I think so. I'm a Windows user, but I've tried a lot of the more popular distros off and on since around v5 or so of Redhat if I remember correctly.
I'm a developer, so I'm not afraid of getting my hands dirty with a little configuring. I do quite a bit of tweaking to base installs of Windows, but those tweaks are for performance or preference, not to make things work.
I find Linux is just fine for most daily tasks, and usually has a comparable way of doing almost everything I do in Windows. The problem is getting them installed and running.
I fault Linux in the usability arena for two reasons. Having to mess with config/ini files to make things work post "install", and how it reacts when something does go wrong.
If I install a piece of software, it should work after the install. I shouldn't have to change keyword/value pairs in a config file to complete the install.
If I screw up my video drivers, put me in the GUI at 640x480 and let me try again. Making me resort to command line hacking when I don't have a clue where to start only gets Linux one thing...uninstalled.
I guess one other thing I'd suggest to Linux developers is, at some point...release version 1.0!
Regardless of whether you are 100% certain it's perfect or not, which looks more inviting to the average user:
My Program 0.1.00.37 Beta
My Program 1.0 Beta 1
Just look around Sourceforge, is anything at v1 yet?:)
Why do people think that the command line [osnews.com] is *not* "user friendly"? Do we write books by pointing and clicking at icons, avatars, and pictures? Except under amazing cirumcstances (Steven Hawking, the blind, etc) would you hire an author that did? Then why a system administrator?
I'm sitting here unable to fathom who would ask such a question. I can envision the interview now...
"Do you ever use a GUI?"
"Well of course"
"Well, we here at ABCD Company believe that system admins should always use the command line because of it's inherent efficiency. Why property an object, change a value, and make the change permanent in 3 clicks when one can simply pull up a command line, edit a config file with a command line editor, stop the service via the command line, then restart the service via the command line?"
Symantec products became increasingly good at hogging system resources a few years ago. Prior to that, I was a big fan of theirs. Give AVG (www.grisoft.com) a shot. I've been running it for awhile and haven't experienced any noticeable slowdowns whatsoever.
As a Windows user and professional developer, it'd take more than games to make me switch. At one point I thought games were the only things holding me back, turns out I was wrong.
This past weekend I installed Fedora.
Installation compared to WinXP? Comparable.
Post installation (configuring things, tweaks, etc.) not even close.
I got some help in forums from some long term Linux users, but quickly realized the need for help wasn't going away anytime soon. I've installed Linux with each new major version since around version 5 or 6 if memory serves correctly. The distros I've tried the most were Redhat and Mandrake. I prefer Mandrake, but Fedora was suggested by the forum Linux users.
Immediately I became aware that my ATI Radeon 9700 Pro wasn't going to have solid drivers under Linux. Argue all you want, but in WinXP I never have stability issues with it, and it's as fast as can be.
My Logitech MX500 worked in the most basic sense of the word, but wasn't nearly as full featured as it is within WinXP. I could tweak a few things, but that meant hacking up files with a text editor. Not something I, or most any other Windows user is willing to do to change some simple settings on a mouse.
It didn't take long to figure out that almost everything that didn't work out of the gate was going to take some text file tweaking. Windows computing has surpassed that, and to capture more users, Linux is going to have to as well. Long time Linux users see this as a more powerful setup, but Windows users (even those who WANT to convert) see this as a solid brick wall.
Some of the other posters here mentioned issues regarding support for joysticks. Add to that almost any controller I'd be buying at Best Buy or Circuit City, and you've got another decently sized issue to overcome.
Screw-ups. This is a major pet peeve of mine. If I install the wrong video drivers in Windows, it's smart enough to realize it, and drop me to 640x480x16. Note that I'm still in the GUI, and have access to the net from any installed web browsers, etc. If I do that in Linux, I'm staring at a non-GUI based UI and am there until I can figure out how to hack through things via a command line to get up and running again. This sucks big-time IMO.
Installs - Why is it that with a lot of Linux software, immediately after the install I have to hack up some configuration files? Why can't the installer give me a couple of screens with the necessary options and allow me to choose then? From there, it can install the software with the settings I've chosen. If I have to configure the stuff via a command line after the fact, what's the installer for? Heck, I'll just copy the files myself and save half the download.
Chip[sets] - Why is it that in Linux I have to know what chip/chipset is being used in my NIC, or modem, etc. but in Windows I don't? In Windows (assuming it doesn't just work on it's own) I locate, download, and install the drivers. At most, I reboot, and my new hardware is now working. In Linux, I need to damn near know how to build the thing to get it to work. That's gotta go.
With regards to drivers, as someone who's technical, I realize companies don't always create Linux drivers for their hardware, and creating drivers isn't the easiest task in the world. As a user however, I could care less. If you want me to use Linux (and I think that's the main point of the topic here) you need to have drivers for everything Windows has drivers for. And not just barely working hack 'em in vi drivers, I'm talking drivers comparable to their Windows counterparts.
I realize that Linux is often viewed as being more stable, secure, and even faster than Windows. But, if I have to be a mechanic to drive the best car, I think I'll take the bus.:)
The graphics get you, the gameplay keeps you. If the game looks like pong, but is fun to play, who'll know? Too many gamers (I'm one of them) will ignore it if it looks like it's from a decade ago.
*sigh* I'm so glad to be conversing with someone of your extreme intellect.
I did read your post, so let's get that part out of the way. Obviously, you didn't read mine since you didn't answer any of the questions I asked.
Your exact statement was:
No, there's simply nothing in the Windows world that's a quarter as complete as a Linux distribution.
Tell me, Idiot, where in my response, where I proved your statement inaccurate, did you determine that I hadn't read your post?
An in summary, maybe you should:
a - limit your name calling to when your playing with friends.
b - Stop pretending you have some type of authority over other posters.
c - Think before you type.
I just can't wait to see the wisdom coming from your fingers next.
I've always thought that this is one of the biggest selling features for Linux. You don't just get a kernel, you get a whole distribution that aims to provide all the software you need. That sort of thing simply doesn't exist in the Windows world.
Even if you go out and buy or download all the extra software you need to make your Windows computer useful as a desktop, there's no guarantee that it works together and no one will take responsibility for fixing it if the software conflicts.
Some PC sellers like to bundle lots of software, but it tends to be either crappy software (MS Works) or crippled "beginner" versions of expensive commercial software.
No, there's simply nothing in the Windows world that's a quarter as complete as a Linux distribution. It's an amazing amount of software, and when done right, amazingly well integrated.
Just where's my guarantee that all of the software will work together flawlessly when I'm using a Linux distro? Whose responsibility is it again to ensure there are no conflicts?
When you say "crappy software (MS Works) what exactly is it that's so "crappy"? What features do you use that don't come with Works? I personally don't use ANY office products, but am interested to hear what extended features you require that aren't included in Works.
When you say:
there's simply nothing in the Windows world that's a quarter as complete as a Linux distribution.
I'd like to know what your thoughts are with regards to Adobe Photoshop, Adobe Illustrator, Getright, Visual Studio, Nero, Digital Camera support, optimized ATI drivers, wireless NIC drivers, need I go on?
My point being, many things are still very non-intuitive in Linux. Even if it means copying the way Windows does something Linux is going to have to change to gain decent amounts of desktop market share.
Like it or not, Windows is the standard. To overtake it, Linux will have to meet and improve on the standard; NOT just with regards to security but also with regards to the user interface.
Automatic Update? Put the following into your crontab at an interval of your choosing:
On Debian/Red Hat with APT:
apt-get update && apt-get dist-upgrade
On Red Hat with up2date:
up2date -u
On Mandrake:
urpmi.update && urpmi --auto-select
And so on.. Now obviously these could be imrpoved (i.e. mail the admin if it fails), but auto-updating is a lot easier under Linux.
A lot easier than what? In Windows I check the box that says automatically install updates. If I remember correctly, that box may actually be checked by default.
On Debian/Red Hat with APT:
apt-get update && apt-get dist-upgrade
On Red Hat with up2date:
up2date -u
On Mandrake:
urpmi.update && urpmi --auto-select
Take a look at that, any idea why a TON more people run Windows?
"nVidia takes good care of their Linux drivers, ATI puts them out as an afterthought."
That's obviously not an issue for the large majority of gamers, myself included. One of the reasons (just one) I don't run Linux is lack of support for newer games. I'll admin though, with the Unreal series, and Americas Army, things are starting to look up.
No offense but, you're in the minority when it comes to gamers. Those who want to play games and have machines that out of date typically play Counter Strike.
I've been using Windows since Windows 3.0. I'm not a sysadmin, I'm a professional developer and home user. I run a small network at home, less than 10 boxes total.
The original post I replied to seemed to insinuate that this is a frequent occurrence, which even your post seems to indicate otherwise.
Between home and work machines, I'm typically running Microsoft Office, SQL Server, Visual Studio (and.NET), newer games (Unreal Tournament 2003/2004, etc.), software to do video editing, photo album software, and some other misc tools and utilities. I apply all of the latest MS patches and don't even remember the last time a patch or service pack has taken one of the applications down.
I'm not saying it's never happened, with that many lines of code, fixes are bound to cause other bugs. I'm simply saying it's more of a rare occurrence than a frequent one.
No, actually, I have applied a ton of MS patches. Look at what you are pointing to though.. an NT (2 versions back) OS.
That page itself was:
"Last Updated: Tuesday, October 09, 2001"
Slashdot Mirror
I think so. I'm a Windows user, but I've tried a lot of the more popular distros off and on since around v5 or so of Redhat if I remember correctly.
:)
I'm a developer, so I'm not afraid of getting my hands dirty with a little configuring. I do quite a bit of tweaking to base installs of Windows, but those tweaks are for performance or preference, not to make things work.
I find Linux is just fine for most daily tasks, and usually has a comparable way of doing almost everything I do in Windows. The problem is getting them installed and running.
I fault Linux in the usability arena for two reasons. Having to mess with config/ini files to make things work post "install", and how it reacts when something does go wrong.
If I install a piece of software, it should work after the install. I shouldn't have to change keyword/value pairs in a config file to complete the install.
If I screw up my video drivers, put me in the GUI at 640x480 and let me try again. Making me resort to command line hacking when I don't have a clue where to start only gets Linux one thing...uninstalled.
I guess one other thing I'd suggest to Linux developers is, at some point...release version 1.0!
Regardless of whether you are 100% certain it's perfect or not, which looks more inviting to the average user:
My Program 0.1.00.37 Beta
My Program 1.0 Beta 1
Just look around Sourceforge, is anything at v1 yet?
"Do you ever use a GUI?"
"Well of course"
"Well, we here at ABCD Company believe that system admins should always use the command line because of it's inherent efficiency. Why property an object, change a value, and make the change permanent in 3 clicks when one can simply pull up a command line, edit a config file with a command line editor, stop the service via the command line, then restart the service via the command line?"
Get real
Symantec products became increasingly good at hogging system resources a few years ago. Prior to that, I was a big fan of theirs. Give AVG (www.grisoft.com) a shot. I've been running it for awhile and haven't experienced any noticeable slowdowns whatsoever.
As a Windows user and professional developer, it'd take more than games to make me switch. At one point I thought games were the only things holding me back, turns out I was wrong.
:)
This past weekend I installed Fedora.
Installation compared to WinXP? Comparable.
Post installation (configuring things, tweaks, etc.) not even close.
I got some help in forums from some long term Linux users, but quickly realized the need for help wasn't going away anytime soon. I've installed Linux with each new major version since around version 5 or 6 if memory serves correctly. The distros I've tried the most were Redhat and Mandrake. I prefer Mandrake, but Fedora was suggested by the forum Linux users.
Immediately I became aware that my ATI Radeon 9700 Pro wasn't going to have solid drivers under Linux. Argue all you want, but in WinXP I never have stability issues with it, and it's as fast as can be.
My Logitech MX500 worked in the most basic sense of the word, but wasn't nearly as full featured as it is within WinXP. I could tweak a few things, but that meant hacking up files with a text editor. Not something I, or most any other Windows user is willing to do to change some simple settings on a mouse.
It didn't take long to figure out that almost everything that didn't work out of the gate was going to take some text file tweaking. Windows computing has surpassed that, and to capture more users, Linux is going to have to as well. Long time Linux users see this as a more powerful setup, but Windows users (even those who WANT to convert) see this as a solid brick wall.
Some of the other posters here mentioned issues regarding support for joysticks. Add to that almost any controller I'd be buying at Best Buy or Circuit City, and you've got another decently sized issue to overcome.
Screw-ups. This is a major pet peeve of mine. If I install the wrong video drivers in Windows, it's smart enough to realize it, and drop me to 640x480x16. Note that I'm still in the GUI, and have access to the net from any installed web browsers, etc. If I do that in Linux, I'm staring at a non-GUI based UI and am there until I can figure out how to hack through things via a command line to get up and running again. This sucks big-time IMO.
Installs - Why is it that with a lot of Linux software, immediately after the install I have to hack up some configuration files? Why can't the installer give me a couple of screens with the necessary options and allow me to choose then? From there, it can install the software with the settings I've chosen. If I have to configure the stuff via a command line after the fact, what's the installer for? Heck, I'll just copy the files myself and save half the download.
Chip[sets] - Why is it that in Linux I have to know what chip/chipset is being used in my NIC, or modem, etc. but in Windows I don't? In Windows (assuming it doesn't just work on it's own) I locate, download, and install the drivers. At most, I reboot, and my new hardware is now working. In Linux, I need to damn near know how to build the thing to get it to work. That's gotta go.
With regards to drivers, as someone who's technical, I realize companies don't always create Linux drivers for their hardware, and creating drivers isn't the easiest task in the world. As a user however, I could care less. If you want me to use Linux (and I think that's the main point of the topic here) you need to have drivers for everything Windows has drivers for. And not just barely working hack 'em in vi drivers, I'm talking drivers comparable to their Windows counterparts.
I realize that Linux is often viewed as being more stable, secure, and even faster than Windows. But, if I have to be a mechanic to drive the best car, I think I'll take the bus.
I've always made it a point to never mix pleasure with family. ;)
It is true. That version # is for Windows XP, which obviously comes after Windows 2000. Just look in your ASCII table. ;-)
The graphics get you, the gameplay keeps you. If the game looks like pong, but is fun to play, who'll know? Too many gamers (I'm one of them) will ignore it if it looks like it's from a decade ago.
LOL The sad thing is, this is true in so many cases.
Not what I had in mind either. I'd not tried it since I like IE and WMP, but I did know the option was supposedly there.
Thanks for posting what it really does.
Oh, ok. I didn't know I was relying on volunteers...people with tons of motivation to tell me to RTFM. That makes all the difference in the world.
I'm just asking this because I couldn't tell if you knew it was an option.
When you go to Add/Remove Programs, click the button labeled "Add Remove Windows Components". They are both listed there.
I did read your post, so let's get that part out of the way. Obviously, you didn't read mine since you didn't answer any of the questions I asked.
Your exact statement was:
Tell me, Idiot, where in my response, where I proved your statement inaccurate, did you determine that I hadn't read your post?
An in summary, maybe you should:
a - limit your name calling to when your playing with friends.
b - Stop pretending you have some type of authority over other posters.
c - Think before you type.
I just can't wait to see the wisdom coming from your fingers next.
Just where's my guarantee that all of the software will work together flawlessly when I'm using a Linux distro? Whose responsibility is it again to ensure there are no conflicts?
When you say "crappy software (MS Works) what exactly is it that's so "crappy"? What features do you use that don't come with Works? I personally don't use ANY office products, but am interested to hear what extended features you require that aren't included in Works.
When you say:
I'd like to know what your thoughts are with regards to Adobe Photoshop, Adobe Illustrator, Getright, Visual Studio, Nero, Digital Camera support, optimized ATI drivers, wireless NIC drivers, need I go on?
You really REALLY should think before you type.
My point being, many things are still very non-intuitive in Linux. Even if it means copying the way Windows does something Linux is going to have to change to gain decent amounts of desktop market share.
Like it or not, Windows is the standard. To overtake it, Linux will have to meet and improve on the standard; NOT just with regards to security but also with regards to the user interface.
A lot easier than what? In Windows I check the box that says automatically install updates. If I remember correctly, that box may actually be checked by default.
Take a look at that, any idea why a TON more people run Windows?
"nVidia takes good care of their Linux drivers, ATI puts them out as an afterthought."
That's obviously not an issue for the large majority of gamers, myself included. One of the reasons (just one) I don't run Linux is lack of support for newer games. I'll admin though, with the Unreal series, and Americas Army, things are starting to look up.
3 years ago, your argument might have held water. I think you'll find that opinion slipping quickly now days.
No offense but, you're in the minority when it comes to gamers. Those who want to play games and have machines that out of date typically play Counter Strike.
Yes he did. And...I don't remember applying them. :)
I've been using Windows since Windows 3.0. I'm not a sysadmin, I'm a professional developer and home user. I run a small network at home, less than 10 boxes total. The original post I replied to seemed to insinuate that this is a frequent occurrence, which even your post seems to indicate otherwise. Between home and work machines, I'm typically running Microsoft Office, SQL Server, Visual Studio (and .NET), newer games (Unreal Tournament 2003/2004, etc.), software to do video editing, photo album software, and some other misc tools and utilities. I apply all of the latest MS patches and don't even remember the last time a patch or service pack has taken one of the applications down.
I'm not saying it's never happened, with that many lines of code, fixes are bound to cause other bugs. I'm simply saying it's more of a rare occurrence than a frequent one.
No, actually, I have applied a ton of MS patches. Look at what you are pointing to though.. an NT (2 versions back) OS. That page itself was: "Last Updated: Tuesday, October 09, 2001"
I don't remember ever applying a MS patch that messed up another piece of software.
"It says it runs on Windows 98 or better and I'm running Linux and it won't work..." What's that tell you? ;-)