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First Human Clone Born?
slantyyz writes "A religious cult, the Raelians, has claimed that the birth of first human clone is one of theirs. While this hasn't been corroborated yet, it's making headlines in Canada, where the cult is based. There's supposed to be a press conference on Friday in Hollywood. This story just may have legs."
Don't bother, they're already here....
Hopefully the clone will have legs too!
ahaha.. it may have legs... it may have arms and a head too.
This is news? Come on, who among us didn't expect the first cloned baby to come from a Canadian religious cult? Duh People!
the first human clone has probably already been walking around for a while. I have a hard time believing that the experts would sit by not doing it because people are afraid. As many people as are looking at cloning, surely someone had already done it before this.
It's easy to stand out when the general level of competence is so low.
I want to know when the next ship to Blisstonia is.
First Clone! What? I FAIL IT? Dang.
Let's assume this is just PR by a cult sect. But still, it is worrying - that here we have people who are willing to perform what amounts to human experimentation *despite* the defects shown in many of the cloned animals. Doing this to a human being is in my eyes not any better than the medical experiments conducted by the Nazis.
We need to regulate this type of research and deal with rogue 'scientists' and 'doctors' who are willing to do such acts. Please note that I think an outright ban on human cloning is not a good idea, there is too much promise in the technology - just, we need to be very, very careful what we're doing with it.
Saw this earlier today. Probably based on the same news feed, but what the hey. Here you go.
Constitutionally Correct
I wouldn't put too much weight on what they Raelians say, this is a publicity stunt and I wouldn't be surprised if the Scientologists were saying the same. There definition of a cloned human probably follows their guidelines too and not scientifically sound.
In my neighorhood for quite some time the Raelians have been trying to recruit ppl. They drive around in this van with sparkling stickers - kind of like a moving target. I got one of their fliers one day and had quite chuckle. I don't think they are too far off Scientologists either. There is some info on the Raelians here.
Analytic & algebraic topology of locally Euclidean meterization of infinitely differentiable Riemmanian manifold
Just what we need, a bunch of cloned Canadiens... Why didn't they choose to clone some Swedish chicks?
I hope it has legs, or did they clone a WWII veteran?
Fleur de Sel
I travel through Canada regulrly, enroute to the more western portions of the US.
It appears that they have finally invented a way to overcome boredom up there.
C|N>K
Cloning has the potential to really help some couples with fertility issues - it's too bad that the popular discussion of cloning has obscured that point. Certainly nuts like these Raelians don't help matters much!
Stop by my site where I write about ERP systems & more
Raelians are not a religion, it is considered in France as a sect! This is exctally where the states have to act : private funds lead to uncontrolled (and oftenly) unethical research.
The Canadians are gonna invade with there army of clones. Let's nuke'm
has been verified through any other party. I really think this is irresponsible, it took 20-30 attempts (can't remeber the exact number) to clone Dolly.
SO how many attempts will it take to get a human right? Reminds me of all those failed Ripleys in Aliens 3 (alright a bit dramatic).
Also what scientific knowledge has been gained by these ppl who are based at
The group's headquarters, called UFO Land,
Cirruz
Without empirical evidence, this is just fringe cultists making a radical, unsubstantiated claim. I'm frankly surpirised how much attention mainstream news sources have given this. It's a sad state of affairs when anyone can make wild claims and without showing any evidence, they can grab headlines.
By the way, did I mention I performed successful cold fusion experiments?
I'm a friend of a friend of the working class.
Wasn't the news of a human clone being born to a member of a cult one of the interogative headlines from Heinlin's "Stranger in a Strange Land"? What's next, are we to await the arrival of Valentine Michael Smith? Grok!
As per the article:
Other experts say that even if cloning were possible, the babies would likely be born with defects. Cloning research has produced many deformed and dead animals. The first mammal to be cloned -- in 1997 -- was a sheep named Dolly, who later developed arthritis at an abnormally young age.
If the clones are supposed to be exact replicas, why do the clones have defects? This suggests we're missing something...Perhaps they're not exact after all?
Be excellent to each other. And... PARTY ON, DUDES!
"I've missed a period" - girl ... are you sure?" - cult leader ... this could be bad. Uh... I know! We'll send you away for a while!" - cult leader
"Shit!
"Well, yes, dammit. I told you to use protection! What do you care, you've gotten half the women in this cult pregnant." - girl
"Yeah, but they're not 15
"What about the kid? What do we do when he comes back?" - girl
"We'll put out a press release saying he's really a clone, we'll even post it on slashdot! I'm sure everyone will believe us!" - cult leader
and hopefully the kid does too. :)
Regardless of the religious connotations of such an action, there's the issue of the limited knowledge we have about clonning.
Until very recently,scientists where at a loss to explain why so many clones failed either to come to term, or if they were "successfully" brought to term, why did they have so many anomalies.
Discover magazine, as one of their top science stories for 2002 (number 33), report that biologists have discovered a particular gene Oct 4 that affects the outcome.
The thing is, we still don't know how to control that gene, so we are still left playing the odds.
John
The drops of water don't know themselves to be a river; and yet the river flows.
Yes, but how many?
I wonder how many the clone will have though... ulp!
Meow meow meow meow, meow meow meow meow...
A woman gives birth to an exact clone of herself. A couple years down the road, the child learns to speak and its first word is a cuss word. It turns out that the child is an EXACT replica of the mother except for the fact that it can only speak swear words. This drives the mother crazy and eventually she drives to a large canyon and pushes the child in. When she returns home, the police arrest her...
For making obscene clone falls! Ba dum ching!
<a href="http://www.joblessjimmy.com">Work is dumb and so is Jobless Jimmy.</a>
Some basic exposition is missing from this story. We get the words "religious cult" and then no explanation other than that they want to clone people.
So, um, what about this "cult" is "religious"? You read a story like that, and the labels get used, but what exactly are the "religious" aspects of the cultism, here? 'Cause I'm kinda curious.
"Fundamentalism" isn't about divine morality. It's about human authority.
Raelism is a cool religion. Rael was actually abducted by aliens and came back with all this knowledge about how life on earth was created in alien laboratories.
;) And as far as plausibility of what the religion says, I think that it is more likely that we have been engineered by aliens than by a misterious god somewhere that is supposed to know and see everything. ;)
One nice thing I like about this cult is that sexe is good and evryone can have sex with any one. They even set up big picnics in nature where everybody have sex.
Also, Rael is a car racer. Unfortunatly, when he was engineered by the aliens, he was not implemented with the good racing dna.
There was a controversy lately with them trying to recruit student from secondary school, which is, in my opinion, not worst than Catholic religion trying to recruit in primary schools
Aside from the big news about a cloned human... can you imagine the mascot for Clone Aid? (Images of various Kool Aid pitchers in my head morphing into various clones). Ok, maybe not that funny...
"I'm not ashamed I can't function in society like I'm supposed to." - Paul Westerberg
Still, I suppose we have to try and slow down some of these changes to the human race. The nuclear bomb came before we were ready for it, and we are still struggling to catch up to it politically and morally. Cloning has the potential to change the world even more, so the more lead time we have for legislators and philosophers to work on this, the better.
But I will be shocked if the first legal and widely advertised cloning clinic is not openned in 2003 or 2004.
OK, take this with a grain of salt people. I mean, just watch the press conference! But if this is true, then damn, the rammifications are astounding...
No detail given and the person chosen to verify the claims is, by his own words, a freelance journalist who is a physicst with a PhD. So a freelance journalist (read unemployed) without any medical training is to past judgement? The judgement will be to who ever has the most money or will make the best story
"Compare the best prices on: Software/Utilities."
/vertisement.
How is that related to cloning? Or maybe it is just another example of
is wall street of deceit at IT again?
these guise sold gooed old uncle sam 450 (that # IS significant) fingerprint "scanners" (flashy mousepads), so buy stock markup profomulahlah "math", the "company" becomes worth more on payper, than if they'd successfully patentdead cloning.
so, either they're charging way too much for the mosepads, or it just another in a seemingly endless charade of deceptive moneysucking scammages, using the ill eagle kingdumb/gov't. "partnership"? nothing personal, some of US are a little discouraged.
don't blink too fast. whoisit you think 'll be cloned early/often/& exclusively?
mod US DOWn robbIE.
The news conference is going on right now and the Clonaid website is dead, but from a google cache:
"Once we can clone exact replicas of ourselves, the next step will be to transfer our memory and personality into our newly cloned brains, which will allow us to truly live forever. Since we will be able to remember all our past, we will be able to accumulate knowledge ad infinitum.
"Thus today, man's ultimate dream of eternal life, which past religions only promised after death in mythical paradise, becomes a scientific reality. Raël, with exceptional vision, allows us an extraordinary glimpse into an amazing future and explains how our nascent technology will revolutionize our world and transform our lives. For example, he describes how nanotechnology will make agriculture and heavy industry redundant, how super-artificial intelligence will quickly perform human intelligence, how eternal life in a computer will be possible whitout the need for any biological body, and much, much more."
What must it be like to be the test subject? This little baby girl, if this is true, already has DNA that is aged by 30 years, not in perfect condition. She will most likely develop conditions early on in life that she might not suffered for many years to come. Her life is significantly shortened as well. It is not right to damn a child to that fate.
-Jim
Neither Bart, nor I, are impressed - Who wants another person just like her crazy mother? I wany my Monkey Man!
They are not ready to clone the more advanced plumbing required for a guy yet.
I'd heard that a disproportionate number of Ralians come from the exotic-dance community.
Hey, we want these people to clone themselves!
I looked into the abyss, and the abyss looked into me--and we both winked.
Apparently the clones' name is Eve. Nice choice. Wouldn't Dawn be more appropriate? As in Dawn of a new era? Not Eve - as in your cult is in its' eve because you think you've cloned a human, but really you're just looking for popularity. I wonder what "the complex" looks like up there? Branch Dividian? ....smoke grenade incoming...
"With great power comes great responsibility"
So true
or not
it's food
for thought
-mga
The group's headquarters, called UFO Land, are located in Valcourt, Que., about 200 km east of Montreal.
Oh, this just screams of validity!
To put it simply(and maybe inaccurately) Telomeres are strands of "junk" DNA that show the age of an organism. It is also thought that the length of the telomeres act as an aging trigger. As you age your telomere strands get shorter and shorter. During normal reproduction the telomeres are regenerated to full length. Dolly's shorten telomeres have been documented. Now, you could conceivable get around this problem if your donor cell was from a child.
As far as other defects are concerned, you must remember that you are moving delicate strands of DNA from one place and putting it somewhere else. There is no guarantee that the DNA you pinched is viable to begin with, though it may function well enough for that differentiated cell to work properly.
The problem, as has been pointed out elsewhere here, is that clones are susceptible to serious health problems -- their genotype may be identical, but their phenotype is radically altered. Although some work at Hawaii and Rockefeller University in New York suggests that clones can be created without the kinds of health and aging problems that plagued Dolly, those studies are far from definitive.
There's also the question of success rates. To get a viable human clone, you will have to make perhaps hundreds of attempts, all of which will take time, and many of which will end up in miscarriages and, potentially, the deaths of donor mothers. At this point in our understanding, the ethical and technological hurdles to successful cloning are substantial.
In any case, I'll believe it when I see the independently verified protocols and proof.
"Freedom is kind of a hobby with me, and I have disposable income that I'll spend to find out how to get people more."
(Sorry. Someone had to say it.)
Given this evidence it looks much more probable that this guy just got 5 chicks pregnant and is claming they're clones. Maybe he doesn't want the other 4 to know about the other 4?
You know, geeks are the perfect target for raelians...
' .
Rael [the guru of the raelian sect] recruits loonies that are often scientifically-inclined. This guy just found another good 'build-your-cult-and-steal-money-from-geeks-cheme
Here are the ingredients:
- Science fiction theme
- free sex
Of course, this cult is mostly drawing 'converts' thanks to the second item.
The story hit CNN at 9:41 EST. http://www.cnn.com/2002/HEALTH/12/27/human.cloning /index.html
-Lokatana
Here from our friends at CNN. More in the next week and month?
If I remember correctly, the cult's primary, er, "researcher" is an inorganic chemist. If she's going to create what would be a very organic clone, why not have a physicist verify the protocols and proofs?
"Freedom is kind of a hobby with me, and I have disposable income that I'll spend to find out how to get people more."
Hi,
I live in Quebec and the Raelians have operated in my neighbourhood for sometime now, mostly because of low property values and proximity to two high schools (more on this later).
The Raelians are little more than a sex cult, a swingers club for the poor, basically a group of washed-up strippers, drug addicts, and welfare recepients, who buy in to the so called teachings of a high-school drop out who calls himself "Rael". He preys on the lonely, the young, and the stupid.
This is absolutely and unquestioningly a fraud.
The story just hit CNN. Click Here.
-Lokatana
Fools they were not movies they were prophecies, Southpark the movie (blame Canada), Attack of the clones. The Ents from LOTR are of course GM chimeras, half human half maple syrup trees, they are coming to rot our teeth!
You may find the following article article very interesting.
Most cloning experiments done to date have resulted in abnormalities that manifested themselves later in the cloned animals life. Well, an animal can be put down pretty quickly, and the ethics behind doing so are mostly cut and dried. Not so with a human life, cloned or otherwise. If there is a life threatening condition down the road, the cloned person may have to endure a lot of pain and suffering that would have been avoided had they been a normal conception and birth. Bottom line, there is too much we don't know about cloning to rush to create a cloned human for the purposes of prestige only. This is not responsible or ethical science.
If they're anything like this then I'm in full support...
The religious and alien science stuff aside, this has huge potential.
Basic questions of existance are going to be answered, and argued. Nature vs. Nurture comes to mind first.
Is it true or a publicity stunt? According to the press conference we should know in 9 days.
The assumption I'll have to make until then based on the technical process used in animals and the care that can be taken in a lab, the previous efforts that resulted in test tube babies is that is is likely, and all it really took was someone with the resources and the will to do it.
As the project leader said in the news conference I hopr the press, governments, and the rest of the world give the girl, and the family some kindness.
As unlikely as that is, I hope they do, or we may have to wait decades for the child to reach an age where she can come forword on her own.
There's a good chance that the world changed again today, this time with a birth, not with a bomb.
Let's hope the child(ren) is/are healthy.
Question when this cloen dies before age five are they going to prosecute theis cul tfor murder?
We don't know enough about the embryonic genes, the ones used in cloning to be able to do this as a success..
Remember its not the turned on genes in human dna that are sued in cloning its the ones turned off in junk dan that are used..as we grow past an embryonic stage these genes are truned off..thats why human eggs look like fishes on a certain day past fertitization..
I knew that 7 majors of study to prepare for Ms in Molecular Biology was good for soemthing..
Don't Tread on OpenSource
...and I'll keep reloading...
I just talked to a canadian online, we can stop wondering now. "All a hoax. There was some farmer slaying som Ho's in British Columbia thought. I am from Saskatchewan. U?"
1. Found obscure cult involving aliens.
2. Ask "tithes" for support and basic nescecities. (6 acres of land, 4 million USD villa, heated swimming pool, turkish sauna, botanic garden, 4 wives, 4^n children, 3 Mercedes', 2 BMWs, 2 Cessnas, 1 Learjet, 1 converted Boeing 727 and a division of lawyers to keep the 4 wives from running away with all aforementioned "nescecities".)
3. Profit!
Hate me!
Raëlians are followers of Raël, a French-born former race-car driver who has said he met a four-foot space alien atop a volcano in southern France in 1973 and went aboard his ship, where he was entertained by voluptuous female robots and learned that the first humans were created 25,000 years ago by space travelers called Elohim, who cloned themselves.
Too bad. If they were located in NASCAR Country, we could expect cloned version of Dale Earnhardt, Sr, surrounded by a bevy of beauties from Winner's Circle.
Mod Karma -1: I sed bad wurds. If I cep my mouf shut, I wud be at riyses.
i have come to cleen zee poool, zee geen-poool. alastavista cloney... baby got back.
I know you are psychotic, but please make an effort.
If this is true, may their respective deities/aliens/etc. reward them.
Science should not, and will not be stopped by the fear, uncertainity and doubt spread by the fundamentalists whose leaders are afraid of losing it all.
What are you afraid of? That we may one day prove that your deity doesn't exist? That in the end, we will find that when you die, you become fertilizer and nothing more?
What drives people to insist that a clone is a carbon copy of a person, able to, say, assassinate the original and sleep with his wife, ala the Simpsons?
Tear down the temples and build more laboratories. Humanity is awakening.
Do your part... continue slashdotting a cult leader!
"Truth is not decided by majority vote" consensus gentium -- Norman Geisler
When the clone came out on xmas, did it play ogg files of some kid singing "hallelugah"? Did it then broker a settlement between Sony and Nintendo? DID IT FILE A SUIT AGAINST FREETYPE??
"They informed Vorilhon (the cult leader) that he was the final prophet -- sent to relay a message of peace and sensual meditation to humankind under his new name of Raël -- before the Elohim would return to Jerusalem in 2025"
Well, at least they'll all know in 2025 that it's a crock of s***...
"Truth is not decided by majority vote" consensus gentium -- Norman Geisler
If there is a life threatening condition down the road, the cloned person may have to endure a lot of pain and suffering that would have been avoided had they been a normal conception and birth.
I do believe it's important to point out that the "normal conception and birth" isn't an option for this person -- either they're born as a clone, or they live and die their entire life as but a single cell from the "superior original".
How supremely odd...a ban on cloning is, literally, a denial of a right to life -- one that extends before even conception.
--Dan
I'm surprised that over the past year or two, in all the furor over real cloning, that nobody has looked a decade or two into the past.
There was a claim and book, "In His Image" written by someone who claimed to have performed human cloning. Don't remember the year, but the name "David Rorvik" was attached to it. Don't know if it was the father, son, or author.
The living have better things to do than to continue hating the dead.
Actually - I find it kind of interesting you attribute IM shorthand with "nerd" behavior. I always considered shorthand a crutch for those who couldn't type fast enough to use regular words. Someone new to a keyboard. More mundane and less nerd, if you will.
Ironically, out of the adult population, its usually business types that I see using this. And an over-abundance of emoticons. They get some little IM dictionary with their two-way text pager and go hog-wild. They're now part of the "in" wired crowd and want to show it. Right before going back to some email full of terms like synergy and paradigm.
Having said that, to each their own. For me, it does interfere with communication. And it might be worth noting that. After all, its up to the writer to convey their message - even if it carries baggage they didn't intend. But I'm more than happy to let the author have their way.
I suppose spelling (your / you're) and other rules apply here too. But then, I'm pretty bad when it comes to that stuff. So I'll refrain from comment.
How is it that
is considered the irrational belief of a "lunatic cult", yet is the basic belief by hundreds of millions of "normal people" throughout the world.Especially considering both theories have the same amount of scientific evidence to back them up.
ucann bet your .asp that most of those frauds (i'm not saying lairy/robbIE is won), are dumping their worth less payper at EVERY opportunity, whilst assuring J., that the gooed times will return.
some are saying hangin's too good for the skalywags.
the -1 "score" on the on-topic response must be about not mentioning lairy's g(n)ame (who says there's no ?pr? guise wearing tuxes), just like he never says the g word anymore. fair is fair, enough?
.. probably not just a coincidence that Eve was born on Christmas. Probably also not a coincidence that she was named Eve...
I wonder if the birth date and name were a part of the contract that the parents had to sign?
Live web cams
As far as I'm concerned, religions are all equally bullshit. And the Raelian cult makes no exception. But I find the engineering theory way more believable than the christian creation stuff, when it comes to the origin of life on Earth. Am I the only one?
I'm sure as hell this post will be "cloned" quite soon, too.
Isn't a clone just a fancy pointer. Hey, that's me over there!
From the CNN article: "Claude Vorilhon, who founded the Raelians, told CNN in July 2001 that the long-term goal for human cloning is to live forever. Vorilhon says cloning a baby is only the first step: Eventually the group wants to learn how to clone an adult, then "transfer the brain to the clone."
Haven't these people ever heard of senility? The brain decays just as fast as the rest of the body. So they will put a dying brain in the body of an teenager. (Yes.. it has to be a teenager otherwise the skull won't be large enough). So you'll end up with a teenager that can't remember where he's been.
"I drank what?" - Socrates
The baby may have leg's too, unless they cloned Lieutenant Dan :)
Ubuntu- Linux for human beings.
From the articles that I have read on this very suspect claim it hints that they used the same method as was used with Dolly. I did my Senior Thesis on Geron, the company that purchased the rights to the methode that cloned Dolly; therefore, I have a fare understanding of what is involved with Nuclear Transfer. Although I am not an expert and have never attempted the process in a lab, I have read enough to know that it is a terrible idea to try this on humans at this point.
There is a easy to understand FAQ on the Roslin Institute web site written by the people that actually cloned Dolly. Here are some interesting highlights:
Are clone embryos like IVF and normal pregnancies?
Not so far. The scientists at the Roslin Institute, who pioneered this work, have repeatedly found that the clone foetuses grow much larger than normal ones, and there is a much higher chance of the pregnancy failing, of stillbirth, or of forced Caesarean sections. Dolly was the one successful pregnancy of more than 277 embryos.
What do the experts think? "I think you are always going to run the risk of having aging DNA," says Professor Lord Robert Winston, an IVF pioneer. "I would hate to think of a child of mine being cloned because I think it would be very likely he would have an accelerated aging process." Dr Jamie Grifo, director of the division of reproductive endocrinology at New York University, says: "Cloning is no better than any of the other treatments that are out there. A biological child is the husband's sperm, the wife's egg. A clone is not a biological child." Dr David Stevens, of the Christian Medical and Dental Society, asks: "Are we really willing to sacrifice hundreds of embryos - developing human beings - to make one baby who may suffer monstrous consequences?"
So, there are two very important points that must be stressed. The first is that there is a high percentage probability of genetic defect supported by further experiments. Think of the threat of genetic abnormalities in a fetus that managed to survive as much higher than if you had children with immediate family members.
The second is that each cell has an "age" that is determined by the number of times that a cell has divided. If you use DNA from adult cells that have divided many times, than all of the cells cloned from that DNA will be older. A cell can only dived around 50 times before it dies at which point you reach the Hayflick Limit. Although there are ways to prolong the life of cell lines similar to the way cancer spreads through a body, I doubt that this group of individuals thought of adding telomeres back to the end of the chromosomes that would be used to clone a human baby.
People have a habit of claiming many things that never happened for publicity or for shock value. Unless it is PROVEN to be a clone by reputable geneticists, I will not believe it.
jason
No one has seen what you have seen, and until that happens, we're all going to think that you're nuts. - Jack O'Neil
This is incredibly hard to prove, because of "ethical" and "privacy" reasons there is going to be no way to prove this. We don't know where the baby is born, there's no picture, there's no video tape or any other details.
So now, the cloners are allowing a freelance journalist to get together a group of scientists and they're going to take samples of DNA from the mother and the child and send them back. How much do you want to bet that they won't let the scientists take the actual samples?
For example, I could give you two samples of my own DNA and tell you I have a clone. The microchondial DNA would of course be identical.
There's going to be more to this story once these journalists and scientists get to the location.
In God is Red, a native view of religion. The author has a chapter about how the rise of near-eastern religions has some unexplained phenomenom that could theoretically support an exterterestial thesis. This idea came to rise thanks to populer writers having cited a catalog of strange and unexplained items such as:
Most arguments provide no substantial or prolonged argument to this point. One writer did try to present a comprehensive view of an ancient astronaut invasion and the consequences it had on the earth.
Zecharia Sitchin, in a four book series titled Earth Chronicles, cites many reasons to why the rise of Kingship and urban settlements could be attributed to an astronaut presence on earth.
While some of Sitchin's idea's beg credibility, there is a startling resemblence in some of the conclusions reached by Samuel Noah Kramer, an orthodox scholar of Sumerian studies and archeology. His book, History Begins at Sumer, endorses astronauts engaged in genetic engineering for a worker race.
To sum up his conclusions, he relates the possibilities of an urban-astronaut living amongst humans as compared to southern whites living amongst slaves in the Civil War era. If you remember the Old Testamet, god fairly vengeful and demanding of social graces of the people. The basic question on hand is what are the origins of civilized (or rather, urban) life and corresponding religion. How did it develop separate from all the native people around the world?
Believe it or not, but native people also have some stories about people visiting them, either cultural heros or possibly blond-haired white men. In either case, such a proposition had little affect on native people as they did not become so entrenched in urban life.
Scientifically it is interesting to note that copper was believed to been invented in ovens when cooking (ie some ore was used in the cooking-ware) and at the end there was some shinny copper when the ore was smelted. Well, to do this the primitive people would have to have cooked with a 1500 degree centigrade fire. Did someone see to do this in a vision? Were they lucy? Or did someone show them?
I personally lean towards vision or dumb luck.. what do others think?
1) Their leader is French.
2) He calls himself "Rael," moved to Canada, and started a cult.
3) This cult believes that aliens created humans from DNA they brought to Earth.
4) The cult's headquarters is called "UFO Land."
5) They claim to have cloned a human.
Now, why the hell should I believe 5 if 1-4 serve to discredit any idea that intelligence and legitimacy may be present here?
Hollywood... Florida. Still appropriate for a religious cult claiming to understand science.
What funny news this morning. Religious clones (do we really need more?) and a town -- wait, more like a few shacks and a backhoe -- sells for over $1.6 million on eBay!
Wonder what I could sell my clone for on eBay!? : P
There are some ads in the "Related links" section, although I've disabled ALL ads (I'm a subscriber, just posting as AC). I was wondering why it displayed a link to Compare the best prices on: Software/Utilities along with all the cloning links.. I clicked the link and then it hit me: They're selling DVD X Copy (Backup, Copy & Restore your DVD Movies). Quite clever.
...I will create a grand army of the Republic, to combat this seperatist threat.
(Muffelled cheers as someone yells "Send in the clones!")
Informatus Technologicus
Natural parthenogenesis in mammalian species is considerably more common than most people think, and is considered normal in certain breeds of mice, cattle, and camels, occuring as a result of defective egg cells. In the vast majority of cases, mammalian parthenogenesis fails to produce offspring and results in noncancerous ovarian tumors.
However, such parthenogenic ova can produce clones of their mother when (A) they are simultaniously ovulated into a receptive womb, e.g., shortly after an ordinary egg which became fertilized, and (B) contain a diploid nucleus. Although ova are supposed to be haploid some human haploid cells are naturally diploid. Presumably this is an ordinary kind of haploid mutation.
Although it is difficult to estimate the rate of occurance of natural human parthenogenic offspring, it is probably more common than one in a billion over the course of a modern human female lifespan, meaning that there are probably already a handful of clones on the planet. ["Wow, you really do look like your mother."]
Imagine the rash of Fan Cloning we'd have if/when this becomes "Cheap and Easy"(tm).
--- I wish I could hear the soundtrack to my life. That way I'd know when to duck.
Here is the news from CNN HOLLYWOOD, Florida (CNN) -- The controversial group Clonaid on Friday said a newborn girl called Eve is a clone.
The group's scientific director said the child was born Thursday in an unnamed country. Clonaid was founded by a religious movement called the Raelians, the doctrine of which believes that life on Earth was created by extraterrestrials.
If the cloning assertion is true, the birth would be the first ever human clone. Brigitte Boisselier, scientific director of Clonaid, made her statement at a news conference and has arranged for a physicist named Michael Guillen, former science correspondent for ABC News, to independently verify the claim.
Boisselier offered no immediate proof of her claim -- or photographs of the baby. She said the baby is healthy, and that the whole family is "very happy." She also said the baby's grandmother thinks she looks just like her mother.
She says the baby will go home in three days, and an independent expert will take DNA samples from the baby to prove she had been cloned. Those results are expected within a week after the testing.
Boisselier had told a congressional committee last year that she believed she had the knowledge to produce a human clone in the near future.
Clonaid, which calls itself the "first human cloning company," was founded in 1997. Boisselier is a bishop in the Raelian movement.
Claude Vorilhon, who founded the Raelians, told CNN in July 2001 that the long-term goal for human cloning is to live forever. Vorilhon says cloning a baby is only the first step: Eventually the group wants to learn how to clone an adult, then "transfer the brain to the clone."
Boisselier says the immediate purpose for cloning is to help infertile couples. Last November, she told CNN she was "indeed doing human cloned embryos and we have many cell divisions," but she wouldn't confirm any pregnancies.
No data released
To make a clone, scientists first take an egg and remove all of its genetic material. Then the nucleus of a cell -- any cell in the body -- is taken from the individual to be cloned and inserted into the hollowed-out egg.
The cell is then given a jolt of electricity or put in a chemical bath to activate cell division -- essentially tricking the cell into doing what a fertilized egg would normally do. Then the embryo is implanted into a woman's uterus to be carried to term.
It is unknown which exact procedure -- if any -- Clonaid used, because it has not published or released any data about its research.
Boisselier has not revealed the location of her current lab, only to say it is no longer in the United States. She used to have a lab in West Virginia, but the U.S. Food and Drug Administration visited the lab and shut it down.
Scientists so far have successfully cloned sheep, cows, goats, mice, pigs and a rare wild ox. But human cloning is controversial, because the experience with animal cloning has shown a lot of potential for things to go wrong.
'One shouldn't do this'
Many animal cloners -- including Ian Wilmut, the Scottish researcher who successfully cloned the first animal, Dolly the sheep, in 1997 -- disapprove of human cloning. Wilmut has said it took 276 failed attempts before Dolly was successfully cloned.
"It is not responsible at this stage to even consider the cloning of humans, " said Rudolf Jaenisch, a biologist at MIT's Whitehead Institute for Biological Research, which clones mice.
Janeisch said that even if a human clone appears healthy, it may not be once it gets older. Cloning a human at this point, he said, without knowing more about why things go wrong, is "essentially using humans as guinea pigs, and one shouldn't do this."
According to Dr. Jon Hill, a veterinarian who successfully cloned cows at Texas A&M University, even clones who appear normal at birth often develop problems afterward.
"Their livers, their lungs, their heart, their blood vessels are often abnormal after birth," Hill said.
Few legal prohibitions The Raelians are not the only group claiming to actively try to clone a human.
Italian doctor Severino Antinori made several announcements in recent months, claiming that a woman was carrying a human clone that would be born in January 2003. And former University of Kentucky professor Panos Zavos has also announced plans to clone a human, but he told CNN earlier this year he had not successfully created an embryo yet.
Scientists and bioethicists have questioned whether any of these groups have the ability to clone a human. Art Caplan, director of the Center for Bioethics at the University of Pennsylvania, has said in the past that "we don't know how" to accomplish human cloning.
Legally, there's very little to stop scientists from cloning. In January, the National Academy of Sciences recommended a ban on human cloning, but only four states -- California, Michigan, Louisiana and Rhode Island -- ban any type of cloning research.
The FDA claims it has jurisdiction over human cloning based on the Public Health Service and Food, Drug and Cosmetic Act. It says it would regulate the cloning process like a drug.
What, me Tweet?
It is a well known fact that reputation and peer review are hallmarks of the scientific community. To be regarded as legit, you must publish your work in a respected journal that is peer reviewed. To be credible, you must have a solid reputation for producing publishable work that follows the rigorous methods of science and is repeatable. Having said that, do you think that the Raelian Movement has both requirments (reputation and peer review) to be credible scientists? I think I'll wait for the publications to be peer reviewed and the findings replicated before I believe this story.
To know is to have knowledge....to understand is to be enlightened.
By that reasoning, nothing can be unethical. Ethical thought is by nature subjective, and if "Because Jesus said so" is an invalid reason, I think you'd be hard pressed to find some kind of "real reason" that wasn't, somehow, first determined by a human.
--sdem
You know, let's just assume for a minute, that this cult church of loons has succeeded in producing a full clone of an already living human subject. Let's focus on the benefits of this technology.
If we know how to keep the DNA strand together and create a living human embryo from it, then the next step is truly wonderful.
Gene Splicing.
Muhahahahahaahahahahh!!! It's only a matter of time now before I can splice the genes of a calico with a Swedish bikini model and live out all of my anime fantasies!
Yesterday, clones of sheep
Today, clones of humans
Tomorrow, clones of cat chicks!
Meow!
I now return you to your regularly scheduled delusions.
"Genius may shine aloof and alone, like a star, but goodness is social, and it takes two men and God to make a Brother."
Unless, you consider ALL organized religions cults, but that's less likely than you just don't respect them because they're not like you.
Yes, mod me down for slandering "michael"...
*sheesh*... well, I'm going to go use my "calculator", i mean, my unix workstation.
PS: if you think this is stupid semantics, try refering to judeo-christianity as a "cult" whilst visiting the vatican.
*^%&^&^%&^^$*&$!!!!! F***!
south park mothers were right!
it's always Canada's fault!!!
blame Canada!!! blame Canada!!!
-- SouNerd.com
Silly people.
what scares me is that they say publicly that it took 5 failed miscarriages before they were able to create Eve...
i wonder how many other secret cloned pregancies are in the world and if you add up all of the failed miscarriages, it could be hundreds.
these scientists are the most naive people on the face of the planet. its amazing to me, the level of stupidity that can exist in an educated person; that they think they can predict no birth defects through cloning... the horror! Eve is going to be a beast uglier than Jackson. Mark my words!
title sez it all
Umm, the female plumbing is much more complicated than the male. All the male system does is squirt out some liquid with little swimmy things.
The female system, on the other hand, has to accomodate all different sizes of input nozzles and provide the proper environment for the swimmy things. Every month it also has to pop out a floaty thing, which might interact with the swimmy things. If it does, all new plumbing has to be hooked up to provide food for the future person, and the female's pipes have to expand in size to huge proportions. Later, her plumbing will have to push this new person out into the world and return to normal size. A whole different set of operations takes place if there aren't any little swimmy things to hook up to the floaty thing.
Of course, you shouldn't be expected to know this, since you are obviously still in elementary school.
does anyone else think this reaks of a hoax?
and did anyone else see the interview with the lead scientist on cnn this morning?
she looks like the bride of frankenstein.
I would have grave doubts of the mental health of anybody who would clone themselves. The aggogance involved in actually wanting another one of you running about, probably making all the same mistakes that you made through your life would probably drive most people insane. Its bad enough with "normal" parents, but with a clone it could only be 100 times worse.
Also, has anybody considered how these people will be treated by there peers? like some kind of frankenstine, i can only emagine the life of torment that that child will recieve.
forget moral, religious or other beliefs, its just not right, full stop.
"A religious cult, the Raelians..."
Funny how when fifty-thousand people think earth was settled by aliens they are a cult, but when a billion people believe that earth was created by an invisible man in the sky, that group is a religion.
Dude, anyone can make beer.
However, good beer can be made only in a handful of breweries in the world, requires specialized equipment, top of the line ingredients, and a tremendous degree of technical skill with years of experience.
--Fac Iustum Nec Time-- --Veritas Prevalibit--
Your goals are too modest--I think the deep thought, humane empathy, and tolerance expressed by this AC deserve not only to be imitated in the US but all over the globe.
In fact, I think in a lot of places they already are quite standard.
Making trouble today for a better tomorrow...
Anyone ever heard of identical twins?
Can't find anyone who posted it, so I'll point out th eCBC story as well. Doubt it has anything the others don't, but I'm in the middle of making breakfast so I'm not going to check quite yet.
--Dan
The obligatory:
4. ???
5. Profit!
Sorry, I had to...
I just submitted this story by accident.
current odds of it being published to the front page:
20:1
paypal me the money at paypal@paypal.com
Funny how when fifty-thousand people think earth was settled by aliens they are a cult, but when a billion people believe that earth was created by an invisible man in the sky, that group is a religion.
Yeah, college students always find that sort of thing ironic, until they grow up (or they don't grow up, and become professors).
If you really can't see the difference, I'm not sure what to tell you. But I suspect that you can; I give you more credit than that.
Actually, what I find funny is the opposite; would-be clever folk will believe anything but the wisdom of the ages. Witness, the cult in the story.
Begun this Clone War is!
When I am king, you will be first against the wall.
The raelians are in desperate need for attention.
Last winter, they went out of their ways to try to recruit new prospect in high schools all over the province (of Quebec). Their new idea to recruit was to distribute crosses(+) to kids so they could burn them and therefore get un-baptised.
Is it just me or are they just in desperate need for attention?
I would personally stay VERY skeptical over any claim these psycho-clowns will make.
First Post!
Just what we need, a bunch of stoned Canadiens...
"It's too bad that stupidity isn't painful." - Anton LaVey
Hearing no objection to the motion, the board assumes a motion on the motion. As there is no objection to that either, the motion on the motion is passed, and also, the original motion has been PASSED!
Ballistic Missile Readout
H:MM
SLBM 1: ETA 1:01
SLBM 2: ETA 2:05
SLBM 3: ETA 0:12
SLBM 4: ETA 0:04
SLBM 5: ETA 4:54
--
ICBM 1: ETA 1:33
ICBM 2: ETA 1:45
ICBM 3: ETA 1:44
ICBM 4: ETA 1:32
ICBM 5: ETA 0:30
ICBM 6: ETA 0:36
ICBM 7: ETA 0:59
--
MRBM 1: ETA 0:24
MRBM 2: ETA 2:22
The question was answered in the second paragraph of the article:
The Raelians, a religious cult based in Quebec
They're from Quebec. Obviously, they're crazy. Those people can't even answer a simple oui or non question, let alone clone a human. Next story, please...
Blog Prophyts - Right On, Man
that Einstein's face is associated with this kind of dribble?
Actually, there's nothing wrong with the word "cult".
In French, any religious stream is called a "culte", and any church or temple is called a "lieu de culte" which literally means "cult location".
Unfortunately the word cult in the English language has had a rather painful encounter with the ACME Word Twister (TM).
Never underestimate the power of stupidity
To err is human, to moo bovine
its canada, it's a cult, it's not been ID'd or col-aberated.
shut up with your bigotry.Will you assholes ever learn to respect other religions or do you need a few more 9/11s to get it through your thik skulls.
So if I make up a new religion right now completely from scratch, does that mean the world has to immediately respect it under your moral system? What if I use my powers of persuasion to convince 5 people that it is true; does that change things? What does it take: 5 believers, 50, 500, 5000?
We (really are) the world.
Actually, they have tried that, but it always resulted in death by various kinds of cancers.
The system that causes aging causes cells to not be able to divide more than a certain amount of times. This system does not exist to cause aging. Actually, aging is a side effect. Most probably, the real reason for this cell aging system is to prevent cancer. In cancers, cells will divide uncontrollably. Thus, eventually, they will reach their maximum number of divisions and die off.
Take away the aging system, and cancers can roam free...
Never underestimate the power of stupidity
To err is human, to moo bovine
D'accord, quand est ce qu'on commence ?
I figured this story would show up on CTV. If it were really newsworthy, it would have shown up on the CBC. CTV is a low-rent version of a network that only tries to emulate the wasteland that American broadcast TV has become, especially network news, with the day's road accidents and government sex scandals leading.
Check out Ottawa's CJOH. The news anchor, one Max Keeping, is a fucking child molester perv!
for one successful Dolly sheep clone there were several (maybe 200) failures. I think human cloning has been tried out in secret in many labs round the world, but hasnt been made public due to some defects. But cloning like this is nothing.
wait for tutankhaman or borgias (first such post) or... adolf to be cloned. There was a book on adolf clones some years ago. soon there may be mammoth ---or neanderthal clones too.
hmm. this just keeps reminding me of the movie Gatica.
rofl...whether or not you like Christianity much, Jesus WAS an actual person judging by what historians say. He even got crucified and all that good stuff as best the historians can tell....fuck me...they had a special on exactly that on TLC the other night. I can at least understand WHY there is a Christian religeon and I am kinda respect that...just like Islam, the Jewish faith, and even Bhuddism (sp?), etc.
This is NOT some mystical alien dropping by in the mothership to tell this retarded Frenchman the way of the world....I think that kinda warrents a little further skeptisism. It sounds very $cientologist.
Ugh...why I am responding to a troll.
this baby might be the first clone instead of the canadian one..
The world's first cloned baby was born on 26 December, claims the Bahamas-based cloning company Clonaid. But there has been no independent confirmation of the claim.
my blog
shut up with your bigotry.
Fuck you.
Will you assholes ever learn to respect other religions or do you need a few more 9/11s to get it through your thik skulls.
Eat my shit, moron. Just because you and others like you are weak-minded sheep who need to believe that your neurotic delusions are real doesn't mean that I have to respect your worthless asses.
Does not anyone see it, 10 years ago it was the bush adminstration, with powell, chainy et al. attacking Iraq. Present day, Bush , powell et al, want to attack iraq.
In Soviet Russia, YOU are the clone!
Wether this particular case is true or not is rather inconsequential. The fact is that someone _will_ clone a person. It is just a matter of when.
1. Have charismatic Prophet
2. Profit!
3. Prophet dies
4. Profit dies
5. ???
6. Clone dead Prophet
7. Prophet!
8. Profit!
Read it out loud: you'll sound like a frog.
Table-ized A.I.
Groups like this must be controlled, even if they operate across international borders. We can already splice gene sequences from one species into another. To my knowledge that has not been done with humans, but if we allow rogue groups like this to do whatever they want, what's to stop them from combining genes from another species with a cloned human, to further their own ends? We are verging on the ability to control our own evolution, or the here-to-fore random genetic changes which have characterized the development of all known life during the course of all known time on earth, and we are leaving it to the Raelians. Off-the-wall organizations such as the Raelians, which operate without respect for proper scientific method and basic ethics, cannot be allowed to pursue this line of experimentation. The stakes are too high.
Actually, cloning is the worste possible solution. You end up with a time-delayed twin of one "parent" that shares zero DNA with the other "parent.
No, a better way to deal with fertility issues (at least with male infertility) is an interesting technology being developed by a group of Australians that can use any cell in the body as an erzats sperm cell that can be used in traditional artificiial insemination techniques. They expose the doner cell to a particular hormone that causes it to spit out half of every chromozome pair, resulting in an erzats sperm cell. One unanticipated aspect of this research is that becuase ANY cell (with a nucleus) can be used the "father" cell can come from a female body just as easily as from a male. Making it possible for lesbian couples to have children with BOTH women being genetic parents of the resulting daughter.
I don't have the link to the article I read all this in anymore. A bit of searching and you might find it.
Boobies never hurt anyone. - Sherry Glaser.
Canada is finally Number One in something besides smelly, draft-dodging hippies.
Dragging people kicking and screaming into reality since 1996.
Sounds an awful lot like the whole cold fusion debacle. Giving any of this crap attention before any scientific evidence has been provided does nothing more than further the junk science problem that the scientific community has recently been plagued with. I'm appalled that Slashdot would even dignify,what amount to just a statement,with any mention of it. When they have scientific evidence that substantiates their claims, then get excited.
In italy in all the means (tv, newspapers etc; an exmple here: http://www.repubblica.it/online/scienza_e_tecnolog ia/embrione/clonaid/clonaid.html ) they are tellling that this case was in America. And here America = USA, i would like to shake the hournalists here.... !!! ... what 100 % of people here understand as = USA. >:O
Some of them have read the word "Miami" in some papers, thus they are telling this kid was born in America
no
mstyne: real name, no gimmicks
who recall the Story of Frankenstein?
Not the monster from the movies, but the actual book, written by Mary Shelley in the 19th Century.
It's exactly what she was writing about: the ethics of scientific work, the disasterous consequences from Man trying to be God.
Read it. It's Prophetic.
PS: English is not my First Language, so forgive me for any mistake.
PENAROL: Seras eterno como el tiempo y floreceras en cada primavera.
healyourchurchwebsite.com - WWJB?
Oh, and by the way, the stupid lameness filter isn't letting me put linebreaks in the lyrics - anyone know a way around this? If you want it with the linebreaks, I found the lyrics here.
The first ever Ultimate Frisbee video game: here (now
and there's problems it will set back all cloning research 50 years with the wave of legislation that will be enacted outlawing cloning of all forms.
Shop smart, Shop S-Mart.
The "free sex" angle just gets young men hooked and young girls broken before they realize that the only ones getting free sex are the cult leaders.
I think you are stuck in the Victorian world of maternal purity. 10,000 years of human civilization has condemned women for their grotesque sexual nature, but the British decided it was the exact opposite because they had to defend their foolish choice to have a female dictator. They are wrong. It is men who are enslaved by female sexuality, and it is young girls who torture men as they perfect their art of manipulation.
Your error is you presume sexuality has any relevence in our humanity. Maybe it is for women, as their entire self image is dependent upon the level of desire they can provoke in men. But that means they should have sex as often as possible, thus reaffirming them that they are sexually desirable.
If there is any cult which is more destructive to human happiness, its the constant assertion that sex has some intrinsic value far greater than the other bodily urges such as eating or defacating. The worst part about this neurotic focus on sexuality is that it is, at its heart, animalistic. It is the believe that humans (and men in particular) are like cattle, who desire nothing more than to eat and fuck. The creative qualities which make us human and differentiate us from cattle are completely ignored by the do-gooder obssessed with sex.
The reality is sex is cheap. Its easy to get laid, but prostitution would make a lot of geeks much healthier and happier people. Free sex does sell, but only because we live in a restrictive matriarchy which uses sex as a tool of control over men. 200 years ago, young men learned at an early age what sex was all about and cheap and plentiful prostitutes made sure that no female would dominate a man with her pussy. There were no pussy whipped men in the 18th century. You wanted sex, you got. Sex was an urge to be satisified at will, not parceled out on like carrot on a stick.
You, friend, are someone who has bought into this sick system of slavery. You need to get laid, and often. Otherwise you are going to turn 40 and realize what a fool you have been.
Maasculinity is the driving force behind human civilization. Male sexuality is one aspect of the male creative spirit. It is minor in comparison to our rational and imaginitive abilities, but it is a necessary part.
Any group that actively recruits is dangerous because it inevitably puts the welfare of the group ahead that of its members.
Do you really believe that? Any group which active recruits members is inherently dangerous? What about a company which needs employees? What about the military? Hell, governments ALWAYS put the welfare of the group ahead of its members.
Recruiting school children into a cult ranks around the same as giving them free heroine.
Its spelled "Heroin" btw. That was the trademark diacetylmorphine was sold as by the Bayer corporation. Its a common analogy to abuse these days. Instead saying that human beings make many decisions not through rational deliberation, but due to biochemical conditioning many say something like is Heroin. Yeah, we have all heard it before. Any time someone seems to do something irrational, it because they were a foolish addict. The only problem is cult members don't break out with goosebumps, have uncontrolable muscle spasms, sneeze incessantly, or any other manifestation of physical withdrawal when they are abruptly removed from their cult. I think you really need to experience some narcotic withdrawal before you make that comment. Drug withdrawal is a radically different thing that not belong to a group any longer.
Post Scriptum
I am an atheist, but I believe it is human nature to form groups around a similar ideology. We are a social species, and the political correct world we have today that demands conformity in all mannerisms has left many feeling lost and confused. They cling to these groups to provide some reassurance that they really aren't just one worthless prick out of six billion. These cults are not drugs, but are manifestations of the isolation caused by these modern times. Your simplistic condemnation of these folks neglects their own freedom and humanity. They don't think like you, but that does not mean they have lost their free will like a rat on a cocaine IV.
For more interesting reading on how masculinity is superior to femininity I highly suggest reading these excerpts from the fabulous comic Cerebus.
I don't read or respond to AC posts
There's some professor of medical ethics from UPenn that always shows up as a pundit on news shows about this kind of thing. I heard him on NPR sometime about two weeks ago, and he predicted that exactly this would happen.
Someone would announce that they had cloned a child, and then not give enough evidence for the world to verify the claims. They would act as if they were protecting the child and the family from the ravenous world media. Which would be true. He'd get to look like a hero. He'd get to be all over the news. A quick look shows that they've got more than headlines in Canada.
Of course, this being a cult, it might be more like the Scientologists when they had their first "clear". They might believe themselves too much, and allow world media access to the clone/clear and prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that this is not a clone/perfect human being/whatever.
There are no trails. There are no trees out here.
Look at the mess they caused when MADTV cloned Arnold Schwartzenegger. We'd be doomed if human cloning continues!
Honestly, I'm not trolling, nor am I being intentionally obtuse. But I'm having a difficult time understanding what is morally 'wrong' about clonging.
Personally, I find the notion of human cloning distasteful but I suspect that is only because I haven't fully considered the potential benefits.
As far as moral objections to human cloning, I've heard relatively little. The religious fundamentalists are generally outraged, of course: they seem to believe that only god (specifially, their god) can create a human life--despite the fact that human reproduction has been functioning remarkably well for ~100,000 years and that no divine intervention appears to be required (otherwise, how could atheists have babies?). Identical twins/triplets/x-lets have identical DNA; how is this morally different from human cloning?
I have heard concerns regarding cloning an adult human whose DNA have 'aged', but how is this different from a woman giving birth at age 40? A woman does not genereate new eggs throughout her life; the eggs she's born with are all the eggs she'll ever have. Thus, the DNA in those eggs should be just as subject to 'aging' as the DNA in any other cells in her body. Even so, that's not a moral objection, that's a technical issue.
From the standpoint of genetic diversity, cloning is certainly undesirable. Clones of individuals, especially individuals who carry a genetic defect (such as an inability to reproduce) do nothing to enhance the survivability of that particular genetic line. Additionally, diseases or conditions that afflict an individual will certainly afflict the individual's clones in the same way, thus further reducing the survivability of that genetic line. But that, while unfortunate, hardly rises to the level of moral argument.
No, what I'm hearing from political and religious leaders is that human cloning is 'just wrong'. No explanation is offered, no justification of why it should be considered wrong, only that it is.
Now, the way in which clones are used can easily rise to a level of morality, just as the application of most any scientific knowledge can raise moral issues. But cloning itself does not seem to me to be any more wrong than, say, breeding race horses. Yet, almost universally, human cloning is regarded as abhorrent.
I would like very much to hear well-reasoned arguments why human cloning should be considered morally objectionable. Those of you with strong religious views are welcome to participate in the discussion, but please limit your remarks to rational, not reactionary, arguments. i.e. if you insist on positing that humans were specially created by god--a view that I cannot share, your argument is of no value to me.
Keep in mind, I am not arguing that human cloning is 'right', I am only seeking opinions about why it should be considered 'wrong'.
Karma
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/021227/16 1/2xrjp.html
Anyone else think that, that lady is exactly what you would picture the person that would announce such a feat to be.
She just looks so damn...fanatical
forget it.
If they are cloning people now, I wanna go thaw out John Wayne and get me my very own dinosaur too..cause hell, if were gonna tamper with nature may as well make it worth our while...
So what you are saying is that Mary could have been a virgin and given birth to Jesus, but only if Jesus was a girl?
:)
Heretic....Time for a stoning
"French motoring journalist and racing car driver, who renamed himself Rael after supposedly being visited in 1973 by a member of the Elohim. He described his visitor as being about 3-feet tall with long black hair, almond-shaped eyes, olive skin and exuding "harmony and humor."
Ummm, 1973? I think this was a bad acid trip.
from what little reading I've done on the topic. This whole discussion reminds of one of y'all's slashdot sig: Cult: a small, unpopular religion. Religion: A large, popular cult.
I think with the interesting people, their lives can't possibly be wrapped up into a nice little package.
a group of Texas A&M scientists have been working on the cloning of dogs and cats, for several years; and only recently succeeded in cloning a cat for the frst time. here are lots of techical challenges (telomeres), lack of complete expression of all the genes etc.)
And take that with the fact that these folks are probably a cult, it is probably a hoax.
Oh, and I'd like to sell you some land on the moon.
I fully support science and carry very few extraneous moral laws other than those that allow me to be a good person.
Yet I am against cloning.
Quite simply, by perpetuating the same dna reduces the chances for the survival of the human race. Evolution and all forms of natural reproduction (sexual,asexual) invlolve some method of varying dna so the new organism will have a better chance to survive. Cloning is a form of conservation that is counter-intuitive to life itself. I believe cloning is not an issue the world should concern itself with for there are more urgent matters to be taken care of first.
I come from Quebec, where that bozo does a lot of his recruiting. I can't believe this jackass could come up with a clone. This man is a lunatic, has been the farce of the entire province for years and no one takes his seriously, except for his followers.
They believe that aliens colonized earth with germs and created humans in their labarotories. They promote masturbation as a way of life, sex with multiple women at a time (especially for the leader of the cult, Rael) and are in favor of fixing the legal age to 16 years old.
And now they claim that they have made a clone? Gimme a break!
that some scientists aren't beholden to politicians or businessmen. Granted, the cost for these techniques is in the prohibitive range for any normal person, but you can get a few like minded people (i.e. not requiring politicians to determine their work) together, and they can do a fair bit. This is more of a testament to the human need to do something, simply because it's something that hasn't been done before.
slightly different usage is the more commonly known Biblical Hebrew word "Yahweh"
More specifically, the name of God is written in the Torah/Old Testament as YHVH (Hebrew: "Yud-hey-vahv-hey) AKA the Tetragrammaton, which many scholars believe was pronounced "Yahweh." No one can be really sure about that unless a way is found to travel back in time before 70 CE though =).
"...always new atoms but always doing the same dance, remembering what the dance was yesterday." -Richard Feynman
If they don't let the scientists take the actual samples, then everyone'll pack up and the whole thing'll be put down as a hoax. Regardless of whether it's true or not. A lot of people are just looking for an excuse to call these people a bunch of idiots and dump them on their ass.
These Raelian folks have apparently put a lot of money and effort into this project, whatever it is, and I get the distinct impression that a primary goal is self-publicizing. If the Raelians come across as anything less than above-board, all that money and effort goes down the drain, and nobody'll ever give them a second thought.
The end result will be that we read about the first verified case of human cloning five years from now instead of five months.
Unless you've been through the struggle of working through these issues, I wouldn't casually toss out the recommendation of adoption. That's a slap in the face to those who want a child of their own flesh and blood more than anything.
It's a "slap in the face" to suggest adoption to an infertile couple? Consider this: There are currently thousands of healthy children around the world who need loving parents. An infertile couple who chooses not to adopt (but instead invests the thousands of dollars usually required to come up with a way for them to have "one of their own") is a couple that says to these children, "I won't love you as my child unless you share my genetic material." Does that sound like any less a "slap in the face" to those children who need and deserve loving parents? Parents' need for children is dwarfed by an parentless child's need for parents. In my opinion, those infertile couples who would actively forego adopting a child so that they can have "one of their own" don't even deserve to have children.
I am an adoptive parent, by the way.
I don't make the rules. I just make fun of them.
I can see it now.
Clones of Michael Jackson.
"Folks just call him Buckethead." -- Les Claypool
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&u=/02 1227/170/2xrjx.html&e=1
If only they spent on dental care what they spent on cloning...yuck!
Who cares? Human clones have been around for centuries -- they're called identical twins. I have yet to hear a reasonable argument for why human cloning should be banned.
Blame Canada!
I guess that means the cult will be raising their army of clones now.
Sorry but it's more complicated that in humans. For example, certain regions of DNA are hypo/hypermethylated in a sex-related manner. But if you get both copies of the gene from your mother (or father in the case of a diploid sperm), this gene is improperly regulated. Multiply this by the number of sexually dimorphically methylated genes and that's why hydatiform moles form instead of clones (in humans). Admittedly, the male diploid version isn't technically a clone since it contains the maternal mitochondrial DNA. However, the clones that are being produced by microinjection aren't either.
As you said, certain strains of animals have been selected that can get around these problems, but AFAIK, no humans have this ability. If they did, it is quite likely that it would have been (socially) selected against.
Until this news is confirmed by a reputable and ubbiased third-party, I'd recommend some scepticism towards the Raelian claims. They are known for pulling attention-getting media stunts in order to further their cause up here in Québec. The cult itself puts forward some rather boring claims (that aliens visited the earth to sow the seeds of life, will return, bla bla bla). Both the rael.org and clonaid.com sites are down (though google archives are still available, here and here) and, even if this were for real, someone is propping them up and using the cult as a cover-- I can't confirm this, but the rumours here are of a wealthy billionaire whose child died of sudden infant death syndrome. More info on Rael can be found here. It's Christian web site-- another cult, IMHO-- but the information is pretty legit. They are notorious in Quebec for being sexual libertines, which makes me wonder why they feel the need to clone, since they have so much sex anyway.
iopha
Their headquarters is called UFO Land. That's just too much.
Democracy Now! - your daily, uncensored, corporate-free
Yep, it's a dupe...
oh.. that's the point...
We're on a mission from God.
Since both rael.org and clonaid.com have mysteriously gone offline since this morning... anyone able to snap a mirror before then?
Yes To Human Cloning: Eternal Life Thanks To Science
ISBN: 2883950105
Why would any one want to use cloning for humans? I've always foud sex more pleasuable..not that I wouldn't take a bit of ride by making a carbon copy of myself.
-------
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interpol or some such needs to stop this group of fanatics.
i don't know a hell of a lot about cloning, but from what little i know the child is destined to live a short, painful, terrifying life.
it's a crime that these monsters are allowed to continue their insane work.
Treatment, not tyranny. End the drug war and free our American POWs.
See my user info for links.
Being a resident of Montreal, I've encountered these folks numerous times as they try and sell their *ahem* books to pedestrians outside of downtown malls.
One day, just for the hell of it, I decided to try and speak with one of the "believers." I'm a molecular biologist, so I have an idea of what they are trying to do, but I approached it from a simplistic view and confronted the pair with some facts. Within a minute they were trying to chase me away, no doubt because I was scaring off the cattle.
It goes without saying that these folks--at least at the recruiter level--have absolutely no idea of what they are purporting to have done. The two I spoke two acted exactly like brain-washed zombies. Needless to say, the whole endeavour was an exercise in futility.
All I can say is congratulations to the proud parent(s?) and I wish your new daughter a healthy and happy life. This is truly a wonderful Christmas gift.
Yes, except Mary would have to be an XY female, which does happen and now i'm pulling numbers out of my ass but i believe it is around 1 in 10,000 and of that maybe 1 in 1,000 have reproductive capabilities. and then there would have to be some sort of non-disjunction during meiosis (who knows the odds, not me)which would result in a parthenogenesis which if carried to term (more unknown odds) could result in the birth of a child from a virgin. I, however, tend to believe she was lying about being a virgin.
The submitter writes: "There's supposed to be a press conference on Friday in Hollywood."
... at least they seem like happy people. One called in to the NPR program on the story this evening. Their principles of free love and such probably mesh quite nicely with the aspirations of their founder Rael. I liked the bit in his alien abduction story about being attended to by a half-dozen "voluptuous robots." Pity he didn't have a camera. Or maybe it didn't translate right.
Now, do we need to know anything else? Hollywood?
The Raelians are interesting
I'd rather the Raelian be obsessed with sex and clones than, say, guns and armageddon.
i wonder if they used linux for their super duper 50Ghz 200Gb ram with a GeForce 20MP super computer the aliens gave them??
Imagine a Beow...
What I don't understand is why didn't this woman clone herself some teeth! Yech!
2 12 27/i/1041007082.537870376.jpg
2 12 27/i/1041005420.3087523874.jpg
http://us.news1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/rids/200
http://us.news1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/rids/200
"Beware of he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart, he dreams himself your master."
Stupid cults.
Stupid issue.
Just plain stupid.
There is nothing for you people against clonging to argue about. You can't really stop it. You can't claim it is against nature since we are a part of nature.
You people for it just piss people off. Yes, it's a good thing to have, this technology to clone things, for medicinal purposes, but people never know where to draw the line. All it takes is one person to screw it up for everyone.
I can't say I really have a stance on this issue. I am all for the technology, but not for it's abuse. Society, however, is full of hypocrites and want a definitive yes or no to whether or not it is acceptable.
Just my $0.02
Seriously.
I do not support the death penalty for anything less than high treason (high treason is worse than murder in my book). That, and now cloning.
Something about cloning humans strikes me as just wrong, wrong, wrong.
Find the clone and the template (the mother in this case). Verify that they are genetically identical. Execute them.
Serve Gonk.
What makes the retarded wacko claims of jesus more believable than those of this frenchmen?
Hitler,
has only got one ball,
Goering
has two but very small
Himmler
has something simmler!
And poor old Goebbels
has no balls
at all!
Then only criminals will clone
You said it. He is a FRENCHMAN.
So, people with faith are worthless to those without a capacity for it. Noted.
Man, you make ALL atheists look bad.
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On the contrary, please correct me if I'm wrong, but you are referring to a problem with the YY genotype, not the XX that would occur from a parthenogenic diploid ovum, as well as an ordinary female zygote.
The question is, how often do human diploid ova ovulate and parthenogenerate simultaneously into a receptive womb? I'm sure it's better than one in a billion over a 30 year fertility span.
of the clone baby here
Take the cheese to sickbay, the doctor should see it as soon as possible - B'Elanna Torres, "Learning Curve"
Cloning sucks unless it is this one:
CLONE(2) Linux Programmer's Manual CLONE(2)
NAME
clone - create a child process
SYNOPSIS
#include <sched.h>
int clone(int (*fn)(void *), void *child_stack, int flags, void *arg);
_syscall2(int, clone, int, flags, void *, child_stack);
DESCRIPTION
clone creates a new process, just like fork(2). clone is
a library function layered on top of the underlying clone
system call, hereinafter referred to as sys_clone. A
description of sys_clone is given towards the end of this
page.
Truth hurts. Loser.
I assume you're an American? So what if you outlaw cloning in your own country--what if the Japanese/Chinese/Indians/whoever else decide it's just fine and dandy in their nations? All you do is deny your own people any possible benefits this technology may eventually bring.
And if you think cloning is controversial, just wait until we get to the point where we are able to do genetic manipulation, where we can design our children to be much smarter (genius-level IQ), physically stronger, more physically appealing, etc. Eugenics will be back, and with a vengance. That's when you'll see the fur really start to fly.
If the notion that humans are little more than advanced animals is allowed to lodge in the collective political mindshare, then abuses far worse than what the Nazis did will become commonplace.
Arguably from an animal rights standpoint such abuses are occurring constantly because of the reverse reasoning -- animals are beneath humans and therefore can be mistreated as we see fit.
It's easy to imagine a future society in which slaughter houses, for example, are shown to school children in the same context as Nazi death camps.
http://www.petersingerlinks.com/
A lot of people who are interested in cults have some heuristics for differentiating cults from "regular" religions.
Question "What's the difference between a cult. . . and my church, my service club, or, say, Alcoholics Anonymous?"
There are lots of differences, but the major difference is that of ultimate goal. Established religions and altruistic movements are focused outward--they attempt to better the lives of members and often, nonmembers. They make altruistic contributions. Cults serve their own purposes, which are the purposes of the cult leader; their energies are focused inward rather than outward (Singer, 1995).
The following website discusses cults, why people join them and stay in them, and the methods used by the leaders of cults to manipulate their members...
http://www.workingpsychology.com/cult.html
And in the year 2002, the first Replicant was born.
In the year 2003, the first Blade Runner was commissioned, to "retire" runaway Replicants.
(Sigh!)
if (!sig) { printf("Signature Unavailable\n"); }
I agree with your argument in general, that devaluing human life leads to all sorts of atrocities. I'm not sure that I agree with the more vaguely expressed opinion that human beings are better than (or more special than) animals.
Perhaps the correct course of action is to treat animals like human beings, rather than treat human beings like animals. What makes us so special that we cannot give equal rights to "lesser" animals? (Who are we to even be parceling out "rights" to begin with?) Now, this is mostly rhetorical. I have only questions and no answers. I'm no PETA member, and I value the benefits we have reaped from experimenting on rats, chimps, etc. I also don't think it's a good idea to start farming human clones for their organs. But, through all this, I'm not sure that animals are necessarily any less special than human beings.
There seems to be an overriding belief amongst most people (myself included most of the time) that human beings are inherently special. Our use of tools was once held as the deliniation between human and animal--until Jane Goodall discovered chimps using tools in the wild (there may have been someone before her, I don't know). We believe our ability to act rationally, or to communicate with complex language, or to feel compassion, or whatever, divides us from the animals but most (maybe all--it's too late at night to search for links) of these "special abilities" have been observed in animals.
I guess my point is that we might have things backwards. I'm fascinated by the things that human beings can do with their minds and bodies, but I'm equally fascinated by the understanding that my pet dog seems to have of me. I don't think we can just assume that human beings are inherently better than all other life forms.
Who knows? Maybe we're all just a bunch of quantum cruft anyway....
Ian
Fuck oath
I wish this lady would clone herself a new pair of teeth!
Does anyone else find it terribly ironic that this group of alien worshiping wack-jobs has chosen to nickname their first clone-apparent Eve? (In a decidedly obvious Christian reference) And doesn't it seem terribly convenient that the birth just happened to coincide with Christmas?
Oh, and please forgive the Alanis Morissette pun. I mean, she is Canadian after all; I just couldn't resist.
Rael: No DNA test for baby Evem s/
http://www.cnn.com/2003/HEALTH/01/03/clone.clai
Sect leader vows to guard identity of alleged human clone
SHERBROOKE, Quebec (CNN) --A company founded by members of a sect that believes mankind was created by extraterrestrials says what it calls the first human clone will not undergo testing to verify her genetic makeup.
The head of the Raelian movement, who calls himself "Rael," said Thursday that he has told Clonaid's leader not to perform DNA tests on the infant girl, nicknamed "Eve."
Appearing on CNN's "Crossfire," Rael said he had spoken with Clonaid CEO Brigitte Boisselier and told her, "If there is any risk that this baby is taken away from the family, it is better to lose your credibility; don't do the testing."
He added: "I think she agrees with me."
Boisselier, a bishop in the Raelians, has claimed that a second cloned baby is expected to be born in Europe before Sunday, but she declined to name the country.
Clonaid had previously said Eve was to undergo DNA testing this week. Such a test would prove or disprove the company's claim that Eve is a genetic duplicate of her mother. Clonaid did not return calls seeking comment late Thursday.
Rael said he made the decision after a "judge in Florida signed a paper saying that the baby Eve should be taken from the family, from her mother."
However, no Florida judge has made such a ruling. A hearing date has been set in Broward County Circuit Court for January 22 on a lawsuit filed by attorney Bernard Siegel, who wants a legal guardian appointed for the baby girl.
If the child's mother does not appear for the hearing, the court could conceivably order that the baby be taken away. The court could also delay any decision or rule that it doesn't have jurisdiction over the case.
Clonaid, the company founded by members of the Raelian movement, had announced that the baby was born outside the United States on December 26, and said she would be brought to the United States on Monday. However, it is not known if that ever took place.
The baby's whereabouts have not been revealed, nor has the birth been independently confirmed. Clonaid has said Eve was born to a 31-year-old American woman.
'A rogue organization'
Siegel said Rael's comments seemed to indicate the Raelians think "that they don't have to answer to the law, which says to me that this is a rogue organization."
"I want the whereabouts of this alleged child to be made public," he said.
Noting that there has been no ruling yet, Siegel said, "I guess [Rael is] a better space alien than he is a lawyer. If my lawsuit has in fact called their bluff, then so be it."
Rael, former French journalist Claude Vorilhon, contends human life resulted from extraterrestrial genetic engineering and argues that cloning is the key to eternal life.
Will the public get a chance to see the baby soon?
"I don't think so," Rael said in the "Crossfire" interview.
At another point, he was asked if his group had simply gotten away with a great publicity stunt. Rael, speaking from Canada via satellite, said his earpiece was having technical difficulties.
"I am so sorry, but the sound is so bad. I cannot hear anything," he said.
He also said his Raelian movement is "completely separate" from Clonaid.
You say things that offend me and I can deal with it. Can you?
Of course, there are children out there who deserve adoption - regardless of whether the adoptive parents are fertile or not.
Yes, those children deserve adoption, and you've said to them, "You don't deserve my love because you don't share my genetic material."
But as the proud father of happy, healthy twins that are the result of a successful in-vitro fertilization, I can only say &*%! you very much.
I do not intend to slander your beautiful and innocent children or your ability to parent them. My criticism lies elsewhere:
There are thousands of helpless children around the world who need loving parents. When you were faced with infertility, you told them that they weren't worthy of a parent like you because they did not share your genetic material. I'm not offended by your "&*%! you very much" which you gave me; instead, I am saddened. The ones who truly deserve to be offended are the children that you passed up so you could have "one of your own." I think you have chosen the most self-indulgent path to parenthood that you could afford.
I understand your angry reaction. I'm telling you that you've done an unethical thing, and people tend to have hurt feelings when they are told that. The feelings of adults are usually the first casuality when I start discussing the welfare of children.
I don't make the rules. I just make fun of them.
http://www.cnn.com/2003/HEALTH/01/03/clone.claims/ index.html
I find it 'interesting' that Rael - a former French journalist named Claude Vorilhon, got started in '73 and a Star Trek episode called the Wink of an Eye came out in '68 ?
This guy may be creative - but at least he could pick a name that wasn't ripped out of a Star Trek rerun (probably on TV the night he was 'visited' while napping after having sipped Raelian Tea).