Yes, the cheap (around $200) ATX dual 2P Opteron boards are not NUMA boards. We're not talking about a whole bunch of boards though. There are only 2 ATX Opteron boards that I know of (Tyan Tiger K8W and MSI's Master-FAR thing). Both send all memory access through CPU0. The performance hit isn't much except for in the extreme cases when memory bandwidth is a bottleneck.
Most of the normal EATX boards are actually around $400-430. Again, there isn't a lot of choice in the Opteron world, especially if you want workstation features like audio and an AGP slot. Tyan's Thunder K8W and IWill's DK8X are popular choices.
However, the current board of choice is IWill's DK8N, and it's around $500. It uses the nForce Pro chipset for Opteron just like this SFF case.
Believe it or not, many ATX cases will hold an EATX board. Most EATX cases just have more drive bays. The motherboard space is usually about the same. I hate large cases too. That's why I like the SFF dual Opteron thing. Power supply is another story though, you need an EPS12v style power harness (Tagan makes a nice Zalman-like EPS12v supply).
However, the limit of only 2GB RAM completely kills the deal for the SFF product. My dual Opteron 250 VMware workstation would be crippled with such a limit. I'll have to wait for the next version. I really, really want a SFF case though. Crappy, large, heavy, loud cases are so 90's.
Lets see... We have Intel with PCI-Express, DDR2, high bandwidth low-CPU usage SATA, full speed GBe, and all in a MicroATX form... At AMD I get, uh, crap like PCI and AGP from the 90's era.
Good CPU's for sure, but the motherboards are not a reason I would pick AMD.
I've been holding off on buying a new system for several years because of the situation. I want a 64-bit system that can run generically compiled applications well (eg. Linux) and AMD has the right CPU for that. However, all the available motherboards for AMD suck.
Depends on how you look at it. For me the MythTV solution was very cheap. I don't count the price of the PC because it was already waiting for the trash bin. I don't count the DVD burner because I already had it for doing my backups. So for me and a lot of others like me, it is a very cheap and good solution.
Now, while I'm ranting, I should say that you could spend a hell of a lot less on hard drives if you did software encoding... An 800MHz system would probably be fast enough to do realtime MPEG-2, and with an Nvidia Geforce card, you could do realtime playback with 99% of the processing done on the card, with free TV-out to boot.
Hmmm, doesn't sound like you've ever tried to actually do any of this. The PVR encoding is beautiful and very high quality. Again, one of the advantages of the MythTV setup is that I can pick whatever encoding rate I want. Sure, I could save tons of space with low bit-rate encodings. However, when I sit down to watch a recording I want it to look like I'm watching a live cable signal, not some crappy computer encoded video. Even the 1GB/hr on the TiVo looks pretty crappy to me. The PVR-250/350 can encode at the 1GB/hr and it's hard to tell that it's a recording (at least on a normal s-video type TV).
The other issue is output. I've never seen software decoded output that looks 100% perfect. There are all sorts of syncing issues to prevent tearing and other negative effects. The PVR-350 can put mpeg-2 straight to an S-Video connection with absolute perfect fidelity.
Sure, you can save $150 and go software encoding. You'll need more than an 800 Mhz P3 if you want to really use the system though. For example, there is no way a software encoding/decoding machine could record and playback at the same time. My PVR-350 machine does that with something like 2% or less CPU usage. Then there is the commercial detection that needs some CPU to do it's thing (it runs in the background at low priority though).
Gah, it's probably your video card and/or your settings more than anything else (make sure GDK_USE_XFT is defined in your environment).
nVidia is the only way to go on Linux. Sorry but everything just works so much better with nVidia.
GNOME starts up hella faster than KDE. It feels a lot better, the fonts look better, I like the consistant button placement, and after getting used to the GUI OK-button-always-on-the-right I wish everything was like that. KDE feels "clicky", I don't know how else to explain it. Little things popping here and there like it's got sharp corners. Konqueror is a good example, it feels snappy but it renders many pages incorrectly and just plain doesn't work on a lot of sites that Firefox has no problems with.
With that said, I use KDE as my desktop. I do this for several reasons but there is one main reason. GNOME's ass panel. After many, many years it continues, to this day, to rearrange the applets on the panel. No matter what locking you do or whatever, it still does this. That is so annoying that I can't use GNOME. That and GNOME lacks a decent calendering application like KOrganizer (don't even mention that piece of crap known as evolution).
Nautilus is tons better than Konq also. At first Nautilus sucked but it has gotten really good lately.
- My old 800 Mhz P3 computer from years ago - "Free"
- Newer, quieter power supply - $50
- 400 GB worth of hard-drives bought over the course of a few months with CompUSA rebates - $230
Then MythTV + Zap2It datadirect.
So for $460 I have a 400 hour PVR. Of course it would be a lot cheaper for just a 120 hour machine (substract about $180).
It's better than TiVo for a number of reasons:
- I can watch the recorded shows from any computer in the house from the web interface. The web interface lets me do things like schedule shows, see the program guide, and watch recordings.
- I can easily burn anything I record to DVD because everything from the PVR-350 is recorded in standard MPEG2 DVD format. I don't even need to re-encode, I just burn straight to DVD (fast).
- MythTV is way more configurable than TiVo. I mean, there are settings for doing all sorts of things.
- Things like MythVideo let me watch stuff that wasn't recorded on the machine (like downloaded items or whatever; stuff recorded from your old VHS tapes, etc.)
And probably other stuff I'm forgetting.
With the PVR-350 you absolutely do not need a powerful computer. I ran MythTV on a 200 Mhz Celeron system with PVR-350 for over a year. MythTV itself is kinda slow but there are a lot of people working on making it better. The video quality is excellent though. Even the "low quality" (1GB per hour) is way better than what TiVo encodes.
I agree. I don't think he knows what he is talking about. He said services are "listening" and that may be true but the firewall is blocking everything by default.
Today I built a fresh XP machine with SP2. I just scanned that machine with nmap and it showed absolutely nothing open except the VNC port that I specifically configured. The machine doesn't even return pings. I'd say that's a pretty tight default setup.
What's the deal with the Sonata case? I see a lot of people getting them.
It's huge. Who wants a gigantor case like that? That's so, old-school... like, "look I gots me a server case! It can hold 20 drives and 4 motherboards!" Pffft. There are small and boring cases too, no? MicroATX... yeah
How is the power supply noise-wise? I've never had an Antec. How does it compare to the Zalman?
There are cheaper cards that can do media decoding. Plus all those high-end card have huge honking loud-ass fans on them.
Are you going to be running Doom3 on it or something?
I use low-end GeForce cards for my arcade machines (like the GF4-440; no fans!) and for my HTPC I use the PVR-350 output... wonderful card that. You see, all that stuff is just 2D output which isn't really that different from low to high-end.
Yeah but that's all calculations and models and shit. It doesn't sound like they actually tested it.
Ugh, people are so stupid. Test things you morons!. They would've realized the chains are weak and the rotors need stablization. Models and calculations are only for making rough estimates. You need to get it out in the real world to know if it's really going to work.
This is just like that X-Prize group that is going to try in October without ever having tested their stuff. "We gots good calculations and simulations"... Idiots...
But these types of questions are exactly the kind that are usually spinning around in my head.
However inflammatory, they are the questions I'm wondering about. That's why they are such big issues. I love (good) flame wars because I get to hear arguments from both sides and then make up my own mind. More information helps me make my decisions.
I looked at this article and came to the same conclusion as you.
However, I would like a higher-end Athlon tested because the 3500+ number isn't comparable to Intel's clock speed (and I'm amazed at how many people think it does like in this article).
As experience has shown time and again, nothing can equal the results of a live test.
It's like learning martial arts without ever practicing with full contact. All that simulation is worth very little in a real fight because there are so many more things going on.
I see programmers do this kind of crap all the time. They code stuff up and don't test very well. Then it gets out in the field and the damn thing falls apart.
If I had to guess I would say these guys have a 10% chance of success and 25% chance of catastrophic failure involving loss of life.
I'm behind a NAT box and games work fine. Some games may have special requirements but modern NAT boxes tend to understand the protocols (I'm pretty sure games like Quake3 will work no matter what).
P2P is going to be somewhat of a problem. But only for people trying to connect to you. Some of the modern P2P protocols can work around it (by way of you initiating the outgoing connection). Other than that all the P2P stuff I have used worked (although I'm not a big P2P user).
All in all, NAT isn't that bad and most of the time I don't even notice it's there. It's my NAT box though, so it's a little different. However, I haven't done any special configuration other than allowing the occasional VNC/SSH connection to internal machines.
I've had an account/e-mail with VMware since they were in beta (many, many years ago) and I've never once gotten spam on that account (not a single spam message other than annoucements from VMware).
True, but for many people it's quite easy and cheap to build a several terabyte array. Trying to find a backup solution for that size array is not cheap or easy.
For example, my MythTV machine has a 1 TB array. I don't necessarily want to make a backup of that system but I wouldn't want to lose all that data either. A RAID array is good enough and cheap.
Now, if we're talking about losing $100k of data like the original poster said, then yeah, a backup solution is a must and would be a good investment. Often my "must never lose" data will fit on several DVD's so that is a cheap backup solution if you don't have much data.
I've never had a manufacturer ask for the receipt. Most (all?) of the drives nowadays are stamped with the manufacture date on them and often even have the warrenty expiration date.
They make nice little machines. As I've said many times before, quiet and small is the future for PC's.
They have always been rather pricey though. And they never seem to get cheaper. Even the very old versions cost the same as they did when they were the latest design. All they do is keep coming out with new versions that cost even more. Goofy. That's why I haven't bought another in several years.
I wish someone would take this design a step farther. That is, since they are supplying the motherboard, power supply, and case there is a perfect opportunity to tie the components that get hot to the case. You know, to be cooled from outside the case by using the case itself as a giant heatsink (just add some subtle ridges/fins to the outside). That way you have less fans and more room inside. Or more room to make the whole thing even smaller.
That's exactly my problem. The dual-layer drives are pretty cheap but there's no media. I'm just holding off waiting (and wanting) to buy a drive until the media is available.
Or maybe someone will come up with a hack for my Sony DRX-500ULX that will let me write to dual-layer discs (that would rock because I love this drive).
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Yeah but can you even get 2GB registered sticks? Even if you can get them I doubt they would be cost effective.
Yes, the cheap (around $200) ATX dual 2P Opteron boards are not NUMA boards. We're not talking about a whole bunch of boards though. There are only 2 ATX Opteron boards that I know of (Tyan Tiger K8W and MSI's Master-FAR thing). Both send all memory access through CPU0. The performance hit isn't much except for in the extreme cases when memory bandwidth is a bottleneck.
Most of the normal EATX boards are actually around $400-430. Again, there isn't a lot of choice in the Opteron world, especially if you want workstation features like audio and an AGP slot. Tyan's Thunder K8W and IWill's DK8X are popular choices.
However, the current board of choice is IWill's DK8N, and it's around $500. It uses the nForce Pro chipset for Opteron just like this SFF case.
Believe it or not, many ATX cases will hold an EATX board. Most EATX cases just have more drive bays. The motherboard space is usually about the same. I hate large cases too. That's why I like the SFF dual Opteron thing. Power supply is another story though, you need an EPS12v style power harness (Tagan makes a nice Zalman-like EPS12v supply).
However, the limit of only 2GB RAM completely kills the deal for the SFF product. My dual Opteron 250 VMware workstation would be crippled with such a limit. I'll have to wait for the next version. I really, really want a SFF case though. Crappy, large, heavy, loud cases are so 90's.
It seemed that all the boards I wanted were AMD.
Uh, what?
Lets see... We have Intel with PCI-Express, DDR2, high bandwidth low-CPU usage SATA, full speed GBe, and all in a MicroATX form... At AMD I get, uh, crap like PCI and AGP from the 90's era.
Good CPU's for sure, but the motherboards are not a reason I would pick AMD.
I've been holding off on buying a new system for several years because of the situation. I want a 64-bit system that can run generically compiled applications well (eg. Linux) and AMD has the right CPU for that. However, all the available motherboards for AMD suck.
Your PVR-250 is bad or your hookup is bad. It shouldn't be like that.
Depends on how you look at it. For me the MythTV solution was very cheap. I don't count the price of the PC because it was already waiting for the trash bin. I don't count the DVD burner because I already had it for doing my backups. So for me and a lot of others like me, it is a very cheap and good solution.
Now, while I'm ranting, I should say that you could spend a hell of a lot less on hard drives if you did software encoding... An 800MHz system would probably be fast enough to do realtime MPEG-2, and with an Nvidia Geforce card, you could do realtime playback with 99% of the processing done on the card, with free TV-out to boot.
Hmmm, doesn't sound like you've ever tried to actually do any of this. The PVR encoding is beautiful and very high quality. Again, one of the advantages of the MythTV setup is that I can pick whatever encoding rate I want. Sure, I could save tons of space with low bit-rate encodings. However, when I sit down to watch a recording I want it to look like I'm watching a live cable signal, not some crappy computer encoded video. Even the 1GB/hr on the TiVo looks pretty crappy to me. The PVR-250/350 can encode at the 1GB/hr and it's hard to tell that it's a recording (at least on a normal s-video type TV).
The other issue is output. I've never seen software decoded output that looks 100% perfect. There are all sorts of syncing issues to prevent tearing and other negative effects. The PVR-350 can put mpeg-2 straight to an S-Video connection with absolute perfect fidelity.
Sure, you can save $150 and go software encoding. You'll need more than an 800 Mhz P3 if you want to really use the system though. For example, there is no way a software encoding/decoding machine could record and playback at the same time. My PVR-350 machine does that with something like 2% or less CPU usage. Then there is the commercial detection that needs some CPU to do it's thing (it runs in the background at low priority though).
Maybe, but the Replay costs more. You gotta add that $12/mo or $300 to the price. It's way more expensive.
Gah, it's probably your video card and/or your settings more than anything else (make sure GDK_USE_XFT is defined in your environment).
nVidia is the only way to go on Linux. Sorry but everything just works so much better with nVidia.
GNOME starts up hella faster than KDE. It feels a lot better, the fonts look better, I like the consistant button placement, and after getting used to the GUI OK-button-always-on-the-right I wish everything was like that. KDE feels "clicky", I don't know how else to explain it. Little things popping here and there like it's got sharp corners. Konqueror is a good example, it feels snappy but it renders many pages incorrectly and just plain doesn't work on a lot of sites that Firefox has no problems with.
With that said, I use KDE as my desktop. I do this for several reasons but there is one main reason. GNOME's ass panel. After many, many years it continues, to this day, to rearrange the applets on the panel. No matter what locking you do or whatever, it still does this. That is so annoying that I can't use GNOME. That and GNOME lacks a decent calendering application like KOrganizer (don't even mention that piece of crap known as evolution).
Nautilus is tons better than Konq also. At first Nautilus sucked but it has gotten really good lately.
This is what I used:
- PVR-350 - $180
- My old 800 Mhz P3 computer from years ago - "Free"
- Newer, quieter power supply - $50
- 400 GB worth of hard-drives bought over the course of a few months with CompUSA rebates - $230
Then MythTV + Zap2It datadirect.
So for $460 I have a 400 hour PVR. Of course it would be a lot cheaper for just a 120 hour machine (substract about $180).
It's better than TiVo for a number of reasons:
- I can watch the recorded shows from any computer in the house from the web interface. The web interface lets me do things like schedule shows, see the program guide, and watch recordings.
- I can easily burn anything I record to DVD because everything from the PVR-350 is recorded in standard MPEG2 DVD format. I don't even need to re-encode, I just burn straight to DVD (fast).
- MythTV is way more configurable than TiVo. I mean, there are settings for doing all sorts of things.
- Things like MythVideo let me watch stuff that wasn't recorded on the machine (like downloaded items or whatever; stuff recorded from your old VHS tapes, etc.)
And probably other stuff I'm forgetting.
With the PVR-350 you absolutely do not need a powerful computer. I ran MythTV on a 200 Mhz Celeron system with PVR-350 for over a year. MythTV itself is kinda slow but there are a lot of people working on making it better. The video quality is excellent though. Even the "low quality" (1GB per hour) is way better than what TiVo encodes.
I agree. I don't think he knows what he is talking about. He said services are "listening" and that may be true but the firewall is blocking everything by default.
Today I built a fresh XP machine with SP2. I just scanned that machine with nmap and it showed absolutely nothing open except the VNC port that I specifically configured. The machine doesn't even return pings. I'd say that's a pretty tight default setup.
What's the deal with the Sonata case? I see a lot of people getting them.
It's huge. Who wants a gigantor case like that? That's so, old-school... like, "look I gots me a server case! It can hold 20 drives and 4 motherboards!" Pffft. There are small and boring cases too, no? MicroATX... yeah
How is the power supply noise-wise? I've never had an Antec. How does it compare to the Zalman?
Just curious. Why?
There are cheaper cards that can do media decoding. Plus all those high-end card have huge honking loud-ass fans on them.
Are you going to be running Doom3 on it or something?
I use low-end GeForce cards for my arcade machines (like the GF4-440; no fans!) and for my HTPC I use the PVR-350 output... wonderful card that. You see, all that stuff is just 2D output which isn't really that different from low to high-end.
Meh, yes and no. While I agree with everything you said, it's no different anywhere else on the Net. It's all one big clusterfuck.
So where do "geeks" hang out? I hope you're not thinking Kuro5hin because it's just a pompous version of Slashdot.
But seriously, is there a magical place on the Net for geeks where people are civilized and intelligent without being egotistical asses?
Hi
Yeah but that's all calculations and models and shit. It doesn't sound like they actually tested it.
Ugh, people are so stupid. Test things you morons!. They would've realized the chains are weak and the rotors need stablization. Models and calculations are only for making rough estimates. You need to get it out in the real world to know if it's really going to work.
This is just like that X-Prize group that is going to try in October without ever having tested their stuff. "We gots good calculations and simulations"... Idiots...
But these types of questions are exactly the kind that are usually spinning around in my head.
However inflammatory, they are the questions I'm wondering about. That's why they are such big issues. I love (good) flame wars because I get to hear arguments from both sides and then make up my own mind. More information helps me make my decisions.
I looked at this article and came to the same conclusion as you.
However, I would like a higher-end Athlon tested because the 3500+ number isn't comparable to Intel's clock speed (and I'm amazed at how many people think it does like in this article).
As experience has shown time and again, nothing can equal the results of a live test.
It's like learning martial arts without ever practicing with full contact. All that simulation is worth very little in a real fight because there are so many more things going on.
I see programmers do this kind of crap all the time. They code stuff up and don't test very well. Then it gets out in the field and the damn thing falls apart.
If I had to guess I would say these guys have a 10% chance of success and 25% chance of catastrophic failure involving loss of life.
I'm behind a NAT box and games work fine. Some games may have special requirements but modern NAT boxes tend to understand the protocols (I'm pretty sure games like Quake3 will work no matter what).
P2P is going to be somewhat of a problem. But only for people trying to connect to you. Some of the modern P2P protocols can work around it (by way of you initiating the outgoing connection). Other than that all the P2P stuff I have used worked (although I'm not a big P2P user).
All in all, NAT isn't that bad and most of the time I don't even notice it's there. It's my NAT box though, so it's a little different. However, I haven't done any special configuration other than allowing the occasional VNC/SSH connection to internal machines.
No way.
I've had an account/e-mail with VMware since they were in beta (many, many years ago) and I've never once gotten spam on that account (not a single spam message other than annoucements from VMware).
Must be from somewhere else.
True, but for many people it's quite easy and cheap to build a several terabyte array. Trying to find a backup solution for that size array is not cheap or easy.
For example, my MythTV machine has a 1 TB array. I don't necessarily want to make a backup of that system but I wouldn't want to lose all that data either. A RAID array is good enough and cheap.
Now, if we're talking about losing $100k of data like the original poster said, then yeah, a backup solution is a must and would be a good investment. Often my "must never lose" data will fit on several DVD's so that is a cheap backup solution if you don't have much data.
you will have to submit the original receipt.
I've never had a manufacturer ask for the receipt. Most (all?) of the drives nowadays are stamped with the manufacture date on them and often even have the warrenty expiration date.
But if you're using proper procedures it shouldn't be a problem. RAID array, backups if you can... etc.
Then when a drive in your RAID array fails, it can be replaced under warrenty for 5 years. Sounds like a good deal to me.
Nothing with as many moving parts as a hard-drive is going to last forever.
They make nice little machines. As I've said many times before, quiet and small is the future for PC's.
They have always been rather pricey though. And they never seem to get cheaper. Even the very old versions cost the same as they did when they were the latest design. All they do is keep coming out with new versions that cost even more. Goofy. That's why I haven't bought another in several years.
I wish someone would take this design a step farther. That is, since they are supplying the motherboard, power supply, and case there is a perfect opportunity to tie the components that get hot to the case. You know, to be cooled from outside the case by using the case itself as a giant heatsink (just add some subtle ridges/fins to the outside). That way you have less fans and more room inside. Or more room to make the whole thing even smaller.
That's exactly my problem. The dual-layer drives are pretty cheap but there's no media. I'm just holding off waiting (and wanting) to buy a drive until the media is available.
Or maybe someone will come up with a hack for my Sony DRX-500ULX that will let me write to dual-layer discs (that would rock because I love this drive).
Uh, pretty much all electronics have lead in them. Lead solder is what holds most electronic stuff together.
"Gay? I wish!"
-- Troy McClure