I agree 100%. Unfortunatly there is a whole subculture, usually amongst teenagers that think that all software and data should be free. Copyright infringement has been devalued in the popular media to the point where many people dont see the harm that it does. Invariably those who churn out the 'copright violation isnt theft' bull dont actually rely on making digital content for a living, or are clueless about how the market system works in their industry. My personal hatred is those who say "nobody owes you a living" when I point out that people should buy, rather than steal my games, if they like them enough to want the full versions. apparently my counter response of "nobody owes you my games" goes right over their head. Its refreshing to see some posts from slashdotters that understand the rights of the content creators, and why they must be defended.
"In practice DRM has extraordinarily high costs, changing something that could be used by billions to something restricted to much smaller number with high overheads."
by definition you are arguing for a rise in the price of software, games, DVDs etc. If we sell a tenth as many units, we need 10 times the price.
"People have been sharing and copying with friends and acquaintances since the dawn of time" yes. friends. not a random list of 3000 people across the globe in their emule queue. Thats the difference. I can share stuff with maybe 20,000 people within months now. That NEVER happened before. Surely you must see its a whole order-of-magnitude difference.
"Most people would agree that software vendors are entitled to some reward for their efforts"
SOME? how generous of you. How about people who make furniture, do they get 'some' or what they can command in a free market. what is it about people making digital products that means they must act like beggars?
"Personally, I'd like to see it legally mandated that all software sales must include the source"
insane. I rpesume you would like all electronic products to be sold with complete schematics and manufacturing instructions too. How exactly is anyone going to bother with R&D if the fruits of such research are so easily copied?
Given a choice between what we have now and no DRM or IP law. Ill go with what we have now. I LIKE new games, DVDs, software etc to be made. Ideally, I'd prefer more relaxed IP law, and controlled DRM, with stronger enforcement, but more end-user rights.
Amen. Personally my software doesnt actually use DRM,because as a downloadable product, its hard to implement without expensive server stuff, but I fully understand why people use it. I dont mind needing a CD or an online activation system to run software, because it helps reduce casual piracy and keeps the software developers in business. Much DRM is evil, rootkits, CD + online code (hello battlefild 2), unskippable DVD adverts etc. But the *principle* of DRM, and especially software copy protection is essential if you are to have a viable software industry in the long term. The vast vast majority of people will just take what they can copy and never pay a penny. without copy protection, IP rights and DRM we wouldnt have a hundreth of the software we have available these days. Free software is cool, and obviously has its place, but its not a replacement for the mainstream software industry.
Games are very cheap to make. What you mean is 3D games with the latest graphics tech. Thats a totally different situation. A good game is a good game, even if its *shock* a 2D one. If you accept from the start that you are going to make a 2D game, youll be suprised at how cheaply and quickly you can make something fun and popular. At least thats my experience from making these two: http://www.starshiptycoon.com/ http://www.democracygame.com/
this is nonsense. you are saying that people taking software they dont pay for actually helps that software become the de facto standard. for what? for everyone else to take it for free as well? Now that doesnt sound like much of a business model to me. If this business model worked so well, people would be giving away the first 10,000 copies of photoshop. but you may notice they do not.
I dont care if you think "i wouldnt have bought it anyway". In that case, dont use it, you have no right to take other peoples work for free unless they allow you to do so expressly. Software is not food. It is not water, it is not shelter, it is a luxury good. The same goes for music and films and games.
Your whole philosophy is based on the idea thats its fine for people to take stuff without paying for it, because it creates a market where OTHER PEOPLE will pay for it and keep the business in profit. I always notice that the freeloaders who state this view always mentally put themselves in the 'getting it for free' group, and everyone else who they look down upon goes in to the 'paying for that software so I dont have to ' group.
interesting. Are you the same kind of person who would then complain that the vietnamese company can undercut americans and take jobs by outsourcing I wonder?
in both cases, the company making the product needs to sell units in order to make money. just because one can be digitally copied and one cant does not change this fact.
Your argument is useless, because it does not scale up at all. If 1 person copies photoshop, it may not seem to matter, but if everyone copies it, adobe go out of business. So how exactly is this a viable way for the economy to run, or is it only you and your friends who get to act as free-riders?
You cant base an economy on the idea that people dont purchase stuff because its digital. Nobody would have an incentive to make anything. Why cant people see this damned obvious fact? I suspect you see it all too well, but dont want to spoil the party whereby you get to take everyone elses work for free, subsidised by law-abiding customers.
"Part of adapting is adapting to your competitors. If your competitors are pirating software, they're gaining an advantage over you. With piracy in it's semi-legal state, it's bad business not to do it."
ah cool, so fuck whats legal then. If my competitors are mugging my employees on the way home and cutting their hands off to stop them working, maybe we should do that back to them too eh?
If your competitors are breaking the law to get an advantage over you, they should be fined by the govt and bought into line, thats way better than your "fuck the rules, every man for himself" attitude to business.
BTW since when was pirating "semi-legal" outside of your own mind?
thats ironic, because the smaller companies whose software is much-pirated are also "guys struggling to keep their businesses afloat from day to day" and the fact that so many cheapskates use stolen software rather than pay for it doesnt help. People steal software because they can get away with it, not because they are struggling. Do those struggling businesses use stolen chairs and desks too?
Revolutions shouldnt be neccesary (which is good, because sicne the age of the pitchfork has changed to the age of the apache helicopter, peasant revolts have got waaaay harder). What is needed is a more participatory democracy. You need a) everyone to vote b) every vote to count c) people to vote based on impartial information
A) can be done by legal means, b) requires proportional representation and c) requires major shakeups in party funding, political advertising etc.
Nobody has this perfect, but australians HAVE to vote by law, and even the almost-as-bad-as-the-us UK has a ban on political TV and radio adverts. I like to think that acts as a good limit to the extent to which politicians can brain wash us into believeing what they say.
People don't see electoral reform as a major issue, but I'd suggest it is THE issue, because once its fixed, the chances of getting everything else fixed is totally transformed.
people *do* value money over their own safety, because 99.9% of people dont have a grip on probability. Thats why people play roulette and buy lottery tickets. People never think a car crash will happen to them. I wouldnt drem of driving a car without a seatbelt, I simply wouldn't feel safe doing that. For the same reason, I wouldnt ride a motorbike without a crash helmet. Is that a freedom issue too? I was part of a 4 car shunt once (i was stationary, some drunken loon went into the car behind me). Without a seatbelt, I'd have gone through the windscreen, might have even died. I guess I'd have died for freedom?
You should give that odyssey game a try if you like something different. You are a god who has to steer ships around obstacles from A to B by generating wind through mouse movements, and waving your hands over the seas. Its quite a nicely coded little physics thing, and a superb idea. That sort of thing should have been coded into games like Black and White or age of mythology.
why bother? why not go with a decentralised system of solar and wind and geothermal energy sources instead? Then there is way less power transit, and thus way less loses.
Who says Indie games dont go retail? www.starshiptycoon.com is on sale in the US by Take 2 www.democracygame.com is on sale throughout europe. Slinging multiple games on 1 disk just sounds like a way to ensure the developer earns little or nothing from the sale.
Its a total ripoff. When i bought my bose headphones, I imported them from the US, paid the delivery AND the tax, and it was still about £50 cheaper than buying thm in my high street. If I had saved £1 by doing this, I'd still do it, just to avoid giving my custom to the rip-off scumbags selling in the high street. And online sellers are no better in the UK. You type in a UK address and the price suddenyl shoots way up. I sell my games at he same price globally, which means in the UK people get a bargain thanks to the insane dollar-pound rate right now. I know many people use country detection scripts to charge different nationalities different amounts, but I hate being on the receiving end so much I wont do it. Needless to say I wont buy a PS3 at that price (or any price, given the appeal of the Wii)
and it needs that.NET framework bollox too. Sorry, but I got enough crap on my machine as it is. Ill wait till I buy a new PC to get vista, then have it pre-installed.
Yes on that last bit he was spot on. But their assumption is that any game that isn't 'triple A budget' is some kind of amateurish niche. I may be overreacting, but I've heard the same 'indies are doomed, dont even try' mantra from the big boys for at least 5 years, and its less applicable now than it ever has been.
When I worked at Lionhead, I used to get this lecture every year or so. I even heard it from peter before I started work there. It goes like this:
Indie gaming is doomed you wont sell any copies nobody wants small games you will end up penniless and hungry
It always was, always is, and probably always will be total bullshit. Yet peter (and now warren) crank it out for one very good reason
THEY DONT WANT TO LOSE GOOD STAFF
the best devs you have are the ones most likely to go start their own company. Lionhead has lost its entire R&D team and most of its good coders (fable team excepted) in the last 6 months, mainly to start their own companies. Peter has always tried to tell people 'for their own good' not to try it.
Funnily enough, when I left them, my indie game (www.democracygame.com) was successfull and profitable, and pays my living expenses right now. In contrast, Black and White 2 and The Movies made way less than they cost to make. I think its desperately sad that 'big name designers' who once were passionate about making great games now go OUT OF THEIR WAY to ensure other people dont do what they did. Fuck em.
Agreed 100% dude. I would happily be charged per second to play a MMORPG. maybe 0.000001c or whatever. Why not? its crazy for people playing 6 hours a day to pay the same as those playing 1 hour a week, and actively discourages the casual gamer. If I was pitching an MMO I'd make it a free download, with a graduated scale of fees, easily switchable between rates. Maybe you wouldnt be able to push beyond the current level for unlimited play, but charging someone maybe $4 a month for up to 20 hours a month, with an automatic 10$ month bump beyond that seems a great plan to me.
so the solution is for everytone to work in the conditions and pay of a guy in india, yet pay silicon valley rents? I dont think so. This is the kind of things that unions exist to fight against, so if your anti union, you have to accept that 3rd world working practices and conditions are the end result.
Slashdot Mirror
I agree 100%. Unfortunatly there is a whole subculture, usually amongst teenagers that think that all software and data should be free. Copyright infringement has been devalued in the popular media to the point where many people dont see the harm that it does. Invariably those who churn out the 'copright violation isnt theft' bull dont actually rely on making digital content for a living, or are clueless about how the market system works in their industry. My personal hatred is those who say "nobody owes you a living" when I point out that people should buy, rather than steal my games, if they like them enough to want the full versions. apparently my counter response of "nobody owes you my games" goes right over their head.
Its refreshing to see some posts from slashdotters that understand the rights of the content creators, and why they must be defended.
"In practice DRM has extraordinarily high costs, changing something that could be used by billions to something restricted to much smaller number with high overheads."
by definition you are arguing for a rise in the price of software, games, DVDs etc. If we sell a tenth as many units, we need 10 times the price.
"People have been sharing and copying with friends and acquaintances since the dawn of time"
yes. friends. not a random list of 3000 people across the globe in their emule queue. Thats the difference. I can share stuff with maybe 20,000 people within months now. That NEVER happened before.
Surely you must see its a whole order-of-magnitude difference.
"Most people would agree that software vendors are entitled to some reward for their efforts"
SOME? how generous of you. How about people who make furniture, do they get 'some' or what they can command in a free market. what is it about people making digital products that means they must act like beggars?
"Personally, I'd like to see it legally mandated that all software sales must include the source"
insane. I rpesume you would like all electronic products to be sold with complete schematics and manufacturing instructions too. How exactly is anyone going to bother with R&D if the fruits of such research are so easily copied?
Given a choice between what we have now and no DRM or IP law. Ill go with what we have now. I LIKE new games, DVDs, software etc to be made. Ideally, I'd prefer more relaxed IP law, and controlled DRM, with stronger enforcement, but more end-user rights.
Amen. Personally my software doesnt actually use DRM,because as a downloadable product, its hard to implement without expensive server stuff, but I fully understand why people use it. I dont mind needing a CD or an online activation system to run software, because it helps reduce casual piracy and keeps the software developers in business.
Much DRM is evil, rootkits, CD + online code (hello battlefild 2), unskippable DVD adverts etc. But the *principle* of DRM, and especially software copy protection is essential if you are to have a viable software industry in the long term.
The vast vast majority of people will just take what they can copy and never pay a penny. without copy protection, IP rights and DRM we wouldnt have a hundreth of the software we have available these days.
Free software is cool, and obviously has its place, but its not a replacement for the mainstream software industry.
Games are very cheap to make. What you mean is 3D games with the latest graphics tech. Thats a totally different situation. A good game is a good game, even if its *shock* a 2D one. If you accept from the start that you are going to make a 2D game, youll be suprised at how cheaply and quickly you can make something fun and popular. At least thats my experience from making these two:
http://www.starshiptycoon.com/
http://www.democracygame.com/
this is nonsense. you are saying that people taking software they dont pay for actually helps that software become the de facto standard. for what?
for everyone else to take it for free as well?
Now that doesnt sound like much of a business model to me. If this business model worked so well, people would be giving away the first 10,000 copies of photoshop. but you may notice they do not.
I dont care if you think "i wouldnt have bought it anyway". In that case, dont use it, you have no right to take other peoples work for free unless they allow you to do so expressly.
Software is not food. It is not water, it is not shelter, it is a luxury good. The same goes for music and films and games.
Your whole philosophy is based on the idea thats its fine for people to take stuff without paying for it, because it creates a market where OTHER PEOPLE will pay for it and keep the business in profit. I always notice that the freeloaders who state this view always mentally put themselves in the 'getting it for free' group, and everyone else who they look down upon goes in to the 'paying for that software so I dont have to ' group.
interesting. Are you the same kind of person who would then complain that the vietnamese company can undercut americans and take jobs by outsourcing I wonder?
so all big companies should stop making software then.
well done, you just killed off the software business.
in both cases, the company making the product needs to sell units in order to make money.
just because one can be digitally copied and one cant does not change this fact.
Your argument is useless, because it does not scale up at all. If 1 person copies photoshop, it may not seem to matter, but if everyone copies it, adobe go out of business. So how exactly is this a viable way for the economy to run, or is it only you and your friends who get to act as free-riders?
You cant base an economy on the idea that people dont purchase stuff because its digital. Nobody would have an incentive to make anything. Why cant people see this damned obvious fact?
I suspect you see it all too well, but dont want to spoil the party whereby you get to take everyone elses work for free, subsidised by law-abiding customers.
"we people" would be people that make software for a living, and have bills to pay.
Some people make chairs for a living. Some people make data. Both of them go to work each day, both of them have bills to pay.
Explain to me why one of these people gets paid for each sale, and one of them has to go hungry?
"Part of adapting is adapting to your competitors. If your competitors are pirating software, they're gaining an advantage over you. With piracy in it's semi-legal state, it's bad business not to do it."
ah cool, so fuck whats legal then. If my competitors are mugging my employees on the way home and cutting their hands off to stop them working, maybe we should do that back to them too eh?
If your competitors are breaking the law to get an advantage over you, they should be fined by the govt and bought into line, thats way better than your "fuck the rules, every man for himself" attitude to business.
BTW since when was pirating "semi-legal" outside of your own mind?
thats ironic, because the smaller companies whose software is much-pirated are also "guys struggling to keep their businesses afloat from day to day" and the fact that so many cheapskates use stolen software rather than pay for it doesnt help.
People steal software because they can get away with it, not because they are struggling. Do those struggling businesses use stolen chairs and desks too?
Revolutions shouldnt be neccesary (which is good, because sicne the age of the pitchfork has changed to the age of the apache helicopter, peasant revolts have got waaaay harder). What is needed is a more participatory democracy. You need
a) everyone to vote
b) every vote to count
c) people to vote based on impartial information
A) can be done by legal means, b) requires proportional representation and c) requires major shakeups in party funding, political advertising etc.
Nobody has this perfect, but australians HAVE to vote by law, and even the almost-as-bad-as-the-us UK has a ban on political TV and radio adverts. I like to think that acts as a good limit to the extent to which politicians can brain wash us into believeing what they say.
People don't see electoral reform as a major issue, but I'd suggest it is THE issue, because once its fixed, the chances of getting everything else fixed is totally transformed.
people *do* value money over their own safety, because 99.9% of people dont have a grip on probability. Thats why people play roulette and buy lottery tickets. People never think a car crash will happen to them.
I wouldnt drem of driving a car without a seatbelt, I simply wouldn't feel safe doing that. For the same reason, I wouldnt ride a motorbike without a crash helmet. Is that a freedom issue too?
I was part of a 4 car shunt once (i was stationary, some drunken loon went into the car behind me). Without a seatbelt, I'd have gone through the windscreen, might have even died. I guess I'd have died for freedom?
You should give that odyssey game a try if you like something different. You are a god who has to steer ships around obstacles from A to B by generating wind through mouse movements, and waving your hands over the seas. Its quite a nicely coded little physics thing, and a superb idea. That sort of thing should have been coded into games like Black and White or age of mythology.
if only there were more people like you. Agreed 100% but right out of mod points.
and you lose the susceptibility to system wide attack of failure.
why bother? why not go with a decentralised system of solar and wind and geothermal energy sources instead? Then there is way less power transit, and thus way less loses.
Who says Indie games dont go retail?
www.starshiptycoon.com is on sale in the US by Take 2
www.democracygame.com is on sale throughout europe.
Slinging multiple games on 1 disk just sounds like a way to ensure the developer earns little or nothing from the sale.
with the schools approval, one presumes?
Its a total ripoff. When i bought my bose headphones, I imported them from the US, paid the delivery AND the tax, and it was still about £50 cheaper than buying thm in my high street.
If I had saved £1 by doing this, I'd still do it, just to avoid giving my custom to the rip-off scumbags selling in the high street.
And online sellers are no better in the UK. You type in a UK address and the price suddenyl shoots way up.
I sell my games at he same price globally, which means in the UK people get a bargain thanks to the insane dollar-pound rate right now. I know many people use country detection scripts to charge different nationalities different amounts, but I hate being on the receiving end so much I wont do it.
Needless to say I wont buy a PS3 at that price (or any price, given the appeal of the Wii)
and it needs that .NET framework bollox too. Sorry, but I got enough crap on my machine as it is. Ill wait till I buy a new PC to get vista, then have it pre-installed.
Yes on that last bit he was spot on. But their assumption is that any game that isn't 'triple A budget' is some kind of amateurish niche. I may be overreacting, but I've heard the same 'indies are doomed, dont even try' mantra from the big boys for at least 5 years, and its less applicable now than it ever has been.
When I worked at Lionhead, I used to get this lecture every year or so. I even heard it from peter before I started work there. It goes like this:
Indie gaming is doomed
you wont sell any copies
nobody wants small games
you will end up penniless and hungry
It always was, always is, and probably always will be total bullshit.
Yet peter (and now warren) crank it out for one very good reason
THEY DONT WANT TO LOSE GOOD STAFF
the best devs you have are the ones most likely to go start their own company. Lionhead has lost its entire R&D team and most of its good coders (fable team excepted) in the last 6 months, mainly to start their own companies. Peter has always tried to tell people 'for their own good' not to try it.
Funnily enough, when I left them, my indie game (www.democracygame.com) was successfull and profitable, and pays my living expenses right now. In contrast, Black and White 2 and The Movies made way less than they cost to make.
I think its desperately sad that 'big name designers' who once were passionate about making great games now go OUT OF THEIR WAY to ensure other people dont do what they did.
Fuck em.
Agreed 100% dude. I would happily be charged per second to play a MMORPG. maybe 0.000001c or whatever. Why not? its crazy for people playing 6 hours a day to pay the same as those playing 1 hour a week, and actively discourages the casual gamer. If I was pitching an MMO I'd make it a free download, with a graduated scale of fees, easily switchable between rates. Maybe you wouldnt be able to push beyond the current level for unlimited play, but charging someone maybe $4 a month for up to 20 hours a month, with an automatic 10$ month bump beyond that seems a great plan to me.
so the solution is for everytone to work in the conditions and pay of a guy in india, yet pay silicon valley rents? I dont think so.
This is the kind of things that unions exist to fight against, so if your anti union, you have to accept that 3rd world working practices and conditions are the end result.