First, I'm guessing you didn't read my whole post before you started typing your reply. One suggestion, read this to the end before replying.
-> "I gave Borland and Oracle as two counterexamples when you claimed that developing for Linux means "software is free (beer) and support (LOL) is the source of revenue"."
Hello ! Porting one of the most popular databases (Oracle) to another OS by one of the world biggest companies is not the same as a software house in India run by a 30 year old developing their own say, non-free IDE for an operating system that isn't widespread in India. The very fact you're using two world software powerhouses to justify your stance discredits it.
-> "I gave Anjuta when you claimed "To expect a group of Indian coders to sit and down and code say, an IDE, give it away for free is fantasy""
Again Hello ! Since when does 1 founder and co-developer out of a total of 11 make it an Indian project ? !! Even the 2 listed as lead-developers are both not Indians.
-> "I pointed out your mistake when you then claimed that Naba must have been paid by Manipur to write Anjuta"
Didn't you read my rejoinder about this ? I never claimed that Manipur paid Naba TO WRITE anything. Just that Naba probably doesn't depend on writing and selling software as his main or any source of income. He probably recieves a stipend or some other source of income for his OTHER FORMAL research/teaching duties at Manipur Tech. I covered this in the reply you just responded to.
-> " I caught you when you changed your argument from "software is free (beer) and support (LOL) is the source of revenue" to the rather lame argument that you steal Windows so it's effectively free"
Huh ! You lost me there. The two arguments aren't contradictory or related. But they do complement each other in my basic argument.
1) If you write GPLed stuff, only revenue is support, which I said is non-existent (in India) So, no one writes GPL stuff except students/academics/researchers who don't depend on it for income anyway.
2) If you write non-free stuff, Indian coders will stick to Windows, not Linux, due to market share.
3)Furthermore, home users have no incentive to switch over to Linux since they can easily steal Windows. Hence Linux (lack of)cost is not a driving force. Applications are.
Points 2 and 3 just form a vicious circle.
"to demonstrate that a small market share is not the same thing as no market share"
Actually, with the Indian mentality, they're pretty much the same. All the best Indian coders (among those still in India) by virtue of the Indian mindset won't want to aim for anything 'small' (even if that's how their product might eventually end up) This is a cultural thing, but it does come into the picture.
Trends (Economics, political or cultural) in a certain region don't always translate themselves to other regions, irrespective of or unmodified by local ethos. I think that's the mistake you're making when you try to refute my argument and try to prove your point by example.
Before I respond to you in specifics, YOU still haven't provided any counterargument other than simply asserting that mine is incorrect.
"By the same bogus argument nobody would build spare parts for BMWs because "there aren't any decent number of potential buyers" what with 90% of the population driving Ford, Toyota or GMH."
But there are a decent number of potential _buyers_ for BMWs. But like you said, a lot more GMs.Ford..etc So, the ratio of spare parts for GMs..etc to that for BMWs will be more or less commensurate. They don't manufacture 10 million spare parts for 5000 BMWs, do they ? It's based on the market.
Why would a Indian coding team want to spend R&D budget and their time writing a non-free s/w for which a substantial market doesn't exist. If they find 40% of buyers ready to legally buy the s/w on Linux and 10% on Windows, wouldn't they go for windows given that Windows has something like 95% share among home abd general office userbase in India. Also, word-of-mouth promotion of a Windows app is likelier to garner a few more paying customers than a Linux version since your Linux expansion is limited to the 5% userbase. YYou have to convince some ppl from the other 95% to migrate to Linux if you want them to use your product.
"Earlier you said that nobody would write free software unless they were being paid a "stipend" by a research institution to do so"
If you read the complete footnote, you'll see that I meant differently.
I didn't mean that the stipend is for writing the software. Simply that people who participate in these GPL projects don't DEPEND on writing code for Linux professionally as their means of subsistenec (in India). So, in that sense, ppl who tend to participate (in India) are generally academics or students or researchers on a stipend or other sources of income. Their _principal occupation and source of bread_ isn't writing code unlike the 31 year old who's set up his own software house in Bangalore. That guy wants paying clients or revenue-generating products. His paid team is not going to write GPLed code or non-free Linux stuff until there's a market for it in India (assuming that's his primary market). In that context, its the academics on stipend or other source of income with an interest in Linux who are the likely contributers to projects like the ones on SourceForge.
We're talking about the potential increase in "Linux activity and usage" in India in 2003 i.e. the next year.
The _reality_ is Windows is rampantly pirated in India. This is not a matter of debate, but ground reality, so face it. Linux being free beer or free speech is irrelevant. What matters is software for the platform.
Now, the Indian developer won't develop non-free Indian-specific software for Linux since there aren't any decent number of potential buyers. If they do have to make non-free, might as well make it for Windows. 90%+ of desktops are Windows(mostly pirated)
So, what about free software ? Indian coders won't do that. Why ? Yup, because no revenue. Hardly any from support of Indian users. The main groups who will participate in such ventures are those affliated (studying, teaching or research) with institutions. Naba fits that category. Show me any one even half-finished project (late-alpha or advanced) written principally by an Indian team and who don't generally comprise of students or academia/research. You won't. Definitely not in 2003.
The article talks about Linux activity and India being a hotbed for this in ->2003<-
My argument again:
1) WIndows is free(pirated) for most Indians. Only the "no fear of audits" and "moral high ground"(for using s/w legally) are pro-Linux points in this regard.
2) Read what I said. "...users in India will only pick up a tool if it can be an instrument for economic gain.". You're taking this _literally_ What I meant was a prospectve coder will only start using Linux and linux based tools if he/she sees a potentially feasible job market for his/her skills. Windows is rampant. You would need establishments make a proactive change to Linux, before your 20-yr old installs Linux on his comp to get the hang of QT, MySQL...etc
3) The whole point of Indians embracing Linux is economic. (The open source aspect is an added bonus.) If you had to sell proprietary software, one might just as well stay with Windows which is "free" and already established.
4) If you had free(beer) or very very cheap quality software on Linux, _that_ and pt 1) in conjunction might tempt a change. But like I said, Indians don't think that way.
Did you eve read the Authors section of Anjuta. Of the 11 developers incl. founder, only 2 hail from India. The lead guy hails from Manipur which is the home of Manipur Inst. of technology. Now, read the footnote of my original post again.
Your understanding of software business in India is correct.
Thing is India already has a huge (pirated) Windows userbase. Someone would have to go out on a limb and write proprietary s/w for a retail market that doesn't exist. So you can't build Linux momentum that way. Only way you can, is by having free s/w on Linux that substitutes an equivalent s/w on Windows. And like I said, the Indian linux developers just ain't there for that.
" use Lightwave. I could switch to Maya or something, but I've already spent the money so where's the value ?"
Maybe, if you wanted more character modelling/animating tools. Maya has a slightly different focus (as can be seen in its advertising) than Max or LW or even XSI. You comment would be be more truer if you compared LW to Max.
I don't see Linux making any significant inroads in the mass computer culture of India.
Most savvy users in India will only pick up a tool if it can be an instrument for economic gain. This is why ofcourse, computer programming and learning it is a big thing in India. Because that's what the 20-something thinks. Learn coding and the world is open to you. The Indian mindset is not exactly open to adopting a culture where the software is free (beer) and support (LOL) is the source of revenue. Which in other words means there is no (or hardly any) revenue !
If someone in India trys out Linux, its because of the geekish 'chic' factor. To expect a group of Indian coders to sit and down and code say, an IDE, give it away for free is fantasy*
*Unless that group is currently in an academic or research institution where they have a stipend or other sources of income.
Note 2: If you're going to counteract that they can sell the product as a shrinkwrap too, then you don't know the Indian software retail market:-)
"ou're an idiot, you're not at all funny or original, and it's sad that some moderator as stupid as you will soon come along and give your post a "Funny" rating."
And since you're NOT an idiot, you post with conviction under a login, don't you ?
If I want to use Linux only, but am stuck with Photoshop. I can install stripped down W9x with Bochs. Then run Photoshop (or any app where Wine doesn't cut it) on that without rebooting.
So, what's the f*king perf tradeoff instead of running PS on a directly installed W98 ??
Slashdot Mirror
First, I'm guessing you didn't read my whole post before you started typing your reply. One suggestion, read this to the end before replying.
-> "I gave Borland and Oracle as two counterexamples when you claimed that developing for Linux means "software is free (beer) and support (LOL) is the source of revenue"."
Hello ! Porting one of the most popular databases (Oracle) to another OS by one of the world biggest companies is not the same as a software house in India run by a 30 year old developing their own say, non-free IDE for an operating system that isn't widespread in India. The very fact you're using two world software powerhouses to justify your stance discredits it.
-> "I gave Anjuta when you claimed "To expect a group of Indian coders to sit and down and code say, an IDE, give it away for free is fantasy""
Again Hello ! Since when does 1 founder and co-developer out of a total of 11 make it an Indian project ? !! Even the 2 listed as lead-developers are both not Indians.
-> "I pointed out your mistake when you then claimed that Naba must have been paid by Manipur to write Anjuta"
Didn't you read my rejoinder about this ? I never claimed that Manipur paid Naba TO WRITE anything. Just that Naba probably doesn't depend on writing and selling software as his main or any source of income. He probably recieves a stipend or some other source of income for his OTHER FORMAL research/teaching duties at Manipur Tech. I covered this in the reply you just responded to.
-> " I caught you when you changed your argument from "software is free (beer) and support (LOL) is the source of revenue" to the rather lame argument that you steal Windows so it's effectively free"
Huh ! You lost me there. The two arguments aren't contradictory or related. But they do complement each other in my basic argument.
1) If you write GPLed stuff, only revenue is support, which I said is non-existent (in India)
So, no one writes GPL stuff except students/academics/researchers who don't depend on it for income anyway.
2) If you write non-free stuff, Indian coders will stick to Windows, not Linux, due to market share.
3)Furthermore, home users have no incentive to switch over to Linux since they can easily steal Windows. Hence Linux (lack of)cost is not a driving force. Applications are.
Points 2 and 3 just form a vicious circle.
"to demonstrate that a small market share is not the same thing as no market share"
Actually, with the Indian mentality, they're pretty much the same. All the best Indian coders (among those still in India) by virtue of the Indian mindset won't want to aim for anything 'small' (even if that's how their product might eventually end up) This is a cultural thing, but it does come into the picture.
Trends (Economics, political or cultural) in a certain region don't always translate themselves to other regions, irrespective of or unmodified by local ethos. I think that's the mistake you're making when you try to refute my argument and try to prove your point by example.
Before I respond to you in specifics, YOU still haven't provided any counterargument other than simply asserting that mine is incorrect.
..etc So, the ratio of spare parts for GMs ..etc to that for BMWs will be more or less commensurate. They don't manufacture 10 million spare parts for 5000 BMWs, do they ? It's based on the market.
"By the same bogus argument nobody would build spare parts for BMWs because "there aren't any decent number of potential buyers" what with 90% of the population driving Ford, Toyota or GMH."
But there are a decent number of potential _buyers_ for BMWs. But like you said, a lot more GMs.Ford
Why would a Indian coding team want to spend R&D budget and their time writing a non-free s/w for which a substantial market doesn't exist. If they find 40% of buyers ready to legally buy the s/w on Linux and 10% on Windows, wouldn't they go for windows given that Windows has something like 95% share among home abd general office userbase in India. Also, word-of-mouth promotion of a Windows app is likelier to garner a few more paying customers than a Linux version since your Linux expansion is limited to the 5% userbase. YYou have to convince some ppl from the other 95% to migrate to Linux if you want them to use your product.
"Earlier you said that nobody would write free software unless they were being paid a "stipend" by a research institution to do so"
If you read the complete footnote, you'll see that I meant differently.
I didn't mean that the stipend is for writing the software. Simply that people who participate in these GPL projects don't DEPEND on writing code for Linux professionally as their means of subsistenec (in India). So, in that sense, ppl who tend to participate (in India) are generally academics or students or researchers on a stipend or other sources of income. Their _principal occupation and source of bread_ isn't writing code unlike the 31 year old who's set up his own software house in Bangalore. That guy wants paying clients or revenue-generating products. His paid team is not going to write GPLed code or non-free Linux stuff until there's a market for it in India (assuming that's his primary market). In that context, its the academics on stipend or other source of income with an interest in Linux who are the likely contributers to projects like the ones on SourceForge.
We're talking about the potential increase in "Linux activity and usage" in India in 2003 i.e. the next year.
The _reality_ is Windows is rampantly pirated in India. This is not a matter of debate, but ground reality, so face it. Linux being free beer or free speech is irrelevant. What matters is software for the platform.
Now, the Indian developer won't develop non-free Indian-specific software for Linux since there aren't any decent number of potential buyers.
If they do have to make non-free, might as well make it for Windows. 90%+ of desktops are Windows(mostly pirated)
So, what about free software ? Indian coders won't do that. Why ? Yup, because no revenue. Hardly any from support of Indian users. The main groups who will participate in such ventures are those affliated (studying, teaching or research) with institutions. Naba fits that category. Show me any one even half-finished project (late-alpha or advanced) written principally by an Indian team and who don't generally comprise of students or academia/research. You won't. Definitely not in 2003.
OK.. Let's start from scratch again
:
...etc
The article talks about Linux activity and India being a hotbed for this in ->2003<-
My argument again
1) WIndows is free(pirated) for most Indians. Only the "no fear of audits" and "moral high ground"(for using s/w legally) are pro-Linux points in this regard.
2) Read what I said. "...users in India will only pick up a tool if it can be an instrument for economic gain.". You're taking this _literally_ What I meant was a prospectve coder will only start using Linux and linux based tools if he/she sees a potentially feasible job market for his/her skills. Windows is rampant. You would need establishments make a proactive change to Linux, before your 20-yr old installs Linux on his comp to get the hang of QT, MySQL
3) The whole point of Indians embracing Linux is economic. (The open source aspect is an added bonus.) If you had to sell proprietary software, one might just as well stay with Windows which is "free" and already established.
4) If you had free(beer) or very very cheap quality software on Linux, _that_ and pt 1) in conjunction might tempt a change. But like I said, Indians don't think that way.
Did you eve read the Authors section of Anjuta. Of the 11 developers incl. founder, only 2 hail from India. The lead guy hails from Manipur which is the home of Manipur Inst. of technology. Now, read the footnote of my original post again.
"c.) Most Lightwave users would consider MAX a downgrade. Heh"
After many years of knowing LW users, they would consider ANYthing other than LW a downgrade.
"I would get an inferior renderer"
*cough*mental ray*cough*
Your understanding of software business in India is correct.
Thing is India already has a huge (pirated) Windows userbase. Someone would have to go out on a limb and write proprietary s/w for a retail market that doesn't exist. So you can't build Linux momentum that way. Only way you can, is by having free s/w on Linux that substitutes an equivalent s/w on Windows. And like I said, the Indian linux developers just ain't there for that.
" use Lightwave. I could switch to Maya or something, but I've already spent the money so where's the value ?"
Maybe, if you wanted more character modelling/animating tools. Maya has a slightly different focus (as can be seen in its advertising) than Max or LW or even XSI. You comment would be be more truer if you compared LW to Max.
"You can write proprietary software in Linux. Lots of companies do."
Well, no one in India will. Atleast not primarily aimed for the Indian market until Linux makes significant inroads.
disclaimer : I'm an Indian from Bombay.
:-)
I don't see Linux making any significant inroads in the mass computer culture of India.
Most savvy users in India will only pick up a tool if it can be an instrument for economic gain. This is why ofcourse, computer programming and learning it is a big thing in India. Because that's what the 20-something thinks. Learn coding and the world is open to you. The Indian mindset is not exactly open to adopting a culture where the software is free (beer) and support (LOL) is the source of revenue. Which in other words means there is no (or hardly any) revenue !
If someone in India trys out Linux, its because of the geekish 'chic' factor. To expect a group of Indian coders to sit and down and code say, an IDE, give it away for free is fantasy*
*Unless that group is currently in an academic or research institution where they have a stipend or other sources of income.
Note 2: If you're going to counteract that they can sell the product as a shrinkwrap too, then you don't know the Indian software retail market
"I have a twin borther and have had for hte past 20 odd years."
And before that ?
(duh)
"ou're an idiot, you're not at all funny or original, and it's sad that some moderator as stupid as you will soon come along and give your post a "Funny" rating."
And since you're NOT an idiot, you post with conviction under a login, don't you ?
"what a fucking douchebag. does bashing microsoft make you feel more of a man? does it make your dick bigger? fuck off you asshole."
What, your paycheck from MS a bit truncated this week ?
"Nobody knows what the heck it is, but it is officially repulsive. And man is it powerful! More powerful than gravity, even."
Don't we call it Microsoft ?
a virtual menage-a-trois for the sex-starved geeks.
More p0rn !
"Who's on top of you......."
...hmm
Oh, I'm sure some mods can take care of that.
Not if you meant something else though
"This will be the first test of untethered Audio-Animatronics and the next phase in Imagineering's quest to increase interaction with visitors."
Will it eat pesky visitors ?
Choice of name ? It's my real first name.
Dragon ??
Looks like they're copying AMD chips.
Would explain the significance of the name.
Actually Gates would give the option of "VB or .NET VB"
Time for Gates to say "there's something rotten in Denmark" and get on the plane.
If I want to use Linux only, but am stuck with Photoshop. I can install stripped down W9x with Bochs. Then run Photoshop (or any app where Wine doesn't cut it) on that without rebooting.
So, what's the f*king perf tradeoff instead of running PS on a directly installed W98 ??
Anyone know the riugh performance tradeoff of say, Photoshop ?
Is it satirical ?
He gave Glitter 5 of 5.
'Man, are you guys the same ones from Fatwallet that got this with the year free service for $32?'
I am. Do you know how to change it ?