Step By Step: Building a MythTV PVR for $635

hesby writes "Anandtech has just published the first half of a two-part article on building a MythTV PVR that they will ultimately compare with Microsoft's Windows Media Center Edition on very similar hardware. As a result, they selected some components that the average user might not choose, just to keep things fair in the second part, where they pit the two PVRs head to head."

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[Anonymous Coward]

You can buy a TiVo for $99.

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[v1x]

Dont forget the monthly subscription sharges for the Tivo service. An HTPC is a lot more expandable too.

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[Anonymous Coward]

$99 + $299 lifetime fee = still cheaper. Heck, you can replace the hard drive with a bigger one and still come out ahead.

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[typhoonius]

You can buy a TiVo for $99.

The article argues that you'll save money by not having to pay TiVo a monthly fee. Besides, for some of us, building a cool machine is an end in and of itself.

Anyway, I tried pricing a MythTV box a couple of days ago with a goal of keeping it under $500, and this is what I ended up with (copied right out of the link above):

• CD/DVD drive ($52)--Combo CD and DVD-writer. DVD-recording isn't essential, so I might downgrade this to a CD-RW/DVD-ROM combo drive.
• Hard disk drive ($99)--160 GB, S-ATA, very quiet. A P-ATA drive with the same buffer is nearly the same price.
• Video card ($109)--CATV in, composite out, works with Linux and FreeBSD. The only people who dislike it seem to be kids who want to play Doom III on it.
• Sound card--Onboard might be good enough for now with a $5 3.5"-headphone-to-composite-audio cable from Radio Shack.
• Processor ($65)--Athlon XP 2000+, cheap, adequate. Retail instead of OEM so I don't have to get a heatsink/fan separately.
• Motherboard ($53)--Micro-ATX, S-ATA, AGP 8x. Committed to MSI because a motherboard without Engrish just isn't a motherboard. Three PCI slots for wireless adapter, eventually a sound card, and I dunno, 1394?
• Memory ($76)--512 MB DDR333, cheaper than DDR266. Screw dual-channel.
• Case/power supply--Needs something that can fit the video card (guess that entails finding a mobo that horizontally orients expansion cards if I don't want a lame-o tower).
• Wireless adapter ($30)--802.11g, cheap, works with Linux and FreeBSD. Going wireless so it isn't stuck in the same room as the router (and no way I'm running cat-5 everywhere in 20-mother-fucking-04).

Subtotal: $484.

Still need a case--certainly won't be paying $100+ for one like the article did--and probably a sound card that isn't onboard crap. It probably won't make the $500 goal, but it looks alright (barring any major oversights on my part).

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[MarsDefenseMinister]

Ridiculous.

When we want something, we usually exchange something called "money" for what we want. We have money, which really isn't any good for anything except getting other things you want.

And someone else has a TiVo service, which they want to give some someone with money. They can't eat TiVo service, after all.

So, we both do something called an "exchange". We give them the money, and they give us the TiVo service. This is not a one-sided transaction. We had money which we didn't want, but the other person did. They had some TiVo service, which they can't eat, but can give to us in exchange for the "money" that they can use to get something to eat from someone else. To say that it's cornholing, or flagpole rape is just a little ridiculous.

So as I said, it's not a one-sided deal. Both parties of this exchange of "money" for "TiVo service" benefit. In fact, usually both parties are so pleased at the exchange from which both of them benefitted, that they say "thank you" to each other at the conclusion of the deal.

So buy the damn TiVo service and qwitcherbitchin.

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[MBCook]

Not a bad list, but you really should "splurge" on the Happguage PVR-250 card. It does the encoding in hardware, so even a low end box could easily support two tuners. With the card you put in your list, all the encoding would fall on the CPU. Not only that, I'm not sure that nVidia's personal cinema is supported under Linux. An integrated video card (on the motherboard) would do fine as long as it had TV out that was supported under Linux (and looked half decent). Wouldn't even need that if you used a monitor.

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[TheRealMindChild]

Well, first, you didnt include shipping in any of the estimate. This is usually mistake #1.

Secondly, it appears newegg.com is pulling an amazon.com. I went to their site and found the prices a little different then yours, so ans an experiment, I connected to my work machine, and used IE instead of Firefox, and checked out those prices... again, slightly different then what even I saw before

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[pyrrhonist]

Committed to MSI because a motherboard without Engrish just isn't a motherboard.

LOL. Thanks, now I finally have a quote for my sig.

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[Anonymous Coward]

Newegg offers free FedEx on a lot of things, and on other things its still pretty cheap, so I doubt it would add too much to his order.

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[Anonymous Coward]

We had money which we didn't want

Really? I don't suppose you could pass me some of that money you don't want, then?

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[NoMoreNicksLeft]

Who said it's necessary to subscribe? It took all of a week, for me to find someone else's perl scripts for writing my own guide data. Besides, as nice as Tivo is, it's the Apple iBook of PVRs when I really wanted an Alphaserver. Ever try to get 2 tivo's to coordinate, when you've hit a timeblock where you'll want heavy recording? They're just not that bright. I've got my central server farming out recording tasks of all the PVRs, managing things (not that my personal software is perfect either, it screws up from time to time...). My goal, is to get a DirecTivo series 1, and a Dish 721, so that I can retask my original tivos to C band, starchoice and broadcast. Wouldn't mind getting a Motorola DCT5200 either...

A generic PC architecture just isn't robust enough, unless you want to risk it barfing on the last play of the superbowl, or the last episode of the Sopranos.

I've never really understood this need to do the "homebrew PVR" thing. Sure, people still build their own cars today, even though Fords and Chevys are pretty nice... but they're $100,000 labor of love hotrods. These things are jalopy AMC pacers with hamsters on treadmills under the hood.

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[doormat]

Only up to 137GB due to long-LBA issues. Only the HiDef Tivo supports LBA48, allowing HDs larger than 137GB to be recognized correctly (it still recognizes larger HDs, but only sees the first 137GB). The most you can get for a regular Tivo is 300 hours of TV.

For the PC based Tivo, if I get a RAID 5 card and a few 250GB HDs, I could have 1TB+ of storage - enough for TV shows and a video on demand system with a bunch of my DVDs ripped. Yes, it gets a lot more expensive, but 250GB drives are under $150 these days (Fry's ad had both PATA and SATA 250GB drives for under $150 - no MIRs).

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[SensitiveMale]

Dont forget the monthly subscription sharges for the Tivo service.

I haven't paid a monthly fee to Tivo in almost 5 years.

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[AresTheImpaler]

I haven't paid a monthly fee to Tivo in almost 5 years.

Ok, I'm curious.. how do you manage with out the service then? I want to buy an tivo, but don't want to pay either.. :D

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[enrico_suave]

ah but that's after rebate =)

Tivo's are great (I love mine), but I really like the flexibility of rolling my own ( so much so I put up a community dedicated to building your own PVR )

DIY is MORE about control and creativity than it is about saving a buck (you'd figure the /. OSS zealots would be more into a TRUE OSS HTPC than the linux-based but mostly propietary/locked up (series 2) TiVo box).

Although if you are creative with existing components you can build a tivo-esque workalike pretty cheap.

And don't forget our tinfoil hat paranoid faction, who would rather have control of who or which company's get our viewing habit data (anonymized/aggregated or not).

*shrug* YMMV

e.

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[Anonymous Coward]

Hmm... what's the monthly fee for TiVo... $10 a month?

You'd have to wait four and a half years before you were monetarily ahead in that case.

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[SuicidalLabRat]

It seems to me the exercise is in comparing like systems, namely, MythTV and MS's WMCE, not in justifying an HTPC build against TiVo, they aren't even parallel products. To do this, it seems reasonable to be building on comparable hardware across the test; this platform should represent an acceptable standard of technology for the application -seems reasonable to assume relatively high end componentry here. If I felt this was meant to be a statement cost : feature : market, I could see griping the cost, but... SLR-

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[Anonymous Coward]

I'm gonna take a wild shot in the dark here and say that he probably paid the lifetime fee.

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[bhhenry]

Just for clarity, that's the "lifetime" of the unit, not your lifetime. Too bad if you want to upgrade.

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[erick99]

Only 300 hours? When do you folks watch all of this tv that you are recording? I have a hard time watching a few hours a week without the help of even a VCR. I love tv, don't get me wrong. I just have no idea when I would be able to watch 300 or more hours of tv. And, I am assuming that the PVR's are sucking in more each day. I would get panicky wondering when I could catch up . . . .

Cheers,

Erick

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[Alizarin Erythrosin]

I built one out of an old P3 Dell I had laying around, as an experiment. I used a Hauppauge WinPVR 350. I just rebooted it earlier today but this is about usual:
22:34:59 up 3:21, 4 users, load average: 0.00, 0.01, 0.00

An added plus, I can have as many tuners in there as I have PCI slots, should I want. I could purchase a WinPVR 250 for the encoding, use that as the primary recorder, and get another one for PiP. Or any multitude of other options, like putting a card in my dual Opteron server. It's quite flexible.

Anyways, what I was getting at is, you don't need an uber powerful computer just to watch/record tv. Playing Divx might take horsepower. I had priced out a computer with a low power Athlon XP, 2 tuners, monster hd, etc. I happened to score a 160gb drive on sale at Newegg, a PVR350 card, and a dvd burner (also on sale). So I built a Tivo for about $350, no monthly fees, expandable, and the most expensive item was the PVR350.

(For reference, the computer I had priced out was about $750, including a nice case and good heatsink for the CPU so it runs cool and quiet)

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[Anonymous Coward]

DirecTivo customers pay $4.95. That's $60/yr. $600 - $99 leaves $501, which is 8+ years of Tivo service.

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[Da w00t]

It's called a lifetime subscription. Those of us who bought in back when the subscription was $99 got a great deal. I own 4 tivos, and they all have lifetime service on them. Cheaper in the long run.

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[Rude Turnip]

Lifetime service fee of $300...if you go to sell your Tivo on Ebay, you're guaranteed to recoup 100% of that lifetime fee, if nothing for the hardware.

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[shut_up_man]

I'd buy a Tivo today, but they seem to be US only. There's pages like the TiVo Canada Setup Guide but it seems only slightly less complicated than setting up MythTV. I'd really just like to give the nice Tivo people my money and use their product.

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[kent_eh]

You can buy a TiVo for $99

If you happen to live in one of the two countries that TIVO is available in.

If you live anywhere else in the world, building a MythTV box is one of the few ways to get a PVR. (yeah, I know some cable companies will rent you a box with PVR functions, but they are very short on features, and not hackable)

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[dioscaido]

This LBA issue is resolved in Series 2 Tivo's (the one's they are selling for $99, or $89 if you go to Best Buy). I got mine up to 330 hours (two 160Gb drives). The sky is the limit at this point.

Certainly, the linux/windows PVR has the plus of being able to play other media and donwloaded movies. Although I can't imagine a full fledged linux TiVo interface hack isn't in the works already to permit this functionality (Tivos come with USB, and support ethernet networking).

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[Srin Tuar]

Yes, but it doesnt encode directly into the latest Xvid/Ogg/MKv format does it?

I dont think there's much point in putting such rapidly changing things such as video codecs into hardware, when you can economically buy a fast enough processor with high memory bandwidth, like an athlon64.

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[Anonymous Coward]

So? I already HAD a server. Now I have a DVR with 200GB + 160GB RAID for a total of 360GB of possible recording space.

I've stored ALL of my MP3s on this system. I setup numerous samba shares that allow me to copy music videos directly on and off of the machine over the network.

A new game demo movie? Download it, save it to the drive share, watch it on the TV.

A new DVD? Put in the computer and watch it. Rip it if I really like it.

A new cd? Pop it in the drive, select rip and I'm done.

What about MAME? Or Snes9x? Or any other game emulator?

You see, these are all things I can't do with a TIVO. If you're cheap, and all you want to do is watch TV later, buy a Tivo or a VCR. If you want the full on multimdia experience you will NOT get that with a Tivo.

Or

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[NoMoreNicksLeft]

The parent poster may be a lamer that paid a lifetime subscription, but the proper way is some not-so-easy-to-google perl scripts, that scrape guide data off of tvguide.com and format it for the Tivo.

Nice when you have more than one, in that a computer under your direct control can manage it as if there is more than one. Who wants 3 tivo's all recording the same damn thing? Besides, some things like C band tv, just aren't supported by Tivo.

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[arazor]

Just adding my 2 cents on this

You can get the DirecTV tivo for "free" if you google enough for it but the catch is you have to get 1 year contract. The HD DirecTivo is totaly awesome when it works for a $1000 piece of equipment you think they would of done more testing on the DVI/HDMI aspect of it. Speaking of HD are any of the home brew PVR doing HD yet?

--
5 gmail invites left thezeppo@@@@gmail.removethis.shit.com

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[MBCook]

It's MPEG2. That's pretty good. I wouldn't be suprised to see MPEG4 in the next year or two. As for the audio, transcoding that takes no time at all.

Yes, codecs change fast, but when you can offload 95% of the work the box would be doing, that's nothing to sneeze at.

Besides, you could record in MPEG2, and use your now free CPU time to do the transcoding (which you can also do when nothing is being recorded). That way you get the instant gratification of having things recorded small (and your CPU could handle 2 or 3 recordings at once as long as the HD could) and you could run a low priority cron job to transcode things when nothing else is going on so you get the space advantage.

But if you plan to backup (or just copy) onto DVDs (which are MPEG2), then recording in MPEG2 makes even more sense (because you wouldn't need to transcode to make a disc that would play in any player).

As for the Athlon 64, yes it could handle one or two encodes in real time, but with a RAID and a few cards, you could record 4 or 5 streams with hardware encoding. Also, MythTV supports multiple front/backends. That means you can take your old PII 233, stick a PVR-250 in it, and with a little setup it would look like an extra tuner to your main MythTV box. That would only cost you $99 or the card. Your idea would require a much faster computer.

The ideal solution would be some very fast ASIC/DSP/PGA that you could configure on the fly to do hardware encoding of any format, but that probably won't show up for years.

Also note that a hardware encoding chip does the work much more efficently (in terms of electricity used and heat produced) than a general purpose processor like a P4 or Athlon 64.

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[KenFury]

I went the used route with my system. As I work in a PC shop many parts were free/cheap.

Case - MATX athenatech A100 $50 retail
Mobo - Asrock socket A K7S41 ?? cheap 42ish
Ram - 256 PC 2100 very cheap these days as everyone wants 2700 or 3200.
CPU - Moble XP 1400 FREE (found it in the shop) with a Volcano 11 set to minimum noise (38-41 C)
HD - 160 Seagate 8meg cache drive (the 8 vs. 2 meg helps a lot)
Media - DVD drive I dont burn so who cares.
Sound - SB live value. FREE Customer wanted an Audigy, so I kept the old sound card.
Video - Geforce 3 500. FREE Oh, baby so sweet. Some guy went from this to a radeon 9700. You better belive I kept the Geforce.
MPEG - 2 Haughpup 250's. 150-175 for the pair. With these I can run two streams and still be under 50% load.

Now this box took me a bit over a year to get the needed parts for but my point is you do not need a screaming system to do PVR. this one box does; p2p, mp3 storage, pvr, mame, and shell services. Remember boys and girls, slightly used is our friend.

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[pyrrhonist]

I dont think there's much point in putting such rapidly changing things such as video codecs into hardware, when you can economically buy a fast enough processor with high memory bandwidth, like an athlon64.

It's recommended to have about 1Ghz per encoder, so if you want to record two programs, and be able to watch something, you're going to need at least 3 Ghz. Even with this much power, though, there can still be glitches when viewing or recording due to load. However, with with two Hauppauges you can record two shows and watch something at the same time with the machine hardly ticking over.

It's not unheard of to have both a Happguage and a different TV tuner card in the box as well, for when you want to record straight to a format other than MPEG.

Also, many people choose to use a less powerful, but smaller, quieter, and cheap machine like a mini-ITX as a PVR. In this case, it's a requirement to use a Hauppauge if you want to watch and record at the same time.

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[timeOday]

You can buy a TiVo for $99.

Well, that was the topic of the 2nd paragraph of the article. Not that you read it of course.

Anyways, TiVo is always going to offer restricted functionality - after all we wouldn't want to open up the possibility of piracy just so you can do whatever you want with your own hardware.

Then there's the fact that they monitor and record everything you do with your TiVo.

Oh, and reserve part of your(?) hard drive to record programs of their own choosing.

And the pesky subscription fees.

And you can't add a second (or third...) tuner to the Tivo to expand its capabilities, or even put in a bigger hard drive without voiding the warranty.

And of course the TiVo can't also be your fileserver, mailserver, webserver, WiFi access point, mp3 jukebox, and DVD player like my under-the-TV linux box is.

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[Bob(TM)]

Depends on if you want to watch TV in the same room as your box or not. An Athlon-64 outfit with all the fans necessary to run it won't be quiet without additional expense. Likewise, it won't be the tinest box either and, assuming you leave it on 24/7, it would eat a fair amount of power.

The PVR-250 offers onboard MPEG-2 compression which gets you decent quality and acceptable file sizes and you don't need your CPU to do all the work. It would be nice to save some of those cycles to use on playback of the recorded stream (which you'd need to do if watching live TV or a recorded program while your system was recording something else).

You might even sacrifice some of that extraneous processing power and build a fanless Mini-ITX system. No fan noise, lower power consumption, and a tiny box to amaze your friends and fool your enemies.

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[mercuryresearch]

I can only echo the advice for using a PVR-250 (actually I suggest the PVR-350, which is encode and decode).

I've got a MythTV box running on a VIA mini-ITX using the slowest CPU offered, a fanless 533 MHz C3 "Eden." With the PVR-350 it loafs along at sub 5% CPU loading. The only downside to this slow of a CPU is occasionally there's a lag in menu selections or screens that need to do a lot of database work to update, but given the power savings and the fact that the box can be fanless, it's worth it.

Even cooler, I was able to use MythMusic to rip all my CDs that had been living in a 200 CD changer -- now I've got on screen menu, random access to the collection with complete artist/title info, instead of having to look up that a favorite CD is #153 in the changer. And I can create any playlist I want with minimal effort.

Tivo doesn't do anything like this -- one more advantage for MythTV.

Start adding up the cost of consumer electronic devices a Myth box can potentially replace, and it doesn't take long to make a compelling argument based on expense alone.

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[whmac33]

If that's all you want then buy a Tivo.

I have a couple friends that think my MythTV setup is neat. They like the interface, like how I can record 3 shows at once, like how I can watch recordings in the bedroom on my bedroom PC, like how I can burn recordings to a DVD, etc.

But it's not for them. They don't want to deal with compiling and using experimental drivers that sometimes don't work right. They don't want to deal with trying to figure out why it crashes randomly or why audio ticks or how to setup the cron job to update the schedule. But this is the stuff I enjoy. It's fun tinkering. No one is out to compete with Tivo. MythTV developers wrote MythTV for themselves and shared it with the world. Users like myself have submitted patches when needed to make something work the way we want. That's what I like about Myth and why I use it. Yes I spent a lot of money on it but I didn't do it to save money. If I wanted to save money I'd borrow a book from the library. Maybe a grammer book that says when to start a new paragraph.

Billy

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[doormat]

The last time I checked the Series 2 tivos still suffered from LBA48 issues. I've been reading www.tivocommunity.com forums and I havent seen anyone mention a direct-from-tivo update to the software that allows LBA48 - people have hacked it of course, to allow for LBA48 support. But its far more substantial that just pluging in a new HD.

The whole DVDs-on-demand is the primary reason why it would be better to use a PC based PVR as opposed to a Tivo. If all you want is more TV, then get a Tivo.

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[Priyadi]

Tivo is not available outside US.

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[simcop2387]

Simple you use the tivo and a bathtub to induce flashbacks, just record 300 hours of the history channel and boom you've got all of US history, and then some, in a flashback so you can absorb it all

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[dildatron]

It's not exactly the same, but Tivo does play music. You can serve mp3s to your Tivo from another computer, and create playlists and such. I do it all the time over my 802.11b network and it works great. So that's not a huge advantage in my book. I would love to build a mythTV box sometime - it looks like fun. I really like the addons they have made, like the weather and stuff. Tivo should incorporate that I think.

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[realdpk]

How much for a silent or near silent case? Granted the TiVo isn't silent, but most cheap PCs are quite loud, not something I'd want in my living room.

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[Anonymous Coward]

But can TiVo double as a Linux server and/or gaming rig? Considering I'll put a couple hundred into a Linux server anyway (in addition to a Windows gaming desktop), I might as well roll my own.

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[MrWa]

The article argues that you'll save money by not having to pay TiVo a monthly fee. Besides, for some of us, building a cool machine is an end in and of itself.

Basic Tivo Unit: $99
Lifetime of service: $299
Having paid only $400 for a working, warranteed, my-wife-can-use-it, consumer product: Priceless

The only real argument for putting this together is because it can be done. Which is a good reason in almost any case, this one included, I agree. To pitch a DIY PVR as though it is cheaper and easier than a Tivo is just silly though.

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[Anonymous Coward]

Not quite in the same league but I use a 9600XT AIW on my Windows machine. It has the added bonus of FM (which I never actually use), an RF remote, the programming guide is free, and it is also a fairly decent video card ;)
There are several things in the whole package that could be better but only cost $149.
I record my shows and store them on my file server for the other computers in the house to view.

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[oliphaunt]

yeah. but then you need to factor in $20 or $30 for a tivo-compatible USB 802.11b adapter... but the reall killer app for Myth that TiVo just doesn't offer at all is the burn-to-dvd option included in the parent's spec.

Tivo lets you play stuff back through a VCR or standalone DVD-R, but that's a half-assed solution at best. The integrated TiVo + DVD-R boxes from e.g. Pioneer are over $500 for just the hardware. add $300 for lifetime service, and that MythTV box starts to look downright cheap.

why would you want to burn to DVD? well, because you might want to archive something on broadcast, or make copies to give to your friends. As a for-example, I'm on a masters' water polo team, and I'm fanatic about watching and playing polo. But there is never any polo on American TV... except during the Olympics! So yes, I went to Circuit City and bought a $99 TiVo with the 40-gig disk for the SOLE PURPOSE of recording olympic water polo matches. But guess what? Everybody on my team wants to watch them too, but since Tivo records the whole 8-hour block of programming, I had to delete some games from Tivo to make room for the next games. And I noticed something interesting- whatever algorithm Tivo uses to compress the video stream, it has some problems with water, especially at the lower quality settings... Often I could see rectangular divisions in the surface of the pool, and it's even worse on the VHS tapes I tried to make from the TiVo.

When you buy a Tivo, you're buying convenience, but if you also want to buy the ability to make archival copies on DVD, you're going to spend $500 on hardware either way... and then the MythTV box does save you money because you don't have to subscribe to get progam listings.

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[nmos]

The only real argument for putting this together is because it can be done. Which is a good reason in almost any case, this one included, I agree. To pitch a DIY PVR as though it is cheaper and easier than a Tivo is just silly though.

I agree with the cost part of that especially because none of us know how long guide data will be available for free. On the other hand my wife has no problem using MythTV nor do friends and family. It really is just as easy to use as a Tivo. Also, adding MythMusic and MythVideo makes my MythTV setup far more functional than any Tivo.

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[Anonymous Coward]

I'll echo the Hauppage recommendation. Good cards and the encoding in hardware will make this an even sweeter project.

I'd also add that you might consider using a Zalman heatsink/fan. If your keeping the system in the same room your using it, the sound of a small hover-device can be distracting (*especially* to your non-computer fanatic girlfriend/wife/friends).

Oh! Oh! (:)) And if you use two card you can set it up to do picture-in-picture (or with two haupagge encoders, record two of your favorite show that air simulateously).

Lastly, if you have trouble getting MythTV to install (I don't know how new or not you are) try using Mandrake Community 10. After you set up urpmi to to use the PLF Repository installing it can be as simple as running 'urpmi mythtv-suite' from your root prompt (the perl dependencies can be a bitch otherwise).

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[ncc74656]

Only up to 137GB due to long-LBA issues. Only the HiDef Tivo supports LBA48, allowing HDs larger than 137GB to be recognized correctly (it still recognizes larger HDs, but only sees the first 137GB).

Replace the kernel with one that includes LBA48 support. I did that, and my TiVo sees the full 200GB capacity of the hard drive that's currently installed in it.

(When I last looked into it, this wasn't yet an option for Series 2 for some odd reason, though there are some Series 2 models (not just the HD models) that already include an LBA48 kernel. If you have a Series 1 TiVo, though (whether it's one you've had for years or one you just picked up off of eBay), replacing the kernel isn't all that difficult.)

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[Anonymous Coward]

Lifetime of service: $299

Who's lifetime? Mine? Yours? The box's? The company's...? I mean what happens when the MPAA eventually suceeds in wiping out legal digital recording? My Freevo box won't mind, that's for sure.

Anyway, what's the max storage in a TiVo? I already have +200Gb full after a few months... with a linux pc I can add as many drives as I can cool and power.

Silence is the main advantage of the TiVo in my book, but it's possible to built some damn quiet pc:s today.

Anyway, while I'm sorely lacking in the wife department (heh), Freevo's UI has proven to be intuitive to family members age 10-60.

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[drinkypoo]

You left out the price of the case/power supply. This ranges from about $40 up to $200 or so if you don't already have one. That Athlon XP processor with OEM fan requires either an additional exhaust fan set up to pull hot air away from the CPU, or a power supply with dual fans in it. You could use an all-copper cooler with a noisy, fast fan instead, though. Either way it's going to raise the price of the whole thing by about twenty bucks.

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[rusty0101]

Yep, final cost after the 'lifetime' subscription something like $400, or pay $13 a month, as noted earlier.

Hey, if you really want, you can even get a free pvr from Dish. No idea what the quality is like, but the option is there.

Right up till you want to do HDTV.

Now I grant, there is still a lot fo work to do to get everything right on the HDTV front on Linux, or with MythTV, or one of the other PVR featureing collections of software. I can pretty much gaurantee however that if you want to go the TiVo route, or ReplayTV, or even Dish, you are going to have to pretty much discard all the equipment you are using now, probably at a significant discount over what you paied for it, and get new hardware. Ok, you can probably keep the old hardware too, but do you really want to?

Once the bugs are worked out of capturing HDTV, and if necessary playback of HDTV, via one of the several HDTV tuner/capture cards out there, your entire cost for adding HDTV features to a MythTV box are going to be buying and installing the card, updating the software to use the new card (download and install drivers, update configuration, adjust your scheduling collection, etc.) and you can continue to use the same hardware you have been using all along.

Likewise, you're no longer happy with that 27" TV you have been using for the past 4 years, and want to go with one of those new 42" HDTV screens? Great. I suppose you remembered that those screens require a seprate tuner purchase? No? You didn't? Of course you can just install a video card with DVI out, into a MythTV box, and take full advantage of the resolution of the screen right off the bat. Notice how there is not DVI output on the TiVo or ReplayTV boxes? Well, at least not on the $99 ones anyway.

Now I understand with the Series 2 TiVos, (still not sure about the series 2 DirecTivos) you can spend an additional $50 and get the Home Media Option. I think that means you can play video from other tivos in your house, you can plug your digital camera into the USB port and have a slideshow of the photos on your camera, and a few other nice features. All of which can be done right out of the box for MythTV. If someone wants to compare the TiVo's ability to play music files with the features in MythTV, I might be interested in reading about it, but I haven't seen any writeups lately.

I am not completely happy with it as a DVD player yet, but it's better than when I first tried playing DVDs on a computer.

Will it cost more? Sure in materials and time. Is it a better value? Only if you find the additional features and options of value. Is it a good investment? That I am not sure of. But that's a problem for every 'investment'. For some it will be, they may go on to develop associated skills that will save them money down the road. For others it probably won't be. That's the breaks of the game.

Then again, this is mostly just opinion on my part.

-Rusty

Re:Or

[Neon Spiral Injector]

Why are all Hauppauge's cards 5v PCI? I have a really old 44801 that I can't use in my new Opteron machine because it only has 3.3v PCI slots. I looked at Hauppauge's current offerings and even their 350 is still 5 volt.

I wonder how the WinTV-PVR-usb2 is, and if it is supported in Linux?

Re:Or

[Anonymous Coward]

Tivo: $99 Lifetime Service: $299 Home Media Option: $49 Subtotal: $447 The reason to get a myth is because you're a geek, and you want a geeky pvr. It's not because it's cheap.

Re:Or

[Drakon]

Can I have two tuners and one cable decoder? (otherwise, what's the point exactly)

Re:Or

[bit01]

The only real argument for putting this together is because it can be done.

And because Tivo isn't available for 95% of the world's population.

---

It's wrong that an intellectual property creator should not be rewarded for their work.
It's equally wrong that an IP creator should be rewarded too many times for the one piece of work, for exactly the same reasons.
Reform IP law and stop the M$/RIAA abuse.

Re:Or

[FrostedChaos]

Anyways, what I was getting at is, you don't need an uber powerful computer just to watch/record tv. Playing Divx might take horsepower. I had priced out a computer with a low power Athlon XP, 2 tuners, monster hd, etc. I happened to score a 160gb drive on sale at Newegg, a PVR350 card, and a dvd burner (also on sale). So I built a Tivo for about $350, no monthly fees, expandable, and the most expensive item was the PVR350.

Actually, playing Divx should be no problem for the system you outlined. I have an old 500 MHz laptop (PIII core), and I have never had a problem with playing divxes. (Of course, I use *good* movie players like Crystal Player and VLC.) An athlon XP (not sure exactly what core revision that is) should have no problems whatsoever.

Re:Or

[ian mills]

The Happaugauge card is not only worth it because of the hardware encoding, but also because it has a far better tuner and digital converters than any of the bttv cards out there. I have a MythTV box with a bttv card and a pvr-250 and the 250 video is by far better quality. Less noise, better contrast etc. If you shop around you can get them OEM for 70 bucks, which is how much I paid for mine. Way better buy then the bttv card for 50 bucks.

Re:Or

[Anonymous Coward]

NewEgg does not charge S+H... at least on the products mentioned.

Re:Or

[claes]

Your setup sounds very interesting. Can you give more details about it - especially, did you have to do a lot of manual tweaking to get it working?

Re:Or

[Scooter]

I've been doing some experiments with Myth over the last few months, and hardware selection is probably the most interesting part. The problem of getting enough power into a machine to decode/encode DivX/Xvid and do it for Tivo/Kiss money.

The first problem that became apparent was that anything with enough power to encode and decode these Mpeg4 streams was going to make way too much noise, which in turn causes a low SAF (Spouse acceptance factor - "There's no way I'm having that in my lounge!"). Other things that affect the SAF include the shape and colour of the case. If it's a old hearing-aid beige e-machines mini tower - forget it...

Anyway, on the CPU power issue I deceided to make use of Myth's ability to split the functions over 2 boxes (the back end and the front end machines). That meant I could just use my twin Xeon Dell 6400 that sits in the attic to do all the hard stuff like transcoding MP4 to MP2, recording shows and so on whilst making a similar noise to a small jet aircraft... The other advantage of this is that you can then display any of your content in any room equipped with a screen, and a Myth front end - store once, use in many locations. That just leaves selection of some hardware for the front end devices.

I costed up standard PC devices, but ideally wanted a fanless (and possibly driveless) machine. I looked at Shuttle barebones systems, those little VIA all in one mobo+CPU things and lots more besides. I also looked at using an Xbox (cost about £110/$200) but the CPU is woefully underpowered for this task, and by the time you've upgraded the RAM, the HDD etc you may as well have bought that Shuttle barebones system.

Then I found this:-
http://www.hauppauge.com/pages/products/data_media mvp.html

These devices essentially stream MPeg2 (and some other stuff) from a Windows only server. The beta version of the software can transcode from MPeg4 to mpeg2 before streaming the content to the device across the network.

Now this is actually quite useful straight out of the box, but then, a quick google later, it became apparent that these MediaMVP devices run a Linux distro called "BusyBox" on an IBM PPC chip, and boot the image off of DHCP/TFTP!

Not only that, but there's already a load of work been done, and I downloaded all the bits necesary to make the cross compile environment, and tried out some of the modified BusyBOX installs that people had made. It works! With the additional of a telnet daemon, NFS client, these things become truly useful. You can now telnet to the box and play around to get things going, and then incorporate those chnages into the boot image.

So it wasn't long before I thought this would be ideal to run a Myth front end. Like most ideas that are this obvious - it's already been thought if and the best place to start is here:-
http://mythmvp.org/

Unfortunately for me, my test MVP got taken out by an electrical storm that caused a power surge, detroying that and several Linksys WET11's on my network... bummer.

Best of all though - these MVP's are £50 and have hardware Mpeg2 decoders! (~$100) and stream MPEG2 even over 802.11b wireless with no problems, so it won't cost me much to get back up and running again (and hey, I was planning on upgrading my Wifi to 802.11g anyway :P)

Big fat video/PVR server - thin and cheap clients that's the way to go. Of course all of this is just temporary: I mean why do I want to store the shows? Really, I want someone else to host the back end and charge me a subscription to watch and listen to any show/movie/music track that ever existed. But in the meantime, as an intermediary step, I'm looking to at least centralise the content locally.

Other useful links for this project:-

Re:Or

[The Wing Lover]

When we want something, we usually exchange something called "money" for what we want.

Homer: [disappointed] Oh, twenty dollars...I wanted a peanut!
Brain: Twenty dollars can buy many peanuts!
Homer: Explain how.
Brain: Money can be exchanged for good and services.

Re:Or

[Mitchell Mebane]

Shipping at Newegg is free on most items.

Re:Or

[dioscaido]

You should read the forums again! :) Just check out the Hindsdale how-to, for example, they now provide a new LBA-enabled boot CD with the mfs tools.

This thread talks about upgrading w/ a single 200GB drive: http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.ph p?s=ffe209f1d2484d578698d7b7c7b038c7&threadid=1934 39

Re:Or

[glesga_kiss]

whatever algorithm Tivo uses to compress the video stream, it has some problems with water, especially at the lower quality settings... Often I could see rectangular divisions in the surface of the pool

Compression works by only storing the changes between frames. Water never compresses well as it is constantly changing.

Another thing to note about compressing live steams; it's only ever a one-pass encoding. When authoring a DVD (etc) from a high quality source, you usually do a two-pass, where the first pass is merely a dry run for the second pass, allowing it to optimize which parts of the video get the most bandwidth. In a one-pass, by the time it's worked that out, you've moved onto the next frame.

Re:Or

[Anonymous Coward]

And because Tivo isn't available for 95% of the world's population.

So, MythTV isn't available for 95% of the world's population.

I'll assume you want to say that TiVo doesn't work in places where MythTV will, but it's not like MythTV works in the mountains of Tibet.

Re:Or

[Gondola]

I was wondering when someone was going to bring up HDTV. I've got a 65" HDTV, and I can't stand watching pixellated SD (standard definition, as opposed to HD - high definition) anymore.

I've got Time Warner cable in Fayetteville, NC, and I recently upgraded to their HD PVR. It's been working pretty darn well, except for one show that was cut 10 minutes short. I recorded all of the Olympics, in HD, and every segment turned out beautifully, with only slight and infrequent artifacts on the water activities. I am very satisfied with my new PVR.

Also, my new PVR has dual tuners. I can record two shows and watch a third, theoretically, but I did get some slight pauses one time while watching what I was recording on HD - which most of the time I wouldn't do anyway.

HD is a big deal, and for a lot of home theater people, is a crucial component in their PVR/DVR wish list.

Re:Or

[That's Unpossible!]

The parent poster may be a lamer that paid a lifetime subscription, but the proper way is some not-so-easy-to-google perl scripts, that scrape guide data off of tvguide.com and format it for the Tivo.

Allow me to provide a legend for the above paragraph.

Lamer == Guy supporting a company that made a great product.

Proper way == Cheapskate's route.

Re:Or

[That's Unpossible!]

I'm so sick of this TiVo vs Homebuilt debate.

If you: want something that looks good, requires no installation headaches, has a great user interface, then buy a TiVo and get the lifetime subscription.

If you: want to build your own custom box that does whatever you want but requires a complex installation and looks like shit, go with a homebrew.

Re:Or

[mercuryresearch]

Let me preface this with the fact that I'm a diehard slackware fan. If I used the Knoppix-based myth distro this all would have been close to plug and play.

My first attempt didn't go well. Unfortunately MythTV has a lot of dependencies and was a tweaking nightmare as it took a couple days of off-and-on effort for me to get to the point where I could just compile. Then work got busier and I set the project aside.

I finally ended up using the excellent walkthrough located here. I still ended up with some tweaking, but that was primarily the result of some bad permissions on a shared MySQL file.

The other thing I did that was a bit unusual is that I have a 4DTV analog and digital C-Band satellite receiver. I wrote a small python script that translates DirectTV program codes to tune the same channel on C-band, so the on-screen guide works (4DTV is yet to be supported by the OSG data supplier, hence this workaround.)

Anyway, it's been solid once I got it up and running. My next project is to attach the 7" touchscreen LCD display I got to use as a remote control head (mostly for the stereo so I don't have to fire up the plasma TV in another room just to listen to music.)

As far as how it compares to Tivo -- all my friends that have visited and seen the setup like the MythTV a lot better, especially the music and weather options. The main downside is that the best output on the PVR-350 is s-video, so you're not really driving the display at HDTV quality.

Re:Or

[oliphaunt]

Compression works by only storing the changes between frames. Water never compresses well as it is constantly changing.

That much makes sense... I guess I was just surprised by how evident the artifacts were. It was almost like someone had applied a checkerboard filter to the video output, becuase you could clearly see the edges between different tiles, especially on the surface of the water.

as an aside, I'm sure that the artifacts would be less apparent if I recorded at a higher quality setting... but then i only get to put 11 hrs of TV on the 40gig disk, which kinda defeats the whole purpose. Yes, I'm probably going to stuff a spare 120-gig drive in the Tivo, thus voiding my warranty and increasing my storage by 3X, but I think it's kind of misleading to advertize it as a 40 hour box when the minimum acceptable quality contstrains you to only 25 hours of time.

Re:Or

[geckofiend]

If you: want to build your own custom box that does whatever you want but requires a complex installation and looks like shit, go with a homebrew.

Odd, my Myth box looks a lot better than my Tivo, both in it's UI and the box itself. Take a little time to research the various PVR packages, most of them offer themable UIs that look a LOT better than a Tivo.

As for a complex installation... I guess inserting a CD into a drive could be considered complex for some.

Re:Or

[NoMoreNicksLeft]

Haha. If I had a ReplayTV, then maybe your argument would carry some weight. Those are the guys that fight all the worthy causes, even winning a few. Tivo? All the series 2 bullshit, the obstacles they threw at people to disable the bash prompt... sorry. I buy hardware. If they sell it under cost, well, that's just dumb....

But I do credit them with kickass hardware. I'd buy one even if they did price them at profit... but services are for fools.

Re:Or

[enthused i swear]

Hi, I was wondering where you got the VIA miniITX board? I have been looking for something exactly along those lines, but have had little luck. (I have'nt had time to look extremely hard, but I have been able to find them with normal searching.)

Thanks.

Re:Or

[Mark Hood]

I 'saved' the TiVo monthly fee by paying for a lifetime subscription.

Sure, that meant I'd bought a £400 VCR instead of the £200 one advertised, but I was willing to pay the extra for the functionality.

And after just 20 months (under 2 years!) it started to save me money....

If TiVos are now $99 in the US, how much is a lifetime sub? And is the UI on a MythTV box that much better? I'm willing to pay for the stuff TiVo does that (as far as I know) no other DVR does...

Mark

Re:Or

[Anonymous Coward]

You can buy a TiVo for $99 IF you live in the US (or perhaps the UK). The rest of us can only get PVRs by building them or subscribing to an HDTV satellite service that bundles the function into their reciever. I was one of the first in line to sign up for ReplayTV when it first came out, only to be told that "Service to Canada will not be offered initially". Years have passed and I'm tired of waiting.

Re:Or

[g8rg33k]

What distro are you using? I am having a hard time getting my box going.

or just get a TiVo

[Mike Bridge]

or buy a TiVo (40 hour unit, see www.tivocommunity.com for how to add additional IDE hard drives for more space) for $99 (after $100 rebate), then tack on $299 for a lifetime service agreement (or $12.95/month if you don't think you'll keep it that long - $6.95/month for each additional box in your house), and you're how many $$'s ahead, with how much extra time from not building your own system??

Re:or just get a TiVo

[ndoss]

Your comment is true if all you want is a tivo box.

I use mine as a file server (samba/nfs) and firewall/content filter. I'm also able to watch any tv shows I've recorded from any of the other desktops in my house and anywhere in my house/yard from my laptop. My box also has two capture cards and can tune 2 shows at once from cable tv.

You can hack your tivo to do some of the things mentioned above, but then you have to buy more hardware, void your warranty, spend some time, etc.

Re:or just get a TiVo

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm from the school that thinks a firewall box should be just a firewall box.

Re:or just get a TiVo

[enrico_suave]

" and you're how many $$'s ahead, with how much extra time from not building your own system??"

yeah, but as a regular /. reader all that free time we'd normally have filled up with things like "dating" and "outside" needs to be taken up with something.

Might as well be Doom3 and building HTPCs, eh?

E.

Re:or just get a TiVo

[Anonymous Coward]

Another important thing to notice is that Myth is not to be considered stable. I had a Myth box that I built on top on Fedora Core 1.

It was ok to watch recorded shows on, but the quality was not as good as on a tivo. I used a Hauppauge PVR250 as my tuner and a Geforce FX400 with TV out as my TV connection, and the quality was nowhere near what the Tivo gets me. Not to mention it really sucks to come home after a few days away only to find that Myth had crashed.

Watching live tv pretty much sucked too, compared to tivo.

Also consider using Myth with a digital cable tuner or satellite tuner. Guaranteed not a simple task, just getting a IR blaster is hard, not to mention getting it to work with Myth.

I tried to play a DVD, and it worked somewhat OK. However suddenly the remote didn't work anymore, and I had to use the PC's keyboard to be able to stop the movie and get back to Myth (alt-tab)

I tried uploading MP3s to the Myth box since it has a player. Bad idea...the player crashed when trying to play them.

In the end, I took my 160G hard drive and 512M memory and stuck in my PC instead. I bought a 80G hard drive for $50 at Circuit City and stuck it in the Series1 Tivo I got on eBay for $50. Voila, I had what I needed. It just works, and records the shows I need. And it is much cheaper than a PC, while it does less it does about as much as what actually works in Myth.

The only thing I could wish was that the Tivo guys took a look at the Myth UI. The way they let you sort the recordings by show is excellent, while the Tivo list of recordings is a bit primitive.

Re:or just get a TiVo

[irving47]

The point is it can do a lot of cool unix-ish things that would bring the TiVo's processor to its knees. Assuming you could do them at all... TyStudio is bad enough. (It's OK, but it noticeably slows the TiVo interface down.)

Re:or just get a TiVo

[Anonymous Coward]

Perhaps you had all of these problems because you're incompetent, and you're not considered stable.

Only 15 minutes to put hardware together?

[Jeff DeMaagd]

Sheesh, it seems to take me at least fifteen minutes to get everything out of the boxes! Then I spend another fifteen putting the case together, a few more mounting the motherboard, more if I drop a screw and it gets caught in some cranny somewhere. I suppose these guys have done it alot, but that seems to be pushing it.

Re:Only 15 minutes to put hardware together?

[Anonymous Coward]

My 55 year old dad takes about half an hour to build a PC, and that is with a smoke break.

We have a little father and son OEM going.

Re:Only 15 minutes to put hardware together?

[jjeffries]

You also forgot the 20 or so minutes spent cleaning up all the blood that the case edges drew from your tender fingers...

Re:Only 15 minutes to put hardware together?

[darkmeridian]

An installing Windows XP. And installing SP2. And then installing the drivers. And then installing the software. And then running virus and spybot scans.

Re:Only 15 minutes to put hardware together?

[sharkey]

Try it the Gateway Way: Throw everything together inside the case and splash some of that rubber-based non-conducting cement in there to keep it from sliding. Bolt on the cover and send it down the line.

Re:Only 15 minutes to put hardware together?

[strider44]

what has installing windows XP and SP2 got to do with MythTV on a linux box?

Re:Only 15 minutes to put hardware together?

[PedanticSpellingTrol]

And that's why I only buy Antec.

Re:Only 15 minutes to put hardware together?

[chasec]

Depends on how many you put together. I work at a small computer shop and we build maybe 2 systems a day. Our fastest guy can go from boxes to powering the system on in 15 minutes. I can do it in 20-25 if I don't get distracted. Those are all retail parts, so there's plenty to be unpacked, but do it every day and you'll get very fast.

80GB?

[ElPresPufferfish]

80GB seems pretty weak when my normal recordings are 1GB/30min. I'm building a mythtv backend right now, and I'm looking for at least 1TB of space.

Re:80GB?

[Jeff DeMaagd]

I think you can probably pre-filter the video (assuming the system can be set to do that) and encode it at a lower bitrate. It isn't as if cable or antenna feeds are worthy of DVD bitrates.

Re:80GB?

[tokachu(k)]

I built a TiVo-clone on a budget with a "mere" 80 GB hard drive, and I've yet to fill it up. I've used that thing more than I've ever used a VCR, and my strange work hours have resulted in hundreds of tapes lying around. When I finish watching a show, I either burn it to DVD or just delete it.

Even with your recording habits, you've still got 40 hours, or all of Family Guy with room to spare. If you need more space, do what I do and invest in a DVD burner and a decorative cabinet.

Re:80GB?

[Anonymous Coward]

It isn't as if cable or antenna feeds are worthy of DVD bitrates.

If your antenna reception is poor, you need to use higher bitrates. All of that fuzz is going to compete with the actual show for bits, so you need to provide more.

When the signal is nice and clean, you can lower the bitrate.

Re:80GB?

[hawkeyeMI]

The PVR-250 dumps straight MPEG2 so you're kind of limited there. It can be postprocessed later but coming off of the card it's already an MPEG2. Just cat /dev/video0 > some_show.mpg. It kind of sucks because you can't have it auto-splice the commercials out, though it does skip them automatically when watching on MythTV.

Re:80GB?

[LoudMusic]

80GB seems pretty weak when my normal recordings are 1GB/30min. I'm building a mythtv backend right now, and I'm looking for at least 1TB of space.

Wow! Look at that stream of piss go! But mine will have TWO TERABYTES!

Seriously dude.

Ok lets do the breakdown. 1GB / 30 Min is roughly 40 hours of recorded television on an 80GB drive. Lets call it 38 so we don't have an issue about that.

38 hours. How much programing in a week do you wish to record? All the Star Trek together is only 15 hours in a week. Throw in another 5 hours of random anime, 4 hours of Tech TV, 6 hours of Discovery, 2 hours of sitcoms ... that's only 32 hours. Got another 6 you can dig up?

And 1GB / 30 Min? What the crap!? This is television we're talking about.

But if you're using it for "DVD Archival", I understand. My plan is to wait for 500GB SATA drives to hit the market and be less than $1/1GB. Then fill my ten drive tower with them and start borrowing DVDs from my friends' collections.

Re:80GB?

[Anonymous Coward]

My normal recordings are 1hr/GB, and that is MPEG4 at full PAL resolution

Re:80GB?

[lachlan76]

that's only 32 hours. Got another 6 you can dig up?

Yes. Last week's recordings.

Re:80GB?

[osgeek]

While I know that the thought of a wife is foreign to most on /. :), some of us have entire families that want to make use of the PVR. Add to that the fact that I have to work long hours so only get to marathon through recorded stuff every other weekend or so -- and 40 hours just isn't enough.

Sempron?

[ciroknight]

Hell, why does the machine need such a fast processor? Does it automatically re-encode on the fly? And if not, why not just throw a cheaper Athlon XP in it and call it a day, cutting a good hundred bucks off the price.

Re:Sempron?

[Wehesheit]

The sempron is just a fancy new duron with a new name. It's cheap as hell already and not really a powerhouse processor.

Re:Sempron?

[ndoss]

The pvr-250 encodes the video to mpeg2 on the fly and uses very little processing power (less than 5% cpu per pvr-250 on my machine).

Mythtv can re-encode the mpeg2 files into other formats in the background once a recording has completed. Mythtv nices the re-encoding processes down so they don't impact much of anything else on the box.

I have a 700MHz duron w/ 2 pvr-250's and have no trouble at all recording two programs at a time while re-encoding in the background.

Re:Sempron?

[ciroknight]

understood, but it's based on the newer athlon cores with less cache, whereas the athlon xp.. well you get the picture. the question is why use a sempron-based system, when an athlon xp system can still be built cheaper?

Just For Comparison

[MBCook]

I messed around with MythTV about a year ago. From what I could tell it was nice, but it wasn't usable for me (my computer was WAY underpowered for video encoding, which I knew going in). That said I've since gotten a DirecTiVo and I LOVE it.

So just for comparison, a low end brand new TiVo is $99 after rebates. A lifetime service contract is $299. The total is there for about $400. That's still about $250 under what the box in the article is. For that extra money you could get a 140 hour TiVo and still have $50 to spend on something else.

Or, if you have DirecTV, you can buy a DirecTiVo for about $100 and monthly service is $5 on top of your DirecTV bill. So that $650 will buy you the lowest end DirecTiVo and 110 months of service (about 9 years). DirecTiVos are wonderful machies, and can record two things at once, and it's all pure digital. I don't know the prices, but for $650 you could probably get a HD-DirecTiVo and a few months of HD/TiVo at least.

All that said, check out MythTV. If you already have parts on hand, it would be cheaper. It's a fun little project that can do tons of stuff, and there is no DRM (always a /. favorite). It was facinating watching the development list when I did. At that time they were discussing (and testing) ways of automaticaly skipping commercials, and it was very interesting to read. They talked about blank frame detecting (but you have to be careful so you don't miss a Simpsons's "eyeball" scene), using time (commercials come at fairly regular intervals), "bug" detection (the logo in the corner), etc.

MythTV can also show you weather, they were working on DVD and video playing as I remember, and MP3 playback. Plus you can have different frontend and backend boxes which would allow for very cool things.

All that said, if you just want a DVR, a TiVo is probably better. If you want your own Home Theater PC that can do all sorts of stuff and you want to be able to extend it yourself, check out MythTV.

Re:Just For Comparison

[Anonymous Coward]

yea but with a htpc... you can do more than tv....dvd's, dvd, son your hard drive, radio, internet radio, pictures, mame...lots of things

and chicks dig them as well!!

Re:Just For Comparison

[Twirlip of the Mists]

Your basic point is 100% right on, but an HD TiVo is still about $1,000.

Re:Just For Comparison

[MBCook]

After posting I checked on the DirecTV site to see if I could find the price. I could barely find the page, so I figured that might be true.

But, if you've got the money for a HDTV and want a PVR and could afford the $650 to build one, there is a decent chance that you can afford a HD TiVo instead.

Re:Just For Comparison

[Twirlip of the Mists]

Sure, absolutely. Spending $650 on a build-it-yourself product that's inferior to products that cost half as much is absurd. Anybody with that kind of money to waste probably has a little more to invest in something good.

Re:Just For Comparison

[Anonymous Coward]

The monthly service fee for TiVo is waived if you have the premium DirecTV programming package, in which case $100 for the unit, and $0 for service, ever.

Re:Just For Comparison

[PhotoGuy]

So just for comparison, a low end brand new TiVo is $99 after rebates. A lifetime service contract is $299. The total is there for about $400. That's still about $250 under what the box in the article is. For that extra money you could get a 140 hour TiVo and still have $50 to spend on something else.

Extended warranty?!?! How can I lose!?!?!?

[Quoted from the final phase of Homer's redumbening. Wait, is redumbening a word?]

Do people on here actually buy those? I thought it was pretty much common knowledge that these things are just gravy for the companies, and extra commissions for sales clerks. Especially these days, when something new and better will be available at 1/4 the price in a year or two.

Re:Just For Comparison

[PhotoGuy]

D'oh... By "Service contract" I now assume this isn't a warrantee, but the Tivo listing/etc. service. Oh well, I tried... Please disregard above post :$

Re:Just For Comparison

[osgeek]

The jackasses at CompUSA pratically argue with you to get you to buy one. If that doesn't tell you how much they're benefitting from the damned things, I don't know what else would.

The one situation where I'd consider buying one would be for an LCD-based component, where they flake out so easily, it's worth it to be able to point to a few bad pixels and just get a new one.

Re:Just For Comparison

[Pedrito]

I just got a DirectTiVo a couple of weeks ago, and I love, but I'm still building my MythTV box in the next couple of months.

But as additional information, I got the TiVo receiver and a regular satellite receiver for $89.99. But this included a 1 year DirecTV contract (new service), so you can get it cheaper if you're a new customer.

MythTV has a few other advantages that I think make it a much better choice. For one, you can watch stuff you've downloaded. For another, you can save stuff you've recorded onto CD or DVD for later viewing.

The inability to save things on another media is a real minus for the TiVo, in my book.

And of course, the big advantage of MythTV, if you're a programmer, is you can hack it. I have some very definite ideas about things I would like to see in a PVR and MythTV gives me the option to do that myself.

Re:Just For Comparison

[geckofiend]

You're missing the point. It's Tivo that inferior not the Myth boxes. PVR functionality is just one part of what a Myth box does.

Re:Just For Comparison

[Twirlip of the Mists]

Heh. It doesn't really matter what this Myth thing does in addition to being a PVR. The point is that it's a lousy PVR. The fact that it's a lousy PVR and other stuff is hardly compelling.

TiVo = A linux distro

[KB1GHC]

TiVo is actually Linux based. So this isn't the First Linux DVR.

you can get TiVo source code at:
http://tivo.com/linux/linux.asp

Re:TiVo = A linux distro

[Jeff DeMaagd]

You don't get all the TiVo code, do you? I remember reading that the file system is a proprietary module, and they do anything they can to put things in user space to avoid having to GPL that code.

Broadcast flag coming up...

[stinkfoot]

if you're interested in building your own PVR, you should take a look at EFF's broadcast flag page:

http://www.eff.org/broadcastflag/

in less than a year, it will no longer be possible to buy a PC/HDTV decoder that is free of broadcast flag restrictions.

something to think about...

Re:Broadcast flag coming up...

[Anonymous Coward]

It's the responsibility of the driver and software to enforce the broadcast flag, not the hardware. There are open source Linux drivers for many DVB cards, so even if the hardware supports the flag, open source drivers are clearly not going to enforce it. Vendors that fail to provide specs or open source drivers will simply have their products reverse engineered anyway. This has happened with many current video encoders (look at the Hauppage PVR-350 series and other DVB devices) and there is virtually nothing the manufacturers can do to stop it.

Re:Broadcast flag coming up...

[Anonymous Coward]

Sure..

and because DVDs are encrypted that means I cannot copy them..

Get this straight: There is a way around EVERYTHING.

EVERY fucking THING.

Re:Broadcast flag coming up...

[sploo22]

Two words: Trusted Computing. When the government mandates that broadcast flag restrictions must be followed, the only way to enforce it will be to validate all drivers before they're loaded. It'll be almost exactly the situation we have with the Xbox. It's simply the only way to sell hardware that complies with the law.

Re:Broadcast flag coming up...

[Anonymous Coward]

It's been stated over and over that trusted computing can be turned off by the operating system and is not forced on anyone. Granted, with trusted computing features turned off, the OS may not be able to play certain encrypted media, but the broadcast flag is not an encryption system itself. People running Linux etc. will load whatever drivers they want and the video capture hardware will not know the difference.

If hardware vendors start tying the hardware to 'trusted' OS's only, the protocols will be reverse engineered and open source drivers will be written. Remember, the broadcast flag is not encryption, so there is no way for broadcasters to encrypt programs specific to each DVB receiver card's private keys, and hence no way to propagate that chain of trust up through the driver and OS. This is very different than downloaded content being locked to a specific CPU by private keys stored in hardware.

In short: the broadcast flag will be ignored by open source software and by design no amount of trusted computing hardware will be able to prevent this.

Re:Broadcast flag coming up...

[cvd6262]

Also, don't forget that a Linux-based HAM radio group has already figured out how to record the HDTV broadcast signal. So, instead of recording the video after it has come through the receiver, it just records the signal to a hard drive. When it comes time to play the video back, the computer "broadcasts" the signal back to the TV. The broadcast flag is still there, and the TV obeys all restrictions associated with it.

And this is why Linux is not mainstream

[spoco2]

This article shows why linux is not mainstream yet:
"We can attempt to load the card right now using the commands below:

# modprobe i2c-core
# modprobe i2c-algo-bit
# modprobe tuner type=2
# modprobe msp3400
# modprobe videodev
# modprobe saa7115
# modprobe ivtv"

And
"dmesg also reports success:

# dmesg | tail
[] sys_init_module+0xeb/0x1e0
[] sysenter_past_esp+0x52/0x79

ivtv: No mem on buf alloc!
ivtv: Buffer alloc failed!
ivtv: Registered v4l2 device, minor 0
ivtv: Registered v4l2 device, minor 32
ivtv: Registered v4l2 device, minor 224
ivtv: Registered v4l2 device, minor 24
ivtv: loaded "

Uh huh

"# cat /dev/video0 > /tmp/test.mpg" Of course, I should know that's how you record video...

And finally:
"And finally, after several hours of turmoil and despair, we have installed and tested our Linux device. Its far from perfect - we cannot readily work with digital TV broadcasts, for example."

It's for exactly these reasons that people use Windows and Macs... this sort of thing is far above the average Joe's understanding I'm afraid, and it really shouldn't be stuff they have to know as it's not user friendly, confusing and assumes far too much prior knowledge.

Re:And this is why Linux is not mainstream

[Jeffrey Baker]

Linux and operating systems like Linux make the trivial and the impossible equally possible. For example, good luck using a Mac to record a digital HDTV broadcast to Xvid with a mu-law soundtrack and subtitles in Farsi, storing it to a network file server attached via IP-over-1394. On Linux this will be a huge pain in the ass, just like everything else, but at least you can do it. For the people who think a Linux box makes a shitty PVR, I respond that a Tivo makes a terrible DVD player and a really bad Unreal Tournament server.

Re:And this is why Linux is not mainstream

[pyrrhonist]

this sort of thing is far above the average Joe's understanding I'm afraid, and it really shouldn't be stuff they have to know as it's not user friendly, confusing and assumes far too much prior knowledge.

Yeah, I know what you mean. I had all these issues with my Linux-based TiVo. It's so hard for the average Joe like me to understand, and it's not user friendly at all. Apparently you need to have prior knowledge of things like "TV", "Cable", "Schedules", and "Shows."

Where does it end?

Re:And this is why Linux is not mainstream

[Anonymous Coward]

Unfortunately, your attitude is precisely why things don't improve.

People who know better figure "hey, it works fine for me, you lamers should learn more."

People who don't know better go out and buy macs or windows boxes, and never bother learning, 'cuz they already know they sure as hell ain't going to learn shit from people like you. They don't even like people like you.

To read an attitude like yours is depressing, because while you could be doing so much more, you're simply prancing about on your high horse, thumbing your nose at the peons. It's not productive.

I'll shut up now.

Re:And this is why Linux is not mainstream

[NMerriam]

For example, good luck using a Mac to record a digital HDTV broadcast to Xvid with a mu-law soundtrack and subtitles in Farsi, storing it to a network file server attached via IP-over-1394.

Good luck? It would be easier to do on a mac than a Linux box. Anything you can't find a native OS X app for, you can usually grab the unix tools and install to fill in the gaps. And you never have to recompile the kernel to get your hardware to work.

Re:And this is why Linux is not mainstream

[Anonymous Coward]

Or perhaps there are a lot of us who doesn't really care that you can't figure out how to do it? What do you think should be done, should it be dumbed down so it becomes another windows where the impossible really is impossible?
I'll take it the way it is, please. ;)

Re:And this is why Linux is not mainstream

[PhoenixFlare]

Yeah, I know what you mean. I had all these issues with my Linux-based TiVo. It's so hard for the average Joe like me to understand, and it's not user friendly at all. Apparently you need to have prior knowledge of things like "TV", "Cable", "Schedules", and "Shows."

Seems like you're only proving his point further here.

If you're so sure, then how about a real example of how average-user-friendly it is to setup, instead of taking the cop-out of basically saying "It's easy for me, how could it possibly be hard for anyone else?"

Re:And this is why Linux is not mainstream

[h2odragon]

why should he be "productive"?

Just because you and i have found the True Path of computing in GNU, we are not obligated to lead others to it by reason, bribery, or fire and sword. Sometimes its tempting, true.

Re:And this is why Linux is not mainstream

[Anonymous Coward]

No doubt.

I recall there being an app over in Apple's developer section that can take a HD stream from 1394 and record it out. Not the most full featured app, but it includes the source code.

Add to that, I believe its mandated in the states that cable providers include 1394 on HD decoders for easier connectivity...I just remember folks screaming that the stream was coming in faster than their HD could handle it. Or something like that...

Re:And this is why Linux is not mainstream

[Anonymous Coward]

For example, good luck using a Mac to record a digital HDTV broadcast to Xvid with a mu-law soundtrack and subtitles in Farsi, storing it to a network file server attached via IP-over-1394.

Hmmm...This article seems to have nearly what you're asking for. And it's nearly six months old. As for storing it to a network file server attached via IP over Firewire, you don't think the company that invented Firewire knows how to make that work? Think again buddy. And I'll second what somebody else already said about yer 2-1337-4U attitude -- there's a reason why the computer dweeb is typically looked down upon in society...

Re:And this is why Linux is not mainstream

[base3]

Those who don't want to make the investment in time to learn can go buy a TiVo and live with DRM and forced upgrades. Those of us who do don't care about being "mainstream."

Re:And this is why Linux is not mainstream

[HermanAB]

So, roughly 1 billion Linux based cell phones are too hard to use by average Joes, or not mainstream? Come on, get real.

Re:And this is why Linux is not mainstream

[HarveyBirdman]

Those who don't want to make the investment in time...

Or prefer to put their time into investments with better returns like career, their home, relationships, learning skills outside the world of PCs, etc.

Those of us who do don't care about being "mainstream."

Oh, you're such a rebel! Kiss me, you fool!

Re:And this is why Linux is not mainstream

[pyrrhonist]

Seems like you're only proving his point further here.

Well, I suppose so, if you count merciless ridicule as honest user testimony.

If you're so sure, then how about a real example of how average-user-friendly it is to setup, instead of taking the cop-out of basically saying "It's easy for me, how could it possibly be hard for anyone else?"

Fine. How to set up a TiVo:

1. Take you TiVo out of the box.
2. Oh and ah, then pet TiVo affectionately.
3. Put batteries in remote.
4. Connect cable wire to TiVo.
5. Set the channel switch on TiVo to "3".
6. Connect one end of red/white/yellow wire to TiVo and other end to TV.
7. Connect one end of phone cord to TiVo and other end to phone jack.
8. Plug in TiVo, turn it on, and turn on the TV.
9. Set the TV channel to "3".
10. Follow the on-screen instructions.
11. Record stuff.
12. Watch recorded stuff.
13. Drink beer. Eat chips.

See? Easy. No, recompile of the kernel was necessary.

The point was that the TiVo is a simple to use device that is based on Linux, and is widely used by the unwashed masses. The parent concluded that Linux isn't ready for the mainstream by citing parts of an article about custom building a machine from scratch, while ignoring the counterexample of consumer-oriented products already using Linux.

Re:And this is why Linux is not mainstream

[base3]

OK, but no tongue.

Re:And this is why Linux is not mainstream

[HarveyBirdman]

Awwww... :-P

Re:And this is why Linux is not mainstream

[rjch]

"And finally, after several hours of turmoil and despair, we have installed and tested our Linux device. Its far from perfect - we cannot readily work with digital TV broadcasts, for example."

It's for exactly these reasons that people use Windows and Macs... this sort of thing is far above the average Joe's understanding I'm afraid, and it really shouldn't be stuff they have to know as it's not user friendly, confusing and assumes far too much prior knowledge.

However, as they pointed out in the article ("Opting for a different distribution that supports the PVR card natively would have been a better idea, but we have already gone this far...") they didn't pick the right distro. Had they chosen KnoppMyth, it would have worked damn near out of the box.

There are good reasons for having many distros. This is one of them.

Re:And this is why Linux is not mainstream

[PhoenixFlare]

The point was that the TiVo is a simple to use device that is based on Linux, and is widely used by the unwashed masses. The parent concluded that Linux isn't ready for the mainstream by citing parts of an article about custom building a machine from scratch, while ignoring the counterexample of consumer-oriented products already using Linux.

Well, my bad for not reading your comment a bit closer before posting. One would think though that on a story about custom buiding a Linux PVR system, you'd comment on, well, a custom-built Linux PVR system.

We all know TiVos are easy to use and based on Linux, but that's not the subject of this story or what the original poster was commenting on.

The fact remains that if you want to achieve what the story is concerned with, and build a custom solution, you have to go through a lot of needlessly complex configuration that should really be automated in some fashion by now.

Re:And this is why Linux is not mainstream

[Erik Hollensbe]

I'd rather have a system designed for experts when I need it, and a system that's easy to use when I need it, rather than an all in one system where I have to be an expert when it's easy and trick the system into letting me be an expert when I want to.

Different systems for different purposes. I don't use UNIX to play games, I use it to run servers and workstations.

The PVR idea is neat because it seems when it's setup it's done and you don't have to touch it anymore, unless you want to make additions or upgrade. This fits more of a "server" role for me.

Re:And this is why Linux is not mainstream

[/dev/trash]

Well you can write a front end to do all this and it becomes a moot point, eh?

Re:And this is why Linux is not mainstream

[Medgur]

Ok, I normally don't post, but this is just absurd.

This isn't an "off the shelf" set up like an easy to use Windows or Macintosh machine, and this certainly isn't a boot and use knoppix set up. This is a hack.

Comparing the ease of setting up a MythTV box to using a basic Macintosh or Windows install is beyond unreasonable, it's purely inane.

Of course, you could use KnoppMyth.

Re:And this is why Linux is not mainstream

[Dirk van der Broek]

Why is this insightful? It's the same thing I've heard since I began using linux about 7 years ago. No applications, arcane commands, blah blah blah. Who really cares if linux is mainstream or not? I know I surely don't. It does what I need it to do. I also use windows, for gaming and voice/video chat, while I don't like to use it for work (and I don't) it has it's place.

This type of comment should never be marked as insightful, it is redundant. Look at just about every comment list on /. and you will see a comment like this. Please get over it, if your too impatient to learn, or your just don't want to learn, then just use windows or a Mac or whatever you want, it's your choice. But please refrain from these types of comments, they really don't add anything to the discussion.

Re:And this is why Linux is not mainstream

[mikelieman]

RIGHT! Dead on. HOWEVER, this solution gives me something I don't have with Tivo. CONTROL.

I've got a new daughter, and she WON'T be getting direct access to media. She can pick something off the menu, thank you. And *I* will be putting things ON the menu... ( As opposed to surfing a sea of crap, intercut with commercials and promotions for more shows in the sea of crap... )

This DIY project, although more expensive than a pnp solution, gives you back control of the media.

Re:And this is why Linux is not mainstream

[Anonymous Coward]

uhhh.... you know that macs are unix now, right?

they're not some crazy place where you can't do anything. they're like linux, except with 80% less suck.

Re:And this is why Linux is not mainstream

[seanadams.com]

I've had similar difficulties in using the Linux-based "google". You're right, it's not for the masses yet.

Re:And this is why Linux is not mainstream

[Scooter]

All true; but then I don't think anybody (including the article's authors) expected the average Joe to do this.

Many devices (inlcuding the Tivo) run Linux and at some point, some guys who weren't average and may not have been called Joe, messed around with commands like that to get it working. Then they packed it all up so it all just worked when power was applied.

That's the thing - once it's working and fully debugged, you can distill it down to an ISO. Publish the exact hardware spec and then Joe Average can build his own with minimum fuss (assemble hardware, boot from CD and follow instructions).

There's a reasonable attemt at this for MythTV called KnoppMYTH:-
http://www.mysettopbox.tv/knoppmyth.html

It's called development. It's just the same in the Windows and Mac worlds. Mac and Windows software doesn't write itself either - some clever people are fiddling with comamnds and abstract notions that would look just as obscure to you as the Linux stuff you saw to make Windows Media Centre et al. The only real difference, is that in the open source world, these efforts are often there for all to see.

I have to admit that for me, part of the attraction is having some facility which you can't just buy in a shop, and that I only build things I can't buy for a reasonable amount of money, or that don't exist in a Sonyfied form in Dixons.

In this increasingly sanitised and ordered world, I take comfort from the fact that not quite everything I see is meant for the average guy and does not come with a manual. Maybe it's the british male shed mentality given 21st century form !

Re:And this is why Linux is not mainstream

[Anonymous Coward]

So help me write a better UI for it!

Re:And this is why Linux is not mainstream

[drewzhrodague]

Also, figuring out the i2c stuff, and which driver to use really sucks, and there is little documentation. Of course, we all try to do these things with obscure hardware, and it's impossible for any documentation to cover the hodge-podge plethora of equipment that people (like me) have. I hate ATI and all of their products. I have never seen one work properly.

Re:And this is why Linux is not mainstream

[NSParadox]

ACK!

I need a land-based phone line for Tivo? Only use cell nowadays. Wouldn't want to have to pay $10-$20/month on top of the $300 lifetime service.

MythTV is looking cheaper and cheaper.

Re:And this is why Linux is not mainstream

[xsecrets]

Well as the article mentions it would have been easier to do with a distrobution that is designed for the purpose, and guess what one does exist its called knoppmyth, and can be found at http://www.mysettopbox.tv/.

With Knoppmyth and supported hardware it is quite possible to setup a mythtv system in about one half hour and not have to worry about all the configuration mentioned in the origional post.

Re:And this is why Linux is not mainstream

[pyrrhonist]

One would think though that on a story about custom buiding a Linux PVR system, you'd comment on, well, a custom-built Linux PVR system. We all know TiVos are easy to use and based on Linux, but that's not the subject of this story or what the original poster was commenting on.

The original poster wasn't on topic either: "This article shows why linux is not mainstream yet". I disagreed with that assessment, and stayed more on topic by pointing out that one mainstream use of Linux is the TiVo.

The fact remains that if you want to achieve what the story is concerned with, and build a custom solution, you have to go through a lot of needlessly complex configuration that should really be automated in some fashion by now.

There actually are automated solutions (KnoppMyth, MiniMyth, Gentoo). However, the article chose not to use them for various reasons (they used Suse, for instance). They authors even say, "opting for a different distribution that supports the PVR card natively would have been a better idea". They also tried to match the hardware as closely as they could to the hardware used in the off the shelf Windows Media Center machine. In other words, they placed constraints upon themselves that made the installation a lot more difficult than it would have been if they did not have these constraints.

Re:And this is why Linux is not mainstream

[spoco2]

I would say it's been marked insightful because there a lot of people sick to death of the bazillion (oh yeah, that's a number) articles and comments on Slashdot about how 'this year' is the year of Linux... how everone should switch to Linux, how Linux just pisses all over Windows...

I know Linux has it's place, I love that there's a free alternative to Microsoft (heck I've just installed Fedora on two boxes... which is kinda why I made the comment as man, some of the simple things just aren't simple), but Linux just isn't there yet.

I want it to be, I'd love it to be... but at some stage you're ALWAYS forced to revert to damn command lines, editing config files, downloading non-standard drivers etc. etc. It's just painful.

That's why it got marked the way it is, because there needs to be the reminder that Linux is not as easy to use as people are trying to suggest it's become.

Re:And this is why Linux is not mainstream

[SmittyTheBold]

If you get a supported USB NIC for it, you can have the TiVo do all required communication through your home's Internet connection.

Re:And this is why Linux is not mainstream

[SmittyTheBold]

Steps 5 and 9 are not required if you're using the composite or S-Video connections, as you alluded to in step 6.

Re:And this is why Linux is not mainstream

[evilviper]

And you never have to recompile the kernel to get your hardware to work.

Funny phrasing...

What you mean is "you can't recompile the kernel to get your hardware to work"... In Linux, you have to do some work to get strange hardware working, rather than Mac, where you just have no options, and can't get it working at all.

Anything you can't find a native OS X app for, you can usually grab the unix tools and install to fill in the gaps.

And struggling to get Unix tools to work on OS X is yet another bit of work you wouldn't have to do on Linux/BSD.

Re:And this is why Linux is not mainstream

[evilviper]

this sort of thing is far above the average Joe's understanding I'm afraid, and it really shouldn't be stuff they have to know as it's not user friendly, confusing and assumes far too much prior knowledge.

Installing a TV-tuner card, period, is far above the average Joe's understanding. Even on Windows, the process is very dicy, and I wouldn't wish it on anyone.

On Windows, you can put in the card, install the drivers, install the specific playback software, etc., and your card will still just not output a picture... No reason why, it just won't. Sometimes, on a perfectly fresh system, where nothing but a servicepack has been installed, and under a full-moon, with microsoft keyboards and mice, it might work, but even then, it's less than 50/50.

I've had numerous caputer cards... I had an ATI TV Wonder, who's drivers completely hosed a Win98 install. It worked on NT4, but no-go on even the basics. The guide software, the recording software, pretty much every bit of software except for the plain vanilla viewer, would crash, and require a reboot to even get TV-viewing working again. What's worse, I had the same problem with the CD software, and the latest downloaded software.

Nearly the same story for my All-in-Wonder 8500DV on Windows 2000. Tried old/new software, but the drivers would just not let me watch anything. Software liked to crash often, etc.

My no-name TV card worked a bit better, but no-go on channel-changing.

After hours of uninstalling/reinstalling/upgrading/etc, these cards did not work on Windows. In 30 minutes, I read through the BTTV docs and knew how the v4l modules worked. 5 minutes later, I was recording perfect video from my no-name card on Linux... A few minutes later, my TV-Wonder was working, too.

Took maybe 10 more minutes, but I read Gatos docs, and got my 8500DV working. Took a bit longer to get recording working, since they do non-standard stuff, and all the typical v4l programs won't work with it. In that respect, it's a simple matter of propritary hardware with poor software, and closed docs so nobody else can improve the situation.

And this harrowing experience is all only a matter of getting the first piece of the puzzle together... The remote control was an even crazier experience, and good luck to anyone trying to get their Windows machine to record from a digital cable/satellite tuner...

another source

[ralphus]

for those who are Fedora inclined, a buddy of mine, wrote a great article on this a long time ago for redhat 8 I think and spends a good amount of time keeping it up to date.

http://wilsonet.com/mythtv/

Re:another source

[Alizarin Erythrosin]

I also would like to pimp that link. I was using a guide that used Gentoo instead of FC1. It took me about a week off and on before I finally gave up on the Gentoo OS install (I didn't even get close to it booting).

I installed FC1 and set up Myth using that guide in an afternoon. It's an excellent article.

Re:another source

[osgeek]

I just took a quick look at the link, and it's quite excellent. Jarod Wilson has done an excellent job putting all of that information together.

Another viewpoint

[Anonymous Coward]

Sure, the $635 price is well over a Tivo box + service, but consider this - if you build your own, you are free from the MPAA deciding that they don't like Tivo, suing the company and driving it out of business. Or Tivo deciding to "upgrade" your firmware and removing features you like.

bleh

[einer]

Or buy a tivo for 200.

So why is this MythTv box worth 400 more? Is this what "free" costs? Granted, I wouldn't consider the Microsoft offering either. Unless you consider a 100 dollar xbox running XBMC or gentoox a Microsoft product. But then, you get no video encoding and less than stellar video playback.

Whatever. It's cool having a multi function device, but sometimes paying (in this case, less) for specialization is good.

Re:bleh

[Gannoc]

So why is this MythTv box worth 400 more? Is this what "free" costs?

Oh no sir, you're forgetting about Tivo's $13/month charge. So, in approximately 30 months of use, the Tivo will actually cost MORE.

Of course, by that time, you would have died of loneliness since you wouldn't have had time to make any friends since you were spending so much time setting up Myth TV.

Re:bleh

[flamdrag]

Lifetime TiVO service is $299. If you purchase that it will never cost more.

Re:bleh

[Joe Tie.]

So why is this MythTv box worth 400 more?

Commercial skipping and being able to back shows up to cd/dvd/pc without resorting to hacks. Both together I'd consider well worth the extra money. I already have one of the older replaytv models which allows both, but if that wasn't available I would have put one of these together.

Re:bleh

[enrico_suave]

" Lifetime TiVO service is $299. If you purchase that it will never cost more."

ah.. but that is lifetime of the UNIT (not your lifetime)... if it breaks after the first year, you woulda been better off doing $13/month.

What about the folks in Canada, eh? TiVo doesn't accept dad's beer money there... (translation: they don't provide listing service/support for Canada)... although there are some clever folks in the tivocanda forums that figured out some clever ways to load tivo guide data slices =)

They won't let Yanks into their forum though...

e.

Re:bleh

[Anonymous Coward]

Tivo cost $299 for lifetime subscription or $12.95 monthly fee so that pretty much negates any cost advantage. Plus with MythTV you can do a hell of a lot more than just record TV. Its not for everyone but it can do a lot more than a glorified vcr. Plus with Tivo there is no guarantee they won't go under or be bought out and have fees raised. Plus there are the networks who don't even like tivo and do things like start show early or late just to screw with you. Paying $299 to Tivo is a pretty risky investment IMHO.

Re:bleh

[The Vulture]

Heck yes!

I paid more than the $600 for my MythTV machine, but then again, I went pretty high end (dual PVR-250's, Athlon XP 2400+, fancy Antec Sonata case, etc.). It has more than paid for itself, in the ability to:
1. Skip commercials without hacking it.
2. Play my DVDs (my other DVD player is an XBox)
3. I can use a universal remote, so that I only have one remote - mind you, I think that even TiVo has some sort of universal remote control now
4. I can play games in MAME while recording TV shows
5. Weather forecasts
6. MP3 playback
7. And more...

My only concern is when my PVR-250 cards will be obsoleted due to mandatory HDTV broadcasts, and/or encryption.

-- Joe

Re:bleh

[flamdrag]

Your point is moot.

From TiVO's web site:

The subscription remains in effect if your DVR needs to be repaired or replaced due to a malfunction (see manufacturer warranty details). Because a product lifetime subscription is linked to a particular DVR, it cannot be transferred to any other DVR (unless the DVR is replaced due to a malfunction covered by the manufacturer's warranty).

Re:bleh

[enrico_suave]

nuh-uh =P

read what you pasted carefully (especially the parentheticals). read what I posted, again... if your unit breaks out of warranty you're hosed.

e.

Re:bleh

[geckofiend]

If all you want to do is record TV then yes buy a Tivo. PVR functionality in Myth is one small piece of the larger puzzle. You can't really compare Mtyh and Tivo, it's like comparing Doom3 and pong. Yeah they're both games, but one has a LOT more to offer.

Fair enough...

[IANAAC]

If you'd said "Linux PVR" (and that's discounting Tivo).

While you're at it, you might as well mention that a Windows PVR isn't mainstream either.

And then mention that there is nothing comparable running on a Mac.

Face it, a PVR using any standard, unmodified OS is not mainstream. Anywhere.

Re:Fair enough...

[ChrisMaple]

Matrox Marvel G200 on Win98, now in its sixth year.

another downside to TiVo

[enrico_suave]

Soon TiVo users will be able to share DRM'd dongle enabled shows because the FCC said they could (despite the NFL and MPAA's best efforts)

Me I just edit out some commercials, burn a DVD, and go! Now only if there was something worth archiving =(

I can play MAME, pull up local movie schedules, RSS feeds (*cough slashdot*), instant weather (no waiting on the 8's on TWC for me) on my DIY PVR, not so much with those features on the TiVo =)

And since it's PC based, it's somewhat trivial to add new features or ideas as I come up with them (or the community writes more apps). I don't have to wait for corporate bigwigs to decide how I want to watch TV/use my DVR/PVR... I decide.

The price you pay for the level of customization/freedom is:

1. possibly more initial costs
2. time/effort
3. more time
4 patience =)

I think it's worth it, because I like TV/PVR's, and I like futzing around with my PC case off... and it's an another excuse to buy a dremel (for case modding)

e.

Re:another downside to TiVo

[evilviper]

Me I just edit out some commercials, burn a DVD, and go!

And that's where you would save loads of time with a PC built for the job...

Me, I don't have to transfer huge video files over the network, re-encode them, and use the burner on another machine, with another interface, on another monitor. I click a couple buttons on my remote to edit my videos in avidemux. It takes a couple minutes for every hour of video, but it's rather easy to edit videos with just my remote. Then I click save, and in no-time, with just a couple more clicks on the remote, I can burn that video to an SVCD.

Building a PVR vs. buying a Tivo/ReplayTV is the age-old issue of "a stitch in time".

Re:another downside to TiVo

[Stevyn]

With the exception of local movie times, I can do that with my xbox running xbox media center. I know this article is about a pvr and so I won't blabber on about the benefits of xbmc, but it's a great program. Playing music and movies off my linux box is a cinch. I can also play any early nintendo or sega game with ease. Weather and RSS feeds also. Plus it connects up to internet radio stations. For college kids, it's a good investment.

ReplayTV + DVArchive - Simpler, Around Same Cost

[meehawl]

Or... you could just buy an ethernet-ready, autoconfiguring ReplayTV for around $400 (lifetime) or less from eBay, boot up the free software Java-based DVArchive (works on Windows 95/98/Me/NT/2000/Xp, Linux, Mac OSX 10.2.3 or later, Solaris, etc), and schedule, share, and distribute your content over your LAN or across the Internet at will. In this context, the ReplayTV box works like as a really very loosely coupled capture device with its own extensive on-board command set that can be driven remotely by the DVArchive program, either at a console or using a web browser. And unlike the Tivo's inferior HMO option, the DVArchive system costs nothing and is unemcumbered by DRM. Some select ReplayTV models even feature automatic commercial skipping (using associated XML content metatags) and let you download content from a library of several tens of thousands of shows stored on a wide distributed ReplayTV network. More info here or here.

Networking

[meehawl]

Networking Tivos sucks with the HMO. Have you looked at ReplayTV & DVArchive?

One word: ReplayTV

[meehawl]

I'm also able to watch any tv shows I've recorded from any of the other desktops in my house and anywhere in my house/yard from my laptop.

You can do all this with ReplayTV straight out-of-the-box, no hacks required.

Not quite

[Anonymous Coward]

Why do people always talk smack... o.k. pvr on the mac...
http://www.elgato.com/
I believe there's another service/hardware, but I don't remember the name.... But I do remember this....
http://www.lowendmac.com/500/mactv.shtml
http://www.apple-history.com/noframes/body.php?p ag e=gallery&model=tv
http://applemuseum.bott.org/se ctions/computers/mac tv.html

Very interesting reading... now don the tinfoil and tell us why the tech isn't really pervasive...
Oh yeah, meant to add... I think it's cool, but too much trouble for passive entertainment for me. When I'm lazy, I'm really lazy. Just hide your remote and watch how long people will watch one channel until it turns up.

Re:Not quite

[IANAAC]

Very interesting reading... now don the tinfoil and tell us why the tech isn't really pervasive...

Because, aside from the Tivos and Replays, until recently you couldn't build or buy anything that would sit and play nice in your component rack (which is why I mentioned that there is no Mac PVR solution, really).

Old News for ReplayTV

[meehawl]

Soon TiVo users will be able to share DRM'd dongle enabled shows

ReplayTV fans have been sharing shows across LANs, WANs, and between all (Java-enabled) platforms for years. We didn't have to wait for permission from the FCC. Check out Poopli. And my ReplayTV disk server is also my complete MAME ROMs and HTPC server. Snap!

wrong

[Anonymous Coward]

"Other drawbacks of MCE devices include the inability to play back the video content on anything but other MCE devices, and the inability to re-render the recorded files into a different format to save space. With MythTV and Linux, on the other hand, we can capture, re-encode and playback on completely separate machines, even Windows systems. For the truly crafty, Myth allows us to connect the front end of a different machine to the first MythTV system and play video files/streams in that manner. "

the first mce devices had limitations. 2 years ago. you can do anything you want with the files now.

But how GOOD is Zap2It guide data?

[Viewsonic]

I haven't seen anyone explain how good the free Zap2It guide data that these use is. Does it provide 2 weeks of data to look ahead to, that you can search? Full reviews? Full descriptions, ratings, and other info that Tivo provides? And is it really "free" or do you need to subscribe to spam or anything to receive it? I know a lot of people used Guide+ before Zap2It, and that guide data was *terrible* and often half the lineups and shows were entirely WRONG. How accurate is Zap2It when a station changes slots, or a show is shuffled, will the MythTV get the info from Zap2It and realign itself for the new shows?

People complain about the Tivo subscription, but if Zap2It can't do all of these, every single one, then the whole MythTV project is useless for a PVR to me. If it can, then it looks like we're headed in the right direction and I look forward to a HDTV capture version!

Re:But how GOOD is Zap2It guide data?

[The Vulture]

(As a note to anybody else curious about the Zap2It data, it really only works in North America.)

Before MythTV 0.15 came out, the data from Zap2It was "scraped" by grabbing HTML pages from their website and ripping the data from there. It worked, but Zap2It constantly broke the scrapers.

With MythTV 0.15, it seems that Issac (the core developer of MythTV) and Zap2It have worked out an agreement, where MythTV users can subscribe to Zap2It's guide data for free. The catch though is that in order to continue receiving guide data, you must fill in a survey every few months. (In case you're wondering, the last survey I got was something like, "What program are you using with the Zap2It service", and "Enter any comments you have on our service").

The guide data is pretty good, and you get guide data for 12 days (that's what I seem to get). Of course, you do have to run a script every night (although MythTV 0.15 can supposedly do this for you, it doesn't seem to work for me, so I use an entry in my crontab).

I have noticed that MythTV, when retrieving data from Zap2It (at least on the old scraper) would actually grab data for every day (not just a one day increment), just in case there was a schedule change on a show.

-- Joe

Re:But how GOOD is Zap2It guide data?

[whmac33]

I use Zap2It's service for MythTV.

Does it provide 2 weeks of data to look ahead to
Yes, but MythTV goes 10 days I think. Could change source to do more or less probably.
that you can search
Yes. There are a ton of searching options in the MythTV interface. MythTV saves it in a MySQL db and just about anything you want to search on is possible. I only use the alpha order listing though if I'm not look in the grid.
Full reviews
I haven't seen these nor have I looked.
Full descriptions, ratings, and other info that Tivo provides?
descriptions yes, ratings never seen but I don't watch movies much, other Tivo info not sure, never used a Tivo.
And is it really "free"
Had to fill out a survey. Free enough for me.
How accurate is Zap2It when a station changes slots
MythTV checks the next day every day and Zap2It has been accurate and updates any changes. Most local station web sites here in Tucson that have online listings are actually linked to zap2it so they must have a pretty good rep for accurate info :)

Billy

Personal experience.

[mindstrm]

To all the "Just buy a tivo " people - yes, if that works for you, go for it.

Unfortunately, in many countries, Tivo is not an option.

Tivo is also not quite as flexible.

- Use a PVR-250 for encoding.. heck, get two. The onboard mpeg encoder is definately worth it.

Think of it as a general purpose home PC.... I built a mythtv box for my folks.. it has xvids, records tv shows, does the weather, lets them browse photo albums (which is great when they have friends over).. it's accessible over SSH so I can upload new shows / videos / pictures to them, as well as record some of my favorite shows and download them (I live in another country.)

They use it to listen to streaming mp3 over the stereo when they have friends over playing poker...

Now, sure you can do all that with a PC.. yup. The point is to have this PC that's geared towards your home entertainment center rather than your desktop.. with an interface so simple an adult can use it, and a geek can tinker behind the scenes endlessly.

Re:Personal experience.

[Alizarin Erythrosin]

Think of it as a general purpose home PC.... I built a mythtv box for my folks

I showed mine to my parents and my dad was very impressed. He asked how much it cost and how long it would take to set it up. Once I tinker with it some more and see if I can make it a little more stable in certain items (like trying to browse the program guide while watching tv could hard-lock the system) I may set one up for him.

Re:Personal experience.

[evilviper]

- Use a PVR-250 for encoding.. heck, get two. The onboard mpeg encoder is definately worth it.

It's not too bad of an MPEG-2 encoder, but I don't think it deserves all that much praise. With realtime software encoding (mplayer/ffmpeg) I can EASILY get better quality MPEG-2 videos at 1/5th the filesize of my PVR-250 output.

What's with the massive praise for their encoder?

Now, sure you can do all that with a PC.. yup. The point is to have this PC that's geared towards your home entertainment center rather than your desktop.. with an interface so simple an adult can use it,

Yes, my thoughts, exactly. I've got a multimedia PC, with a very nice interface on it, doing all the hard work (video encoding/decoding) that I formerly did on my desktop PC. This was a real pain, seeing as I couldn't reboot my desktop when I wanted to... I had to turn the contrast up to watch videos, and down to do anything else... I had to deal with the sharing of disk space between multimedia and everything else... etc.

Now, my life is infinitely more simple. I use a TV to watch my multimedia, which saves me loads of money since I'm not built high-res 30" computer monitors to watch low-res DVDs, and I don't have to adjust the contrast/brightness every 5 minutes. I have an ultra-cheap low-end machine doing all my desktop apps, since a web-browser, spreadsheet, calculator, and e-mail client don't need much CPU power or RAM. And I've got a relatively tiny hard drive that's practically empty with all my important work (which makes it SO much easier to backup regularly).

Everyone, everywhere. I say to you, this is the way to go. A computer can do both multimedia and normal computer tasks, but having any single computer do both makes like very hard. Divide these two tasks among seperate machines, and life will be good.

and a geek can tinker behind the scenes endlessly.

Umm, I wouldn't really promote that fact :-)

Australian pre-packaged MythTV

[zbaron]

Like this. In fact, these are the guys that Aussie home brew MythTV builders get the programming info from.

Re:Australian pre-packaged MythTV

[quenda]

http://www.d1.com.au/hmc/index.html

Very nice looking, but it seems to be analogue. Who in Australia would want a non-digital PVR? Only those in country towns with no digital TV, I guess.

Digital (DVB-T) cards are around A$200, and stream mpeg-2 broadcast, including HD, to disk or network with little CPU.

Re: no tivo in canada...

[AlexMidn1ght]

Simply because you don't live in the US of A.

same old feel'n, different skills

[POds]

incase someone hasnt noticed, this isnt just about saving money, its about doing it your self, which gives you great satisfaction. You dads may have had skills to be a welder, carpender or even auto machenic. When he'd come home, he'd fix the car, make a coffee table, helb build a bird avery or build a varendah (patio?). Basicly, what our dads or mums did when we were kids, we're doing right now. Only, things have changed a little and the skills too. We come home from our software engineering jobs or even if we dont have a coding job but we're still tech savy or closet geeks, much like their would have been closet mechanics? boiler makers? Anyway, it's the same old thing, doing it your self gives you great satisfaction, despite the cost, even though it should prolly work out cheaper. For me, its satisfaction of doing the job but also learning it so i can show off my skills to others :). And really, thats been going on for years and years.

Re:same old feel'n, different skills

[HarveyBirdman]

You dads may have had skills to be a welder, carpender or even auto machenic. When he'd come home, he'd fix the car, make a coffee table, helb build a bird avery or build a varendah (patio?).

Yeah, but the car is pretty important, and home improvements have a retun on the investment of sweat equity.

I bought a Tivo despite being pretty damn tech savvy (I'm a hardware engineer AND software engineer BOW TO ME!) because, well, it's just friggin television. I use a DVR to reduce my time wasted on television.

The real satisfaction is in creating something original. The MythTV thing seems more like a Heathkit approach. Follow the directions and you're done.

For you young whippersnappers who don't know what a Heathkit was: http://www.heathkit-museum.com/

Re:same old feel'n, different skills

[Anonymous Coward]

Well said.

Re:same old feel'n, different skills

[karnal]

And from your post, I can tell your skill is neither grammar or spelling.

Not that I really care.

Re:same old feel'n, different skills

[NoMoreNicksLeft]

this isnt just about saving money, its about doing it your self

Oh, really? Do you select the proper chipsets, and hand-route the traces for custom boards? Write the VHDL for all the nifty FPGAs it needs?

What these people do, is the equivalent of adding some aftermarket fiberglass spoiler to your Honda Civic. I can respect the man that welds the frame himself, for his straight 8 hotrod, building the thing from scratch. But slapping some decals on the fenders, even if you scrubbed all the grime off them first, just doesn't count.

Re:same old feel'n, different skills

[geekoid]

"When he'd come home, he'd fix the car, make a coffee table, ..."
yes, becasue it was CHEAPER. very few people do something at work all day, then come home and want to do more. Of all the software engineers I have had the pleasure to work with, probably less then 2 % go home and do more software engineering.
The smartest people I have worked with had nothing to do with computers when they went home. I know a few that don't own computers.

Re:same old feel'n, different skills

[Anonymous Coward]

Too bad your dad didn't help you learn how to spell.

Re:same old feel'n, different skills

[Anonymous Coward]

And from your post, I can tell your skill is neither grammar or spelling.

Neither grammar NOR spelling.

Re:same old feel'n, different skills

[Anonymous Coward]

What these people do, is the equivalent of adding some aftermarket fiberglass spoiler to your Honda Civic.

Crap. The end result of what they are doing has functionality (THE functionality that they're looking for, not even just a minor extension) that the individual components do not. You might compare it to assembling a Honda Civic from parts according to a preprinted plan but it's nothing like adding a spoiler.

Re:same old feel'n, different skills

[karnal]

Funny thing is, I actually thought about that after I smacked "Submit"....

Life deals funny things to those of us who choose to jump all over another's faults....

They don't....

[AllenChristopher]

It's about instant gratification and control.

Want to watch that Seinfeld episode with the toothbrush? You can pull it up only if you have all 100 or so hours of Seinfeld stored.

You probably don't want to watch it yourself. You probably want to show it to someone else. "There was this great episode of such and such the other day, man, you should have seen it."

Call it an extension of memory. It's well worth reading what C.S. Lewis said about this in "Perelandra", and of course if the text were online I could link you to the right bit.

These sorts of people used to download a lot more music before the iTunes music store for the same reason. They want to be able to have any song, any time. Now you don't have to download the song until you want to hear it because you know the download will work.

The music packratting is starting to fall off... you don't stockpile every kind of snack just in case you have a craving because you trust 7-11. The video packratting is just getting started.

Re:They don't....

[Vengie]

I can't believe I'm seeing a "Perelandra" reference on slashdot. I was starting to think I was the only person that had read the Space Trilogy.


Thanks -- you made my day.

Re:They don't....

[Gentlewhisper]

"Want to watch that Seinfeld episode with the toothbrush? You can pull it up only if you have all 100 or so hours of Seinfeld stored."

Not to be a flamebait, but isn't that what DVDs are for?

What makes the tivo any more legal than downloading divx files from kazaa, if that is the way it is going to be used?

Having said that, I don't support any XXAA at all. I don't watch TV nowadays, nor buy CDs.

Re:They don't....

[AllenChristopher]

"Not to be a flamebait, but isn't that what DVDs are for? What makes the tivo any more legal than downloading divx files from kazaa, if that is the way it is going to be used?"

I don't suppose that is more legal. I don't care to comment on legality.

As for DVDs, they tend to come out way after the original series. Futurama Volume IV only came out just now.

Re:They don't....

[LazyBoy]

"Want to watch that Seinfeld episode with the toothbrush? You can pull it up only if you have all 100 or so hours of Seinfeld stored."

Not to be a flamebait, but isn't that what DVDs are for?

But that would mean getting off the couch.

Re:They don't....

[johnlcallaway]

It's not about laziness, it's about options.

I started putting all of my CDs on my computer a couple of years ago. It's neat listening to them at the computer instead of on the stereo and burning CD-RWs with 11 hours of music for long trips. But I didn't realize how handy it was until I had a poker party a few weeks ago. We used the dining room table to play poker, but there wasn't any music there. I could have used a boom box or turned the stereo up, but I had a much better option.

I pulled out my laptop, hooked up some old speakers, and programed 10 hours of random jazz. Then I set the whole thing above the kitchen cabinets out of the way.

With my DVDs and captures on the computer, I can pull them up and watch them anywhere I want, whenever I want, however I want. No searching through collections and worrying about getting them dirty or scratched.

And I can burn all of the episodes to DVD for backup.

Re:They don't....

[Anonymous Coward]

The video packratting is just getting started.

Nope. It started with the VCR. Millions of people with hundreds of VCR tapes, each with, say, three to six hours of movies and TV stuff totaling THOUSANDS of hours (meaning THOUSANDS of gigabytes worth of video data) EACH.

A cheap 700 gig hard drive with a VCR and software to automagicly clean up focus and sharpen the image; and the digital flood from saved VCR tapes begins.

The packratting continues ... the digital convergence and mass video swapping via internet are just around the corner.

Re:They don't....

[sumdumass]

The sony betmax case is what makes it more legal. You can do more thing for your own personal use (whatever reason that may be) then you can for the benefit of others. Recording video or audio from television or radio has been completly legal for the longest of time. Distributing those recordings is were the legal problems come into play.

Some people will say downloading is ilegal too but i have yet to find a law supporting that issue. Of course that doesn't make it right to do so either. That is if your going down the "you need to pay for it or honor the copyright holder intention" path.

Re:They don't....

[cpt kangarooski]

Sure, but this is a) cheaper, and b) more convenient, since DVDs are generally more annoying to use than video files on a hard drive, though there is still some work to be done with additional tracks and stuff for video files, I admit.

As for legality, the Tivo basically relies on the Sony case, which requires that, in this circumstance, the technology involved be capable of a significant noninfringing use. What people actually use it for isn't important.

Re:They don't....

[cpt kangarooski]

Downloading copyrighted works without the authorization of the copyright holder or an applicable exemption is illegal in the US because of 17 USC 106. That statute establishes that the copyright holder has the exclusive right to reproduce a work in copies. A copy is defined in 17 USC 101 as a material object from which the work can be perceived, reproduced, etc. (I'm paraphrasing all over the place here, but you can look at the statutes if you're curious about the precise wording)

Your hard drive is a material object from which works written to it can be perceived, reproduced, etc. Thus, if you write a work to it, the hard drive is the copy. Reproducing existing works into copies -- by reproducing, say, a video onto your hard drive as part of the download process -- therefore infringes, per 17 USC 501.

RAM counts too, BTW, per the MAI v. Peak decision and some others since, again, it's stable enough to be perceived or reproduced. That it's nevertheless volatile isn't relevant.

There are a LOT of rights under the general heading of 'copyright' and while people often recall that distribution is one of them, it is by far not the only one. 17 USC 106 has the biggies, and there are a few more scattered throughout title 17.

Re:They don't....

[sumdumass]

i have reviewed 17 usc and have still not found were it make it ilegal for a consumer to be in posession of a copy writen work they recieved from normal channel of distrobution. Now it does say that you cannot redistribute the work or perform it in any way if you didn't get it properly.

Also i think we are splitting some hares here. When you download somethign it is the other machine that is making the copy not yours. your computer and the internet is just the transport and media the copy is on/in. The person hosting the file is really the one in violation. Even though it can be construed that the downloader is too.

If you go even further into 17 USC specificaly chapter 6 section 602 allow for the importation of copy writen work without the copy owner consent. Combine this with 17 USC capter 1 section 111 that give me the right to make copies or secondary transmision without the copy owner consent under certain curcumstances (home use allowed) as well as section 109 were it give you and me the ability to transfer our particular copy of the copy writen work to others if lawfully obtained. (even by the means sugested earlier) Now section 110 subparagraph 4 gives us the ability to use devices commonly found in homes to make and view copies of copy writen works without the consent of the copy holder.

Again we are spliting hares and there are a few other parts of 17 USC that gives us more right to copy and distribute copy writen works. The main problem is you are expected to go into any venture with the asumption that the other person is not violating the law. This is considered good faith and is generaly aplied to most all transactions. If i offer a song or movie or program for dowlaod as the means i am using to transfer my particular copy of a copy writen work to you that i have legaly obtained, then there is no violation of any law as long as i transfer the copy and do not attemp to keep any parts of it. (ie. i delete the remaining copy after it is gone) We can go further into section 117 were it allows for copy to be made of computer programs and the like under ceretain circomstances.

I guess a main problem is that people that use kazza and the likes are expecting to obtain copywriten works without charge where there normaly would be and then may be suspectably to getting somethign like recieving stolen property charges or some sort of criminal mischief charges. It is a thin line we are traversing here. If you ask me is it right where someone can claim ignorance and do it, i would definatly say it is like stealing and shouldn't be done. If you ask me is it legal, i would say i can find more laws supporting the action then specificaly denying it. As a matter of record, i didn't find anythign that specificaly said "no you cannot make a copy of somethign" rather i found examples of when you "can copy" without the copy holders permission.

I'm glad we have had the chance to discus this. I've looked at 17 USC before but never in this depth. I maybe stretching it on a couple of the sections cited but i clearly leave room for interpretation. I belive this is one of the reason RIAA and MPAA like organizations are pushing for new laws to be made rather then enforcing the existing ones and trying to toughen the penalties. Pease feel free to continue this discusion as i am intregued by it and welcome any comments that prove me wrong.

Re:They don't....

[cpt kangarooski]

i have reviewed 17 usc and have still not found were it make it ilegal for a consumer to be in posession of a copy writen work they recieved from normal channel of distrobution.

I think it would help quite a bit if we were on the same page with regards to what some of the important terms mean. Many of them are defined in 17 USC 101, and those meanings override any more everyday meanings.

Probably the most important one for us here, is the definition of a copy. A copy is a tangible object, in which a creative work is fixed. If I write a story, the story is the work. The paper which it is written on is the copy. If I xerox it, I now have two copies, but there's still only one work. The act of creating a copy, we can infer from 17 USC 106(1), is properly described as reproduction.

So when you download, the medium in which the work is fixed is the copy. I.e. a reproduction of a work in a copy has occurred, and thus there is an infringement per 17 USC 501 and 106(1).

This is why we see decisions such as Utah Lighthouse Ministry (viewing a website, which resulted in reproduction in RAM or cache on a hard drive, could be infringement), and Napster (downloaders performed direct infringements for which Napster was contributorially and vicariously liable).

The only issue now is, who did it. This isn't that hard: copyright is a strict liability statute. If it happened, you're responsible. But if it helps, we could look towards intent: did the downloader take some action with the intent of ending up with reproducing a work and getting a new copy of it (i.e. downloading it into computer memory where it hadn't been before) that directly and proximately resulted in the reproduction occuring? Obviously, he did. It's not as though the music downloaded itself. The user caused the reproduction, even though he had to use some other people's facilities in doing so. But it's no different, really, than going to a xerox shop and making copies via another's xerox machine. Maybe they're also in trouble, but that's not relevant to whether or not you are.

17 USC 602 is irrelevant as to importation, as importation is a form of distribution, not reproduction. (This is why 602 is irrelevant for allofmp3) That is to say, you are allowed to obtain an EXISTING copy of a work, where again a copy is a tangible object. It doesn't let you make one. And 602 is pretty limited anyway, when you look at 602(b) which is not subject to the exceptions in 602(a).

17 USC 111 basically deals with retransmitting tv and radio -- the scenario is where, rather than have one antenna per TV, you have one master antenna to which multiple TVs are attached. It's irrelevant to this discussion.

17 USC 110 deals with performances and displays -- which are different from reproductions, per 17 USC 106 -- and again is irrelevant here.

If i offer a song or movie or program for dowlaod as the means i am using to transfer my particular copy of a copy writen work to you that i have legaly obtained, then there is no violation of any law as long as i transfer the copy and do not attemp to keep any parts of it. (ie. i delete the remaining copy after it is gone)

However, since a copy is a tangible object, and not merely bits, it is impossible to transfer it via download. Rather, such a transaction involves the reproduction of a second copy, distinct from the first. Even if the first is subsequently destroyed, it's still an infringement. The end effect doesn't matter, and you will be fucked.

We can go further into section 117 were it allows for copy to be made of computer programs and the like under ceretain circomstances.

But 17 USC 117 is generally not applicable; it only applies to copies of computer software owned by a purchaser. EULAs may interfere with this, and music isn't computer software anyway.

As a matter of record, i didn't find anythign that specificaly said "no you cannot make a copy of somethign" rather i found examples of when you "can copy" wi

Re:They don't....

[sumdumass]

We are on the same page with the definitions. i also have read 17 USC many time and while recently some has changed and stuff was added i think the problem lies within me not expressing my though clear enough.

Now when somethign is downloaded, It does not constitute more then copy or a work unless the original remains on the server. By your theory, everytime someone makes a purchase from itunes, apple need to pay royalties for the copy residing on your computer, the copy being transmited over the internet, and a copy residing in your ram. This just isn't true because 2 of thse copies are instantly deleted and are only there as a medium to travel on.

Now when you cite 17 USC 501 and 106(1), as giving the copy owners the exclusive rite to reproductions or thier work, i think you are glossing over the exemption as provided in sections 106 thru 121. They give people specific rights to make or duplicat copies as well as tranfer thier copy of the copy writen work with out the consent of the copy holder. I don't see were a person is in any violation if they are transfering thier hard copy of the copy writen work to another person.

The examples i gave are just in illistration of how the terms exclusive rights are not actually exclusive. the performances, cretransmisions, importations, computer programs duplication all represent differences in the exclusive right not being completly exclusive.

However, since a copy is a tangible object, and not merely bits, it is impossible to transfer it via download. Rather, such a transaction involves the reproduction of a second copy, distinct from the first. Even if the first is subsequently destroyed, it's still an infringement. The end effect doesn't matter, and you will be fucked.

you lost me here. how can a copy be tangible in the extent you screwed if you make it and not tangible in the sence of you transfering here. We are talking about warez here and not just mp3's on napster rite? Any ways they digitaly distribut music and movies on the internet without giving you a hard copy so does that means they have defrauded you in some way?

17 USC 106 says: "Subject to sections 107 through 121, the owner of copyright under this title has the exclusive rights to do and to authorize any of the following: (1) to reproduce the copyrighted work in copies or phonorecords...."

So there's your specific statement.

well section 109 falls into that catagory that allows us to transfer our particular copy of the music. If our copy was obtained in a digital format, on a computer, then we can release it in the same manor. Aslo when you go shoping for the music of programs/whatever, you expect the perosn selling it to you to be selling in a lawfull manor. If you give me a pencil, i generaly don't ask who you stole it from first. Hence when you get you copy of a copy protected work, you are always asuming you are getting it legaly unnless you are looking to get around it. Thats were i think there is a fine line with p2p networks as oposed to going to a website and downloading it. If napster or itunes gives away 5 songs to every one opening an account, i don't for one minute belive they are giveing ilegaly made copies to us. IF some one is tranfering thier copy, then you must asume they are going to follow the law.

That statment doesn't spell out that i cannot download music, programs, or other material. Further more, there are different curcumstances in the sections i previously quoted that make it legal without the consent of the copy right holder and certain situation were the copy holder need to contect me in writing to stop me from using it.

To date there still is nothign saying i cannot download music. you are asuming that all music is distribute on a cd/record/tap and the fact it exist in digital form on the computer is violation when it isn't.

Re:They don't....

[cpt kangarooski]

Now when somethign is downloaded, It does not constitute more then copy or a work unless the original remains on the server. By your theory, everytime someone makes a purchase from itunes, apple need to pay royalties for the copy residing on your computer, the copy being transmited over the internet, and a copy residing in your ram. This just isn't true because 2 of thse copies are instantly deleted and are only there as a medium to travel on.

No, a new copy arises whenever a work is fixed in a tangible medium of expression, including any form of computer memory, long enough for it to be perceived or reproduced.

When a work is in, e.g. RAM, it is there long enough to be perceived or reproduced, and RAM is a tangible object, hence, the RAM itself is the copy of the work stored within it.

It doesn't matter if you promptly delete it, because that would not prevent it from having been fixed long enough to be perceived or reproduced. In fact, as the download progresses via limited purpose computers between the host and oneself, it necessarily must be reproduced long enough to be further reproduced, or it could not get to you!

Here's a quote from the Intellectual Reserve case that's directly on point:

"Copy" is defined in the Copyright Act as: "material objects . . . in which a work is fixed by any method now known or later developed, and from which the work can be perceived, reproduced, or otherwise communicated, either directly or with the aid of a machine or device." 17 U.S.C. 101. "A work is fixed' . . . when its . . . sufficiently permanent or stable to permit it to be perceived, reproduced, or otherwise communicated for a period of more than transitory duration." Id.

When a person [**10] browses a website, and by so doing displays the Handbook, a copy of the Handbook is made in the computer's random access memory (RAM), to permit viewing of the material. And in making a copy, even a temporary one, the person who browsed infringes the copyright. n5 See MAI Systems Corp. v. Peak Computer, Inc., 991 F.2d 511, 518 (9th Cir. 1993) (holding that when material is transferred to a computer's RAM, copying has occurred; in the absence of ownership of the copyright or express permission by licence, such an act constitutes copyright infringement); Marobie-Fl., Inc. v. National Ass'n of Fire Equip. Distrib., 983 F. Supp. 1167, 1179 (N.D. Ill. 1997) (noting that liability for copyright infringement is with the persons who cause the display or distribution of the infringing material onto their computer); see also Nimmer on Copyright 8.08(A)(1) (stating that the infringing act of copying may occur from "loading the copyrighted material . . . into the computer's random access memory (RAM)").

And of course, Apple has in fact paid royalties for their entire system, including perhaps a certain extent of reproduction by users (e.g. from RAM to disk, from disk to RAM, on multiple machines, etc.). But their royalty is contractual, between them and whoever holds the applicable rights to the works involved, and probably is much flatter in structure than you seem to imagine. This isn't even a little bit difficult to arrange, and I am confident that it has been done.

Now when you cite 17 USC 501 and 106(1), as giving the copy owners the exclusive rite to reproductions or thier work, i think you are glossing over the exemption as provided in sections 106 thru 121. They give people specific rights to make or duplicat copies as well as tranfer thier copy of the copy writen work with out the consent of the copy holder.

That's because none of them is relevant except section 107, and as a practical matter, you usually can't win on that in the sorts of scenarios we're looking at here.

I don't see were a person is in any violation if they are transfering thier hard copy of the copy writen work to another person.

Well, you would be in violation of the distribution right, if not for the first

Buy foreign

[BobSutan]

Buy a foreign card. That will help add a little pressure to the American tech companies to stick up for us *little people*. When they start getting hit where it counts because of stupid legislation maybe next time they'll think twice about caving in so easily.

Yikes!

[NotQuiteReal]

...300 hours of TV

I wouldn't wish that on my worst enemy!

$635? What the hell?

[kbranch]

I built my own MythTV box for around $250. Athlon 2400(about $100 with motherboard), GeForce 4 MX something or other ($20 from a friend that was selling his), 80 GB HD (around $30), some WinTV tuner card ($20 on froogle), 512 MB of RAM (pretty sure I got that for around $50) and a $20 case and power supply. The NIC and sound were built in to the motherboard and I just borrowed a CD drive from an existing computer for the install, so I don't think I left anything out.

Hardly a high end system these days, but it's more than sufficient for a PVR. 80 GB will get around 100 hours of video using MPEG4.

Tivo?? No way, get a ReplayTV

[jmcmunn]

I have used all three: Tivo, ReplayTV, and Myth. For my money, I choose ReplayTV hands down. I currently own 2 of them.

Replay TV is about the same price as a Tivo. And unless I haven't seen the latest version of Tivo yet, you still can't easily get the vids off of your Tivo and onto a PC. With Replay TV, it is easy. Use a piece of software called DVArchive.

And yes, you can share recordings with other ReplayTV's of the same (or similar) model. Yes, you can program it over the web (my.replaytv.com I think it is, I never use it personally)

You can buy a good ReplayTV 5040 unit on Ebay for about $300 last I checked. This model has automatic commercial skip, and 30 second skip if you prefer to do it manually. I have one of these models and it kicks the crap out of my cousin's Tivo simply because I can network it with the 10/100 port on the back and get stuff off of it and onto my PC.

Lastly, if you want a bigger hard drive, there are instructions for installing dual 160 GB drives out there on the internet. I personally have plenty of room on my 40GB drive since I can archive to my PC.

Tivo I give a 7/10, Myth I give a 6/10 (mostly because it is more tedious to set up and lacks the all around neatness in the entertainment center) and I give ReplayTV 9/10. I do wish they had the thumbs up/down type thing Tivo has.

I don't want a Tivo

[Anonymous Coward]

I just built a MythTV box. It cost more than a Tivo and took a fair amount of time and effort.

I love it. This project is not about saving money, or convenience. It's about fun. It's also about control. I'm having fun. My box does what I want it to, not what someone else thinks will sell best. If I want three tuners, I can have them. I can have as little or as much storage as I want. I can watch shows from any computer on my network. I can transcode recorded shows into any format. It's all about the freedom to do whatever I am willing to put the effort into.

If you want to save money, buy a Tivo, it's a good product. If you want convenience, rent a dvr from your cable company. I want more than that, and am willing to spend the time and money to get it.

uber-reply...

[typhoonius]

Not a bad list, but you really should "splurge" on the Happguage PVR-250 card. It does the encoding in hardware, so even a low end box could easily support two tuners. With the card you put in your list, all the encoding would fall on the CPU. Not only that, I'm not sure that nVidia's personal cinema is supported under Linux. An integrated video card (on the motherboard) would do fine as long as it had TV out that was supported under Linux (and looked half decent). Wouldn't even need that if you used a monitor.

Thanks for the tip. I'll be sure to look around more before committing to any video hardware (I'm used to building servers, so I'm in foreign waters here).

Well, first, you didnt include shipping in any of the estimate. This is usually mistake #1.

Like the AC said, shipping is usually free if you don't mind waiting a little longer. I think of it as turning patience into money.

I'm mostly using Newegg to get a feel for what's out there anyway; when I actually break ground on this thing, I'll spend some more time hunting out the cheapest prices. (I guess I could've skipped a step on done this all on PriceWatch, but there's some shady shit on there; do I want a "House Brand" motherboard from some guys operating out of a pickup truck with the engine running?)

Hmm... what's the monthly fee for TiVo... $10 a month? You'd have to wait four and a half years before you were monetarily ahead in that case.

No problem. Clearly, this thing'll be built to outlast the cockroaches, what with buying criteria like "cheap" and "adequate" and "I dunno." I don't think you'll be laughing so hard when my PVR has to rebuild civilization.

People blow money on expensive gaming rigs all the time when Sony and Nintendo are a step away from selling their consoles out of gumball machines. Value is subjective. If I want to spend extra cash on vendor independence, built-in MAME, hardware I know better than my immediate family, etc., then it's no skin off your ass. Hell, building computers in general is wasted capital when Dell and HP will give you a top-of-the-line PC, display, printer, and 24-hour support line with some confused Hindu guy for about a month's rent. If I have to explain the value of wasting time and money building things for no apparent reason, then I need to find a geekier clique than this. Maybe switch to Hurd and move to Tibet. Shit, people.

Worst case scenario: I get bored watching Simpsons episodes one frame at a time, and my PVR transforms into a headless web server with a $100 video card.

Anyway, thanks for the advice, everyone. Keep it coming since I'm just making this up as I go along.

(Oh, and I meant 3.5 mm instead of 3.5" with regards to headphone jacks. NASA-itis.)

Hauppauge PVR-250

[_KiTA_]

You mean Hauppauge PVR-250 I'm sure. I couldn't find a Happguage. :)

Not intentionally trolling, just posting the correct spelling for those who wanna look it up. :)

Re:ReplayTV + DVArchive - Simpler, Around Same Cos

[killjoe]

Does it have a DVD burner?

Dear sir. plz stop teh lying

[JVert]

Look, I admit I use a MCE and I love it, I have another computer with a PVR card that I will probably convert to a linux pvr of some flavor this month. This article is great but damnit if they dont get something wrong. Recorded TV can be played on any MS pc with media player, it does not have to be a media center pc. Third party utilities (free, third party utilities) have been around to re-encode the dvr-ms format into other formats (mpeg and wm9 available etc.) This whole linux pvr vs MCE is like bush vs Kerry. Neither are perfect and both sides like to sling mud, but really i'm seeing a lot more crap flying from the linux side, indeed this is the place for "news for nerds", "not fair and balanced".

Re:Dear sir. plz stop teh lying

[Anonymous Coward]

You see MS is like cocaine. At first it seems great and adds enjoyment to your life. Then slowly over time it insideously starts to take over your life and before you know it, you are totally under it control.

Just remember, MS is about controlling you not allowing you to be in control. In any aspect of life this not not good.

Tivo is a ripoff, here is why:

[Anonymous Coward]

I got a Tivo roughly 2 years ago (wasn't $99) and I purchased it because they had a special on the lifetime service for an even $100. Just after a year it broke. You have to fix the box you have, because you CAN NOT transfer service to another box, they have hard coded MAC address like ID numbers. Just sending the box in to be looked at would have been nearly $100 (out of the 1 year warranty), not to mention I would have had to pay shipping on top of that, both ways. Plus parts. I had a sony, and as soon as my brother heard he got me in touch with a friend of his who had similar problems. Turns out he had a phillips box that had a modem that went bad. Sent it in to have it fixed and it came back with a good modem, but the video card was damaged "in shipping", and phillips was going to charge him to have that fixed seperately. In the end it was obvious to me that Tivo's are designed to break or are just crappy pieces of equipment with semi-neat software feauters I never used anyway, so I went with the rental boxes built into satelite receivers.

As for that: I pay close $65 a month for 4 rental boxes in my house (not one Tivo to fight over) one of which is a 2 in one box that can record two progrmas at once and feed two seperate outputs at once as well. If they break, no problem and no extra charge. Boxes get old and I want new technology? I just pay a small fee per box to get newer upgraded boxes. End of story.

Re:Tivo is a ripoff, here is why:

[Anonymous Coward]

Glad you posted anonymously, probably because there are some untruths in there.

If your TiVo breaks you can buy a new one at any time and transfer service to it if you don't want to fix your old one. So in this case you could have purchased another $99 TiVo and transferred your lifetime subscription.

Excellent Documentation?

[elmegil]

I don't know what those reviewers are smoking. Don't get me wrong; I have a Myth box, and I like it a lot. The software itself rocks. But the documentation is a huge haystack of braindumps without a map. These guys put Myth onto a box in a relatively short period of time, modulo distribution problems. That sounds to me like they've read and reread and rereread the docs enough times that they know what's where--they've done it before and don't need a map any longer. For a first time Myth user, the docs are going to blow your brain into little pieces, and it's going to take you a long time just to absorb what's relevant to your system from them unless you have a really standard (i.e. just like the developers') machine.

Oh, by the way? I have a job already, and a family, and a life. So don't tell me it's my fault I can't digest the haystacks and make a map for the world. I'm a supporter of Myth, I'm just saying that the review does not set reasonable expectations for the effort it takes unless you're installing KnoppMyth.

Yeah but...

[NEOtaku17]

Can you get a dual-layer DVD Burner in your Tivo so you can burn stuff when your HD fills up?

If you want one...

[meehawl]

Does it have a DVD burner?

Although I do have a couple of TB of storage on the LAN, I do of course run out of space and some burning is required. Personally, I convert most everything to DIVX and burn to CD - stil working through an odd thousand or so free-after-rebate blanks. But I hear you can get DVD burners for basically free these days.

Not in Canada....

[Roger W Moore]

or at least I haven't seen any here. So for us a DIY MythTV solution is the only way to go.

ReplayTV and MythTV owner

[Anonymous Coward]

Having both a ReplayTV 4040->120GB and a MythTV setup, I think that there are some things that aren't easily quantified that lend themselves to MythTv.

Yes, MythTV is a PITA to setup. Especially if you are using a Via M10000 w/ PVR-250 like I am. I started out with a Matrox G200 back when that was the only hardware solution supported. With the crappy via video drivers, getting hardware mpeg2 acceleration is hit or miss. Then lirc for IR Remote work is a pain too. I have it but don't even use it, just use my wireless keyboard w/ built in mouse instead ($30).

But thosen that say replay+dvarchive is better:
Annoying Replay problem #1: It reboots itself every day. Press pause while watching something that's already recorded, and the next thing you know you have to wait 4 minutes for it to reboot.

Annoying ReplayTV Problem #2: You aren't watching anything, the guide is showing, whatever. A show starts recording. Replay decides that it should start playing the show immediately, scaring the bejeezus out of me. Who wants that?

Problem #3: Who would want to burn the crap video bitrate that ReplayTV generates? Fine, it looks okay most of the time, but if you're using 480p component out, and for example watching a game with crowd shots, artifacts everywhere, even on the highest setting. I would much rather find someone else's 350MB HDTV rip on BT(which can be integrated into MythTV) than deal with a 2.5GB fullscreen version that RTV generates.

The main thing about ReplayTV that's great, that shouldn't be discounted, is the sheer numer of settings if you set it up that way. Being able to find a show that I want in under 20 seconds is worth $10-20 to me over the life of the product. Being able to record that NOVA/NAture special at 8000 kbs is worth $10-20. Being able to play all of my mp3 collection (250GB on a separate mp3 server across the network) with an easy to use interface is worth $50-100. Playing DVDs: $20. Playing pr0n and the avi's I DL: $30. Being able to set up to record something when I'm not at home for that day, using MythWeb or TightVNC: $30. Knowing that if ReplayTV goes bankrupt again, or Tivo does so, that I'm still covered: $priceless.

Don't get me wrong, I do like my replay. It just doesn't do what I want it to do, I have to do what it wants me to do...

Tivo and....

[Anonymous Coward]

Here's my useless comment.....
My tivo cost $99. The subscription is like $5 or so per month with DirecTV. It's hacked so I get to save all my favorite shows, rip out commercials that I actually want to keep for one reason or another, and I can do all sorts of wacky things. Also...IT RUNS LINUX!
Why should I bother paying more money to put together something that isn't as refined as this consumer product while it does EVERYTHING I want it to do?
Incendently I watch it using TVtime on Fedora and my 22" trinitron....go fig

Thanks,
AC

MOD THIS UP PLEASE!

[levl289]

I think that everyone into computers/engineering goes through a stage in their lives when they want to build things that rival the stuff you can buy off the shelves - yeah, they follow directions, and they're really not doing too much of the innovation, but they're happy to do it because it sets them apart, and on some level they learn something.

Then as time progresses, you get a full-time job, and you start hammering away at it - long hours and such. You come home, and you're exhausted. You learn to appreciate the several hours that you can just vegetate reading a book, or just listening to music.

Your free hours start becoming very valuable to you, and you start weighing the benefits of the "yay, I can follow directions" route, to the "plug and play, but lack some obscure feature" route, and generally the latter ends up winning out, and you realize you haven't really been missing all that much! Who knows, you might even start building stuff from scratch in order to relax...

Then again, were it not for your hacking, you wouldn't have gotten into the job you're at right now, and you wouldn't be at this crossroads in time management ;)

Chicken and the egg?

or how about you shut up?

[Anonymous Coward]

Not all of us here at Slashdot lives in USA. What the heck am I going to do with a Tivo here in Europe?
This solution will work for all and not just you, narrow minded yankies.

Did msft pay them to do this??

[davevr]

Maybe windows can use this article in their media center ads. It is very convincing!

Not much of a guide

[Anonymous Coward]

Yikes, are they trying to make it difficult? There's no need to compile ivtv and myth, and they send you different places for documentation. This site is a complete guide to installing Myth TV on Fedora Core 1. apt-get is used heavily, and most of the config files are available for download. I went from a clean box to a PVR in 5 hours, and that was without reading the documentation beforehand. The funny thing is, Tivo has to use a phone line the first time it runs, so it actually didn't take much longer to build a Myth box.

Myth does so much more than Tivo: dvd, dvd ripping, music, web browser, rss, weather, pictures. Maybe some people aren't interested in those things, but I sure am. But even as a PVR Myth has already surpassed Tivo. There are more options, and it's much easier to resolve conflicts (the main problem I've had with Tivo). Then you have the fact that you can do anything you want with the hardware: dual tuner cards, RAID, etc. Yeah, it's more expensive, and a BMW is more expensive than a Civic. Go figure.

Bah, too expensive..

[Cthefuture]

This is what I used:

- PVR-350 - $180

- My old 800 Mhz P3 computer from years ago - "Free"

- Newer, quieter power supply - $50

- 400 GB worth of hard-drives bought over the course of a few months with CompUSA rebates - $230

Then MythTV + Zap2It datadirect.

So for $460 I have a 400 hour PVR. Of course it would be a lot cheaper for just a 120 hour machine (substract about $180).

It's better than TiVo for a number of reasons:

- I can watch the recorded shows from any computer in the house from the web interface. The web interface lets me do things like schedule shows, see the program guide, and watch recordings.

- I can easily burn anything I record to DVD because everything from the PVR-350 is recorded in standard MPEG2 DVD format. I don't even need to re-encode, I just burn straight to DVD (fast).

- MythTV is way more configurable than TiVo. I mean, there are settings for doing all sorts of things.

- Things like MythVideo let me watch stuff that wasn't recorded on the machine (like downloaded items or whatever; stuff recorded from your old VHS tapes, etc.)

And probably other stuff I'm forgetting.

With the PVR-350 you absolutely do not need a powerful computer. I ran MythTV on a 200 Mhz Celeron system with PVR-350 for over a year. MythTV itself is kinda slow but there are a lot of people working on making it better. The video quality is excellent though. Even the "low quality" (1GB per hour) is way better than what TiVo encodes.

Re:Bah, too expensive..

[evilviper]

I can easily burn anything I record to DVD

No you can't... because a DVD-Burner isn't in your price-list.

I think your price list is probably missing a lot of small things like this, that you didn't bother to list, but make a HUGE difference in the total...

Personally, I was thinking I could build a full-featured PVR with PC components for about $200... Well, I can built a PC for that much, but when you start adding up all the little things, like an extra bit of RAM, an extra-large hard drive, a remote, a video card that does TV-out, and of course a good (non-hardware) encoder card, the price really goes up quick, unless you really push hard for the bare minimum, and you end up with a system costing double that much.

Now, while I'm ranting, I should say that you could spend a hell of a lot less on hard drives if you did software encoding... An 800MHz system would probably be fast enough to do realtime MPEG-2, and with an Nvidia Geforce card, you could do realtime playback with 99% of the processing done on the card, with free TV-out to boot. If you're going to built a system to do the task, I'd get a processor about 2Xs as fast, but that's only for extra headroom, and piece of mind.

Re:Bah, too expensive..

[Cthefuture]

Depends on how you look at it. For me the MythTV solution was very cheap. I don't count the price of the PC because it was already waiting for the trash bin. I don't count the DVD burner because I already had it for doing my backups. So for me and a lot of others like me, it is a very cheap and good solution.

Now, while I'm ranting, I should say that you could spend a hell of a lot less on hard drives if you did software encoding... An 800MHz system would probably be fast enough to do realtime MPEG-2, and with an Nvidia Geforce card, you could do realtime playback with 99% of the processing done on the card, with free TV-out to boot.

Hmmm, doesn't sound like you've ever tried to actually do any of this. The PVR encoding is beautiful and very high quality. Again, one of the advantages of the MythTV setup is that I can pick whatever encoding rate I want. Sure, I could save tons of space with low bit-rate encodings. However, when I sit down to watch a recording I want it to look like I'm watching a live cable signal, not some crappy computer encoded video. Even the 1GB/hr on the TiVo looks pretty crappy to me. The PVR-250/350 can encode at the 1GB/hr and it's hard to tell that it's a recording (at least on a normal s-video type TV).

The other issue is output. I've never seen software decoded output that looks 100% perfect. There are all sorts of syncing issues to prevent tearing and other negative effects. The PVR-350 can put mpeg-2 straight to an S-Video connection with absolute perfect fidelity.

Sure, you can save $150 and go software encoding. You'll need more than an 800 Mhz P3 if you want to really use the system though. For example, there is no way a software encoding/decoding machine could record and playback at the same time. My PVR-350 machine does that with something like 2% or less CPU usage. Then there is the commercial detection that needs some CPU to do it's thing (it runs in the background at low priority though).

Re:Bah, too expensive..

[evilviper]

Hmmm, doesn't sound like you've ever tried to actually do any of this.

Holy crap! You couldn't be more wrong if you TRIED! I have a PC that is recording almost non-stop, and I've used both cheap cards that require software encoding, and a Hauppauge PVR-250.

The PVR encoding is beautiful and very high quality.

No. It produces videos with lots of video noise in the picture. High frequency noise is the most evident. Plus, to be even watchable, you have to use a bitrate that takes 2GB/hour, which is far, far higher than needed with mencoder/ffmpeg MPEG-2 files. In fact, before I got my PVR-250, I was using a 40GB hard drive, and even with tons of shows being recorded and not watched often, I had plenty of room.

Even the 1GB/hr on the TiVo looks pretty crappy to me.

That's fine... Software encoding does FAR, FAR better than I've seen any hardware encoder do.

The PVR-250/350 can encode at the 1GB/hr and it's hard to tell that it's a recording (at least on a normal s-video type TV).

No, I have it setup at 2GB/hour, and the picture still breaks-up a bit in high motion scenes.

I've never seen software decoded output that looks 100% perfect.

Then you haven't looked very hard.

There are cards like the Matrox G(4xx/5xx/6xx), DXR3, and many more.

I could say much more on the subject, but since this is off the topic anyhow, I'll leave it at that.

For example, there is no way a software encoding/decoding machine could record and playback at the same time.

Since I've heard plenty of people who are playing back DVDs on 200MHz systems and some even older, I'd say you quite certainly can on a mere 800MHz system.

But that's not necessary though... Absolutely every single video card with TV-out that I've seen in years, has a built-in MPEG-1/MPEG-2 decoder. This includes all ATI cards in the past decade, and all Nvidia cards with TV-out I've seen. In other words, you could spend as little as $20 on a videocard, and it will have hardware playback.

Then there is the commercial detection that needs some CPU to do it's thing (it runs in the background at low priority though).

Well, I'm not talking about doing this with MythTV at all, so that's besides the point.

Although, it brings up a funny issue. The other great thing about software encoding, is that it has fairly infrequent keyframes, and only inserts a keyframe at scene-changes. That means, when I have a software-encoded video, I just set my "seek" time to about half the normal commercial break time, and hit it twice, and I'm EXACTLY in the perfect spot. It's hard to describe, but it works millions of times better than MythTV's seeking, seeking in a PVR-250/350-produced video, and it's far faster than even the automatic commercial-skip in MythTV.

All good reasons that I uninstalled MythTV a couple days after I finished installing it.

Re:Bah, too expensive..

[Cthefuture]

Your PVR-250 is bad or your hookup is bad. It shouldn't be like that.

Re:Bah, too expensive..

[evilviper]

Your PVR-250 is bad or your hookup is bad. It shouldn't be like that.

I don't believe that's true, but let's just say you are correct, for the sake of arguement.

Even in that case, software video encoding can still produce better quality video at a fraction of the filesize.

Educate me. Why do I care about guides?

[nusratt]

I don't understand why people are fixating on the "guide" issue.
If you don't have a guide, can't you still do programming manually, just like with a VCR?
Can you do this with Myth? With Tivo?

Useless cynical review

[hugg]

I have an affection for my MythTV, being that it's in such a cute little Shuttle mini-case, but there are drawbacks:

* Code is still version 0.16. Sometimes my SO calls me @ work asking nicely how I un-freeze the screen.
* The best encoding solution is the PVR-250 card. But some newer cards have firmware which causes small glitches that aren't entirely diagnosible.
* To support both interlaced video and overscan (filling the entire display) you need to pick your video chipset/driver very very carefully. Deep perusal of FAQs and threads is neccessary.
* The XML program data is *not* forever free. It is a service provided on a temporary basis by zap2it.com, and who knows when their goodwill will expire.
* Hate to say it, but the other modules besides TV are not so great. I find myself just using xmms and mplayer.
* If you spend the week or so required to get one running, you will have friends that will ask you to build them one. You will have to politely ask that they just save themselves the trouble and buy a TiVo :)

Best features: Commercial detection, multiple encoders, great web interface, no Big Brother in your living room :)

Re:Useless cynical review

[xsecrets]

Well my mythtv box never freezes. and I would highly suspect the reason yours does has to do with the fact that you said code is at 0.16, when in fact 0.15.1 is the latest, and the only way to get 0.16 features is to run CVS which will of course be buggy as it's development code.

educate me-- ?crippled Tivo/ReplayTVs?

[nusratt]

I vaguely recall reading allusions to Tivo and/or Replay having actually crippled *later* models (for DRM concerns, etc.).
IOW, *older* models are sometimes more capable than newer ones.

Can someone give me a summary (or some links) about which commercial unit (brand + model) is the most capable (especially DRM-wise), and how it compares to the best available DIY option?

Cripple Fight

[meehawl]

some links

Here

Prallel Evolution

[meehawl]

It's better than TiVo for a number of reasons

All the reasons you list (web interface, networked playback and recording, configuration, VHS input, download playback) are part of a ReplayTV + DVArchive configuration. Tivo has really lowered people's expectations of what a commercial PVR can actually *do*.

Re:Prallel Evolution

[Cthefuture]

Maybe, but the Replay costs more. You gotta add that $12/mo or $300 to the price. It's way more expensive.

Much Much More

[meehawl]

Myth does so much more than Tivo

All the reasons you list (dvd, dvd ripping, music, web browser, rss, weather, pictures) are part of a ReplayTV + DVArchive configuration. Tivo has really lowered people's expectations of what a commercial PVR can actually *do*.

What about other costs?

[Krashed]

Most of you forgot about the one cost that is hard to escape. Electricity is something you are going to be paying much more for with a homebuilt DVR. A Sempron based computer will probably draw ~250 watts of power on idle plus make loads of noise and not be very pretty. A Tivo draws under 100 watts, has a very quiet fan and looks great among DVD players, DBS receivers, Playstations, Xboxs, and amps. That comes out to almost $10 difference a month where I live in just extra cost to power that homebuilt DVR.

150(Watt difference) * 24(Hours/day) * 30(Days/Month) / 1000(Find Kilowatts/hour) * .09(Avg Cost Kilowatt = $9.72

Do yourself a favor and just pay the monthly Tivo fee. You will end up paying about the same in monthly fees just to operate the two systems but the Tivo has a much lower initial investment, looks better, easier to use, and takes a whole 10 minutes to setup. That doesn't apply to people who are constantly archiving shows to DVD in which case a DVR would be easier but even on Tivo, it isn't difficult. I just hookup my MiniDV camcorder to the Tivo for that 1 or 2 shows a month I want copied and route that signal directly to my Firewire port (as opposed to copying to tape and then back out) and that directly to DVD (burning the disc out of Tivo in realtime). Try it sometime.

Heat Problem?

[meehawl]

Press pause while watching something that's already recorded, and the next thing you know you have to wait 4 minutes for it to reboot.

Dude I've had a couple of RTVs for a while now and neither of them have ever done this. Sounds like your unit is flaking out. I would open it up and blow all the dust out - might be a shorting problem. Also check for heat. Try replacing the power supply. ALso check/replace the IDE cable and/or disk drive.

Re: SERIOUS diy electronics

[nusratt]

"I use a DVR to reduce my time wasted on television."

Oh, the irony . . . ;-)

"The MythTV thing seems more like a Heathkit approach"

btw...
I'm really regretting that I didn't get into the whole Heathkit thing when I was a kid.
For quite some time now, I've been seriously lusting to get into DIY / self-teach electronics --
from basics, through building test gear, to doing serious home-fab of embedded comms boards, "TOE"s, NPUs, etc.

But the only aids I recall seeing marketed, are things like "Gee, kids, this kit comes with 1,000 different real-world experiments and nifty tricks you can do!"

Suggestions?

Have a Tivo - built a Myth box - selling the Tivo

[Anonymous Coward]

I tried building a myth box in early 2003 and after much cursing my wife got me a Tivo for father's day so I'd abandon fighting with MythTV.

Fast forward to a few months ago and I did a simple "apt-get install mythtv" on my desktop PC, and damn - it worked great the first time!

I decided to add MythTV to a dedicated box here - in this case, my SOHO server. It works just as good as my Tivo and the ability to save the shows in various formats is great. I know the guys at work love when they can suddenly find episodes of "Monster Garage" and "American Chopper" on that super secret share that a select few know about... ;)

FYI Before you think that you need some big honkin' machine to do this on, here's the specs on my MythTV box:

- Shuttle SS40G XPC
- Athlon XP 2200+
- 512 MB RAM
- 200 GB EIDE drive
- Hauppauge PVR-350 card
- Some no-name IR keyboard/mouse combo
- Running Debian SID

Now what does this little box do? Just the following:

- Samba server for Windoze PC's
- File server for Linux PC's
- Print server for house
- Firewall
- Router
- IMAPS server with procmail/ClamAV/spamassassing scanning, fetchmail & fetchyahoo for grabbing mail, and sendmail for sending it back out
- Web server
- Runs the family webcam
- DNS server
- DHCP server
- MythTV box

Try running all that on a Windows box!

MythTV on Server

[chip33az]

At home, I built a very small server for the house to use. It runs Debian, and I use it to power my thin client in the kitchen (for family calendaring and TV watching). I was able to install MythTV easily on the server and pop in a WinTV PVR 250 with relatively little hassle (I did one previously and knew what to expect). The benefit I get from MythTV is that I am able to watch TV on my Linux box in the den point the frontend to the server's backend. I think this is a great feature. Just my thoughts.

Re: SERIOUS diy electronics

[HarveyBirdman]

Oh, the irony . . . ;-)

Huh? If I was spending endless time tweaking and running a PC based DVR, it would be ironic, but I said I bought a Tivo, which took 10 minutes to get up and running, and lets me watch the shows I like in a more efficient manner.

Priceless

[meehawl]

It's way more expensive.

More expensive than which? Tivo?

I guess I am really factoring in the cost of the PC to a ReplayTV system as just adding a couple hundred GBs to an existing LAN. That's $100 for the RTV, $300 for activation, and $100 for the disk.

Typical: patronize the geek.

[jotaeleemeese]

I have a career, surely making most dosh than more.

I have a home, yesterday I did gardening, painted a new door and cared for my bonsai tree (which need more watering today).

I have a wife, thanks, we spent all morning together today and we have a couple of concerts (the PROMS, including the last night if you care to google) this week. The couple of movies we watched last week (Desperado, I robot) where time nicely spent, followed by dinner in nice restaurants. Turkish and Spanish cuisines this time.

My skills outside the world of PC: Hablo espa&ol, und ein bissien Deutsch et un peu francais. Oh yes, and I play piano, I am currently practicing Beethoven's Moonlight Sonata. And I play chess. Er, I am a qualified first aider.

Oh jolly! I am damned! I build my own PCs and spend many hours of my free time doing Linux stuff as a hobby.

Just because you lack organizational skills to enjoy your life, or beacuse you guess others lack them, does not mean you are quite right as you obviously think you are in regards of your stereotypical view of the geek.

Good Better Best

[meehawl]

Tivo has a much lower initial investment, looks better, easier to use, and takes a whole 10 minutes to setup.

That is a good point about the electricity usage, but Tivo's networking and DRM-crippled "HMO" content distribution leaves something to be desired. Go with ReplayTV/DVArchive and you'll be much happier when you get smoother cross-platform networking and uncrippled content sharing right out of the box.

Re:Educate me. Why do I care about guides?

[geckofiend]

With Myth yes, with Tivo no.

Mine's cheaper

[cfuse]

PC with:

• Celeron 333 cpu (free - salvaged)
• Memory 384Mb (free - salvaged)
• Hard Drive 13Gb (free - salvaged)
• Tv out card (free - salvaged)
• Sound card (free - salvaged)
• Case $10

But then again en Mythbox is so much more...

[lucason]

than JUST a TiVo.

It's a DVD player/Ripper it's an "audio center"/MP3 player, It's a slideviewer and a webbrowser...

It's a news and weather ticker.

I'm guessing that's worth more than 99$

What I would have done...SageTV $

[jriskin]

1. Cheap MB w/256MB RAM and XP 1800 $125
2. Brand X case/power $25
3. 80GB HD $60
4. Audio/Ethernet/Video on MB $0
5. Tuner Card + SageTV +Remote $175
6. Cheap keyboard, mouse and floppy $15
7. Optical drive $25
Total: $425

This is essentially what I run (less about 280GB of disk space) and it works great, is a breeze to install and very reliable. Remember you don't need any amazing hardware the PVR250 is doing all the hard encoding work.

And best of all, its WIFE SAFE...hand her the remote and shes good to go.

One final note if you want it to be family safe...
1. make sure IR receiver can't be tripped on
2. disable any peridic software that may pop up (virus scanners, windows clean up etc...).
3. Make sure it boots when the power comes on and SageTV auto launches

Re: SERIOUS diy electronics

[nusratt]

"If I was spending endless time tweaking and running a PC based DVR, it would be ironic"

Harv, what I meant is that, strictly speaking, watching TV (and arranging not to miss out) is a waste of time, and the true time-saver is simply to unplug the tube --
not that I'm any more likely to do it than you are.

btw, have you any thoughts re my kits question?

Re:Educate me. Why do I care about guides?

[nusratt]

what about Replay?

Isn't this _very_ old news?

[Anonymous Coward]

I tried a program called nouse (presumably what this article is referring to) that hooked up to a webcam and voila. This was maybe 1½ year ago or more.