I would agree with the article, most RPGs have a completely screwed up Risk / Reward ratio. You spend so much time for so little reward -- usually the only motivation is to advance the story, so the better "PHAT" loot can drop.
You know, What my wife and I find really fun is leveling up a new toon to level 10 (WoW, EQ2, D2) -- after that, these games become a grind fest. Anything past that, takes something really fun, and STRETCHES it out to a point where it is almost pointless.
Why is destruction (killing mobs) usually the only way to "level" up your character? Why not creation (crafting)? Even better, make them orthogonal! i.e. Level 50 Weaponsmith, Lev 20 Figher.
Its time for RPGs games to grow up. Get rid of the exponential XP for crying out loud. A DYNAMIC environment, would be a great start, but I'm not holding my breath for that. And lastly, How many cleavage shots do we need to put up with?? The juvenile humor shows that you don't care about making a good game.
-- Why do I need to WAIT 20 mins for in game travel time, when I'm PAYING for the game??!!
> avoiding the item trading aspect entirely. It's called 'pure-core' (You heard it hear first.:)
> Without the good really good items, she couldn't hold her own. Yeah, that's D2's biggest problem -- gear determines EVERYTHING. Compounding the problem is that most of the skills are utter crap. The gear even more so, unless you get one of the high level runewords, like Enigma, or CoH.
Even worse, some of the runewords nerfed some builds. Medidan (Pali with meditation) - gee Thx Insight
What really sucks is that you can't boost skills from 20 to 30 with a cost of 2 points per skill, and from 30-40 with 3 points per skill, because then some skills would be viable.
The bone-mancer (necro with bone spirit & spear) or commander (necro with summons) can solo the game without gear, but every other class needs it.
I'm not sure why Blizzard was so against maphack -- lets nerf that, AND make Meph's levels FOUR times as big, so we waste even more time farming.
It's a pity that D2 Gold means NOTHING. Not even an option to buy a set item from your trophy room, once you've collected it.
D2's other biggest problem is that there is no bloody way to turn off PvP -- even if you "make" the game?! WTF. I'm tired of playing with kids.
I'd pay $5/month for - permanent account (with ability to download it off offline play) - control over the games I play
There really needs to be a D3 -- with PROPER guild support.
> Blizzard took a chance. They released a game engine that surprisingly works very well on low end hardware PC's which people tend to forget makes up the majority of gamers.
Completely agreed! But the reason this _worked_ is because the world is cartoony to begin with, so it is easier to forgive the low-poly modeling.
This is one reason UO lasted so long -- you could play it on laptops.
Canada's copyright system is MORE modern then the US. Common sense tells us that there is no difference "If I loan a CD to a friend to listen to", or "make a copy for him to listen to." I guess we should ban libraries too since the artist is not getting "his fair share."
Copyright & Intellectual Property Rights (which are neither property nor rights) are artificial rights from a world where only people care about greed, instead of sharing knowledge.
What price do you put on a patent that could cure cancer? Why is it OK to profit off the sick & dying? Have we really made that little progress in the past million years, that we still cry & whine like a 2 year saying "mine" -- simply because we were the first to come up with an idea, that we could care less about our fellow human beings??
Copyright: Because it's _such_ a crime against humanity, that people want to share what they find entertaining with others, for free!
-- Because its easier to get mod'd down for having the courage to look at the facts, then ignore Forgotten Christian History.
Re:Does it matter?
on
SCO Vs. Groklaw
·
· Score: 0, Offtopic
Awwwwww, Did I hurt the itty bitty moderator's feelings with facts?
Couldn't let the facts get in the way of an emotional argument now!
Fundamentalism AND Atheism BOTH have their problems (and strengths.) The problem is not in debating which side to choose, but knowing how to utilize strengths to overcome the weaknesses of the other.
> a sincere search for truth must include at least some respect for other's ideas.
Try telling that to the "established" "institutions" !
Maybe Science will one day respect Religion because Science will realize that Religion has answers to the "Why" questions Science cant answer, but since one is Logical and the Emotional, I'm not counting either side working out their differences anytime soon.
You have an interesting point -- can you have a good game that isn't fun? Probably, as you point out by definition, since you can have popular games, that aren't good games. What's really counter-intuitive is that a good game is _relative_ to the player. EverQuest is a good example of how NOT to design a MMO -- I think its design is utter crap, but the merits for what constitutes a good game is made soley on the fact that if at least one person enjoys it, then it was a good game for that person.
But I was looking at the bigger picture -- by listing fundamental properties of games; and there is a reason fun is in the list: If you take away fun, you're left with a simulation, IMHO!
Now I usually don't enjoy most simulators -- too dry for my taste, plus the realism gets in the way, but how else do/would you distinguish games from simulators???
Games like Gran Turismo approach the simulator category -- but the real interesting reason is why is it still a game? Is it because you can't roll or crash your car? Similiarly, is Microsoft Flight Simulator a game? Why isn't it "just" a *toy? What distinguishes toys from games? Is "RealFlight" a game?
I'd love to hear your ideas!
Cheers
* Calling MS FS a toy is not meant to be derogatory. I actually enjoy all 3 examples (GT, MS FS, and RealFlight) I mentioned.
-- 'cuz calling it "Wii" has a better ring then "Gamecube 1.5";-)
Microsoft Windows, and TV with its crap "unreality shows" is proof that good is not equal to popular. Popular is (almost) all about marketing. SOMETIMES they overlap, aka the iPod.
NOW, if you want to know what constitutes a _good_ game, then EVERY game has 1 or more of these properties:
* Acquisition * Communication * Competition * Cooperation * Creation * Destruction * Environment that is interesting * Execution -- how well the game executed its principles * Exploration * Fun * Navigation * Organization * Pattern Recognition * Strategy (Problem-Solving) * Tactics * Trade
Bridge is a popular card game because it is one of the rare card games that has both Competition & Cooperation at the same time, amongst Acquisition, and Communication.
Tetris is a good game because it has: Strategy, Tactics, Navigation, Pattern Recognition, Organization.
I'm _building_ emotional connections to the people I'm playing with. The reason I'm playing online in the _first_ place, cuz its a PITA to go to a LAN party and stuff 40 people in the same room. MUCH more convenient (time, and moving) wise to just hop online, and play with buddies. LAN parties have their place, but one needs to look at the original problem, not the symptom.
Thank-god for VoIP -- it adds part of the missing dimension from LAN parties.
So "aborting" the unborn 1 day before they are born is not killing? Apparently you need to take another look at what constitutes life, and the definition of killing.
> when I ask you if the Earth is round and you answer yes, you are resorting to authority as well, unless you have gone up in space and seen it to be the case with your own eyes.
> Windows 2000. My company finally upgraded to Windows XP, and AFAICT it's exactly the same but with a new paint job.
Obviously you've never done any development on the two OS's.
WinXP is NOT exactly the same as Win2K. They finally got around to fixing some of the memory leaks, and memory allocation bugs in WinXP.
Our 3D convertors (compiled with MSVS.net) allocates various memory sizes, with the total sizes being around a Gig. On the exact same set of hardware, Win 2K will return NULL on malloc, where as XP will return the allocated memory.
> Oblivion.. it's all built on a pretty bland game system that can't do much more than Daggerfall. Quantity over quality.
Completely agreed!
Nasarius what you're alluding to is what game designers call "map density."
People commonly think a larger world is better, but that is counter intuitive! It's much easier to make a smaller world more interesting, because you've reduced the player's "transit" time before they are engaged. In a big world, you have to populate the world with MORE "interesting things" in order to _keep_ the _same density_ otherwise the player will spend most of their time traveling being bored (i.e. Morrowind)
A good example is First Person shooters...
On a small map you can place 5 items to battle control over. On a larger map, having only 5 items "wastes" your space, because people are spending too much travelling to get to the interesting action. This is in CTF style games with power-ups, you want to scale the number of powerups with the number of people -- sort of like a dynamic musical chairs.
Agreed on both counts -- bio break, and chaining is a god send.
A co-worker of mine plays SWG and he can't believe that us WoW players put up with such unbelievable 'transit' times.
In SWG, he mentioned that people had to wait 10+ minutes (think it was for 'elevators'), and enough people 'bitched' so they were shorted down to 5 minutes. People complained again about the 'long waiting', and now it is down to 30 secs to a minute. The funny thing, people are still complaining about the "long delay"
I *really* wish I could pay *double* and fly twice as fast.
Agreed about the other transit modes. They first time waiting for them is cool, the 100+ time, is not.
I never ran into either of those issues -- but then I've had great DMs.
If the DM needs a bio break, chances are, everyone else can take one too.:-)
And if you really have to go, it's not that big of deal to have one of your buddies control your character for a min or two. (If you don't trust them, why are you playing with them?:-)
Slashdot Mirror
I would agree with the article, most RPGs have a completely screwed up Risk / Reward ratio. You spend so much time for so little reward -- usually the only motivation is to advance the story, so the better "PHAT" loot can drop.
You know, What my wife and I find really fun is leveling up a new toon to level 10 (WoW, EQ2, D2) -- after that, these games become a grind fest. Anything past that, takes something really fun, and STRETCHES it out to a point where it is almost pointless.
Why is destruction (killing mobs) usually the only way to "level" up your character?
Why not creation (crafting)?
Even better, make them orthogonal! i.e. Level 50 Weaponsmith, Lev 20 Figher.
Its time for RPGs games to grow up. Get rid of the exponential XP for crying out loud. A DYNAMIC environment, would be a great start, but I'm not holding my breath for that. And lastly, How many cleavage shots do we need to put up with?? The juvenile humor shows that you don't care about making a good game.
--
Why do I need to WAIT 20 mins for in game travel time, when I'm PAYING for the game??!!
> avoiding the item trading aspect entirely. :)
It's called 'pure-core' (You heard it hear first.
> Without the good really good items, she couldn't hold her own.
Yeah, that's D2's biggest problem -- gear determines EVERYTHING. Compounding the problem is that most of the skills are utter crap. The gear even more so, unless you get one of the high level runewords, like Enigma, or CoH.
Even worse, some of the runewords nerfed some builds.
Medidan (Pali with meditation) - gee Thx Insight
What really sucks is that you can't boost skills from 20 to 30 with a cost of 2 points per skill, and from 30-40 with 3 points per skill, because then some skills would be viable.
The bone-mancer (necro with bone spirit & spear) or commander (necro with summons) can solo the game without gear, but every other class needs it.
I'm not sure why Blizzard was so against maphack -- lets nerf that, AND make Meph's levels FOUR times as big, so we waste even more time farming.
It's a pity that D2 Gold means NOTHING. Not even an option to buy a set item from your trophy room, once you've collected it.
D2's other biggest problem is that there is no bloody way to turn off PvP -- even if you "make" the game?! WTF. I'm tired of playing with kids.
I'd pay $5/month for
- permanent account (with ability to download it off offline play)
- control over the games I play
There really needs to be a D3 -- with PROPER guild support.
> Blizzard took a chance. They released a game engine that surprisingly works very well on low end hardware PC's which people tend to forget makes up the majority of gamers.
Completely agreed! But the reason this _worked_ is because the world is cartoony to begin with, so it is easier to forgive the low-poly modeling.
This is one reason UO lasted so long -- you could play it on laptops.
Agreed.
So a blacksmith can make armor but can't repair his own?
Why does all the high-level smithing gear suck compared to what you can farm/grind for?
> but the game engine is second to none.
Oh please. Maybe on stability, but not on features.
i.e.
The game only supports blob shadows.
"failure to modernize its copyright regime" ??
Canada's copyright system is MORE modern then the US. Common sense tells us that there is no difference "If I loan a CD to a friend to listen to", or "make a copy for him to listen to." I guess we should ban libraries too since the artist is not getting "his fair share."
Copyright & Intellectual Property Rights (which are neither property nor rights) are artificial rights from a world where only people care about greed, instead of sharing knowledge.
What price do you put on a patent that could cure cancer? Why is it OK to profit off the sick & dying? Have we really made that little progress in the past million years, that we still cry & whine like a 2 year saying "mine" -- simply because we were the first to come up with an idea, that we could care less about our fellow human beings??
Copyright: Because it's _such_ a crime against humanity, that people want to share what they find entertaining with others, for free!
--
Because its easier to get mod'd down for having the courage to look at the facts, then ignore Forgotten Christian History.
Awwwwww, Did I hurt the itty bitty moderator's feelings with facts?
Couldn't let the facts get in the way of an emotional argument now!
--
Forgotten Christian History
Sure it is!
Why did you forgot to include John 20:17 ??
"I ascend unto my Father, and to your Father, and to my God, and your God."
Do you even understand _what_ 'annointed' means?
Do you even understand _when_ it took place?
> In fact look at the people who preach up and down about Jesus. It's all about the man, and little if any about his message.
Yeap. Which is so ironic, since that wasn't even his name! (The 'J' glyph wasn't invented until the 17th century, AFTER the 1611 KJV printing.)
Furthermore, they worship a false god. i.e. ""Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone"
> Fundamentalism is generally a bad idea.
Fundamentalism AND Atheism BOTH have their problems (and strengths.) The problem is not in debating which side to choose, but knowing how to utilize strengths to overcome the weaknesses of the other.
> a sincere search for truth must include at least some respect for other's ideas.
Try telling that to the "established" "institutions" !
Maybe Science will one day respect Religion because Science will realize that Religion has answers to the "Why" questions Science cant answer, but since one is Logical and the Emotional, I'm not counting either side working out their differences anytime soon.
You have an interesting point -- can you have a good game that isn't fun? Probably, as you point out by definition, since you can have popular games, that aren't good games. What's really counter-intuitive is that a good game is _relative_ to the player. EverQuest is a good example of how NOT to design a MMO -- I think its design is utter crap, but the merits for what constitutes a good game is made soley on the fact that if at least one person enjoys it, then it was a good game for that person.
;-)
But I was looking at the bigger picture -- by listing fundamental properties of games; and there is a reason fun is in the list: If you take away fun, you're left with a simulation, IMHO!
Now I usually don't enjoy most simulators -- too dry for my taste, plus the realism gets in the way, but how else do/would you distinguish games from simulators???
Games like Gran Turismo approach the simulator category -- but the real interesting reason is why is it still a game? Is it because you can't roll or crash your car? Similiarly, is Microsoft Flight Simulator a game? Why isn't it "just" a *toy? What distinguishes toys from games? Is "RealFlight" a game?
I'd love to hear your ideas!
Cheers
* Calling MS FS a toy is not meant to be derogatory. I actually enjoy all 3 examples (GT, MS FS, and RealFlight) I mentioned.
--
'cuz calling it "Wii" has a better ring then "Gamecube 1.5"
Microsoft Windows, and TV with its crap "unreality shows" is proof that good is not equal to popular. Popular is (almost) all about marketing. SOMETIMES they overlap, aka the iPod.
NOW, if you want to know what constitutes a _good_ game, then EVERY game has 1 or more of these properties:
* Acquisition
* Communication
* Competition
* Cooperation
* Creation
* Destruction
* Environment that is interesting
* Execution -- how well the game executed its principles
* Exploration
* Fun
* Navigation
* Organization
* Pattern Recognition
* Strategy (Problem-Solving)
* Tactics
* Trade
Bridge is a popular card game because it is one of the rare card games that has both Competition & Cooperation at the same time, amongst Acquisition, and Communication.
Tetris is a good game because it has: Strategy, Tactics, Navigation, Pattern Recognition, Organization.
Counter-Strike: Competion, Cooperation, Destruction, Creation, Communication, Navigation, Exploration, Organization.
World of Warcraft: Every single property!
But what do I know, I'm just a game dev.
So where do _you_ draw the line, and more importantly why?
I never mentioned Jesus; what does he have to do with a discussion on respecting life??
Here starts the slipperly slope of freedom of speech to criticize the government.
I'm _building_ emotional connections to the people I'm playing with. The reason I'm playing online in the _first_ place, cuz its a PITA to go to a LAN party and stuff 40 people in the same room. MUCH more convenient (time, and moving) wise to just hop online, and play with buddies. LAN parties have their place, but one needs to look at the original problem, not the symptom.
Thank-god for VoIP -- it adds part of the missing dimension from LAN parties.
So "aborting" the unborn 1 day before they are born is not killing? Apparently you need to take another look at what constitutes life, and the definition of killing.
> when I ask you if the Earth is round and you answer yes, you are resorting to authority as well, unless you have gone up in space and seen it to be the case with your own eyes.
Obviously Eratosthenes didn't know jack.
And apparently the top of a ship's mast appearing first from a distance doesn't mean anything either...
HINT: Why don't you go back to school and learn some logic and mathematics.
> The point is, though, that software patents are currently completely legal,
Killing people is legal too, but that still doesn' make it morally right
> Windows 2000. My company finally upgraded to Windows XP, and AFAICT it's exactly the same but with a new paint job.
.net) allocates various memory sizes, with the total sizes being around a Gig. On the exact same set of hardware, Win 2K will return NULL on malloc, where as XP will return the allocated memory.
Obviously you've never done any development on the two OS's.
WinXP is NOT exactly the same as Win2K. They finally got around to fixing some of the memory leaks, and memory allocation bugs in WinXP.
Our 3D convertors (compiled with MSVS
> Oblivion .. it's all built on a pretty bland game system that can't do much more than Daggerfall. Quantity over quality.
Completely agreed!
Nasarius what you're alluding to is what game designers call "map density."
People commonly think a larger world is better, but that is counter intuitive! It's much easier to make a smaller world more interesting, because you've reduced the player's "transit" time before they are engaged. In a big world, you have to populate the world with MORE "interesting things" in order to _keep_ the _same density_ otherwise the player will spend most of their time traveling being bored (i.e. Morrowind)
A good example is First Person shooters...
On a small map you can place 5 items to battle control over.
On a larger map, having only 5 items "wastes" your space, because people are spending too much travelling to get to the interesting action. This is in CTF style games with power-ups, you want to scale the number of powerups with the number of people -- sort of like a dynamic musical chairs.
Cheers
Agreed on both counts -- bio break, and chaining is a god send.
A co-worker of mine plays SWG and he can't believe that us WoW players put up with such unbelievable 'transit' times.
In SWG, he mentioned that people had to wait 10+ minutes (think it was for 'elevators'), and enough people 'bitched' so they were shorted down to 5 minutes. People complained again about the 'long waiting', and now it is down to 30 secs to a minute. The funny thing, people are still complaining about the "long delay"
I *really* wish I could pay *double* and fly twice as fast.
Agreed about the other transit modes. They first time waiting for them is cool, the 100+ time, is not.
I never ran into either of those issues -- but then I've had great DMs.
:-)
:-)
If the DM needs a bio break, chances are, everyone else can take one too.
And if you really have to go, it's not that big of deal to have one of your buddies control your character for a min or two. (If you don't trust them, why are you playing with them?
Not until there is an "Alcohol 120%" for the Mac will it take off as a gaming platform. 'Bout the only real utility I miss... :-(