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NEC Unveils Methanol-Fueled Laptop
genericplacebo writes "Japanese computer giant NEC Corp. Monday revealed a prototype of a laptop computer that runs on a methanol fuel cell instead of a rechargeable battery, and said it will start selling it next year. NEC initially plans to introduce a computer with a fuel-cell system able to run for five consecutive hours on a single cartridge of methanol fuel, but also plans to make a PC within two years that can run continuously for as long as 40 hours."
I was already worried about the concepts of television, telephony, and high-fi merging entirely with that of the personal computer, now I have to worry about computers becoming strikingly similar to automobiles and weed-whackers?
Doesn't say how chunky the battery will be. Or how heavy it will be. Battery life is a Good Thing, but if it's gotta be at the price of portability, what's the point for a laptop?
Computers are already too unstable and crash-prone. I hate to think how it'll be when my laptop is busy drinking alcohol while I'm trying to work...
this means jack squat to me right now. I have an iBook that lasts about 4-5 hours on a full charge and to power it all I have to use are those little holes in the walls you may have seen.
Fuel cells WILL be a big deal, but right now you're retarted to buy one: electricity just workd too well already
So . . . how much will it cost to recharge/replace the fuel cell?
`which fortune`
Does this mean I get to use the carpool lane of the information superhighway?
Dare you to put an AMD in it.
The coolest voice ever.
I run on methanol, too.
Hope we won't see an increase of computer-enthusiasts among anonymous-alcoholics.
TOKYO - Japanese computer giant NEC Corp. Monday revealed a prototype of a laptop computer that runs on an ethanol fuel cell instead of a rechargeable battery, and said it will start selling it within a week. A number of other companies are developing similar fuel cells, which promise to power electronics ten times longer than the lithium-ion batteries currently in use. Also, users will be able to keep operating their computers by replacing the fuel cartridge or refilling with ethanol fuel, instead of recharging the battery with electrics. NEC initially plans to introduce a computer with a fuel-cell system able to run for ten consecutive hours on a single cartridge of ethanol fuel, but also plans to make a PC within two years that can run continuously for as long as 200 hours. Fuel cells produce electricity without generating pollutants, through an electrochemical reaction that uses oxygen, hydrogen and cress. Japanese companies are shaping up to be pioneers in fuel-cell technology. NEC rival Toshiba Corp. said in March it developed the world's first prototype of a ethanol-type fuel cell system to run notebook PCs. It also plans to commercialize its product in 2004. Among other leading Japanese micro fuel cell developers are Sony Corp (news - web sites)., Casio Computer Co. and Hitachi Ltd.
Some might think that fuel cell is the greatest thing since Lithium Ion batteries but its really another way of getting money out of the poor consumer. The current range of IBM R40 centrino notebooks can provide you with 4 hours of battery life.
Laptop makers are looking for the high profit margins that ink jet printer manufacturers enjoy. How much will these full cell cartrages cost? Around $5 a pop? Thats absurd, wouldn't you rather recharge the fucking thing!
There is no god
I suppose its a good thing to find alternatives for electricity and energy, but is this pratical. Having people fill up cartridge with gas in order to use their laptop. Unless there are as many refill stations as their are electrical sockets, I won't be getting one
and figured these fuel cells should be easy and cheap to refill, the price being a late night at Taco Bell. :)
This page was generated by a Flock of Attack Kittens for you.
but what the hell is methanol?
Methanol can be produced from organic waste products. I'd hate to think about having to go to the local sewer treatment plant and ask them to fill up my laptop.
Pete Carr Owner Chatmag.com
Consider if you really think the FAA will allow you to bring spare FUEL onto an airplane. I expect that the place where you really need longer battery life - an airplane - will be the one place where these are not allowed.
It must be that it will be easier to take extra flammable fuel on board an airplane than extra batteries!
Why would anyone use a battery if you can plug it into the little holes in the wall?
Mmm...alcohol fueled computer. One for you, one for me.
This adds a whole new level of meaning to crash and burn!
It uses METHanol?
Leak or vent even a little of that onto/into the user and he could go blind.
Even WITHOUT surfing porn sites. B-(
Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
So I'll have to pull start this laptop to boot it up?
-=- Many seek good nights and lose good days.
... to try to get one of these things through airport security, to say nothing of the 5 replacement cartridges I'll be carrying in my briefcase.
Ok heres whats going to bake your noodle about adopting fuel cells: Will fuel cells be proprietary in the same manner that printer cartridges are proprietary?
Will you only be allowed to buy your fuel cells from your laptop manufacturer for an overpriced ammount? And how long until they start emplacing mechanisms that ensure that your fuel cell can't be refilled outside of the factory? And worse yet, when will they start using the DMCA to enforce these policies?
Methanol (methyl alcohol) is produced from the distillation of wood and is a clear, colorless, volatile liquid with a weak odor that is somewhat sweeter than ethanol. Methanol is used in the industrial production of many synthetic organic compounds and is a constituent of many commercially available solvents. Products that are available in the home that contain methanol include: windshield wiper fluids and de-icers, antifreeze, glass cleaner, canned heat, paints, varnishes, paint thinners and removers. It can also be used in gasohol, which could present problems as people try to siphon the gas by mouth and accidentally ingest some. Methanol is a natural fermentation product and its concentration may be up to 300 mg/L in wine, and even higher in other spirits.
Methanol is well absorbed from the gastrointestinal tract mucosa as well as through the skin and lungs. Both inhalation and transdermal exposure can result in toxicity. The exact lethal dose for a human is not known. Doses as low as 25 cc of 40% methanol have been reported as causing toxicity. In other cases doses up to 500 cc have occurred with no side effects. Most sources consider the minimal lethal dose to be around 100 cc (1 g/kg). Poisoning with methanol may be accidental or intentional. There have been epidemics of methanol toxicity in cases where illicit whiskey has been sold to large populations or when the less expensive methanol was substituted for ethanol in drinks.
Once methanol is absorbed it is rapidly distributed in the body water with peak blood levels occurring in about 30 to 90 minutes after exposure. If ethanol is not present 2-5% of the methanol is excreted unchanged by the kidneys and a small amount is eliminated by the lungs. At low blood levels the half-life of methanol is 2-3 hours. Once the blood levels rise above 300 mg/dl, the enzymes that metabolize methanol become saturated and the elimination half-life increases to 27 hours. When this happens a greater amount of the methanol is eliminated unchanged by the lungs and the kidneys. During therapy with ethanol the half-life of methanol becomes 30-52 hours.
Methanol itself may cause inebriation but by itself in almost completely non-toxic. The methanol is metabolized by alcohol dehydrogenase to formaldehyde and then to formic acid. Clinical findings correlate better with formic acid levels than with methanol levels. It is these two metabolites that cause toxicity with formic acid being more responsible. It is the formic acid that causes the profound metabolic acidosis that is typical of methanol poisoning. The overall mortality of methanol poisoning is approximately 20% and among survivors the rate of permanent visual impairment is 20-25%.
...I can see where these fuel cells will find their way onto the "Prohibited Items" list at airports all over the USA.
As it stands, even simple Bic lighters are prohibited and will be confiscated from all checked baggage... I can only imagine what they'd do with a methanol cartridge.
Does it include a roll-cage?
which promise to power electronics ten times longer than the lithium-ion batteries currently in use.
Let's say the average laptop battery lasts 4-5 hours, as given in a previous iBook example. So that's 40-50 hours.
How many folks ever need to be in front of a laptop for 40-50 hours?
The coolest voice ever.
"Man dies from carbon monoxide intoxication after using laptop for five straight hours, more at 11"
Running a laptop which has a liquid as poth input and output sounds like a bad idea. I have enough trouble trying to keep my soda away.
Ceci n'est pas une signature.
This is just one of the times a story on a methanol-based laptop was covered.
Smelly laptops for smelly geeks.
How small a thought it takes to fill a whole life
Big Deal
I run 5+ consecutive hours everyday on methane.
I'd have an endless supply of fuel! My laptop would never go down.
Is methanol in any way related to methane?
If so, the 40 hour time limit could easily be cirumvented by attaching one end of a hose to the rear end of a cow and the other to the notebook.
What about travel on airplanes? Lots of people like to bring laptops on airplanes... And what about portability? If your fuel cell runs out and you need a replacement, how easy will it be to replace? Just imagine working late at night when your fuel cell empties.
These laptops could be good for those of us who go camping or for the army, for researchers who do not have an electrical outlet in close vicinity. Of-course for them to be useful, the fuel cells should last at least 50 hours at a time but for sure not 5. Once they do last for 50-100 hours a case can be made for them to be used by general public.
You can't handle the truth.
i'm just waiting for some idiot to try and connect N2O or similar to it.
Methanol (CH303) is the simplest alcohol, containing one carbon atom. It is a colorless, tasteless liquid with a very faint odor and is commonly known as "wood alcohol."
:) fuel:
Methanol is one of a number of fuels that could substitute for gasoline or diesel fuel in passenger cars, light trucks, and heavy-duty trucks and buses.
It's physical and chemical characteristics result in several inherent advantages as an automotive (or laptop)
Emissions from methanol engines/laptops are low in reactive hydrocarbons (which form smog) and in toxic compounds. Methanol-fueled trucks and buses emit almost no particulate matter (which cause smoke and odor, and can also be carcinogenic), and much less nitrogen oxides than their diesel-fueled counterparts.
It can be manufactured from a variety of carbon-based feedstocks such as natural gas, coal, and biomass (e.g., wood). Use of methanol would diversify the country's fuel supply and reduce its dependence on imported petroleum.
Methanol is much less flammable than gasoline and results in less severe fires when it does ignite.
It also is a high-octane fuel that offers excellent acceleration and vehicle power.
With economies of scale, methanol could be produced, distributed, and sold to consumers at prices competitive with gasoline.
Because of its outstanding performance and fire safety characteristics, methanol is the only fuel used in Indianapolis-type race cars. Following a series of methanol vehicle development and demonstration programs throughout the 1980's, a limited number of methanol passenger cars and buses are now commercially available. There are approximately 14,000 methanol passenger cars in use, mostly in Federal and private fleets, and about 400 methanol buses in daily operation, mostly in California.
Methanol is used in a number of consumer products, including paint strippers, duplicator fluid, model airplane fuel, and dry gas. Most windshield washer fluids are 50 percent methanol.
http://www.embbs.com/cr/alc/alc6.html
Where do you go to buy methanol? Your local chemist or drugstore? They won't have it, and even if they do they'll make you sign a poisons register and stuff. I suppose you can get a still knocked together and brew your own, but what are the chances you're going to clog up the cell with the funky brewing by-products. I suppose you're supposed to order it from chemical suppliers, but do you really want to wait a couple of days to use your laptop while they mail your order to you?
If they could get a fuel cell working off butane gas, now I'd buy one of those. Much handier and about a second and a half to fully recharge the cell. That'd be progress. This is a footnote.
One of the penalties for refusing to participate in politics is that you end up being governed by your inferiors - Plato
Already 3 posters that prefer batteries over fuel cell powered laptops. Well, I can't say I disagree that batteries are better, but there are exceptions. There are places where charging a laptop is not possible.
:)
I'm always going to a little coffee shop where the only power outlet is all the way in the back, so I can't recharge my battery. Now I have a laptop that lasts for about 4 hours between charges, but I can't always show up there with a fully charged battery. Why do I keep going there? Somebody upstairs has an open wireless router. Can you spell free broadband access?
But that's not the only case. I do small tech jobs, that sometimes take more than the 4 hours my battery lasts. It's annoying to alway hunt for a spare outlet. On one of my last jobs the guy had such a jungle of power wires under his desk that I was literally afraid to plug in anywhere..
And I doubt that the only power source for the laptop would be the methanol fuell cell. You might be able to use a battery or mains instead. But if that isn't the case, running exclusively off methanol is not that expensive.
Can you imagine the size of the explosion when windows crashes ?? LB
I see most people scoff at the idea of buying fuel cell cartridges for their laptop. Well, then this laptop isn't for you -- you have easy access to electricity. This is revolutionary because now you have a portable computer ANYWHERE, and you can recharge it with a little cartridge instead of lugging a huge generator with you.
Hello military and 3rd world applications. I can see a brand new market -- deploy some these bad boys, set up a wireless access point, and you have an instant internet community with no other power infrastructure.
This is another step in getting computing power to the third world and closing the digital divide.
Fuel cells are certainly a promising technology, and it is no suprise that they will eventually make their way into consumer devices. NEC apparently will offer this model as early as next year, but a few details are missing from the article.
How much space does the fuel cartridge take up compared with an average laptop battery? How much does the fuel cartridge weigh compared with an average laptop battery? How much is the initial fuel cell cost compared with an average laptop battery? How much is the incremental cost of refilling the fuel cartridge compared with recharging an average laptop battery?
It gets big points from the geek factor of being the first on your block to have a fuel cell powered laptop, but predicting whether it will 'cell' to more than a few who are desparate to impress requires a lot more information.
-- Adam
Bender.
20 January 2017: the End of an Error.
Methanol is a very potent neurotoxin, is relatively volatile, and has a much lower energy storage density than ethanol. Ethanol is relatively non-toxic by comparison (unless you imbibe very heavily), is less volatile, contains much more energy per mass or volume unit, and can be made and distilled to an acceptable grade by just about anyone, anywhere.
so how do we power one or more screens to go with that 40hr PC
Perhaps these could be made into cheaper UPSs?
Instead of developing this strictly for laptops, why not come up with a general-purpose methanol (or other) fuel-cell? One where you could have your choice of plug type, polarity, voltage, and AC or DC? Like one of those omni-usage wall-warts, but without the wall? If it were no bigger than, say, a six-pack, I bet it would be more than useful for travelers of any sort.
"A great democracy must be progressive or it will soon cease to be a great democracy." --Theodore Roosevelt
If the manufacturers want the mainstream audience to pick up on fuel cell tech, then the cells are going to have to be mighty cheap say 50c each, otherwise the cost of maintenence goes through the roof. If I were getting 200 hours off of a single charge, I don't think that asking a dollar or so is that bad.
Think of how much electricity is used after recharging your laptop battery 50 times. If they can make fuel cells cheaper than the electricty cost to charge the batteries for equivalent time.
Marathon LAN party? Though the user might crash before the laptop ran out of juice. And if it'll run 40 hours without a recharge, if you use it for 10 hours a day, that's 4 days you don't have to come out of the closet in the guest room at your mother-in-law's house.
I guess this laptop thing is a similar phenomenon.
"Mmm...alcohol fueled computer. One for you, one for me."
Considering that this computer runs on methanol and not ethanol, that would not be a particulary good idea.
Finally we would have had some fun at work.
Yeah, these machines are sweet, I'm writing this from one right now! *hic*
God damn them to hell for offering products to people. Bloody capitalist swine. We'll immolate them on a stack of their own fuel cells! Power to the people! Or not, in this case.
Methanol induces blindness.
That will make for some interesting tech-support calls
And maybe more Braille keyboards.....
Comment removed based on user account deletion
NEC claims 5 hr battery life. those who want this battery life can possibly buy transmeta based computer. you get lower speed and better battery life. how many of you would want Lithium battery and 1 GHz computer vs fuel cell and 2 GHz computer, if they both have same battery life and same cost? i would go with former.
oh brave new world, that has such people in it!
Before you start getting crazy ideas about alcohols for energy, know this: It would take all the farmland in the entire world to supply us with enough corn alcohol to fuel America's cars.
Our best bet is coal power using scrubbers (no output but Carbon Dioxide and heat) until we find a better source of electricity. Fuel cells in general require poluting the environment heavily or taking of unrenewable resources in order to get any good amount of power (check gasoline fuel cells and the expensive and environmentally costly catalysts for normal cells).
I doubt very much that this alcohol battery could hold as many joules as a lithium-ion within the same amount of space. Ask yourself how reusable it is as well before you get your hopes up.
Far be it from me to ever criticize slashdot for being unremarkable..
I don't really mind the CO2, but water and more heat with my laptop? I dunno....
Of course I'm guessing about the reaction and leftovers. Can someone tell me if I'm right or wrong?
Two Rules For Success:
1) Never tell people everything you know.
Do fuel cells produce gases? Even if they don't under normal circumstances, is it possible for a defective one to produce gases?
The reason I ask is - a small leak, and a spark, and you've got more to worry about than spilling the expresso on the keyboard.
Until its proven (and I don't see people combusting at the local Starbucks), I will have a fallback plan:
1. Get one of those heavy duty backup storage batteries used to jumpstart automobiles (these have 'cigarette lighter' style female plugs on them).
2. Get a rectifier to change the 12 Volt DC to 120 Volt AC - they come for automobiles with the cigarette lighter style male plugs.
3. When the laptop starts to die, pull out the backup power source: connect battery to rectifier and plug laptop into rectifier 120 Volt AC outlets - just like being at home, without all the yelling (you could even hide this setup in a backpack - unless, of course, you wanted to use the handy dandy 'jumper cable' attachments for crowd control(tm)).
Lodragan Draoidh
The more you explain it, the more I don't understand it. - Mark Twain
I think Taco Bell would make a great recharging station.
Of course, if the catalyst isn't capable of being "cleaned" or efficiently replaced then it's all just so much more useless crap...
Guess what? Nobody ever talks about it, but Lithium Ion batteries have a VERY finite lifetime; a FEW(very few) hundred discharge-recharge cycles; every time you discharge the battery, and the more you discharge it- the more of the battery you permanently destroy.
Companies that make these Lithium Ion cells(no foolin', that square battery contains a whole bunch of cells that are almost exactly AA size) won't sell them to you, of course- why? Because if you overload them, they catch on fire pretty handily, so you have to be a "certified" "solution provider" lest you blow yourself up. Mind you, the battery companies could install thermal/current fuses in the batteries, but they don't want to, because it conveniently lets them control the market, and gives them an avenue of escape if a pack for some camcorder or digicam has serious problems- they can point the finger at that company.
So, even though Panasonic still makes the cell used by my Powerbook Lombard, and even though you cannot buy new Lombard/Pismo batteries(they're no longer made, period), I can't fix my lombard's battery.
Please help metamoderate.
YUO
Flatulence- the smart choice! Talk about a renewable resource! I'm sure we'll all want to own a laptop with a seatbottom power source. Heck, we just convert our cars, and presto! Exxon Stations are replaced by Taco Bells. It gives the term "plugged in" a whole new meaning. Why isn't Nader "behind" this?
Scruting the inscrutable for over 50 years.
How long do you think that the printer ink refillers start marketing knock off fuel cartridges and "self fueler" fuel purifiers which filter camp stove quality wood alcohol into laptop grade fuel?
Direct Methanol Fuel Cells (DMFC)
The direct methanol fuel cell is a variant of the PEM fuel cellwhich uses methanol directly without prior reforming. The methanol is converted to carbon dioxide and hydrogen at the anode. The hydrogen then goes on to react with oxygen as in a standard PEM fuel cell.
Anode Reaction: CH3OH+ H2OCO2 + 6H+ + 6e-
Cathode Reaction: 3/2O2 + 6H+ + 6e- 3H2O
Cell Reaction: CH3OH+ 3/2O2CO2 + 2H2O
These cells are expected to operate at around 120C, which is slightly higher than the standard PEM fuel cell, and give efficiencies of around 40 per cent. One drawback is that the low temperature conversion of methanol to hydrogen and carbon dioxide needs a larger quantity of platinum catalyst than in conventional PEM cells. This increased cost is, however, expected to be more than outweighed by the convenience of using liquid fuel and the ability to function without a reforming unit. The technology behind direct methanol fuel cells is still in the early stages of development but it has been successfully demonstrated powering mobile phones and laptop computers, potential target end uses in future years.
This message brought to you by the Council of People Who Are Sick of Seeing More People.
HOMOS and ANAL COX are too.
Imagine methanol powered vibrators.. longer porno shoots and more powerful vibrators.
or a laptop version of the FUFME
Some people have just brought up the idea of the "razor / Razor blade" problem where we'll be sold the fuel cell cheap then scapled on fuel.
:)
I wonder if there will be fuel cell refill kits available anytime soon...
I can just see Joe Sixpack drilling a hole in the side of a fuel cell, poring some methanol in it, not sealing it proberly, then getting his balls blown off when his hotter-then-the-center-of-the-sun AMD chip spontaneously ignites the leaking fuel...
Methanol will just blank out the screen...
Sure, but what about heat?
Reading some information on various fuel cells, it mentions various types, the coolest being the Direct Methanol Fuel Cells (DMFC) which runs at about 120-190 degrees F (about 50-100 deg C) which would require their own heat problems, which are already a big deal with laptops. Aside from all the "what about on airplanes" questions, I'm wondering about how well the laptop will run at those temperatures. They'll have to swap out some components comming standard on laptops nowdays (s-video/etc) in exchange for fans.
If you want longer battery life, you can get more batteries, so the only real advantage I see is they're safer for the environment in the long run.
I'm thinking I'll wait until they become more widestream and they have some of those issues worked out before I jump on that wagon.
"When will this FP stuff stop?" "After the great growing..." "The great growing?" "Yea, when people grow up."
Thank god it's not fueled by ethanol.
... Two more hours of laptop time, or get drunk.
If it were fueled by ethanol I'd always come back to the two choices
Unfortunately batteries are still crap enough that after a certain amount of recharging they develop a memory. Note if your cellphone is of a certain age now it won't have even nearly the life it used to. Now with cellphones nowadays the batteries have tended to become cheaper to replace (I remember mid-90's when to get a new battery for my cell it was going to cost me around £100) at around £30, but laptops as far as I know are still far more expensive to do so for.
Fuel cells on the other hand won't have such a problem, allowing you a constant and reliable battery life, something I know I would like.
ALl this doesn't mean I'm on board. I have many doubts about the pricing as someone pointed out, and whether you can top them up yourself or if it's a one off deal each time. But it will have advantages.
Do you mean batteries like this?
I have never had trouble finding batteries for old laptops. If you need one, you can find one no problem.
Mod down posts with a "Free Mac Mini/iPod" sig, they're spam!
All rechargeable wear out. That's Chemistry.
As for the Cells I am sure you could find some and Fix the battery. There are places On the Net that will do it for you. Goggle it.
Li-Ion do not like many things. To much current,Too much voltage, heat, cell imbalance, over discharging. The explode quite mighily when they are unhappy. That is why you can not get them at Radio Shack. Now let me get back to my Battery Charger softwre before before fuel cells make me unemployed.
Why not make it use propane? Coleman could come out with a cool looking and rugged computer for camping. When you were done computing, you could detach the canister, hook it up to the stove and make some s'mores.
JET Program: see Japan, meet intere
doesn't the site mention a 40-hour version for PCs in 2 years...?
I'm surprised at how many slashdotters are suspicious about this technology.
Methanol is *extremely* cheap to make. We are talking about buying a gallon or two for less than a dollar. Yes, it is flammable but not like gasoline. There isn't a risk of explosion. Do you ever worry about your lighter exploding in your pocket? Yes, its poisonous but only if you drink it. Ever drink glass cleaner or windshield wiper fluid? Didn't think so. Its sort of like that. Its much worse to drink gasoline (we use it all the time in cars and how many people are poisoned by that?) and opening a laptop Lithium-ion or Nicad battery and eating the contents is far worse.
I'm surprised at how happy people are with laptop batter performance these days. You are lucky to get 4 hours, especially if the battery is old. YOu can get more, but the batteries get very heavy! Methanol, on the other hand, is quite light.
Fuel cells produce electricity without generating pollutants, through an electrochemical reaction that uses oxygen and hydrogen.
Hmm, call me sceptical, but I'd think it'll still generate waste...
The two ways they can distribute the fuel (I assume) is in a cartridge of some type which then gets thrown away when empty - which would be considered a pollutant right? Or in some sort of packaging which you then then use to refill your fuel cell - and the packaging of *that* then becomes a pollutant.
Doesn't the combustion of methanol produce water vapor and carbon dioxide?
Biodiesel will work in modern diesel engines with NO modifications. The technology does exist to shift away from petroleum.
www.biodiesel.org
www.hempcar.org
You know, nail clippers are "approved" and they snatch those before you go on a plane...
I cannot believe that "they" will ever allow a flammable substance such as methanol onto our airlines.
And yes, I realize that hard liqour is flammable and served on planes, but it is not nearly as volatile as pure methanol is.
Karma: Can there be a void?
.. -. - . .-. .-. --- -...
Waiter, two shots for me and three for my laptop!
...
Darling, the six-pack in the fridge is not for me - it is for my notebook, believe me!
Honey - I had to go to the bar - my laptop run out
of fuel
That way, you can go into any bar and order a round of drinks for all the laptops.
Subj sez it all
Octane rating is how its called the fuel resistance to detonation.
The octane rating of a fuel is what most people are familiar with, but there seems to be a lot of confusion surrounding it. In simple terms the octane number you see at the pump is the average of two octane numbers; the Research Octane Number (RON) and the Motor Octane Number (MON) or (RON + MON) / 2. This final octane number is sometimes referred to as the Anti Knock Index or AKI. This pump octane number is a measure of the anti- knock characteristics of a given fuel.
MON and RON are determined by standardized ASTM laboratory tests. The details of the tests are not as important as what they mean in terms of performance. Low to medium-speed knock characteristics are determined by the Research (RON) method, while high-speed and partial throttle heavy load knock characteristics are determined by the Motor (MON) method. MON testing is conducted under more stringent conditions with the timing on the test engine advanced and run with a higher inlet air temperature, so the MON number tends to be lower but also more valid for high-performance applications. There are a number of more valid tests that have been developed to determine the anti-knock characteristics of fuels used in high performance engines, but the aren't in general use at this point so we are stuck with the old reliable pump octane number.
I bet Homeland Security (aka the Gestapo) won't allow these on a flight.
-- Will program for bandwidth
It would be cool if we could use ethanol instead of methanol in a pinch. Imagine flying long distances in coach class. You could buy bottles of booze and keep your laptop going indefinitely!
:-)
"Excuse me, what's the highest proof you sell on this flight?"
I must need new eyeglasses, I could've sworn that headline said "methadone-fueled."
Passanger: I'll have a nice glass of Bordeaux, and my laptop will have a vodka straight-up.
"It's the height of ridiculousness to say for those 9 lines you get hundreds of millions."
Windows 2000 and XP run continuously for VERY long without needing to be restarted. Here's my home server's uptime...Wow, looky there. Now lets not make this into one of those "My uptime/penis is bigger then your uptime/penis" wars, but just come away knowing that you, and the original comment are nothing but illinformed trolls.
I'll wait for the nitrous version and then install a rear wing and a big exhaust tip (to make it sound faster).
...if you fly your own airplane.
Seriously, all you geeks out there need to try having a few flying lessons. We need more private pilots in this country. If you've got the "right stuff" you owe it to yourself to learn how to fly. And no, you don't have to be rich either. I only make about $35k per year and I could even afford to buy my own single engine airplane. A modest one only costs as much as a new Chevy pickup truck and is a hell of a lot more fun.
Methanol is one of the most toxic liquids around. Why wouldn't NEC develope an ethanol based fuel cell which could potentially run on vodka or rubbing alcohol ? Does one less carbon molecule produce that much more electricity ?
If the dollar is an "I owe you nothing", then the Euro is a "Who owes you nothing." - Doug Casey
Well you can forget about boarding an airplane with a flammable liquid for starters.
As for the printer industry. If your stupid enough to go for the cheapest printer without researching the TCO, well you deserve what you get!
Competition will force at least some of the manufacturers to make their cartridges refillable. The rest will attract the "chumps" as the printer industry and mobile phone carriers still do.
Hey guys, just checking in to post some lame joke about how MY COMPUTAR WILL RUN ON ALOCOHOL AND SO DO I! LOLERS, ONE FOR YOU, ONE FOR ME! even though ingesting methanol will blind and kill a human being. Hey, it ends in "anol", it's probably the same thing; it can't be that different! So wish me luck as I embark upon this journey of terrible humor at the expense of my dignity.
Am I rite guys?
Woo, alcohol is the next step in computing...FLAMMABLE COMPUTERS.
www.google.com
So, even though Panasonic still makes the cell used by my Powerbook Lombard, and even though you cannot buy new Lombard/Pismo batteries(they're no longer made, period), I can't fix my lombard's battery.
I too atempted to order Panasonic cells to repair my Thinkpad 770 battery. No luck - they're sold for "approved applications" only. I have to say it's absolute bullshit. LI-ion batteries last me about 14 months.
My laptop runs on an old car battery when I run it out on the back porch. It isn't much of a laptop anymore, of course. I bought it at a bankruptcy auction for a dollar and I'm just too cheap to round up the actual 'power pack' for it, or spend the huge amount for a replacement NiMH battery. So I tore it open, put on a common 1/8" audio jack to feed in the voltage, and it runs happily now on whatever 12 volt supply I feed it.
I'm looking for a tiny enough distro of Linux to put on it that has actual features, i.e. a C compiler and vi at a minimum. It's only a 386SX-25 and it only has 4 megs of RAM.
plans to introduce a computer with a fuel-cell system able to run for five consecutive hours on a single cartridge of methanol fuel, but also plans to make a PC within two years that can run continuously for as long as 40 hours
So, everyone will wait for the 40-hour model, so the 5-hour model won't sell, so the 40-hour model won't get developed.
Sure, it sounds cool to any of us nerd types. But is this really ever going to be useful outside of niche markets like the military?
Currently, you can get several hours of battery life off a system that you can recharge using outlets that are spaced roughly ten feet apart across the entire industrialized world.
For fuel cells, you need cartridges (after all, no mainstream user is going to go pouring methanol into their computers themselves). That means a serious distribution infrastructure, because without that little cartridge your system is dead (well, we'll assume it will always run off AC in a pinch). You need vending machines, a good proportion of electronics or grocery stores and Kwik-E-Marts, etc., all stocking a standardized set of cartridge sizes.
How many hours does your system need to run for this inconvenience level to be worth it? Consider your TV remote or some other non-rechargeable gizmo. Not 5 hours, and I'd say not 40 either. More like a month.
And how long before airlines say "Sure, it's only a few hundred degree heating element, a volatile liquid, and a system designed to work at sea level. C'mon in!"
It's challenging to look past the thrill of a new solution to the practical side. I'm sure there are solutions to the problems I listed, but it's all years off yet.
You know, battery life on notebooks really bugs me... No matter what advancements in battery technology there is, no matter how many energy saving features (eg. ACPI) there are, battery life stays very close to the 3 hour mark...
Why the hell do they keep doing that??? It's like notebook makers all get together and say: "With this new technology, we can double the run-time of our notebooks... Better make the battery half as large..." Is this some sort of scam to get people to buy PDAs? My 486 notebook ran just as long as my brand-new notebook! Why don't manufacturers even try to increase the battery life?
Better yet, why should I get this new technology, when it's just going to have approximately the same battery life as the oldest notebooks? I know they are promising 5 hours, but I'd bet they'll reduce that to 3-4 hours by time they hit shelves, and I bet the real-life batter time is closer to 3 hours as well...
Maybe it's just that I'm the only one on the planet that wants a notebook that will work longer than 3 hours between recharges??? Must not be, because Sony seems to be doing well with their double-battery notebooks (hot-swapable), so somebody else must want longer life. Why not reduce the power drain for notebook components rather than going to the fastest technology when it is just effecient enough to allow you to maintain the same run-times?
You know, it's time I opened my own computer company just to do this all-too-obvious stuff... VCs welcome!
Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
Apparently you think rechargeable batteries last forever? I've sent three laptops that would still be in use today to the landfill because rechargeable batteries DON'T last and the computer won't work (even plugged into the wall) once the batteries badly degrade. And if these fuel cells prove to be rechargeable indefinitely (or long nough to justify maintenance) then they might actually be worth keeping even AFTER the appliance they power goes to the landfill.
That's a big problem. If a fire does start it, it is tough to fight.
Also, most windshield washer fluids are not 50 percent methanol. They are mostly water and soap. There are alcohol-based washer fluids, but the smell when you use them makes its way into the passenger and is unpleasant.
Trick I learned is to find the heavily Asian part of town. They'll usually have "import stores" that sell knockoffs of batteries imported from Taiwan for next to nothing. They probably come from the same manufacturer as the name brand batteries, but they cost about a quarter of the price. I used to get vibrating Li+ batteries for my Nokia 5100 (which Nokia didn't even make) for about $10, when Nokia wanted $90 for a Li+ battery that didn't even vibrate. Actually most laptop batteries are just a bunch of Li+ cells connected together. If you can pry open your battery case without destroying it, you could probably replace it (though if you manage to kill yourself doing this, forget I said anything. :)
recombining hydrogen with oxygen produces water. Where does it go???
eyes-only
In order to keep outsiders confused (and hence continue to remain ousiders), we slashdotters like have a little fun with the moderation system at times. So here's a little decoder chart for you.
If a comment is actually saterical/funny (see grandparent) then the appropriate slashdot bizzaro-world moderation is +1 Insightful.
If a comment is actually a troll (see great-grandparent)in which the basic premise is "This sux. Because I said so." And then the poster ends up replying to himself with the exact opposite conclusion, then the proper moderation will be +5 Insightful.
If a comment has a genuinely unique perspective on the situation, then of course the correct moderation is to leave it languishing as-is.
If you need to do some karma-whoring then do a quick google search on the current topic and post the results. Your diligence will earn you a handsome +5 Informative as your reward.
Well you get the idea. Further examples are left as an exersize to the reader.
P.S. Or sometimes we also like to believe that by modding a comment +1 Insightful it will become that way.
Commit this information to memory. Message will self destruct in 5 seconds. End Transmission...
"The cell, weighing two kilograms when built in a computer, will be available to notebook makers in about two years. It can already operate for five hours on 300 cubic centimeters of methanol, according to the report."
That works out to about 5 pounds total for the cell and the fuel.
Excellent, now I can sit at the local mexican restaurant ALL DAY, and my laptop will keep up as long as the refriend beans and beer keep coming!
You are also doing more stuff with your new notebook which can mean more disk access, bigger LCD screens, etc. Bet you weren't watching dvd movies or divx off your 486 notebook. Also I don't think battery technology has improved much over the years, at least not at the rate that other components have improved. We're still at lithium-ion based, far as I know and i could be way off on this, which began seeing mass usage in the early 90s and I've still seen some nickel-hydride ones in new electronic gadgets.
what the heck is going on? what if you cant recharge? i mean methanol is not just something you can plug into a wall for, i really dont think this idea will be accepted for a LONG time because of that. also, something that should be added to this is that where can you get methanol? will you be carrying a big gas tank around just to "fill up" your computer when it gets "low". i just cant see it happening. sorry NEC
That way, any laptop that now runs from an AC
adaptor powersupply could be methanol powered.
Damn! Gas prices have risen again, and now my car AND laptop are running on empty!
What would Benjamin Franklin say? You mean he stood out in the rain with that kite, and almost got himself killed by lightning so we could have electrical powered stuff? All thats left is his picture on the $100.00 bill. I say, giving up on electrical powered stuff is a bad idea. No? Well, just try and crank your gasoline-powered lawnmower this weekend, and come back here with a fresh load of cusswords and tell me you really want your laptop powered by anything that besmacks of "fuel". Now, Solar-Powered laptops, that's the way to go!
1) Make a PORTABLE BEOWULF CLUSTER OF THESE! 2) ???? 3) PROFIT! And always remember. In Soviet Union, THEY make mobile clusters of YOU!
That lump to the right and behind it it the reformer, it spans the entire length of the laptop behind it. Fuel Cell Laptop
Alan
Entirely besides the point.
First off, that's a negative on the LCD screen... My old 486 had an LCD screen almost as big as my current notebook.
As for disk access, processor, and other improving technology, it's completely besides the point here.
Okay, battery technology doesn't move at Moore's Law speeds, but so what? Technology should be getting more effecient, as batteries improve... It seems like notebook makers are intentionally trying to use the components that maintain the same battery life. If they wanted to have the battery last 6 hours they could, at the expense of a _slightly_ faster processor, hard disc, etc., OR they could increase the size of batteries a bit. It just seems that somebody is going to great lengths to preserve the exact status quo... Obviously it's not some evil conspiracy, which is why I posed the question... I'm not sure why every single notebook manufacturer is going for almost the exact same battery life, but I'd really like to know why that is.
Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
It's actually pretty simple. They have vast teams of market researchers determining what 'everyone' wants. Or rather determining what single product or smallest possible group of products will generate the most revenue.
They have figured out that three hours is about the minimum for acceptable use from a laptop battery. Any less and people complain too much.
Of course battery time isn't the major selling point for laptops (at least of the ads are any indication). They are always touting the weight and the 'thinness' of the laptop. Remember the commercial that has the woman pulling out a sheet of paper folding it in half and setting the laptop on it?
They aren't selling to geeks, they are selling to people who don't really like computers, and don't mind vastly reduced usability for not having as much weight to carry.
Think about it. Three hours, maybe a little more is about the amount of time it takes to cross the U.S. in an airplane, if you take into account that you aren't allowed to use your laptop for some of it.
So what manufacturers do is design the battery to be as small as possible and still have a three hour life. Everything else is likewise designed to use that battery up in three hours.
How often have you seen the debate here about laptop functionality vs size and weight.
I for one would like a laptop with at least an 8 hour battery life, with modular, removable devices for cdrom, floppy, zip, and at least one extra battery slot. As well as being able to sacrifice any one or all of the above for more batteries, or sacrifice the extra battery for a second drive (dvd or burner). It would be much heavier, and much thicker. For myself I wouldn't mind the extra weight, but a lot of people would.
My place of employment just got some new laptops. have a single battery compartment, no using two batteries. They have a single modular compartment, for using either floppy or cdrom, but if you need both your screwed. If you need more than three hours, you're screwed.
The laptops they replaced were a little better. You could have cdrom XOR floppy XOR an extra battery.
The oldest are the best of the lot. They have a built in CDROM (unfourtnatly not removable), and two bays. One for a battery, and the other for either a floppy, or an extra battery. Even they are far from ideal for my purposes, but I liked them best.
But as I said the trend is toward smaller machines. The newest laptops are less than half the thickness of the oldest ones, and about a quarter the weight.
But to answer your original question as to why? It's because that's what market research people say will maximize their profits. Yes many others want more stuff in a laptop at the cost of weight, but the researchers say that focusing on smaller, lighter laptops will bring in more revenue than heavier bulkier ones. There isn't enough market for what geeks often want to make it worth their while.
Great! Now I will have a use for all that bootlegged , smuggled, cheap booze from russia which burns with a green flame!
excuse me but I missed something.. once the fuel cell is over do we have to change it? or recharging it will do the job?
also, how often will you have to change the fuel cell for a new one?
-- There are two kind of sysadmins: Paranoids and Losers. (adapted from D. Bach)
This is just a mockup, but this one actually works. According to this article (in Japanese), the latter weighs 2kg and runs for 5 hours on 300ml of 10% methanol.
... They had cars with batteries and now they have computers operating with fuel.. There's something peculiar with those Japanese guys.
The worst I've heard of though was about a truck carrying perfume crashing in India several years back and 200+ people dying from drinking the loot they made off with. I guess it was the scented kind of perfume, and not the potable kind...
A-Bomb
Sweet! Now all it needs is a FAT EXHAUST!!
"You can justify anything by putting it in quotes, adding a famous name and making it a sig" - Albert Einstein
At last! The very thing I dreamed about in high school! A fart powered computer!!
Wow! The only thing that scares me is, how do you "gas" it up?? (please, no goatse.cx references!)
maybe
There are places where the networks are not touching,and there are places where they are-Boeing's Lori Gunter
Now I can have a windoze machine that will actually crash and burn!
one word...KAAABOOOM
--"Life's a virgin, a bitch is too easy"--
I guess now my nickname here on Slashdot actually means something. :P
Ah am not a crook! (\(-__-)/)
of your own body's enzymes.
Your body uses roughly the same metabolic process to metabolize alcohols, whether ethanol, methanol, or isopropanol. They are turned into various metabolic by-products, that are either metabolized further, or are toxic.
Methanol becomes formic acid.
Isopropanol becomes formaldehyde
Ethanol becomes acetylaldehyde (and is further metabolized).
The first two alcohols have metabolic byproducts are quite poisonous (as you might well guess... formic acid is used by some ant species to deter predators... formaldehyde is bad for obvious reasons).
If you drink the methanol from your laptop, your body will convert it to formic acid. Formic acid is directly toxic to the optic nerve, and you will go blind.... hence the term "blind drunk" from people drinking wood alcohol from homemade stills.
Note that methanol poisoning is far from the only problem with homemade stills... people that distill their own booze often do it with field-expedient materials (rather than proper glassware)... like using automotive radiators as condensors, or brewing their corn mash in big iron tubs. The former method creates problems because the soldered joints in the radiator cause heavy metal poisoning (lead, mercury) due to the metal leaching into the distillate. The latter method produces iron toxicity (used to be common in South Africa, where the product was referred to as "Kaffir Beer.")
A little chemistry can be a dangerous thing if you don't know what you're doing.
Even if a man chops off your hand with a sword, you still have two nice, sharp bones to stick in his eyes.
Can you carry flamable liquids on airlines? That's often where you need to longest battery life.
I don't know anything about this, but would ethanol made from corn be an alternative to methanol for fuel cells?
THIS SPACE FOR RENT
water:
H - OH
methanol:
H - CH2 - OH
ethanol:
H - CH2 - CH2 - OH
Allright, I'll distill my own. Bring it on! ;)
-Looking for a job as a materials chemist or multivariat
There's an industry initiative to recycle batteries from laptops, phones and other consumer products. This does not apply to Alkaline batteries, so you'll have to keep discarding those AAs. Spent NiCAD and LiON batteries can be recycled at Home Depot, Target, Radio Shack, Best Buy, Sears or Wal-mart or for more information click here.
2 CH3-OH + 3 O2 -> 2 CO2 + 4 H2O
i.e. 2 mols (64 grams) Methanol will produce 4 mols (72 grams) of water. Where does the water go? (And when will /. allow <sup></sup> tags?)
Does anyone know what the energy balance is from that reaction? There are some slides here but my chem classes were too long ago. In other words - considering the actual efficiency of these fuel cells, how much water will be produced for, say, an energy of 50 Wh, which is kinda typical for a modern LiIon battery?
open (SIG, "</dev/zero"); $sig = <SIG>; close SIG;
In civilized countries the legal age for
alcohol is 18, not 21.
TA
I am the only one who read "menthol battery"? :)
Do you know how many vodkas per hour a sexy female attendant must pour into an obnoxious Business Class male passenger to keep him from groping her, these days? Multiply by a whole planeload. There, that's quite a lot of booze, eh?
So you can see that the teeny little alcohol cartridge of the obnoxious passenger's laptop is an infinitesimal addition. Why, by the time the plane lands, the breath of the guy is an explosion hazard by itself.
Then again, your argument, dumb as it is, might actually be considered. The Transportation Safety Authority has shown a preference for hiring people rejected as unsuitable by the fast-food retail industry, and God knows what these idiots will invent to keep us "safe".
--
Mad science! Robots! Underwear! Cute girls! Full comic online! http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/
"...but also plans to make a PC within two years that can run continuously for as long as 40 hours."
;)
Unless, of course, its running Windows
...a5cii think methanol was methane so.....
http://www.apps23.dsl.pipex.com/Methane-ol.JPG
Am I an artist? or am I an Artisté
I beg to differ here. The faster a HD has to spin, the more power it eats up, the brighter an LCD screen is the more power it eats up and the newer screens are definitely much brighter than the older ones.
And since battery technology hasn't really improved much, its all about how much power can be stored in the battery. Notebooks are also getting smaller which means sometimes the battery packed into it is smaller which means less space to store the chemicals required to hold the stored energy or some shit like that. (not an expert on battery, electricity storage, and chemical based energy generation)
Maybe because there are only about 10 factories/companies in the world that are capable of manufacturing these machines. Many of the big names like IBM, Apple, Dell outsource the production of these machines to companies like Flextronics, Quanta, Acer.
The components used in the production for all the different companies are mainly the same and made by pretty much the same bunch of people.
You know the scene in Armageddon where they were trying to escape and the shuttle wouldn't power up and the comsonaut said.
American components, Russian components, all made in Taiwan.
And I do agree with you, would be nice if vendors would put a bigger battery at the expense of some other component to significantly increase the battery life and hopefully not increase the weight significantly
isn't boarding a plane with a laptop already a hassle? good luck getting this onboard!!!
It's still besides the point, simply because OEMs aren't forced to put the fastest hard drive, brightest LCD (I hate bright screens, I want mine with far less contrast but it's not very adjustable), the fastest processors, in their systems. My who question was what OEMs do that. They could just stay a version or two back, and the battery life would increase dramatically... The fact bleeding-edge technology uses up more power is ENTIRELY besides the point.
Another thing I said is that devices should be becomming more effecient, not less.
HARD DRIVES: With the technology of today, you can easily have a spidle speed of a decade ago, but with the data densities of today, that would seem quite quite fast, but not be rotating any faster. In addition to the same rotation speeds, motors have gotten more effecient, chips have gotten more effecient, etc.
LCDs: Brighter doesn't mean more power. Newer lighting technology has come that wasn't around long ago. LEDs are brighter than ever, yet using up less energy. Other lighting technology like flouresent has become much better, while being lower power, and lower heat than incandesent.
PROCESSORS: As manufacturing gets better, the paths get smaller, the voltage drops, etc. Newer chips doesn't mean more heat. More heat is an indication that chip manufacturers are pushing the chips faster than the manufacturing process, rather than keeping the heat down, and not pushing out the MHz quite so fast.
That's blatantly wrong. Battery technology has improved SIGNIFICANTLY. I said that batteries haven't improved at Moore's Law speeds, but still, they have vastly improved.
That's just not true. The notebooks now are FAR FAR larger than anything seen a few years ago. Even my "little" 4lbs 1.2GHz Notebook I have now is more than twice as heavy as my 486 notebook, and a bit larger as well (despite the fact that this is just about the smallest one I could find today).
Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant