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Refund of Long-Distance Telephone Taxes
pertelote writes "Over 108 years after financing the Spanish American War, the tax on long-distance phone calls is finally being repealed. The IRS is supposed to refund our last three years worth of taxes for both landlines and cell phones on our returns next year. The phone companies sued because they did not want the hassle of collecting the tax. The tax is no longer in effect on 31 July, 2006." Don't get too excited about a big windfall. From the article: "Consumers, who pay about 40 percent of the taxes collected, typically pay about $18 a year in excise taxes if they have a long-distance service and a cellphone. They will be able to file for a refund on their 2006 federal income tax returns."
Is the president going to play dress-up, get into an air force uniform, land on an air craft carrier near the Straight of Gibraltar and declare the Spanish American War finally over?
My work here is dung.
The Federal Excise Tax is typically the only tax that US-based VoIP carriers charge their subscribers (if they charge any). Having help start a VoIP company myself, I never understood why other providers charged this tax. We were advised by council that VoIP is not classfied as a "telecommunications service" but rather an "information service" by the FCC, hence was not subject to the tax. Therefore we've never collected a dime in taxes (other than sales tax on equipment sales, of course). I wouldn't expect Vonage to be pocketing that extra 3%, but I wouldn't put it past some of the other companies out there.
FYI: The "Regulatory Recovery Fee" isn't a tax, it's a surcharge that carriers levy to offset the cost of having to comply with federal regulations. However, IMHO, it's a bit disingenuous for VoIP companies to charge this fee since they aren't actually regulated.
Entrepreneur : (noun), French for "unemployed"
This would be a clear cut case of fraud. Since the tax was imposed for a specific reason and obviously has not been used for that in the last 100 years or so, someone should go after the Federal Govt for fraud. Now that would be interesting.
It isnt that far fetched either, say your local community imposed an extra $20 on property taxes to be used for technology in schools and in reality it was used to buy a new Benz as a "govt vehicle" for the mayor, there would be significant problems.
The phrase "more better" is acceptable English. suck it grammar Nazis
Bowing to changes in technology and pressure from taxpayers and phone companies
Hmm, interesting, I don't recall any taxpayers moaning about this particular tax.. I would say it's mainly phone companies..
Another indication VOIP is taking a toll on their business? Perhaps "pressuring" this move is good publicity?
I don't want a refund. I want my money to go toward funding the FBI teams that are going after Rep. Jefferson. I want them expanded by several hundred agents and to have what happened to Jefferson to happen to the entire Congress. You want to save money? Bush the sons of bitches who spend nearly $2B on bridges to nowhere, $1B on repairing and then moving a perfectly good railroad and all of that other pork barrel crap. Sorry, they can keep my $18/year in exchange for the FBI continuing to go after these scumbags. I'd consider that some of the best $18 I've ever spent.
What do you bet the tax stays on your phone bill anyway? It is a well-known fact that phone companies attach all sorts of fees disguised as taxes, some of which actually go into their own pockets. So their costs will be lowered, but for phone customers its just another day.
hmm, nope, well past April 1st...
Are they ever going to repeal income tax which was only supposed to be 2% max? Many of us pay over 50% in taxes if you include gas tax, sales tax, income tax, property tax, etc etc.
for those of here in California, you might remember the sales tax history. it was capped at 6% forever, then when the earthquake hit northern california in 1989, they allowed a "temporary" sales tax increase to help pay for it. Well, it's going on 17 years now and Los Angeles is 8.25% and isn't going down anytime soon. The same is true of spending. It only gets larger and grows, which is the source of our current economic problems and even longer term nightmare. I understand alot of the political sympathies around here, many at odds with mine (mostly foriegn policy related) but at least there'd be enough sentiment for small governemnt. big brother is big brother, whether he's listening to your phone calls OR taking half your paycheck.
My problem? I was perfectly gruntled, until some numbnuts came by and dissed me.
It's over? Does Bush know about this?
-- www.globaltics.net
Political discussion for a new world
This is all about VOIP. And how VOIP doesn't pay these taxes. Traditional services complete with VOIP.
With all that money, I can be me a sandwhich!
My sig can beat up your sig.
It does make you wonder when the feds are going to get around to taxing VoIP esepcially as it becomes more relevent. Meatspace long distance calls are the last great hold out in the analog to digital conversion. I haven't paid a Verizon bill in two years and LOVE it that way. Just seems like there should be a tax coming soon.
The only reason this is getting appealed is because it was originally for the Spanish American War (Remember the Maine!). It was a humourous enough example to get someone in Congress to actually repeal this tax.
Generally, taxes never die. So be very cautious about adding a new one.
Pennsylvania still has the "Jonestown Flood Tax". A 18% excise tax on alcohol meant to raise funds for the flood that occured in 1889 or something like that.
Except for ending slavery, the Nazis, communism, & securing American independence, war has never solved anything.
If they already have our phone records, couldn't they just analyze them to see who is elgible for the refund?
The man who trades freedom for security does not deserve nor will he ever receive either. - Benjamin Franklin
For the Iraq Reconstruction Tax. I'm looking forward to paying this one for the nex 100 years.
</masochist>
FLR
This is an example why special purpose taxes and government programs should be opposed because they never die even though the reason why they were created has long since passed. The FCC "Universal Service" tax is one that needs to go since 99+ percent of homes have access to a telephone. TVA rural electrification's original purpose has long since passed.
The myriad of taxes on airline tickets. Ever since 1980 the feds have put a 10% tax on all airline tickets and the fund is doing nothing except offsetting the deficit. If you think about it, that's a ton of money. Airports got fed up and start charging PFC (passenger facility charges) which you see on yout ticket ranging from 3.00 - 6.00.
Ever pay attention to the taxes on your tickets after you buy them? In some low cost fare markets it increases the cost by almost 100%.
Then there's the "fuel surcharges" that airlines charge that never get refunded or repealed.
At least regarding long distance I have a choice NOT to use a meatspace carrier like Verizon. Give me help with air travel! Yikes!
Interesting - I'm using Vonage, and I have the $15, 500 minutes/month plan.
Here's a look at the latest invoice:
I whipped out the calculator, and it seems that they are charging 3% Federal excise tax on the sum of all the figures above it. Is this correct? Are they supposed to charge excise tax on the 911 fee, and the regulatory recovery fee?
At long last, we shall live in a time of peace and prosperity, the costly war against the Spanish is now over!! Our children will grow up not fearing the consequences of War!
You Americans have it easy. We Brits are still paying income tax, which was originally raised to pay for the Napoleonnic wars !
No but, yeah but, no but...
as the bill per household is already at $510,678
Taxpayers owe more than a half-million dollars per household for financial promises made by government, mostly to cover the cost of retirement benefits for baby boomers
http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2006-05-2
enjoy the war
we'll be able to itemize every cell phone user in our household, right? and each seperate phone line? And for the 8 month contract I did where i rented a house I had phone service at two locations?
>Bowing to changes in technology and pressure from taxpayers and phone companies
The deeper significance here is that taxpayers don't mean squat but phone companies can get things done.
I'm not surprised, I always knew dollars were stronger than votes. I just hate having my nose rubbed in it.
Steve
A work that expires before its copyright never enters the public domain and thus enjoys eternal copyright protection.
Now that the US defense is no longer funded, the time for a new Spanish conquest has arrived.
As copyright owner of this comment, I authorize everyone to defeat any technological measure which limits access to it.
Funny how the tax is removed just as the telcos are about to have to face new competition from voip providers.
So when do they repeal the "temporary" income tax?
"Problem is, the system rewards those who bring home the pork. See, the pork spent in your district is an investment, the pork spent in the other guy's state is wasted. We can put the whole of Congress in FPYITA prison. The newly-elected replacements will preach financial responsibility and restraint for about two election cycles, then it will be right back where it was."
Of course it will. The people preaching fiscal responsability, mean they want it applied to someone elses "pork". Hands off their "investment".* And les you all forget the ones doing the preaching are you and I. So point all we want to the other guy, just don't forget yourselves.
*Oh you know. "save our [IT] jobs", "unemployment is bad in our state. Do something!", "that [insert your pet peeve here] is picking on me. Do something!", "gas prices are too high. do something!" With "doing something! usually requiring money.
The big crime, the excise tax on local phone service that applies to every land line, is still there. I haven't used a land line to make long distance calls in years. But I still have a land line. Wake me up when I can save money by not paying the tax on it.
Can I get that in writing?
The good news is you'll get your $18 back since we don't need to fund the Spanish-American War anymore.
The bad news is they're going to add a tax of $5000/year to your phone bill to fund the wars in Iraq, Afghanistan, and possibly Iran.
The libertarian solution to the failures of capitalism is to apply more capitalism til the failures are fixed.
So does this mean we won?
Napalm is nature's toothpaste
Hey, don't complain, it's one less tax.
:)
Now up here in Canada if we could get rid of this "temporary wartime tax" from WWII that we call "Income Tax"...
--- I used to moderate, then I read the -1 articles and decided having to filter through them was not worth it.
What's probably going to happen is that your phone bill will stay the same (or maybe be a buck or two cheaper) and your long distance phone company will make more profit. You see this all the time in Real Estate. When they cut a property tax, the houses for sale (as well as your rent) stays the same. "Inflation makes up the difference", they always seem to say, but the numbers don't quite add up...
Does this mean the Spanish-American war is finally over? Did we win?
We all acknowledge that there is some waste in government....until it comes to the programs you like! Taxes do good things--they generally build roads to somewhere...they pay for schools...they pay for police, fire, and other stuff. In business, you get what you pay for. In business, waste takes on forms like Ken Lay or Jeff Skilling....and other overpaid CEOs. (and, oh yes--it was GOVERNMENT, in the form of prosecutors, not stockholders, who held them accountable.!) Guess what--the principle works the same in government. You get what you pay for. You don't like it--then get involved in the process and change it. This phone tax is a red herring....a right-wing fakeout to avoid the fallout over huge tax cuts to the rich which vastly overshadow the cost of this little sop to the masses. I say keep my $18. Give me good roads, and good schools. Hunt down the criminals. Feed kids who go to bed hungry. And yes--make those who benefit the most in our society bear the burden for taking care of the least among us.
Because for years I had no long distance providers. I don't have any old phone bills to look at, because I have gone VoIP. I couldn't make long distance calls on my phone, when I had one. I set it up that way, so I'd have a predictable phone bill. I used calling cards. Are those taxed? I thought that I was taxed just for having phone service. Then again, they had so many fees and other taxes I could just be confused. Yet another reason to cut the cord to the baby bells.
I sure am glad these refunds always come out in years that end in 1 or 6 -- the same years Nintendo releases a new console. Maybe I will just start a conspiracy that Nintendo is behind this. ;)
Just in: Congress announced a new excise tax to fund the Iraq-American war. This duty will be levied on long distance phone service and collected by the phone companies on behalf of the IRS. The amount is tentatively set at $36 per year.
Oh well, what the hell...
Let me get this straight. 60% of the refund will go to non-comsumers (i.e. businesses with people whose job it is to file forms claiming the money). The other 40% of the refund might go to consumers if they have records and if they remember to file.
And this is being spun as 'the phone companies sticking up for the little guy'? That's some mighty fine spin, my friend!
"We reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals." --The American President (20.1.2009)
The company I work for admitted they don't like hiring young people because middle aged (50 year old grandmas) are better workers. No wonder any young people flee this state after school. Its impossible to get hired unless you're over 35.
Only the State obtains its revenue by coercion. - Murray Rothbard
The phone companies sued because they did not want the hassle of collecting the tax.
If it's such a hassle to collect extra charges why do they persist with the silly touch-tone fee? They already have to collect other taxes so it isn't simply because the money doesn't go directly into their pockets.
I am becoming gerund, destroyer of verbs.
Maybe we could start working on World War I now...
Chris Mattern
Great.
When the tax is instituted, you have to pay it or men with guns come to your home.
When the tax is repealed, you have to fill out a form to get your money back. That's fair.
Why not just repeal the whole damn thing and replace it with something that makes more sense?
Support the FairTax
Since I firmly believe that well north of 50% of everything government does is bad or turns out badly, I always approve of tax cuts and tax rebates, regardless of the circumstances. And on those rare times when I am able to vote on a proposed tax increase, again regardless of the "cause" (tobacco taxes for example) I always, always vote NO! My motto is "Don't feed the beast!"
The more you regulate a company, the worse its products become.
[a soft, scraping noise is heard as the soapbox is pushed closer to the keyboard]
Am I the only American who has noticed that our governments, the Federal one in particular, have spiraled way out of control (I doubt it)? The Fed has usurped so many powers originally intended for the States that it only vaguely resembles what was laid out by our founders. It was never intended for our Senators and Representives to be full-time, sometimes lifelong (albeit by election) positions. Nowhere is an exclusivley two-party system endorsed by our foundational documents (the Constitution, etcetera). State militias were devised in order to keep our Federal government in check, not as an auxillary force in time of need. And above all, our government was never supposed to be a for-profit concern.
We the American public need a revolution! No, I'm not talking an armed conflict. I'm talking about an educated public demanding that their government serve them, not vice versa. We need to demand term limits for Congresspersons and Federal Justices. We need to limit Federal speding via a reduction of cash flow. We can do this via a reduction in Federal taxes. Why does the government need so much money? They have fallen into the trap of thinking that the Government needs to be the baby-sitter of the American public. Providing for the common defense and general welfare of the public does not include paying farmers NOT to farm or subsidizing sheep/wool farmers. Specific cases such as these are best handled by those that are closest to the problems: the States.
The States need to take back their rightful powers. By severely reducing Federal income taxes and expenditures, States will have the ability to fairly tax their residents and handle their own internal problems and promote ideas and programs specifically tailored to their citizens' needs.
We need to mobilize and educate. We need to make demands of our government and not take "No" for an answer. They are supposed to be serving us. We need to make them honor that trust. And above all, we need to vote! Even if that means standing in the rain for hours in line. We need to write and phone our elected officials on a regular basis to let them know our concerns and find out how they are representing us. It is only through action that we will win back control of our government and set things on the right path again.
[pushes soapbox back under desk]
No one expects the Spanish Inquisition!
Our chief weapon is surprise! Surprise and fear! Fear and surprise! Among our weapons... Amongnst our weapontry are such elements as fear, suprise-
I'll come in again.
This rating is Unfair ( ) ( ) Fair (*) Funny
Sigh... If only. Modding would be so much more fun.
What about Rep. Kennedy, who was caught by the capitol police after he ran into a barricade, while under the influence. He is admittedly addicted to prescription drugs. That was quietly swept under the rug
In my state, driving under the influence of drugs (even including prescription medications which impair alertness such as sleep meds, tranquilizers, muscle relaxers, etc) is a worse criminal offense than regular drunk driving. There is a mandatory minimum sentence of three days in jail plus a $3000 fine with a max as high as three years in state prison and $30K in fines depending on the case. The wife of a friend of mine got convicted of DUID after she dozed off behind the wheel in broad daylight just after lunchtime leaving a restaurant, drove off the side of the road, hit a construction barricade and stuck the nose of her car into a pile of dirt where crews had excavated a hole in the roadside ditch to work on some water lines. There were no construction crews present that day, so she did not get the "double sentence when crews are present" but she did get arrested, spent three days in the county lockup after the sentencing phase of her hearing, was fined $4500 and lost her drivers license for a year. The cops found her prescription Xanax in the car's console, and she tested positive from having taken one pill the night before. She also has a very small amount of alcohol in her, she'd had one drink with her meal at the restaurant, and the combination of still being groggy from the last night's Xanax, plus one drink was enough to make her fall asleep at the wheel in broad daylight on a Saturday afternoon. She was not injured at all, and her car only suffered minor dings and scratches, but the cops arrived at the scene mere seconds after she wrecked. Her husband was also at the restaurant, in a different car, and and left maybe two minutes behind her and came upon the wreck to see the cops dragging his wife out of her car and she immediately pointed to him and yelled "He was driving". The cops made him leave and told him to go get his lawyer to come and bail her out after they finshed running her thru the arrest, blood test and arraignment procedures later that afternoon.
You don't need it in writing from us, you need to put it in writing yourself. Simply leave the country, never return, and swear a statement at any US embassy or consulate that you are giving up your citizenship.
If you don't do these things, you will be making use of what us real Americans are paying for.
yeah.. this is left's version of compassion: forcibly takeing money out of the 'haves' pocket, to give to the 'have nots'... we've been doing this for a long time too, and had no affect on the poor. it doesn't work.
you fools! if the feds had simply said "you don't have to pay any more," people would have been happy enough. giving back the $18 was a huge mistake on their part, however. it's a small enough amount that nobody really cares, yet had they kept it, they could have done something useful with it. like not raise another tax. or buy a few new toilet seats. or take the illuminati jews from the center of the earth out for a steak dinner.
- atm
Oh, yeah, right, Napoleon.... So, how is that war going?
Does anyone else share my belief that this "refund" is a cleverly veiled conspiracy to have the masses of sheep-like Americans have a warm and fuzzy feeling about their phone company as the whole NSA / Tiered Internet thing goes down? Or is it just my twisted view?
USS Maine: Blam! Glug, glug, glug.
America: WTF? Spain, can't you control your own damn harbor?!
Spain: STFU
Tomas Estrada Palma (head of Cuban Revolutionary Junta): Spain, I've got $150 million for you if you'll let us have independence.
Spain: STFU
American Democrats and Big Media: Free Cuba! Woohoo! Spain sux0rz!
Prez. McKinley and Republicans: WTF, we don't need dat shit.
Americans: Remember the Maine? Let's go kick some ass!
(April 11, 1898)
McKinley: Fine. Spain, GTFO of Cuba.
Spain: STFU
(April 25, 1898)
McKinley: No, YOU STFU! We declare war! As of... uh... 5 days ago!
Congress: Let's tax... inheritance! That oughta make us some bling-bling. Oh, and let's add one penny to the telephone bill. Only rich people have telephones, they can afford it.
(June 10, 1898)
US Marines: Ha ha, we ownz0r Guantanamo Bay! Freedom from torture for all!
(August 12, 1898)
Spain: Dios Mio! All our fleet are belong to you!
America: Yay, we win! Give us all your wine. And tapas.
Time Machine: Wowowowowow
(1982)
Congress: Let's set that war tax to 3% of the phone bill, that oughta keeps us in da bling-bling. But only until 1985.
(1984)
Congress: F Dat, we want to keep our bling-bling. At least until 1987.
(1987)
Congress: Mane, what were we thinking? Keep da bling-bling until... 1990?
(1990)
Congress: Too fun! Let's make it... permanent! Par-tee! Par-tee! Par-tee!
(2000)
Congress: That was stupid. Let's repeal the war tax.
Clinton: Ah agree. But there's nothing in this big ol' Bill (heh heh) about that edumication spendin' ah wanted. Y'see, it all depends on what the meaning o' the word "Spanish-American War Tax" is. Ah veto this Bill (heh heh, I cain't never get enough o' that joke, now come set on daddy's lap).
(2005)
Internet: Congress, you are too stupid!
Congress: Well, I guess we can try again.
Towards the Singularity.
Can I get that in writing?
Sure, but it won't do you any good when you don't have access to the courts to enforce it.
Recursive: Adj. See Recursive.
... in the form of legalization of all illegal immigrants.
if only there were more people like you. Agreed 100% but right out of mod points.
DRM-free indie games for the PC and Mac: Positech Games
Leave the country? So the existance of the land is one of the services the government is providing now?
Let's see: Enron collapse vs. $8 trillion national debt and an endless stream of wars. Tough call.
Actually, the stockholders did hold them accountable--by selling the stock and dropping its price to nothing--long before the government did anything. And what did the criminal prosecution of Lay accomplish anyway? The employees who lost out won't get a dime back, and now they have to pay taxes to keep him in prison! Whatever fraud took place in Enron should have been handled in civil court, but then Congress doesn't get to pat itself on the back.
Good for you! In fact, get out your checkbook and donate as much as you want to the US Treasury if you really believe it does any good. Just don't try to take my $18, please.
That's not a bad idea either. Since politicians are the primary beneficiaries of government programs--to the point of even manufacturing crises just so they can "do something" about them--let them pay for it all out of their own pockets.
Enforcing things in a court of law is probably a sin anyhow. I'd be contented with a signed document and a public statement.
I just want to know, if I and a bunch of other people go buy up a bunch of land in the middle of nowhere, don't use any government services, and basically just keep to ourselves, the state will leave us alone in matters of taxation, conscription, et al.
In other words, are they really only interested in charging services provided or are they treating us as possessions to be used for their own benefit?
No, I did not state that. But by being in the land of the US, you are receiving the services of the police, fire department, military defense, etc. And all this without you even setting foot on a public sidewalk, street, etc.
Does anyone remember the Interstate Access Charge. My memory may not pe right on this, but i thought I read somewhere that, though not precisely a tax, this was initally set out try to subsidize telco's building out service to more remote/rural areas. Supposedly, it had the effect of being an incentive for telcos building switches in bumblef**k USA, and raking in millions in a form of corporate welfare. Can anyone elaborate? do any of you recall it like this?
d f
Just checking my memory.
A Quick Google yeilds this PDF. looks like it may be relevent...
http://www.teletruth.org/docs/unauthbiocomplete.p
--- WE ARE POPEYE OF BORG, YOU WILL BE ASKIMILGATED, ACK, ACK, ACK
considering this administration, inquiring minds want to know ;)
if this is supposed to be a new economy, how come they still want my old fashioned money?
Why praytell are police, schools, firefighters and roads (all fo which are the domains of the state) being paid for with federal money?
T Money
World Domination with a plastic spoon since 1984
They're being paid for by taxes, regardless of whether you're paying the tax to the federal, state, county, or city government.
mod parent up
It's not the only tax ... my Vonage bill just went up again with state sales tax:
14.99 (500 minute plan)
0.99 (Regulatory Recovery Fee)
0.99 (Emergency 911 Cost Recovery)
1.19 (State Telecommunications Sales Tax)
0.51 (Federal Excise Tax)
-----
18.67
So, even with Vonage, we're getting taxed & fee'd, to the tune of 25% of the base cost.
I'm not sure what the secret to success is, but the secret to failure lies in trying to please everyone -Bill Cosby
Nonsense... I'm neither requesting nor receiving any such services. They can't charge you for theoretical availability any more than the McDonald's down the road can charge you for theoretically being able to buy a hamburger there.
If this 'temporary' tax ever gets repealed I would hope our esteemed elected officials would also look into repealing the permanent Pittsburgh and Philadelphia taxes. I realize that with our current governor being from Philly and a competitor being from Pittsburgh the likelihood of a repeal of this tax is highly unlikely but then again, who would have thought that the top two members of the Republican-controlled state senate would be voted out of office?
We will bankrupt ourselves in the vain search for absolute security. -- Dwight D. Eisenhower
I admit to not remembering the exact percentages, but as I recall something like 90% of federal tax dollars are collected from the top 5% of the country.
Personally, I would love to be in that group of taxpayers supporting the rest of you (as long as it means that I have that level of income to go with it).
McFly777
- - -
"What do people mean when they say the computer went down on them?" -Marilyn Pittman
If your "land in the middle of nowhere" is in fact in the United States, you'll still be protected by the US Military, economic management, etc.
If you revoke your citizenship and buy a random piece of land 8,000 miles away from the United States, I'm sure they'll happily forget you ever existed. But of course, that's rarely what poeople are really asking for -- usually they want their cake and to eat it.
Recursive: Adj. See Recursive.
Yes, you and all other leechers like you avail yourselves to countless government services on a daily basis, all the time decrying whatever taxes you do or don't pay.
You do receive fire, police, military protection. Your McDonald's analogy sucks--you can't compare services to real goods. A better analogy would be insurance. But then you probably only think you should pay premiums once you have a claim, and then probably only what you feel like paying, if anything at all.
If you want us to believe that you don't have to pay your fair share to society, then stop taking what society pays for. I'll even grant you those services you can't avoid receiving. But otherwise, for a year, stay off our streets and sidewalks, stay out of our schools and government-funded universities and hospitals (i.e. all of them), stay off our internet, phone network, don't watch public television, or any television, or use electricity for that matter, don't receive or send mail, don't purchase goods or services from those who've availed themselves of such, don't use US currency. If you can refrain from using these and all other avoidable services and goods the government pays/enables/provides for, for one year, then I will support your having your taxes repaid with interest, for that year.
We'll throw in a year's worth of fire, police and defense services as an apology.
Maybe the tax will just migrate into one of those unavoidable company fees that they don't quote in the rates. I just got this from AT&T today:
That's OK AT&T as I will be dumping your service shortly....
I'm still wondering just how much money has been paid in Bridge tolls here in Northern California beyond what they were originally intended to cover -- at inception it was purely to pay the city back for the bridge and ferry service. With more cars going over the bridges than ever, and rising prices ($5/car!), I would love to see some hard and fast numbers as to how much bridge upkeep costs vurses how much the city earns per year by taxing commuters.
mod parent down
When a politician talks about a tax being "temporary", DON'T YOU EFFIN' BELIEVE IT.
Quiet! Don't give them any ideas!
This sig no verb.
If you want us to believe that you don't have to pay your fair share to society, then stop taking what society pays for.
Sounds like we're close to a deal.
Here's my offer. I and some other people buy some land somewhere a fair ways away from cities... we stay there and you guys agree to leave us the fuck alone. Think of it like an Indian reservation, only instead of Indians its just general people who are sick of all the state's bullshit.
You can keep your police and military... its not just that I'm annoyed at paying for them because I didn't ask for them, I don't want them. We can handle our own fire prevention (as, I might add, do many rural communities) through a volunteer fire department. But we'll handle that ourselves, don't even worry about it.
Oh, and you need to acknowledge our right to generate our own electricity and to buy goods and services from private companies. I don't know if you really meant to claim that government provides those things or not, but saying you can't use electricity is just as silly as saying you can't eat potatoes.
Oh... and one more thing, though this is unrelated. Do you really have state subsidized sidewalks? Because I gotta tell you, I have to pave my own.
I don't want any of the US military's alleged protection, nor any of the federal government's glorious five year plans. I want them to leave us alone. That seems like a reasonable offer... but of course it's one they never seem willing to listen to.
You do realize the tax being discussed is highly regressive in nature?
More government subsidy for the established telecoms and ISPs who are threatened by the success of services like Vonage.
The government itself is not stealing your liberties. Their new programs are enabling criminals who will.
I don't want any of the US military's alleged protection, nor any of the federal government's glorious five year plans. I want them to leave us alone. That seems like a reasonable offer... but of course it's one they never seem willing to listen to.
You know exactly how to have the offer accepted -- move away from the US military and US economy and you won't have to deal with the US Military or the US Economy (well, unless you move to somewhere with oil). Nobody in the US government really cares whether you stay or leave, they won't stop you from leaving, but if you stay, then you are a part of the US.
It's not that complicated, you just want all the good parts with none of the bad. There's no way to magically insulate you from all the taxpayer-funded benefits of living here unless you leave.
Recursive: Adj. See Recursive.
Well in the first place "bunch of guys with guns that steal your money every year and throw you in prison if you refuse" is a dubious benefit... but whatever...
I tell you what then... I'll sell all my possessions, and I'll leave.
IF... you can guarentee me that the united states military isn't going to ever invade whatever land I buy in the future.
Can you promise that? Can I get that in writing?
It wasn't when implemented; I agree it is now. Hence the red herring--the anti-government crowd can say they are against 'bad' taxes...and then argue at the same time that we should eliminate taxes on dead rich guys. (estate taxes, which are HIGHLY progressive but are being substantially eliminated.)
Nope--this is a red herring....to hide the true nature of the anti-government/anti-tax crowd agenda.
Well in the first place "bunch of guys with guns that steal your money every year and throw you in prison if you refuse" is a dubious benefit... but whatever...
I was thinking more along the lines of "you weren't crippled by polio or shit yourself to death from tainted water", but if you see guys with guns as a benefit, more power to you.
I tell you what then... I'll sell all my possessions, and I'll leave.
IF... you can guarentee me that the united states military isn't going to ever invade whatever land I buy in the future.
Can you promise that? Can I get that in writing?
Sure, happy to.
Recursive: Adj. See Recursive.
Well, I need to get it in writing from the US government, of course. Might want to call your Congressman or something.
Hmmmm...interesting. The point is larger, however. We expect government to provide services....national defense to schools and roads. You don't like the programs--ask your congressman to cut PROGRAMS not taxes.
If you don't need schools, then get out a lawnsign and demand change. If you don't need national defense, then advocate for peace. But, don't pull the answer of the current administration--buy now, pay later. Cut the programs first, not the taxes. We need the tax revenue NOW because I DON'T want to pass burdens onto my kids.
yeah because we all know mexicans=spaniards amirite?
> It isnt that far fetched either, say your local community imposed an extra $20 on property taxes to be used for technology in schools and in reality it was used to buy a new Benz as a "govt vehicle" for the mayor, there would be significant problems.
Anyone that's spent more than a few seconds thinking about potential loopholes in government budgets has realized that creating a tax that's ostensibly for "project X" will eventually become the basis of funding for some other "project Y".
It works like this: Let's suppose you've got a budget of $1,000. You spend $400 on rent, $200 on utilities (electric, gas, water/sewer, phone, cable, internet), $150 on food, $200 on a car payment, $100 on gas, $100 on insurance, and you spend the remaining $50 on clothes, household supplies, etc. Then someone (perhaps a parent) comes along and offers to help you out buy paying for your food. You carefully separate the money so you can PROVE that you're spending that $150 on food, and you even keep detailed receipts in case someone asks. However, you mysteriously now have a monthy budget of $150 that goes exclusively for pr0n, beer and cigarrettes.
It works the exact same way with government budgets. I'm sure you've noticed that any time they add a new tax "for the schools", the school budget doesn't actually go up. Instead, it shuffles around funds so that they can afford some OTHER project. It's just a fact of life.
Um, you do realize that our taxes go to pay for the intrest on the national debt. Nothing else. (which btw is paid to one of those evil private companies ;-) )
Have you ever tried to actually do that? The State Department generally does not allow average citizens to renounce their citizenship.
You are obviously a socialist.
Government is the least efficient at doing anything and thus the WORST choice for providing ANY sort of product or service. Expanding the government's role should never be considered as it usually trashes the economy and productivity of a society.
Helping the poor should be the job of private citizens and charities, NOT the government! Private charities don't tend to sustain poverty like welfare does since there are finite resources. Also, why should I be forced to help my fellow man if I should not choose to? No one should be forced to take care of me or support me. I am an able-body and should take care of myself without the help of society.
Roads are (sometimes) an exception, but police, fire, and schools are all higher quality when the government is NOT involved but instead when the free market and private sector run its course.
The US was not founded on socialism, but on free-markets, limited government, personal freedoms, and individual responsibility. That's what is supposed to separate us from the rest of the world.
Libertas in infinitum
This is a good explanation of how our income tax system really works.
Sometimes people exclaim; "It's just a tax cut for the rich!" and it is just accepted to be fact.
But what does that really mean?
Just in case you are not completely clear on this issue, I hope the following will help. Please read it carefully.
Let's put tax cuts in terms everyone can understand.
Suppose that every day, ten men go out for dinner and the bill for all ten comes to $100.
If they paid their bill the way we pay our taxes, it would go something like this:
The first four men (the poorest) would pay nothing.
The fifth would pay $1.
The sixth would pay $3.
The seventh would pay $7.
The eighth would pay $12.
The ninth would pay $18.
The tenth man (the richest) would pay $59.
So, that's what they decided to do.
The ten men ate dinner in the restaurant every day and seemed quite happy with the arrangement, until one day, the owner threw them a curve.
"Since you are all such good customers," he said, "I'm going to reduce the cost of your daily meal by $20." Dinner for the ten now cost just $80.
The group still wanted to pay their bill the way we pay our taxes so the first four men were unaffected. They would still eat for free. But what about the other six men - the paying customers? How could they divide the $20 windfall so that everyone would get his 'fair share?'
They realized that $20 divided by six is $3.33. But if they subtracted that from everybody's share, then the fifth man and the sixth man would each end up being paid to eat their meal.
So, the restaurant owner suggested that it would be fair to reduce each man's bill by roughly the same amount, and he proceeded to work out the amounts each should pay.
And so:
The fifth man, like the first four, now paid nothing (100% savings).
The sixth now paid $2 instead of $3 (33% savings).
The seventh now paid $5 instead of $7 (28% savings).
The eighth now paid $9 instead of $12 (25% savings).
The ninth now paid $14 instead of $18 (22% savings).
The tenth now paid $49 instead of $59 (16% savings).
Each of the six was better off than before. And the first four continued to eat for free. But once outside the restaurant, the men began to compare their savings.
"I only got a dollar out of the $20," declared the sixth man. He pointed to the tenth man, "but he got $10!"
"Yeah, that's right," exclaimed the fifth man. "I only saved a dollar, too. It's unfair that he got ten times more than me!"
"That's true!!" shouted the seventh man. "Why should he get $10 back when I got only two? The wealthy get all the breaks!"
"Wait a minute," yelled the first four men in unison. "We didn't get anything at all. The system exploits the poor!"
The nine men surrounded the tenth and beat him up.
The next night the tenth man didn't show up for dinner, so the nine sat down and ate without him. But when it came time to pay the bill, they discovered something important. They didn't have enough money between all of them for even half of the bill!
And that, boys and girls, journalists and college professors, is how our income tax system works. The people who pay the highest taxes get the most benefit from a tax reduction. Tax them too much, attack them for being wealthy, and they just may not show up anymore. In fact, they might start eating overseas where the atmosphere might be somewhat friendlier.
Libertas in infinitum
108 years... dont worry American and other taxpayers will be paying for the War on Terror.. (or more particular war on their own and everyones own populations) for probably about this time as well. Kill the DCMA, Kill the Warmongers ability to influence anything, Kill only the real militants. Just Enough of Killing Democracy and the Human rights of everyone on the Planet!!! Darren
Yes, but if it's paid for by state or local taxes I have the option of leaving the state or much more easily voting out my state representatives. Not so with federal.
T Money
World Domination with a plastic spoon since 1984
Uhm well really I think more enquiering minds want to know is this some attempted means of compensating americians for King George's dark desiere's to delve into our own private conversations to satify his own deep seated perversian's?
Or is he trying to buy back are layalties with his governmental powers?
Ok so being rather consiresicist but hey given the current administration can you blame me.
Coward? Coward! Thems fighten words!!
If you sign up for their $9.95/month plan, you will receive a bill each month for precisely $9.95. Not a penny more, and not a penny less.
I can't tell you how refreshing that is from a "teleco". Pretty sad, eh?
"Avoid employing unlucky people - throw half of the pile of CVs in the bin without reading them." -- David Brent