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U.S. Pressures ISPs on Data Retention

packetmon writes "According to Wired's Declan McCullagh 'In a private meeting with industry representatives, Gonzales, Mueller and other senior members of the Justice Department said Internet service providers should retain subscriber information and network data for two years ... A more extensive mandate would require companies to keep track of e-mail messages sent, Web pages visited and perhaps even instant-messaging correspondents.'"

221 comments

  1. wow by joe+155 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    that's a lot of data... I wonder how many hard drives it would take to keep that much. besides, it would be so much data that it would be really had to sort through it all in order to try and prevent any crimes (I'm assuming this is an anti-terrorist thing - as most crazy freedom reducing laws these days are)... all this would do is after someone had blown themselves up and you knew who they were you could say "so in this instance "flower" meant bomb... but because of the cellular nature of these groups we're no closer to stopping any other attack"

    --
    *''I can't believe it's not a hyperlink.''
    1. Re:wow by jacksonj04 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      If yuo run a mid-sized network just get your router/firewall to log everything that goes past to gat an actual idea of how much this is. I tried it a while back on my home network (3 users, slightly above average on each) and got some stupidly large volume of data.

      --
      How many people can read hex if only you and dead people can read hex?
    2. Re:wow by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      it would be so much data that it would be really had to sort through it all in order to try and prevent any crimes

      I really think this should be delegated to the technical experts at the RIAA-headquarter. Only they have the technical expertise and legal competence to use this data to prevent gross crimes against humanity (like stealing $5 from George Lucas, thereby completely ruining him).

    3. Re:wow by SargeantLobes · · Score: 1
      Exactley, searching through two years of (pgp encoded) data is impossible. Especially if people make sure there's a lot of it (by seeding linux iso's for instance). And stopping terrorism (which I'm presuming this bill is being 'marketed' with) is even more impossible.

      This does nothing, the criminals will start using encryption, and we'll have to start paying our ISP's for all that storage. It will only make the internet more expensive and Western Digital a lot richer.

      --
      I do love "!" but not as much as I love "..."...
    4. Re:wow by jcupitt65 · · Score: 2, Informative
      The UK (and now the EU, thanks T. Blair!) have data retention already in law (though not yet implemented AFAIK).

      They don't retain the data: the volume would be far too high (as you say). They just (!!) track who mails who, who IMs with whom, and the websites you visit. Just liike an itemised phone bill, but covering the internet. The websites thing is unclear: I don't know if they're planning to just keep www.mybank.com, or whether the whole mybank.com/transaction.php?cardno=2345876349583498 will be retained.

      Anyway, data volume isn't a particular problem, and I imagine the US is planning the same idea.

    5. Re:wow by mattpointblank · · Score: 1

      If that's how they pass their variables, they certainly won't be MyBank.

    6. Re:wow by Professor_UNIX · · Score: 0, Flamebait
      that's a lot of data... I wonder how many hard drives it would take to keep that much.

      I'm sure the NSA will conveniently offer a high bandwidth pipe into all the ISPs to collect the data for them and store it in their datacenter. I can't wait until 2008 so we can vote these clowns out of office and forget about this whole terrorism nonsense. If you ignore those jokers and don't give them the attention they want they'll eventually go away, but if you keep fighting them like Israel does they'll keep attacking to stay in the headlines. For example, where is the IRA these days? I haven't heard them bombing many places lately.

    7. Re:wow by Cicero382 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Well, I can't speak for "them", but our firewall saves *every* packet that passes through it for security reasons (don't ask - it's a client thing). It's mirrored, but I dug my heels in when they wanted backups.. Why?

      We ran a trial period to look at the issues (who wouldn't?) What we found was this:
      (Hops over to firewall to get the stats..)

      Over the 4 week trial period we captured 521Gb of data. Since we had only allocated 500Gb for the whole thing - this was worrying.

      BTW - we use a full-duplex satellite link 'cos DSL isn't available in this part of Italy and also it has a *ridiculously* wide bandwith. We don't really care about latency. Well, some of my staff who would rather be playing Quake probably mind..

      Sorry - I digress.

      My point is: We are a company which is geared towards storing and processing very large amounts of data (>120 Tb). We use the internet to access various DBs for our work. We're not what one would call a large organisation. But there are plenty like us and many more even *bigger*! And this is just corporate use.

      So, how the hell is *any* ISP expected to store even the most trivial details of IP transactions run through it? Just "FTP from here to there"? What use is that?

      If we're struggling to deal with saving this type of transaction data for ourselves (with our storage capacity) I can guarantee that the "powers-that-be" haven't got a snowball in hell's chance of retaining anything useful.

      Even if the collection of the data was justified.

      Even if there was any way they could process it.

    8. Re:wow by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Instead of claiming this is for National Security, then are claiming it is to help stop things like pediphiles and child abuse. Of course we all know that whatever they claim it is for, will only be used for that, and that only the FBI would be able to request such data...all in the name to protect privacy of citizens and other civil liberties.

    9. Re:wow by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting
      I'm assuming this is an anti-terrorist thing - as most crazy freedom reducing laws these days are

      Lots of people assume this, this is why I keep pointing out that this idea predates 9/11:



      I guess this won`t be the last time I point this out, but some help would be appreciated, so feel free to bookmark these ans slap them around the ears of anyone who argues this is only for terrorist..... (fineprint:and some other criminals) And If the EU decision surounding these plans is any guide, then do not expect these plans to be pushed trough as Democratically as possible. The only thing diffrend in the US might be a strong industry lobby that may ensure this is paid for with tax dollars.
    10. Re:wow by 1u3hr · · Score: 1
      I'm assuming this is an anti-terrorist thing

      No, it's a child porn thing. RTFA. But these excuses are interchangeable; they'll be using it to track down everyone from Mafioso to school truants.

    11. Re:wow by Bj�rn · · Score: 1
      The UK really stands out as the most pro-surveillance country in the world. There are also plans to monitory the movement of every car and to keep this information available in databases for at least two years. I can only hope this is not exported to the rest of the EU. Here is a short article about it.

      For some reason I keep expecting that sinister music from the Twilight Zone to start playing.

      --
      Never express yourself more clearly than you are able to think. --Niels Bohr
    12. Re:wow by shenanigans · · Score: 1

      This has nothing to do with preventing anything. This is a direct attack on the internet as a free medium. Think about it, the net is the only medium not yet under "control" by the government, truely free media has been essentially non-existant in the US for decades. Now the net is threatening to change that, and they are fighting back with everything they've got. The fact that this kind of legislation is proposed, despite the obvious negative effect it will have on private business economy, shows that they are really getting desperate.

    13. Re:wow by misleb · · Score: 1

      Indeed it would be quite unreasonable to simply log all packets. What you'd want to do (and many ISPs do) is keep a log of "flows." In other words, each connection, its source and destination, number of packets sent, etc. That is much more reasonable. Although I don't know how useful it is for anything other than gathering statistics on network usage.

      -matthew

      --
      "THERE IS NO JUSTICE, THERE IS ONLY ME." -Death
    14. Re:wow by misleb · · Score: 1

      Do you know what kind of software they are using to extract IM source/destinations? I guess they can use their own SMTP logs to keep track of mail (assming the "terrorist" uses the ISPs mail servers), but it would be a lot of work to extract meaningful data out of any given TCP/UDP flow at the appplication layer.

      -matthew

      --
      "THERE IS NO JUSTICE, THERE IS ONLY ME." -Death
    15. Re:wow by TheGavster · · Score: 2, Informative

      The thing that scares me about the car logging isn't so much the logging (which is worrisome on its own), but the plan to automatically correlate that data with the movement of cars found to be involved in terrorist incidents after the fact. So if your car was near the terrorist car for 50 miles leading up to the attack, now you're a person of interest, all because you kept to the right and didn't pass.

      --
      "Because Science" is one step from "Because old book". Try "Because of my experiment testing my falsifiable assertion".
    16. Re:wow by ultranova · · Score: 1

      So if your car was near the terrorist car for 50 miles leading up to the attack, now you're a person of interest, all because you kept to the right and didn't pass.

      If you keep to the right and don't pass for 50 miles in the UK, then you certainly are a suspicious person and the police has quite legitimate reason to have a little chat with you ;).

      --

      Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.

    17. Re:wow by LoadWB · · Score: 1

      It definitely is not about terrorism. I was not before, but terrorism gives the govm't a new card to play. The first time I heard about this as back in the 90's, and it was about child pornography, illicit business practices, and so forth. Whatever the guise, it was for our "protection."

      I think it is funny that as new technology comes around, old technology seems to get forgotten. For instance, the buzz words I mostly see today are MySpace, BitTorrent, P2P, and chat rooms. Apparently we have forgotten about Usenet and various other sources. Understandably, we focus on the most popular technologies because those are what is in popular use, and that is where you will find the easy picks. But movie and music trading, child pornography, and plenty of other stuff still run rampant in the news groups, IRC, and other long-forgotten methods of Internet communication.

      I imagine resurgence of the BBS. Ah, I remember the days of downloading plenty of dirty pictures to print for my friends. hrmmmm The underground BBS network, trading in plenty of contraband. Of course, the most reliable distribution for such items would be to carry them across the Internet. I wonder if the data retention would cover ALL ports, or only popular ports, like SMTP, HTTP, and so forth? SSH? SSL? IPSec? PPTP? This is will not be like checking ID cards at the door to a club.

    18. Re:wow by epee1221 · · Score: 1

      Don't forget about digging up dirt on political opponents :-P

      --
      "The use-mention distinction" is not "enforced here."
    19. Re:wow by jcupitt65 · · Score: 1

      The US has access to our logs. I wonder if we'll get access to theirs?

    20. Re:wow by TheGavster · · Score: 1

      I suppose that in this particular case, a system to track and prosecute people who keep to the right would be a positive development. /Ignorant American

      --
      "Because Science" is one step from "Because old book". Try "Because of my experiment testing my falsifiable assertion".
    21. Re:wow by issinho · · Score: 1

      Look at it this way. If you are in court being charged with, let's say, internet cracking, if your Prosecuters were to have a log of everything you've done in the past two years through your ISP, how easy do you think it would be to defend yourself? It's like saying to the Police Officer that you weren't selling Dope when he has your past 10 sells caught on tape! That is what the government is after here.

      Now, personally, I think that this line of thought will breed more people hacking into wireless networks to avoid being "spied upon". I think it's interesting to note that while the government (albeit they have good intentions) imposes tighter regulations and laws on the citizens, our crime rate goes up and there are more and more people who circumvent the whole process. I don't like the idea that anyone is going to have logs of what I do, or say, on the internet only because the ISPs aren't 100% secure. So, if they are going to keep 2 years worth of logs ( I work in a Data Center, and Trust me, Isles of SAN is normal, okay? ) what's to keep the crackers and Black Hats of the world from breaking in and stealing my credit card that's onfile? I don't think so!

    22. Re:wow by misleb · · Score: 1

      Nah, I don't buy it. I don't think it is reasonable for an ISP to store 2 years worth of full packet dumps of traffic. Just like the phone company can't reasonably record every phone call. Sure, they have records of the phone calls themselves, but that is a lot different than having them recorded. Same for an ISP. You can log connections easy enough. But I think dumping all the data to disk takes a lot more storage and CPU power than you think. And then you have to be able to index it and find what you want later!

      -matthew

      --
      "THERE IS NO JUSTICE, THERE IS ONLY ME." -Death
  2. Why not just follow the formula in 1984? by Mostly+a+lurker · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Rather than put all of the onus on spying on the population on third parties, such as telcos, credit card companies, ISPs and airlines, why not just implement the solution in 1984. You just install two-way TVs in everyone's homes and offices. That way you can efficiently monitor what everyone is doing in a centralised fashion. The data would be recorded for later playback if needed. As a safeguard, officials would only be able to examine the recordings if they obtained a court order (unless, of course, the President decided it was necessary to the fight against terror to waive the requirement for a court order). After all, if you are not doing anything wrong, why object to such a system?

    1. Re:Why not just follow the formula in 1984? by BobSutan · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Why not? Because they haven't boiled the frog slowly enough yet to get away with it.

      --
      "On a scale from 1 to 10, people are stupid"
    2. Re:Why not just follow the formula in 1984? by Fire+Dragon · · Score: 1

      After all, if you are not doing anything wrong, why object to such a system?

      That would just be their way of not paying for my famous home videos.

      They could also boost their finances be creating new pay-per-view system. I mean, if the techonology is already there and nobody has nothing to hide, why shouldn't they support their goverment by allowing other people to watch you.

    3. Re:Why not just follow the formula in 1984? by Alicat1194 · · Score: 1
      After all, if you are not doing anything wrong, why object to such a system?

      Because no one, no matter how heinous their crime, deserves to have to see me watching tv in my dodgy PJs.

      --
      You can learn a lot about a person if you just take the time to inject them with sodium pentathol
    4. Re:Why not just follow the formula in 1984? by ozmanjusri · · Score: 1
      You just install two-way TVs in everyone's homes and offices.

      Do you have a webcam?
      Just askin...

      --
      "I've got more toys than Teruhisa Kitahara."
    5. Re:Why not just follow the formula in 1984? by pjay_dml · · Score: 1

      Oh it's comming don't you worry, they are just waiting for the right moment, when everyone is too scared to say anything against such ideas, after all "if you are not doing anything wrong, why should you worry about it?"

    6. Re:Why not just follow the formula in 1984? by da · · Score: 1

      Without wishing to blow my own trumpet (pa-paah! dammit!) I remember observing in conversation a couple of years ago that when enough people have webcams, 1984 will have arrived...

      --
      I reserve the right to be wrong.
    7. Re:Why not just follow the formula in 1984? by BobSutan · · Score: 1

      I forgot to mention that the 2-way TVs are still being developed. Once they're in production however...

      --
      "On a scale from 1 to 10, people are stupid"
    8. Re:Why not just follow the formula in 1984? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But wait... it's government OF the people, FOR the people! Can't you see that we're boiling ourselves? If we want to stop boiling ourselves, then we have to convince ourselves to stop boiling ourselves! We need to go back to that moment when we voluntarily decided to boil ourselves, together, as the collective borg that we are, and simply reconsider the whole idea of boiling!

    9. Re:Why not just follow the formula in 1984? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, well.....

      at least you can turn off your webcam. In 1984 you couldn't turn off the telescreen unless you were a ranking party member.

    10. Re:Why not just follow the formula in 1984? by dhasenan · · Score: 1

      But then who controls the pot?

      Think of the possibilities, man!

    11. Re:Why not just follow the formula in 1984? by mycall · · Score: 1

      You mean webcams and blogs? I think people are providing enough for the government as it stands. yeah, audio feeds would help..

    12. Re:Why not just follow the formula in 1984? by mycall · · Score: 1

      That's a "requested" feature in Windows 2009.

    13. Re:Why not just follow the formula in 1984? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      You just install two-way TVs in everyone's homes and offices.

      Luckly Apple just got a patent on such a device. Add in good access to a faster-than-a-modem net connection, automated NSA data mining for the "good stuff" and outsourcing the final analysis to someone that makes less than $.50 USD a hour on the other side of the earth.

      Could be a fun project if it was so fucking evil. Welcome to amerika.

  3. I don't know wheter to mod you insightful or funny by xmodem_and_rommon · · Score: 1

    I don't know wheter to mod you insightful or funny. So i'll reply instead and it won't be my problem.

  4. Do they realize the scope? by mentatultima · · Score: 5, Interesting
    Considering that more email is generated every year then snail mail; nevermind that just logs alone can overflow hard drives (happened to quite a few systems I encountered). Not even counting the privacy considerations this will create traffic jams and increased costs for internet usage (The extra hard drive space has to come from somewhere).

    Not to mention that all that extra has to be pored through. The FBI had gotten information on a case from homeland security, unfortunately they did not parse it down and the FBI agents lamented that they spent a majority of time chasing down pizza deliverys instead of spending more time on the actual case.

    Image the uproar when (not if) a cracker gets into the database and abuses all that information.

    The information gathered from users can also be used(abused) for blackmailing.

    You might be asked to testify against someone, if not then well your employer and spouse might accidently find out about your surfing habits.

    All in all, this sounds like a lose-lose situation for almost all involved.

    1. Re:Do they realize the scope? by Mostly+a+lurker · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I will just add that one of the most important uses of the information will be to go after those who "put national security at risk" by revealing illegal actions by the security services.

    2. Re:Do they realize the scope? by CastrTroy · · Score: 1

      Even if they implemented the system, and figured they did have enough space to store it all, couldn't everybody just start sending and receiving garbage 24 hours a day in order to clog the system. Some kind of P2P clog the log system?

      --

      Anthropic principle: We see the universe the way it is because if it were different we would not be here to see it.
    3. Re:Do they realize the scope? by mpe · · Score: 1

      Considering that more email is generated every year then snail mail;

      A lot of it "spam". But no doubt those people the US Government pays to think up daft conspiracy theories will claim that there are all these nasty people hiding secret messages in spam...

    4. Re:Do they realize the scope? by mpe · · Score: 1

      Even if they implemented the system, and figured they did have enough space to store it all, couldn't everybody just start sending and receiving garbage 24 hours a day in order to clog the system.

      This kind of technique would work best if the "garbage" isn't obviously junk. The point of this form of steganography is to make it difficult for third parties to work out what is "signal" and what is "noise". e.g. encrypt everything, using random keys for most of the messages, though you might still need some out of band signalling to identify which messages are "signal".

  5. Whos going to pay for this dumb idea? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    As long as the government is willing the pay to keep all this data then i don't see why not...

    Oh wait, no you want ISPs to pay? HAHAHAHA

    1. Re:Whos going to pay for this dumb idea? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative
      They're actually trying this in the EU, where it has already been agreed that data retention should be implemented for at least 6 months or so.

      Personally I don't see little that can be really achieved with this approach to actually prevent terrorist, since there are dozens of ways that can be used to circumvent this data mining approach.. and even a 12-year old can think of them.

      I think one might only be able to do something with when something has actually happened, parsing these amounts of data in real-time andextracting something you didn't know from it is extremly hard.

      Note number 1: The famous Dutch ISP xs4all has started a counter in the beginning of september 2005, giving an indication of how much cd's one would need to store only their traffic (~6% market share AFAIK). As I write this, the counter approaches 62 million cd's.

      Note number 2: I once saw someone make a small calculation on the back of an envelope about how much physical space would be needed to store all this information using hard disks.. and how many disks would fail every day given their MTBF of such a large 'warehouse filled with disks'. IIRC, one would need about 10 FTE only to replace the failing disks..

      Note number 3: It's obvious that these ideas are not made up by people with technical expertise

      Note number 4: perhaps it's not a bad idea to start buying shares of companies that provide storage solutions ;O

      Note number 5: I'm really wondering how this whole non-sense would hold up against the 'innocent until proven guilty' idea. If I'm innocent, why am I being tracked?!?

    2. Re:Whos going to pay for this dumb idea? by jdbartlett · · Score: 1

      "Note number 5: I'm really wondering how this whole non-sense would hold up against the 'innocent until proven guilty' idea. If I'm innocent, why am I being tracked?!?"

      In a court, you're innocent until proven guilty. That doesn't mean detectives can't dig up evidence to present in court.

      This only applies to the legal system. As is my understanding, American citizen or no, someone can be taken prisoner after having been declared an "enemy of state". Any takers?

    3. Re:Whos going to pay for this dumb idea? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Most ISPs will not pay, there will be a regulatory surcharge at the end of your bill charging you to help cover the cost of the law.

    4. Re:Whos going to pay for this dumb idea? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      I meant it more in the sense of 'how many (privacy) rights can be stripped away from you, if you're not really a potential threat/legal case/etc.?'

      Just like: without a valid reason, it is not legal to ask me for my (obligatory to carry) ID, unless law enforcement caught me driving to fast, doing sneaky things in a small dark street, etc.

    5. Re:Whos going to pay for this dumb idea? by TubeSteak · · Score: 2, Insightful
      Until Gonzales' speech, the Bush administration had generally opposed laws requiring data retention, saying it had "serious reservations" (click for PDF) about them. But after the European Parliament last December approved such a requirement for Internet, telephone and voice over Internet Protocol providers, top [American] administration officials began talking about the practice more favorably.
      I hate to say "I told you so," but this is just another example of legal harmonization.

      Push push push for laws in another country, then once it gets passed, you push to amend your laws.

      All in the name of international harmony.

      It's a complete short cut through the legislative process. It's the political equivalent of saying "well so and so did it too".

      Don't think the process doesn't works both ways. The Europeans are on the recieving end of American patent/copyright laws, amongst other things.
      --
      [Fuck Beta]
      o0t!
  6. conflicting goals by runlevel+5 · · Score: 5, Insightful
    FTA

    "I will reach out personally to the CEOs of the leading service providers and to other industry leaders," Gonzales said. "Record retention by Internet service providers consistent with the legitimate privacy rights of Americans is an issue that must be addressed."

    Privacy rights and citizen-snooping mix worse than water and oil.

    1. Re:conflicting goals by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You'll notice that this is Gonzales speaking. With him "Legitimate privacy rights" means, approximately, "We deign to allow you to keep your clothes on in public."

    2. Re:conflicting goals by Phroggy · · Score: 1

      Privacy rights and citizen-snooping mix worse than water and oil.

      True, but data retention isn't the same as snooping! Data retention without snooping doesn't necessarily infringe upon my rights. Snooping in order to collect data to retain, well, that's a problem. Sharing this data with anyone else, be they other companies or the NSA or my neighbor across the street, without express permission from me or a warrant from a judge, is completely unacceptable.

      --
      $x='S24;r)>63/* h@<5+oZ)32"5cz';$me='phroggy'x$];
      $x=~y+ -xz+\0-Tx+;print$_^chop$me for split'',$x;
    3. Re:conflicting goals by dodobh · · Score: 1

      Record retention by Internet service providers consistent with the legitimate privacy rights of Americans is an issue that must be addressed.

      We need to pass laws which remove all semblance of privacy.

      --
      I can throw myself at the ground, and miss.
  7. Simple Solution by massivefoot · · Score: 3, Informative

    Is this not exactly the sort of problem public key cryptography is well-suited to combatting?

    1. Re:Simple Solution by kalidasa · · Score: 1

      Do you want to explain to me exactly how you encrypt an http GET command? They're talking about tracking what sites you visit - just like China. At least we know they can count on Google for help.

    2. Re:Simple Solution by houghi · · Score: 3, Insightful

      No. They talk about the information. e.g. that I connected to http://politics.slashdot.org/ not the fact that I actually wrote this.

      Compare it to the fact that phone companies keep records of whom you called when. Not what you said on that phonecall.

      That is another department. Oh and no matter if it is the ISP or the governement who is paying, you are going to pay for it. Either by taxes or by price increase.

      --
      Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
    3. Re:Simple Solution by Cyclops · · Score: 1
      No. They talk about the information. e.g. that I connected to http://politics.slashdot.org/ not the fact that I actually wrote this.
      So you are a politically interested terrorist^Wcitizen, hmss? Slashdot... give us the user id corresponding to IP address w.x.y.z on 12:48 PM EST, CST or WST. Oh, here's the court order. How did we find the IP? Oh... we didn't need to tap anyone for that, ya... see... it's lawfull to snoop on all citizens, ya see?...
    4. Re:Simple Solution by CastrTroy · · Score: 1

      Maybe you could use a new technology called HTTPS to ecrypt your HTTP Get command. Sure they could track which server you connect to, but not which pages are requested, nor the data that is sent back. A proxy system that did the requests for you would hide who was getting which pages.

      --

      Anthropic principle: We see the universe the way it is because if it were different we would not be here to see it.
    5. Re:Simple Solution by packetmon · · Score: 1

      You're incorrect about what they actually want... The government hasn't made clear what information they want retained. They're not sure if they want entire sessions of just session information. I wonder if the government is going to subsidize monies for companies to build their infrastructures to accomodate the information the government is soliciting. If I were a small business and did not have the money in my budget to fill this task should I be fined?

    6. Re:Simple Solution by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, they will just make a law requiring you turn over your encryption keys like Europe does http://it.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=06/05/18/141 9202

    7. Re:Simple Solution by dgatwood · · Score: 1
      Better solution: Tor. They can't tell what web server you accessed.

      --

      Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

    8. Re:Simple Solution by statusbar · · Score: 1

      Even if the headers/ip addresses is all that they want, what is stopping some hacker from making a botnet/virus that makes your computers perform 'highly suspicious' tcp/ip traffic on hundreds of thousands of innocent people's computers?

      --jeffk++

      --
      ipv6 is my vpn
    9. Re:Simple Solution by djjoemex · · Score: 1

      What really concerns me is the fact that they could sneak your email attachments.

      I use email to store my work and send it so I can work in many computers (office, home, friend's house, etc) and many times this is confidential data I worked for months.

      Am I going to need to encrypt all my email attachments using GNU PG from now on. For me its no problem, but Is it legal to encrypt all your data using a 512 bit key?

    10. Re:Simple Solution by Andy+Somnifac · · Score: 1
      Governmental invasions into the privacy of its citizens should not be something that needs to be combatted.

      It just should not happen, end o' story.

    11. Re:Simple Solution by smchris · · Score: 1

      Compare it to the fact that phone companies keep records of whom you called when. Not what you said on that phonecall.

      That's the story this week. What was the story six months ago?

    12. Re:Simple Solution by Lockejaw · · Score: 1

      If I were a small business and did not have the money in my budget to fill this task should I be fined?
      With this adminstration, you probably would be. Remember, high barriers to entry limit competition.
      Neocon economics, ftw.

      --
      (IANAL)
  8. Restoring huge backed up log files by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    could take a really long time assuming the goverment could even find working tape drives for your backup media. And using striping only RAIT, because backing up that volume of data needs the speed, means you need lots of tape drives and all the tapes better be good. Message to goverment: Be careful what you ask for. You just may get it.

  9. Constitutional Amendments? by Threni · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Sadly I'm not American, but this seems like the sort of thing that would be pretty early on in the list of rights you guys have - freedom of speech, not incriminate yourselfs in court etc - so is there any possibility that you could have a new amendment - the right to have private communication with people without having to tell - or without the carrier having to tell - the government? It sounds a bit much to me.

    Also, from a technical point of view, why isn't Linux and other Open Source software using encryption by default? If emails are hard to encrypt as a matter of course, perhaps it's time for another system which handles messages strongly encrypted. I've heard about TOR from the EFF, and I remember the short-lived Triangle Boy system - it really sounds like this sort of thing needs to be made up and running sooner rather than later.

    1. Re:Constitutional Amendments? by Bobzibub · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Happily, I'm not American. = )

      But I do live in the US. From what I can gather, they want to create big nets or maps of people. Who contacts whom. They don't particularly care what people say initially. That comes later if something strikes their fancy. There was a story once where they ID'd some 911 people on a big chart using this info, but they did not keep the info; the military was not allowed. Now the legislation is catching up with the technology...Nevermind that the 911 person was only fingered along with a gazillion others....This story is the driving motivator, I'd bet.

      Encryption will not help you here because an encrypted email still fingers your pals as pals of you. Probably not triangle boy either because they will have info on both ends, as long as the communication is domestic to the US.

      You might be able to network directly with the peers on your subnet and "distribute" before your ISP gets the info? The ISP would have to sniff every subnet. Might as well make 'em work for their data eh!

      The ISPs they're talking to are major companies. And as we know, the lobbyist's lawyers write the legislation. So it will actually happen if the ISPs can get someone else to pay for it. Watch the money. Mean time, support your local yokel ISP, the ones who cannot possibly have the resources to do this. Or start your own.

      I agree on the "get a system up and running" part. 96 bits for two IPs and a date stamp? We can do better! Really, one needs to consider a distributed network where all the major protocols are mimicked. One "FTP" packet there. One "HTTP" packet there. One "telnet" packet there. Couple of fake "ssh" packets over there. This way we could make the amount of data to be retained extremely expensive, because you don't get a single couplet of points for a whole tcp stream. Also, with data jumbled, assembly will require actual CPU power, not just DMA transfers from NIC to hard drive. And if we could get that module into the kernel to do some opportunistic distributedness.. That would be ideal.

      I dunno. It is unfortunate to watch what can happen in five short years. You should start putting your foot down Yanks. Don't count on me: if the #@*($& hits the fan, I'm outa here.
      = )

      Cheers,
      -b

    2. Re:Constitutional Amendments? by Secrity · · Score: 1

      The US Government had earlier found that simply appealing to the populace to "think of the children" can get the populace to tolerate a great amount of unconstitutional intrusion. The real key to getting the population of the US to allow total government intrusion is simply the word "TERRORISM".

    3. Re:Constitutional Amendments? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      That would be the 4th.

      Given the time of writing, it seems fairly obvious (though apparently much debated) that it is intended to include all forms of communication (since it lists them, given the time period), rather than those explicitly outlined.

      An amendment adjusting the wording of the 4th to include "and all private communication" would certainly be benificial however, considering how often it's been argued that a new method of communicating should not be, or is not, covered under by the 4th amendment. (see the various arguments regarding, for instance, the telephone.)

      See also: UNITED STATES v. UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT, 407 U.S. 297 (1972) regarding the current debate about such things (and the other references for the other arguments about it).

      Encrypting all electronic communication is a rather complicated social/technical problem (all users need keys, all users need the means to retrieve the public key of any other party, etc). Given the failure of PGP to achieve this among the general public, it seems clear that it not only needs to be possible, but in fact easy to do this. Not least, there's a critical mass of non-technical people making extensive daily use of email and associated forms of communication, a method of encrypting same would require significant marketing and effort to give it any particular usefulness.

    4. Re:Constitutional Amendments? by thisissilly · · Score: 1
      Also, from a technical point of view, why isn't Linux and other Open Source software using encryption by default?

      The short answer? Interoperability. If only 1 in 10 of my friends and family can read email from me, do you think I'll bother to use Linux?

  10. instant-messaging correspondents? by jginspace · · Score: 1

    It's lifted from the TFA but I guess this is supposed to mean 'instant messaging correspondence' (...in addition to logging the correspondents)?

  11. log size by alzoron · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Based on logs i've seen of similar information 2 years of logs would easilly be 26 gbs for a single person. That's just a conservitive number for the types that check their email a few times a week and look at the Lost forums every now and then.

    Multiply that by 100s of thousands of users and you're looking at warehouses full of tapes and/or hard drives. That's if you're conservitive.

    1. Re:log size by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Multiply that by 100s of thousands of users and you're looking at warehouses full of tapes and/or hard drives. That's if you're conservitive."

      If thats how many hard drives you would need if you're conservative, just imagine how many would be required to log the liberals (or be logged by the liberals, your choice)!

    2. Re:log size by slashflood · · Score: 1

      Based on logs i've seen of similar information 2 years of logs would easilly be 26 gbs for a single person.

      26 GB is what I generate on one single evening surfing pr0n^H^H^H^Hwikipedia!

    3. Re:log size by jefu · · Score: 1
      Ah, but if you're conservative, you'll love it cuz its conserving all that nice juicy information.

      But if you're conservative, you're against "unfunded mandates", so you'll hate it.

      But if you're republican (which is not now (and rarely was) synonymous with conservatism), you'll love it because it will be a good way to keep your party in power and since you just invested in disk drive manufacturers, its a double win.

    4. Re:log size by advocate_one · · Score: 1

      well... if we want to flood them with data then just keep repeatedly downloading Debian DVDs over bittorrent and deleting them... My ubuntu dapper update downloads so far this past couple of months must be at least 26 Gigs alone... hmmm... I think it's time to rsynch my mirrors again...

      --
      Donald 'Duck' Dunn: We had a band powerful enough to turn goat piss into gasoline.
    5. Re:log size by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, but they have hundreds of billions of dollars (or more) with which to do it. Making quick calculator estimates, it would only cost between 3 and 30 billion dollars to store all of this information for every US citizen for one year. That's being very conservative, and allocating lots of extra money for overhead.

      Even so, that's pocket change -- especially considering that such a vast amount of personal information is worth trillions if exploited for marketing potential. I'm not even taking into account the value it has to more brazen thieves.

  12. Data Storage by LordLucless · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I'm sure the ISPs wouldn't mind - as long as the government provides the data storage center and pipe to the same. I just don't want to be the poor sucker that's expected to develop an algorithm to efficiently search the steaming pile of crap that results from that sort of requirement.

    --
    Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean there isn't an invisible demon about to eat your face
    1. Re:Data Storage by Cheeze · · Score: 1

      Enter google.gov

      i'm scared.

      --
      Why read the article when I can just make up a snap judgement?
    2. Re:Data Storage by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oh come now, we know they aren't going to come up with any interesting results with data-mining. They'll compile some useless statistics to look like work, and then use the information on a person-by-person basis for blackmail. This is all about the Republican apparatus obtaining the means to coerce political opposition.

  13. Private Meeting? by badlikeacobra · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I wonder if they have some privacy issues about the content of their private meetings showing up on the internet?

  14. Distraction? by m1ndrape · · Score: 4, Insightful

    are we sure this story isn't just to distract us from the AT&T + NSA snooping headlines? if they need to ask ISP's to retain all this data, then surely the NSA isn't doing what everything thinks they are doing.

    --
    Donald Ray Moore Jr. (mindrape)
    Suspected Terrorist
    1. Re:Distraction? by rbarreira · · Score: 2, Insightful

      if they need to ask ISP's to retain all this data, then surely the NSA isn't doing what everything thinks they are doing.

      From what I remember this isn't quite true... The NSA + AT&T case is about real time data mining, not blind storage of details of every connection made by an user. The case presented in this article enables investigators to get data about the past, even if nothing suspicious was detected at that time.

      --

      The AACS key is NOT 0xF606EEFD628B1CA427BEA93A9CA9773F
    2. Re:Distraction? by Decker-Mage · · Score: 1
      Actually no, this is not new. I've been tracking what Justice is up to for quite a while now. It goes further back than the Bush Administration, the Clinton Administration also wanted to do the same thing but the tech wasn't there yet. Heck, the tech really still isn't there yet beyond tracking connections. If you want the packet data, no ISP, not even AOL, can afford this requirement.

      On the other hand, most child pornographers seem to be tech stupid so I don't see much point beyond connection data. Now if I were to engage in such activity, all an ISP would have would be the fact that my computer was diving into an encrypted VPN and that's it. Once in there I'd be changing my efffective IP address at most once per second but they would have no idea I was doing that. And that doesn't count the fact that on the other end all you'd see in the weblog/ISP log would be an IP address, date, and time. All other data is not provided (it's null). That's if I go into full paranoia mode which I do when I cruise the cracking/"hacking" boards from time to time to see what the scene is up to around the world. [Security research :-). ]

      There are other mechanisms to work around this, many of which are available in various security toolkits, off of security oriented web sites, etc. ad nauseum. All that will happen will be a Darwinian process where the dumb/stupid ones are caught and the smart ones will not as they get into a tech war of escalation, just as has happened with the spammers. You can do this but their weapon(s) of choice are the wrong ones but they are tech illiterate in my not so humble opinion, so we have sound and fury signifying nothing.

      --
      "[I]t is a wise man who admits the limits of his knowledge or skill, and that pretending either causes harm." --Terry Go
  15. There's no difference. by twitter · · Score: 3, Insightful
    They are talking about taking Carnivore out of the secret room. The "records" of everything you do will be available without warrent already. New laws will do away those pesky constitutional concerns. Sooner or later the collection machinery will be specified and owned by the feds, though still payed for by the ISP. The "evidence" will stand up better in court when someone decides to dissapear you with kiddie porn or some other disgraceful crime. The currently proposed system will eliminate the "stove pipes" in the current corporate owned spy network. You private papers and personal effects are owned more effectively than Eric Blair imagined they would be.

    --

    Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.

    1. Re:There's no difference. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      hi willy, we were wondering if you were planning to address some of the replies to this. Thanks.

  16. Freedom and Cost by Sqreater · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The cost of freedom and rights is paid not just on the battlefields of the wars we fight, but in our everyday lives. When we become so weak that we cannot accept that cost, then we cannot have rights and freedoms.

    In Massachusetts, USA, we now have State Police on television, threatening the citizens of the State over seatbelt use. In the mad desire to save the last life, our government and police oppress and threaten not murderers or rapists, not armed robbers or burglars, but citizens commuting to work, mothers doing shopping, and old people on the way to bingo.

    You can be sure that the requirement to hold all ISP information on individuals will extend from 2 years to 5 to 10. Then there will be a lifetime requirement on all communication by an individual.

    They justify these incroachments on rights and freedoms by saying they are fighting crime and saving lives. We have to be strong enough to accept the consequences of our freedom to chose in our lives and tell them we are not mere cells in the body of society. We must tell them that we are not all "uncaught criminals" who must be monitored and spied upon by the government for our own good. We must tell them to go to hell.

    --
    E Proelio Veritas.
    1. Re:Freedom and Cost by Canth7 · · Score: 1

      While I agree in general with your sentiments that we steadily complain less about freedom encroaching laws and practices, I don't agree with your seatbelt analogy.

      1) Not wearing your seatbelt affects more than just you. If you have to swerve or brake suddenly or both while not wearing your seatbelt then it's possible that you could end up losing control over your vehicle causing you to crash into me. By wearing your seatbelt, you drive more safely and in control and you are performing a public good.

      2) If you really don't want to wear your seatbelt, don't. The cops can't stop you for not wearing your seatbelt - they can only fine you for not wearing it if they pull you over for another infraction and then catch you not wearing it. Your privacy in your vehicle is far more secure than your email or your browsing habits which you have little control over who sees, given the nature of the internet.

      Comparing seatbelt laws with say executive orders that allow a US citizen to be detained without right to concil, family, challenges to his detention, and without being charged with a crime is an entirely different ballgame. In latter case, we should not only tell them to go to hell, but throw the bums out.

    2. Re:Freedom and Cost by CastrTroy · · Score: 1

      By wearing your seatbelt, you drive more safely and in control and you are performing a public good

      How does this make any sense? I would think that someone who is more likely to be injured in a crash, to drive more safely. If there is a 100% chance that you will die in an accident, you had better make sure that you don't get in an accident. However, if there is a 100% chance that you won't get injured, then why would you even worry about whether or not you got in an accident.

      --

      Anthropic principle: We see the universe the way it is because if it were different we would not be here to see it.
    3. Re:Freedom and Cost by awing0 · · Score: 1

      It's not over saving lives at all. The seatbelt legislation is to save the insurance companies money. With mandatory insurance laws the insurance companies get to have their cake and eat it too. I have long argued the seatbelt issue as a freedom issue, yet noone cares except maybe a few here on slashdot.

      It's funny that the the commercial threatens you with a fine, not accident statistics proving you are more likely to survive. Maybe there aren't any statistics? Or maybe people think money is worth more than (actual) safety.

      Why don't school busses have seat belts? Protect the children?

      --
      Cthulhu Saves.
    4. Re:Freedom and Cost by Sqreater · · Score: 1
      "Not wearing your seatbelt affects more than just you."

      All rights cost others. It is for this reason that they are controversial. If rights and freedoms did not cost others, we would have rights and freedoms too many to count. Why not? They would be innocuous.

      "If you really don't want to wear your seatbelt, don't. The cops can't stop you for not wearing your seatbelt - they can only fine you for not wearing it if they pull you over for another infraction and then catch you not wearing it."

      In Massachusetts, USA, they passed a "bridge law" saying they would not pull over citizens for seatbelt infractions. They would only be cited for not wearing a seatbelt if pulled over for another reason. Then, a few years later, just recently, they passed a law saying they can pull a citizen over for not wearing a seatbelt. A bridge law is a law you pass on the way to the law you really want. If you don't have enough support for a law, get passed what you can get passed with the intent to modify it later when passions have subsided. It is a sneaky and cheap way to destroy rights and freedoms. Look out for it.

      "Comparing seatbelt laws with say executive orders that allow a US citizen to be detained without right to concil, family, challenges to his detention, and without being charged with a crime is an entirely different ballgame."

      There are no small infringements on rights. Avalanches start with small pebbles.

      --
      E Proelio Veritas.
    5. Re:Freedom and Cost by cliffski · · Score: 2, Insightful

      people *do* value money over their own safety, because 99.9% of people dont have a grip on probability. Thats why people play roulette and buy lottery tickets. People never think a car crash will happen to them.
      I wouldnt drem of driving a car without a seatbelt, I simply wouldn't feel safe doing that. For the same reason, I wouldnt ride a motorbike without a crash helmet. Is that a freedom issue too?
      I was part of a 4 car shunt once (i was stationary, some drunken loon went into the car behind me). Without a seatbelt, I'd have gone through the windscreen, might have even died. I guess I'd have died for freedom?

      --
      DRM-free indie games for the PC and Mac: Positech Games
    6. Re:Freedom and Cost by AnotherBlackHat · · Score: 1

      It's not over saving lives at all. The seatbelt legislation is to save the insurance companies money. With mandatory insurance laws the insurance companies get to have their cake and eat it too. I have long argued the seatbelt issue as a freedom issue, yet noone cares except maybe a few here on slashdot.



      That's only part of it.
      If insurance rates/costs was all there was to it, then the all we'd need is to remove liability for damage to people who don't wear seat belts.

      It's also about forcing people to be safe, and not allowing them to take risks.

      -- Should you believe authority without question?
    7. Re:Freedom and Cost by the+eric+conspiracy · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The seatbelt legislation is to save the insurance companies money.

      On what basis can you make such a statement? Surely the insurance companies just pass their costs on to the policy holders. The costs of not wearing seatbelts is much more widespread than just the insurance companies (which is unlikely anyway). It drives up everyone's insurance rates. For children it is surely a case of parental neglect to put them in a car unrestrained. There is also a societal cost associated with carnage on the highways. One of the best functions of the insurance industry is that they work to reduce their loss rates so that they can offer lower rates to their customers. Surely seatbelt legislation is a worthy expression of this.

      Mandatory seatbelts is a freedom issue, but what kind of freedom is it? It is a freedom to play Russian roulette with your and your children's lives, and make everyone else on the highway and for that matter in the rest of society pay for it. If it didn't affect anyone else nobody would care if you felt like competing for a Darwin Award whenever you got in a car. But life is more interrelated than all that.

    8. Re:Freedom and Cost by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They threaten you with a fine because people value their money more than a miniscule decrease in risk. Yes, seat belts do make you safer*, but the risk of an accident is too low for people to properly evaluate it. Quoting safety stats simply doesn't work when it comes to encouraging people to change their habits. I'm not defending these actions, but merely explaining where they come from.

      As far as school busses go, large vehicles are vastly safer than small vehicles in almost all kinds of crashes, so seat belts help much less. You will note that other busses, trains, etc. don't have seat belts either. Combine this fact with insecure teenagers using the conveniently placed metal objects to beat up on their enemies, and you quickly have a situation where having seat belts (not wearing them!) makes things less safe overall.

      * Disbelieving this moves you from "minor oddball" into "total kook"; thinking that you could somehow be less safe because you're restrained in the event of an accident is completely insane. Sure, your seatbelt could trap you while you get burned alive, but for every instance of that there are multiple instances of getting thrown through the windshield so you can die an equally painful lingering hospital-bound death due to other sorts of injuries.

    9. Re:Freedom and Cost by NichG · · Score: 1

      It's a freedom issue if you cannot legally choose to take that risk. That has nothing to do with whether or not the risk is large or small. It would be similar to a law which outlawed bungee jumping because of the risk of injury or death. Yes, not jumping is certainly a much lower risk endeavor than jumping, but its our right to choose to take those risks or not.

      There's a problem which if we increase public healthcare at any point is going to rear its ugly head. It's already started in the form of the seatbelt stuff. Namely, you can no longer say that because other people will have to pay for the risks you take. So that gives politicians a huge license to legislate safety regulations. A mix of public and private could avoid that - you could sign some waiver saying that when you participate in whatever the 'unnecessarily risky endeavor' is these days you forfeit your right to public care for any injuries sustained during that activity. Of course, there's problems with that idea too...

    10. Re:Freedom and Cost by Billnvd65 · · Score: 1

      "Then, a few years later, just recently, they passed a law saying they can pull a citizen over for not wearing a seatbelt."

      Actually, that law was voted down in the second round, 84 to 76 or something to the likes, so for the moment, you cannot be pulled over for the lack of wearing a seat belt. However, I totally agree with you on the thoughts behind your comments. The constant barrage of "I am State Trooper Smith, Click it or Ticket" is getting ridiculous.

      You can't get pulled over for eating a hamburger, having an arguement with your SO, doing any of 1000 things you should not do while driving, but god forbid you don't have your seatbelt on.

      Personally, I always wear mine and require all in my car to wear one. A couple of years of low end stock car racing makes you appreciate good seat belts and safe cars. I don't think law enforcement needs to be dealing with this. There are far more pressing issues that our tax money should be spent on then seat belt enforcement. I can only imagine what those god damned commercials cost to produce and air.

      Back to the main topic: Data retention to the degree mentioned in the proposed law far exceeds the governments authority. The bad part is that there are far too many people who just don't care or do not see what will come of all this as the years wind on. Eventually, we are going to be living in the types of society portrayed in movies like "The 5th Element", etc.

      While I cannot remember where I read some of the data, but laws designed on prevention have little effect on law breakers, but instead effect the general law abiding populace. Laws designed on punishment effect the law breakers and have little to no effect on the law abiding.

      Prevention laws sound wonderful in theory, but when the results don't match the theory, beleve the results and change the theory.

      I should not be punished because I might do something that may result in something illegal. I should not be monitored becuase I might do something illegal otherwise we are entering the era of thought crimes as in "The Minority Report" I am all for strict enforcement of laws and punishment that fits the crime when the laws are sound to begin with. I am totally against treating the general populace as a bunch of criminals just waiting for the chance to rape and pillage.

      In the end, we are all screwed because crime is not going away because the underlying reason for crime is not being addressed. As the rich get richer and poor get poorer, crime will continue to florish. What is the motivation to work hard and pay taxes to support the infastructure when the blatent abuses of social programs is rubbed in our faces every day. Familys on endless social programs being rewarded with low cost housing and state benefits. Have anohter kid, we will give you even more money, more health care.

      In a convience store once, I was behind a woman paying for her gas with a state EBT(welfare) card. She was driving a Ford Excursion. I can't afford a vehicle like that never mind the gas it sucks down.

      As long as federal, state and local governements make it profitable to be dishonest, crime is not going away. Our goverment officials however seem to be on the fast train to enacting laws that serve no purpose other than to remove freedoms from the law abiding citizens. Stop worring about me and go after the real criminals. Stop using emotional response propoganda to pass broad base laws.

      A perfect example is a standard search warrant. Say they believe you have committed a crime and stole a diamond ring. The police get a warrant to search your home for the stolen property. The warrant states what they can and cannot search for. Where they can search, etc. If they find a eveidence from another unrelated crime they cannot use that evidence against you. Very rarely are such broad based search warrants granted as they violate our protected rights against illegal search and seizure.

      Laws such as the data retenti

    11. Re:Freedom and Cost by Detritus · · Score: 1
      The warrant states what they can and cannot search for. Where they can search, etc. If they find a eveidence from another unrelated crime they cannot use that evidence against you.

      The Supreme Court disagrees with you.

      Harris v. United States, 390 U.S. 234 (1968)

      --
      Mea navis aericumbens anguillis abundat
    12. Re:Freedom and Cost by Sqreater · · Score: 1

      You speak sense. And I stand corrected about the vote. I haven't checked it yet, but I assume you would not state it if it were not the case. I share your growing anger.

      --
      E Proelio Veritas.
    13. Re:Freedom and Cost by WilliamSChips · · Score: 1

      Well, someone who is injured in a crash generally doesn't drive well right after the injury...

      --
      Please, for the good of Humanity, vote Obama.
    14. Re:Freedom and Cost by toddestan · · Score: 1

      One of the best functions of the insurance industry is that they work to reduce their loss rates so that they can offer lower rates to their customers.

      You misspelled "increase profit margins". Seriously, when was the last time an auto insurance company ever passed savings back to their policy holders?

    15. Re:Freedom and Cost by Billnvd65 · · Score: 1

      I believe the case you mention deals with evidence in plain view, additionally, it was involved in a related crime. Having pot plants on your table can get you busted as they are in plain view. A police officer does not have to search for them, but merely look and he can see them. Having a joint, in a box, in a drawer, in your home is a different case. Now, the police would most likely seize the joint, but it is not automatically useable as evidence as it was not discovered during a valid search for drugs. Then again there are about 22 thousand exceptions to the illegal search and seizure laws. Now, maybe I am wrong. It would not be the first time. However, I am basing my statements on close ties to local and state police from a couple different states, (it's a married thing).

    16. Re:Freedom and Cost by mpe · · Score: 1

      It's also about forcing people to be safe, and not allowing them to take risks.

      The problem is that this kind of approach doomed to failure. Everyone has an optimal level of percieved safety. Try to make cars feel "too safe" for their drivers and they will compensate by driving recklessly. If you want to make cars safer the best way is to make them feel less safe to drivers.

    17. Re:Freedom and Cost by mpe · · Score: 1

      As far as school busses go, large vehicles are vastly safer than small vehicles in almost all kinds of crashes, so seat belts help much less. You will note that other busses, trains, etc. don't have seat belts either.

      There are other effects at work here than just the utility of adding seat belts. Otherwise they wouldn't be fitted to airliners...

    18. Re:Freedom and Cost by GiMP · · Score: 1

      PA is a similar story. They can now pull you over for not wearing a seatbelt. No other infraction is necessary. The scary thing is that this pretty much gives them the ability to pull you over for anything, since you can't prove that you were wearing it, and a cop's word is golden in the eyes of a judge.

    19. Re:Freedom and Cost by Sqreater · · Score: 1

      And, besides the denial of freedom and respect for individuals, these laws actually threaten public safety and health. Pulling someone out of the stream of traffic and making him sit on the side of the road is one of the most dangerous things a police officer can do to someone. A state police officer almost got me killed that way once. Only luck and my common sense saved me.

      --
      E Proelio Veritas.
  17. And in a separate meeting... by Atario · · Score: 1

    ...between ISPs and their users, the users said they would jump ship the moment they thought their ISPs were helping to spy/keep tabs on them. The users also read a statement into the record proposing that the Justice Department, quote, "go fuck themselves", and, further, that the DOJ heads would, quote, "hit the bricks as soon as we have fired their elected masters".

    --
    "A great democracy must be progressive or it will soon cease to be a great democracy." --Theodore Roosevelt
    1. Re:And in a separate meeting... by proind · · Score: 1

      It will be really hard to jump ship if all the ISP's start retaning data. Unless ,of course, you can live without an internet connection(which I doubt).

      --
      When Geiger counters are outlawed, only mutants will have Geiger counters
    2. Re:And in a separate meeting... by tomjen · · Score: 1

      You do not have to live without an internet connection, just take advantage of friendly Joes public wireless internet.

      To prevent that the goverment would have to outlaw stupidity.

      --
      Freedom or George Bush
    3. Re:And in a separate meeting... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      To prevent that the goverment would have to outlaw stupidity.

      And then who would vote them into power?

  18. we analyzed your e-behavior... by SlashSquatch · · Score: 4, Funny

    ...and we found a probability of > .5 that you have engaged in illegal activity in the past two years.
    How do you plea?

    --
    Autonomous Retard -- Is your camp safe? UnsafeCamp.com
    1. Re:we analyzed your e-behavior... by Teun · · Score: 1
      How do you plea?

      >.4

      --
      "The likes of Facebook and WhatsApp are free to those whose privacy is of zero value."
  19. Time to buy shares in... by jamesh · · Score: 1

    ... harddisk and other mass storage companies.

    If nobody listens when we object on privacy grounds, at least object on environmental grounds... how many kw is it going to take to power the systems to record this data?

    Oh well... at least somebody is backing up my data, even if it's not me :)
    (Not that i'm in the US, but i'm sure my government can't be far behind)

  20. Do they realize the scope?-Random clogs. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "Even if they implemented the system, and figured they did have enough space to store it all, couldn't everybody just start sending and receiving garbage 24 hours a day in order to clog the system."

    We have that already. It's called spam.

  21. Which is more important to you? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    People can only have one of the following, not BOTH!

    FREEDOM

    or

    SECURITY

    Which of these do you choose? Which is more important to you and your life?
    If you choose the second, something is definitely wrong with you! Do you really want to become a slave?

    1. Re:Which is more important to you? by TheDugong · · Score: 1

      Where has someone NOT had freedom and had security?

    2. Re:Which is more important to you? by Mister+Transistor · · Score: 1

      Well, the first thing that comes to my mind is Russia before the Cold War.

      Back then they thought Communism was a good idea; the state would take care of all your needs. Plenty of security, but little to no personal freedom.

      --
      -- You are in a maze of little, twisty passages, all different... --
    3. Re:Which is more important to you? by Zontar+The+Mindless · · Score: 1

      You can't have one without the other.

      But you can have them only if you're willing take

      RESPONSIBILITY.

      The moment you allow someone else to be responsible for your freedom *or* your security, you start losing both of them.

      --
      Il n'y a pas de Planet B.
    4. Re:Which is more important to you? by MvD_Moscow · · Score: 1
      LOL!

      Russia before the Cold War

      Do you even know what you are talking about? What security? Feeling secure in your right to be sent to a slave labour camp where you would be able to help complete Stalin's industrialization plan (such as building a huge network of canals that were barely used).

    5. Re:Which is more important to you? by Greslin · · Score: 1
      Do you even know what you are talking about? What security? Feeling secure in your right to be sent to a slave labour camp where you would be able to help complete Stalin's industrialization plan (such as building a huge network of canals that were barely used).

      Oh, we're not talking about those people. Those were just troublemakers, rabblerousers, criminals and traitors like that Solzhenitsyn guy.

      Contrary to popular belief in America, Communism had a whole lot of fans in Russia (which is why the Communist Party is today the only significant opposition party to Putin's United Russia party), with plenty of people willing to sacrifice freedom for a sense of security under Communist rule. Historically, Russians do this all the time.

      Thing is, for a while Russians had it the other way: plenty of freedom (due to a completely collapsed government) and no security. The result? Organized crime by the bucketload and dead schoolkids in Chechnya. How many Russians are now screaming for more freedom? Not many.

      It's all perception. No authoritarian/totalitarian state can exist without collaborators who think they're more secure if someone else's freedom is taken away, but who never think that it could be them going to the gulag instead. The sad truth is that even under Stalin, millions of Russians still felt safe and secure, knowing that firestarters were going to the camps.

    6. Re:Which is more important to you? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The sad truth is that even under Stalin, millions of Russians still felt safe and secure, knowing that firestarters were going to the camps.

      The key word here is "felt". The security gained from sending millions of people to camps is an illusion. They felt secure, but they were not secure. It is impossible to put 10-20% of a country's population into slave labor with any sort of discrimination, therefore it follows that much of the USSR's prison population was there essentially at random.

      The question was not where have people felt secure without freedom, the question is where have people actually, been secure without freedom. And the simple question there is "nowhere", at least not that I can come up with.

  22. In Connecticut non-seat-belt-use is just cause. by FatSean · · Score: 1

    If you don't wear it, the cops have a legit reason to pull you over.

    Your argument that this law is just because I can negatively affect others through non-use of a seatbelt is a bit reaching, don't you think?

    --
    Blar.
    1. Re:In Connecticut non-seat-belt-use is just cause. by Ph33r+th3+g(O)at · · Score: 1

      At least he didn't trot out the "your injuries will raise my health insurance premiums and the government will have to care for you or your widow" argument. Seatbelt and helmet laws are just one symptom of the outrageous disregard for freedom that allows this once great country to stomach the passage of laws regulating conduct that affects only oneself.

      --
      I too have felt the cold finger of injustice.
    2. Re:In Connecticut non-seat-belt-use is just cause. by lagerbottom · · Score: 1

      At least he didn't trot out the "your injuries will raise my health insurance premiums and the government will have to care for you or your widow" argument.

      What about that though. I have always kind of considered it a legitimate gripe. I am not trolling I was looking for an honest opinion on the matter. Usually when I am trying to determine freedoms I use the litmus test: "You can do whatever you like, as long as it doesn't infringe on the rights of others". And rasing health care costs does kind of suck for other people.

      So if you have a good argument I'd like to hear it, because I really don't like the alternative. It always smells to me like laws that are protecting me from myself, which makes me a bit uncomfortable.

      --
      "He was a wise man who invented beer." - Plato
    3. Re:In Connecticut non-seat-belt-use is just cause. by dbIII · · Score: 1
      Seatbelt and helmet laws are just one symptom of the outrageous disregard for freedom that allows this once great country to stomach the passage of laws regulating conduct that affects only oneself.
      Natural selection of idiots who don't wear seatbelts should not be allowed to run it's course because it impact upon others - from the children in the care of idiots to other road users. When it gets down to it, laws are there for the good of the state and luckily the state is at least theoretically there in a democatic state to carry out the collective will of the citizens. Idiots becoming pavement pizza by ignoring common sense rules consume state resources and piss off the state which results in laws about things like seatbelts and suicide.
    4. Re:In Connecticut non-seat-belt-use is just cause. by Ph33r+th3+g(O)at · · Score: 1
      What about that though. I have always kind of considered it a legitimate gripe

      If the government has the right to keep us from doing anything that might cause ourselves harm or shorten our lives, then government has a right to tell us not to eat high cholesterol, drink wine, participate in sports, you name it. That argument gives the politically correct safety police unbridled power. I wouldn't be surprised if our citizenry is idiotic or apathetic enough to let it happen, either.

      --
      I too have felt the cold finger of injustice.
    5. Re:In Connecticut non-seat-belt-use is just cause. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      most people dont give a damn if some idiot flys through the windscreen and splatters himself because he was too 'freedom-loving' to wear a seatbelt. I consider this a beneficial thinning of the gene pool.
      however, it will likely cause a traffic jam when you die, and on that basis, I support those laws.

    6. Re:In Connecticut non-seat-belt-use is just cause. by Ph33r+th3+g(O)at · · Score: 1

      Your snarky use of the second person implies that you're saying I don't wear a seatbelt. While I give two shits what you think, I do wear a seatbelt, but for my benefit, not because the state has any moral right to force me to do so.

      --
      I too have felt the cold finger of injustice.
    7. Re:In Connecticut non-seat-belt-use is just cause. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You have no right to health insurance. While we're at it there's nothing to say the insurers can't require people to wear seatbelts if they want their insurance. No seatbelt? No payment. Women can work to support themselves, and if they cannot earn enough to do that then they obtain social services. That's only because they cannot obtain sufficient income themselves, not because they married someone that died in a car wreck. It's like "the poor women need a men" masquerading as a rationale for infringing on someone's personal body. If women can have abortions, why the fuck can't they choose to die horribly in a car accident?

      It's time for the government to regulate sexual intercourse. All of those disease-spreading people make insurance more expensive! They require the government to pay for widows when people die from AIDS! They create unwanted babies! Rawwr!

  23. Bring back the paper tape punch .... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ... and rrchive it all to paper tape and regularly dump it on NSA's doorstep.

  24. My Contribution by SQL+Error · · Score: 3, Funny

    I get 3 million trackback spams a month. They can have those if they want them.

    1. Re:My Contribution by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Dear Friend ; We know you are interested in receiving cutting-edge intelligence . If you no longer wish to receive our publications simply reply with a Subject: of "REMOVE" and you will immediately be removed from our club . This mail is being sent in compliance with Senate bill 2516 ; Title 2 , Section 301 ! This is not multi-level marketing . Why work for somebody else when you can become rich in 10 DAYS ! Have you ever noticed most everyone has a cellphone & how many people you know are on the Internet ! Well, now is your chance to capitalize on this . WE will help YOU increase customer response by 150% and sell more . You are guaranteed to succeed because we take all the risk ! But don't believe us . Ms Jones of Maine tried us and says "My only problem now is where to park all my cars" ! This offer is 100% legal ! We implore you - act now ! Sign up a friend and you'll get a discount of 40% . Cheers . Dear Friend ; Especially for you - this amazing information . If you no longer wish to receive our publications simply reply with a Subject: of "REMOVE" and you will immediately be removed from our club ! This mail is being sent in compliance with Senate bill 1626 ; Title 1 ; Section 304 . This is not a get rich scheme . Why work for somebody else when you can become rich within 48 days . Have you ever noticed nobody is getting any younger and how long the line-ups are at bank machines . Well, now is your chance to capitalize on this ! We will help you SELL MORE and increase customer response by 120% . The best thing about our system is that it is absolutely risk free for you ! But don't believe us . Mrs Simpson who resides in Washington tried us and says "I was skeptical but it worked for me" ! We are a BBB member in good standing ! If not for you then for your LOVED ONES - act now ! Sign up a friend and your friend will be rich too ! Thank-you for your serious consideration of our offer ! Dear Friend , This letter was specially selected to be sent to you . This is a one time mailing there is no need to request removal if you won't want any more . This mail is being sent in compliance with Senate bill 1621 ; Title 6 ; Section 305 ! THIS IS NOT A GET RICH SCHEME . Why work for somebody else when you can become rich within 37 DAYS . Have you ever noticed most everyone has a cellphone plus people love convenience ! Well, now is your chance to capitalize on this ! WE will help YOU process your orders within seconds and increase customer response by 190% ! You are guaranteed to succeed because we take all the risk . But don't believe us ! Mrs Anderson who resides in West Virginia tried us and says "Now I'm rich, Rich, RICH" ! This offer is 100% legal ! Do not delay - order today ! Sign up a friend and you'll get a discount of 20% ! Thanks . Dear Sir or Madam ; Thank-you for your interest in our publication . This is a one time mailing there is no need to request removal if you won't want any more ! This mail is being sent in compliance with Senate bill 2416 , Title 4 , Section 301 . Do NOT confuse us with Internet scam artists ! Why work for somebody else when you can become rich inside 61 months ! Have you ever noticed most everyone has a cellphone and nearly every commercial on television has a .com on in it . Well, now is your chance to capitalize on this ! WE will help YOU use credit cards on your website plus deliver goods right to the customer's doorstep . You are guaranteed to succeed because we take all the risk . But don't believe us ! Mrs Jones of Nebraska tried us and says "My only problem now is where to park all my cars" . We are a BBB member in good standing . If not for you then for your LOVED ONES - act now ! Sign up a friend and you'll get a discount of 50% . Thanks .

      Now copy and take the above message to http://www.spammimic.com/decode.shtml

    2. Re:My Contribution by Capt+James+McCarthy · · Score: 1

      This could lead to a justification for the internet tax.

      --
      There are no loopholes. It's either legal or it's not.
  25. The biggest issue by Skiron · · Score: 1

    What will happen here is once this starts to get a foothold, it will not stop advancing from the original 'reason'.

    i.e. data retention under the guise 'terrorists' will slowly degrade into a state 'eye' of everything you do, and even slight regressions against the law you will be pulled up. Remember speed cameras? Now they are used to monitor road users/collect revenue, nothing to do with overspeeding much anymore.

    The strange thing is, 'terrorists' would then move back to snail mail to correspond. Safe, unmonitored and secure (but a little slow).

    1. Re:The biggest issue by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      what terrorists actually use email?
      intelegence reports from before 9-11 show that bin laden was getting paranoid ov even phones.
      the terrorists are not middle class americans with two cars in the garage, a lap top, a cell phone, an ipod, a dsl and an isp. they only trust the religiously devout to personally deliver messages.
      these measures are all aimed at you and me

  26. Log size and a full time person to manage it by usurper_ii · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I work at a small WISP. Wireless Internet is secondary to our primary business, so anything to do with the Internet gets put on hold when a primary job comes up. The practical result of that is, we barely have a spare minute to work on the network side of the WISP (the result is also crappy customer service, but that is a different post).

    Should something like this actually happen, it would take not only a large amount of space, but for us, probably a full time person just to manage backing up the logs. For a large ISP it would take probably a couple of people or more. Not to mention the fact of the cost of the network monitoring software it would take to record all of this information.

    We are already on the edge, something like this would just do us in.

    But maybe that is an intended result, as having a few AT&T's that give you a straight pipe right onto their backbone, is a hell of a lot easier to monitor than a whole bunch of mom & pop ISPs who could not possibly to even begin to comply with these monitoring requirements.

    Let the cry be heard: V for Vendetta

    Usurper_ii

    1. Re:Log size and a full time person to manage it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      >Let the cry be heard: V for Vendetta

      Let the cry be heard: G for Get a life, it's f**king movie.

    2. Re:Log size and a full time person to manage it by joper90 · · Score: 1

      so is 1894 idiot...

  27. Not So Simple Solution by packetmon · · Score: 1
    While it may seem to be the solution, how long before companies are pressured to place something on the operating system level, say a keylogger? Wouldn't be the first time the government went this route (Google FBI +Magic Lantern). As a whole I would think too much crypto usage would create a boon in cybercriminals using crypto for malice thereby giving the government justification for passing laws to ban cryptos. Akin to gun laws... Guns don't kill people...
    This two-part article series looks at how cryptography is a double-edged sword: it is used to make us safer, but it is also being used for malicious purposes within sophisticated viruses. Part two continues the discussion of armored viruses and then looks at a Bradley worm - a worm that uses cryptography in such a way that it cannot be analyzed. Then it is shown how Skype can be used for malicious purposes, with a crypto-virus that is very difficult to detect.(SecurityFocus
  28. If they want this... by abigsmurf · · Score: 1

    The Government should foot the bill for all the additional storage needed. Afterall it serves little benefit for ISPs to do this. Wonder how quickly this idea would be shelved when they realise how much it would cost to store detailed info on browsing and digital comunication...

    1. Re:If they want this... by Jarnis · · Score: 1

      So you want to pay for it? Even if you dont use a spying ISP?

      Goverment rips all that money in the form of taxes... everyone pays.

      If ISPs paid for this themselves, then only the customers of those ISPs would pay.

    2. Re:If they want this... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      If they want this ... the Government should foot the bill for all the additional storage needed.

      Considering the US Govt will not even fully fund "No Child Left Behind", leaving local schools paying for another unfunded Federal mandate, I'd say the chances of getting refunded for this is quite good if you bribe the right Congresscritter. Otherwise they and everyone else in the US gets the same: nada. Welcome to amerika.

      /.: I'm posting as an AC so don't snitch on me.

    3. Re:If they want this... by TCM · · Score: 1

      What you are saying is essentially that you happily bend over as long as the other one pays for the lube?

      It amazes me that people first and foremost think about costs and how this thing could technically work/not work.

      Who cares about rights..

      --
      Of course it runs NetBSD. BTC: 1NT7QvbetmANwaMzhpVL6
  29. Just keep thinking that buddy... by Stoutlimb · · Score: 1

    "(I'm assuming this is an anti-terrorist thing - as most crazy freedom reducing laws these days are)"

    Honestly, how many terrorists are they going to catch? How many have they caught so far? How long do you think it will take them to find other uses for your information?

    If you think it's ok for them to do this to 300,000,000 + Americans just to catch 5 or 6 terrorists, you deserve everything you get.

    It's not an anti-terrorist thing. It's an anti-American thing.

    Never forget that.

    1. Re:Just keep thinking that buddy... by LoadWB · · Score: 1

      Well, the problem with numbers is that the Gubornment will continue to say things like "We have stopped $_x terrorist attacks since we began $_y survielance program. We cannot elaborate on the specific incidents, in the interest of national security. But trust us, it is true, and we are winning thanks to our citizense."

      My grandmother is a naturalized American citizen. I talked to her for several hours a few weeks ago. I was amazed to hear her say that she does not care if the Gooberment listens in on her conversations. I always saw her as someone very strict on what constitutes her business (privacy) and someone keeping their nose out of it.

      But at the same time, I see where the philosophy "the people should not be afraid of their government, the government should be afraid of its people" comes into play. Unfortunately, such a philosophy only rings true in a perfect world.

      Remember, if you vote against the New World Order, even though it is your right as a citizen to do so, you are a communist, a fag, a terrorist, a hippy, or whatever.

      Just keep in mind "what the queers are doing to the soil."

      But more on topic, the amount of data for even a small ISP would be immense. And thanks to companies like Western Digital introducing 500GB hard drives with 1.2M hours MTBF and 5-year warranties, it will not be as easy to say "oh, our hard drive(s) which hold those records failed. So sorry." Well, so long as they live up to the promise.

      Passing such a law would be unjust. And any unjust law should not be considered law at all. I only hope we will see things happen with these types of bills like what happened during the Terry Schiavo case. So long as Shrub quits stacking the judical deck, we might be able to hold out for another couple of years until the next vote.

    2. Re:Just keep thinking that buddy... by ZOP · · Score: 1

      Except that those HDDs are *NOT* rated for the 24x7 operation, they're *NOT* fast enough, and they're *NOT* seeing anything remotely approaching those 1.2M POH MTBF! NOT EVEN CLOSE. Further they take power, create heat, and take up space.

      If all you're doing is for little operations fine...but if you're someone the size of Earthlink, AOL, Qwest, Hotmail, Google, Yahoo, IE basically anyone with more than ohhhhh about 5-10k mailboxes, you're talking about a bare minimum of 5Gb/day. If you're just small mom and pop with less than 5k or so mailboxes hey, you might be alright with these big drives and having to retain your users data for a MINIMUM of two years. I'd have to run the specific figures, but I doubt that we (I work for/at a mid-sized web host) could afford to keep just our HTTP access logs for two years, much less SMTP, POP/IMAP, FTP, and Shell activity logs for that long.

    3. Re:Just keep thinking that buddy... by mpe · · Score: 1

      Well, the problem with numbers is that the Gubornment will continue to say things like "We have stopped $_x terrorist attacks since we began $_y survielance program. We cannot elaborate on the specific incidents, in the interest of national security. But trust us, it is true, and we are winning thanks to our citizense."

      As stated by people who wouldn't know truth if it walked up to them naked and punched them on the nose.

      My grandmother is a naturalized American citizen. I talked to her for several hours a few weeks ago. I was amazed to hear her say that she does not care if the Gooberment listens in on her conversations.

      In practice it won't be just "the Government" it will be a package deal including anyone they trust and who sucessfully spys on them. Whilst she might trust the US Government does she also trust every other government, corporation and "Mafia" on the planet?

    4. Re:Just keep thinking that buddy... by LoadWB · · Score: 1

      They're rated at 100% (24 hour) duty cycles, and WD assures me that means 24x7x365 reliance, what the industry considers enterprise-level reliability.

      In any case, RAID arrays address both of your concerns.

    5. Re:Just keep thinking that buddy... by LoadWB · · Score: 1

      That is a good point. In my experience, most people do not consider that information travels past the first point of interception. For instance, our finger prints on check that we cash at the local grovery store. Those finger prints pass through several hands with varying degrees of security.

      Even if surveiled information never leaves the country, goverment and leaders change political agendas regularly.

      Leaks are everywhere. Yeesh.

  30. The country I knew is dead by nethole · · Score: 0

    Now just wistful memories of freedoms we used to have.

  31. My 2 cents by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    from the article;

    "During Friday's meeting, Justice Department officials passed around pixellated (that is, slightly obscured) photographs of child pornography to emphasize the lurid nature of the crimes police are trying to prevent, according to one source."

    Doesn't that constitute child exploitation by passing around images of children to garner emotional responses?

  32. Who moderated the real American a troll? by frogstar_robot · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The parent poster is dead correct. Not being spied on and continually asked "Your papers comrade" was supposed to be one of the touchstones of American citizenship. When I was growing up, I was often told that not enduring such things and NOT TOLERATING them was one of the many things that made us better than the Russians. People used to care enough about that citizenship to even brook contemplating the traitorous ideas Gonzales and the rest of the Bush administration keep coming up with.

    The people in charge right now really suck. But the lack of spine being showed by the People means they suck worse. We should be howling for these clowns' heads on platters.

    1. Re:Who moderated the real American a troll? by LifeNLiberty · · Score: 0

      Excuse me if I'm wrong, and I don't mean offense because its a general comment and I'm guilty too, but I don't see you or me or anyone else who is complaining about it on slashdot doing anything about it that the government could see and care about. The US Government is only too happy to let its people complain in a private forum so long as it doesn't get any publicity and the only publicity rights violations get from the media is either neutral or positive. We need to get out there and start doing something, so who's gonna be the brave one to help start?

    2. Re:Who moderated the real American a troll? by frogstar_robot · · Score: 1

      We need to get out there and start doing something, so who's gonna be the brave one to help start?

      To start with, we can get out this November and vote. More people voted for the latest American Idol than in the last election. This apathy to who's in charge is what got us an oilman and his Halliburton buddies looting the treasury and using the Bill of Rights for toliet paper rather than anything even remotely resembling statesmanship.

      Conservatives who still care about what this country is supposed to stand for can let the Republicans know they are very displeased with them. Whatever else the Republicans are these days, they are not a party of true conservatives. They are a band of hacks who can reliably turn out a moderately sized swarm of hornets on election day by pushing buttons labeled "abortion", "darwinism", "gay marriage", and "heathen terrorists". Hell, their radio pundits even deride fiscal conservatism as a "liberal" value. Not that I like the Democrats much either. The Democrats mostly just piss me off, especially when the Hollywood contingent gets their asses licked for ever more DRM and IP expansions. The Republicans on the other hand both scare me and piss me off. They are in charge of all three branches of government and think they can get away with anything.

      Give me gridlock or give me death.

    3. Re:Who moderated the real American a troll? by Decker-Mage · · Score: 1
      Frankly both parties scare me and piss me off. Yes, I do vote, every primary and every election. I even write my Congresscritters and let them know what I think, often, and I don't use form letters so they have to read the durn things. That is if they don't just put them in the shitcan, err, trashcan. Still, I do try.

      This year, I'll probably vote Libertarian, just for the heck of it, although they aren't exactly rational on some things either. What I really want is a strict Constitutionalist party but that ain't gonna happen. Too many special interests with too much money, on both sides, and too many sheep out there that want mommy government to make everything better, again on both sides although they define better slightly, very slightly, differently.

      And to think I defended this country for much of my adult life. Sheesh.

      --
      "[I]t is a wise man who admits the limits of his knowledge or skill, and that pretending either causes harm." --Terry Go
  33. This has nothing to do with stopping child porn. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    If they are so interested in stopping child porn (the excuse they are using for data retention) then they should simply stop. The biggest importer of child porn in this country is the US government. Where do you think all those pixilated pictures that they keep waving in front of congress and the media comes from anyway. You always are reading about some big "police sting" operation netting some perverts, where do you think those pictures used in the sting come from. Now lately they have been supplying their pervert friends inside homeland security...

    This is nothing more than one more stepping stone in their quest for totalitarian rule in this country.

  34. More correctly, I'm sure AT&T wouldn't mind by usurper_ii · · Score: 2, Insightful

    They are already doing it, and they know how many small ISPs would have to shut down because of the cost and complexity of doing something on this scale, if it became law. Big monopolistic-type businesses loves big government, because it puts up a large barrier for entry into the market.

    Usurper_ii

    1. Re:More correctly, I'm sure AT&T wouldn't mind by mikelieman · · Score: 1

      BINGO.

      You've just put all the "Little Fish" out of business.

      --
      Technology -- No Place For Wimps! Grateful Dead and Jerry Garcia Chatroom -- http://www.wemissjerry.org
  35. In Connecticut we have a stupid state legislature by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "I have always kind of considered it a legitimate gripe...rasing health care costs does kind of suck for other people"

    Only thing I can think of is that as a society, we need to admit that life is potentially dangerous and that we shouldn't penalize individuals for actions that primarily affect themselves. You can make the same public cost argument against skydiving, bungee jumping, or just about anything other than sitting at home with the doors locked. One way to look at it may be to ask whether the person already has adequate incentives to act in a safe manner. The decision about whether to drive with a seatbelt should be left to a well-informed driver; the driver without a seatbelt is far more likely to suffer unpleasant consequences than anyone else involved. There's enough of a disincentive to leave the belt off that, should they choose to take that risk, they ought to have a good reason for doing so. (In essence, we should _educate_ people about the importance of seatbelt use, but not require it.)

    The opposite case may be comparing small cars to very large SUVs. Small cars fare alright in accidents involving other small cars, but in SUV-small car accidents, the small car gets creamed while the SUV suffers little damage. The person who decides to drive the SUV improves their safety, but at everyone else's expense. The SUV owner has no incentive to maximize everyone's safety, just their own. So we should be more concerned about limiting access to SUVs, not worrying about seatbelts.

  36. Perfect Security = Zero Privacy by rocker319 · · Score: 0, Troll

    George Bush is making all of us less secure. And we have to trust him to protect our privacy? Not. Try this: http://www.policyalternatives.ca/MonitorIssues/200 5/12/MonitorIssue1275/index.cfm?pa=DDC3F905 Richard

  37. Enough by blank_vlad · · Score: 2, Interesting
    Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin to slit throats. -- H.L. Mencken
    --
    Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin to slit throats.
  38. How you can you not think Bush is Evil? by marcybots · · Score: 2, Interesting

    This administration is doing everything it can to erode our privacy rights, take away due process and legal protections, increase governmental secrecy and decrease governmental accountability. All this ironically in the name of our saftey and freedom.
            The Bush administration is eroding our privacy rights through warantless wiretapping of American Citizens phone calls, and we dont know if its only international phone calls because there has been no investigation of this, we only have the people who are violating the FISA statue's word on this. FISA was set up for exactly this purpose. Not only that, they have a database of nearly every phonecall made in America, and they are using it to monitor phonecalls made by reporters to find leaks in their own administration without warrants.
    http://www.thenation.com/blogs/thebeat?pid=83880
          As for our legal protections, this administration wants to be able to detain indefinitely without trial anyone suspected of terrorism, Jose Paddilla is a American born citizen and though he will now be tried as a criminal due to the threat of his case going to the supreme court. This administration wished to detain him indefinitely without trial prior to that threat. That is scary and unprecedented. Were not talking about legal resident aliens, or people who illegal gained entry into the country, this guy was born here as a citizen and under the constitution he deserves a trial, every citizen deserves a trial, thats a fundamental right.
            As for increased government secrecy and decreased accountability we have documents being reclassified under the freedom of information act, and non-compliance for freedom of informaiton act requests. Its not just security related concerns, but corrupt things like whether a power plant is up to code and is likely to have an accident, hand outs to his industrialist buddies. Another nice tidbit hidden from the public for a long time by Bush's rewritting of the Freedom of Information act is a memo from Exxon mobil to the Bush white house demonstrating the influence of oil companies on this administration's global warming policy's. All of this having nothing to do with national security but being withheld from the public just because it protects monied interests or can embarrass elected officials.

    1. Re:How you can you not think Bush is Evil? by anagama · · Score: 1

      Troll? unfair mod for an opinion. You might be interested in this story from This American Life: Habeas Schmabeas. There is an intereseting segment (at about 32.5 minutes ) about Britain's foray into secret offshore prisons in the 1600s as a response to religiously motivated violent terrorism by fundementalists who believed that by destroying the government, Jesus would come back to earth (e.g., Puritans).

      --
      What changed under Obama? Nothing Good
    2. Re:How you can you not think Bush is Evil? by sauge · · Score: 1

      Your comment is only half complete. You forgot the part where democrats busy themselves screwing people too. We need a third party. Maybe even a fourth one too!

    3. Re:How you can you not think Bush is Evil? by Democritus+the+Minor · · Score: 1

      "These are people that got scooped up off a battlefield, attempting to kill U.S. troops, and I wanna make sure before they're released that they're not gonna kill again." -G.W.Bush

      "5% of prisoners were picked up by U.S. troops... on the battlefield, or anywhere else."
      "80% of the detainees were handed over by the Pakistanis or the Northern Alliance." -Seaton Hall Law researchers reviewing case files of detainees.

      thank you public radio for opening my eyes a bit more...

    4. Re:How you can you not think Bush is Evil? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Amen.

    5. Re:How you can you not think Bush is Evil? by marcybots · · Score: 1

      I never said the democrats are great, I cant stand the idea of Hilarly Clinton being president. Its the party of No ideas (the democrats) versus the party of bad ideas (the republicans). Its a sad sad state of affairs were in where both parties are trying to out do each other to make a mess of things.
            My point however was that how can anyone look at Bush and say this guy cares about anything else than the powers of his own office? He looks at the constitution the way a burglar looks at a security system. Every chance he gets he wants to increase the monitoring of Americans, whether it be to stop terrorism, or child pornography or whatever the excuse of the day is that if you disagree with it your an evil doer. Its just wrong and I had to say something, if saying something like this makes me a trolls than we should all be trolls!

    6. Re:How you can you not think Bush is Evil? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You forgot the part where democrats busy themselves screwing people too.

      Oh, but do try and have a sense or proportion. Bush, Cheney et all screw more people before they have their coffee in the morning than Lieberman or Pelosi screws in an entire year.

  39. Please! Let this happen! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    For not long after that we will have auto creation of botnets that send garbage back and forth to each other. The resulting disk space needed would bankrupt Microsoft if the botnet targets them.

    Not to mention - if the email requirement happens - the saving of SPAM will lead to a collapse of the Microsofts of the world.

    Or, more likely, the US of A will economically kill itself over the self imposed costs. A bankrupt US of A means even the politions won't have jobs - and the US of A will finally be rid of the plague of Congressmen and executive branch wankers!

  40. Laugh by Mark_MF-WN · · Score: 2, Insightful
    I swear, it's a laugh a day with the Americans. Never was there a people more accepting of their oppression. Even Iranians stage riots. What's America got? Disgruntled forum posts.

    Admittedly it would be a lot funnier if I didn't live a stone's throw from the US (I checked once, and the local transit system goes to within 300 metres of the US border... although there is no border crossing at that location). It would be funnier still if I wasn't aware that Canada's latest batch of census data is being processed by a US business, and is therefore considered property of the US government. Oh well, c'est la vie, long live rock, and all that.

  41. so welcome., my son... by Connie_Lingus · · Score: 2, Funny

    ...to Web 3.0, where your every click and view is tracked by Big Brother "for your own good".

    --
    never bring a twinkie to a food fight.
  42. I need an analogy referee please by way2trivial · · Score: 1

    More email than snail mail..

    what's the basis-- # of pieces of each or amount of data contained within or 3-d mass volume of actual mail?

    if you mean # of pieces.. if (fer analogious example) I had to store 1000 copies of of postal mail, or 100,000 pieces of email per person-- I know which would be simpler to arrange&store... the email.. I think the comparison to postal mail is useless..

    --
    every day http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Random
  43. We could scar the viewers as protesting by electrosoccertux · · Score: 1

    I don't think they'd be interested in checking my feed out further seeing as I would just beat off in front of it to piss them off. :)

    1. Re:We could scar the viewers as protesting by Mikkeles · · Score: 1

      Most of them would like to watch, as it would be the best sex they get!

      --
      Great minds think alike; fools seldom differ.
    2. Re:We could scar the viewers as protesting by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      lol true

  44. Hard Drives? Bah! by Greyfox · · Score: 3, Funny

    If they want that data, each packet should be printed out and mailed to them!

    --

    I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?

    1. Re:Hard Drives? Bah! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I was thinking a DRAM disk and shipping it to them via USPS. =)

    2. Re:Hard Drives? Bah! by Puppet+Master · · Score: 1
      Heh... The company I work for actually did this. I remember shortly after I started, the CTO was working for 48 hours straight printing out every line of log files for a law firm who subpeona'd the data from us. The order never said it had to be in digital format :) So after printing out every line of the log files pertaining to a particular spammer/user for the past 2 years, he boxed it up, and contacted a delivery service to pick up the 23 boxes of paper and deliver it to the law firm in question.

      I think they had to file for an extension if I remember correctly. :)

      --
      The day Microsoft creates a product that doesn't suck, it will be known as the Microsoft Vaccuum Cleaner!
  45. Check their own logs! by redelm · · Score: 1
    These dudes are looking at the wrong end: "wouldn't it be nice if ..." One thing Gonzales and Mueller ought to do is ask their own IT people what their own internal [proxy] logs [would] look like. And how much it costs to run. And how searchable it is.

    And whether they'd like theor own logs posted for all to see!

    1. Re:Check their own logs! by sasdrtx · · Score: 1

      Sorry, those are classified. You don't want the terrorists to know what we're doing to catch them, you know.

      --
      Most people don't even think inside the box.
  46. The easy way for ISPs to snitch: DNS by hotspotbloc · · Score: 1

    I'm surprised that the US Govt. hasn't already told ISPs to start keeping a record of DNS requests. While easily bypassed, the average Joe Five Pack user would have no idea it could even be happening. DNS records would really make the first pass of a data mining run a ton easier than starting with something like URL requests.

    --
    "I hate to advocate drugs, alcohol, violence or insanity but they've always worked for me" - HST
    1. Re:The easy way for ISPs to snitch: DNS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      .. Joe Five Pack ...

      Five pack? Got thirsty on the way over?

  47. And Europe too. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The USA/FBI has also got lawful access to the recently mandated call data retention in Europe.. So it seems USA+EURO is one big surveillance 'reich' now.. (I havent got a link but google for the newslink.)

  48. Preserving ALL of your data IS possible by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Informative
    I've worked at one startup which actually WILL preserve all of your data. You are misleading people by thinking that there's just too much data to capture. It just isn't so. Furthermore, the technology is here right now to report, in real time, what you are doing.

    If you don't believe me, just look at the technical specs of the device which AT&T is using for the NSA. Also look at packetmotion.com. And, from looking at the job openings at dice.com, there's at least another startup on it's way to do the same thing in this market.

    Right now, they can't keep all of your packet data for two years. But they CAN keep all of your connection data, and tell not only what sites you are connecting to, but also what type of connections you have. It's pretty useful for identifying Kazaa (et. al.) types of connections.

    If you don't believe me, just ask the IT staff at UC Berkeley. They actively pursue this type of snooping on both faculty and students. They, and other Universities, are a preferred testing ground, since they throw such a load at the devices.

    Now, why Universities encourage outside spying on the faculty and students is beyond me. But yes, this stuff is happening right now.

    The current goal for all of these companies is to preserve ALL data for at least two years. They aren't there yet, as the disk space required is extensive. But they CAN do it for shorter periods of time, if one spends the money on filers.

    What's more, it will only be a matter of time before they can preserve this data for at least two years, and longer. There are companies which make use of cheap fast SATA storage for about 1/5 the cost of a NetApp filer. 50 Terabytes is affordable; in 5 years, you're looking at affordable Petabyte storage.

    The point here is that the Government is ahead of the curve, as they know it's only a matter of time before the disk storage required to keep all data is afforable. So they want this snooping in there now, as it will be a lot easiler to mandate that ISP's keep ALL data once they have these hooks in place.

    So please quit misleading people into thinking that there's too much data. Snooping, reporting and storing this stuff is possible now, and is only going to get easier and cheaper in the near future.

  49. Storage Space by thunderpaws · · Score: 1

    The Justice Department must be running out of hard drive space, and want the ISP's to share the cost.

  50. Whats stopping them from forging this data? by cfriedel · · Score: 1

    Thinking about this, I have to wonder, what's stopping the feds from just fabricating the data they need to prosecute the so-called "terrorist". Most packet logging software I have seen uses text to display info or compressed packet info that makes graphs/reports. This would be very easy to manipulate to fit their needs. Combine this with judges that have no clue and you have the recipe for disaster.

    1. Re:Whats stopping them from forging this data? by Coleco · · Score: 1

      Absolutely nothing. What's stopping corrupt law enforcement from mining data to commit fraud? Absolutely nothing.

  51. Can you find your penis? by FatSean · · Score: 1

    I hope you aren't fat, out of shape, smoke, drink or are over-stressed. All these things cause your load on the medical system to rise.

    Same principle, don't you know?h

    --
    Blar.
  52. Voting This Year by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It will be easy at election time this year: Anyone but an incumbant!

    Now say it all togather, "Anyone but an incumbant!"

  53. 1) Cheney secret meeting. 2) Gas prices rose. by Futurepower(R) · · Score: 1, Troll

    MOD PARENT UP!!!

    The U.S. government is becoming involved in a culture of all war, all the time, and all surveillance, all the time.

    Most people don't realize that former presidents have access to CIA and NSA data. So, if voters in the U.S. elect a president who has family and friends and business associates heavily invested in oil and weapons companies, that president will be able to use the data to spy on competitors. It's not so crude as that, and a lot more sneaky, but that is the result.

    U.S. Vice-president Cheney had a secret meeting with oil executives. A few months later, the price of gas rose enormously. Coincidence?

    George W. Bush is the "worst president of our lifetime".

    --
    Taxpayer Karma: If you give money to kill people, expect your own quality of life to diminish.

    1. Re:1) Cheney secret meeting. 2) Gas prices rose. by TheGavster · · Score: 0, Redundant

      Why would an oil company need to meet with the Vice President in order to raise the price on a wildly popular good that some might consider necessary to their daily life?

      --
      "Because Science" is one step from "Because old book". Try "Because of my experiment testing my falsifiable assertion".
    2. Re:1) Cheney secret meeting. 2) Gas prices rose. by BalanceOfJudgement · · Score: 1

      If I wanted to stick it to the American people, I would certainly want my bases covered - a basic 'Go Ahead' from those in power that they would make sure the Justice Department would look the other direction.

      So, there you go. Not that I think such a meeting and the rise in prices is NECESSARILY linked, I'm just saying that your "Why" question isn't a good counterargument.

      --

      We are the fire that lights our world.. and we are the fire that consumes it.
  54. I won't do it by scronline · · Score: 1

    I don't care how much pressure the Government puts on me. It's not going to happen. I think what's going on with AT&T and the NSA it's obvious why the Bush regime wants ISPs to do this. I can give them who was on what IP for however long with a subpeona, but that's all they're going to get out of me.

    Not only is it a privacy violation, the amount of money that would be required to store that information for 2 years is staggering. I'm not spending hundreds of thousands of dollars or more and violating the trust of all of my customers just in the off chance that one of them might be doing something wrong that the government wants to get them for in 2 years.

    1. Re:I won't do it by /dev/trash · · Score: 1

      It's kinda hard to run an ISP in prison.

    2. Re:I won't do it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But... but... the children! Why do you hate the children?

      If someone looked at a naked picture of a child two years ago, it is obvious that we need the means to prosecute them. Therefore, all data must be retained, no matter what the cost.

      Makes perfect sense to me.

  55. Join the fight by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    Join the fight against an orwellian government. Encryption is still legal. Use it. Pay for email service in countries that remain neutral and free and support SSL encryption to/from their mail servers. Use desktop email encryption to protect the content of your messages and start requiring others to do so as well. Use anonymizing network tools and support their creators by donating money. Use encryption tools on your local system to encrypt entire filesystems such as TrueCrypt.

    The US government needs to understand that we won't tolerate this. They need to understand that terrorists aren't idiots, and that there are plenty of ways to bypass the ISP altogether, and they will use it.

    If we make their attempts to monitor the activities of the average citizen useless, they will realize that communication is a freedom that deserves the right to privacy. Our government has no business having access to our personal records and communications. This is a fight they won't win. Our government has been overrun by those who would throw out our constitution and remake it to their own liking. This being the case, we are in a civil war. You just don't realize it yet.

  56. Ludicrous. by panda · · Score: 1

    Just logging IP connections, i.e. a date stamp, the IP address on both ends, the port number, whether or not the packet was blocked, and the firewall rule that finally determined this, on the firewall on my little home LAN of 5 computers, 1 of which acts as a mail and web server, was cranking out roughly 1MB of log every hour at a slow time in the day, i.e. most of my LAN machines were not being used and the traffic was coming from outside.

    I wonder who's going to pay for all this data retention? Oh yeah, its digital data. That's free, right?

    --
    Just be sure to wear the gold uniform when you beam down -- you know what happens when you wear the red one.
  57. Yeah, but... by frank_adrian314159 · · Score: 1
    ... Clinton got a blow job.

    At this point, I was beginning to think that the R's went after him because they were jealous. Well, at least until I heard about the whole Dusty Foggo hookers, poker, and scotch thing. I guess the R's are just dicks.

    --
    That is all.
  58. MOD PARENT DOWN by TheFire8472 · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    Fucking uninformed. The reason you haven't heard of the IRA lately is because of a very long and very hard peace process.

  59. EU is already at it by Evil+Al · · Score: 1

    Its worth keeping in mind that the EU has recently passed a similar directive (covering "data retention") that obliges all EU countries to pass laws within 18 months (or 3 years, depending on the country) on data retention by ISPs.

    ISPs will have to keep data for 6 to 24 months. This will exclude URLs visited, but include the name, address, IP adress etc of every user, and also the addreses they send emails to or receive emials from.

    ISPs are currently negotiating with national governments on the exact wording of these laws.

    Ouch!

    Alex

    --
    Ah, computer dating -- it's like pimping, but you rarely have to use the phrase "upside your head" -- Bender
    1. Re:EU is already at it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And as i said in my own post; recently it was decided that the FBI would have full access to this data.. Behold the reich.. !

  60. JAP Project by cyberkid81 · · Score: 2, Informative

    While still in its early stages, wouldn't something like the JAP Anonymity project undermind the entire purpose and usability of data retention? http://anon.inf.tu-dresden.de/index_en.html

    1. Re:JAP Project by QCompson · · Score: 1

      While still in its early stages, wouldn't something like the JAP Anonymity project undermind the entire purpose and usability of data retention?

      Despite being in its "early stages", the JAP project already provided a backdoor to the German police.

      http://www.securityfocus.com/news/6779

      Tor is more trustworthy, but those of us who wear tin-foil attire may still wonder how many tor nodes are being run by 3-letter agencies.

  61. Watch For Follow-Up Laws To Ban Things Like... by BlueStrat · · Score: 3, Interesting

    ..Anonym.OS http://kaos.to/cms/content/view/14/32/

    Until then, consider contributing to these kinds of projects, as they soon may be the only things standing between you and governments being able to track and parse every communication you make.

    Does anyone else find it ironic that some of the most "free" countries are some of the former Soviet Unions' 'client' states?

    Cheers!

    Strat

    --
    Progressivism (aka US 'Liberalism'): Ideas so good they need a police/surveillance-state to enforce.
  62. A Rose a Ruse by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The gov't collects data all day long between the endpoints. It's a ruse the make us think they need data from isp's. Liars.

  63. TAX AND SPEND TAX AND SPEND!!! by takeya · · Score: 1

    The good ol democrat^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H republican^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H Government manifesto.

    If the ISPs can't afford the disc space, then we'll provide it for them for free!

    Then we can even spin it on them -

    "We'll give you FREE hard drives if you'll just do us ONE little favor and record the data of all your customers. Simple stuff, email, transfer data, what percent was encrypted, destination IPs, peak activity times... 2 years later: Also if you want to keep those hard drives coming, we want chat logs, email logs, and you need to start blocking encrypted traffic.

    1. Re:TAX AND SPEND TAX AND SPEND!!! by WilliamSChips · · Score: 2, Informative

      The Republicans aren't tax and spend. That would be far too nice of them. The Republicans are borrow and spend. At least with tax and spend it doesn't fuck up the children by putting the burden of the debt on them.

      --
      Please, for the good of Humanity, vote Obama.
    2. Re:TAX AND SPEND TAX AND SPEND!!! by takeya · · Score: 1

      I stand corrected.

      And when America is called on its debts, perhaps we will just have to declare those to whom we are debtors "not free enough" or "communist" ... or "terrorist" and introduce them to "democracy" (aka removing current government and putting in one whose first act is to relieve our debt).

  64. Why do they care more about the image than the act by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Many of the comments here seem to assume that the reason behind this is prevention of terrorism, but if you RTFA you will find that the stated concern is child pornography.

    Like many people, I was disgusted by the recent revelations of a "child-abuse-to-order" video pornography ring, and I was pleased to see that the perpetrators had been arrested. But I have news for Alberto Gonzales - that vast majority of instances of child abuse are not photographed. I am not an expert in this field but I suspect that for every case of a child being abused in a photograph or video there are thousands who suffer without a camera to record their abuse.

    I have seen statistics (admittedly controversial) that 10% of boys and 40% of girls are sexually abused in some way before the age of sixteen. The villain here is not the video pornographer with the camera and the subscriber list of eager viewers, but the stepfather or mother's boyfriend who tucks little Jenny into bed with that "special cuddle that we don't tell Mommy about". Until the Justice Department make a serious attempt to stamp out real child abuse how can we take them seriously when they go after the minority of cases which involve photography?

    We have to assume that they want the information for - well, just because they want it - and child pornography is just the pretext they are using to get it. Who's abusing the children now?

  65. Seagate? by mycall · · Score: 2, Funny

    I wonder if Seagate is really behind this one

    1. Re:Seagate? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      they'll never make the 2 years with seagate drives.

  66. # of ISPs might decline by failedlogic · · Score: 1

    I do not own an ISP company but I as I understand the profit margins can be quite low in the business once you pay your overhead (bandwidth) etc + the tech support costs.

    If they want data rentention for 2+ years, that means hiring extra staff to take care of it and buy the infrastructure to take care of it. These additional costs might cause some smaller ISPs to get out of the business. If there isn't enough money to be made, why not leave? If you charge more $$$ you're left to compete against larger companies who might not raise their fees.

    Will ISPs simply keep their offices outside of the US but provide services there? How is the information going to be passed to the authorities securely? More importantly, how does one know that the data being submitted is not altered? Suppose an ISP has a customer that they don't like. The authorities ask that information be submitted about him. How would they know wether the information on that customer's records are true or unaltered?

    Maybe its an attempt to further strenghten their ties with AT&T and the other backbone providers who signed onto the NSA wiretap agreements.

  67. when by PacketScan · · Score: 1

    did this become a police state..?

  68. Proxy by OgGreeb · · Score: 1

    Time to buy stock in foreign anonymous proxy server companies.

    --
    -- Gary Goldberg KA3ZYW 301/249-6501 AIM:OgGreeb Digital Marketing Inc., Bowie, MD //www.digimark.net/
  69. Houston Police Chief Harold Hurtt Wants That! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    two-way TVs in everyone's homes ...

    Houston Police Chief Harold Hurt suggested installation of TV cameras in homes so the police can determine who's at fault in domestic disputes.
  70. possession by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "During Friday's meeting, Justice Department officials passed around pixellated (that is, slightly obscured) photographs of child pornography to emphasize the lurid nature of the crimes police are trying to prevent, according to one source."
    If I am not mistaken, even pixellated photos of child pornography are still child pornography, so aren't the people in this meeting in possession of illigal material and should be arrested?

  71. In Other News, SAN Sales Soar by Cixel+Sid · · Score: 1

    Good luck storing that. I'll be sure to start a Government-level storage company if that gets signed in. Then I can live in a house made of money with platinum siding.

  72. What proof? Where are the numbers? by ZOP · · Score: 1

    So far there are a LOT of claims by the lobbyists, but where are the *NUMBERS* How many cases, of those how many had requests to ISPs? Of those how many went unfilfilled because data was not retained that long? In the cases that the data was there, how useful was it, really? How many times was the data wrong? Where did these numbers come from? So far I see none of this, so there is no case for, or really even against these laws on the position they, the lobbyists, are claiming!

    I think we, as americans, need to pass a law that requires some 'proof in advertising' before it can be passed. Especially in cases like this where there's all this shock and awe agains the media, and trying for sensationalism like protect the children, stop the terrorists, etc.

    Sad part is it won't happen. Since the majority of people just want to join in on the sensationalism and not find out the real truth behind it. Is it one case? Two? Two hundred cases that didn't get any data, that the data would've helped? Are there any law officers dealing on the boards here who can help fill any of us in on this?

    To me it all sounds like a lot of hot air.

  73. I saw the title of your post... by SonicSpike · · Score: 1

    ...and thought you were going to talk about Ron Jeremy.

    --
    Libertas in infinitum