You completely exagerated the point I was trying to make, and added an insulting note at the end. What's up with that? What did I do to you?
The world *is* a pretty sad place. A lot of really bad stuff is happening. It would be nice if I could bury my head in the sand and ignore it like you suggest.
Are you really arguing that it's okay to waste time on frivilous things when you could be doing something that isn't? It's a good rationalization, but I don't buy it.
There's a time and place for everything. My suggestion was that their effort could be better placed, nothing more.
I hadn't given enough thought to the idea that some people might be able to make a solid contribution to GUI design, but not much to Cancer research. So it makes more sense to do what you can, rather than trying to do something you can't.
> my reaction was to the implication that because you do not see the value in their project, others won't either
I thought it was a fair question, even if it might have been badly put. If more than one person doesn't see the value in it, then perhaps it's value should be re-examined?
Why be insulted because someone questions your motivations? A well placed question can be an opportunity for more than just an argument. It's a chance to see something you might have missed. Who knows, there might be something valuable there for you!
I tried to suggest they could better spend their time. I did make some suggestions, and I did choose not to use it. If they had understood my point and reevaluated their priorities, they would have made their own priority list. Nobody really needs my suggestions and they'd probably be disregarded anyway.
I've made my work freely available, and paid for the bandwidth. I don't feel a lot of respect is being granted me. It probably comes down to you, and others, don't value my contributions highly so no respect is granted. I'm doing the same. I don't value yet another bit of eye candy as being particularly worthwile, so I don't grant much respect.
> In other words, why should they do what you want?
That's a great question! There's no reason why they should. I merely pointed out that I thought their priority list needed to be rethought. They really need to "Think outside the widget".
I probably won't benefit from it either way. GUI's have all the features I ever wanted now. If they did 'reach a bit higher' I might benefit from it some day. I doubt it will happen though.
> I asked because assigning value to a project is relative.
My contributions have no effect on the value other people place on GUI design, or on how I value it. It might serve to enlighten how I value things, but that isn't why you asked. You disagreed with my argument and instead of offering a rational rebuttal you sought to belittle the author.
> I'm certain many people don't list Adventure and D&D character generation as high on the list of priorities
You asked. They get downloaded so someone must think they have some value. You ignored all the other things I mentioned.
I'm sorry if someone pissed in your cornflakes this morning but don't belittle me, as you put it, "for having a differing value set"
I can't see how you can prioritize GUI tweaks higher than any number of other things. If you want to have a rational discussion I'm all for it. If not, just ignore the rest of this and we can both move on to more positive things.
Is there anything fundamentally new or different in the GUI? Is there anything that makes it any better than what was in the Apple design bible from 15 years ago? The only new thing I've seen is gesture recognition. I don't think anyone has implemented it except as a browser plugin. Even that is only a minor improvement in speed. I've not seen anyone do any human factors research to see if any GUI features will reduce carpal tunnel syndrome, etc. Was there any usability research done to see how to really improve the GUI? Or how to improve it for the handicapped?
> you could enlighten everyone by presenting your project for the open source community?
I just wrote a database replicator for the GPL database Sqlite. It's going through testing right now before it's released as a GPL program.
I wrote a program to help match people to pets for a local animal shelter. I donated it to the local non profit shelter.
I ported the old game 'Adventure' to linux, and wrote character generators for D&D, and host them free on my servers.
I pay for all the connectivity, electricity, and equipment to host one of the most popular costuming web sites on the internet. Everything on it is free.
I think I contribute sufficiently to be able to bitch with a clear conscience.
Now, I'd like you to explain to me why it matters what my contributions are? How does what I've contributed change the validity of the question I've posed?
> just be thankful that someone else is using their time and expertise to create something that you're going to download and take for granted.
I run Gentoo at home, without a window manager.
Gnome, and almost all the other window managers, are bloated beyond all need. Who freakin needs windows that wiggle? It's a waste.
They're going down the same stupid path Microsoft is. They don't have anything useful to put into the program, rather than realizing it and moving on, they just keep adding more useless kruft. Maybe they just keep doing it because they're having a pissing contest with KDE.
Linux shouldn't play the "me too" game. We should innovate and lead. Unfortunately they're not even winning in the "me too" game.
If they wanted to do something useful there are a TON of things available.
One that comes to mind instantly is writing a replacement for X Windows. It makes it very difficult to do gaming on Linux. Why don't they port Gnome to run against frame buffer (or something similar), so we could run a GUI without X? Linux could take the pc gaming niche market if it performed well. They already have the knowledge for the task so it wouldn't have much learning curve. DirectX would be a lot easier to emulate without X.
>Last I heard, adults can smack kids, but kids aren't allowed to smack adults...
You have that one backwards. If my kids hit me that's ok. They're a minor and not responsible for their actions. If they hit me, I'm responsible for getting hit! If I hit them it's child abuse. My daughter hurt herself why playing at a friends house. I arrived to pick her up and found an ambulance there. I went in to see what had happened. The cops arrived and immediately assumed I had abused her. If her friends mother hadn't told them I wasn't even present at the time I would probably be in jail now. I don't live in "the projects" either.
He can't even create a clear, simple, and easy to navigate web page for the project. I have little confidence he can create an entire new user interface methodology.
A modified version of the mail server software keeps a database of people who email you. When it receives a mail from someone new to you instead of accepting the email it returns 'call again later'. If it's a spammer with an smtp bot and not a real email server they will not try to send the mail again later. If it's a real message on a real server it will retry again in a few minutes. Kills most of the spam at the expense of delaying the first email message you receive from a new sender.
Hey, Watch the name calling if you want to have a rational discourse. "Gay ass?" Would you like it if I called you a kid without a clue?
The answer to your question is: I don't waste time recompiling all the time. I only did it once. I emerged the packages I needed when I built the system. I left out all the stuff I didn't need so my system was more secure and ran better with limited resources, not because I wanted to speed tweak it until the processor melted down. Your point is exactly correct about updating and recompiling everything all the time. I pointed it out on their forums. The real utility for me was to be able to put together a linux box without all the stuff I didn't want.
The big drawback to portage, and the rest of these package systems (and for that matter multi user revision control systems), is every time someone checks in a new revision of anything who knows how many other packages just got broken?
The perl stuff was the worst. Someone changed something in a library someplace and half the stuff I tried to build that used perl blew up. I'm sure it just gets worse with bigger packages, with even more dependencies. Especially with scripted languages that the dependencies aren't obvious until runtime.
You're right, I'm sure for a lot of them building a usable computer isn't the object.
Binary Package installation is a pain in the ass because there are a lot of developers all heading in different directions. If your package works perfectly even for one distro you have how many desktop managers you might potentially have to install a menu option in? At least KDE and Gnome, if not more. Then add interdependencies between libraries and external programs. It won't get better until someone takes the lead and unifies Linux like LSB is trying to do. This won't help, it will simply make the same mistakes faster.
I've used Gentoo's portage system. This just seems to be more of the same concept.
Having every component of an application updated weekly will ensure half my builds won't compile twice in a row, let alone give me a repeatable environment to debug in.
At a minimum you need orbital insertion with a payload, the bigger the better. Then you build a space station. Then you build robots to mine the 100,000 ton asteroid and build a NICE space station. You could even sell iron ore to whoever wants some. Hey, delivery is cheap. "Got big open spot where we can drop this?":)
I wonder if you can use reentry heating to smelt it?
I built a NAT/Firewall box from an old pentium 2, 66 mhz, with 64 meg of RAM. It only has that much RAM because I scrounged it from other boxes. It has no hard disk, the linux distro and software boot from a 3.5 inch floppy disk. I get very fast download speeds through it and it firewalls nicely
http://www.freesco.org
I took another p2 133 mhz box and put gentoo linux and samba on it. I added a cheap hard disk and made it into a file server box for my wife and I. We have our mp3's on it.
None of these actually cost me any cash. They were all replaced by newer boxes or given to me.
Slashdot Mirror
You completely exagerated the point I was trying
to make, and added an insulting note at the end.
What's up with that? What did I do to you?
The world *is* a pretty sad place. A lot of really
bad stuff is happening. It would be nice if I
could bury my head in the sand and ignore it
like you suggest.
Are you really arguing that it's okay to waste
time on frivilous things when you could be doing
something that isn't? It's a good rationalization,
but I don't buy it.
There's a time and place for everything. My
suggestion was that their effort could be better
placed, nothing more.
True.
I hadn't given enough thought to the idea that some
people might be able to make a solid contribution
to GUI design, but not much to Cancer research.
So it makes more sense to do what you can, rather
than trying to do something you can't.
Thanks!
> my reaction was to the implication that because you do not see the value in their project, others won't either
I thought it was a fair question, even if
it might have been badly put. If more
than one person doesn't see the value in it,
then perhaps it's value should be re-examined?
Why be insulted because someone questions your
motivations? A well placed question can be
an opportunity for more than just an argument.
It's a chance to see something you might have
missed. Who knows, there might be something
valuable there for you!
I tried to suggest they could better spend their
time. I did make some suggestions, and I did
choose not to use it. If they had understood my
point and reevaluated their priorities,
they would have made their own priority list.
Nobody really needs my suggestions and they'd
probably be disregarded anyway.
I've made my work freely available, and paid
for the bandwidth. I don't feel a lot of respect
is being granted me. It probably comes down
to you, and others, don't value my contributions
highly so no respect is granted. I'm doing the
same. I don't value yet another bit of eye candy
as being particularly worthwile, so I don't grant
much respect.
> In other words, why should they do what you want?
That's a great question!
There's no reason why they should.
I merely pointed out that I thought their
priority list needed to be rethought.
They really need to "Think outside the widget".
I probably won't benefit from it either way.
GUI's have all the features I ever wanted now.
If they did 'reach a bit higher' I might
benefit from it some day. I doubt it will
happen though.
> I asked because assigning value to a project is relative.
My contributions have no effect on the value
other people place on GUI design, or on how
I value it. It might serve to enlighten how I
value things, but that isn't why you asked.
You disagreed with my argument and instead of
offering a rational rebuttal you sought to
belittle the author.
> I'm certain many people don't list Adventure and D&D character generation as high on the list of priorities
You asked. They get downloaded so someone must
think they have some value. You ignored
all the other things I mentioned.
I'm sorry if someone pissed in your cornflakes
this morning but don't belittle me, as you
put it, "for having a differing value set"
I can't see how you can prioritize GUI
tweaks higher than any number of other things.
If you want to have a rational discussion
I'm all for it. If not, just ignore the
rest of this and we can both move on to
more positive things.
Is there anything fundamentally new or different
in the GUI? Is there anything that makes it
any better than what was in the
Apple design bible from 15 years ago?
The only new thing I've seen is gesture
recognition. I don't think anyone has
implemented it except as a browser plugin.
Even that is only a minor improvement in
speed. I've not seen anyone do any human
factors research to see if any GUI features
will reduce carpal tunnel syndrome, etc.
Was there any usability research done to
see how to really improve the GUI? Or how
to improve it for the handicapped?
>> Mozilla and Firefox could use some help."
>Who needs them? Graphics are over rated. If you're >so concerned about eye-candy, you don't need a >graphical browser. Use Lynx.
Are you really trying to argue we don't need
a browser without graphics? or one that's less
full of bugs? or one that's free?
You're just arguing for argument's sake.
Did you have anything serious to contribute?
> you could enlighten everyone by presenting your project for the open source community?
I just wrote a database replicator for the
GPL database Sqlite. It's going through testing
right now before it's released as a GPL program.
I wrote a program to help match people to pets
for a local animal shelter. I donated it to
the local non profit shelter.
I ported the old game 'Adventure' to linux, and
wrote character generators for D&D, and
host them free on my servers.
I pay for all the connectivity, electricity,
and equipment to host one of the most popular
costuming web sites on the internet. Everything
on it is free.
I think I contribute sufficiently to be able
to bitch with a clear conscience.
Now, I'd like you to explain to me why it matters
what my contributions are? How does what I've
contributed change the validity of the question
I've posed?
> just be thankful that someone else is using their time and expertise to create something that you're going to download and take for granted.
I run Gentoo at home, without a window manager.
Gnome, and almost all the other window managers,
are bloated beyond all need. Who freakin needs
windows that wiggle? It's a waste.
They're going down the same stupid path
Microsoft is. They don't have anything useful
to put into the program, rather than realizing
it and moving on, they just keep adding
more useless kruft. Maybe they just keep
doing it because they're having a pissing
contest with KDE.
Linux shouldn't play the "me too" game. We
should innovate and lead. Unfortunately they're
not even winning in the "me too" game.
If they wanted to do something useful there are
a TON of things available.
One that comes to mind instantly
is writing a replacement for X Windows.
It makes it very difficult to do gaming on Linux.
Why don't they port Gnome to run against frame
buffer (or something similar), so we could run a
GUI without X? Linux could take the pc gaming
niche market if it performed well. They already
have the knowledge for the task so it wouldn't
have much learning curve. DirectX would be a lot
easier to emulate without X.
Wine could use some help.
Mozilla and Firefox could use some help.
etc...
This isn't the improvment we're looking for, move along, move along...
Since, if it's not mine, that's about what it's worth.
You can buy them off the shelf:
http://www.skylights-of-hawaii.com/page13.html
>Last I heard, adults can smack kids, but kids aren't allowed to smack adults ...
You have that one backwards. If my kids hit me
that's ok. They're a minor and not responsible
for their actions. If they hit me, I'm responsible
for getting hit! If I hit them it's child abuse.
My daughter hurt herself why playing at a friends
house. I arrived to pick her up and found an
ambulance there. I went in to see what had
happened. The cops arrived and immediately
assumed I had abused her. If her friends mother
hadn't told them I wasn't even present at the
time I would probably be in jail now. I don't
live in "the projects" either.
>Are there any distributions out there that can auto-mount SMB shares as home directories without heavy modification?
The performance would be awful, and if the network
went down your computer would be worthless. This
is a bad idea
He can't even create a clear, simple, and
easy to navigate web page for the project.
I have little confidence he can create
an entire new user interface methodology.
Is everyone aware that every thing they do at
work belongs to their employer?
A modified version of the mail server software
keeps a database of people who email you. When
it receives a mail from someone new to you instead
of accepting the email it returns 'call again
later'. If it's a spammer with an smtp bot
and not a real email server they will not try
to send the mail again later. If it's a real
message on a real server it will retry again in
a few minutes. Kills most of the spam at the
expense of delaying the first email message
you receive from a new sender.
Hey,
Watch the name calling if you want to have
a rational discourse. "Gay ass?" Would you
like it if I called you a kid without a clue?
The answer to your question is: I don't waste
time recompiling all the time. I only did it
once. I emerged the packages I needed when
I built the system. I left out all the stuff
I didn't need so my system was more
secure and ran better with limited resources,
not because I wanted to speed tweak it
until the processor melted down. Your point
is exactly correct about updating and
recompiling everything all the time.
I pointed it out on their forums.
The real utility for me was to be able to put
together a linux box without all the stuff I
didn't want.
The big drawback to portage, and the rest of
these package systems (and for that matter
multi user revision control systems), is every
time someone checks in a new revision of anything
who knows how many other packages just got broken?
The perl stuff was the worst. Someone changed
something in a library someplace and half the
stuff I tried to build that used perl blew up.
I'm sure it just gets worse with bigger packages,
with even more dependencies. Especially with
scripted languages that the dependencies aren't
obvious until runtime.
You're right, I'm sure for a lot of them building
a usable computer isn't the object.
Binary Package installation is a pain in the ass
because there are a lot of developers all
heading in different directions. If your
package works perfectly even for
one distro you have how many desktop managers
you might potentially have to install a
menu option in? At least KDE and Gnome,
if not more. Then add interdependencies between
libraries and external programs. It won't get
better until someone takes the lead and unifies
Linux like LSB is trying to do. This won't help,
it will simply make the same mistakes faster.
I've used Gentoo's portage system. This just seems
to be more of the same concept.
Having every component of an application updated weekly will ensure half my builds won't compile twice in a row, let alone give me a repeatable environment to debug in.
Gah! What a nightmare.
Could not connect : Can't connect to local MySQL server through socket '/var/lib/mysql/mysql.sock' (11)
Thanks :)
Only 2 megabit? from a cable modem? I get much
better than that on cat5. Is it the wireless part
that's the limiting factor?
I had already wired the house before wireless
came out, but now my wife has moved her system.
There's this wire running on the floor...
Where do I get a $15 linksys router?
Never seen one for that price.
The reason for x86 is economy of scale makes
it cheap. I've priced out others and they aren't
nearly as inexpensive.
At a minimum you need orbital insertion with a payload, the bigger the better. Then you build :)
a space station. Then you build robots to
mine the 100,000 ton asteroid and build a NICE
space station. You could even sell iron ore
to whoever wants some. Hey, delivery is cheap.
"Got big open spot where we can drop this?"
I wonder if you can use reentry heating to
smelt it?
LOL! Just goes to show how long it's
been there and how often I have to mess with it.
It's been so long I forgot the specs on the
machines!
I built a NAT/Firewall box from an old pentium 2,
66 mhz, with 64 meg of RAM. It only has that
much RAM because I scrounged it from other boxes.
It has no hard disk, the linux distro and software
boot from a 3.5 inch floppy disk. I get very fast
download speeds through it and it firewalls nicely
http://www.freesco.org
I took another p2 133 mhz box and put gentoo linux and samba on it. I added a cheap hard disk and
made it into a file server box for my wife and
I. We have our mp3's on it.
None of these actually cost me any cash. They
were all replaced by newer boxes or given to me.