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Windows Could Lose Media Player in Europe?
Chris Gondek writes "If Microsoft cannot settle an antitrust case brought by European Union regulators, the company may be ordered to remove Windows Media Player as an integrated feature of the dominant Windows operating system, at least for personal computers sold in Europe.
The European Commission also could order Microsoft to include rival media players with Windows to make those products as easy for users to access as Microsoft's own music and video player."
In fact this is so cool, why don't you post it again in a couple of days so we can all enjoy it for a second time?
Oh I see you already have done. Carry on then.
Why should Microsoft be required to offer Real's whoreware product, laden with spyware and annoying popups and notifications. Including a Real codec for WMP and QuickTime is one thing (and something the companies would have to provide), but requiring malware to be forced upon every user is something else. Even if it was a nice program like WinAmp, I still don't think they should be required to bundle their competitors programs. Requiring compatibility through codecs is okay.
Of course, nobody *had* to use Real OR WMA. MPEG is viewable on any OS out of the box. The the Real and QuickTime players are free, and QuickTime is easy to install to boot (save for the annoying upgrade notices, another thing I don't want "bundled" with my OS).
Did the European Commission ever consider people don't want the alternatives? I don't need extra little icons in my task tray, I don't need spyware, I don't need notifications of news or Pro versions. Please, let us install our own crapware.
at not a web browser?
seriously, which is more ingrained and used every day?
every day http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Random
Windows won't lose media player, hax0rs will just lose another source of free computing power.
BS, including a competitors product with your own???... Here, take this copy of Paint Shop Pro (bundled with Photoshop) hope you come back to buy PSP again..
Europe's a pretty big place... if they lose it there, they might never see it again.
This is a special excite
This
they sure do like their music. Good at it, too.
What's wrong with a company pushing people to use their products? I am not a fan of Microsoft, but why shuold they be forced to include third-party software?
What is your penile percentile?
(AP) Microsoft Corp, responding to the unbundling of Media Player from Windows, announced today a broad partnership with RJ Reynolds where a carton of some of RJ Reynold's famed brands, such as Camels, will be offered with Windows Longhorn for Home edition.
"We're excited about adding the Camel camel as one our of automated helpers.", said Microsoft President Steve Balmer. "For example, during a longer search, our Camel character will light up and ask a user to join in."
The Microsoft Longhorn RJ Reynolds edition is expected to be released world wide.
This is my sig.
Why stop there?
...It's already been proven (albeit in the US) that it was used to illegally wedge Netscape out of the browser market.
Should they also demand that they also remove Internet Explorer?
Steve.
Browsers and media players *are* part of a modern operating system.
Rivals can simply include an operating system with their media players if they want to compete.
So I guess microsoft's next move will be to buy Winamp? :)
I bet they'll be a checkbox during installation "If you want to be able to view video's you will need to click the checkbox" and if checked it will automatically download Media player.. Seriously how hard does microsoft have to work to defeat these things? Last I checked Internet Explorer was still being shipped.. If they really wanted to help, why wouldn't the gov't just invest grants in RealPlayer or something instead of wasting money trying to fight microsoft.
Mod +5 Drunk
if they bundle iTunes :)
Reviews with a twist! http://www.sardonicbastard.com
...for the users.
If they could make them remove Outlook being installed by default we would have something.
I Am My Own Worst Enemy
"The European Commission also could order Microsoft to include rival media players with Windows to make those products as easy for users to access as Microsoft's own music and video player."
I might hate microsoft as much as the next guy, but ordering a company to bundle software from their competitiors is just ridicioulous! What happened to the concept of a free market?
Norway voted against joining twice.
From each according to his ability...to each according to his need.
Nice to see Europe is at least staying consistent.
Since when is a media player a core component of an operating system?
Stop corporate
I make short films, and stream with windows media all the time. Everybody has it, and it's a lot less hassle then supporting all three formats.
By not including windows media player, it has less of a chance of becoming dominant, and most people don't want to configure and support Quicktime, Real, and Windows Media.
If only this would result in the addition of an open standards media player for Windows...
Could it be because competition is a good thing? Sure Real and their practices suck, but would you rather have no choice but WMP? And I'm only addressing you in the general sense, because like americans, there are undoubtably millions of europeans who don't know or give a rat's patoot, so long as they can watch or listen to their hearts content.
Encourage a level playing field and let each player, or those yet to be born, to have a fair shot at it and survive or die based upon their own merits.
"Psst! Push Ogg!"
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
Release this WMP-free version of Windows just before SP2. Make sure SP2 always installs WMP and sets defaults back to WMP. The European regulators get to feel like they've accomplished something for a few days and MS gets to keep leveraging their monopoly. It's a win-win situation. Well, except for the free market.
That's all I need. Every computer will come preinstalled with Some Supported Media Formats Are Not Currently Associated With RealPlayer Would You Like To Correct This Player, and Upgrade To QuickTime Player Pro Player.
As commercial media players go, Windows Media Player is a lot less obnoxious than the rest.
Next we'll see a game developer in the EU suing MSFT for the monopoly practices when it comes to solitare and freecell.
Why stop there? Notepad is holding back the free marketplace.
I won't even mention the oppressiveness of the Calculator.
when you consider that MS codec was chosen as the new stadard for HD DVDs, and MS had to truly make the standard "open" before they got this boondoggle. What would be the ramifications of this? In Europe, MS OSes would have to be shipped with Third Party implementations? That might be a good thing.
The cesspool just got a check and balance.
Linux has no trouble with bundled software because there basically is none forced upon you. Linux itself is just the kernel, any distros that ship anything else will usually give you a few CDs with several hundred popular apps. I can't think of any distro that has just one media player or one browser that you can't install the distro without. Plus, any single distro doesn't have the market share that would constitute a monopoly even if they did force this on you.
Windows media player is a pretty good product with the exception of codecs downloading problem.
If someone can think of a product that can change software contrast, brightness and play many mpegs in a movie list, let me know. From the feature standpoint, I have yet to find a better alternative?
I'm very torn on this issue. I'm no fan of MS. But at the same time, where do you draw the line and say, "you can integrate this into the OS, but you can't integrate that." What should be allowable and what shouldn't? Who should decide? This is not much different from the case brought years ago about the integration of the web browser. What about MS Paint? What about WordPad? And games?
Users expect a certain amount of stuff built into the OS. Maybe this expectation exists because of MS, but it exists. Gnome and KDE both come with a bunch of software. Granted, they're both OSS, but I think users have this expectation and it must be met to some degree for any company to succeed.
I know a lot of newbie users who can't even figure out how to get Acrobat installed and without help from someone who's computer literate, they wouldn't be able to read PDF attachments, which are pretty common.
Anyway, I'm torn on it. I don't want to see MS continue as a monopoly, but I want them to fail for the right reasons, not some arbitrary, "you can add this, but not that" kind of rule unless it's applied equally to all competitors.
with Corel being back in the word processing game, next thing we'll see is them demanding that MS remove notepad from windows because it competes with Word Perfect.
Will I still be able to play my pr0n!?
IF the installer forced an actual installation rather than made it an OPTION. If it were an option, then IMHO it would be a Good Thing(TM) (even if no one actually installs them).
"The European Commission is considering new regulation which could order McDonalds corporation to bundle french fry from the rival Burger King restaurant chain. This will ensure that Burger King fries are as easy to access for customers, as McDonalds own proprietary fries."
Seriously, why would the above be considered a joke, while people are actually seriously considering a comparable ruling against MS?
It would be better perhaps to open the Windows Media format instead... it could open the competition for the best player.
I'm a FreeBSD user so I say this without bias...
if you are a FreeBSD user how can you say ANYTHING without bias?
Fact: BSD users are losing IQ points...
How about the US & EU get together, and make mr.antitrust have an option to remove all bundled programs with windows that aren't essential to the operation of the os? (i.e. IE/MSN Messenger/WMP/...etc..etc) I dunno but that to me sounds like the way-to-go, but good luck getting MS to actually agree to what isn't an integral part of the OS.
No-one said Microsoft is going to to ship with Realplayer. All the EU is forcing them to do is to ship two versions:
One with Windows Mediaplayer and one without.
That's all.
Like this the OEM might still choose to install additional software from third parties. But this won't be MS'es business.
It's about choice. And you will be able to choose your ol' Windows with the Mediaplayer if you want to.
HerbieStone out.
I have not found another player that supports video playlists as well as WMP, but even so I rarely use WMP anymore. I find that rescaling in full-screen and keyboard-based fast-forward and rewind are far more useful features.
Bsplayer is currently my player of choice. It does everything better than WMP except playlists.
I've built up so much character I have an alter-ego
If Real wants its product to be accessible, they should make it so you don't have to play "Hunt the Free Version Link" on their website for 4 hours to get their software. Idiots.
As to WMP, I think the ability to play a video or sound has gotten to be something people expect of an OS. Macs can sure as hell play video out of the box - to me it would be unfair to say MS couldn't do this. Let software compete on merit - not on the basis of goofy artificial restrictions to protect software that very few people want.
Years ago, we went through the same dance with the browser - and that dance looks retarded now. Imagine if Windows today shipped without a browser? How would most people go about getting one? It would be a crippled OS. As years go by, and PC's do more media work, WMP will look the same way.
Let's not stir that bag of worms...
I wonder if they will limit this to commercial software (with the spyware). I hope that they will include stuff like Real alternative:
k li/
http://www.k-litecodecpack.com/
or Media Player Classic:
http://sourceforge.net/projects/guliver
With media player gone, they'll still leave all the API stuff so every other media player will still be tied to Microsoft's format, and as a consequence tied to Windows.
Even insisting they release an x86 binary library for playing WMA on *nix and upgrade it at the same time as any changes to the Windows version would open up all the DRM infected stuff to linux users. We might not like the DRM, but in two years time when most folk get their music that way, it's going to be abig obsticle for Linux adoption if folk can't buy tunes.
I'm glad somebody has a long memory here.
I have Win3.1 disks. Media player is there
Internet Exploorer is not.
Because that would be smart. Governments have trouble doing anything smart.
Opening formats, all formats, would be a great solution for all these Monopoly problems. Not only would stuff like OpenOffice and media players interoperate perfectly, the public wouldn't get in an uproar because they will not see it as some stupid "hinderance to capitalism." I mean is the public sofisticated enough to see how important these formats are? No... CNN still makes incipid comments like "the source code is the recipe for the programs" and stuff like that. If the opened the formats and doggedly forced the ENTIRE api to be published then a huge amount of this problem might go away.
Why don't you embrace your slashbotness instead of living in a dreamworld?
You're punishing MS for stifling competition, but your form of punishment itself stifles competition. That's like if you caught a guy stealing from you, so you make him steal from someone else to to pay back what he owes you.
Sounds more than conjectural to me. Neither do I see any facts from you. Strange.
"Is this Winkhorst a nova criminal?" "No just a technical sergeant wanted for interrogation."
If you complain about bundling Realplayer into Windows then you should tell us how else we can FIX the problem. RP would most likely be on many computers today if it hadn't been for MS giving away from free their ASF encoder/server.
It's not about that. Right now, the content producers' mindset is 'everyone has MediaPlayer, so let's make all trailers/streamed content/whatnot wmv only'. I know, some offer quicktime for the poor Mac users, but wait for MS to entrench wmv in the collective mind of Hollywood (and in theaters).
Not having MediaPlayer by default is the issue. People want different default video formats, not merely different players. Remember that wmv is not an easy option for non-windows systems. This is the monopoly issue that US failed to act upon - MS forcing the 'windows is everywhere' + 'app X is a vital part of the Windows operating system' = 'develop only for app X' equation down the consumers' throats.
Maybe this way we can see 'see ogm video' links somewhere in the future near the wmv, rm and qt ones.
I would love for all the formats to be made public. Microsoft has no write to hold data captive because the formats are secret.
Spelling is on its deathbed too apparently.
Not the Mac users (not by default, and even if you download it you do not have all the same codecs). But if you'd like to exclude a significant portion of the market that has a lot of money, hey - feel free.
What everyone actually has is Quicktime.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Okay, so let me get this straight.
Basically, Microsoft is too good -- they make an OS that 90%+ of the world uses, they make applications that everyone buys, and they bundle free software that people prefer to use.
Because of their popularity, European courts are going to screw them over by forcing them not to include parts or addons to their OS. From my view, the competitors' products have never stopped working -- on my Windows boxes, nothing has ever stopped me from going to Real's webpage and installing their viewer (but I prefer not to because it's laden with spyware). Moreover, I tend to feel that, if a company makes something (e.g., Microsoft Windows), then they can do whatever the fuck they please, and if their competitors are too sissy-assed to come up with their own OS, then tough luck.
It seems to me like non-computer-savvy people have come up with the totally wrong way to deal with the problem.
This can only cause the Windows user base to rethink it's attraction to Windows. As if XP isn't bloated enough with useless crap, now it will already have the RealCrap(tm) built in, slowing it down further, and causing more security leaks and spyware issues.
Ceci n'est pas une sig.
:wq!
While it is nice to attack Microsoft for its monopolistic intentions. Like it or not, it is sufficiently integrated itself that it soon should be considered a Public Utility and regulated just like water, gas, Phone and TV/Cable/Sat. In many respects this is what happen to Standard Oil and AT&T. Yes they owned the market and they delivered a good product and yes it could be argued they over charged and drove out competition.
But the answer in the end was not microscale adjustments to their business but to have it redefined. If you want to protest against MS, then do it terms of macroscale effects such as actually splitting it up along product lines.
I make my face look like this and concerned words come out.
As for Real, I think their actions speak for themselves. Rather than find a niche to compete in they lowered themselves and turned their product from bad to worse. I remember a time when the player was nice, but even Winamp of the time was better. Basically I'd say they just need to create a much more badass streaming server as that is where the money is, charging for Real One was ultimately a mistake as it was a piece of crap so users felt short changed by it when there are plenty of other free players available. Of course the guys at Winamp have it easy as they are financed by another monopoly. (AOL)
That is allLadies and Gentlemen,
The REASON Europe is in such a snit about media player, is they realise that everybody will need
it to view streaming news/information. This will
become more and more popular, to the point where
that is where you watch all your news.
Think about it, what would the web be like if
microsoft (or any other corporation for that matter)
OWENED the standards?
If the streaming media is done to a published standard, this is not really a problem - but
we all know how microsoft deals with HTML
and tried to with JAVA. An awful lot of people write pages to suit IE at the expense of the standard- so if you ar'nt using it your fucked
not because other browsers are bad but because people HVE to have it work on IE first.
If the same thing happens with streaming
media- You will need to pay MS to see the news.
The soulution is to write a streaming standard
and implimentation and get government to ENFORCE
it. Ie you want to stream media? here are the tools
there're free, here's all the documentation - it's free, go wild. Oh BTW, you break this standard
and you and the CEO will be going to prison, not pay a fine, weasel in court for eight years but straight to"enlarge my asshole at your pleasure bubba" prison.
then it doesn't matter if Microsoft bundle it or
not the fact that realplayer and other companies
may or may not make money is irrelevant.
Cheers
Stephen
If, however, I choose to remove part of that said product and add a third-party product, then I have the right to be able to remove it. I do not want 2 media players...I want 1...The one I choose.
Why can't I uninstall the in-built defragger, or the scandisk? These should be bolts on an OS, not "PART" of the OS. Let me install what I want...
In reality this "let me install what I want" is plainly obvious...Linux...
(And for all you nerds out there I am writing this at work where I am forced onto a windows platform)
In the end, however, we are talking about an "operating system", not a kernel. It is more akin to saying that RedHat can't distribute the media player of its choice with their product. Is it such a bad thing to bundle software into my product offering? I don't think so. What is wrong is the use of that leverage by hiding APIs, lock in OEM agreements etc...That is where we have to tackle M$, not in petty "oooh, you shouldn't have that login screen because company X, Y and Z have login programs. Your abusing your monopoly..." blah blah.
I am not pro-M$, but let them friggin develop their own OS in the way they want. Just stop them shoving it down our necks.
When all is said and done, nothing changes...
Why not have Real and Apple ship their x86 OS'es with WMP in return?
Microsoft has the right to include those but I have the right as a consumer to uninstall them and pick something else. Microsoft does not allow choice, therefore they are in violation.
My old sig was REALLY stoopid.
Isn't the real issue here that it's such a pain to get a PC without Windows on it? Let's face it, just getting Windows without the other M$ products is still not a good choice. If you could go to Micro Center and buy a machine whose configuration matched the M$ PC, but ran Linux or something else (same goes for Mac hardware), that would be having options. This is like getting Caesar's palace to have different kinds of slot machines ... they're still the house, and in the end, the house *always* wins.
stuff |
Instead of forcing MS to include competitor's products, they should be required to publish their interfaces, so that any competitive product can be integrated with OS as completely as media player.
The sad thing is that even if the ruling against Microsoft passes, this won't change a thing.
The problem is not so much software shipping with the OS, as APIs relying on the integrated software. Where Internet Explorer is concerned, for example, the Windows API offers certain features that are implemented in IE rather than in the OS. This means that from the moment you've got -any- piece of software that uses any of those API functions (to render help, for instance), then IE will no longer be optional. This is why back in the days when Windows 98 was released but didn't dominate the market yet, some third party software packages shipped with IE (in the same way games ship with the DirectX version they need nowadays), so that their software would run on 95. And the IE-ization of Windows 95 boxes everywhere happened just on its own.
And you can -bet- the exact same thing will happen here. One likely possibility is, [Palladium.latestName()] will provide some API to allow media-oriented software to transfer audio/video to the hardware via an encrypted conduit, and that API will be implemented in Microsoft Media Player. And without looking so far forward, I believe that there already are some products (Adobe Premiere?) that depend on some bit of API provided by Microsoft Media Player.
Even if your OS comes with competing products, sooner or later you'll need to install MMP.
Judge Jackson had the right idea all along. Split up Microsoft, **AND** have ANY technical information (API definitions...) exchanged between MS-core and MS-components made public.
This way, competitors could have accessed the information necessary to provide THEIR own implementation of any middleware API Microsoft published.
-- B.
This sig does in fact not have the property it claims not to have.
>Browsers and media players *are* part of a modern
:-)
> operating system.
> Rivals can simply include an operating system
> with their media players if they want to
> compete.
Reasonable but wrong. The new OS could not compete with Windows, since the hardware vendors won't produce drivers and the software houses won't do software, until the OS is not widespread. And it won't be widespread until there are drivers and software. Do you begin to see the problem?
How MS has removed choice in the media player market. Last I checked, Quicktime and Realplayer are still on the market. What's more, they'll happily take over WMP's duties. Real Player actually tends to force the issue and take over wether you want it to or not unless you are very careful on the check boxes.
Then, of course, there are the myriads of other players out there that use the DirectShow engine (what does all the audio/video playback for WMP). Media Player Classic is the best example I can think of. It's a free program that plays all the media that WMP does. The APIs are open for anyone to use, and plenty of programs do just that.
So how, precisely, has Microsoft removed choice in media players? When most of the streaming media on the web isn't Quicktime, come talk to me. Until then, looks like MS is just another competitor.
Oh, and should Apple have to strip Quicktime from OS-X? Remember: They have a monopoly on the Mac market same as MS does on the PC. You can't buy a Mac with out OS-X and you can't get OS-X without Quicktime.
I pay a lot of money for my hard drive. So if Real Player wants to force itself into my hard drive, can I charge them rent? I think Microsoft should make their player a downloadable option just to get rid of the European nag. (as other have suggested) Better yet stop supporting the European market (that would be ideal) :)
Real player was good a long time ago, then it got crappy. Even when I did have a registered version, the unregistered version would creep onto my computer and then annoy me with spyware, pop up ads, and trying to overbear my windows settings.
If people want it, they will download it, if they don't know any better then why should we use their ignorance against them by forcing them to have a program they may never utilize!
I mod down so you can mod up. Your welcome.
While I agree this is the wrong solution (a better way would be to open up the file formats and codecs) there is one possible interesting side effect.
....
If MS have include Winamp, then Ogg support would be avaliable by default on every new computer in Europe. Would help it a big bit I'm sure.
Except what's to stop MS from keeping all the file associations linked to there own programs? Dosen't matter how many other media players they include if the default is there own.
Anyways, it's a stupid idea
As a euro citizen i say BAH.
Let Microsoft bundle their media player with Windows.
There is nothing wrong with that.
BETTER YET:
I stead they should demand that the Microsoft OS must be more secure order to be used in governments.
Oh wel, i think in the end nothing happens. It wil blow over and it's bussines a usual.
My input to this log..
I, for one, do not have the windows media player. I only have mplayer stuff wich is available for linux. (I don't know, if there is support for Windows-Media format for linux-applications.) And you are exactly describing the reason, why it is a good thing to stop them gaining a Monopoly with their format: How can there be an OS cometition when the application-"standard" controlled by one OS vendor pushing his own OS?
Trolling is a art!
In the eyes of regulators, each 'distro' of Linux should be classified as a seperate OS. So there is a 'constellation' of Linux-based Operating Systems, but each 'owns' a miniscule share of the market.
That's just how it works. Not saying it's good or bad.
---
That's the exact reason why people don't use Linux, there is no standards. Your program may not even work in lots of linux boxes. People don't program for Linux for these reasons, another reason is GPL of course.
I could understand if Microsoft was exclusively trying to leverage WMP's presence on default Windows OS installations so that users would be painted into a proprietary corner, but is this really the case? Really, re-read your statement:
The soulution is to write a streaming standard and implimentation and get government to ENFORCE it.
Isn't this exaggerating the situation a tad bit? Did Microsoft write a streaming, enforced standard in terms of simple implmentations of AVI, MP3, CDA, and the like?
If they remove Media Player, which in the case of XP both Media 6.4, 8/9 will be gone. I for one won't mind the fact that 8/9 will be gone, but 6.4 is till bey far the lightest and simplest media player for playing my collection of media. Its lightweight and small footprint is awesome and with a simple click of a button, you can go full screen, and it even plays playlists. Though the playlist feature is a bit clunky, but for the sheer size, and performance, I would think giving up 6.4 would be a bad idea. Putting in quicktime and Real would not solve the problems either because those players are just too much of a memory hog. Yuck.
:-)
But that's just my two cents since I am still using a stoneage of a computer clocking barely at 500MhZ
Ok I was waiting for this one. Not surprising.
First MS is not the first company to be condamned by a Europe court. You want to sell things in Europe? So you have to follow Europe's rules wether you are American or European. I have countless examples. The biggest difference here is that unlike in America, MS is not allowed to inject millions of dollars in Europeans governments. Lobbies can't buy European politics. Sorry, try again.
Yes, the Evil Europe is subsidizing the Evil Airbus and the Good US is trying to compete with the Good Boeing.
Wake up, US and Europe both agreed to a treatie in 1992 which regulates government funding in companies.
Both are allowed to subsidizing up to 33% of the investments in their companies, in direct and indirect fundings.
Indirect fundings happen when the US government gives billions to Boeing for designing new military planes and when Boeing uses this research to create civilian airplanes. Airbus suffered from that for years.
The difference here is that the 1992 treatie implies the refunding of all direct investments but not indirect investments. So Airbus has 17 years to give the government back it's money where Boeing will never have to give to R&D money back to the US government.
Iraq: war to save the U
From the "no shit sherlock" department.
I'm amazing. You aren't. SUCK IT
"Remember that wmv is not an easy option for non-windows systems."
I don't see any technical reason why that should be true. If I'm wrong, enlighten me.
Do we want freedom to invent and produce any products you wish, and charge any amount you wish, or do we not? It's simply wrong to force MS to change their distribution of Windows like this. I don't see a need for this at all. If you wish to get rid of all MS products, there are alternatives, some of them for free.
Later, a future Service Pack will 'break' the competitors products.
Rinse, wash, repeat.
You are being MICROattacked, from various angles, in a SOFT manner.
My beef starts when the frigging IE and WMP are so deeply entrenched in the OS. I would stop half my MS bashing if, when you fire up the "Add/Remove programs", you get IE and WMP among normal apps. And when you wish to uninstall them, it works.
Clicked links outside the broswer will randomly open in IE, open in a new Firefox window or the same Firefox window I was browsing in. And that sucks.
Don't stop bundling. Stop TANGLING and BOGGING.
Rock = the vast majority of computer users don't care what software plays back their video or audio. They just want it to work. If Windows was forced to remove it's media player, most consumers will become frustrated. They open the box, plug it in, and expect it to work and do everything without having to go out and download software.
Hard place = _because_ most users don't care, they just use the bundled software. I.E. WMP. Which just leads us to the monopoly issue...
So, Microsoft has to either
A) Upset its user base by "breaking" their OS so as to not play media right out of the box or
B) Be sued out of their pants by every company that comes along and makes a competing product to some particular component to the monolith known as windows.
Unfortunately for end users, it will most likely be B, and this will just have to be a fact of life that they will have to learn to live with.
Of course, M$ can always include their competitors software with Windows, and ask at installation which they would prefer. But then where does it end? Which competitors must they include? Do each of these competitors have to pay to have their software included? If so how much? Will we see Windows price explode as a result? If they don't have to pay, then is it really right to force Microsoft to include their competitors software on a product they have spends years developing? Will our future Windows disks be 1 part Windows, 3 parts software from all their competetors from all the different software niches?
Another possible solution would be to "inform" users at install that there are these other media players available, and can be found at these URL's... but of course users will say "Whatever. I can just click this check box right here and install WMP here and now"
As much as I am against a monopoly, I really don't see an easy solution to the problem. There are so many questions that need to be answered before we can find a solution.
People expect to have media players, web browsers, or whatever monopoly issue we are discussing, ready and working when they take the computer out of the box. And I'll tell you what, if RealSpy, err... RealPlayer ever comes default installed on any of my OEM Windows disks, I'm gonna be pissed.
Since when is there a clear cut definition of an "OS"? Please point me to it, I might learn something. People cannot even agree on the size of a Megabyte, let alone a complex beast like an OS.
;-) or "troll" for giving a unpopular opinion strongly, or godforbid "funny" without humourous intent. So here goes.
;-) The real dangers are more obscure: What if Linux is outlawed by side effects of company patents, and insane law like the DMCA?
If I dont explain, I'll be modded overrated (without being rated
Please draw the line in OS functionalities:
- From the jargon file (do you own googling, pls): Operating System: The foundation software of a machine, of course; that which schedules tasks, allocates storage, and presents a default interface to the user between applications.
Thats the hacker definition.
How come "playing media" is NOT a "default interface" for many hackers? I understand, and the jargon files says so too, Unix. MS-DOS et al are the primary role models for an OS and they do not have it.
But really, in a zen kind of way (what *IS* an OS) I would argue the a minimal OS is not the OS, its what we call the "BIOS", the maximal OS does not exist. It has somewthing to do with "Default" and "interface", but "Default" translates to "the current norm" and ALL software "interfaces".
So I say playing media by the OS is a good thing, it means programmers can use it always, and users can count on it. After all, the world DOES expect an "OS" to be rock solid secure right? I mean, even MS Windows is getting a bad name nowadays
Unlikely, well I hope so. Impossible? Not if the governement gets to decide what software builders can do in so much detail. DRM is not dangerous, it is mandating DRM in everything that is. To get back at media playing... A DRM system that cannot be controlled completely by the owner of the system should be outlawed... NOW. He, Mario Monte, that was a hint.
"/Dread"
when you think of cars as an analogy (as it is popular in OSS forums), you begin to understand how bizzare this is. Say ford make a car and toyota makes a car. There is no reason to include parts made my a competetior in your car. You are free to add them later, but the seller shoudl not be forced to add it. Just because toyota wants a bit of fords market in say.. wipers, shoudl not force ford to include them as an option.
I think people dont understand what a modern OS is. An OS is nolonger just the kernel and a few program to run on it. When you look at OSX, Windows you see that the OS is more a collection of programs and tools that run on your kernel to make using your computer easier.
The war with islam is a war on the beast
The war on terror is a war for peace
From the broadcast/NLE side of the fence:
...
Part of the problem here is that there is no universal video codec standard. This is very different from, say, the telecom or satellite industry, which has organizations like the ITU to enable global communication standards for phone service or video teleconferencing (thus the ubiquitous G.711, H.264, T.120 standards, etc.). MPEG-4 has been pushed as the closest thing to a universal streaming standard, but there's a much larger piece of pie out there than streaming, and that's where the real fight lies.
Win Media 9 is attempting to compete with higher-level MPEG encoding used in broadcast applications (DigiBeta, IMX, D1/D5/D9, DVCPro 25/50/100), which traditionally have been the realm exclusively of Sony, Matsushita (Panasonic), and JVC. Now, Win Media is nowhere near good enough to transmit SDI (serial digital interface, which ops at 270/360 Mbps for SD up to 1.45 Gbps for HD) -- yet. But I assure you that those busy little bees up there in Redmond are working their asses off to develop a codec that will begin to compete with the big boys. And already you're starting to see all three broadcast manufacturers (and the fourth, Thomson/Grass Valley) offer streaming from cameras and switchers, in addtion to competing over the next generation of acquisition media. Any leg MS can get in the door in terms of developing a fully-accepted worldwide digital video standard will help it with the high-end fight -- which has a MUCH higher profit margin than the PC world.
The main reason I can see for MS offering VC-9 as open-source for the new HD-DVD standard is to begin to compete with Sony and Matsushita on tapeless acquisition, ie, recording to DVDs/CDs/opticals/hard disks, both at the professional and the consumer level. (Licensing for this is extremely profitable.) And VC-9 is visually very, very similar to Media 9, although their internal mechanisms are obviously very different. It's not too far down the line when you will probably find broadcast-studios-in-a-box running a Windows OS with Win Media 15 or so bundled for all encoding. And if you think Real's raising a stink, wait'll you see what Sony throws at 'em when their most profitable line of business is threatened
Just my thoughts.
This antitrust kind of nonsense is getting a little out of hand.. how is this any different to Apple shipping iTunes and Quicktime as the default music & video players on their operating system?
I use Media Player for playing video on my Windows PC (Winamp for music though!) - and whilst I understand this not to everyones taste, and that MS should offer alternatives - but I don't see how this is any different to Apple.
"Hey! Unless this is a nude love-in, get the hell off my property!!"
This is exactly how you hit the nail on the head with Media Player 6.4. I too prefer a smaller implementation of media playback. No fancy hallucinatory light shows, no huge ad banners, not a plethora of external lookups/links, etc. That way when I pop a CD in my system doesn't peg for 15 seconds trying to do everything under the sun. Just play the damn media and offer me basic controls!
Even those anti-Microsoft zealots would have to concede that bundling Windows with lite versions of their software (e.g. - Outlook Express 6, Media Player 6.4, etc.) allows users at a new PC the ability to get their feet wet. Then once they do they can pay for, download and install whatever the hell they want.
After the next anti monopoly trial: Buy Longhorn and get tons of cigarettes for free. Now with marlboro and lucky, too. Great!
February 24
MS May Be Forced To Sell Stripped-Down OS In EU
This is a case of attacking the right people for the wrong reasons. WinTax is the real issue.
Microsoft is not a monopoly. Users are free to chose between any operating systems, for instance Mac OS X or Linux. It might be harder to get, but it's there for the users that want to make a conscious choice.
I don't like the idea of forcing companies to include competitors software in their products. The real problem is that vendors are forced under brute business methods to not include say QuickTime or Netscape.
It'll be interesting when HP includes iTunes with their computers
Ciryon
mayhaps you missed the article last week saying that the MPEG working committee had tentatively approved windows media as the basis of the next generation of DVDs. this could be the hammer that forces proprietary code off the next generation of media grazing. IMHO only open standards with minimal licensing fees and access to all comers should be defaults. which means the EC is saving the world here if they go through with it.
if this is supposed to be a new economy, how come they still want my old fashioned money?
Please explain in which sector AOL has a monopoly.
Don't blame me; I'm never given mod points.
If memory serves, it wasn't until Microsoft started subsidising WMP with Windows/Office revenues that Real had to support their business model by adding adware and crapware.
The EU in their idealistic way is hoping that by removing unfair competition, companies like Real can make money selling a high quality product without having to compromise the user experience with adware and crap.
When did an operating system go from single functional piece of software, to multimedia home entertainment system?
Don't get me wrong, I'm all for all the extras, but if I don't want them installed (and not just hidden) where the f is the option to not install it period? I.e., web browser, messenger, media player, insert ms crapware here.
Heck, just include a cd or links on a desktop with a "readme" doc somewhere explaining the differences and let the consumer chose between the three browsers (opera, moz, ie), messengers (msn, aim, gaim, icq) and media players (winamp, wmp, real, qt).
Not that hard people. Especially if they include the download links that download it with something like WGET for Windows. Really people it can be done so simply.
Tip to microsoft: Do it this way, you'll win kudos with the consumers and other people. Especially the decision makers and perhaps even us linux/foss/bsd/[insert alternate OS here] zealots as well.
-z
This assumes that voter turnout is less than 50%. Usually this only happens in an off year, such as when there are no higher offices (such as president, governor, or a federal senator or representative) up for election.
Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
I don't know if it was your intention, but you just indicated what the problem is. Look at your assertion - you use WMV because "everybody has it" and to avoid the hassle of supporting other formats.
That is EXACTLY why Microsoft shouldn't be allowed to do what they are doing. Now it may seem silly to make them unbundle WMP. It wasn't a big deal before, but that was before multimedia over the internet was a real possibility. Now it is a huge business. They are leveraging their OS monopoly to enter and dominate other businesses.
Yours is exactly the attitude that they are banking on. Do you get it now?
My beliefs do not require that you agree with them.
Not that this would happen, but what if Microsoft said, ok. Then no one in europe can use our software. Could they do this?
TruePunk | Games
I was really hoping:
"...FOR ME TO POOP ON!"
Lameness filter encountered. Post aborted!
Reason: Don't use so many caps. It's like YELLING.
would be satisfied if I just could
a) choose not to install WMP, IE and other MS add-ons during Win installation and
b) remove them in the same manner as any third-party soft.
That sounds like a good solution to me: newbies would be able to have functionality out of the box ( yes, MS's products would still be defaults - but hey, MS makes the system after all, they should have a say-so what to include with their system ) and experienced users would be in position to use MS' competitors products.
Microsoft is triing to take over the "standar video and media format" has .WMA If put WindosMedia on all windows european computers will be easy to push-out all competitors, and Hollywood will use that format, Internet Radios will use that format, and competitors will be fuck. Microsoft use the Desktop OS monopoly to force is monopoly in other area (video distribution)... this is exactly what anti-monopoly laws forbit!
-Woof woof woof!
or gopher.
if you never used gopher, you're a wanna-be.
in fact, if you remember playing Bolo in your spare time and then tinkering around with gopher because you thought it was cool, then you're okay.
of course, you get extra points if you remember sitting in the back of radio shack and dicking around with the TRS-80 Model I Level II and a 300 baud acoustically coupled modem. Or you remember Infocom's Zork I for the TRS-80 coming in those ziplock bags.
And bonus points for anyone here who messed around with a Commodore Pet and its plastic keyboard (which still rocks, BTW.)
Wait, yes, this is off-topic. But it's on topic. Because if you had an Osbourne MicroAce or messed around with an Altair, you automatically deserve points because 90% of the Slashdot crowd doesn't remember these computers and how cool it was to sit back in -- what? -- 1981? 1982? -- and fiddle around with these things.
I still remember my computer science teacher in high school who said, well, if Microsoft ever goes public, *that's* the company to invest in. Of course, this was between accusing us of using Super Utility Plus on the TRS-80 to copy Asylum I and Death Maze 5000 so we could play it on all the computers in the labs. (Those games were Doom and Quake before anyone had heard of Doom and Quake, BTW).
<rant>
Why?? So they should compete for getting their software on the Windows CD now?? How do you get included? Marketing share? Bribes? Sex with Bill Gates?
Why not just do it like this:
They should also force them to make their software *uninstallable* like... well, their competing applications.
I'm fine with that. MS should be happy since they can include all their shit. They'll even get a separate CD and space to include More Junk Than Ever Before. Mozilla users will be happy because they can avoid IE, etc. Only problem here might be the feeling that you're paying for more than you'll use, but that's not a new problem at least. At least the situation would improve.
</rant>
Beware: In C++, your friends can see your privates!
Apple also neglets to add third-party software that is competitive to its own on the computer. Without looking at the issue closer I would suspect reasons for not including them would be effort, support, QA and maybe even not wanting to give the competition an edge.
What I would like to see, whether this be Microsoft, Apple or any other computer company, is a third-party showcase CD bundled with the OS. The CD would include a showcase of software available for the OS. The content would be the sort included with your average computer magazine. I would suggest that the third-parties on the CD should subsidise the cost of the CD, since they are being done a favour by be being included. Its not necessarily a perfect solution, but it is one that could be of interest to some people. Of course if you make a 'temporary' installation of these OSs you won't necessarily have this CD, but then the choice of yours for purchasing a permananent CD. Maybe the competitors could get together and have shops include this CD with all new computers. The OS manufacturers needn't be the ones with the initiative.
Jumpstart the tartan drive.
Nobody even mentioned Quicktime or Real, and I can't imagine anyone would want to use them. I think a lot of people would prefer quality stuff, like BSPlayer and VideoLAN.
You've gotta love the hyprocrisy of Europe
First -- you've gotta love those that put an equal sign between EU and Europe... Makes it sound like you think all europeans think the suggestions in their entirety are good suggestions. That's about as stupid as saying the same with americans and their elected president.
Second -- your post is off topic.
Beware: In C++, your friends can see your privates!
This is great and something the European Commission should be thanked for. Instead of being plagued by Microsoft's own bloatware, new users may be plagued with Real Network's bloatware instead. And as an added bonus, they could have some adware/spyware offered on top. What more could they want, Gator (now Claria) installed by default?
Seriously, what could be so hard about making Windows Media Player (and Internet Explorer, etc...) an option on install? Though, knowing Microsoft, they would have done the utmost possible to have some part of the bloatware installed on the computer anyway.
By the way, you're all talking as if this had already happened. Microsoft have not yet settled the antitrust case -- perhaps if they don't succeed in settling the case it they will end up buying the European Union, as they did with every other antitrust case they have ever had?
"Really, I'm not out to destroy Microsoft. That will just be a completely unintentional side effect" -- Linus Torval
I don't run a linux kernel, I don't run a linux operating system.
I run Debian. It is a distribution of Linux that includes a kernel, an operating system, and extra software.
If they called it a distribution instead of an operating system, would be that okay?
I only look human.
My mother is a halfling and my dad is an ogre, so that makes me an Ogreling
Why not have Windows distributions?
Don't allow Microsoft to bundle any of its additional apps with Windows, but give other select distributors rights to bundle software in a Windows package.
You could then have those other distributors offering Windows with multiple browsers, e-mail clients, media players, etc.
I know that people will shriek "ARRGH! No! We don't want to have to choose from mass piles of media players, etc."
But what is the alternative? Microsoft forcing you to use the 'default' Microsoft software? Software which has file formats/codecs controlled by a convicted monopolist?
We already know that Microsoft is certainly not trustworthy. Not even trustworthy enough to distribute its own operating system. Damn, you can't even trust its damn patches.
Linux/Open Source/Anti Microsoft News
There are "standards". Don't troll and lie to everyone that there are not.
http://www.linuxbase.org/
In addition, each desktop has standards as well. KDE has its own. Gnome has its own. What you call a "lack of standards" is called choice to others.
In addition, any properly designed program should work accross any distribution of Linux assuming the libraries, for which it was designed, are included as well. Only idiots design software that won't work this way. You make a claim that has no basis, really. Opera Software, for instance, seems to have no problem making a closed-source browser that works across all distributions of Linux. And for those systems that don't contain QT (any KDE-less sytem), they include a build that has the QT libraries linked and included.
Maybe the people in Europe feel the same way I do?
I would rather not have Windows Media Player on my Windows machine, I would uninstall it if I could. It's a resource hog, and I dont think it preforms as well as something free for download like Winamp, (Video playback improved drasticly with Winamp 5)
Besides that, the web services industry pretty much as a whole. They control both AIM and ICQ which together make up a most impressive userbase. They in the past have followed a lot of the same practices as Microsoft. They would crowd out competition all the time. I remember they went in and bought out my local ISP so for a time AOL was the only option. Then I found another ISP which three years later was bought out by Earthlink. None of the large ISPs are what I would consider responsible corporate citizens unlike my former favorite Ben and Jerry's. Sadly they two have been bought out by a much less friendly corporation.
You may not want the alternatives, but the logic goes that its easier to uninstall an optional component than to download a wanted one.
Freedom to install competing software is only available to those with internet connections.
In truth, its good for you to have them all on there anyway - competition in media player services give the public more choice of suppliers of premium media, and this reduces both the ability of Microsoft to be a majority toll-gate provider of software solutions, and of those services using microsoft's WMA technology to monopolise the new market.
Competition is needed not just in provision of media services but in provision of software which enables it...
Competition in the end user market leads to lower prices, competition in the DRM media player software leads to higher quality srvices, as Apple, Real and Microsoft will be forced to invest more in making their software better.
As an end-user, even if you use your right to uninstall (preferably a right to uninstall windows media player) you will benefit from this.
I have been a user for about 10 years. This ends Feb 2014. The site's been ruined. I'm off. Dice, FU
What about the other free players out there? Like BSPlayer, ZoomPlayer and others? If Microsoft had to include those, there would be options for people. And they should definitely have to include Apple QuickTime.
Fly me to the moon Let me sing among those stars Let me see what spring is like On jupiter and mars
Good Quicktime is much better than MediaPlayer or RealPlayer. Steve Jobs is just not good at promotion, other that preaching to the faithful at MacWorlds.
. . . will we then see a version of Region Codes embedded within Windows to prevent U.S. users from running the European version?
Perhaps no one in this country will be that interested in a European bootleg edition of Windows. On the other hand, the availability of separate editions would add some interesting aspects to the debate about customer choice.
MS has get used to do whatever they want, and now they have a foothold in the gamin market.
Is it too unthinkable that they would start bundling games that can favourable compete with games developped by gaming companies, and then start claiming that games are an integraal part of the "Windows eXPerience" [tm] and thus unbundable form the Windows product?
And what about if they embed a game engine to power the eyecandy of their OS GUI?
Nobody in the IT industry is safe, not because MS is innovative, it would be just fair that they become rich for innovation, but because they use their monopolistic position without any shame to squash competition in new computing fields.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
And bitch about AOL/Time Warner, well tell me if you'd bitch about this. My friend doesn't use pop3 email. She uses webmail, like hotmail, like a lot of people that are college students and therefor aren't in the same house or with the same ISP for long. So they keep webmail. Anyhow, she apparently recieved one of the numerous viruses going around that use your computer as a spam host, and because roadrunner cables email server is an open relay to anyone on their network(meaning no authentication on outgoing mail, other than ensuring it's one of their IPs.) her computer spammed people from their server. For this they shut off her internet connection and told her to fix the problem because the next time they get complaints they trace back to her they will cancel her service.
She is no computer guru, and I had to drive a couple hours to clean up her system and install a router with NAT and a firewall.
While I was talking to their customer service I asked them if they could just block her IP on their mail server, because I wouldn't be able to drive down there for a week. And they said it would take too much work and it isn't their responsibility. So she had to leave her computer off for days, waiting for me to come down.
Maybe I am wrong, but I don't think they should punish users for things that effected the whole internet and that are hard enough to get rid of that it even takes us IT guys a couple hours to repair a damaged system.
Anonymous Cowards - Oh God, How I hate you
They also may:
This means people will have to seek out what player(s) they want, hence make their choice(s). The forcing of Microsoft to include cat+dog+bird+fish brand players should be viewed as less likely. That Microsoft would share with other player providers those bits of the "operating system" which make their player so well integrated is desirable.
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
However, you will feel good, because almost half of the class will have learned how to print a page from the internet. "Download"? You might as well have asked for the conversion factor between Teslas and Gauss. Now, with that information in hand, go to the Quicktime web site and try to get the latest plug-in that is needed.
Now, without looking back, close your eyes and try to spell "rediculous".
Couldn't resist sorry.
With great power comes great electricity bills.
At least get the facts straight. Office and Windows raise up together - mostly due to WordPerfect crowd totally bungling the migration from DOS.
So what you ae telling us is that MS is selling products below their real value?
Just so you know, that practice is called dumping and it is illegal.
Either that or the products you are listing are not as expensive as you claim.
If goverments around the world do not have the balls to treat it as what it is is a different matter, but it lights my day when people like you arrive to the correct conclussion without aiming to do so: MS is killing the IT industry and the situation is so desperate that the only way to have some choice is to do the stuff yourself and give it away for free.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
And not just from the board game.
/. will have posts questioning why $Company is allowed to bundle $Product while Microsoft can't? (Answer: MS is a convicted illegal monopolist)
/. will have posts comparing Microsoft could be forced to include $CompetitorsProduct while $Competitor should not be forced to include $OtherCompanies's $FoodProduct or $CartPart? (Answer: $Competitor is not a monopoly)
/. should make to posters before posting in monopoly related article is to understand what a monopoly is. It is not hard, people!
/.-ers are tired of this kind of repetitions too. How many times must it be said before some people understand?
How many more time
How many more time
One requirement
Mod me a troll or flamebait if you must, but I am pretty sure some
Darwinism at its finest -- I say as long as they don't bother me with their borken machines, fsck 'em.
Of course maintaining family machines is a bitch when they can't seem to discern crapware from everything else.
When you try and uninstall programs that are "integral to the OS" (WMP, Explorer, Outlook Express!) all it does is remove the links that are on your desktop/start menu. It does not delete the files, however.
If you're going to call me out for using "retarded", you should also call me out for using "idiot" - it's the same deal, and used to mean the same thing. In 30 years, few people will remember that the word "retarded" ever had anything to do with Down's Syndrome - "retarded" lost the fight to mean that a long time ago (and thus they've moved on to new words). Euphimisms like this are necessarily shortlived. Give it up.
But if you can't, you definitely shouldn't use the word "dumb" - unless you're speaking German.
Let's not stir that bag of worms...
Almost every movie trailer I've ever seen has been in Quicktime first, with WMV a distant second, and Real an even further distant third (because the video quality is shit)
NASA TV, until recently was RealPlayer only, they've recently added a WMV Stream.
I hope that microsoft stops selling windows in Europe. Period. I'd tell them that if the software they make is so bad, they don't have to have it. I would refuse to do business in a nation that would force me to make a product a certain way (aside from safety concerns).
Europe would be on its knees without the software. they'd turn around in a second.
Reason, free market capitalism, and individualism
in a useful for to the Internet Content Deployers since Windows 95.
Why then are almost all movie trailers in Quicktime format first, and WMV a distant second?
Media Player and IE are both light wrappers around standard Windows interfaces. Lots of software would break if you removed Windows audio or video playing interfaces, codecs used in lots of games and competing media players, or stuff like mshtml. Once you've got the application down to a hundred kilobytes of code to instantiate and call standard components, uninstalling it is pretty meaningless.
You can "uninstall" these programs, but you're really just removing icons. The uninstall even leaves the tiny executables in place. Very few people today care about that little space, and many more would be pissed off to discover that they accidentally installed something that they actually use.
We're saying oranges are orange in color and you disagree by saying fruit can be red or green. Go through the heirarchy. What, specifically, are these posts discussing within the topic?
/., I would think people here would understand basic parent-child inheritance from some odd run-in with OOP at least.
"Why should Microsoft be required to offer Real's whoreware product, laden with spyware and annoying popups and notifications."
Hell, you even responded to that post directly. This is
common sense: noun
What those who are ignorant of the subject matter think; usually wrong.
Would be quite interesting would be to see MS use their Monopoly to Fight back literally... Unbundle WMP only on their server software and remove their desktop OS from the market place...
I know there is a abundant ammount of implications involved.. but it would be a interesting thing to see the fallout of such a action on their part.. It would never happen.. but still Its a interesting scenario
Who needs WiFi when we can have Packet Over Sheep! http://datacomm.org/PoS-InternetDraft.txt
You can uninstall WMP, notepad, all sorts of stuff. I'd say your conclusion on choice is lacking as far as this topic is concerned.
-]Phreak Out[-
"Your first session will include learning the difference in 'left click' and 'right click' "
So, that means that Apple did it right then.
I remember my first Mac (a Mac PLUS), I got it when I was 8 or something there around. It came with a diskette containing training software, teaching you to click, double click, point and drag using a cool animated (I was 8) game in wich you would point at numbers (in order), click on doves to make them fly away, and double click on windows to see who was behind them. After this cool point and click game you got into training to use the desktop (I don't know what exercises were available as I always quit when I got this far).
The point being, why don't Apple (or MS) include such software with the computer anymore?
"Civis Europaeus sum!"
While I was talking to their customer service I asked them if they could just block her IP on their mail server, because I wouldn't be able to drive down there for a week. And they said it would take too much work and it isn't their responsibility. So she had to leave her computer off for days, waiting for me to come down.
Maybe I am wrong, but I don't think they should punish users for things that effected the whole internet and that are hard enough to get rid of that it even takes us IT guys a couple hours to repair a damaged system.
They might not have been trying to punish her, but rather just following company policies. If they are like any other ISP (which can claim safe harbor, etc.) they probably don't want to filter ANY kind of traffic coming from their customers lines. They probably take an All or Nothing approach to it, which is why she was told her service would be cut if it continued. I think if ISPs start filtering certain ports for their customers (especially at their customers request) they can open themselves up to, at the very least, problems with the customer, such as:
- What if the problem goes away, but the customer continues to have issues with internet connectivity - they might try to blame it on the ISP.
- The IP address is assigned to another customer via DHCP or a new customer gets the IP address that was originally assigned to a "problem" customer.
- Customer is using their internet connection to commit a crime and the ISP was found to be filtering certain ports, while allowing other ones to go through. This might not sit well with the law.
It all comes down to liability issues, and the ISP can be deemed liable if found to be filtering customer's ports (and not others) on their network.
Rubbish. Age alone has nothing to do with tech. proficiency. I'm almost 41 and understand what I do for a living (surprise: I work in IT and have been since quite a few /. readers were in their diapers).
I've seen people in their 30s and even this young 20-something chick who just could not wrap their brains around some concept that your average techie would take for granted. Only in the last 2 years have I really understood that The Tech Thing(tm) is not that "easy" for Joe Sixpack as it is for Suzie Programmer. Maybe we can understand/learn some newfangled computer/comms concepts in 10-15 min., but not your Average Joe that lives down the street, even if he/she is not a dolt.
IT can be like medicine, some people are knowledgeable about it, the rest might know this or that but not much more.
"Try teaching a course on using the internet to people over 40 years old."
Let me start off by staying that I'm over 40... 44 to be exact.
Son, I was involved in setting up bits of the internet when your daddy was bangin' your mama in the back of a pinto.
The bulk of PC's computers, and the Internet have been invented by people over 40.
So while you may think you're smarter, its a myth. You can't even describe how the internet works, and you're telling me I can't tell right click from left click?
You make me laugh.
BT in the UK had a no cross subsidisation requirement because of their monopoly status, so it can be made to work. Vaguely. I'm not sure of how it is made to work, I think that it is done to limit just how much you can pour into something.
is because these days OS standards themselves have changed. Users EXPECT the OS to have rich multimedia capabilities out of the box. They EXPECT to be able to listen to music and watch movies right after they've finished installation.
On top of that, developers expect client OSs to have multimedia capabilities, too.
It simply doesn't make sense to remove WMP, because you'll only get a crippled OS out of this and this will hurt the customer (regular Joe Sixpack has no idea how to install all this crap).
On the other hand it does make sense to offer the customer to have other media players on their system IF THEY WANT THEM. Put the installation icons on the desktop, give them clear names and tooltips. DO NOT install your third party crap all over the place by default. I hate it when Real crapware sneaks into my new machine. For me this means I have to rebuild the machine completely because there doesn't seem to be any other way to completely get rid of spyware Real installs.
Someone, clue those moronic lawyers in.
Ummm...this was not a permanent solution it was a request so that she could turn her computer on and use it for school stuff till I had a chance to arrive, without her getting booted for the second time and losing her service. WHich mind you is the only service in the area. Probably because of a buy out of the local ISPs
Anonymous Cowards - Oh God, How I hate you
Now, without looking back, close your eyes and try to spell "rediculous".
:)
Ok, ridiculous
-matt
I volunteered to teach an intro to the internet class at the local public school back in 1999/2000. The students were mostly the parents of the kids that went their during the day. In six two hour classes we took them from the basics to using email and search engines.
If you could not get your students to understand downloading a file maybe you just are a bad teacher. I am sure that you have other talents but teaching is not one of them.
As a person who is a lot closer to fifty than to forty I think you need to loose your age bias and learn to take each person as in individual. Grouping people together and dismissing them has lead too much pain.
I could live with Microsoft bundling the media player, if I did have to put up with dumb web sites that insist that I download it and install into my Konqueror bowser running on Linux. Closed minds and lost opportunity for the web site and Microsoft. Oh well.
What do you expect? These are the same people that struggle with the difference between "loose" and "lose". To them, I expect it's a "mute" point, too.
EU:1 USA:0 Microsoft:1
The EU could pull into the lead if it can force M$ to unbundle Media Player. What will be next? Internet Exploder, of course.
I can't afford a sig!
That was fucking awesome. Great post, dude.
Thanks, Google!
"Yeah, well, Dracula called and he's coming over tonight for you and I said okay."
Way cool, but totally futile, given the timing...
r VR.html
http://www.pliant.org/personal/Tom_Erickson/Gophe
"...the company may be ordered to remove Windows Media Player as an integrated feature of the dominant Windows operating system, at least for personal computers sold in Europe."
This is great news!
--
Anonymous Coward, EU.
I don't care if a specific media player is bundled with an operating system or not. If it is a crapy windows media player bundled with windows or xine with xandros or whatever, though this is not comparable.
Microsoft should be ordered to stop enforcing computer manufacturers and dealers to bundle its Windows with hardware.
windows codecs only run on x86 systems. That means for instance no amd64, sparc, powerpc browser plugins for mplayer.
Looks like someone needs to learn how to spell "ridiculous" with their eyes open.
"U R" dumb if you need every single assumption down to the most obvious level behind a piece of writing spelled out for you.
Or have I just been had by a really really boring troll?
In other news, EU to force BSD to unbundle vi...
I think you missed the part where Microsoft was found to be a monopoly.
By definition, this means that they have no problem crushing or assimilating any upstart.
Which means no competition.
Which is bad for the consumer.
MS should tell Europe to fuck off, they are rescinding every windows license there...then force the governing bodies there to enforce copyright laws and go door to door and make sure that people who HAD windows, no longer have it installed or be punished by the law.
Bye Bye EU!
and I hope people start using the AWESOME VideoLAN Client, it's made believers of some of my co-workers that there are powerful and easy-to-use OSS, (that and FILEZILLA to name the big impressers)
Apparently the Darwin OS is not the original creation of Apple Computers
but is instead based off of an older, obsolete OS called "BSD Unix". The
child-indoctrinatingly-cute cartoon mascot of this OS is a devil holding
a pitchfork (pictured above). This OS -- and its Darwin offspring --
extensively use what are called "daemons" (which is how Pagans write
"demon" -- they are notoriously poor spellers: magick, vampyre, etc.)
which is a program that hides in the background, doing things without
the user's notice. If you are using a new Macintosh running OS X then
you probably have these "daemons" on your computer, hardly something a
good Christian would want! This clearly illustrates that not only is
Macintosh based on Darwinism, but Darwinism is based on Satanism.
unbundle the daemons!
Coca Cola will begin selling 2 cans of Pepsi in each 12-pack, Pizza Hut will start offering Dominos Dots, McDonalds will begin asking "Would you like a Whopper with that?" and Ford Trucks will begin running on Volkswagen Bug engines.
Calling atheism and agnosticism a religion is like calling bald a hair color.
No.
Hence, you're not one of the people he described. the "over 40" qualifier only modifies the "people in an internet use class" group, to exclude a group of 12-year olds in an internet class.
It's true that 12-year old clueless newbies learn basic motor skills and linguistic concepts faster than 40-year old clueless newbies. That's well established. What's your beef?
Shut up.
In facts, I do not matter at all of that WMP case...
I'm just happy to see that MS is in troubles, no matter about what it is...
The more troubles they get, happier I am, that's some kind of philosophy (or whatever...).
I'm european, and I DO NOT like big US companies, MS is the first, so if european union can do anything that get a big US company into troubles I'll applause with four hands.
I would really be pleased to see MS out of europe, even if it won't happen, it's a cool idea... And Coca-cola, McDonald,... should go out of here too...
Many europeans wants to get rid of US, at least for some things, and I really think that feeling is growing (manly because most europeans HATE G.W. Bush and his imperialist politic, even if it's not the only reason).
So troubles for MS coming from EU is just fine for me
The real point is that people who are not technically competent do not know how to download and install software. If it is not included and pre-installed it will not be used. Other programs never have a chance.
Most - and I emphasize MOST - people over about 40 did not grow up with home computers and most did not have them in college. Those are the people that know how to do little more than send email. I was surprised to find that people who use the computer every day still do not know how to copy and paste, or print from the internet. And they do not know what download means; much less how to do it. You can call it age bias or you can call it lack of opportunity.
You make a good point, and although age has nothing to do with technical proficiency, it is most likely the people who never were exposed to computers that know the least about them. That, unfortunately, is the older people. (and since you are only 40, you WERE still in diapers when I started designing computers, and I was a UNIX admin before you learned to read.), Thus proving that in specific cases, age has nothing to do with it.
Now try Oersteds!
Now that's riduculous! I asked you to spell "rediculous" and you still had to go and spell it with an "i"!
10000 Gauss = 1 Tesla
Hmm... when did "over 40" become old? :-/ What are you, a teenager?
Apart from being monstrously arrogant, your remarks are, quite simply, wrong. I've taught new tech to older users from an innovation-resistent environment (typographers). With a few exceptions (and I regard these as simple personality issues), they were eager to learn, and quite capable.
Sure, there were one or two who had to be taught the simplest, most basic concepts (e.g., basic mouse use), but this didn't take all that long. Besides - we all had to learn this, at one time or another.
Or were you born with a mouse in your hand?
- Peter Ravn Rasmussen
All they may be required to do is to offer a version of Windows without Media Player.
Here's how it will play out.
Option 1: Windows with Media Player = 99 Euros.
Option 2: Windows without Media Player = 99 Euros.
Get the idea?
If you were blocking sigs, you wouldn't have to read this.
I asked this last time this topic came up, but why do M$ get to leave IE and Outlook in Windoz?
:)
There is _no_ way to complleetly remove Outlook from the OS, I have never tried to totaly remove IE but I suspect that the same is true!
I want a ver of Windoz that has no IE, no outlook and no MP. Put them all on a seperate disc with thunderird, Moz, QT and a few other third party apps and I will be happy.
The point is that people who grew up without a computer don't know how to download and install. Learn your American english! Forty years old refers to age, not old people. The class was limited to people who were older than 40. And I was a teenager when most of my class was born - no mouse and no computer. Since you need the experience, take the challenge. Teach a class to people older than 40. Listen to what people that age (or any age) have to say if they grew up without a computer. Teach a course to people who do not know what download means or don't know what a "browser" is or who have never heard of google.
Then tell them its their fault that they are using the poor programs that were included on their computer when they bought it.
Microsoft is using their monopoly to hook people
on MSN IM. They should be forced to include some
alternative IM products too.