Sounds rosy. But the expensive, super-inefficient electrolyzer and hydrogen storage tank should be omitted and either Li-Ion batteries or flywheel technology should be implemented instead.
Think of this - solar cells are VERY expensive. You will need approx 10kWh of solar electricity produced by those expensive solar cells to produce approx 2kWh of USEABLE electricity after the inefficiencies of a system you tout. In comparison, you only need approx 2.2-2.4kWh of solar electricity to produce 2kWh of useable electricity after storage in a Li-Ion battery or flywheel storage system. That means you could get away with 1/4 of the solar cells needed for a hydrogen based storage system. That's a lot of money considering the solar modules will end up costing 60-70% of the entire system cost.
The process of splitting water into hydrogen and oxygen, storing the hydrogen for later use and finally, recombining the hydrogen and oxygen through the fuel cell is only about 15-20% efficient. The process of storing the solar electricity directly into a battery or flywheel and obtaining that electricity for later use is 80-90% efficient.
Electrolyzers are not cheap nor are they maintenance free. Once you add the ancillary components to such a system (storage tank, fuel cell, etc), it gets very expensive, even more so than a flywheel or battery system.
So why tout hydrogen? For one it is supported by the current administration (read f*cking morons), and it allows energy co's to join the party (and still potentially maintain profits). Early (5-10 years) fuel cell systems will be powered by fossil fuels. Electrolyzer-based systems for homes will never be practical or affordable.
I'd have to agree that the Segway is way too expensive but 10X more than a "relatively high-end mountain bike"? I paid $1,400 for mine (20% off list) and I still have my buddies make fun of my not-so-great fork. 5X, maybe.
What surprises me most is that there hasn't been any attempts to maim our president yet.
Fox is an opinion piece and a hard right one at that. Their reporting sucks. The morning Fox n Friends show is so pro-Bush it makes me want to puke. I do have to admit though, the pure amusement content of the show sucks me to the idiocrisy more often than it should.
Uhh, where do you get your info???!!! The solar panels on my roof are warranted for 25 years and not just to work, but they have to maintain a minimum of 80% original output at the end of the 25 year period.
Amorphous panels produce enough power to offset the energy what was required to produce them in 4 years. It's less than 6 years for polycrystalline modules and 10 years for most monocrystalline solar modules. Nearly 100% of the terrestrial solar panels put into use in the late 70's/early 80's are still crankin and the quality of those panels are nowhere near that of current solar modules. Encapsulation technology has put solar panels in the class of concrete bricks - almost literally.
Ahhh, true, but isn't the best thing to do is avoid an accident altogether?? A smaller car is less likely to get into an accident because a) they are more nimble and agile and b) they are smaller, making collisions less likely because of reduced frontal/rear/side area. Simple physics would tell you that you are LESS likely to get into an accident and MORE likely to avoid an accident in a smaller, lighter vehicle. Is this worth anything??? If I went head to head with an Expedition at 40 mph, I don't think I would worry so much if I was in a Tercel, Camry, Ford pickup, or Toyota Highlander. Either which way, I'm fzuxked.
Great, so why don't you go buy an H2?? Or maybe something bigger? Typical "gotta have something bigger than everyone else to feel safe" mentality. Slave to idiocy...
Well, I just calculated the surface area of my Honda Insight (including the rear window). It was quick and dirty not taking into account the bulging corners and sharper-than-30-degree angled surfaces. I came out with 37 sq ft. If a module is 14% efficient (typical at the commercial level these days), it would yield approx 14 watts per sq ft. That would mean I could only get 518 watts from the entire surface area of my Insight minus the front windshield. Not bad but nowhere near the 2kW you calculated for the Prius. I realize your 17.4% vs. my 14% could make a difference but to a factor of four? Is the Prius just a heck a lot bigger than I thought?
Well, if you covered the entire car including its roof, hood, trunk and rear window (using less efficient transparent solar cells) with cells that automobile manufacturers could actually afford, you could maybe get away with 800 watts max in a practical application. And that's using cells of at least 18% efficiency. But, you have to consider that your car could be parked in the sun all or most of the day. That would yield (or store) anywhere from 3,200 - 4,800 watt-hours of energy. How much is that? Well, it's enough to crank a 75HP electric motor at two-thirds capacity (about 50HP or 37 kilowatts) for about 7.5 minutes. 50HP is enough power to get a well-designed car (decent weight and relatively low coefficient of drag) to maintain 65 mph - easy.
Cruising at 65 mph on the freeway is relatively as efficient as driving in the city (stop and go vs. constant high speed). This is a HUGE variable so please no rebuttals. I'm trying to be general here.. So if you travel 65 mph on the freeway you'll travel 8.12 miles in 7.5 minutes. If you were in the city in stop and go traffic you would cover about the same distance - 8.12 miles on that same bucket of solar energy. Throw in some hills and a lot of wind and you may have to shave about 20%.
8 or even 6 miles from pure solar power every day? That's kick ass! Considering I only drive about 4,000 miles per year in my Honda Insight, solar power could supplement over half of the miles I travel every year! Heck, even if you drive 10,000 miles per year, that's still 20% from pure solar.
Who says solar cars are not viable? I say get those lame ass solar race cars off the road and start integrating some solar technology into hybrids with LARGER storage batteries. Japan, you listening??? (cause I know US car manufacturers sure as hell ain't).
Hey JerkFace. Have you anything better to do than ridicule (with zero substance) other's posts?
Batteries are essentially 100% recycled when the material is reclaimed and put back into the manufacturing process of anything. Li-Ion, PbA, and NiMH are virtually 100% recyclable.
BTW, my numbers are not made up and are completely substantiated. Apparently you can't rebut with any numbers yourself. If I don't post fact what the fu*k is??
Ah, very true. I always thought the solar car race applied to furthering accomplishments in aerodynamics - and nothing more. The rules do make it difficult to innovate.
Well, I've taken apart approx 40 laptops in my time. From Compaq's to Vaio's. Never have I come across a wall rat that fed the battery directly without a means to power the laptop. Manuals give little info about the wiring diagram of a computer. In fact, I have never come across a manual that explained the principle behind power supply for the laptop. Perhaps you are talking about much older laptops (pre-94') that operate solely off the battery. I know for fact that today, not a single laptop operates ONLY with the battery connected. Most Li-Ion batteries will have a reduced life cycle even if the battery is discharged 10-20%. Li-Ion does not have the same operating characteristics as PbA type or NiCad. These batteries prefer a very shallow discharge (
Most Li-Ion batteries today only become shot (i.e. produces zero power) once the battery reaches a VERY low voltage - usually
I'd surmise that 30-40% of all discarded Li-Ion batteries are still good for another 200+ cycles to at least 75% of nominal (as new) charge but people don't know how or even if their batts can be revived.
Generally speaking, methanol is more toxic than any component in a Li-Ion battery. From a disposal standpoint, cartridges will have to be produced to transport and distribute methanol to laptop computers. You can't just have a jug of the stuff and expect to pour it into a laundry-type fabric softener receptacle. They will be recharged by canisters, similar to how butane recharges lighters, or CO2 cartridges replace air in a bicycle tire. One bottle may operate a laptop for 40 ours or so. That's 50+ bottles of waste compared to the waste of one Li-Ion battery. And these cartridges won't be made of simple plastics. They will have to incorporate some kind of metal to engage and connector system, so forget about throwing them in the "plastics" container at your nearest recycling depot. It will end up in one place and one place only - the landfill.
Li-Ion batteries, on the other hand, have a very ubiquitous network of depository stations all over the country, including Circuit City, Home Depot, Best Buy, WalMart, Sears, etc. http://www.rbrc.org/index.html?sp=true
All batteries are 100% recycled - from the plastic casing to the cathode and anode, to the gelled electrolyte - everything.
And yes, I do feel that people will be making special trips to the store to purchase these cartridges because they're all out of juice. Drive a car? There is additional unnecessary environmental onslaught directly connected to a fuel cell powered laptop society.
Uhhh, I never drank windshield wiper fluid or glass cleaner but I know I got it on my hands before. As for methanol, you don't wan't any of this stuff getting on your skin. Methanol is readily absorbed through the skin or mucus membranes. Once in the body it is converted by the liver to formaldehyde, a very poisonous chemical. And who the hell opens up there Li-Ion batteries? You're in a pipedream thinking you can just grab a gallon milk jug filled with methanol to fill your laptop fuel tank. If this ever becomes reality, you'll be buying specially made and approved cartridges or canisters (sold by laptop top co's) to refill your laptop. They'll be at least 10 times pricier per ml than your cheapo plastic jug o methanol. But check eBay for special methanol refill jugs for 1/4 the price, but like those cheapo ink refill kits, your laptop may not work!
Great, but I still don't see the benefit of the fuel cell over an extra battery or universal battery (70+ watt-hours). A truly mobile businessman would invest in a Centrino-equipped laptop, like an IBM. It can run for 7+ hours on a 55 watt-hour battery. An additional 3-4 lb universal battery (approx $300) would provide an additional 9+ hours. 16+ hours?? Yeah, some flights w/stopovers could be this long, but would you (or could you) be on a laptop for that long when flying?? If so, you're definitely an anomaly. Manufacturers don't market to anomalies..
The problem is that you still have to lug around the fuel. If you're gone in the mountains for a week or two, how much fuel will you need??
You can't depend on a feasible methanol distribution system of any kind in a third world country.
A truly autonomous power supply is solar powered. The sun shines everyday, everywhere (except for part of the year in a few high-suicide rate countries) so you'll always have juice and you never have to lug a fuel source around. I'm still waiting for an affordable solar powered solution for laptop mobility. This is TRUE portability.
rechargeable batteries DON'T last and the computer won't work (even plugged into the wall) once the batteries badly degrade. And if these fuel cells prove to be rechargeable indefinitely (or long nough to justify maintenance) then they might actually be worth keeping even AFTER the appliance they power goes to the landfill.
If your laptop doesn't work even with it plugged into your AC adapter, it has nothing to do with the battery. NOTHING. ALL laptops are powered directly by the DC power coming from the AC adapter. In fact, some have no protection (not even a diode) between the power supply and your motherboard. Trust me, I fried a few laptops when messing with portable power supplies (reverse current, overvoltage, stuff like that...) If the battery is fully charged and your computer is plugged into the holes in your wall, the laptop is completely bypassed.
Fuel cells don't last forever. In fact most of the prototypes now being tested are good for 500 hours. A Li-Ion battery is usually good for 1000-1500+ hours. And, there is waste involved with fuel cell systems. In fact, the waste will be MUCH greater than that produced by faulty or expired batteries caused by natural death. Methanol will be provided in little containers which you THROW AWAY. Moreover, we are not using NiCads anymore. Li-Ion is easily recyclable and relatively benign to the environment even if disposed of improperly. And think of all the gas you'll be wasting in your full-sized SUV running to the local Quickie Mart for a canister of laptop go-go juice.
autonomous everything!!
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Think of this - solar cells are VERY expensive. You will need approx 10kWh of solar electricity produced by those expensive solar cells to produce approx 2kWh of USEABLE electricity after the inefficiencies of a system you tout. In comparison, you only need approx 2.2-2.4kWh of solar electricity to produce 2kWh of useable electricity after storage in a Li-Ion battery or flywheel storage system. That means you could get away with 1/4 of the solar cells needed for a hydrogen based storage system. That's a lot of money considering the solar modules will end up costing 60-70% of the entire system cost.
The process of splitting water into hydrogen and oxygen, storing the hydrogen for later use and finally, recombining the hydrogen and oxygen through the fuel cell is only about 15-20% efficient. The process of storing the solar electricity directly into a battery or flywheel and obtaining that electricity for later use is 80-90% efficient.
Electrolyzers are not cheap nor are they maintenance free. Once you add the ancillary components to such a system (storage tank, fuel cell, etc), it gets very expensive, even more so than a flywheel or battery system.
So why tout hydrogen? For one it is supported by the current administration (read f*cking morons), and it allows energy co's to join the party (and still potentially maintain profits). Early (5-10 years) fuel cell systems will be powered by fossil fuels. Electrolyzer-based systems for homes will never be practical or affordable.
The quote should read "haven't been" Duh.
What surprises me most is that there hasn't been any attempts to maim our president yet.
Great, I make an observation, point it out and now I'm a troll. That is a damn bionic penis, by the way.
Is that a bionic penis!?
Is your professor a moron?
I thought O'Reilly is left-winged moreso than right. He's a proponent to gun control, environmentalism, and the right to abort.
Fox is an opinion piece and a hard right one at that. Their reporting sucks. The morning Fox n Friends show is so pro-Bush it makes me want to puke. I do have to admit though, the pure amusement content of the show sucks me to the idiocrisy more often than it should.
I think that should read "stop watching FOX News"
Amorphous panels produce enough power to offset the energy what was required to produce them in 4 years. It's less than 6 years for polycrystalline modules and 10 years for most monocrystalline solar modules. Nearly 100% of the terrestrial solar panels put into use in the late 70's/early 80's are still crankin and the quality of those panels are nowhere near that of current solar modules. Encapsulation technology has put solar panels in the class of concrete bricks - almost literally.
Ahhh, true, but isn't the best thing to do is avoid an accident altogether?? A smaller car is less likely to get into an accident because a) they are more nimble and agile and b) they are smaller, making collisions less likely because of reduced frontal/rear/side area. Simple physics would tell you that you are LESS likely to get into an accident and MORE likely to avoid an accident in a smaller, lighter vehicle. Is this worth anything??? If I went head to head with an Expedition at 40 mph, I don't think I would worry so much if I was in a Tercel, Camry, Ford pickup, or Toyota Highlander. Either which way, I'm fzuxked.
Great, so why don't you go buy an H2?? Or maybe something bigger? Typical "gotta have something bigger than everyone else to feel safe" mentality. Slave to idiocy...
Well, I just calculated the surface area of my Honda Insight (including the rear window). It was quick and dirty not taking into account the bulging corners and sharper-than-30-degree angled surfaces. I came out with 37 sq ft. If a module is 14% efficient (typical at the commercial level these days), it would yield approx 14 watts per sq ft. That would mean I could only get 518 watts from the entire surface area of my Insight minus the front windshield. Not bad but nowhere near the 2kW you calculated for the Prius. I realize your 17.4% vs. my 14% could make a difference but to a factor of four? Is the Prius just a heck a lot bigger than I thought?
Cruising at 65 mph on the freeway is relatively as efficient as driving in the city (stop and go vs. constant high speed). This is a HUGE variable so please no rebuttals. I'm trying to be general here.. So if you travel 65 mph on the freeway you'll travel 8.12 miles in 7.5 minutes. If you were in the city in stop and go traffic you would cover about the same distance - 8.12 miles on that same bucket of solar energy. Throw in some hills and a lot of wind and you may have to shave about 20%.
8 or even 6 miles from pure solar power every day? That's kick ass! Considering I only drive about 4,000 miles per year in my Honda Insight, solar power could supplement over half of the miles I travel every year! Heck, even if you drive 10,000 miles per year, that's still 20% from pure solar.
Who says solar cars are not viable? I say get those lame ass solar race cars off the road and start integrating some solar technology into hybrids with LARGER storage batteries. Japan, you listening??? (cause I know US car manufacturers sure as hell ain't).
Autonomous everything!
http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/11.05/start.htm l?pg=6
Hey JerkFace. Have you anything better to do than ridicule (with zero substance) other's posts? Batteries are essentially 100% recycled when the material is reclaimed and put back into the manufacturing process of anything. Li-Ion, PbA, and NiMH are virtually 100% recyclable. BTW, my numbers are not made up and are completely substantiated. Apparently you can't rebut with any numbers yourself. If I don't post fact what the fu*k is??
Ah, very true. I always thought the solar car race applied to furthering accomplishments in aerodynamics - and nothing more. The rules do make it difficult to innovate.
What the hell are thermal solar panels and wind gens made of? Homogenized peppertree juice?
Sue me.
Generally speaking, methanol is more toxic than any component in a Li-Ion battery. From a disposal standpoint, cartridges will have to be produced to transport and distribute methanol to laptop computers. You can't just have a jug of the stuff and expect to pour it into a laundry-type fabric softener receptacle. They will be recharged by canisters, similar to how butane recharges lighters, or CO2 cartridges replace air in a bicycle tire. One bottle may operate a laptop for 40 ours or so. That's 50+ bottles of waste compared to the waste of one Li-Ion battery. And these cartridges won't be made of simple plastics. They will have to incorporate some kind of metal to engage and connector system, so forget about throwing them in the "plastics" container at your nearest recycling depot. It will end up in one place and one place only - the landfill.
Li-Ion batteries, on the other hand, have a very ubiquitous network of depository stations all over the country, including Circuit City, Home Depot, Best Buy, WalMart, Sears, etc. http://www.rbrc.org/index.html?sp=true
All batteries are 100% recycled - from the plastic casing to the cathode and anode, to the gelled electrolyte - everything.
And yes, I do feel that people will be making special trips to the store to purchase these cartridges because they're all out of juice. Drive a car? There is additional unnecessary environmental onslaught directly connected to a fuel cell powered laptop society.
Uhhh, I never drank windshield wiper fluid or glass cleaner but I know I got it on my hands before. As for methanol, you don't wan't any of this stuff getting on your skin. Methanol is readily absorbed through the skin or mucus membranes. Once in the body it is converted by the liver to formaldehyde, a very poisonous chemical. And who the hell opens up there Li-Ion batteries? You're in a pipedream thinking you can just grab a gallon milk jug filled with methanol to fill your laptop fuel tank. If this ever becomes reality, you'll be buying specially made and approved cartridges or canisters (sold by laptop top co's) to refill your laptop. They'll be at least 10 times pricier per ml than your cheapo plastic jug o methanol. But check eBay for special methanol refill jugs for 1/4 the price, but like those cheapo ink refill kits, your laptop may not work!
Great, but I still don't see the benefit of the fuel cell over an extra battery or universal battery (70+ watt-hours). A truly mobile businessman would invest in a Centrino-equipped laptop, like an IBM. It can run for 7+ hours on a 55 watt-hour battery. An additional 3-4 lb universal battery (approx $300) would provide an additional 9+ hours. 16+ hours?? Yeah, some flights w/stopovers could be this long, but would you (or could you) be on a laptop for that long when flying?? If so, you're definitely an anomaly. Manufacturers don't market to anomalies..
You can't depend on a feasible methanol distribution system of any kind in a third world country.
A truly autonomous power supply is solar powered. The sun shines everyday, everywhere (except for part of the year in a few high-suicide rate countries) so you'll always have juice and you never have to lug a fuel source around. I'm still waiting for an affordable solar powered solution for laptop mobility. This is TRUE portability.
If your laptop doesn't work even with it plugged into your AC adapter, it has nothing to do with the battery. NOTHING. ALL laptops are powered directly by the DC power coming from the AC adapter. In fact, some have no protection (not even a diode) between the power supply and your motherboard. Trust me, I fried a few laptops when messing with portable power supplies (reverse current, overvoltage, stuff like that...) If the battery is fully charged and your computer is plugged into the holes in your wall, the laptop is completely bypassed.
Fuel cells don't last forever. In fact most of the prototypes now being tested are good for 500 hours. A Li-Ion battery is usually good for 1000-1500+ hours. And, there is waste involved with fuel cell systems. In fact, the waste will be MUCH greater than that produced by faulty or expired batteries caused by natural death. Methanol will be provided in little containers which you THROW AWAY. Moreover, we are not using NiCads anymore. Li-Ion is easily recyclable and relatively benign to the environment even if disposed of improperly. And think of all the gas you'll be wasting in your full-sized SUV running to the local Quickie Mart for a canister of laptop go-go juice. autonomous everything!!
Yeah, and so what? Who's going to buy a laptop just so they can use it on the plane? Either you're real lucky or your job sucks.