On Gay Themes In Videogames

who ... cares.... by MBraynard · 2004-07-12 08:02 · Score: 4, Insightful

More than movies or TV, games are about being fun. So while you might see an otherwise unejoyable tv miniseries get acclaimed for discussing some kind of social issue like pedophilia or AIDS, you are not going to find a game that tries to make a social issue it's theme cause it won't sell.

There is no market for 'artistic' games. Only fun ones.

Re:who ... cares.... by I_Love_Pocky! · 2004-07-12 08:30 · Score: 4, Insightful

I don't know why this has been modded off topic. You are clearly trying to say that making a "gay" game for the sake of it being a "gay" game is "artistic."

In that sense I agree with you. As with anything else, there is no point in creating entertainment featuring a particular segment of society unless it adds to the entertainment value.

My biggest problem with this whole idea is that unless it is handled properly, I would think that any "gay" game would probably turn out to be one big stereotype reenforcing gay joke.

Honestly, it shouldn't matter if a character is gay or not. Just as it usually doesn't matter if they are straight (I would think Duke Nuken would probably have been a very different game if Duke was gay). Most games don't really have that much sexual content in them anyway.
Re:who ... cares.... by spike_gran · 2004-07-12 09:13 · Score: 3, Insightful

Have to agree with this one. Games are supposed to be about fun. And since games are expensive to make, it only makes sense that that there is a need to appeal to the widest possible audience.

I think you can draw a distinction between highly scripted games with strong characters and less scripted games with more abstract characters. For the strongly scripted games (FFX), one needs to tell a story that will play to the big audience, which probably means being low on the explicit male homosexual behavior, because it might alienate some of the core audience. But for more abstract games, a sexual preference could be just another option in the avatar customization menu.

Since gays make up a small fraction of the audience, primarily gay-themed games will have a similar market to primarily gay themed movies. They will, by financial necessity, have smaller budgets, smaller scope and smaller development staff. Currently the state of game development tools means that it is still very hard to make a home-grown game (as compared to a home-recorded song or movie). But I think where the tools are mature and development is simple, gay games will pop up.
Re:who ... cares.... by irc.goatse.cx+troll · 2004-07-12 09:37 · Score: 1

"There is no market for 'artistic' games. Only fun ones."

I have to disagree. Take Shenmue for the Dreamcast. Beautifuly artistic, and I don't regret buying it-- definately got my moneys worth -- but really, it was nothing more than a real life sim. It wasn't anywhere as 'fun' as it was artistic, and yet it was on most peoples must buy lists..

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Pain lasts, kid. Its how you know you're alive. Sometimes I think this growing up thing is just pain management-TheMaxx
Re:who ... cares.... by AuMatar · 2004-07-12 09:42 · Score: 1

It was? I don't think I've ever heard of it. I had friends with Dreamcasts too.

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I still have more fans than freaks. WTF is wrong with you people?
Re:who ... cares.... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-07-12 09:52 · Score: 0

"But I think where the tools are mature and development is simple, gay games will pop up." ...So to speak...

(tee hee)
Re:who ... cares.... by Chasuk · 2004-07-12 10:18 · Score: 5, Insightful

A game with "gay" content is not an artistic one (necessarily).

I'm gay. I also happen to be artistic, but that has nothing to do with the type of content that most of my community would like to see.

What would we like to see? Gay-blindness, really. Game mechanics which make no distinction between hetero or homo avatars, and no gay characters who are stereotypes.

Ever heard the joke about the trick-or-treater who dressed as a serial killer? The punchline was that he dressed the same as the everyone else, because serial killers can be anyone.

Gay people can be anyone, and frequently are not whom you would expect.

If I can speak on behalf of the gay community, I would guess that this is our collective wish: to be depicted and treated in games exactly like the hetero majority.

From the main article:

U.S. producers are starting to slip in some risque content,

Gay content is not risque content. See above if you don't get it.

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Neopets - the best free game on the Int
Re:who ... cares.... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-07-12 11:50 · Score: 0

oh, it definately was
your friends might just be losers

i considered getting a dreamcast just because of the games graphics
Re:who ... cares.... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-07-12 12:01 · Score: 1

i am also gay, and I agree wholeheartedly with your opinions.

People/media try to turn homosexuality into an issue, when I personally believe it to be a "non-issue". It doesnt matter except in the context of my own home, who i am attracted to.

Especially the difference between how lesbians are treated verus how gays are treated in the media in general
Re:who ... cares.... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-07-12 14:48 · Score: 0

Yes, thank you for your confirmation. As I've been saying for years, not all gays are autistic.

Oh wait, did you say artistic? Oh crap, no wonder all those people...
Re:who ... cares.... by RevAaron · 2004-07-12 15:36 · Score: 1

So while you might see an otherwise unejoyable tv miniseries get acclaimed for discussing some kind of social issue like pedophilia or AIDS

Yeah, that's because everyone knows that only homos molest kids and get AIDS. Right? Not just do only homos perpetuate these aweful crimes, most homos are involved with them. Right?

pfft, yeah. right.

There is a market for "artistic" games, though whether or not gay people/bunnies/monsters are part of the plot. I suppose part of this is what you consider "artistic" to mean; a lot of people use it as a blanket insult to just mean anything they don't like. Not saying you are using it this way, but it's good to point out that "artistic" is often a word with strong connotations.

There is a market for so-posed artistic games in similar kinds of people who like "artistic" books, film and television. That is, people who like to think, be challenged. I'd say a lot of good adventure games are artistic- Myst is a great example. Mind you, anything that requires thought usually isn't big with today's core gamer market, the 10-30 year old American male. They just wanna have fun, and that's fine. As the video game generation gets old, I think more of these so-called "artistic" games will come out, be popular and gain acceptance by the larger community. As the generation that is 6-13 years old now grows old and becomes bored with mindless shooters of all shapes and sizes, they will bring the "artistic" game to the level beyond my generation, the generation that grew up with Sega Master System, NES and Genesis. I don't doubt this one bit.

Hell, there will probably even be a genre, "arty games" or something. But I imagine a lot of those will be lame, just like most "art films." While there are a lot of good arty films in other genres, anything that seems to bill itself as art off the bat seems to have something to prove in a silly way. At least to me. *shrug*

--

Working toward a usable PDA environment in the spirit of Newton OS: Dynapad
Re:who ... cares.... by YOU+LIKEWISE+FAIL+IT · 2004-07-12 15:47 · Score: 1

It was quite popular, but not in all regions. European copies, for example, were rare as hens teeth. I would really like to see them finish off the Shenmue series ( it was supposed to be, what, 5-6 games? ), but each one cost so much, and sales on the XBox port of Shenmue 2 were dissapointing, so I don't know if they'll ever see the light of day.

Still, worth checking out, in my opinion. One for the armchair martial artist.

--
One god, one market, one truth, one consumer.
Re:who ... cares.... by YOU+LIKEWISE+FAIL+IT · 2004-07-12 15:49 · Score: 1

Ever heard the joke about the trick-or-treater who dressed as a serial killer? The punchline was that he dressed the same as the everyone else, because serial killers can be anyone.
Ah, that's awesome - and much easier than a "Frank" costume! Well, I'm set for October now.
YLFI

--
One god, one market, one truth, one consumer.
Re:who ... cares.... by Chasuk · 2004-07-12 15:53 · Score: 1

I'm sorry that you were moderated down here; I honestly can't see any reason for it.

Especially the difference between how lesbians are treated verus how gays are treated in the media in general

Agreed. Lesbians make (most) hetero men horny, unless those lesbians are dykes, so they have a far higher degree of acceptance than gay males.

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Neopets - the best free game on the Int
Re:who ... cares.... by ottothecow · 2004-07-12 17:23 · Score: 1

NWN wont let you be gay.
You cant make yourself a sexy elf maiden and then go visit the female prostitutes. You also cant have sexual encounters outside of the brothel...so not true to D&D

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Bottles.
Re:who ... cares.... by DarthWufei · 2004-07-12 19:23 · Score: 2, Insightful

I love you, my fellow homosexual. Sometimes it bothers me when people come up tome and ask for fashion advice, or some other crazy stuff that I just plain don't know about. I also get too many questiosn of "Are you really gay?" after not being able to help them. It's quite sad. Anyways, on the issue of gays in video games. I think the Sims is the best example of what I want to see. I want to see a loving relationship between two characters, who are just like all the other polygon characters fromt he cover. They aren't gay from the start, but you form them to be that. Leave it up to the player, and if they do follow the gay route, don't make them into a stereotype. Just make them like everyone else. Hopefully future Sims games will allow you to focus more on how you character acts. In terms of being "straight acting", flamboyant, masculine, or feminine. I'd actually rather not see more gay characters until they're fully capable for the player to mold. You leave a lot less of a chance of getting such content to backfire.
Re:who ... cares.... by Firinne · 2004-07-13 03:20 · Score: 1

Lesbians have a higher degree of acceptance as long as you're talking about straight male porn, but that's about it. I can count the number of lesbians on network TV on, what, one finger? No fingers? Expand to cable, and you have a couple more, but not many. Compare this to "Will and Grace", where the gay male characters on that show make fun of lesbians, or "Queer Eye" where the gay males on that show make fun of lesbians. Now, I'm not offended by the good-natured ribbing given us by our brothers in the Community, but where's the equal time?

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-- "God, Root, what is difference?" - Pitr, "User Friendly"
Re:who ... cares.... by drinkypoo · 2004-07-13 04:04 · Score: 1

That's what I liked about the fact that same-sex couples in the sims can adopt. Really this is the only way to handle the issue that makes sense in a game though - People are complex creatures and it's not possible to say what effects result from having two female parents, a male and a female parent, or two male parents, but in the game there is clearly no effect (unless they code one in) so it's easier just to not disallow it, since there are no penalties.
I don't know much about special problems found in same-sex relationships WRT raising children, but my local school bookstore was selling a bunch of books and one of them was on homosexual couples raising kids, and I thought it would be interesting... Of course, I don't have time to read fiction for fun, let alone class source material.

--
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Re:who ... cares.... by Elwood+P+Dowd · 2004-07-13 20:06 · Score: 1

Since gays make up a small fraction of the audience, primarily gay-themed games will have a similar market to primarily gay themed movies. They will, by financial necessity, have smaller budgets, smaller scope and smaller development staff.

I hope you're trying to talk about the pragmatics of financial success in our extremely homophobic society. I assume that gay people most often watch primarily straight-themed movies. There's no reason to assume that our population will ignore good movies or videogames with gay characters.

Hell. The Wachowski bros have built their career by making a mainstream movie centered around lesbian characters and a mainstream movie centered around black characters (and they pitched Neo to Will Smith first). If the entertainment industry does it, and does it right, gay themes shouldn't limit their market at all.

--

There are no trails. There are no trees out here.

Morrowind by yoyhed · 2004-07-12 08:04 · Score: 4, Informative

In Morrowind (2002), Crassius Curio, in one instance, demands you give him a kiss for him to give you what you need, and another instance, demands you remove all your clothing (and you actually have to go into your inventory and remove everything you're wearing).

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WHO NEEDS SHIFT WHEN YOU HAVE CAPSLOCK/ DAMN1

Re:Morrowind by Anonymous Coward · 2004-07-12 08:29 · Score: 2, Interesting

That was a dialogue tree for female characters. It turned out to be a bug, as evidenced by some digging around in the resources that turned up an unused dialogue tree that should have been applied for male characters.
Re:Morrowind by kannibal_klown · 2004-07-12 11:45 · Score: 1

Though Deus Ex 2: Invisible War sucked ass, there was one funny moment in it.

You had to get into a penthouse in a classy hotel. The obvious way was to sneak in and "pick" the locks.

The second was was to "pick up" some male ambassador and agree to become his "chamber boy" or something like that; I think there was another layer, like you had to meet his old boyfriend of something. But in the end, you got the key to the apartment.

While it was a chuckle, it was so worthless since breaking into the penthouse was very easy and required little skill / tools.

Why? by JavaLord · 2004-07-12 08:06 · Score: 5, Insightful

The article raises a few interesting questions, such as 'how much longer until an explicitly 'gay' game comes out?',

How about when a game comes out that has a story where the character is gay, and the characters sexuality adds something to the storyline? I'm sure it won't end up being like that, some game developer will do it just to be 'edgy' and it probably will have no bearing on the game whatsoever.

but oddly focuses on male homosexual relationships,

Of course, because they are more shocking/disturb more people.

claiming them to be a way to entice female players;

Not....likely. It's more likely that you can entice male players with female homosexuals.

and mentions that while the main purveyors of homosexual content in games are Japanese companies like Squaresoft and NEC

Of course, because their culture is more open (or depraved, depending on your point of view) when it comes to sex.

and Will Wright's The Sims not balking at same-sex couples adopting a child character."

Why not, it's only someone else they can market the Sims to. Personally I hope when the first "gay" character comes out of the closet it actually has something to do with the storyline of the game, rather than it be just window dressing.

This article is way behind the times. I play CS and all I ever here are people telling each other how gay they are. Maybe that is what all those terrorists and CT's are fighting over. It's all pent up homoerotic sexual frustration.

Re:Why? by cephyn · 2004-07-12 08:11 · Score: 5, Informative

In an american context you're right, but in Japan, homosexual male relationships do indeed entice female players. Just look at anime and manga geared towards the femenine audience, almost all will have pretty-boy characters, many of them engaged in at the very least flirtatious behavior with other male characters. I agree that's unlikely to draw American females, but in Japan its a proven tactic.

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Moo.
Re:Why? by Elwood+P+Dowd · 2004-07-12 08:15 · Score: 2, Insightful

Personally I hope when the first "gay" character comes out of the closet it actually has something to do with the storyline of the game, rather than it be just window dressing.

Personally, I don't. Just as a character being straight doesn't need to have anything to do with the plot of a game, a character being gay doesn't either.

In regards to the "how much longer" question, I thought Solid Snake seemed pretty fruity. Maybe that was just my fantasy life getting out of control.

--

There are no trails. There are no trees out here.
Re:Why? by david.given · 2004-07-12 08:29 · Score: 5, Interesting

How about when a game comes out that has a story where the character is gay, and the characters sexuality adds something to the storyline? I'm sure it won't end up being like that, some game developer will do it just to be 'edgy' and it probably will have no bearing on the game whatsoever.
You may be interested in Graham Nelson's interactive fiction game, Jigsaw (reckoned to be one of the best text adventures ever written).
There are two main characters, working against each other: White, you is the player character; and Black, the major NPC. Black is trying to change history, and you are trying to prevent it. Mostly.
One of the major plot elements is that you and Black fall in love. This makes things a little complicated, as you can imagine, and is extremely significant to the storyline.
However, the interesting thing is that Jigsaw never mentions what sex you and Black are. Clever wording means that the text never even uses pronouns to refer to the two of you. All you know is that you find Black highly attractive. This means that you're free to project any sex you like onto the two characters. Different players will have different mental images; some reviewers saw White and Black as both being male, more tended to see them as being a heterosexual couple, of various combinations. (If you're at all interested, I saw White as being female and Black as being male.) It's a remarkable piece of work.
(Must try replaying it... I never finished it the last time I tried; it is fiendishly hard.)
Re:Why? by Pluvius · 2004-07-12 08:43 · Score: 1

That's not an example of sexual orientation adding something to the storyline; it's an example of the author avoiding the issue of gender. Which isn't a bad idea in an interactive medium like video gaming.

Rob
Re:Why? by Anonymous Coward · 2004-07-12 08:59 · Score: 0

Some examples of gays or homoerotica appealing to a female audience in the USA:

Queer as Folk
Queer Eye for the Straight Guy
Anne Rice's novels, including the vampire series, Cry to Heaven, etc.
Mercedes Lackey's fantasy fiction.

As for female homosexuality in media/games, I think most males are more into "girl on girl" (ala porn), rather than "lesbians" ala Rosie or Ellen.
Re:Why? by c · 2004-07-12 09:04 · Score: 1

It's worth pointing out that homosexual characters and themes abound in North American science fiction literature. Off the top of my head, Jeter's "Bad Voltage" (from early 80's), Scott's "Trouble and Her Friends"... Darn, if I was in my library I know I could read off a dozen or more. If a game developer's been reading sci-fi most of his/her life, gay characters wouldn't be such a strange concept.

Dunno about the marketing folks.

c.

--
Log in or piss off.
Re:Why? by Anonymous Coward · 2004-07-12 10:45 · Score: 0

claiming them to be a way to entice female players;

Not....likely. It's more likely that you can entice male players with female homosexuals.

Awesome, you quote the summary without even reading the article and get modded up. Let me help you out a little, fuckbag: They aren't talking about the USA.

"In Japan, homosexual pairings--particularly those between men--are a way to entice the female youth demographic."
Re:Why? by May+Kasahara · 2004-07-12 11:48 · Score: 1

I agree that's unlikely to draw American females, but in Japan its a proven tactic.
I don't know. There's a pretty strong contingent of American female gamers who are into the bishounen boylove (I can direct you to numerous fansites, fanfics, and whatnot as proof). Probably not as many as there are in Japan, but still a sizable number.
Re:Why? by rsadelle · 2004-07-12 11:50 · Score: 2, Informative

Ever hear of slash? Slash is to western fandom as yaoi (mentioned in TFA) is to Japanese fandoms, and it's very definitely a woman dominated, woman oriented piece of fandom. Granted, we're a relatively small demographic in the larger scale of things, but that doesn't mean we don't exist. The last slash con I went to even had a panel specifically directed at getting women's ideas of what they want to see in mainstream gay porn.
Re:Why? by cephyn · 2004-07-12 11:51 · Score: 1

well i guarantee you its not as big as Japan. Sizable number is a vague statement. I agree its definitely a non-zero number (I've known a few gals myself who are into it) but I don't think its anywhere near the size of the Japanese contingent, by any metric you can think of.

--% of females age x to y
--% of females who play, or are interested in playing, games
--% of gaming community
--on and on.

Is the community growing? Yes! I've seen it grow a lot in the past 5 years especially -- but I'd still consider it a VERY underground segment of the gaming, anime, and manga communities in the US.

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Moo.
Re:Why? by cephyn · 2004-07-12 11:54 · Score: 1

I have heard of it. I never meant to characterize the US population as zero, but only to point out that as a marketing component, boylove themes are much more common for female audiences than here in the US. I think its growing here, but its still nowhere near the popularity level of Japan, and I would be surprised if it approached that kind of popularity anytime soon in the US.

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Moo.
Re:Why? by DaphneDiane · 2004-07-12 12:56 · Score: 1

claiming them to be a way to entice female players;

Not....likely...

I wouldn't be so sure of that. A lot of the other girls I know enjoy such stories/games. Japan has yaoi, America has slash. (IE Kirk / Spock). Actually that gives a whole new meaning to the name of this website...
Re:Why? by YOU+LIKEWISE+FAIL+IT · 2004-07-12 15:57 · Score: 1

Gender projection is a wonderful trait to exploit in text adventures - my alltime favourite short adventure[1], avoids explicitly gendering the player until the final scene. While it's not as interesting as what you've just outlined, it's a step in the right direction. I projected a male persona onto the adventurer, but other people who have played it report varying conclusions.
YLFI
[1] - Rot13 for spoiler: "Cnenqr"

--
One god, one market, one truth, one consumer.
Re:Why? by Anonymous Coward · 2004-07-13 01:26 · Score: 0

idiot, go read the article summary where they are talknig about US content vs Japanese content. Go jerk off to DragonGay Z you crosseyed dildo fucking fanboi

Are you gay? by Cthefuture · 2004-07-12 08:12 · Score: 0, Offtopic

"Gay? I wish!"

-- Troy McClure

--
The ratio of people to cake is too big

Re:Are you gay? by Anonymous Coward · 2004-07-13 05:49 · Score: 0

No Simpsons fans on Slashdot, eh?

yeah great by Anonymous Coward · 2004-07-12 08:13 · Score: 0

'Cause there's just not enough gayness in popular culture.

guess richard dreyfus probably approves...

About FF7... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-07-12 08:14 · Score: 2, Funny

Of course Cloud is gay! He spurned Aeris for a date with Barret! It's like turning down Jessica Alba for Mr. T! I mean, like WTF?

Re:About FF7... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-07-12 08:50 · Score: 0

haha you failed it then!

I made out with a date with Tifa. How do you like them apples biotch? I'll take here 44EE any day.
Re:About FF7... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-07-12 18:26 · Score: 0

McCloud is GAY?

Well, I guess he was kind of different. Wearing cowboy clothes in New York...who did he think he was, one of them Village People?

Please don't be an event by NanoGator · 2004-07-12 08:16 · Score: 3, Interesting

" The article raises a few interesting questions, such as 'how much longer until an explicitly 'gay' game comes out?"

I can't wait for the day when a new 'group' can be represented in video games on tv without making an event out of it. If I'm playing a game, and it turns out a character is gay or whatever, cool, no prob with that. As a matter of fact, that made GTA3 kind of funny. But if I'm supposed to run out and buy a game BECAUSE it's revolutionary for putting a group of people in a spotlight.. then, geez, what's the point? Am I supposed to buy this game to prove I'm not a bigot?

Eh sorry for the rant. I just have trouble imaginging that this isn't offensive to gays. In an effort to prove they're not any different from anybody else, they're made out to be uber special in some grand glorious event. It reminds me of that episode of South Park where the nurse had a fetus on her face.

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"Derp de derp."

Re:Please don't be an event by cephyn · 2004-07-12 08:21 · Score: 2, Insightful

Hey I totally agree with you, but its just not going to happen until EVERYONE sees [group x] as just regular people too.

I'd only buy the game because its good, not because of its social value (if the game was crap, but had a [group x] character, you're right, so what?) but when a game is good and it treats the character of [group x] just like any other character, mission accomplished in my mind.

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Moo.
Re:Please don't be an event by WormholeFiend · 2004-07-12 08:32 · Score: 4, Insightful

In an effort to prove they're not any different from anybody else, they're made out to be uber special in some grand glorious event.

You mean like Gay Pride street parades?
Re:Please don't be an event by NanoGator · 2004-07-12 08:38 · Score: 1

"You mean like Gay Pride street parades?"

It's a little different when a huge group of them voluntarily gets together, but I get your point.

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"Derp de derp."
Re:Please don't be an event by cephyn · 2004-07-12 08:39 · Score: 3, Insightful

Or St Patricks Day parades for the Irish? Or maybe you'd like to tell African-Americans not to have Black History Month Parades or Civil Rights marches because they shouldn't make an event out of trying to prove they're just like everyone else.

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Moo.
Re:Please don't be an event by Apreche · 2004-07-12 08:58 · Score: 1

but its just not going to happen until EVERYONE sees [group x] as just regular people too.

Um, give up now then. First of all, some people are racist/sexist/*ist and wont be different no matter what you do. Second of all, people have a right to be *ist if they want. I'm not, I believe people are people and that's that, and I think that is the right way to be. However, I also believe in freedom. So if you want to believe that gays shouldn't be, you go believing that. And as long as you don't actually hurt anyone else I have no problem.

On the issue of the fanfare I think it works like this. People strive to be accepted in society. They want to stay in line and conform. I think that many people, deep inside, have a *ist feeling. Like the people who are afraid of black people they meet on the street. They might not be KKK material, but they have a feeling that is instilled inside them for whatever reason. So these people in their mind, think, logically and in-line with society that race, gender and sexual orientation to not determine the good or bad of a person. But because they have that feeling inside they need to proclaim loudly "look at me I'm not *ist!".

It's like when someone accuses you of doing something that you did and you try to lie your way out of it. You have this need to claim very loudly that you didn't do it. Whether you did it or not you have a small amount of guilt in you. To rid of this guilt you need to make sure other people know for sure that you are innocent.

People who are actually innocent just brush it off. People who are actually *ist will tell it to your face and say "yeah, what of it?" But most people have a very slight tendency to feel uncomfortable regarding social issues like this. And since in their minds they conform with society in being against *ism, they must proclalim loudly their beliefs. Just like all the TV/Radio stations who need to be sure to specifically wish happy every holiday from every religeon and culture on the earth.

Get over it. Things are the way things are and that's that.

--
The GeekNights podcast is going strong. Listen!
Re:Please don't be an event by cephyn · 2004-07-12 09:07 · Score: 1

And anyway, now that I think about it, why shouldn't it be an event? Imagine you're a certain type of person that has never, or almost never, seen a positive representation of yourself in popular media. Why shouldn't you be excited that now there is?

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Moo.
Re:Please don't be an event by jeeryg_flashaccess · 2004-07-12 09:28 · Score: 1

my faith in humanity has been restored. Thank you for your insightful comentary.

What you mentioned really is the heart of the matter. Just make a damn game, let the player discover the plot, meet the characters, and enjoy the game.

I live in Seattle, sometimes my groceries are bagged by somebody who is obviously gay. I don't grab the announcement microphone and declare that I have just met a homosexual. It's not that big of a deal.

Of course if gay nude beach volleyball comes out that will probably make headlines :)

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Life is like pants... fit in or you don't fit in.
Re:Please don't be an event by Anonymous Coward · 2004-07-12 12:00 · Score: 0

Really, you don't have a problem with racism unless it goes as far as violence? You would be okay with, say, a neighbor who loudly and frequently complains about how the black family across the street is ruining his property value? What message do you think your tolerance of that kind of speech might send to that family, and to everyone else on your block?

Freedom is a wonderful thing to defend, but do not mistake a denial of obligation to your community for love of liberty. Racism, sexism, and homophobia need to be vocally denounced wherever they appear.
Re:Please don't be an event by Finuvir · 2004-07-12 14:33 · Score: 1

He didn't say violence, he said 'hurt'. I would classify "loudly and frequently complain[ing] about how the black family across the street is ruining [...] property value" as hurt. That's not to say that I agree that it's okay unless someone's hurt. I don't think anyone is right to be racist (or "*ist") even if they never hurt anyone.

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Why is anything anything?
Re:Please don't be an event by fuzzybunny · 2004-07-14 00:10 · Score: 1

I hardly think the St. Paddy's day parade sets out to prove the Irish are just like everyone else.

In fact, I think you're almost spectacularly missing the point off making a pastime out of getting hammered on green beer. Erin go bragh! :)

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Cole's Law: Thinly sliced cabbage

Re:Put gays in games... by cephyn · 2004-07-12 08:17 · Score: 1

I wasn't aware that buffy and angel and the like were african-american shows....

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Moo.

Well... by Per+Wigren · 2004-07-12 08:29 · Score: 5, Interesting

I'm openly bisexual myself and I just hate it when they make a big thing out of homo/bi/trans sexuality, like it's supposed to be sensational or chocking or something.. Get over it, it's no big deal..

That said, I love seeing gay love (I'm not talking about sex this time) in movies, when it just happens and they don't make a big thing out of it.. It's unfortunatly very rare in the westen world, but in asian movies (at least japanese and korean) you sometimes see gay/lesbian lovers and it's just there as a part of the plot and they don't focus on it anymore than they would have done with a straight couple. Beautiful!

I'd really love to see a fun lovestory adventuregame like Monkey Island but where Elaine is a guy (or even better, a transsexual) but they just ARE without making it a "gay-game"...

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My other account has a 3-digit UID.

Re:Well... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-07-12 08:48 · Score: 0

bisexual == greedy, just pick one!
Re:Well... by cephyn · 2004-07-12 09:48 · Score: 3, Insightful

Of course, its normal and common over there, so of course they dont make a big deal about it. Here, its not like that. Once a big deal is made, it will be normal and not a big deal after. Just look at civil rights for a historical context. A big deal was made when women fought for, and won, the right to vote for the first time. Now, its not a big deal, its normal for women to vote. What would be a big deal is if you say, lowered the voting age to 16 or something like that.

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Moo.
Re:Well... by Per+Wigren · 2004-07-12 09:59 · Score: 1

Sure, gay rights is a big and important political question right now because gay people are being politically opressed but homosexuality in itself is not a big thing, that's what I meant.

--
My other account has a 3-digit UID.
Re:Well... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-07-12 12:04 · Score: 3, Funny

Hi, Anonymous Coward here again. I'd like to apologise for my comments in the above post.

It's true; the only reason I made those comments was because my repressed homosexuality made me uncomfortable, but now I've come to accept it.

Jeez, what an asshole I used to be. Please forgive me.
Re:Well... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-07-12 20:10 · Score: 0

What's actually "normal and common over there" is the fact that the media have far more to rebel against and are more freely allowed to do so, not homosexuality itself. Liberal thought is freely available in all media, but this in no way reflects what the public as a whole believes. Basically, if all you know comes from movies, TV, comics, etc., you are getting a warped, non-realistic view of common perceptions in these nations. This comes from having very loose government regulation over the media.

In reality, Japan and Korea are hardly the homosexual havens you think they are. Homophobia is dominant across both nations, particularly in Korea, which is the most Confucianist nation on the planet. Yaoi and other deviant media exist to fulfill the fantasies of the homosexual minority and the sexually curious (which does _not_ translate to sexually open), but again, the availability of such media only points to increased marketability by way of less government interference, not some inflated gay population.
Re:Well... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-07-13 03:42 · Score: 0

Oops AIDs killed.. What an asshole that used to be
Re:Well... by jim3e8 · 2004-07-13 11:44 · Score: 1

In Ultima 6, 7 and 7-1/2 your male or female character can engage in some optional sexual encounters, which are not limited by your gender. It's not integral to gameplay, but neither is it much remarked upon by the game.

Re:Put gays in games... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-07-12 08:29 · Score: 0

And allow me to capture them, imprison them, torture them, and kill them.

I'd buy it. :)

I'm joking, you bastards, don't mod me as flamebait. I'm just sick of Queer Eye this and Will and Grace that and everything gay is being shoved down the mainsteam into my home. I'm sick of it. That's why there is the WB and BET, for african american shows. Put these 'gay' shows on the 'gay' channel (Pick one, I don't care which) so I can just not watch that channel. But don't start piece-mealing gay themes into my video games cuz I won't buy it. Design and market the games to the people that will buy them.

I see they modded me flamebait anyways... oh well :)

True, Angel and Buffy aren't African-American shows, but the WB is well-known to contain a majority of shows that cater to that audience.

I watch Comedy Central, cuz I like comedy. I watch Cartoon Network, because I like cartoons. Put the correctly themed product to the correct audience. I.E. don't put a gay person in Grand Theft Auto, or Gran Turismo, or Doom 3. It's not what is expected/wanted.

Try XBL! by Anonymous Coward · 2004-07-12 08:33 · Score: 5, Funny

Gosh, the author obviously hasn't played Xbox Live very much. If I'm to believe what everyone I've played against says, nearly everyone on XBL is gay.

Re:Put gays in games... by Cornflake917 · 2004-07-12 08:34 · Score: 1

Is Bravo even mainstream? I've heard about Queer Eye for the longest time. And this only because South Park had an episode on it. But I didn't even see the show until this last weekend. And I only caught a few minutes of it.

The only way I can imagine homosexuality being "shoved down mainstream" is if you watch TV all the damn time or you watch Bravo all the damn time (who the hell watches Bravo besides for Celebrity Poker?) Or maybe you are unable to push a button on your remote control to change the channel when something "gay" comes on.

You have every right to be a homophobe. But that doesn't mean that we should force shows with themes you are incapable of accepting/understanding to a channel that you can skip (in order to continue your ignorance).

--
Abaddon: An Xbox 360 Indie game

Re:Put gays in games... by cephyn · 2004-07-12 08:42 · Score: 1

not expected or wanted...by you. are you sure you speak for the entire audience of those games?

and of course there won't be a gay character in Gran Turismo...unless you know how to tell the sexual orientation of a car.

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Moo.

Re:Put gays in games... by Neo.Anderson · 2004-07-12 08:45 · Score: 1

hehe I would love a flamboyantly gay character as the lead in doom3. but then that wouldn't really be for the sake of story so much as the comedic antics associated with overly flamboyant homosexuality in america....but would still be hilarious...kinda like replacing warcraft sounds with sweatin' to the oldies clips

Who Has Time? by blunte · 2004-07-12 08:45 · Score: 0, Flamebait

Who has time for gay video games when there are so many gay pride marches to attend!

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.sigs are for post^Hers.

Re:Put gays in games... by MalaclypseTheYounger · 2004-07-12 08:45 · Score: 1

Well in European languages cars have masculine/feminine meanings (La voiture, etc). They could mix it up a bit. :)

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Check out the best P2P sharing website: MEDIACHEST.COM

As someone from Amsterdam, bleeeeeeeeh by SmallFurryCreature · 2004-07-12 08:45 · Score: 2, Insightful

From what little I know from japan from the media (and how much does anyone of us really know about the world except through the media) they are even more homophobic then Americans. It is just that there is one segment of the entertainment media that makes money off selling stories about guys in love with guys. Why? Ask a yaoi reading japanese girl :P then ask her for her phone number and take an upskirt photo (perhaps that is the reason. It has been suggested that to women gay men are safe. A gay man will not harress, rape or peek at them.) As a guy I like some ecchi anime but some of it crosses the line where you start to wonder when the girl will just punch the guys teeth out.

Anyway that is my theory about yaoi.

In most games where relationships take a role I don't like it when I am forced to "only" take the approved hetero option. The sims was a very welcome exception. I can tolerate that the love interest in Planescape torment are only girls, I am a guy with strong hetero feelings (translation: Oooh bouncies!!!!!) but I can imagine that a hetero female or gay male or gay female wants to have a wider choice then angel succubus and boiling devil girl.

Same with the otherwise excellent KOTOR. Why can't I whoo balista with a female char eh? (and people that choose to finding out that the mandolorians were like the spartans eh?)

As someone whose family was closely affected by the holocaust I am extremely nervous about people that suggest that certain life styles are less worthy. You just know that people that say gay people should have lesser rights then hetero's want to say the same thing about differently colored people or people with different religions.

So good luck to The sims 2, a courageos decision if they really leave it in in the current american climate. Peter Molyneux if you finally allow me to play a lesbian (and anyone who wants to a gay) paladin I might even forgive you for Black & White. (note it got to be a love story not toee was not a love story)

As to the gamespot story, well it is clear its author still needs to learn a thing or two about homosexuality. Picking out high-heels and lipstick for your female avatar doesn't make you gay. If anything picking a male character and making his looks just right and hunky makes you gay. Creating a sweet hot perky female avatar just makes you pervert. When gay rights have been achieved world wide the human race will have made a step forward but when the rights of perverts have been regonized we will have arived at nirvana. Oh well back to getting balista to play the b-side. (as a side note do female players of KOTOR like the way the male comes on to their character? As the male I played the "50's" movie banter character constantly teasing balista but playing as a female I just found him tiresome, is that my testosterone talking or does the estrogene crowd feel the same?)

--

MMO Quests are like orgasms:

You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.

Re:As someone from Amsterdam, bleeeeeeeeh by Anonymous Coward · 2004-07-12 08:58 · Score: 0

Gay/lez Paladin never! However, a homosexual druid would prob. make sense.
Re:As someone from Amsterdam, bleeeeeeeeh by Planesdragon · 2004-07-12 11:00 · Score: 2, Insightful

Same with the otherwise excellent KOTOR. Why can't I whoo balista with a female char eh?

I'd have to hazard a guess that balista simply isn't attracted to women. If the designers were really clever, they'd have a few male charcters that can't woo her either, on account of her not liking them.

Oh, and most of your post is very close to trollish. While I agree that homosexuals deserve a plethora of rights, it's wrongheaded to think that there are no "lifestyles" deserving of scorn. Serial killers and abusive rapists are two that come easily to mind as very much scorn-worthy.

There are lots of reasoned and intelligent arguments for gay marriage and accepted homosexuality--and the world will not accept either of those things until their proponents raise their level of discorse from ill-formed arguments and ad hominem atacks.

(Ill-formed argument: an argument not thought through. For example, if you say "it should be enough that they love each other" as your argument for gay marriage, then by the same token incest, polyamory, and possibly even pedophilla are all worhty--with the same argument. [My preferred argument for gay marriage is "if we allow a sexual union to happen legally, we should have a mechanism to give it legal standing." Nice and keeps out incest & pedophillia, too.])

(The ad hominem attacks I'm referring to is the unfortunate tendancy to call someone who is opposed to gay rights a "homophobe." Mental disorders aside, there are at least two logical if not entirely convincing arguments against homosexuality that have nothing to do with fear. [ask me and I'll relate them.])
Re:As someone from Amsterdam, bleeeeeeeeh by magefile · 2004-07-13 03:24 · Score: 1

What are these logical arguments? I haven't heard any logical arguments.
Re:As someone from Amsterdam, bleeeeeeeeh by Filmwatcher888 · 2004-07-13 03:32 · Score: 1

Please, don't leave us breatheless with anticipation...
Enlighten us.

Will Wright by Anonymous Coward · 2004-07-12 08:47 · Score: 0

Is it really suprising his game includes homosexual elements? Doesn't he fly the pink flag at home?

Re:Put gays in games... by Boglin · 2004-07-12 08:49 · Score: 1

unless you know how to tell the sexual orientation of a car

And thank you for the disturbing mental images of Herbie, The Love Bug

That only happens if you are female or you played by SmallFurryCreature · 2004-07-12 08:51 · Score: 5, Insightful

That only happens if you are female or you played with a patch (or perhaps you had a bug (he didn't ask my male char)) but morrowind was hetero. Meaning females and males had different love interests. Of course since morrowind was designed to be easily patched by users this was quickly altered so that you could do all the love stories regardless of your characters sex.

Wich might suggest that the game playing audience is a lot more ready for this then the game makers or the game reviewers or the game raters.

In morrowind when you where naked you were still in your undies. In a prequel I think when you where naked you really where naked. This was removed to appease goverment regulators in the USofC(ensorship).

--

MMO Quests are like orgasms:

You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.

Re:Put gays in games... by Pluvius · 2004-07-12 08:56 · Score: 4, Insightful

I have a problem with all the "gay shows" on TV now-a-days not because they have gay characters, but because of how the gay characters are portrayed as having that be their only character trait. It's like homosexuality is a gimmick that executives use in order to get higher ratings.

Anybody remember Ellen DeGeneres' old self-titled sitcom? It was actually pretty funny until Ellen came out of the closet, then every episode became centered around how gay she was. All of the humor was gone and the show got canceled pretty quickly after.

Rob

Re:Put gays in games... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-07-12 09:00 · Score: 0

God instructs us to love all but that doesn't mean I have to allow my children to be exposed to men fucking other men in the ass and then licking the shit off of each other's dicks.

You can't prove there even is a god, so stop trying to justify your hatreds on one. Get over yourself you self-indulgent asshole.

As for your other point: I've never engaged in anal sex, and I don't plan to. I find it hard to believe that anyone doing so would lick shit. I'm sure most people would clean themseleves off or something. Don't be insane. If all gay couples were regularly doing that they probably wouldn't live very long.

Re:Put gays in games... by Cornflake917 · 2004-07-12 09:05 · Score: 1

When you make a large angry post like that. It's obvious that you are afraid of and don't understand homosexuality. "Homophobe" maybe a label, but it's describes you and the parent ALOT more than the word "liberal" describes me.

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Abaddon: An Xbox 360 Indie game

Re:Put gays in games... by th3space · 2004-07-12 09:15 · Score: 1

And really, you don't have to be engaging in homosexuality to participate in anal sex...straights do it, too. And yes, there is cleaning involved after the fact...I don't see the point in bothering to anon-cow myself on this topic, either.

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"How like you to drag your keyboard to a gun fight." - Aaron Bedard (BANE)

Re:Put gays in games... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-07-12 09:20 · Score: 0

I'm sure you have no problem watching your lesbian porn as your wife is out shopping.

Give me a break. Heterosexual couples have anal sex too. Is that how far your small little brain can go? Gay=anal sex + poop licking. I feel sorry for your kids having to grow up with such a closed minded person. Who in their freaking right mind would want to be gay in a society full of you assholes?

Cornflake wasn't crying about labels. You bring it up and become a total hypcorite by crying about labels yourself. If they are so horrible, then maybe you shouldn't throw the out too, huh? But your small little mind can't figure that out yet.

You see, we are at a time similar to that of slavery. People were beginning to realize slavery was wrong then, people are beginning to realize attacking people based on their sexual preference is wrong too. By far, the bible has more in that condones slavery than condemns homosexuality. I don't see you fighting for slaves. You Christians are such an embarassment to real Christians, you take some far spread out quotes in the bible to force your own views on people. And sadly, you are too stupid to realize it.

I hope you are old, because the future is tolerance. Soon, you bigots will die off and the world will be filled with a lot less hatred. You are no better than terrorists, spreading your hate and pain. I don't know how you can live with yourselves, but have fun voting for Bush to screw up the America for four more year.

Re:Put gays in games... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-07-12 09:23 · Score: 1, Insightful

Your constant focus on the act of homosexual anal intercourse leads me to belive that you are probably filled with hate for one reason: You secretly fantisize about anal sex (perhaps gay, perhaps straight), and yet you think it is a sin, and only by forcing yourself to hate it, can you keep yourself from engaging in it.

Why else do you hate the act rather than the people? Do you hate straight people who engage in anal sex? How about straight people that engage in oral sex?

Re:Put gays in games... by Cornflake917 · 2004-07-12 09:28 · Score: 2, Funny

The reason I don't answer your points because doing so would be like trying to explain something like the birds and the bess or the Theory of relativity to a very young child. It would take too long and be very frustrating.

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Abaddon: An Xbox 360 Indie game

Hasn't Homosexuality been Common in Video Games? by dancingmad · 2004-07-12 09:30 · Score: 0, Flamebait

Wait, what about Mario and Luigi? Haven't they been around for a while? ;)

Let's not even mention Toad...

--
"There is no time, sir, at which ties do not matter," Jeeves, (Jeeves and the Impending Doom)

Re:Put gays in games... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-07-12 09:33 · Score: 0

You made points?

You must have some pretty low standards when it come to judging your own work, so let me bring my response it down to your level:

You is wrong cuz you U is a poopie H3d

If I used to many big words let me know, I would be glad to clarify it for you. Thanks

The AC is the only true non-Karma Whore

Homosexuality in Japanese games... by dancingmad · 2004-07-12 09:38 · Score: 2, Insightful

...comes from the presence of it in Japanese culture. The Japanese are much more open about sexuality on the entertainment level than Americans are: Janet Jackson shows one so so breast and the country freaks out. One of the most popular doramas (an hour long sitcom / drama) in the last few years was GTO (based on anime and manga), which should characters watching hardcore porno (and showed the porn). That sexuality has been a part of Japanese culture since the explicit Tale of Genji and later explicit wood block prints.

This extends to homosexuality; it's no secrect that priests and samurai often performed homosexual acts. Beat Takeshi Kitano was in a film about this, Gohatto, which presented members of the Shinsengumi as homosexual.

As mentioned Yuri and Yayoi are popular manga genres exploring lesbian and gay themes respectively. Even other popular media can have references to it; I remember in Final Fantasy VII Cloud getting his HP restored after visiting a brothel and being fapped (nothing is shown) by another guy. A lot of it can be done jokingly.

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"There is no time, sir, at which ties do not matter," Jeeves, (Jeeves and the Impending Doom)

Re:Homosexuality in Japanese games... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-07-12 12:49 · Score: 0

...comes from the presence of it in Japanese culture. The Japanese are much more open about sexuality on the entertainment level than Americans are
One guy fucking another guy's asshole is NOT, in any civilized nation, "sexy". It's disgusting sick deviant behavior. I'd rather watch a horse fuck a woman than two guys go at it. The thought of it makes me want to vomit.
Re:Homosexuality in Japanese games... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-07-12 21:33 · Score: 0

That's 'cause watching a horse fuck a woman is sooooo civilized.
Re:Homosexuality in Japanese games... by Pendersempai · 2004-07-13 03:58 · Score: 1

Right, whatever. And the KKK members would rather watch a horse with a white woman than a black man, and the neo-Nazis would rather watch a horse with a Christian woman than a Jewish man, and... etc.

You're just another tiresome bigot. Eventually your angry kind will die out or be ostracized and the world will be a lot better off for it. Go away.

if you want to be serious by superpulpsicle · 2004-07-12 09:58 · Score: 1, Troll

There are many movies and games that had hidden gay characters. For example, Tom Cruise plays a homosexual character in top gun the movie. There are clues everywhere. Though they made it so that it was hidden / acceptable in the 80s.

Other homosexual game characters include Don Flamingo in Mike Tyson's punchout. Many more.

Re:if you want to be serious by Anonymous Coward · 2004-07-13 13:36 · Score: 0

"Carmen my love! I dance so sweet for you!" - Don Flamenco

Nope, doesn't sound gay, especailly seeing Seanbaby's photoshopped version.

Re:Put gays in games... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-07-12 10:05 · Score: 0

On all of Slashdot, you, sir, are the least deserving of his own user name.

How often does it matter? by Belgand · 2004-07-12 10:24 · Score: 1

The problem is that in many games it really isn't a relevant issue. Often this becomes more of an issue in role-playing games or other games where the storyline may involve romantic subplots and such, but much of the time it's irrelevant.

Quite frankly I think that this is probably the preferable option as well. It's far more realistic whereas making a character explicitly homosexual would make that a central aspect of the character. Does it matter whether the commandos in Contra were homosexual or heterosexual? It just isn't an issue as far as the game is concerned and either option would be equally acceptable. The majority of the population, however, simply assumes that anyone not explicitly stated to be homosexual is heterosexual.

Queer Eye by NedR · 2004-07-12 10:26 · Score: 2

For the most part, the article was relatively interesting, but it touched on one small pet peeve of mine. That is to say, it is absolutely necessary to mention Queer Eye for the Straight Guy in every single public discussion of homosexuality in the media? It seemed out of place in the article, which just made it irritating.

Re:That only happens if you are female or you play by Ayaress · 2004-07-12 10:34 · Score: 1

What version do you happen to be playing? I've had the same thing happen with and without the patches, and eventually went into the editor and changed the dialog myself to fix it (got a bit tired of Uncle Crassius calling me "sweetie pie" every time I did a quest). I don't have the GotY edition, so maybe its fixed in that, but I do have Tribunal, Bloodmoon, and the latests patches, and I've gotten the wrong dialog tree ever since the game came out.

Re:Put gays in games... by CVaneg · 2004-07-12 10:38 · Score: 1

I just can't believe that. You mean to tell me that there are shallow characters on TV who lack any sense of nuance? That's just crazy talk.

Re:Hasn't Homosexuality been Common in Video Games by Ayaress · 2004-07-12 10:39 · Score: 1

Mario wasn't gay. He had several women over the years, most particularly Princess Toadstool and whoever that girl in Donkey Kong was.

The jury's still out on Luigi, but Toad was about as straight as Richard Simmons.

Hey, what about the pioneering character in this by foidulus · 2004-07-12 10:45 · Score: 1

field? The writeup makes no mention of Gary Fairy, the towel man in LSL 6! He was a pioneer, treat him as such!

Re:That only happens if you are female or you play by Anonymous Coward · 2004-07-12 11:19 · Score: 0

homophobe

stupid lameness filter

umm duh by shaitand · 2004-07-12 11:25 · Score: 1

"but oddly focuses on male homosexual relationships"

Probably because the largest audience for games at the moment is straight men and straight men are turned on by bi-sexual, lesbian, and straight women? Most straight men would not however be comfortable playing a game with a gay male theme.

Most women I've known on the other hand, just want there to be pics of naked studs as well as bimbos, and wouldn't be uncomfortable regardless?

Of course their answer might be different in a forum asking their opinion publically where they feel they "represent" the female view, as opposed to what they'll tell you one on one eating pizza and talking about life.

Mod parent up!!! by Anonymous Coward · 2004-07-12 11:26 · Score: 0

Put it through the roof while wearing angel wings and a see-through codpiece!

Because that's how you earn respect for your sick and twisted sexual practices, right? Start yourself a public butt-train and the world will see how wrong they were about you!

Star Trek: Elite Force by Jim+Hall · 2004-07-12 11:34 · Score: 1

I saw this in a game once. Anyone ever play the game Star Trek: Elite Force? It's a standard FPS, but they throw some cutscenes at you. The interesting thing was you could play as a male or female member of the Elite Force.

About halfway through the game, a female NPC hits on you in the ship's bar. I think this part of the script was written assuming you were playing the male character. My first time playing through as the female character, it was surprising for me when I realized that a female character was coming onto another female character in a videogame (and a Star Trek game, at that.)

Trekkie lesbian action. Cue the cheesy jazz music .. that's a video I'd like to watch. :-)

Re:Star Trek: Elite Force by Cyno01 · 2004-07-12 18:06 · Score: 1

They've had gays on star trek before. I remember quite a bit of that on voyager and no one made any kind of deal about it. Some in DS9 too, wasn't Garak gay? I remember him propositioning Worf in one episode...

--
"Sic Semper Tyrannosaurus Rex."

They're Already Here! by Deadguy2322 · 2004-07-12 11:55 · Score: 0

The Super Mario games are blatantly Gay! Just look at the mustaches, not to mention the very Penile-looking mushrooms!

--
Check out my foes list to see who is so retarded that they can't use the signature line!!!

Re:Put gays in games... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-07-12 13:00 · Score: 0

The reason I don't answer your points because doing so would be like trying to explain something like the birds and the bess or the Theory of relativity to a very young child. It would take too long and be very frustrating.

He/she does have a valid point. If it isn't deviant behavior then why are you avoiding the subject? Do you penetrate your partner's asshole during the course of your homosexual relations? Do you wash his penis before then sucking him off or do you like the taste of his feces?

Re:Put gays in games... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-07-12 13:03 · Score: 0

You see, we are at a time similar to that of slavery. People were beginning to realize slavery was wrong then, people are beginning to realize attacking people based on their sexual preference is wrong too.

So where does your quest for justice end? Once gays are afforded the same rights as heterosexuals will you march for the NAMBLA people? Pedophiles are people too you know. Man-boy love is just another expression of a healthy relationship between two caring individuals.

Of course it's male homosexuality... by gamgee5273 · 2004-07-12 13:06 · Score: 1

We've seen female homosexuality, at least alluded to, in games for years now: Grand Theft Auto III, Grand Theft Auto: Vice City, Fear Effect, Enter the Matrix...

I'm sure I could go on. For a while.

As for the argument that homosexual characters could be used to bring in female players, I think that's on target. There have been more than a few essays written about the fact that most of the Kirk-Spock erotica out there is written by women for women. A lot of the male-on-male sexual encounters in Japanese pop culture are designed for women. It was only a matter of time before, in the game companies' driving need to grow their audience, this began.

In all honesty, I'm waiting to see if any Japanese dating sims are brought over here in the next few years - maybe for the PS3 (or even the Nintendo Revolution, if they want to go that route).

As far as I'm concerned: it's not my cup of tea, but as long as stores don't go selling soft-core videogames (straight or gay) to kids, I could care less what markets the game companies go after.

Re:Of course it's male homosexuality... by Cyno01 · 2004-07-12 18:20 · Score: 1

We've seen female homosexuality, at least alluded to, in games for years now: Grand Theft Auto III, Grand Theft Auto: Vice City, Fear Effect, Enter the Matrix...
I'm pretty sure tommy was gay... You'd think in at least one mission he'd get it on with Mercedes and/or Candy Suxx, but nope, one of the major missions involves buying a nightclub...

--
"Sic Semper Tyrannosaurus Rex."

Re:Put gays in games... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-07-12 13:11 · Score: 0

I have a problem with all the "gay shows" on TV now-a-days not because they have gay characters, but because of how the gay characters are portrayed as having that be their only character trait. It's like homosexuality is a gimmick that executives use in order to get higher ratings.

What I would personally like to see is a sitcom that revolves around pedophiles as the central characters. It'd be all in good fun. Have the old-fashioned country boy sheriff pop in every show to snoop around looking for young boys being held captive while the main characters (a group of 5 male pedophile housemates who share an apartment in Texas) roll their eyes at the intolerant old fool. That'd be great fun. Homosexuals seem to distance themselves from their pedophile cousins for some reason though. It's all a big brotherhood of love that intolerant hetersexual homophobes just don't understand.

Unknown at the time by shoptroll · 2004-07-12 13:11 · Score: 1

2 "unknown" gay characters:

1. Tony from Earthbound (confirmed by Shigesato Itoi)
2. Raw Steel from Unreal Tournament (as stated by Cliff B.)

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Insert Sig Here

Re:Unknown at the time by Stormwatch · 2004-07-12 17:26 · Score: 1

More two:

Ustvestia, Phantasy Star 2
Ash, Streets of Rage 3

Ustvestia's sexuality was removed from the american release, and Ash was just removed. Actually, SoR3 was seriously softened for the american release and, as Diehard Gamefan put it - they changed a GREAT game into a GOOD one. :-\

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Circumcision is child abuse.

Re:Hasn't Homosexuality been Common in Video Games by Anonymous Coward · 2004-07-12 13:42 · Score: 0

Mario and Luigi are brothers you retard.

MOD PARENT UP by blackcoot · 2004-07-12 14:33 · Score: 3, Insightful

there are a lot of queer folk (lesbian, gay, bisesual, transexual/transgendered, intersex, questioning, and the rest of the alphabet soup), myself included, who are sick to death of the monoculture that's built up. there seems to be this impression that once you identify yourself as belonging to a group that identity supercedes any you may have had before. it makes dating a rather unpleasant experience: my choices are guys my age who haven't gotten over the fact that they like cock or guys about 10 years older than i, about a quarter of whom have realized that there's more to life than rainbow flags, circuit parties, and the gap's latest fall clothing lines (gee, i'm not bitter...).

the more i think about it, the more a lot of the media attention on homoexuals has strong parallels to the blacksploitation films of the early '70s. the thematic elements are different, but the market forces are the same: how to best capitalize on the present frenzy of attention being paid to the issue. personally, i'm really looking forward to the day when nobody gives a fuck about this and we can all move on with our lives.

Re:MOD PARENT UP by Anonymous Coward · 2004-07-12 22:08 · Score: 0

Actually, the one thing I keep hearing whenever transexuals discuss themselves is that they are *not* necessarily homosexual. I'd guess that there's more overlap than would be caused by normal coincidence, but nowhere near enough for you to say that "transexual --> gay".

While I'm replying to your post, you make some good points, but isn't "queer" a pretty attention-seeking and loaded word (roughly cf. black person saying "nigger")? You make some good points, but your use of this word seems to contradict them.
Re:MOD PARENT UP by blackcoot · 2004-07-13 01:52 · Score: 1

i use the word queer to collectively refer to people who identify as lesbian, gay, bisexual, trans{gendered|sexual}, intersex, questioning, genderqueer, etc. quite an umbrella term it is ;-)

you're right, the word queer has had a history of being rather loaded, but that's changing. within the community, it's accepted as being much more inclusive than, for example, gay. it's also a lot easier to pronounce than lgbt (lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgendered) or even lgbttqqi (lesbian, gay, bisexual, transexual, transdendered, questioning, queer, intersex). in general, i don't think anyone will be offended if its clear no offense is intended (e.g. there shouldn't be any problems with you saying something like "queer folk" but "dirty queer" is likely to rankle people ;-))
Re:MOD PARENT UP by Firinne · 2004-07-13 03:41 · Score: 1

There's something to be said about comparing the blacksploitation films of the 70s to the gaysploitation films/TV of today. In both cases, they take a culture that has been generally overlooked by mainstream America and stereotype the hell out of it; not to say that the stereotypes aren't true to an extent. Once people have gotten their fill of that, there tends to be more calls to portray the minority as more than stereotypical, one dimensional characters. But before you can be seen as an individual, people have to recognize the group you identify with.

--
-- "God, Root, what is difference?" - Pitr, "User Friendly"

Gay characters are (apparently) all 1-dimensional by Finuvir · 2004-07-12 14:41 · Score: 1

I wonder can you think of any gay (or bisesual, transexual etc.) characters in TV or movies who you think were just the same as the straight characters except that they were gay? That is, any characters who would still have been interesting if they were straight, so that their sexuality wasn't their only 'hook'. I think I can discern the 'gay characters' from the 'characters that happen to be gay' but I'd appreciate the input of an insider.

--
Why is anything anything?

Congrats by Rayonic · 2004-07-12 14:53 · Score: 2

That was a well-argued post, with several valid points. It's good to see homosexuals like yourself coming forward and dispelling such silly myths and rumors.

... so, if I agree with what you said, will that turn me gay?

;-)

--
[PowerPoint] is a tool for capitalist presentation

Re:Congrats by Chasuk · 2004-07-12 15:56 · Score: 2, Funny

Simply by asking that question, I can calculate using the Secret Gay Quotient Calculator[TM] that you are already 26.895431% gay.

:-)

--
Neopets - the best free game on the Int

Guilty Gear by sirGullible · 2004-07-12 15:28 · Score: 1

IIRC, in the (awesome, but underrated) guilty gear franchise, one of the male characters, Venom, loves another male character, Zato-1, but his love goes without reciprocation.

So homosexual themes/characters/etc in games has been here for a while, especially in Japanese games, considering the lack of it being a taboo.

I still have a problem with it though (I have seen too much yaoi/homoerotic fanfic for my poor eyes)

Re:Put gays in games... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-07-12 15:59 · Score: 0

Man, the real Malaclypse the Younger would be ashamed.

Re:Put gays in games... by rsadelle · 2004-07-12 16:03 · Score: 1

There was a great early episode of The Guardian that dealt with that idea. The general plot of the show is that this corporate lawyer gets no jail time for his drug offenses but he has to do pro bono work for kids as his community service. In this particular episode, he has a client who's a gay teenager. The boy has found an older gay couple who want to adopt him. His rabidly Catholic mother won't give up her parental rights if it means he's going to live with them, but she also doesn't want him in the house if he's gay. The gay couple explains to Nick (the corporate lawyer) why they're good for the kid. With his mom, the kid is always pushing in her face the fact that he's gay. But when he tries that with them, their attitude is, "Yes, we know you're gay. Did you do your homework?"

Re:Hasn't Homosexuality been Common in Video Games by YOU+LIKEWISE+FAIL+IT · 2004-07-12 16:05 · Score: 1

I think the chick in DK was named "Pauline". This is discussed at length somewhere in the "NesTacos" sprite comic ( warning, may cause you to gouge your eyes out ).

--
One god, one market, one truth, one consumer.

Gender and Sexuality Choices by Tojosan · 2004-07-12 16:40 · Score: 1

Sexual preference and gender roles are often left out of games. As a matter fo fact, in very few games on any platform is there a chance to choose your sex, let alone your sexual preference, and even more remote, have it make a hill of beans difference on the game.

I'm not saying you have to make a game just for gays but if you are going to make a role playing game, at least offer the option to play male or female, and if there are possible encounters NPCs where flirting or more is possible, then at least leave the possibility open that the NPC might be gay.
Of course, we should also leave the option open for NPCs to hate whites, blacks or peeps with big feet! :) (I'm partial to one eyed purple androgenous, Venusians.)

All in all, as someone else put it, people of all types should just be parts of the game, not the focus. But being an amateur author, I'd say that if you make someone explicitly straight or green skinned, then it should be important to the story or add some value.

Good grief Charlie Brown!!!
Be well no matter how you lie.

Gays in Video Games by cabra771 · 2004-07-12 18:41 · Score: 1

Somebody else mentioned Cloud from FFVII, but didn't mention the "gym" place that you could go into where all these big huge guys would have what appeared to be one hell of an all male orgy. I don't remember specifics, but it was funnier than hell.
Also I seem to remember some old guy in one of the towns in Castlevania 2: Simon's Quest who sounded a little fruity when asking you to come back to his place.

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-my other sig is your mom

Realistic gay TV character by stardeep · 2004-07-12 20:15 · Score: 1

> can you think of any gay (or bisesual,
> transexual etc.) characters in TV or movies who
> you think were just the same as the straight
> characters except that they were gay?

Yes I can: Roseanne's boss, Leon.

--
Sentimentality is merely the Bank Holiday of cynicism.
- Oscar Wilde

Re:Hasn't Homosexuality been Common in Video Games by Anonymous Coward · 2004-07-12 21:02 · Score: 0

Wait, what about Mario and Luigi? Haven't they been around for a while? ;)

No. Luigi and Captain Falcon. Put both in pink clothes in Super Smash Bros (or Melee). Try playing a few rounds. Absolutely no question about it.

Re:Gay characters are (apparently) all 1-dimension by TuringTest · 2004-07-12 21:35 · Score: 1

Dave, from "6 feet under" is not that bad.

--
Singularity: a belief in the "God" idea with the "demiurge" relation inverted.

Re:That only happens if you are female or you play by Dachannien · 2004-07-12 22:09 · Score: 1

This was removed to appease goverment regulators in the USofC(ensorship).

Last I checked, the only regulations governing computer games in the US are self-imposed by the games industry.

Re:Put gays in games... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-07-12 23:50 · Score: 0

Homosexuals seem to distance themselves from their pedophile cousins for some reason though. It's all a big brotherhood of love that intolerant hetersexual homophobes just don't understand.

How are pedophiles "cousins" of homosexuals, but not heterosexuals? Are you selectively ignoring "hetero" padophiles in order to support your lame argument? Or are you one of those freaks that only supports missionary position sex for reproduction, and lumps everything that isn't "normal" together (hey, if they enjoy oral sex, they're strange.... just like serial killers!).

I've got news for you; your collection of chicken (and other poultry) pornography puts you more firmly in that group than any gay guy.

It's already here! by ObsessiveMathsFreak · 2004-07-13 00:08 · Score: 1

It's called Metal Gear Solid.
The most camp game ever made. Think about it!

Quote: Ocelot: "There's nothing like the feeling of sliding a long silver bullet, into a well greased chamber"

How Solid Snake is not a gay icon, I'll never know. Maybe the market has been ignoring this demographic.

--
May the Maths Be with you!

Fight Club by Anonymous Coward · 2004-07-13 00:36 · Score: 0

Maybe the Fight Club game will have the same homoerotic undertones as the movie?

Re:Put gays in games... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-07-13 02:21 · Score: 0

"The only way I can imagine homosexuality being "shoved down mainstream" is if you watch TV all the damn time or you watch Bravo all the damn time"

That just shows that you aren't paying attention.

Re:Gay characters are (apparently) all 1-dimension by blackcoot · 2004-07-13 02:56 · Score: 1

there are quite a few i can think of. many are indy flicks

angels in america. in particular, the plots following roy cohn (total bastard, both in the play and in real life) and joe pitt.
lilies. brilliant (in my not so humble opinion). the action centers on a group of prisoners performing a play describing the events in a small french canadian town in 1912. as the story unfolds, we see a tale of jealousy, revenge, confession, and ultimately the righting of an injustice. (yes, deliberately ambiguous so as to avoid spoilers)
midnight in the garden of good and evil
bent. a story of love in nazi death camps.
gods and monsters. a chronicle of the last days of james whale's (director of frankenstein) life.
taboo. samurai flick with a twist.
speedway junky
the hours

also, check out eddie izzard genius british comedian.

Re:Put gays in games... by Firinne · 2004-07-13 03:11 · Score: 1

[i]Anybody remember Ellen DeGeneres' old self-titled sitcom? It was actually pretty funny until Ellen came out of the closet, then every episode became centered around how gay she was. All of the humor was gone and the show got canceled pretty quickly after.[/i]

Actually the show was going to get cancelled before that, and she figured that if she was going to go out, she was going to go out at least being honest about herself. The coming out episode, aka "The Puppy Episode" was actually her highest-rated, and caused Disney/Touchstone to extend her series a bit longer than they had planned.

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-- "God, Root, what is difference?" - Pitr, "User Friendly"

Re:Gay characters are (apparently) all 1-dimension by Firinne · 2004-07-13 03:15 · Score: 1

Willow, in Buffy the Vampire Slayer. She was pretty much the same as Oz-dating Willow, only she was sleeping with Tara.

Although, I never will forget Joss for falling in to the whole "Lesbian tragedy/Lesbian turns into murderer" cliche.

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-- "God, Root, what is difference?" - Pitr, "User Friendly"

Deus Ex: Invisible War by alexpage · 2004-07-13 03:49 · Score: 1

I was quite happy while playing Deus Ex: Invisible War to find different situations where you could use your gender to your advantage, depending on the gender of your character. In one part, playing as a male character allows you to seduce another man to get you ahead in the game.

Outside the roleplaying aspect there, there are no gratuitous attempts to make sexuality obvious - it's just a game where one of the NPCs is gay and you can take advantage of that if your character is male. That's all there is to it. And I think that's what we need to see, rather than cheesy stereotype-reinforcing games which try too hard to be "gay friendly".

Re:That only happens if you are female or you play by SmallFurryCreature · 2004-07-13 03:59 · Score: 1

Odd, didn't happen to me. I am sure I would have remembered. Or maybe I am the one who was patched :P I tend to play these games with all the user patches available.

Then again morrowind is a lot of things but bugfree ain't one of them.

--

MMO Quests are like orgasms:

You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.

Re:Gay characters are (apparently) all 1-dimension by Pluvius · 2004-07-13 08:05 · Score: 1

Eddie Izzard's not gay. In fact, he makes jokes about how he's straight despite being an "executive transvestite" in his routines.

Rob (He's also not a character, of course)

Re:Gay characters are (apparently) all 1-dimension by amliebsch · 2004-07-13 08:10 · Score: 1

William Defoe, as Special Agent Paul Smecker in Boondock Saints comes to mind.

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If you don't know where you are going, you will wind up somewhere else.

Re:Put gays in games... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-07-13 09:24 · Score: 0

The Dodge Viper behind my Nismo is sooooo checking out the length of my tailpipe, that pipe smoker!

Re:That only happens if you are female or you play by Ayaress · 2004-07-13 09:54 · Score: 1

Could have been a user patch. Did you join House Hlaalu, though? So long as you don't join House Hlaalu (or at least don't progress far enough in it to start his quests), he talks semi-normally in the mainquest segments. A bit eccentric, but not at all freakish.

The Longest Journey by mikeg22 · 2004-07-13 10:18 · Score: 1

Although the protagonist in the story was hetero, her landlady was openly lesbian. The story took place in the future (late 21st century?) and there was no implied stigma about the woman's relationship with another woman...Certainly a progressive view of the future, and one I hope comes to be.

Re:who ... cares.... (slightly OT) by Anonymous Coward · 2004-07-13 17:26 · Score: 0

You forget that there HAVE been artistic games. Tons of them. But generally these games are not large multi-million dollar success stories. Take Planescape Torment for example; highly artisitic, well-written, stylized and, for the most part, a commercial flop (in spite of being a great game - a little ahead of it's time I guess).
Artisticness (is that a word?) is irrelevant to a game's success. Success depends entirely on gameplay (which I think is what the grandparent meant when he said "fun"). Homosexuality will find its way into gaming, but likely it will pass unnoticed for the most part, except of course by both the gays and homophobic bigots of the world (who will make a big deal of it, of course - but hey the fundamentalists already hate gaming). Me, I'll keep buying games on the sole basis of gameplay.

RsG

Transgendered is not allways Gay by Mr.+Bubbles712 · 2004-07-13 18:31 · Score: 1

Here, Here.

I too am a Executive Transvestite. I just want to throw my two cents in on the whole "Cloud Cross-dressing Adventure"

When I was playing the game, I remember that getting to that damn puzzle and thinking, "Ok, I'm a tv, so this should be easy. Go to the shop, get rude looks from a clerk (if she's old), maybe pick up some makeup, and a wig, and I'm all set." I never knew that I would have to get that damn perfume. The worst part was when a friend came over, and was watching me play, he said something to the effect of "Dude, I thought you knew how to do this." Once again, another point in my life when I should have kept my mouth shut.

Seriously, I would love to see more TV/CD/TS (or the *.*, Transgendered) games, or even just little things. More things like TigerWoods 2004 with the gameface. Or even a stage on DDR where someone is a DragQueen. I know it sounds horible, or cleche, but there is a community of tg's out there. And some of us like to go camp every now and then. And some of you other people do too.

Last thing before my Karma get's bomb from here to infinity, I understand the statements said that Trans community don't belong in the GBL community. I understand, but I like to think of us as the GBL national guard. We show up on the weekends, put on the uniforms, and on monday, back with the suits.

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Alas, poor clippy, I loath him so.

Gay game already existed: GayBlade by Krellan · 2004-07-14 02:25 · Score: 1

This is all I could find online, but there was definitely a gay computer game produced several years ago, in the early 1990's, for the Macintosh: GayBlade. It is a traditional fantasy roleplaying game, obviously with a gay-friendly twist. Never seen it, never played it, would like to play it....

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Dr. Demento On The 'Net!

Re:That only happens if you are female or you play by Anarcho-Goth · 2004-07-15 10:16 · Score: 1

This was removed to appease goverment regulators in the USofC(ensorship).

Last I checked, the only regulations governing computer games in the US are self-imposed by the games industry.

Maybe it was the US Department of Won't somebody PLEASE think of the Children!

--
I hate Liberals and Conservatives.
If you are a Liberal or a Conservative, then HAVE A NICE DAY!
Courage.

164 comments