guess you are right, because in enterprise space they are often running LAOJ (OJLA? Linux, Apache, Oracle and Java). Have you ever heard of tomcat? Websphere?
>the P stands for PHP or Perl or Python
The P stood for PHP, perl is dieing in this space (nontrivial web apps) and python is still kinda nichey and most of the people I know who swore that python was the next big thing have now moved on to Ruby. I got bit once (with REBOL) so I tend to stay more mainstream. I also tend to think that OO scripting is kinda silly, sure it is a cool feature if you want to mess with it, but when you are basically forced into OO by the language it sucks.
>But I think that it will degrade because it will not have the ability to adapt like other languages
>can.
This agrument has been around for some time. However, so has Java and it seems to be adapting just fine, better then many open languages (Perl and the CPAN kitchen sink, PHP and the Zend/PEAR/configure mess, C99?), in my opinion, because, like BSD's, there is cohesive direction to the development. Do development for awhile. Sometimes (usually) things designed by committee are less good then those designed by a single competent analyst.
>If Sun goes down, methinks it would be all over for Java.
Don't worry, Sun will not go down. They've been "on the verge" since they were founded. Except for some cache problems with the USII ecache they build bulletproof servers and a damn fine OS. You should see a T2000 scream, 8 cores on a chip is a thing of beauty.
>But don't forget that the origin of all open projects is the desire to build a better product
I thought the "origin of all open projects" was RMS, and he's a commie.
>Wanting something is the root cause for it happening. That's not a guarantee, but it's as close as
>we can get.
So in the end McNealy DID create millions of jobs!
>That whizzing sound you've just heard was your credibility departing.
Rich...Hell, if it turns out that you are Dennis Ritchie, you're still an idiot.
So get off your ass and volunteer to go play the bugle for them! Bring your friends, it would do you all some good.
I volunteered for, and served on this detail for 5 years while I was in the USAF.
Why should they pay you? Didn't they prepay that bill with their service?
WOW! You have the most apt nick I have ever seen.
Now you can hate Microsoft all you want. You can also hate any of their management team you want.
However your "history" is still revisionist crap.
When you get to the point where you Google things then think that you lived through them you should lay off the computer for awhile.
While I welcome anyone who can get a TLD through ICANN (mind you more as proof for my assertion that unlimited tld's would not hurt the precious "infrastructure" in any way and that the whole TLD "rationing" thing is a conspiracy to control the price of domain names which should realistically be as close to $0.00 as possible, but I digress), this idea doesn't make a lot of sense to me.
.dir that they wanted awhile back. Then everyone who owns a domain will (as I recall) get a shadow domain name of domain.tld.dir so that you would have company.com and get company.com.dir for free, and it would be the public space to access your directory (to whatever degree you wanted to share, or a pointer to the directory or whatever.) and apps and people would always know where to look.
If you think through the plan for this domain, why would you want to limit it to just phone numbers? What about IM names? What about e-mail addresses? Physical addresses? etc.
Isn't this just a silly way to implement a directory service (al biet not a very user friendly one)?
Didn't we already go down this route with the ITU years ago and get X.500 and ultimately LDAP (and happily OpenLDAP)?
Maybe it is time to give Novell the
Nice response.
Try reading this again when you are sober.
You're wrong. Dell has the right to sell their computers in any configuration they want to. They also have the right to freely make whatever deals they want. If some money changes hands behind the scene between them and one of their suppliers, that is their business, not yours.
:-) at a drive through, really aren't I paying a "resturant tax" that pays for the dining room too? Why do I have to, in effect, pay rent for the dining room eventhough I am not using it?
You have the right to buy your system from whomever you want.
MS forcing Dell into a deal is wrong.
Dell forcing you to buy a computer would be wrong.
You requiring Dell to sell you a computer on your terms is perhaps ideal, but if their terms are not to your liking then move on.
They offer a (damn fine, well priced) product, buy it or not.
Besides...There is no discounted price for "no OS" laptops, and you aren't going to find a better deal on a better laptop anywhere, so tell yourself that Windows was free, a gift from Dell and Microsoft on the occasion of you getting a new laptop if you will.
Other things that you might want to whine about:
1. There's no discount if you don't want wifi (WiFi Tax)
2. There's no discount if you don't want irda (IRdA Tax)
3. There's no discount if you don't want a modem (Modem Tax)
4. There's no discount if you don't want an AC adapter (AC adapter Tax)
5. There's no discount if you don't want a quick reference guide (Documentation Tax)
6. There's no discount if you don't want a resource CD (Documentation Tax)
7. There's no discount if you don't want an SVideo cable (Svideo cable tax)
8. There's no discount if you don't want a mouse (Mouse Tax)
9. There's no discount if you don't want a cdrom drive (CD Drive Tax)
Do you act like this about other stuff too?
When I go buy a burger, I usually get it "plain". I don't expect a credit for the "lettuce, tomato, and mayo tax" or even the dreaded "ketchup, mustard, onion and pickle tax".
If I buy a pair of boots but I don't want the shoelaces (I don't like yellow boot laces) I don't expect a discount.
If I buy a multivitamin, but I already get enough vitamin C, I don't expect a discount.
If I buy my aformentioned burger (don't do slashdot on an empty stomach
Get real.
No, maybe in cottage industry style manufacturing it would be.
Dell is all about low margin, high volume, automated manufacturing. If you get the chance go visit their factory.