"Game design is about giving the player _interesting_ choices."
If the player is bored, or is there is dead time (I'm looking at you WoW Designers and your stupid flight path times), your game play is BROKEN. People are not playing games to be bored -- they are playing to be entertained. All good games take fact of the "natural game play" cycle. In Halo it was shoot, rest, shoot rest. MMO's same pattern: Attack, Camp, Attack, Camp. Even turn-based games, computer or board games (Chess, MtG), have this cycle, of where you "interact with the world", and then you wait to see the outcome.
This is what makes DnD so great -- no dead time. The DM controls the pacing. (It stinks in other areas, but it got this fundamental, down pat.)
-- Games complaining about how a game is unrealistic is missing the point -- it's about whether the game is a) believable, b) consistent, and c) logical
You've made some _very good_ points, and I would have to agree with you, about shaders being aliases for register combiners. They certainly started off that way, and just got more general purpose along the way. I'm assuming you've checked out the sweet GeForce 8 hardware? We can finally mix and match vertex/pixel stream data. Yay!:)
I was hoping we were past the fixed pipeline phases on consoles, so if I were to define "proper pixel/vertex shader support" it would be: - not fixed pipeline - independent of the CPU (whether it is async or sync timing.)
So technically, while the Wii has '1st generation' shaders, I'd probably call it 0.5 Vertex Shaders and 0.5 Pixel Shaders. Your point about Paired Singles is well taken -- I guess I just miss the VU's from the PS2, but its good to know the paired-singles optimizes quite nicely.
Q. Where did you end up sticking your render geometry, Mem1 or Mem2? What about your collision geometry?
Newsgroups may be passe, but the "official" forums are still the best place to get tech(nical) info.
Grats on your back-porting your title -- I usually don't keep up to date with titles, and/or maybe I'm just dense;-)
Very nice discussion, btw! Glad things were kept civil. I guess we're "arguing" over splitting hairs.:-)
1) Calling its Texture Stages with Logical Operations a 'shader' is abusing the terminology. At best, it has a PSEUDO-pixel shader, like the DX7 style texture stages, not the PROPER DX8 pixel shaders.
2) The Wii doesn't have vertex shaders -- unless you write your own. Are you going to call CPU skinning a 'hardware vertex shader' ??
So it's not ridiculous to claim the Wii has no shaders. I agree with the gp "the Wii doesn't have full-fledged shaders" At best, it has 1/2 a pixel shader.
Or do we need to take this to the 'rvl.graphics' group?
People need to grow up about this "Intellectual Property Rights" nonsense, which are neither property, nor rights.
Did you build your own compiler? Did you build your own motherboard? Did you go to school to learn Theory & Application? What about all those people who donated their time and effort _SHARING_ their knowledge of Algorithms? And you want to profit off their work then bitch over a few people that see copyright for what it really is -- an _artificial_ right. The ONLY reason the government has that right, is because _the people_ decided it was OK to _give_ it to the government.
If I may extend the discussion to music... Did you build your own instrument? Did you build your own mixing studio? Did you listen to any other music?
Obviously this guy cares more about profit, then people listening to his work and getting free exposure / advertising. A true artist produces something because he values his own work -- if other people do not, he does not have the right to enforce his artificial prices on others, whether that price is near zero or not. Fortunately most people will realize that the artist should be supported so they can produce more, but there will always be a percentage of people who, quite justified, don't owe a dime to anyone. To those artists that get their "panties in a knot", "Get over yourself! You're like the pessimist who complains the jar is half-empty, ignoring the fact that it is also half full." i.e. Am I "stealing from the artist" when I record a song off the radio so I can listen to it again at my convenience? Am I "stealing from the artist" when I listen to the CD at a friends place? Am I "stealing from the artitst" when I buy a used CD? Am I "stealing from the developer" if I use the software at a friends?
Produce something that _others perceive as valuable_, and you'll be rewarded. More importantly, do it because you love doing it. We already have enough people doing it because "they want to make a buck."
The fact is, 99% of all musicians were influenced by their peers, and the people they grew up listening to. Saying you own the "right" to a specific order of notes, is as about stupid as a photographer trying to claim he owns the copyright on a photo. If I retake the photo with my own camera, in the same location, and same time of day, do I now _also_ have copyright?!
Seriously, this fixation with money, is getting tiring. There is more to life then money.
-- You prove your religion, by the way you live your beliefs.
Let me know when we other languages then Assmebly, C / C++ on consoles (such as PS2 and PS3), that other don't impose a Run Time overhead.
Languages are only a small minor part of the problem. You can write beautiful/elegant or trash code in any language. The bigger question is: How many side effects are there? How manageable is it? How long will it take to come up with a design that is both a) fast, and b) flexible.
On consoles this just isn't going to happen -- the barrier of entry is just too high (how many programmers are able to write a complete rendering + physics + ai systems?!) -- MAYBE with MS now offering XNA, but we'll have to wait and see...
On PCs, this idea is becoming less and less feasible, unless you limit yourself to "simple" games. Nothing wrong with them, say like the 80's 8-bit games or 90's web games, but people expectations have moved on, such as full 3D environments, physics, multiplayer, etc.
Of course there are exceptions, such as Darwinia, FlightGear, etc., but without graphic and sound artists, most lost budget games just don't have the sex appeal to get them selling. Quality content just costs too much, on TOP of the programming budget, not to mention having a game designer that knows what he is doing.
I wish there was a good open source game engine that didn't suck. Written by _professionals_ that know what the hell they are doing, and written with a _good_ coding standard. We got OpenGL, we have ODE, we have OpenAL, why isn't there an engine that ties everything together. (Yes, I've heard of Torque) I suspect because we're still a ways off from having a "good engine" that is "good enough", instead of highly tuned engines for the game at hand.
Having just spent the last few days porting our core engine over to the Wii, I can say "Not Going To Happen." There are is just too much render data, and not enough RAM.
Remember, the Wii only has 88 Megs of RAM (not including the OS!) -- shoehorning a big PC game isn't feasible without completely butchering the game. (And before some says, "Yesh but the NAND (Built In Memory Card) has 512 Megs of RAM", I'll reply with "That's reserved for savegames, not general usage, unfortunately.")
-- Wii: Because it has a better ring then "Gamecube 1.5":-)
> If you want to produce something printer-ready, you generate a PDF.
Agreed.
I have the same Excel spreadsheet on 2 computers -- one runs Win2K, the other WinXP, both connected to a network printer (XP), using the same driver. The dam file prints differently! At least with PDFs I get _consistent_ output.
You're throwing out the baby with the bath water. Some of us don't want to give up Discovery Channel, PBS or other educational shows.
TV is not the problem. People have a natural desire to be entertained, and to "communicate" across great distances. Lack of self control, discipline, parenting, and maturity is the problem. Treat the cause, not the sympotom.
But I agree, if everyone would shut the stupid boob toob off an extra 1 hr an week, it would be a good start.
Slashdot Mirror
Completely agree with you -- the world interaction (or lack of it), stinks in WoW.
I highly recommend playing Ultima 7, or UO if you want to interact with the world.
I still miss the insert key -- I program for a living, and its annoying not having it.
Yeah, but the PHAT LOOT sucks ;-)
"Game design is about giving the player _interesting_ choices."
If the player is bored, or is there is dead time (I'm looking at you WoW Designers and your stupid flight path times), your game play is BROKEN. People are not playing games to be bored -- they are playing to be entertained. All good games take fact of the "natural game play" cycle. In Halo it was shoot, rest, shoot rest. MMO's same pattern: Attack, Camp, Attack, Camp. Even turn-based games, computer or board games (Chess, MtG), have this cycle, of where you "interact with the world", and then you wait to see the outcome.
This is what makes DnD so great -- no dead time. The DM controls the pacing. (It stinks in other areas, but it got this fundamental, down pat.)
--
Games complaining about how a game is unrealistic is missing the point -- it's about whether the game is
a) believable, b) consistent, and c) logical
Exactly,
* If a bad game ships on time, no one will remember it.
* But if a good game is late, no one will remember it was late.
The game industry sucks at times...
Can't.
a) I didn't hear you,
b) I got run over.
Alright, I concede.
:)
;-)
:-)
You've made some _very good_ points, and I would have to agree with you, about shaders being aliases for register combiners. They certainly started off that way, and just got more general purpose along the way. I'm assuming you've checked out the sweet GeForce 8 hardware? We can finally mix and match vertex/pixel stream data. Yay!
I was hoping we were past the fixed pipeline phases on consoles, so if I were to define "proper pixel/vertex shader support" it would be:
- not fixed pipeline
- independent of the CPU (whether it is async or sync timing.)
So technically, while the Wii has '1st generation' shaders, I'd probably call it 0.5 Vertex Shaders and 0.5 Pixel Shaders. Your point about Paired Singles is well taken -- I guess I just miss the VU's from the PS2, but its good to know the paired-singles optimizes quite nicely.
Q. Where did you end up sticking your render geometry, Mem1 or Mem2? What about your collision geometry?
Newsgroups may be passe, but the "official" forums are still the best place to get tech(nical) info.
Grats on your back-porting your title -- I usually don't keep up to date with titles, and/or maybe I'm just dense
Very nice discussion, btw! Glad things were kept civil. I guess we're "arguing" over splitting hairs.
Cheers
1) Calling its Texture Stages with Logical Operations a 'shader' is abusing the terminology. At best, it has a PSEUDO-pixel shader, like the DX7 style texture stages, not the PROPER DX8 pixel shaders.
2) The Wii doesn't have vertex shaders -- unless you write your own. Are you going to call CPU skinning a 'hardware vertex shader' ??
So it's not ridiculous to claim the Wii has no shaders. I agree with the gp "the Wii doesn't have full-fledged shaders" At best, it has 1/2 a pixel shader.
Or do we need to take this to the 'rvl.graphics' group?
Stealing != Copying.
People need to grow up about this "Intellectual Property Rights" nonsense, which are neither property, nor rights.
Did you build your own compiler?
Did you build your own motherboard?
Did you go to school to learn Theory & Application? What about all those people who donated their time and effort _SHARING_ their knowledge of Algorithms? And you want to profit off their work then bitch over a few people that see copyright for what it really is -- an _artificial_ right. The ONLY reason the government has that right, is because _the people_ decided it was OK to _give_ it to the government.
If I may extend the discussion to music...
Did you build your own instrument?
Did you build your own mixing studio?
Did you listen to any other music?
Obviously this guy cares more about profit, then people listening to his work and getting free exposure / advertising. A true artist produces something because he values his own work -- if other people do not, he does not have the right to enforce his artificial prices on others, whether that price is near zero or not. Fortunately most people will realize that the artist should be supported so they can produce more, but there will always be a percentage of people who, quite justified, don't owe a dime to anyone. To those artists that get their "panties in a knot", "Get over yourself! You're like the pessimist who complains the jar is half-empty, ignoring the fact that it is also half full."
i.e.
Am I "stealing from the artist" when I record a song off the radio so I can listen to it again at my convenience?
Am I "stealing from the artist" when I listen to the CD at a friends place?
Am I "stealing from the artitst" when I buy a used CD?
Am I "stealing from the developer" if I use the software at a friends?
Produce something that _others perceive as valuable_, and you'll be rewarded. More importantly, do it because you love doing it. We already have enough people doing it because "they want to make a buck."
The fact is, 99% of all musicians were influenced by their peers, and the people they grew up listening to. Saying you own the "right" to a specific order of notes, is as about stupid as a photographer trying to claim he owns the copyright on a photo. If I retake the photo with my own camera, in the same location, and same time of day, do I now _also_ have copyright?!
Seriously, this fixation with money, is getting tiring. There is more to life then money.
--
You prove your religion, by the way you live your beliefs.
Quite right.
Mathematics is the universal language. Music expreses that, and also the language of the soul, so it has the best of both worlds.
--
Computer & Music Joke: Rember, C# is still a Db.
> Wrong tools: C and C++ language
Let me know when we other languages then Assmebly, C / C++ on consoles (such as PS2 and PS3), that other don't impose a Run Time overhead.
Languages are only a small minor part of the problem. You can write beautiful/elegant or trash code in any language. The bigger question is: How many side effects are there? How manageable is it? How long will it take to come up with a design that is both a) fast, and b) flexible.
> Why should a computer 'just work'?
Why do you need to un-needlessly complicate things?
> A car doesn't 'just work'
Sure it does. You're confusing _maintenance_ with daily usage. You just start it up, and you're pretty much ready to go.
> You need months of training to use
Straw Man. Maybe thats an indicator that the Interface STILL sucks.
> Why is it reasonable to expect it to do more but more simply?
Because unneedless complexity is a sign of bad (or lack of) design.
Send them to...
Linux Genuine Advantage
--
Windows: Why its file system still blows?.doc
Unix: README_JUST_AS_STUPID.DOC
Unix: readme_just_as_stupid.doc
> I'm not really sure what .... Howls Moving Castle is either
:-(
Uhm, HELLO!!! --> Hayao __Miyazaki__ !!
Spirited Away ('01)
Princess Mononoke ('97)
Kiki's Delivery Service ('89) (Phil Hartman , we miss you
Castle in the Sky ('86)
--
Yes, you will come back, suicide or not. Sucks to be you!
So because the guy is an asshole, that makes it all right to be one too?! Way to go!
How about treating people with the respect, instead of stooping down to their level.
--
Wii: Because it has a better ring then "Gamecube 1.5"
> All major OSes get some bloat as they grow
Nonsense. Just because you've been conditioned to think this, doesn't make it true.
Mac OS X, and Be OS got faster, not slower.
Dude, just get a Mac. Withdrawal symptoms from MS only last so long...
Gamma is _after_ Alpha, and Beta, not before.
It's pre-Alpha, unless it has all the basic features implemented (whether they work or not)
On consoles this just isn't going to happen -- the barrier of entry is just too high (how many programmers are able to write a complete rendering + physics + ai systems?!) -- MAYBE with MS now offering XNA, but we'll have to wait and see...
On PCs, this idea is becoming less and less feasible, unless you limit yourself to "simple" games. Nothing wrong with them, say like the 80's 8-bit games or 90's web games, but people expectations have moved on, such as full 3D environments, physics, multiplayer, etc.
Of course there are exceptions, such as Darwinia, FlightGear, etc., but without graphic and sound artists, most lost budget games just don't have the sex appeal to get them selling. Quality content just costs too much, on TOP of the programming budget, not to mention having a game designer that knows what he is doing.
I wish there was a good open source game engine that didn't suck. Written by _professionals_ that know what the hell they are doing, and written with a _good_ coding standard. We got OpenGL, we have ODE, we have OpenAL, why isn't there an engine that ties everything together. (Yes, I've heard of Torque) I suspect because we're still a ways off from having a "good engine" that is "good enough", instead of highly tuned engines for the game at hand.
Cheers
Mod parent up!
> Hope they get a Wii version soon,
:-)
Having just spent the last few days porting our core engine over to the Wii, I can say "Not Going To Happen." There are is just too much render data, and not enough RAM.
Remember, the Wii only has 88 Megs of RAM (not including the OS!) -- shoehorning a big PC game isn't feasible without completely butchering the game. (And before some says, "Yesh but the NAND (Built In Memory Card) has 512 Megs of RAM", I'll reply with "That's reserved for savegames, not general usage, unfortunately.")
--
Wii: Because it has a better ring then "Gamecube 1.5"
Mod parent up -- very cool link
t icsu/powersof10/
Another good link is "Powers of Ten"
http://micro.magnet.fsu.edu/primer/java/scienceop
> If you want to produce something printer-ready, you generate a PDF.
Agreed.
I have the same Excel spreadsheet on 2 computers -- one runs Win2K, the other WinXP, both connected to a network printer (XP), using the same driver. The dam file prints differently! At least with PDFs I get _consistent_ output.
--
Windows: Why it file system still blows?.doc
You're throwing out the baby with the bath water. Some of us don't want to give up Discovery Channel, PBS or other educational shows.
TV is not the problem. People have a natural desire to be entertained, and to "communicate" across great distances. Lack of self control, discipline, parenting, and maturity is the problem. Treat the cause, not the sympotom.
But I agree, if everyone would shut the stupid boob toob off an extra 1 hr an week, it would be a good start.
> Is the IRS going to spend $300 on an auditor to collect $30 of taxes? Think about it.
This is the government we're talking about...