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Top 10 Unsolved Space Mysteries

Joe Jordan writes "Space.com is advertising the Top 10 Space Mysteries for 2003, and perhaps for all time, given the current rate of discovery." Some of them are obvious, like the origin of life, and the possibility of alien life forms, but the list is still a good compilation of space's greatest questions.

311 comments

  1. Is it on the list? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

    The *Terrible* *Secret* *of* *Space*!!!

    (First post? Perhaps... Maybe...)

    1. Re:Is it on the list? by Andy_R · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Saturn, Uranus and Neptune, somehow, without internal nuclear fusion processes, like stars -- still manage to radiate more energy out into space than they receive directly from the Sun.

      It's called 'cooling down', anything that you put in a relatively cold place, such as (for example) 'space', will do it.

      --
      A pizza of radius z and thickness a has a volume of pi z z a
    2. Re:Is it on the list? by gumbysworld · · Score: 0

      Did you even bother to read the paper???read the paper, if you know physics it most of it makes sense.

      it puts out more energy then it receives or has.

      it only get x ammount and should only have x ammount to release but it releases more.

      The proved it on good morning america. buy using hyperdimensional physics they made 4.5 billion year of time elaspe in a few hrs.

      The fundamental "violations" of current physics exhibited by so-called "free energy" machines -- from the explicitly-rotating "N-machine" to the initially frustrating time-variable aspects of "electro-chemical cold fusion"-- are now elegantly explained by appropriate application of Maxwell's original ideas.

      Even more extraordinary: the recent startling demonstration, broadcast nationwide on ABC's "Good Morning America" last year, of a "physically impossible" major reduction -- in a few minutes! -- of long-lived radioactive Uranium isotopes. Normally, such processes require billions of years to accomplish. This too is now elegantly explained by the Hyperdimensional Model-- As -- an "induced hyperspatial stress," created by the machine ... the same stress that initially (in the Model) induces "unstable isotopes" in the first place. By technologically enhancing such vacuum stress within these nuclei, via a retuning of Maxwell's "scalar potentials," the normal radioactive breakdown process is accelerated -- literally billions of times ...

      [free your mind and the rest will follow.]

    3. Re:Is it on the list? by Rubbersoul · · Score: 1

      The proved it on good morning america.

      You saw it on good morning america it must be true :)

      (it is a joke people layoff)

      --
      man .sig
      No manual entry for .sig.
    4. Re:Is it on the list? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Alright, tell me how to make billions of years of time elapse in just a few hours. I'll test it with a houseplant.

    5. Re:Is it on the list? by spike+hay · · Score: 2

      Saturn, Uranus and Neptune, somehow, without internal nuclear fusion processes, like stars -- still manage to radiate more energy out into space than they receive directly from the Sun.

      It's called 'cooling down', anything that you put in a relatively cold place, such as (for example) 'space', will do


      Not quite. Any dust or gas that formed jupiter would have had to have had thermal equilibrium with the rest of space. I read once what caused the excess heat, but I forgot.

      --
      If you don't understand any of my sayings, come to me in private and I shall take you in my German mouth.
  2. Dark Enegery has nothing on by echorun · · Score: 0, Troll

    my aunts death grip on my arm as she tells me stories about work after a Christmas meal.

    --
    The human condition is to not accept the human condition.
  3. Dark Energy by Gyan · · Score: 0, Funny

    "Nobody knows what the heck it is, but it is officially repulsive. And man is it powerful! More powerful than gravity, even."

    Don't we call it Microsoft ?

    1. Re:Dark Energy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Insightful

      Trying to get some cheap karma by bashing Microsoft, are you?

    2. Re:Dark Energy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      sad thing is I wouldn't be suprised if he gets modded to +5 Funny or Insightful

    3. Re:Dark Energy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Troll

      "If you disagree, don't moderate, reply."

      All right then.

      You're an idiot, you're not at all funny or original, and it's sad that some moderator as stupid as you will soon come along and give your post a "Funny" rating.

    4. Re:Dark Energy by Gyan · · Score: 0

      "ou're an idiot, you're not at all funny or original, and it's sad that some moderator as stupid as you will soon come along and give your post a "Funny" rating."

      And since you're NOT an idiot, you post with conviction under a login, don't you ?

    5. Re:Dark Energy by Tony-A · · Score: 2

      That "one degree of separation" keeps growing and growing and growing and ...

    6. Re:Dark Energy by SomeoneGotMyNick · · Score: 3, Funny

      It's actually a product of the chili dinner I had last night. Talk about repulsive. Bodies in the vicinity move away at a very rapid rate due to its effects.

    7. Re:Dark Energy by matt4077 · · Score: 1

      actually, gravity is the weakest force.

    8. Re:Dark Energy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      you fell for troll bait!

    9. Re:Dark Energy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      again you fell. did you also cry to your mommy when your lolly was stolen? or do you just yell from the basement?

    10. Re: Dark Energy by Black+Parrot · · Score: 2


      You know, there's nothing in your whole religious tirade that says anything about acceleration, which is what you purport to be explaining.

      And you wonder why people think biblical literalists are idiots.

      --
      Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
    11. Re:Dark Energy by mstyne · · Score: 1

      Hi, I'm logged in.

      And yes, you are an idiot.

      HTH

      --
      mstyne: real name, no gimmicks
    12. Re:Dark Energy by Walt+Dismal · · Score: 1

      As the site says: "The repulsive force dominates the universe, comprising 65 percent of its makeup." Yup, sounds like Microsoft.

  4. I like the last one by lingqi · · Score: 3, Funny

    "Can we survive 2003?"

    I wonder how long it will take to find that one out? I bet a dollar to a donut that we know how that works out before we find out what's going on in the middle of the galaxy, though. any takers?

    --

    My life in the land of the rising sun.

    1. Re:I like the last one by hplasm · · Score: 1
      "Can we survive 2003?" I wonder how long it will take to find that one out?

      I would say about 370 days should see the answer to this one...

      --
      ...and he grinned, like a fox eating shit out of a wire brush.
    2. Re:I like the last one by Forge · · Score: 2, Funny

      I can solve them all.

      1. Dark Energy. It's the stuff that makes all the recent World Heavyweight champions as powerful as they are.

      2. Water on Mars. Yes, it's there but the stuff in France tastes better.

      3. The Murky, Mediocre Middle of the Milky Way. Come on. We have second grade everything. Why not the same for Black hole?

      4. The Origin of Life. One word. Creation.

      5. Lunar Secrets. If we bring down earth rocks from the moon they might have dormant bacteria to which we no longer have a defense. Bad idea.

      6. Are we alone? No. I'm an optimist and having failed to find intelligent life on Earth I am positive SETI will be successful eventually.

      7. The Sun. It's bright, it's big, it's hot. What's to understand?

      8. Age of the Universe. Anybody want to take this bet? When the best Telescope available is significantly (2x to 10x) better than the best currently available objects will be found so far a away that they set the minimum age of the universe at 30 billion years or more.

      9. Missing planets. They drifted by and got caught in the gravity well.

      10. Can we Survive 2003. Of course. Michael Clark Douglas and Bruce Willis can rescue us from anything.

      --
      --= Isn't it surprising how badly I spell ?
    3. Re:I like the last one by Santos+L.+Halper · · Score: 1

      You never know. It might only take us a week before we realize we are not going to survive 2003.

      --

      "Ask not for whom the bone bones. It bones for thee." --Bender
  5. And they don't even know... by insomaniac · · Score: 2, Funny

    the answer to all of it is 42

    --
    The way to corrupt a youth is to teach him to hold in higher value them who think alike than those who think differently
    1. Re:And they don't even know... by badansible · · Score: 1

      A pitty that it requires 300.000 years of supercomputer time to get it...

    2. Re:And they don't even know... by spongman · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I thought it was 7.5 million years?

    3. Re:And they don't even know... by Walrus99 · · Score: 1

      Yes, but what is the question?

    4. Re:And they don't even know... by insomaniac · · Score: 1

      Don't know, we'll be destroyed 5 minutes before we know...

      --
      The way to corrupt a youth is to teach him to hold in higher value them who think alike than those who think differently
    5. Re:And they don't even know... by sconeu · · Score: 3, Informative

      What do you get when you multiply six by nine?

      (Thereby proving that hyperintelligent pandimensional beings also known as white mice use base 13).

      --
      General Relativity: Space-time tells matter where to go; Matter tells space-time what shape to be.
  6. 11th unanswered Question by beta21 · · Score: 2, Funny

    Why are explosions in space circular and not spherical?

    and just for fun why do space captains always take off their shirts?

    1. Re:11th unanswered Question by jsse · · Score: 2, Informative

      Why are explosions in space circular and not spherical?

      The circular shape you've seen is the hot gas emitted after a massive explosion. Normally the explosion of a star was spherically symmetric. Within the explosion core, higher density part will force the lower density part(gases) escape in a planar direction, provided that the force is uniform in all direction, which is commonly seen in massive explosion like supernova.

    2. Re:11th unanswered Question by Yokaze · · Score: 5, Informative

      Let's ignore that the parent was surely refering to the absurdity of SciFi in space in general.

      Assuming that the force is uniform in all directions, there is no reason that the lower density material escapes in planar direction (what tells the material in which plane it has to escape, so to speak).

      My totally uneducated guess is the following:
      Stars rotate around one axis. This angular momentum has to be preserved. If memory serves right a supernova occurs, when the equlibrium of gravitational contraction force and the thermonuclar repulsion force collapses, until a certain pressure is reached which leads to a final explosive fusion process. Now think of figure skating, rotating and a contracting diameter.
      The outmost material will be hurled back into space, the rest contributes to a white dwarf, neutron star, black hole, or whatever.
      But the critical part (for our question at hand) is that the star in it latest moments is not spherical, but eliptical. The material in the rotational plane has a higher momentum, so it will be more likely hurled back into space.

      As I said, this is a fairly uneducated guess. The question is, does the centrifugal force matter anything, considering strength the gravitational force and the thermonuclear explosion?

      --
      "Between strong and weak, between rich and poor [...], it is freedom which oppresses and the law which sets free"
    3. Re:11th unanswered Question by insanecarbonbasedlif · · Score: 2

      As I said, this is a fairly uneducated guess. The question is, does the centrifugal force matter anything, considering strength the gravitational force and the thermonuclear explosion?

      Trick question... the answer is false, because centrifugal force doesn't exist. (talk to my High School physics teacher about that one...) Maybe the centripetal force might affect things...

      --
      Just because I doubt myself does not mean I find your position compelling.
    4. Re:11th unanswered Question by Yokaze · · Score: 3, Informative

      > High School physics teacher

      Centrifugal force does "exist". It is a byproduct of being situated in an accelerating system, where Newtons phyics doesn't apply. Prime requisit of Newtons law. You have to be in a inertial reference frame. Well, the laws of physics still apply, you just have to observe it from a stationary system and then transpose it into the accelerated system.

      Calculating in an accelerated system gives you all the non-existant forces or pseudo-forces like centrifugal-force and Coriolis-force.

      OTOH, those forces do not exists as they are only a byproduct of calculating in a rotating frame and not a real force which are the result of exchanging particles like photons, gravitons and the like.

      Speaking of centrifugal force is inaccurate at worst. So, for educational reasons, one should speak of centrifual effect, or Coriolis effect.

      --
      "Between strong and weak, between rich and poor [...], it is freedom which oppresses and the law which sets free"
    5. Re:11th unanswered Question by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Yet some other uneducated guesses .... There is nothing that dictates that explosions in space must be spherical. Newton's Third Law only dictates that the explosions be symmetrical, i.e., for every reaction there is an equal and opposite reaction. If a star explodes at one point with sufficient force, then one can expect to see a reaction at the spherically opposite (roughly) point. The Hourglass Planetary Nebula is a great visual example of this. So is the HST view of Supernova 1987a

      Then, throw in the concepts of Conservation of Angular Momentum and Gravity. The first tends to place explosive debris in the rotational plane of the exploding source, and the second tends to reinforce that by attracting additional matter.

      This leads to the *density thing*. Viewing a (relatively) fairly dense region of space, say after a stellar explosion, the greatest density of the ejecta will end up in the rotational plane, making the explosion look circular. Just a guess though.

    6. Re:11th unanswered Question by Sylver+Dragon · · Score: 2

      Why are explosions in space circular and not spherical?

      Because hollywood special effects departments don't think spherical explosions are impressive enough. They want more of a visual effect.
      As for real explosions in space, I don't see why they wouldn't be mostly spherical in nature, perhaps elliptical. If a non-rotating body blew up in space I would expect to see a sphere. Might get a bit deformed due to structural weaknesses in an object, some parts would blow out faster, which, if shaped right might give the whole ring thingy. For example, the Death Star(the first one) might have split apart along the trench, which may have acted as a shape charge causing the ring effect. Though if you consider a non-enclosed explosive going off in a weightless enviroment, I can't see anything that would cause a shape like that. There's nothing compressing the expanding gas. It should expand uniformally.
      Rotating bodies would probably get a flatened sphere, as the rotational interia might cause the matter farthest from the axis of rotation to be ejected slightly faster.

      and just for fun why do space captains always take off their shirts?

      Because, the true sign of how good a captian is, is the number of hot alien space babes he has slept with. And the best way to attract one of those is for the captain to take off his shirt.

      --
      Necessity is the mother of invention.
      Laziness is the father.
  7. top ten space mysteries by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    10. Why is it so expensive?
    9. What was SciFi channel thinking when they cancelled it?
    8. What's the easiest way to rationalize putting weapons up there?
    7. When will people stop trying to take each others'?
    6. Why do I take up so much of it?
    5. Why are *you* taking up so much of it?
    4. Will adding a loft give me more?
    3. Is an illegal apartment a good way to make money off the excess?
    2. Is there a downside to replacing all of it with asphalt?

    and the #1 mystery about space:

    1. Where the hell do I put all this porn??

    1. Re:top ten space mysteries by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      and the #1 mystery about space:
      1. Where the hell do I put all this porn??


      I keep it in a folder on the hard drive named "Redhat Linux". It's a safe place becuase my parents would never, ever think to look in there

      I'm not kidding

  8. More like top 10 things to sell space magazines by rufusdufus · · Score: 4, Interesting

    This list reads more like pop-movie script devices than astronomy.
    Number 10 is "will be survive 2003" or will we be destroyed by an asteroid?
    Also mentioned is SETI which is interesting to laymen, but not really at the forefront of most astronomers minds.
    The whole of the list is just fuzzy headed gobbledygook a high school student turned in for a book report. "The Enigmatic Sun" indeed.

  9. But.. by acehole · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    Where are my car keys??!
    The universe hides them.

    --
    Be you Admins? nay, we are but lusers!
  10. Answers: by 91degrees · · Score: 5, Funny

    1. Dark Energy It's energy. And its dark. Think Star Trek glowy thing but looking at negatives.
    2. Water on Mars. Nope. Only chocolate, toffee, and some sort fo nougatish stuff.
    3. The Murky, Mediocre Middle of the Milky Way - A more important question - What is it with chocolate and space?
    4. The Origin of Life - Well, when a man and a woman love each other very much....
    5. Lunar Secrets - As any fan of classic Trolls knows, the moon is a ridiculous liberal myth. It doesn't exist. That's the secret.
    6. Are We Alone? - I was talking about this to Glarg - my venusian friend. He said that he felt that life on other planets was impossible. I'm not so sure
    7. The Enigmatic Sun - Enigmatic? the things a bloomin exhibitionist!
    8. Age of the Universe - I have the universes Birth Certificate right here. I think its rude to ask a univeses age though.
    9. Missing planet - Obviously, the planets are wrong, not the theory. Planets are stupid after all. They just go round and round in circles. Whatr do they know? Anyway, to solve this problem, we plan to destroy Uranus and Neptune.
    10. Can We Survive 2003? - I have a theory on this. The ramifications will take a while to work out. Can I tell you in 369 days time?

    1. Re:Answers: by LX.onesizebigger · · Score: 3, Funny
      10. Can We Survive 2003? - I have a theory on this. The ramifications will take a while to work out. Can I tell you in 369 days time?

      I don't know, can you? You tell me.

      --
      I for one welcome our new SCOviet Russian overlords to whom all our base are belong.
    2. Re:Answers: by jez9999 · · Score: 1

      10. Can We Survive 2003? - I have a theory on this. The ramifications will take a while to work out. Can I tell you in 369 days time?

      By then, you'll be too late. I will be able to tell everyone in 365 days' time.

    3. Re:Answers: by lennart78 · · Score: 5, Funny

      4. The Origin of Life - Well, when a man and a woman love each other very much....

      Or, according to Al Bundy: A sixpack of beer and 2 horny teenagers...

    4. Re:Answers: by 91degrees · · Score: 2, Funny

      Or, according to Al Bundy: A sixpack of beer and 2 horny teenagers...

      I am trying to promote responsible astrophysics here.

    5. Re:Answers: by ch-chuck · · Score: 1, Funny

      What is it with chocolate and space?

      I'm still trying to figure out the marketing connection between Angels, clouds and toilet paper.

      --
      try { do() || do_not(); } catch (JediException err) { yoda(err); }
  11. The possibility of alien life forms.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

    It's obvious! Didn't those scientists watch X-Files?

    --
    Government denies knowledge

    1. Re:The possibility of alien life forms.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In X-files it is revealed that the only alien is the love-baby that Mulder and Krycek conceived together during one night of hot gay ass sex.

  12. Survive 2003 by mansoft · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Be sure that, everything remaining the same, it is more likely that we will kill ourselves making war, rather than being smashed by an asteroid.

    --

    Engage!

  13. The origins of life indeed by Kiwi · · Score: 5, Insightful
    It looks like the creationists (or, at least, trolls pretending to be creationists) haven't come out of the woodwork yet. That in mind, some thoughts of my own on the "origin of life" bit of bait which this article has.

    I do not think a scientist is rejecting God when they try to look at something like the origin of life. I think a scientist is not asking who did it as much as they are asking how it was done. The agent is not relevent to the scientist; only the method matters.

    I think, personally, that God is plain simply too elegant to make the creation of life something which would require the temporary changing of the laws of physics to accomplish. God created the laws of nature also; why not make them ones which make life possible (the gravitation constant, for example, has to be very finely tuned to make life possible).

    My God is a God of surprises which does not put answers to all of life's problems in simple, small packages. To me creationism is a form of denial; no worse than the denial of a chronic alcholic who says they don't really have a drinking problem.

    Thinking about the immensity of the universe gives me a profound sense of wonder; I really enjoyed reading this list.

    - Sam

    --

    The secret to enjoying Slashdot is to realize that it should not be taken too seriously.

    1. Re:The origins of life indeed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah and Santa brings gifts every Christmas and cleverly disguises them to look like something your parents bought and wrapped - it's all part of the plan.

      Idiot.

    2. Re:The origins of life indeed by JanusFury · · Score: 2, Insightful
      I think, personally, that God is plain simply too elegant to make the creation of life something which would require the temporary changing of the laws of physics to accomplish. God created the laws of nature also; why not make them ones which make life possible (the gravitation constant, for example, has to be very finely tuned to make life possible).
      My God is a God of surprises which does not put answers to all of life's problems in simple, small packages. To me creationism is a form of denial; no worse than the denial of a chronic alcholic who says they don't really have a drinking problem.
      So you're saying that you believe God didn't create the universe, and instead created a set of rules that caused it to be created? Isn't that the same as creating it, albeit indirectly? You're not making any sense, sir.

      Personally I'm a staunch believer in God creating the universe - how is not an issue I claim to have resolved, and I'm just as interested as you are to hear about new theories, if not more interested. But I'm sure as hell not going to listen to someone claim that a theory is the only plausible explanation, simply because they refuse to accept the possibility of there being a God. It's just as hard to prove that the universe came into existence by some random explosion as it is to prove that God exists... because both crowds can come up with lots of evidence but crowd A never believes crowd B. What good is proof if nobody thinks it's real?
      --
      using namespace slashdot;
      troll::post();
    3. Re:The origins of life indeed by oliverthered · · Score: 2, Insightful

      How, in the begining there was the word.

      There is one thing that is cirtain, we will never know how the universe was created (ie. the events that lead upto the creation of the universe).

      To many that is GOD.
      If you a Numeroligist, Jew, Christian &co then the act of creation was a word, GOD uttered the word to create the universe. (I don't know about other religions sory!)

      Me, I think of GOD as nothing more than the act of creation, GOD is not a someone, or a something, GOD doesn't influence me, send me to heven or hell, GOD is not an entity. To me GOD is eveything and nothing, I am just made of stardust.

      --
      thank God the internet isn't a human right.
    4. Re:The origins of life indeed by spongman · · Score: 2, Interesting
      I'll believe in the "God" thing you're talking about on one condition: the only attribute that "God" has is that it is the thing that's responsible for the creation of the universe.

      I see no proof for any of the other things that are commonly attributed to "him".

    5. Re:The origins of life indeed by oliverthered · · Score: 1

      If God is not real then why are you hiding from ? as an Anonymous Coward.

      If God is not real there is not heaven, there is no hell, when you die there is nothing, so why does it matter?, why are you a coward?, what are you hiding from? maybe the doubts in you mind?

      --
      thank God the internet isn't a human right.
    6. Re:The origins of life indeed by oliverthered · · Score: 1

      God is 3, and I can prove it. (and you wandered where the holy trinity fitted into things).

      It's all a matter of state.

      if everything exists in 1 state then it might as well not exist,
      ie. there is nothing for comparrison, you'd have the thought processes of a stone.

      if there were two states, but neither could see the other then, well, they might as well not exist. (see above).

      There must be 3 states, the 3rd state being the observation, or difference between the 1st and 2nd
      states.

      God is the trinity.

      Now all you need to do is find out how to create the 3rd state!

      --
      thank God the internet isn't a human right.
    7. Re:The origins of life indeed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      what about the 4th state: the having been incarcerated in a high-security mental institution?

    8. Re:The origins of life indeed by Rubbersoul · · Score: 1

      Yes because he is posting AC to hide from god ... That is funny to me :)

      --
      man .sig
      No manual entry for .sig.
    9. Re:The origins of life indeed by oliverthered · · Score: 1

      I escaped. I'm not supprised you posting as a coward.

      --
      thank God the internet isn't a human right.
    10. Re:The origins of life indeed by oliverthered · · Score: 1

      No, becasue he's hiding. Why does he have a point in life.
      Come on I wan't him to top himself, it'd be funny. more prozak please.

      --
      thank God the internet isn't a human right.
    11. Re:The origins of life indeed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You say "nihilism" like some people say "sarcasm" - as if the mere name would somehow make the idea invalid. The groupthink says: "Everybody knows that nihilism/sarcasm/cynicism is bad and wrong and should not be acknowledged. Let's hide our heads in the sand and blame everyone else for our own choices."

    12. Re:The origins of life indeed by oliverthered · · Score: 1

      Yeh, kill em all. More prozak please.

      --
      thank God the internet isn't a human right.
    13. Re:The origins of life indeed by oliverthered · · Score: 1

      hey, this is the only non troll I've posted on the thread. Come on mods do your worst I have kama to burn!!!!

      --
      thank God the internet isn't a human right.
    14. Re:The origins of life indeed by oliverthered · · Score: 1

      It's called 'somones' wager, I can't remember who.
      Anyhow,
      If there is a heaven and hell and I'm good, then I'll goto heaven.

      If there isn't then it doesn't matter, so just incase I'll be good.

      When I'm board I don't kill my self, I just troll on /. for a while.

      --
      thank God the internet isn't a human right.
    15. Re:The origins of life indeed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      It's Pascal's wager and it only works if there is one religion.

      If there are many and they have different ideas of what contributes as good behaviour, you're screwed. Drank some wine? Allah won't like you and will make you dance barefoot on hot metal plates. Haven't taken your communion? Uh-oh... the forgiving Christian God will send you downstairs for a nice eternal swim in fire and brimstone for that. Drinking moderate amounts of wine would have been OK, though.

      Got the point?

    16. Re:The origins of life indeed by JohnFluxx · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I don't get even that need for god.

      Where did the universe come from? God.
      Where did God come from? er, he just always existed.
      So why couldn't the universe have just always existed? er..

    17. Re:The origins of life indeed by Juzam(KTF) · · Score: 0

      I fail to see how this is a troll. He was just giving his own opinion on the creation of the universe. I am assuming that people just saw "GOD" a bunch of times and didn't actually read it.

    18. Re:The origins of life indeed by Enzondio · · Score: 2

      That's your "proof"?

    19. Re:The origins of life indeed by Enzondio · · Score: 2

      Pascal's Wager, I believe.

      I tried for several minutes to think of a joke relating to the programming language but I couldn't so screw it.

    20. Re:The origins of life indeed by oliverthered · · Score: 1

      Yep, you just have some kind of problem getting your head around it.
      My proof only requires that you think and understand. Scientific proofs are useless in philosophy since no thought is required.

      Can you falsify my proof[argument]?

      --
      thank God the internet isn't a human right.
    21. Re:The origins of life indeed by oliverthered · · Score: 1

      If your going to make a statements about the begining and the end, make sure you get all you declarations in first.

      --
      thank God the internet isn't a human right.
    22. Re:The origins of life indeed by Enzondio · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Well, let's start by your lack of a defintion of what exactly a state is. All I can gather from your post is that they apparently have the capacity to "see" each other (whatever that means), but only if a third "observation" state is added to the mix.

      Also, (and this is frightenly common) you fail to define what God is. The only defintion given is "the trinity" which is a tad lacking in terms of details or any actual information at all. You can call something "sally" if you want but it won't mean anything.

      I wouldn't call this falsifying your proof because I wouldn't call what you posted a proof, or even an argument for that matter. You presuppose that your assertion is correct then create ambiguous language to support it. And the you call that proof.

      I think you would benefit from taking some philosophy courses.

    23. Re:The origins of life indeed by gad_zuki! · · Score: 2

      >My God is a God of surprises which does not put answers to all of life's problems in simple, small packages.

      Why are the believers always publicly rationalizing their religious beliefs? "My god is this" or "my god is that" doesn't build credibility, it just shows a someone unwilling to let go of a parasitic belief.

    24. Re:The origins of life indeed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If God created man, who created God?

    25. Re:The origins of life indeed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Because that's what religion is. It's a bunch of people who wander about, verbalizing some inane hypothesis derived not from any source or logic, but rather from a lack of understanding of what surrounds them. Put enough such people together, and they eventually come to one or a handful of unified hypotheses. In effect, they've lied to themselves and each other, and it becomes convenient to build believability by inter-twining their lies with each other.

      The same effect can be seen in children, as they try to justify things to each other - why a bird can fly when it's so much bigger than a butterfly, or why fish don't need to breath air.

    26. Re:The origins of life indeed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Reply to this thread and get modded down instantly!!!

    27. Re:The origins of life indeed by oliverthered · · Score: 1

      Umm... see you don't understand.

      What is a state, Webster's says
      ' mode or condition of being b (1) : condition of mind or temperament (2) : a condition of abnormal tension or excitement'

      So a state is a state.... hard definition that one.

      What is seeing lets go to Webster's again shall we
      : to come to know : DISCOVER
      to be aware of : RECOGNIZE
      EXAMINE, WATCH
      to perceive the meaning or importance of : UNDERSTAND

      Oh look to see is to see, wow how amazing....

      God is the existence of all three states, your looking for an it definition of God and funny enough there wasn't one.

      Now that I've been to the dictionary for you does the proof make any more sense.

      the 1st state is the existence of something(this could be anything or nothing)
      the 2nd state is the existence of something else
      the third state is the difference between the 1st state and the 2nd state.

      I don't mean that 3rd = 2nd-1st I mean that 3rd = -

      It was a proof, you didn't know what the words meant, and you were looking for something that wasn't there. The proof was fine, your misconceptions weren't.

      --
      thank God the internet isn't a human right.
    28. Re:The origins of life indeed by oliverthered · · Score: 1

      No, you don't understand.
      Where did the universe come from? God

      Where did God come from? the creation of the universe.

      God is not an it.

      --
      thank God the internet isn't a human right.
    29. Re:The origins of life indeed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's no fun, can't I find a spelling troll or one of those capitilist peeps(I think they've all been scared off).

      There there spelling troll there you go over there, there's a little spelling troll comming to get me.

    30. Re:The origins of life indeed by ideonode · · Score: 1

      Are you a relative of this bloke? ;)

      I've tried really hard, but I can't make sense of your post. You say you can prove God=3, but haven't done anything of the sort. You seem to be veering towards some sort of Zen buddist thought experiment viz. God is the relation or interaction between two 'objects', hence a third thing, the observation of the two.

      If I see a stone, there are two objects, and an observation. Am I God?

      Please, I would like to know more. Really. (Actually, not really, but if you are genuinely enlightened and not a troll, then please do explain further....)

    31. Re:The origins of life indeed by oliverthered · · Score: 1

      No, God isn't an I or and it. God is.
      If you'd have put
      'I see a stone there is God'
      instead of
      'I see a stone, am I God'
      you'd have been on a better footing.

      --
      thank God the internet isn't a human right.
    32. Re:The origins of life indeed by PD · · Score: 1

      This is not intended as a flame, but it entirely my own opinion.

      You've tried to provide a common ground for science and religion, and that's commendable. A lot of disagreements can be solved with the technique, and I hope you don't stop doing it.

      But I don't think it applies here. Science and religion are diametrically opposed, and there's no way to reconcile them. Elegance seems to be important to you, as it is to me. New ideas are constantly being introduced, and they conflict with religion in many ways. The only solutions we really have is either for religion to capitulate (this can take a long time - see Galileo in your encyclopedia) or for adherents to religion to deny a fact. That's not really an elegant thing at all.

      I think that more important than elegance is truthfulness. I think it is truthful to say that religion and science have many disagreements, and no amount of bridge building is going to change the fact that those disagreements will only increase in the future. The best hope for the future is for that truth to be recognized by everyone, and a live and let live attitude be adopted.

    33. Re:The origins of life indeed by oliverthered · · Score: 1

      nb all I am proving is you can't have any less than three and still exist.

      And that God is existance.

      I think therefore I am, ok.
      I am therefore something exists, well there must be at least three things.

      --
      thank God the internet isn't a human right.
    34. Re:The origins of life indeed by Enzondio · · Score: 2

      What I meant by definition was more a question of what these words mean in context so a dictionary definition is insufficient.

      God is the existence of all three states, your looking for an it definition of God and funny enough there wasn't one.

      I don't have any idea what that means. I'm looking for an "it" definition?

      Anyway, it seems clear that you are using the goal of your argument (god is the trinity) to provide a definition of your terms. Of course your argument appears logically consistent but it means nothing.

      It was a proof, you didn't know what the words meant, and you were looking for something that wasn't there. The proof was fine, your misconceptions weren't.

      Perhaps what I was looking for was some actual meaning which still appears to be absent.

    35. Re:The origins of life indeed by ideonode · · Score: 1

      So for an observation there must be three things:
      1 - the thing being observed
      2 - the observer
      3 - the observation

      OK. I'll buy that, leaving aside such thorny issues as self-introspection and the quantum-physical notion that there is no such thing as observation, only participation (Heisenbergian Uncertainty).

      God is existance (sic). WTF? Where does God come into what is a simple epistemological statement? It's a logical non-sequitur. You've pulled yourself up by the bootstraps.

      Anyway, I shall have to cease this, erm, wonderful numerico-theological debate as it is veering way, way off-topic. No doubt, I shall be leaving the last word to you.

    36. Re:The origins of life indeed by oliverthered · · Score: 1

      Unfortunately I was doing the opposite, using the fact that you cannot have existence without three 'things'.
      That existence (and therefore three things) is God, or the trinity.

      Numerology plays a large part in the old testament, and that it is generally takes and a philosophy and not a fact, I was showing a was to define the philosophy of the holy trinity.
      You can extrapolate that definition to include things like
      God is all around us, God is in the air that I breath and in the palm of my hand,
      God is the beginning and the end, everything and nothing..............

      I was debunking a material God as promoted by modern teaching.

      --
      thank God the internet isn't a human right.
    37. Re:The origins of life indeed by oliverthered · · Score: 1

      Ok, the last word, I've nothing better to do today!

      observation/participation kinda 6 and 2 threes, which is why I use 'see' in the original argument, it's a lot more fluffy and covers both observation/participation.

      If there is 'a' God then God must be existance.

      What was the original stoty anyhows.

      --
      thank God the internet isn't a human right.
    38. Re:The origins of life indeed by oliverthered · · Score: 1

      Ok, I've found the original story,

      My proof for the Big Bang (aka God or whatever) is that there must be three things, and you cannot find out what happened before the big bang etc....
      one mistery solved, it was 'God' we can all sleep in peace.

      --
      thank God the internet isn't a human right.
    39. Re:The origins of life indeed by Yunzil · · Score: 2

      It's just as hard to prove that the universe came into existence by some random explosion as it is to prove that God exists... because both crowds can come up with lots of evidence but crowd A never believes crowd B.

      Except that crowd A (the Big Bang people) have scientific, objective evidence, and crowd B (the God exists people) only have subjective, untestable evidence.

      But why do you think they are mutually exclusive? There's no reason you can't accept the Big Bang *and* believe God exists at the same time. Many scientists do.

    40. Re:The origins of life indeed by susano_otter · · Score: 3, Insightful
      "My car is a car of good mileage, satisfying agility, and convenient compactness."

      What am I doing? Rationalizing a parasitic belief, or simply expressing things I believe to be true? It seems clear to me that statements of this form are not automatically self-invalidating.

      Also, it seems petty to whine about public expressions of personal belief in a thread about that very topic. Might as well ask why the pro-carrot people insist on pointing out the advantages of carrots every time a discussion of vegetables comes up. Why? Because it's topical.

      --

      Any sufficiently well-organized community is indistinguishable from Government.

    41. Re:The origins of life indeed by JohnFluxx · · Score: 2

      I still don't get. God created the universe, and that creation made God?
      Well what started that off then?

    42. Re:The origins of life indeed by oliverthered · · Score: 1

      'Well what started that off then?'
      that is god.

      --
      thank God the internet isn't a human right.
    43. Re:The origins of life indeed by JohnFluxx · · Score: 2

      god created god?

    44. Re:The origins of life indeed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      god is creation.

    45. Re:The origins of life indeed by Chacham · · Score: 1

      Except that crowd A (the Big Bang people) have scientific, objective evidence,

      And their "evidence" is based on baseless theories that make sense only with the use of other theories. In the end, it is a vicious cycle, that makes sense only to itself.

      and crowd B (the God exists people) only have subjective, untestable evidence.

      They have the greatest evidence of all. The world is here. If you would have told me (before the world came to be) that all these forces would come together and make what is now known as the world, I'd tell you that while it was possible, it was unlikely, and mostly foolish. You're like the guy who won the lottery and claimed, "I *knew* that I would win."

      There is no requirement on evidence to be "testable". That is a rule that Science placed upon itself. To then go and say that anything that is "untestable" is less reliable is rather closed-minded. You may choose not to use, and that is your right, but don't put down others who don;t believe in your rule.

      But why do you think they are mutually exclusive?

      Because those who believe in G-d, usually believe that He also created the world in a deliberate non explosive manner. That precludes the idea of a "big bang".

    46. Re:The origins of life indeed by JohnFluxx · · Score: 2

      so what's the point in calling creation god? It's like when people say god is love.

      If you are using the word God to mean creation, then who created that god in the first place, or if that doesn't quite make sense, what prompted the creation to take place? Why doesn't a piece of cake just create itself in front of me?

    47. Re:The origins of life indeed by HorsePunchKid · · Score: 2
      It's hard to win an argument about semantics when the person you're arguing with refuses to admit that words are invariably ambiguous. That was one of the joys of taking the "Philosophy of Space, Time, and Matter" course offered by the Physics Department here at UIUC. Every idea we discussed could be expressed very explicitly in terms of some physical system. That presented an opportunity to discuss difficult questions (What is observation? What is the past? What is knowledge?) in an environment where we didn't have to worry about semantics. It may surprise oliverthered to hear that such discussions are even possible.

      Anyway, just writing this in hopes that this thread doesn't bother going on any longer. I think you've made it sufficiently clear that there's no real debate going on here :).

      --
      Steven N. Severinghaus
    48. Re:The origins of life indeed by Chacham · · Score: 1

      So why couldn't the universe have just always existed?

      Because the universe is physical, and anything physical must come from one of two things. Either another physical thing, or something non-physical. If we say that the universe came from something else physical, then we haven't gotten anywhere (we've just added another step). Thus, it must have come from something non-physical, and it is that non-physical thing that Creationists call G-d. Regarless of powers people say G-d has, something non-physical must have created the physical world.

      G-d himself is non-physical. We don't know the rules of the non-physical world, and as such, we cannot say with any certainty that He must have been created or the like. Thus, we can say that G-d always existed, and we cannot say this about the world.

    49. Re:The origins of life indeed by Chacham · · Score: 1

      It looks like the creationists (or, at least, trolls pretending to be creationists) haven't come out of the woodwork yet.

      Umm... noone trolled us yet. :P

      I do not think a scientist is rejecting God when they try to look at something like the origin of life.

      Talk to the scientists one day.

      To me creationism is a form of denial

      And Evolutionism isn't?

      I still need help answering this question. Although I can't (yet) answer it myself, I use it as a proof to show how many "scientists" are closed-minded.

    50. Re:The origins of life indeed by Enzondio · · Score: 2

      I concur.

      And yes, I'm done posting on this thread (well, after this post anyway) and I'm not sure whether I should have gone on as much as I did.

      Ah well.

    51. Re:The origins of life indeed by dink33 · · Score: 0

      I don't know how relevant this is to anything.


      I've read somewhere (forget reference) that the simplest, self-replicating life-form has about 250,000 base pairs of DNA in information, which works out to be about 500,000 bits of info.


      So, if the universe was composed of a big soup of DNA, what are the chances of a group of DNA coming together in just the right way?


      It's about 1 in 2^500000 or 1 in 10^150000


      For order of magnitude estimates, the universe has been around for about 10^17 seconds and there are about 10^79 electrons in the universe.


      (I don't think the exponents on some of the 10s are exactly correct, but they are more or less in the right ball-park.)


      The point is that you'd have to have on the order of 10^150000 attempts a second to have a chance of stumbling onto the right pattern.


      Obviously, this ignores a lot of considerations which would take an exo-biologist or astro-physicist to properly address.

      --

      -- Frank Hsueh, frank.hsueh@gmail.com

    52. Re:The origins of life indeed by JohnFluxx · · Score: 2

      But our only example of this non-physical system is some thing that we created for the sole purpose of creating the physical system. riiiight

    53. Re:The origins of life indeed by Dread_ed · · Score: 1

      "I still need help answering this [slashdot.org] question

      Can't post in your journal, so I will post it here.

      If you are postulating a diety that respects free will of the lesser creation, then your question is irrelevant.

      By this I mean that if you have a diety that does something to force you to believe in it, then it is circumventing your free will and ability to decide whether you want to believe in it.

      The out for this, of course, is that the individual can reply "Nothing!" However, a truly ultra-powerful(and somewhat smartass) diety could utter the word "Nothing" right back to you in such a nuanced way that it would make you believe in it. Dieties are sooo tricky to deal with, just ask the ancient Greeks!

      Now if the diety does not respect the free will of the lesser being, the discussion is moot as well because the diety could use its power to either extract from the mind of the individual the necessary things to say, or change the brain of the being so that he has no choice but to believe.

      Furthermore, if the diety is the creating diety (the one who created the lesser being), the question would never come up in this circumstance because the diety would just create a bunch of creatures with locked-in belief structures that would ensure that the creatures believed in it.

      The only problem is there's no fun in that! ;)

      --
      When the only tool you have is a claw hammer every problem starts to look like the back of someone's skull.
    54. Re:The origins of life indeed by PurpleBob · · Score: 2

      observation/participation kinda 6 and 2 threes,

      What the fuck?

      Replace those numbers with 4 and 16 and you are the Time Cube guy.

      --
      Win dain a lotica, en vai tu ri silota
    55. Re:The origins of life indeed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, I have some ideas that would be good enough for me.

      Have "God" manifesting itself to every single person on earth, at the same time. You would be able to walk in the living room and say "honey, do you see this guy with me?... oh. I see you also have some dude with you claiming to be god." Then you could sit and chat, ask him any question and get verifiable answers. You could also walk to the mall, or watch some live broadcast, and see all the other manifestations of god. They would also be able to float, make objects materalize out of thin air, etc.

      Have god announce that he will give, not just you, but EVERYONE on earth super powers. And I mean any super power. When he gives everyone super powers, people are free to use them. Fly around, materalize objects from nothing, teleport, et cetera.

      Have him create a working 10GW fusion reactor out of thin air. On earth. Something humans haven't done. Shouldn't be a problem.

      Have god move a mountain. Safely, of course.

      Have god boom lightning and thunder, then manifest himself, to every person who says "nah, this is bullshit. Must be a hallucination." Your coworkers, fellow consumers, family, etc, would also see this happen, and get annoyed that you deny him so much, because the thunder is getting to them. Mass hallucination? No. It would be a repeatable event, verifiable in laboratory conditions, with any number of people present. It could be recorded on any medium to prove that it wasn't a hallucination.

      Etc.

    56. Re:The origins of life indeed by On+Lawn · · Score: 2

      It looks like the creationists (or, at least, trolls pretending to be creationists) haven't come out of the woodwork yet.

      Indeed.

      God created the laws of nature

      So you had to be the first creationist to speak up.

      To me creationism is a form of denial

      But then you deride it.

      I guess my problem is still, that creationism simply means that God created heavens and earth.

      I realize you probably have had some difficult times with other creationists in the past. I think everyone has. But it really looks to me like your trying to have you're cake and eat it too. Your trying to deride creationists, yet still hold on to a belief that God created the earth and the stuff on it.

      Perhaps this is better reconsiled by categorizing certain creationist doctrines that you do not espouse. Like me, I am a creationist, but not a Young Earth creationist. Well, even then I agree with some things, but do not think everything was created 6000 some odd years ago plus six days. I don't even think that view is biblicaly sound.

      This compartmentalizing needs to happen with the evolutionists also. For instance I agree that evolution happens if you are simply saying that things change over time, and changes that don't work don't propegate.

      But I don't agree that we can replace God with "randomness," or that evolution left to its own devices would make anything more complicated then a Macro Phage.

      We talk about the laws of physics, but has anyone learned the laws of genetic coding yet? I think that when we do we will find out why such things as a ball and socket hip joint (as used by bipeds) keeps getting killed off but coming back in exactly the same shape many years later. I think when we do, we will see the same craftsmanship in its laws that Einstien saw in physics and call such a fingerprint as belonging to "God".

      But between now and then, we'll find out that great fundamental building blocks that we relied on as part of evolutionary theory were only scaffolding for bigger better concepts (much like the mystery of the "cone" in its sections for planetary orbits was replaced with gravitational laws that allowed for interactions with more then one body at a time, and were therefore much more accurate.)

      In closing, there is simply too much going on to try to make umbrellas out of the words "evolution" and "creation". Neither of them are developed very well yet.

    57. Re:The origins of life indeed by oliverthered · · Score: 1

      Well If you say that participation is the effect of one thing on another (this could include wavey things) then to the affected the effect is an observation.

      If i push you then your observation is that you've been pushed.

      If i merge two waves then there observation is that they become one different wave.

      In this sense the observer is the affected or the participants.

      --
      thank God the internet isn't a human right.
    58. Re:The origins of life indeed by Chacham · · Score: 1

      Can't post in your journal, so I will post it here.

      Thanx.

      the discussion is moot as well because the diety could use its power to either extract from the mind of the individual the necessary things to say, or change the brain of the being so that he has no choice but to believe.

      I excluded those answers in the journal.

      The reason is that the main point of the question is to see if our own methods of proof directly exclude the possibility of a deity, or if such a possibility exists, but it has never happened.

    59. Re:The origins of life indeed by Chacham · · Score: 1

      Then you could sit and chat, ask him any question and get verifiable answers.

      Any examples?

      Fly around, materalize objects from nothing, teleport, et cetera.

      And this alone would make you believe completely and positively that the deity is a deity? What if a second deity came to you and said that the first was just a scientist, and that he (the newer deity) was the *real* deity?

      It would be a repeatable event, verifiable in laboratory conditions, with any number of people present. It could be recorded on any medium to prove that it wasn't a hallucination.

      But isn't that what Life is? It's repeatable, and noone can explain it. Also, how would you prove that it was the deity that did it? Would you just assume that the deity did it because it happened right after the deity said that it would?

    60. Re:The origins of life indeed by PurpleBob · · Score: 2

      Yes, I've heard you attempt to explain your philosophy already. Repeating it doesn't make it any clearer, and as I intended to point out, using nonsense phrases like "observation/participation kinda 6 and 2 threes" doesn't either.

      --
      Win dain a lotica, en vai tu ri silota
    61. Re:The origins of life indeed by PurpleBob · · Score: 2

      God is the point in calling creation God. God is cake, too.

      (Don't mind me, I'm just taking the "Then what about foo?" "God is foo." line of argument to its natural conclusion.)

      --
      Win dain a lotica, en vai tu ri silota
    62. Re:The origins of life indeed by oliverthered · · Score: 1

      Not supprised at all, I was argueing that one is micro and the other macro. very much 6 and two 3's
      The problem is in expressing the micro/macro nature of things, especially when I'm more concerned with the why than the what.

      --
      thank God the internet isn't a human right.
  14. Number 10 by Fulkkari · · Score: 1

    Well. We still have Bruce Willis to fix the problem with mystery number 10, "can we survive 2003"... Or would his actions violate the DMCA?

    --
    I demand the Cone of Silence!
    1. Re:Number 10 by Kojote · · Score: 1

      Ahh, Willis don't have to worry about the DMCA, he'd just blow them up with the asteroid.

  15. Computer simulations by fruey · · Score: 4, Interesting

    A lot of the things are based on theories which are tested on computer models. What I'd really like to know, is how these are programmed, that's the great mystery. Because they are all working on past events, and seem to only desire to do so. The quantum leap will happen when enough detailed data is gathered about actual events as they happen, which can then be extrapolated to the past. Now, maybe some of this happens already, but the issue I have with these sites is that they do not cross-link often enough to research papers that explain things to that %age of people who, like me, are thoroughly unsatisfied by the superficiality of such content.

    Most of the models (follow the links in some sections) seem to have given incorrect output - so the real question is what they do then... it's a bit easy, really, to take your model and add a couple of new variables in there until they get it right. This doesn't really prove anything though, does it? e.g. There are a couple of planets missing but they are there, so let's bung in a bit of extra icy matter and UV radiation that will cause it to collapse into Uranus.

    The moon creation simulation is the one that gets me. They seem still to be assuming that it's ONE impact that created the moon, and even give the analogy of a small car crashing into an SUV (follow links from moon story). I think it's much more chaotic than that, and is really a big highway pile-up, but where some cars could still run, and were driven away billions of years ago, some have degraded into other rocks and asteroids, and the big bit in the middle coalesced into the moon. But astronomers always simplify for a better comprehension. This is all very well, but then they go on to insist their model is somehow close to reality. I think it's way too complex for a computer to simulate; every atom has a /dev/random (OK it's more like a predictable Windows TCP/IP stack, but there's some entropy in there), and that's the real problem. How do you simulate all of those?

    The real excitement comes when currently forming galaxies can be studied over a long enough period - perhaps by simultaneously studying several galaxies in enough detail to come up with decent fluid/gas dynamics in space.

    --
    Conversion Rate Optimisation French / English consultant
    1. Re:Computer simulations by beta21 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      These models are constructed with a lot of blood sweat and tears.
      Because they are all working on past events, and seem to only desire to do so.
      How do you verify a model? How do you know the laws of motion really work? Usually you carry out an experiemtn then compare it to your model, in this case the experiemtn just so happens to be our backyard (universe etc.).

      Most of the models (follow the links in some sections) seem to have given incorrect output - so the real question is what they do then... it's a bit easy, really, to take your model and add a couple of new variables in there until they get it right.
      It is not so easy to just add more variables, if you do that than it just becomes an excercise in curve fitting. You have to justify your model within a Physical framework. And just as any program you write you test your model to the limits....this is where it gets interesting and adds to the predictive nature of the model you are building.

      This is all very well, but then they go on to insist their model is somehow close to reality. I think it's way too complex for a computer to simulate; every atom has a /dev/random
      NO you don;t have to model every atom, or every quark and lepton interaction. We manage to descripte planetry motion (Kepler's laws) quite easily without going into the Quantum nature of atomic and sub atomic particles, though the boundry of when quantum starts to act as a macroscopic system is a very active research front presently.
      The time periods discussed in forming galaxies very long, we have a very limited dataset and we make the best guesses we can.
      I can't remeber who said the quote, I think it was Dirac, but it goes somethin like, "We came along in the middle of a chess game without knowing the rules, we've only seen a handful of moves and we are still trying to figure it out!"

    2. Re:Computer simulations by fruey · · Score: 1
      Thanks for your response.

      When I said "past events", I'm getting at very old events, distant past, millions of years ago.

      I think a bit of curve fitting does go on, but the physical models are of course getting better

      Nice chess quote. Cheers.

      --
      Conversion Rate Optimisation French / English consultant
    3. Re:Computer simulations by XSforMe · · Score: 1

      Most of the models (follow the links in some sections) seem to have given incorrect output - so the real question is what they do then... it's a bit easy, really, to take your model and add a couple of new variables in there until they get it right. This doesn't really prove anything though, does it?
      Well, if it works in a consistent manner (consitente with the established laws of physics) and explains past and helps predict future phenomena, then it does proove something. This is how most of our current knowledge is formed. As your point out its not fool-proof, and it takes a lot of time and experimenation to come up with viable theory. When you have something relatively solid, your can release your theory to the general scientific comunity for further probing. Though it may not be the most convinient method (there is no way to ask an omnisapient god/being/entity on the true mechanics of a phenomena), it has been the most trusted method used by the scientific comunity in the last couple centuries.

      This is all very well, but then they go on to insist their model is somehow close to reality. I think it's way too complex for a computer to simulate; every atom has a /dev/random (OK it's more like a predictable Windows TCP/IP stack, but there's some entropy in there), and that's the real problem. How do you simulate all of those?
      You don't (unless you have a heck of a machine and even then you don't). As a researcher, you will just have to choose which are the most important variables and overlook the finer ones.

      But your post, along with the article has left me something to think about. Most of us take whatever they taught us at school for granted. When I was in high school, there was a widely accepted theory that the universe would colapse again under its own gravitational pull. Mystery 1 seems to nullify this theory. I guess the moral of the story is to take every new theory with a grain of salt and take a hard long look at established laws when observed phenomena do not seem to follow these laws. Always keep up with current research and be open to new ideas.

      --
      My other OS is the MCP!
    4. Re:Computer simulations by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      These models are constructed with a lot of blood sweat and tears.

      Oh, gee, thanks for this insightful explanation. I always thought it was magick fairies.

    5. Re:Computer simulations by Christopher+Thomas · · Score: 2

      While your post was interesting, there are a few statements you make that seem to be based on incomplete information:

      The quantum leap will happen when enough detailed data is gathered about actual events as they happen, which can then be extrapolated to the past.

      Unfortunately, it is unlikely that any possible measurements will allow this. Firstly, even if you assume a closed system (the solar system not being substantially affected by things outside it), small uncertainties in knowledge of the system's state at the time of measurement grow very rapidly as state is extrapolated forwards or backwards in time for complex systems (like the solar system). While some parts of the system may be insensitive to error (we can predict with reasonable certainty where Jupiter was a hundred thousand years ago), other parts aren't, and uncertainties in even stable parts still stack up over time.

      Secondly, even with perfectly accurate measurements, the solar system (or anything else smaller than the universe) is a closed system. You'd need not only measurements of the piece you're interested in, but of all parts of the forward-facing light cone of the past state you're interested in... and then have some way to subtract the contributions from everything in the past light-cone of the area you're sampling to get the forward light-cone. And then you repeat the process for this larger sample set. So, you end up making approximations about the contribution of external events, as these cannot be known with certainty without knowing the state of the entire universe.

      In summary, detailed, accurate prediction into the distant past or future is impossible

      so the real question is what they do then... it's a bit easy, really, to take your model and add a couple of new variables in there until they get it right. This doesn't really prove anything though, does it?

      Even an accurate model proves nothing. A model is a description of a system used as an aid in making predictions about the behavior of the system. The real way the system works may bear no relation to the structure of the model, even if the predictions seem perfectly accurate.

      In practice, however, a model that makes many accurate predictions and very few inaccurate ones stands a good chance of being a reasonable approximation to the way reality works.

      What we're doing by refining these models is trying to get a better understanding of how reality works. If experimental evidence is at odds with the model's predictions, of *course* it will be changed. However, as the model was already based on experimental evidence to the greatest degree possible, it still stands a reasonable chance of being mostly correct. Thus, it is modified, instead of thrown away and replaced.

      To cause a model to be thrown away, you don't just have to show that it mispredicts some cases - you have to provide a replacement that's better than the original.

      In summary, as long as the current system formation models are the most accurate of the models offered, we'll refine them, and not replace them.

      The moon creation simulation is the one that gets me. They seem still to be assuming that it's ONE impact that created the moon, and even give the analogy of a small car crashing into an SUV (follow links from moon story). I think it's much more chaotic than that, and is really a big highway pile-up, but where some cars could still run, and were driven away billions of years ago, some have degraded into other rocks and asteroids, and the big bit in the middle coalesced into the moon.
      Three-body collisions between very large objects are far, far less common than two-body collisions. Space is big; the chances of even two large bodies being in the same place at the same time is remote. Three is even less likely.

      If you postulate that collisions are frequent enough for three-body collisions to occur, then the inescapable conclusion is that any products of three-body collisions would be utterly changed by the far more frequent two-body collisions, making the existance of three-body collisions moot.

      In summary, a two-body scenario for creation of the moon is the most likely.

      I think it's way too complex for a computer to simulate; every atom has a /dev/random (OK it's more like a predictable Windows TCP/IP stack, but there's some entropy in there), and that's the real problem. How do you simulate all of those?

      By realizing what parameters have a significant contribution to the simulation, and which don't. We can model the orbit of the earth extremely accurately without having to know the state of every atom within it; its travel is primarily affected by only its total mass and the position of its center of mass. Anyone proposing a model of a system or writing up the results of a paper based on a new simulation will explain in great detail why they only need to consider the parameters they do, and what the resulting error ranges will be.
      In summary, solar system simulations can be trusted to be reasonably useful without tracking the state of every atom in the solar system.

      The real excitement comes when currently forming galaxies can be studied over a long enough period - perhaps by simultaneously studying several galaxies in enough detail to come up with decent fluid/gas dynamics in space.

      Unfortunately, except for very special cases (like looking at the black holes at the hearts of galaxies), the distances and time scales involved prevent us from getting more than one snapshot of a galaxy's behavior. Galaxies are tens to hundreds of thousands of light-years wide. As most parts of them move far slower than light, the time required for any substantial galaxy-scale phenomenon to occur - even a very fast one, by galactic standards - will be many millions of years. It is unlikely that we will have time to observe this.

      Galactic formation also finished many billions of years ago. The forming galaxies we can still observe are far enough away to be impractical to study (billions of light-years, to look back billions of years; objects at that distance appear as points only).

      In summary, both distance and time concerns make the observation of large-scale changes in galaxies impractical for the forseeable future.

    6. Re:Computer simulations by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      NO you don;t have to model every atom, or every quark and lepton interaction. We manage to descripte planetry motion (Kepler's laws) quite easily without going into the Quantum nature of atomic and sub atomic particles, though the boundry of when quantum starts to act as a macroscopic system is a very active research front presently.

      Except Kepler's laws led to universal gravitation, which GR has shown is incorrect. So really all you can do without modeling every quanta of matter is to make a rough approximation.

      I can't remeber who said the quote, I think it was Dirac, but it goes somethin like, "We came along in the middle of a chess game without knowing the rules, we've only seen a handful of moves and we are still trying to figure it out!"

      Feynman said that, not Dirac.

    7. Re:Computer simulations by fruey · · Score: 1
      In summary, detailed, accurate prediction into the distant past or future is impossible Unfortunately, except for very special cases (like looking at the black holes at the hearts of galaxies), the distances and time scales involved prevent us from getting more than one snapshot of a galaxy's behavior. Galaxies are tens to hundreds of thousands of light-years wide. As most parts of them move far slower than light, the time required for any substantial galaxy-scale phenomenon to occur - even a very fast one, by galactic standards - will be many millions of years. It is unlikely that we will have time to observe this.

      What I was wondering was if the information from several galaxies, at different states (young stars being born, old stars collapsing, etc) could put together to model a sort of overall ruleset. I believe, in fact, that this is already happening. But as we gather more data, get better at mining it, and adding it to computations, then we will be able to better extrapolate. However large variables are left - we know the Earth's gravitational pull right now, but this hasn't always been the case. Indeed I've already seen interesting argument about how the poles have shifted on the Earth, and indeed Magnetic North has switched poles too.

      Details like collisions of bodies in space may take millions of years to show their final ramifications, but over a few years (100 or so) we could gather enough data to reasonably see what happens if we could just find a place where bodies crash (we have observed some for planets in our Solar System already I believe). Advances in telescopes which are able to see planets in distant systems, instead of just their suns, will probably enable something of a leap.

      A lot of questions remain unanswered... but I appreciate your response very much, these debates are the very nature of amateur (and professional) astronomy.

      --
      Conversion Rate Optimisation French / English consultant
  16. Origin of life a mystery? Yeah, right. by pyth · · Score: 0, Flamebait
    It is common knowledge that life originated by first starting with some fundamental materials (primordial soup), then an electric discharge created amino acids, which then self-assembled into various proteins, some of which which then evolved into fully functioning metabolic and reproductive systems.

    How is it a mystery when everybody knows this?

    1. Re:Origin of life a mystery? Yeah, right. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So what gave these amino acids the big idea to "self assemble"? I mean, here I am -- a lazy amino acid, just floating around in some soup. What's in it for me to get up off my lazy amino ass, expend energy, find some motivation, and "assemble"? Fighting crowds is hard work. I think I'd rather just take it easy and catch a few Z's.

    2. Re:Origin of life a mystery? Yeah, right. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's called a rare, random mutation. slow evolution - look into it.

    3. Re:Origin of life a mystery? Yeah, right. by Sloppy · · Score: 1
      That's not "common knowledge"; it's just the theory that seems most likely given what we know right now. It's not like it has been (or ever will be) conclusively confirmed. It would just be pretty surprising if that's not what happened.

      And even if that's what happened, where did it happen? On Earth? On Mars and then some of it accidently rubbed off onto Earth after a meteor incident? On the Vorlon homeworld, and then it evolved into intelligent beings who decided to build probes to spread microbes all over the universe to seed it with life, two billion years ago?

      If we find other life even here in this solar system, it'll be interesting to see if it's somehow related to us. Does it use the same genetic code and ribosomes to transcribe genes to proteins? Does it even use DNA at all, or something else?

      We haven't found any unrelated life on Earth, so we think life only appeared once here, or if it popped up more than once, the others were eaten for their delicious energy-concentrating molecules (yum!). But if life happens as easy as some people think, then alien life will be unrelated and show us some amazing stuff. It'll also help (somewhat) to corroborate your theory and suggest that our life started here.

      OTOH, if it is related, that'll be amazing as well. And that'll probably make it even harder to track down origins, since it will probably not have started here (but still could have). You'll have new professions like "astropaleobiologist." ;-)

      Or is it simply not out there, because life developed on Earth first and hasn't spread anywhere else yet?

      No, the question of origin is mostly still unanswered. There is still a lot of room for research, unfortunately very expensive.

      --
      As copyright owner of this comment, I authorize everyone to defeat any technological measure which limits access to it.
  17. at least two counter examples by pyth · · Score: 2, Funny
    Not all space captains take off their shirts. Two examples come to mind.


    1. Captain Dylan Hunt of the starship Andromeda. Always fights in full body armor.


    2. Janeway, unfortunately. >:-(


    Oh, and mystery number 13: Why do ship computers add sound effects to explosions?

    1. Re:at least two counter examples by Moloch666 · · Score: 1

      2. Janeway, unfortunately. >:-(

      My god, I would never want to see Janeway topless!

      Now 7 of 9 should not be allowed to wear clothes.

      --
      Understanding is a three-edged sword. -- Kosh Naranek
    2. Re:at least two counter examples by sconeu · · Score: 2

      2. Janeway, unfortunately

      Macrocosm. Janeway as Ripley is one of my guilty pleasures.

      --
      General Relativity: Space-time tells matter where to go; Matter tells space-time what shape to be.
  18. Re:My girlfriend on the Christmas eve by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Go ahead, you sexy bundle of manhood. We can't stand waiting for you to try it.

  19. Microsoft appeasers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    Jesus Christ! I can't believe this thread.

    When did Slashdot turn into such hotbed of Microsoft appeasers?

  20. Re:My girlfriend on the Christmas eve by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    Try what?

    I just don't understand women. Why did she bring up the topic if she wasn't serious? On the other hand, if I ask her about it, she'll get mad at me for daring to think about such thing ("am I not enough or you?") or just for not being able to read her mind.

  21. calling all /. biologists by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

    something thats always had me puzzled when pondering how dead bits of matter could become living organisms -

    What exactly is the physical difference between living and dead cells?

    surely the fact that they absorb chemicals and reproduce cant be the only difference, these are more charactistics of actually living rather than evidence itself. Is there an actual quantifiable physical difference? i mean whats stopping all dead cells coming back to life etc?

    1. Re:calling all /. biologists by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Life is a system attribute. You can temporarily keep a component (a liver, say) "alive" (i.e. still capable of providing it's life supporting function) during a transplant by providing it the right conditions, but once components degrade suffientiently then system death fill follow. Of course death doesn't mean that all components simulataneously lose functionality at the same time, which is why organs can be used for transplants after death, but if you are around someone dying from disease they start to smell "of death" a few days before they (the system) finally fails - some components are already degrading.

      There's certainly going to be some physical/chemical difference between a cell that's still alive (i.e. capable of doing what it normally does) and not. Once it's degraded from functioning specification then I don't think there's any going back, although at a system level (if this occured in the body) then it may get replaced if everything else is working OK.

      I am not a doctor, nor play one on TV.

    2. Re:calling all /. biologists by Yokaze · · Score: 2

      > i mean whats stopping all dead cells coming back to life etc?

      Second law of thermodynamics. AFAIK, the only phyical law with a temporal direction.

      Speaking of cells is a little bit to generic. Let's reduce it the most simple form known to me: bacteria.

      The DNA of bacteria does not age, due to their circular DNA.
      (Human cells have a linear DNA, which shortens at each mitosis, which limits the number of replications -> age)
      They split, so practically they are two identical bacteria (mutations aside) with the same age.
      How do they die? They become defective. It's not like they just stop working out of nothing.

      Why don't they become living again? The same reason a broken glass doesn't get whole again.

      Thinking of cryogenics: It (currently) doesn't work because in the processs of freezing and defreezing cells are destroyed, but there are creatures (IRC, some frogs), which due to the constitution (word?) of their cells, are able to survive this process.

      --
      "Between strong and weak, between rich and poor [...], it is freedom which oppresses and the law which sets free"
    3. Re:calling all /. biologists by XSforMe · · Score: 1

      What exactly is the physical difference between living and dead snip
      This is an excelent question, and center to many heated debates. When I was in highschool, I was taught that if it could breath (as in burn glucose to obtain energy), then it was alive. It seems that the scientific comunity conscents on at least seven traits of living orgainsims. The following articles go further into this subject:

      These traits seem to leave viruses out of the living, or at least put it somewhere in the middle between living and dead. As nasty as they can get to be, they are quite fascinating little things, which excibit many properties of live beings.

      It would be a very interesting if we were to find some outer space entity which fulfilled only some of the listed requisits. I guess that would put a real test on to define what is alive, and what is dead.

      --
      My other OS is the MCP!
  22. Dark Matter/Dark Energy by JanusFury · · Score: 5, Funny

    What is dark matter, you ask? God needs to defrag the universe. It's little bits of discarded matter from ages past... just think, random garbled bits of your grandfather could be floating somewhere!

    --
    using namespace slashdot;
    troll::post();
    1. Re:Dark Matter/Dark Energy by Tablizer · · Score: 1

      just think, random garbled bits of your grandfather could be floating somewhere!

      Garbled DNA? Well, that may explain my funny eyebrows.

  23. Any other good space news sites? by Timmeh · · Score: 2

    I've recently activated the space.com slashbox and I recommend you do too. I like the stories there (tho' i refused to go there back in my pre-phoenix days due to there liberal use of pop-ups), but they don't post news very frequently. I was wondering if some slashdotter knew of a better site that offered a more comprehensive look at all news related to astronomy/spaceflight/etc.?

    1. Re:Any other good space news sites? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Space.com is good. They do have competition, though, including:

      http://www.spaceflightnow.com/

  24. Can we survive 2003? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    The real question is "Can we survive 2002?".

    1. Re:Can we survive 2003? by Skevin · · Score: 2

      From the article:

      > For now, there are no space rocks known to be on
      > a collision course with Earth. At the same time,
      > there are tons of them out there that have not
      > been found.

      I think a little math is in order here. Assume that an Extinction-Level-Event asteroid is 8 tons, which is by all means a conservative estimate when you think about it: a full truckload of ceramic iron magnetic cores easily weighs as much, and wouldn't come anywhere near levelling the Eastern Seaboard if dropped from space.

      Exactly what is "tons of" these space rocks? Maybe three. Our chances of getting killed in 2003 just tripled to 6 in 150,000,000,000. Better get back to work, digging out those underground shelters, people.

      Solomon

      --
      "Twice half-assed makes an ass whole." --Solomon K. Chang
  25. Number 10... by marcushnk · · Score: 1

    Do we have a chance of getting through 2003??

    Blow the space rocks.. I want to know if the world superpowers/organisations will let us live through 2003...

    come to think of it.. does anyone know what the official odds are on that??

    --
    "Consider how lucky you are that life has been good to you so far. Alternatively, if life hasn't been good to you so far
    1. Re:Number 10... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      The odds are pretty good. Killing everyone off would not be profitable for our American corporations. A lot of people are expendable, of course, but the optimum profit-maximizing solution does include humanity continuing in some form.

      If by "we" you mean a group that specifically includes you, then I can't say. Have you been a good customer?

  26. Expanding Universe by yoyona · · Score: 1

    If the universe is expanding at an ever increasing rate, surely that would imply the chances of an asteroid colliding into us are decreasing as all matter gets further apart and in turn empty space becomes larger.
    Maybe that would explain the long period of cosmic peace humans have flourished under.

    1. Re:Expanding Universe by Slaveway · · Score: 2, Insightful
      Maybe that would explain the long period of cosmic peace humans have flourished under.
      In Cosmic terms Humanity has not even been around for a second
      --

      http://www.Slaveway.com
  27. Asteroid Belt = Missing Planet by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This one seems kind of obvious and just common sense. How else does this mysterious cluster of rocks esemble in a specific orbit around the sun when there are comets flying all over the place with their own individual orbits. It also lends itself to juicy conspiracy theories about our possible ancestors who blew themselves up with their technology the same way were are.

    1. Re:Asteroid Belt = Missing Planet by WeeLad · · Score: 1
      Marduk sent the four winds to cleave Tiamat, according to Zecharia Sitchin (the 12th planet). Supposedly the Earth formed from one half of the planet Tiamat and the asteroid belt formed from the other.

      But from the article, I think that they're saying that we have a couple planets too many (not actually missing one), if our computer simulations are to be correct. Computer simulations using the theories of Solar System formation are saying that a couple of the outer planets should not be there, which implies that our current theories are wrong (or slightly off).

      --
      Seriously, Don't take anything I say seriously.
  28. My top unsolved space mystery by anticypher · · Score: 1, Offtopic

    Whaddya mean my disk is full? Again?
    But it hasn't been a week since I last did
    sudo rm -r /*

    the AC
    "The steady state of disks is full." -- Ken Thompson Ahhh, that 'splains it!

    --
    Hemos is like...sci-fi fans;he thinks technology is cool, but he hasn't bothered to understand the science it's based on
  29. Well, I will by autopr0n · · Score: 2

    I'm not the same person who posted the invictive, but I do agree with it. Your post was not funny at all. You might not be an idiot, but you are definetly unfunny.

    --
    autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
  30. My take on it... by Kjella · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I think the people who take Creation literally is failing to see that God (if we assume there is one) was explaining this to people 2000 years ago. They didn't have any chance to understand the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. The one-page intro is the abrigded and simplified version that men 2000 years ago could in some way phantom.

    It's like trying to explain about having a baby to a kid. You don't start off with the ribonucleic acid (RNA) in a sperm cell and an egg cell joining together and forming deoxynucleic acid (DNA), and how cell division works, and how hormones activate processes and whatever else small details are involved. You keep to the "important" parts and results (like that it takes 9 months and mom will have a big belly).

    In the same way, if you are to believe Genisis, God created the earth, the stars and all life on it. Now if he did that by Big Bang, or by snapping his fingers in 4004 BC, is that really "important" in that sense? I don't think so. Guess someone does, though...

    Kjella

    --
    Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
    1. Re:My take on it... by gad_zuki! · · Score: 5, Insightful

      > I think the people who take Creation literally is failing to see that God (if we assume there is one) was explaining this to people 2000 years ago.

      That's why creationists believe what they do, because some ancient culture came up with a creation myth and it remains in modern culture today. The problems you mention regarding the "how's and why's" probably has a lot more to do with the cognitive dissonance of being aware of scientific cosmology and holding religious beliefs at the same time. The two rarely agree and its easy to mix them up in some ridiculous and impossible to falsify "God did it all" theory/philosophy.

    2. Re:My take on it... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And what makes you think you're capable of understanding today how He did it? Do you believe our science is so advanced that we understand everything? I'm sure you don't, but that is a logical question to ask based on the statements you made.

      So if we can't understand the details now, what good would spelling it out do?

    3. Re:My take on it... by Dread_ed · · Score: 1

      "I think the people who take Creation literally is failing to see that God (if we assume there is one) was explaining this to people 2000 years ago. They didn't have any chance to understand the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth."
      "It's like trying to explain about having a baby to a kid"


      From your comments I gather that you feel that societies of 2000 years ago were deficient in their ability to understand or reason.

      Keep in mind that some of the greatest philosophers that ever lived lived at that time.

      Furthermore, societies that predate the Romans by millenia created some fantastic wonders of engineering that required levels of rational thought and planning greater than we can probably imagine, especially considering the lack of technological tools they had at their disposal.

      My personal belief is that while we have knowledge that ancient societies never dreamed of, some of those ancient societies had secrets we can only guess at as well. Just look at megalithic structures and such.

      That being said, the way the Bible is written is anything but "abridged and simple." Case in point, you yourself do not even understand it. Furthermore, the account of the creation of the universe and the Earth is spread out over the entire Bible.

      And on that note, the "Biblical account" of creation that most uninformed individuals refer to in Genesis does not describe the creation of the world or the universe. Both the world and the universe existed for immense spans of time before the creation of man, at least according to the Bible. However since most people do not read past the first chapter (if they read at all), and they don't consider the true meaning of the Bible from the original languages, they don't know that the Genesis account refers strictly to the creation of biological life on Earth. What you think you are reading in the English is not what it really says in the original Hebrew.

      The Bible not only says the earth is older than most "Creationists" believe, but it also describes the earth as being packed in ice for a long period of time before man was on the earth. Sound familiar? It does to me, scientists have described evidence of massive Ice ages on the pre-history Earth.

      Oh, also, Genesis was not written 2000 years ago. It was most likely written between 1200 and 1500 BC. That's about 3000 to 3500 years.

      As an aside, I am horrified that a group of people as supposedly intelligent at the /. crowd would look at the parent post with it's obviously inacurate biological information and then mod it up as if the poster had something good to say. I don't expect him to get the parts right about the Bible, most Christians can't do that, but at least he can get the high school level biology stuff correct.

      It is completely impossible to say anything truly intelligent or enlightening in a space this size, excep

      --
      When the only tool you have is a claw hammer every problem starts to look like the back of someone's skull.
    4. Re:My take on it... by Dun+Malg · · Score: 2
      From your comments I gather that you feel that societies of 2000 years ago were deficient in their ability to understand or reason. Keep in mind that some of the greatest philosophers that ever lived lived at that time.

      I don't think he was belittling their abilities; rather he was acknowledging their limitations. Where would one start to explain genetics to someone with no foundation in modern biology or chemistry? Back then, chemistry had elements called "fire", "water", "earth", and "air". Do you start by telling those great philosophers "OK, first thing: your system of elements is totally wrong"?

      My personal belief is that while we have knowledge that ancient societies never dreamed of, some of those ancient societies had secrets we can only guess at as well. Just look at megalithic structures and such.

      Heh. I don't understand why people are impressed by the "ancients" ability to move heavy things without cranes. Get enough people and take enough time and you can move all sorts of rocks around. Besides you think the ancients had mysteries? Try going back in time and explaining how a laser printer works to ANYONE. Hell, try going to your local supermarket and explaining it.

      That being said, the way the Bible is written is anything but "abridged and simple." Case in point, you yourself do not even understand it. Furthermore, the account of the creation of the universe and the Earth is spread out over the entire Bible.

      be that as it may, the quick-and-dirty "six easy steps to creating the universe" in Genesis certainly does read as a "handwave" explaination, even if the Word of God later in the book makes reference to more details. To me, his comments seem to be aimed at Genesis. Whether later chapter and verse explains in greater detail is irrelevant, as the hard-core creationists tend to be "strictly Genesis" minded.

      --
      If a job's not worth doing, it's not worth doing right.
    5. Re:My take on it... by Dread_ed · · Score: 1

      Playing the Devil's advocate here, but maybe you could show me the body of scientific evidence that precludes the creation of the universe by a deity.

      To do this, you might want to first create a comprehensive cosmological model of the universe so that you can explain the full spectrum of phenomena observed in the universe, and that also explains the origin and subsequent development of the universal structure we currently see. Oh, by the way, your model will have to account for all future discoveries before they are seen.

      Let's look at this from another perspective: After reading a story about how much we DON'T KNOW about the universe, we are discussing the foibles of those who believe that it was created by God.

      Does this not seem a little strange?

      Here is a subject that is a declared mystery, and you are using it as an opportunity to try to debunk a belief structure that you cannot prove is wrong with the available evidence. In other words, your denial (even labeling!) of a "creation myth" is just as much an expression of faith as said "creation myth" itself. Or, in other words, since there is so much we don't know about the universe, how can you be sure that God did not create it?

      It seems folly to me for the scientific community and individuals to embrace multiple and exceptionally disparate theories of the creation of the universe and then unquestioningly reject that one such acceptable theory could be divine in origin.

      None of the many theories proposed by science has been shown to be correct, and the multiplicity of theories somehow does not seem to bother some people. However, if you include the words "God" or "Deity" or "supernatural" all of a sudden the theory must be crap and the result of weak minded people.

      To me it just seems like these individuals have an agenda and that they are trying to support it with pseudo-scientific reinforcements. Sounds like they are writing their own religion and using the basis of science to strengthen their faith.

      Then again, maybe the unstated premise in cosmological studies is: Since God does not exist, how did all this get here? This seems to make more sense in the context, however, since there has never been a single piece of evidence presented to prove the idea that God does not exist, it places the results of anything based upon this premise on shaky ground.

      Anyways, I say all this to make the point that it seems strange to me that people will think, "Ya, string theory sounds good" and say "Well, it could have been the Big Bang," and then again state "I bet it's a steady-state regurgitating do-hickie universe!" But the moment you say, "What if God really did create the universe?" They FREAK out on you like you are some sort of Nazi Storm Trooper. Again the curious part is that there is no evidence to prove that either of you is right or wrong, and yet your typical "scientific minded" individual will reject the idea out of mind, all the while calling you a "sheep" or "weak minded" for choosing to believe in something other than a scientist's view of what the universe might have been created like. Never mind that the models presented are acknowledged to be incomplete and unproven, SCIENCE made them so they must be true!

      Reminds me of the creationists that doggedly stick by their personal interpretation of what the Bible says, even though the original languages say something entirely different. In other words, people on both sides of the tracks are acting in the same manner: they will deny anything that contradicts their personal beliefs without giving reason or logic a chance to consider the facts.

      Karma: Excellent (mostly from refraining from killing all the wankers who are really begging for it)

      --
      When the only tool you have is a claw hammer every problem starts to look like the back of someone's skull.
    6. Re:My take on it... by Dread_ed · · Score: 1

      "To me, his comments seem to be aimed at Genesis. Whether later chapter and verse explains in greater detail is irrelevant, as the hard-core creationists tend to be "strictly Genesis" minded."

      So in other words, let's ignore what the Bible really says and stick with what some moron thinks is the right idea. Hmmm.

      Sorry, I can't be a party to that kind of behavior. I would rather be corect and alone than stupid with everyone else.

      Again, let me try to state this so that everyone can understand. If you think that the Genesis account of creation describes the creation of the universe you are wrong. I don't care if you are a Christian or not. The text says one thing, if you read it wrong due to lack of scholarship that dosen't magically make your mistake the truth. I don't know how much more plain I can make this.

      Let's try analogy: If someone tells me that the Whinnie the Pooh book in my daughters room is a physics text, who's the idiot if I read it and try to put together a linear accelerator from the pictures in the book? It's even worse if someone else believes that I should have consulted the page on the honey bees instead of the one on where Pooh gets stuck when I built the magnetic arrays.

      This is the way I see the arguments over creation and other "scientific" arguments for the origin of the universe. What's worse, the "Creationists" haven't even studied the Bible enough to know up from down, and the people who are trying to debunk it are arguing the merits of a standard model that hasn't even accounted for the observable phenomena in the universe, much less it's origin.

      "I don't think he was belittling their abilities; rather he was acknowledging their limitations.

      On the subject of limitations, there are some in the scientific community that believe that humanity does not posess the ability to comprehend the things that we observe in nature, much less the state of events at 10*-20 seconds after the "Big Bang." In other words, frame of reference might not even help US with the secrets of the creation of the universe.

      --
      When the only tool you have is a claw hammer every problem starts to look like the back of someone's skull.
    7. Re:My take on it... by Dun+Malg · · Score: 2
      Let's try analogy: If someone tells me that the Whinnie the Pooh book in my daughters room is a physics text, who's the idiot if I read it and try to put together a linear accelerator from the pictures in the book? It's even worse if someone else believes that I should have consulted the page on the honey bees instead of the one on where Pooh gets stuck when I built the magnetic arrays.

      I think we're arguing from the same position. I think we agree that taking Genesis as the real origin of the universe is absurd. Assuming the bible to be the eord of god, I see it as the "comic book" version of the story for those who haven't the foundation to understand the details. Those who want the details, read further.

      --
      If a job's not worth doing, it's not worth doing right.
  31. wow, you must be psychic. by autopr0n · · Score: 2

    So sure nothing of import happens between dec 27 and 31 2003.

    Hrm, I wonder if we'll survive 2002....

    --
    autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
    1. Re:wow, you must be psychic. by 91degrees · · Score: 3, Funny

      Yes we will. And I offer a full refund if I'm wrong.

  32. A mystery... kind of... by autopr0n · · Score: 2

    We don't know exactly how life on earth started, and we never will. All we can do is come up with resonable theories that don't have any holes. They may be right, or maybe not.

    Since we can't go back in time, there is no true way to figure out which theory is 'right'. You can only elimnate some theories by disproving them.

    The search for the origin of life is really nothing more for the search for the condition of the earth when life began. Once you know what the conditions were, you can create models that will work under those conditions.

    Finaly, scientests have been able to create life from nothing in labs for decades, its just that we don't know if the conditions were exactly the same as those of the primordial earth.

    --
    autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
    1. Re:A mystery... kind of... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Finaly, scientests have been able to create life from nothing in labs for decades

      How did this drivel get a score of 2?

  33. Too plitical and off topic by FungiSpunk · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    Without treading too deaply into political areas, perhaps we should looking at why people our are sleeping in cardboard boxes on street corners while the exec's in the building next door make $200k a year! That seems slightly more important to me than worrying about stuff out there, just for the time being anyway.

    --

    "I kill you! You no good 56'ing!"
    1. Re:Too plitical and off topic by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Well, that's important to you, but are you more like the cardboard box guy, or the exec? The cardboard box guy doesn't have much resources to expend to look into the problem, and the exec has the resources, but not the motivation.

      I think we're going to either worry about whatever the exec thinks is important, or rob him at gunpoint. So the real question is which Evil will you embrace? A sin of commission or a sin of omission?

      I eagerly await your choice.

      Your friend,
      Lucifer

  34. Anomalous Acceleration by titaniam · · Score: 3, Informative

    Here's a real mystery which we still can't figure out: Anomalous Acceleration of Pioneer space probes. This one, like the dark energy problem, hints at fundamental problems with our view of the universe.

  35. OMFG! It's a galactic goatse-guy! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Christ! It took me a while, but then the realization hit me like a ton of bricks. A cavernous nebula with something that look like two hands spreading the nebula open...

  36. Dark Matter = Dyson Shell Computers? by Saeger · · Score: 1
    There's one theory that suggests that the missing mass in the universe is actually being hidden by millions of alien "Matrix-like" computing spheres surrounding their massive energy sources (i.e. invisible stars).

    I know it's an out there idea, but it's still a plausible explaination.

    --

    --
    Power to the Peaceful
    1. Re:Dark Matter = Dyson Shell Computers? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's not a theory, it's a hypothesis, and very lame one at that.

    2. Re:Dark Matter = Dyson Shell Computers? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      a plausible explanation

      No, it isn't.

    3. Re:Dark Matter = Dyson Shell Computers? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      A bit of a stretch wouldn't you say?

      Occam's Razor would favor any number of much simpler natural explainations for the dark matter mystery.

    4. Re:Dark Matter = Dyson Shell Computers? by eglamkowski · · Score: 1

      Actually, I think it's rather a cool idea. Metaphysically speaking, it would imply some greater purpose to the universe then mere existence. If some being exists outside the universe and is using it to some greater purpose (i.e. for computing power), it makes the creation of the universe trivially explainable. It's like Douglas Adams (the earth as a computer), but on a much bigger scale!

      --
      Government IS the problem.
    5. Re:Dark Matter = Dyson Shell Computers? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It fails Occam's razor...

  37. Re:Too political and off topic by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    Without treading too deeply into political areas, perhaps we should looking at why people are only making $200k a year and have to sleep in cardboard boxes on street corners while the exec's in the building next door make $200m a year!

    Never ending circle, eh?

    That seems slightly more important to me than worrying about stuff out there, just for the time being anyway.

    And while you worry about that, I'll work to get my DNA off this single-threaded planet of ours for when we get nailed by a rock or the day the Sun starts burning Helium (oh, I'm sorry, you have to study the sun now to understand why that's important). Darwin rules.

  38. Limits of our intelligence? by dolphinuser · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I recently read in Discover magazine, that some astrophysicists are openly questioning whether we have the mental prowess to actually understand many of the mysteries in the universe.

    For analogy, they talked about Apes. While it is clear that an Ape has intelligence, we do not expect them to start solving differential calculus any time soon. Their intelligence can't even conceive that such a thing exists.

    Could it be, they asked, that perhaps some "secrets" of the universe are simply beyond our ability to even know what we don't know; and like the Apes, we are unable to even conceive their solutions?

    Food for thought,

    John

    --
    The drops of water don't know themselves to be a river; and yet the river flows.
    1. Re:Limits of our intelligence? by fatboyslack · · Score: 4, Funny

      That is intriguing, and a little disturbing, but an analogy (say that quickly five times) that I like to use is me compared to my other co-workers when I was at McDonalds to put myself through Uni. And managers. For instance, we had someone come up to one of the front counter ladies and get change of two tens for a five. Twice.

      --
      Everyone thinks of changing the world, but no one thinks of changing himself. -- Leo Tolstoy
    2. Re:Limits of our intelligence? by insomaniac · · Score: 1

      Well it might be like that, but we shouldn't give up trying to get answers because we think we're not intelligent enough for it...

      For example, a few centuries ago we where sure that the earth was flat, that the earth was the middle of everything and a million of other things we found to be false and more complicated.

      And then there is the theory that we only use 10% of our brain. And it took us 'only' a few thousand years to get to use that. So maybe what looks too hard for humanity now, might be childs play for humanity a few generations later, or maybe even the next.

      And in the meantime we have enough problems for us to bang our heads against... (Like how to get the gros of the people to actually use their brain at all instead of thinking that the TV knows best...)

      --
      The way to corrupt a youth is to teach him to hold in higher value them who think alike than those who think differently
    3. Re:Limits of our intelligence? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If we can concieve of the question we can concieve the answer.

      It's the questions we don't ask that are the problem.

    4. Re:Limits of our intelligence? by kEnder242 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Although we may not be much better than apes, there is one significant difference. We can communicate, more importantly write. Without methods of recording our thoughts for future generations, we would be stuck in the dark ages.

      The printing press triggered a revolution. Benjamin Franklin was around about that time, in fact much of his success was due to writing his own newspaper. Instead of quoting the bible all the time (the only book around before then) people had ideas and could share them.

      In much the same way the Internet has caused information (and misinformation) to be even more readily accessible. If there is any limitation to the intelligence of humanity it is how well an individual can specialize in one practice in a lifetime. Doctors, Scientists, Engineers, Lawyers etc already spend a significant chunk of their lives learning enough to be productive.

      --
      my associative arrays can kick your hash - TCL
    5. Re:Limits of our intelligence? by btellier · · Score: 4, Informative

      And then there is the theory that we only use 10% of our brain.

      This "theory" has been universally debunked. From snopes:

      1) Brain imaging research techniques such as PET scans (positron emission tomography) and fMRI (functional magnetic resonance imaging) clearly show that the vast majority of the brain does not lie fallow. Indeed, although certain minor functions may use only a small part of the brain at one time, any sufficiently complex set of activities or thought patterns will indeed use many parts of the brain. Just as people don't use all of their muscle groups at one time, they also don't use all of their brain at once. For any given activity, such as eating, watching television, making love, or reading, you may use a few specific parts of your brain. Over the course of a whole day, however, just about all of the brain is used at one time or another.

      2) The myth presupposes an extreme localization of functions in the brain. If the "used" or "necessary" parts of the brain were scattered all around the organ, that would imply that much of the brain is in fact necessary. But the myth implies that the "used" part of the brain is a discrete area, and the "unused" part is like an appendix or tonsil, taking up space but essentially unnecessary. But if all those parts of the brain are unused, removal or damage to the "unused" part of the brain should be minor or unnoticed. Yet people who have suffered head trauma, a stroke, or other brain injury are frequently severely impaired. Have you ever heard a doctor say, ". . . But luckily when that bullet entered his skull, it only damaged the 90 percent of his brain he didn't use"? Of course not.

    6. Re:Limits of our intelligence? by insomaniac · · Score: 1

      Thanks for the information.

      Someone mod the parent up if only for enlightening me

      --
      The way to corrupt a youth is to teach him to hold in higher value them who think alike than those who think differently
    7. Re:Limits of our intelligence? by digidave · · Score: 2

      A human from 5000 years ago probably couldn't grasp the concept of differential calculus, either. "Intelligence" in this context is as much about learning as capacity.

      --
      The global economy is a great thing until you feel it locally.
    8. Re:Limits of our intelligence? by ciphertext · · Score: 1

      The arguments of the astrophysicists make some logical sense when you put it in this context: The finite mind cannot comprehend the infinite.

      There exists a problem in the modern model of mathematics. That problem is essentially, how to describe infinity. Where does infinity fit in the model? What is infinity? There have been numerous researchers that discuss the topic, but those that research the topic in depth haven't faired well in life. An example would be Georg Cantor. A gifted mathemetician who was seeking to explain infinity and provide a place for it in modern mathematics. Unfortunately, his search for the theory placed him in a sanitarium on numerous occasions and eventually cost him his life. The Jewish Cabalist movement seeks to explain infinity, however (according to them) only a select few Rabbis and people are able to maintain contact with reality after touching infinity. A good book to read on the mathematical quest is "The Mystery of the Aleph". This book infers rather convincingly the link between the desire to understand the infinite and the problems faced by limited (finite) capacity for thought.

      --
      To know is to have knowledge....to understand is to be enlightened.
    9. Re:Limits of our intelligence? by XSforMe · · Score: 1

      I recently read in Discover magazine, that some astrophysicists are openly questioning whether we have the mental prowess to actually understand many of the mysteries in the universe.
      Very interesting, and even probable, but I think that our current grasp of the universe is still more governed by our very limited ability to extract data from it, and the minuscule amount of it that we have.

      --
      My other OS is the MCP!
    10. Re:Limits of our intelligence? by roman_mir · · Score: 2

      I came to the same idea about a month ago when I was trying to understand why is it that I cannot simply use my mind to transfer myself in real world. If I close my eyes and imagine that I am somewhere else why doesn't it happen? If I imagine that my cellphone is lifting itself and flying through the air why doesn't it happen? If I not simply imagine the flying itself, but I imagine that I see the entire Universe and it is split into a large multidimensional matrix and everything that happens in the Universe is caused by changes through the matrix due to some simple laws of life (like physics and chemistry for example) why can't I affect what happens in this matrix by going around the laws with the power of my imagination. I think I am trying to be the Neo but I cannot.

      At that time I realized that with my limited brain power I cannot explain everything I just do not have enough brain power. And the math seems to grow ever so complicated, pretty soon it will take a life time to understand what we already know in math. Soon enough one person will not be able to understand it anymore.

      I think this has to do with how much information you need to process in order to come to a conclusion. This is why Asimov's robots make so much sence - their life span is so much greater, they have time to learn, to analyze and apply their knowledge in order to come to conclusions. Our brains are not big enough to grasp the Universe and beyond the Universe, but we will build robots that will build robots that will build robots that will eventually be able to explain things better. We are just an evolutionary step that to the next level of intelligence and data storage and analysis skills.
      I am sorry for us, we are not powerfull enough to do this by ourselves. We NEED computers and storage systems and analysis software and fast CPUs to do things for us we cannot do on our own. We are outdated. Bring in the next generation.

    11. Re:Limits of our intelligence? by meringuoid · · Score: 2
      A human from 5000 years ago probably couldn't grasp the concept of differential calculus, either. "Intelligence" in this context is as much about learning as capacity.

      It took me sixteen years to go from newborn to differential calculus. Given a competent mathematics teacher, so could a human from 5000 years ago; indeed, they could almost certainly do it in far less time than that.

      --
      Real Daleks don't climb stairs - they level the building.
    12. Re:Limits of our intelligence? by meringuoid · · Score: 2
      Could it be, they asked, that perhaps some "secrets" of the universe are simply beyond our ability to even know what we don't know; and like the Apes, we are unable to even conceive their solutions?

      Maybe. Not necessarily a problem; research in biotechnology and cybernetics ought to help there. Hopefully the people of five centuries hence will view us as we view chimpanzees.

      Also, a chimp couldn't even frame the question 'what is the gradient of the curve f(x) at the point x?' If we can ask the question, that's a good sign, and chances are we'll get some way towards an answer. If we can't even frame the question, then we never even know there's something we've missed, and so we won't mind.

      --
      Real Daleks don't climb stairs - they level the building.
    13. Re:Limits of our intelligence? by Cyno · · Score: 2

      I believe it is also nurtured by environment. If we put the average American into an environment that was more educational and engaging, they would become more intelligent than they were because of the stimulation. Right now our goal has been to dumb down our technology and make it easy to use. I don't know what effect this will have on society.

      I agree that it is extremely important that all humans are taught the concepts of rates of change. If we apply differential calculus and computer networks to business we get efficiency and virtual automation (1 human does the work of 100..)

      But can the average person understand or remember differential calculus? Probably not the way we teach things today. Our educational system leaves much to be desired. This stuff has to be fun to learn instead of a chore and everyone should be encouraged to attend/participate.

      I guess all I'm saying is education is not encouraged. Just the basic skills required for labor. This is so 20th century. Hope it doesn't take us another 5000 years to finally grow a brain.

    14. Re:Limits of our intelligence? by Christopher+Thomas · · Score: 2
      I recently read in Discover magazine, that some astrophysicists are openly questioning whether we have the mental prowess to actually understand many of the mysteries in the universe.

      For analogy, they talked about Apes. While it is clear that an Ape has intelligence, we do not expect them to start solving differential calculus any time soon. Their intelligence can't even conceive that such a thing exists.


      While this is an interesting idea, I'm not worrying about it for two reasons:
      • We've repeatedly demonstrated the ability to augment our own intelligence

        Writing does this by increasing the amount of state information we can deal with for a given problem (I can't multiply 100-digit numbers in my head, but I can on paper). Calculating machines - from the abacus on up - do this by giving us "co-processors" to handle tasks that our brains are not suited for. If there's a good argument for this augmentation having a fundamental limit, I haven't heard it yet.

      • If we don't understand it, something we build might.

        If we postulate that we can build an artificial intelligence, and postulate further that we can build artificial intelligences that are smarter than we are, either that intelligence or one of its descendants may be able to grasp whatever arbitrarily complex model truly represents reality, if it can be grasped at all.
        The same argument applies if we genetically engineer creatures smarter than non-modified humans.

      In summary, I think either we or our creations will likely be smart enough to understand the universe, if anything can.
    15. Re:Limits of our intelligence? by PurpleBob · · Score: 2

      If the things you're saying come from that book, I will bet you that the book was not written by a mathematician.

      What is it about infinity that you're suggesting modern mathematics can't describe? There are ordinal numbers for naming different kinds of infinity. There's the countable/uncountable classification of infinite sets. There's the Continnuum Hypothesis, which describes the size of the set of real numbers, which incidentally can never be proven one way or the other. (This doesn't make it some big terrible insanity-inducing mystery; it means that you can assume it to be true or false, whichever way is convenient, as an axiom.)

      There are of course many unknown results dealing with infinity, as there are in any area of math. There's nothing that indicates you have to be a rabbi to make any progress in these areas, though.

      You give Cantor as your sole example of a mathematician who studied infinity and "didn't fare well". Yes, Cantor studied infinity, and yes, he went insane. But what proof do you have that one caused the other?

      --
      Win dain a lotica, en vai tu ri silota
    16. Re:Limits of our intelligence? by Idarubicin · · Score: 2
      The printing press triggered a revolution. Benjamin Franklin was around about that time, in fact much of his success was due to writing his own newspaper. Instead of quoting the bible all the time (the only book around before then) people had ideas and could share them.

      Gutenberg's movable-type press was developed around 1440; the first edition of the Gutenberg Bible was in print by 1456. More than a thousand print shops were spread across Europe by 1500.

      Not to knock Ben; he was a pretty sharp guy, and wrote some good stuff (not-so-good stuff, too, but hey--we all have off days.) Nevertheless, he lived in the eighteenth century, and most of his notable work came more than three centuries after the Gutenberg press. For that matter, social and scientific advances happened quite often well before the printing press. Athenian democracy appeared more than two thousand years ago but had more direct participation than any modern government. It enfranchised the same portion of its people as the United States government of Franklin's day. (Only adult males could vote; no women or slaves.)

      New techniques for rapid communication do indeed make revolution easier to bring about, but the absence of 'modern' communcation tools by no means preclude its occurrence, nor necessarily lead to the social or scientific stagnation of a society.

      --
      ~Idarubicin
  39. Karma Time by mraymer · · Score: 2, Interesting
    I think I'm already at the cap, but every time slashdot posts and astronomy article I get modded up... Here we go!

    1) Dark Energy: Does anyone else believe that perhaps dark energy simply does not exist, and our laws of physics and what-not are just totally untrue anywhere except on Earth?

    2)Water on Mars: My vote is yes. There is ice on Mars. Some parts of Mars can get up to 80F. If there was ice in such a place, it would be in liquid form. AKA water. :)

    3)The Murky, Mediocre Middle of the Milky Way: Yeah, well, the center of the galaxy is a wee bit far away. Perhaps it would be easier to figure out if we went there. Problem is, even if we could travel as fast or faster than light, BILLIONS of years would pass on Earth in less than a year's time on the starship.

    4)The Origin of Life: Oh, so this is up to astronomers to solve now? Like they don't have enough to do... ;)

    5)Lunar Secrets: The moon is great. We can learn things from it that we probably don't even know we can learn from it. Yet we haven't been back since the 70s... Isn't that depressing?

    6)Are We Alone: No. I would tell you more, but I'd have to kill you. But no. We are not alone.

    7)The Enigmatic Sun: Let's build a Dyson's sphere around the sun. Not like the one in TNG, a solid one is not really possible to make. It's more like a lot of somewhat connected space stations orbiting a star.

    8)Age of the Universe: Age of the universe would imply that time exists. There are some that believe space-time is really just space, and that time is only something humans perceive.

    9)Missing Planets: Well the, the "standard model" is not exactly the most accurate one, now is it? ;)

    10)Can We Survive 2003: If you think that the risk of being hit is low, glace at the moon sometime. The Earth wouldn't look much different without any forms of erosion to cover up the scars.

    --

    "To confine our attention to terrestrial matters would be to limit the human spirit." -Stephen Hawking

    1. Re:Karma Time by entrager · · Score: 1

      I'm not quite at the cap, and every time slashdot posts and astronomy article I get modded up...
      Here we go!

      In response to your post:

      1) Dark Energy: Agreed, however I think it's more likely that some unexplained phenomena is causing the acceleration of our universes expansion. I think it's folly to create a "dark energy" to explain this though. Sounds too similar to the "eather" created to explain astronomical phenomena before we knew better. My current favorite is explained using string theory, the universe is accelerating because the 3 dimensions that make it up are still expanding.

      2)Water on Mars: Couldn't agree more. Or add anything for that matter.

      3)The Murky, Mediocre Middle of the Milky Way: Theoretically, it's not possible to travel as fast or faster than light. Given what we know about relativity, an INFINITE amount of time would pass on Earth if you managed to somehow reach light speed. It's simply not possible (if relativity is correct of course). However, that excludes the possiblity of alternate forms of travel, such as wormholes (which exist, in theory, but are very unstable).

      4)The Origin of Life: Yeah! Last time I checked this was up to biologists and Jerry Falwell!

      5)Lunar Secrets: Isn't that depressing? No... it costs too much to go there. Or at least that's what NASA wants us to think.

      6)Are We Alone: Of course we aren't alone, what kind of question is this?

      7)The Enigmatic Sun: I still don't understand why everyone is so concerned about how the Sun works. Why is this important? Can someone shed some light?

      8)Age of the Universe: I argue that until we know "the truth" about physics, we will NEVER be able to answer this question accurately.

      9)Missing Planets: Computer simulations show that Neptune and Uranus shouldn't be there... I think someone needs to recognize the obvious here: the simulations are WRONG! Does everyone honestly believe that we know enough details about our system's formation to create an accurate simulation? We can't even accurately calculate the effects of friction on a car's tire (although we are close).

      10)Can We Survive 2003: The Earth wouldn't look much different without any forms of erosion to cover up the scars. Um... yes it would. The atmosphere burns up almost all incoming debris, whereas the moon has no atmosphere so everything creates a crater on the surface. Tiny rocks that create shooting stars for us create craters that are several meters across on the moon.

    2. Re:Karma Time by mraymer · · Score: 2
      WOOPS! Can't believe I forgot about the Earth's atmosphere. My blood should boil over that one... ;)

      Still, there'd be a lot more evidence of impacts than there is now.

      Also, we care about the sun because of the amount of energy it generates. It's a wee bit more than, say, the 300W power supply allowing me to post this reply... ;)

      --

      "To confine our attention to terrestrial matters would be to limit the human spirit." -Stephen Hawking

    3. Re:Karma Time by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Doesn't the low atmospheric pressure of Mars
      prevent water from taking liquid form, i.e.
      wouldn't it just go from ice to steam?

    4. Re:Karma Time by mraymer · · Score: 2

      This is a HIGHLY disputed theory. I think the only way we'll know for sure is to take a glass of water to Mars. ;) Even if the pressure does not allow liquid at the surface, liquid water could exist BELOW the surface.

      --

      "To confine our attention to terrestrial matters would be to limit the human spirit." -Stephen Hawking

    5. Re:Karma Time by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      I don't see why you are modded up, since..
      2)Water on Mars: My vote is yes. There is ice on Mars. Some parts of Mars can get up to 80F. If there was ice in such a place, it would be in liquid form. AKA water. :)
      .. it would vaporize because there is not enough pressure in the atmosphere.
    6. Re:Karma Time by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ouch! you could benefit from a basic astronomy class. And some English and critical thinkng courses. In fact, you probably oughta go to college quick, before you look even stupider.

      1) Of course the laws of physics only apply "on Earth." Remember when we sent astronauts to the moon and gravity actually worked backwards! That was great! And light moved so slow that Neal Armstrong was actually able to outrun it. That too was cool.

      2) Water vaporizes at low pressure. This is not "disputed," you retard, and no one has to take a glass of water to Mars to find out. We can, and have, duplicated pressure at or near Mars levels in the lab.

      5) "The moon is great"? Wow! Insightful! Interesting! Moronic!

      10) Yes, let's look at the moon. In fact, let's look at any other satellite in the solar system that isn't too close to Jupiter. Wow! That's a lot of craters! So, can you tell me when most of that cratering occurred? And what the current rate is? I thought not. Why are you even talking?

      The rest of your diarrheal posty isn't worth even reading, much less picking apart. You could give classes on sloppy thinking and jokes that aren't clever or funny.

      go to hell.

    7. Re:Karma Time by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful
      I think I'm already at the cap, but every time slashdot posts and astronomy article I get modded up... Here we go!
      That's surprising, considering you're an idiot.
      1) Dark Energy: Does anyone else believe that perhaps dark energy simply does not exist, and our laws of physics and what-not are just totally untrue anywhere except on Earth?
      Why would we believe this? We see stellar processes going on in stars and galaxies thousands or millions of light-years away, whose behavior exactly conforms to known laws of physics.
      2)Water on Mars: My vote is yes. There is ice on Mars. Some parts of Mars can get up to 80F. If there was ice in such a place, it would be in liquid form. AKA water. :)
      As others mentioned, the atmospheric pressure is too low for liquid water to exist on the surface. You can say it's "disputed," except it's not -- in an atmosphere at that low pressure, water will be a gas, not a liquid.
      3)The Murky, Mediocre Middle of the Milky Way: Yeah, well, the center of the galaxy is a wee bit far away. Perhaps it would be easier to figure out if we went there. Problem is, even if we could travel as fast or faster than light, BILLIONS of years would pass on Earth in less than a year's time on the starship.
      Billions of years? The Milky Way is about 100,000 light years in diameter -- which means about 30,000 light years from here to the center. If you had a ship traveling at 99.999...% of the speed of light, no more than slightly over 30,000 years would pass between when you left Earth and when you reached the center of the galaxy, even if it seemed like a single year on the ship.
      4)The Origin of Life: Oh, so this is up to astronomers to solve now? Like they don't have enough to do... ;)
      There are quite a number of theories positing that the original fragments of life (self-replicating organic molecules) were deposited on earth by asteroids, rather than developing here independently. So, yes, astronomers do have something to say about it.
      5)Lunar Secrets: The moon is great. We can learn things from it that we probably don't even know we can learn from it. Yet we haven't been back since the 70s... Isn't that depressing?
      Yes. Why do blindingly obvious observations that have been made a thousand times before deserve to get modded up, exactly?
      6)Are We Alone: No. I would tell you more, but I'd have to kill you. But no. We are not alone.
      We are right now. Whether we'll remain alone...
      7)The Enigmatic Sun: Let's build a Dyson's sphere around the sun. Not like the one in TNG, a solid one is not really possible to make. It's more like a lot of somewhat connected space stations orbiting a star.
      Yeah, that's feasible given our current technology. No, wait, it's not.
      8)Age of the Universe: Age of the universe would imply that time exists. There are some that believe space-time is really just space, and that time is only something humans perceive.
      "Age" is just another word for "length" when talking about the fourth dimension (time). We use it because it's convenient -- humans universally perceive the passage of time, and we developed a vocabulary for talking about it long before we developed theories of spacetime. You can be a semantic jackass all you want, but it just makes you look stupid.
      9)Missing Planets: Well the, the "standard model" is not exactly the most accurate one, now is it? ;)
      Well, chalk this up for a +1: Insightful.
      10)Can We Survive 2003: If you think that the risk of being hit is low, glace at the moon sometime. The Earth wouldn't look much different without any forms of erosion to cover up the scars.
      Others have already mentioned the Earth's atmosphere, so I'll forgo it.
    8. Re:Karma Time by mraymer · · Score: 2

      It's interesting how so far several people have pointed out errors in my post, and only one, entrager, has done so in a tactful manner. As for everyone else: My post was rushed because I wanted to get it in before the article dropped off the page. Please have a little mercy on me. I don't sit in front of my computer with an astronomy book in my hand. Well, not usually, anyway. ;)

      --

      "To confine our attention to terrestrial matters would be to limit the human spirit." -Stephen Hawking

    9. Re:Karma Time by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Goddamn, you fucking shitass!

      If you want people to be polite to you, start out by NOT being a sanctimonius prick!

      You wanted to get your post done in a hurry? You are what's wrong with slashdot today.

      I don't give a shti if you don't keep an astronomy book next to you at the computer. You obviously have an internet connection; use it!

    10. Re:Karma Time by Luyseyal · · Score: 2
      1) Dark Energy: Does anyone else believe that perhaps dark energy simply does not exist, and our laws of physics and what-not are just totally untrue anywhere except on Earth?

      Sorta. It's definitely a thought experiment I've considered, if not a first order belief. Part of the problem of being localized in spacetime is that you have to extrapolate based on what you know, what radiation you receive, etc... it's a simple filtration process (or heuristic) that humans use every day in dealing with the world -- i.e., that you extrapolate universals from less than universal data.

      For example, I often think to myself "Why doesn't the universe just poof out of existence? If not now, why couldn't it happen in the future? After all, past performance is no guaranty of future success." The conclusion, borrowing a useful heuristic of the philosophy of science, seems to be that "lacking evidence to the contrary, go with what you do know." Thus, we extrapolate from our local data. When new data arrives, you revise.

      For me, a more pressing issue is quantum-mathematical reductionism and its influence on artificial intelligence research. How the hell do you define "red" in a purely logical/mathematical system? It's a meatspace interpretation of wavelength... I just don't see how an AI could ever understand red qua red. Oh sure, sensors can detect the wavelength of red, but could an AI actually see red as I see it? That's the crux of the issue and I'm concerned that mathematical/logical systems will not be able to model such things.

      /dev/random
      -l

      --
      Help cure AIDS, cancer, and more. Donate your unused computer time to worldcommunitygrid.org. Join Team Slashdot!
    11. Re:Karma Time by mraymer · · Score: 2
      Goddamn, you fucking shitass! If you want people to be polite to you, start out by NOT being a sanctimonius prick! You wanted to get your post done in a hurry? You are what's wrong with slashdot today. I don't give a shti if you don't keep an astronomy book next to you at the computer. You obviously have an internet connection; use it!

      Wow, you've given me a great string of material here... let's see... First of all, while my ass may be full of shit, I don't think that's a very uncommon thing. Or is "Goddamn, you fucking shitass" a title to a new Eminem song? Second, yes, I do have Internet connection... aren't you smart? But I could have been posting from a school, an office, a library... so it's silly to assume that I have unlimited access to google and the like. Lastly, in nearly all of my posts I am polite... it's the people that are not [ahem] that ruin slashdot for all of us. Thanks! :)

      --

      "To confine our attention to terrestrial matters would be to limit the human spirit." -Stephen Hawking

    12. Re:Karma Time by Zathrus · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Dark Energy: Does anyone else believe that perhaps dark energy simply does not exist, and our laws of physics and what-not are just totally untrue anywhere except on Earth?

      Uh... right. Which is why stellar processes conform to known laws of physics. Copernicus, Gallileo, Newton, et. al. didn't invent basic orbital mechanics from watching things on Earth.

      The inaccuracies we're finding are largely in the tiny percentages, although apparantly just large enough to not be thrown away as statistical error. The universe accelerating bit is, to my knowledge, still controversial.

      Water on Mars: My vote is yes. There is ice on Mars. Some parts of Mars can get up to 80F. If there was ice in such a place, it would be in liquid form. AKA water

      As has been pointed out repeatedly, you fail to take vapor pressure into account. If there is liquid water on Mars, it's certainly nowhere near the surface and hasn't been for eons.

      even if we could travel as fast or faster than light, BILLIONS of years would pass on Earth in less than a year's time on the starship

      No it wouldn't. If you manage to go at nearly light speed then yes, longer periods of time pass outside than inside, but it still won't be more than ~30,000 years (as one poster pointed out). If you go FTL then your logic is completely incorrect -- current tachyon theory (last I heard) was that you'd actually move backwards in time relative to an outside observer. You'd literally get there before you left. Of course, to the observer you'd appear at some point after you left, because the light is still moving at, yup, light speed.

      Of course, other theoretical space-time constructs like wormholes would allow instantaneous travel.

      Let's build a Dyson's sphere around the sun

      Before you know exactly how a stellar system works? That's a bad idea. Tremendously bad. Oh, and there's no theoretical reason that a solid Dyson sphere wouldn't be possible, but then again we don't know enough theory to actually do it.

      Age of the universe would imply that time exists. There are some that believe space-time is really just space, and that time is only something humans perceive

      Yes, and there are some that believe that mankind is descended from aliens who visited in 1973 on the top of a volcano in France.

      Regardless of whether space-time exists as a cohesive whole or if time and space are independant dimensions, we are inherently limited by how we view them. And we have loads of actual data to back up our theories.

      Well the, the "standard model" is not exactly the most accurate one, now is it?

      Actually, yes it is. That doesn't mean it's the final model or entirely correct. Which is why there are always theories about how to further refine it.

      If you think that the risk of being hit is low, glace at the moon sometime

      And when was the last significant lunar impact? Heck, the last significant impact in our solar system was Shoemaker-Levy, and that was a one-in-a-million occurrence. The odds of something hitting Earth is even lower, since we have gas giants like Jupiter and Saturn sweeping the outer solar system of most large asteroids. Even the space.com article admits it's mostly media hype.

      Oh, and as for everyone slamming on you - it's because a post full of factual errors got modded up. Welcome to slashdot. The only reason you found entrager's post "tactful" was because it was largely a "me too" post that was equally full of errors.

    13. Re:Karma Time by Captain+Nitpick · · Score: 1
      This is a HIGHLY disputed theory.

      What's to dispute? The properties of water are well-known. All you need is the Martian atmospheric pressure and a full set of steam tables.

      --
      But then again, I could be wrong.
    14. Re:Karma Time by mraymer · · Score: 2
      Oh, and as for everyone slamming on you - it's because a post full of factual errors got modded up. Welcome to slashdot. The only reason you found entrager's post "tactful" was because it was largely a "me too" post that was equally full of errors.

      This isn't true at all... I found your post to be very polite as well, and in fact added you to my friends list. I mean, at least you didn't call me a "goddamn shitass" or the like.

      Back on topic... I did mean underground about the Mars water thing. But I'm more upset about my Earth's atmosphere mistake. It's just one of those things I don't really notice unless it's gone. ;)

      --

      "To confine our attention to terrestrial matters would be to limit the human spirit." -Stephen Hawking

    15. Re:Karma Time by mraymer · · Score: 2
      What's to dispute? The properties of water are well-known. All you need is the Martian atmospheric pressure and a full set of steam tables.

      Well, I don't think there is just one magical number for the pressure... I mean, at least here on Earth, water boils at different temperatures due to the pressure being lower at higher altitudes... It's safe to assume Mars is similar, and that certain isolated parts of the planet my have more air pressure than others.

      From all these replies I'm getting about this one water comment, it seems to me that people almost don't want water to be on Mars... heh. Why give up hope? We really know so very little about the planet. We don't even know everything about the one we're on...

      --

      "To confine our attention to terrestrial matters would be to limit the human spirit." -Stephen Hawking

    16. Re:Karma Time by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      But I could have been posting from a school, an office, a library... so it's silly to assume that I have unlimited access to google and the like.


      Right. You have access to Slashdot but not Google. Try again.


      Lastly, in nearly all of my posts I am polite...


      Yeah, I've seen your "politeness". Everyone is treating you like a sanctimonious, little know-it-all because you act like one when you talk out of your ass. Buy an astronomy text and grow up, you little prick.

  40. No Kidding by sharkey · · Score: 3, Funny

    Dark Energy - Nobody knows what the heck it is, but it is officially repulsive.

    Well, it IS three-eyed alien poop. Of course it's repulsive.

    --

    --
    "Outlook not so good." That magic 8-ball knows everything! I'll ask about Exchange Server next.
    1. Re:No Kidding by WeeLad · · Score: 1
      Does that mean the poop has three eyes, or the alien?

      --
      Seriously, Don't take anything I say seriously.
  41. Just to pick one out of that mess of gobbledygook by FuzzyDaddy · · Score: 2
    By technologically enhancing such vacuum stress within these nuclei, via a retuning of Maxwell's "scalar potentials," the normal radioactive breakdown process is accelerated -- literally billions of times

    OK, quiz time, gumbysworld. What fields are determined by Maxwell's scalar and vector potentials? What are the MKS units of these potentials? What are the units of the fields? What other forces are involved in radioactive decay?

    --
    It's not wasting time, I'm educating myself.
  42. Did they forget about 'mystery force'? by frane · · Score: 2, Interesting

    The list definitely included some good topics, but the mystery that I found most interesting in 2002 is the 'mystery force' that caused course deflections in the Pioneer and Voyager spacecraft. Here there is hard evidence that something is acting differently or in addition to what we expect (i.e. gravity, additional planet, etc.), but NASA is unable to explain it.
    See this story from last May.

    1. Re:Did they forget about 'mystery force'? by MoreDruid · · Score: 1

      'mystery force' it's the little green men, didn't you know that?
      but NASA is unable to explain it. What do _they_ know? It's not that they've been to the moon or something [insert favorite conspiracy theory here]

      --
      The best weapon of a dictatorship is secrecy, but the best weapon of a democracy should be the weapon of openness.
  43. If we really wanted to, we could *know* easily. by io333 · · Score: 5, Interesting

    The greatest question of all time is: "Are we alone?"

    That's really the other ultimate goal of space exploration, isn't it? (The first goal is to find us a new place to live after the earth is used up).

    But there is such a simple way to answer the question: Take all the cash we are using on rediculous stuff like the ISS and:

    BUILD A GIANT TELESCOPE IN SPACE OR ON THE DARK SIDE OF THE MOON.

    And I mean BIG.

    One so Hugeomegagigantic that it can actually SEE the surface of extra solar earth sized planets in detail to pick out cities, roads, and lights.

    And then, if we saw with our own eyes that there was another civilization -- imagine the space program we'd start to have then. ...and yes I know the dark side of the moon isn't always dark, but we'd want to cut down on earthshine too probably.

    1. Re:If we really wanted to, we could *know* easily. by io333 · · Score: 2

      ...and now that I think about it:

      Any folks within a hundred light years that have the wherewithall to make their own bit telescope -- they already know about us.

      Maybe we need to get on this pretty quick!

    2. Re:If we really wanted to, we could *know* easily. by filmsmith · · Score: 1

      Let's try to not ignore the ramifications something like this would have on the stability of the moon's orbit and, thus, our ocean's tides.

    3. Re:If we really wanted to, we could *know* easily. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny
      That's really the other ultimate goal of space exploration, isn't it?
      Hardly. If the answer is No, then it might be the "ultimate" goal, but if we find the answer to be Yes, then there's nothing ultimate about it all. There will be follow-up questions like
      • How can we kill them? Do they taste good?
      • How can we have sex with them? Do they taste good?
      • How can we trade with them? Do they have anything that tastes good?
      • How can we censor communications with them and tax all trade and make sure no IP violations are happening?
    4. Re:If we really wanted to, we could *know* easily. by btellier · · Score: 2

      No, the first question, as with all innovation, will be: Do they possess any technology that will enable us to jack off more efficiently?

    5. Re:If we really wanted to, we could *know* easily. by backword · · Score: 1

      >The first goal is to find us a new place to live after the earth is used up.
      As we don't know if there is anywhere we could live, and getting there would be extremely difficult, the first goal ought to be not using up the earth. It's not a done deed, yet.
      >One so Hugeomegagigantic that it can actually SEE the surface of extra solar earth sized planets in detail to pick out cities, roads, and lights.
      Ah, have you ANY idea how far off other stars are?

    6. Re:If we really wanted to, we could *know* easily. by io333 · · Score: 2

      Actually, I *do* know how far away the stars really are. But we CAN make such a telescope, it is just a matter of being willing to do it, to the exclusion of other things. Things like the ISS, or nuclear weapons. If we didn't need nukes and stealth tech, we'd have funds available for a megascope in short order.

      I suppose one of the major problems we'll need to overcome before we'll ever be able to reach the stars is whether we, as a human race, will ever be able to advance far enough culturally that we don't have to protect ourselves from each other.

    7. Re:If we really wanted to, we could *know* easily. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think you missed this line:

      How can we have sex with them? Do they taste good?

      Tech-aided more efficient jack-offs are a form of sex...

  44. Re:Just to pick one out of that mess of gobbledygo by rppp01 · · Score: 0, Flamebait

    Ohh! Oooh! Me me!

    What fields? Well, corn fields, of course!

    MKS units of these potentials? Little yellow ones!

    Units of the fields? Well, corn comes by the cobb.

    What other forces are involved in radioactive decay? Why radioactive maggots and worms. I hate them. That's why they use radioactive pesticides to kill them. :-)

    --
    They stuck me in an institution, said it was the only solution, to...protect me from the enemy, myself
  45. Defrag ? by stud9920 · · Score: 2

    No, he just has a memleak and needs to free() the malloc()s

  46. A Certain Shade Of Green by StormcallerESC · · Score: 1

    They never agreed on the colour of the universe, either. Is the cosmic spectrum turquoise? Or is it beige? These guys reckon they know, but I think this is another mystery - albeit a lot less important - that various groups will be disproving eachother over for a while.

    --
    - Stormcaller
    http://www.stormcaller.net
  47. Origin of life answered by 3ryon · · Score: 4, Informative
    I also thought this question was unanswerable, but the book I'm reading at the moment goes a long way to explaining how you can get life from non-life (and you have to understand that I am a skeptical thinker). There is no book I would more highly recommend to everyone in the audience: The Selfish Gene by Richard Dawkins.

    If I had the ability to mod my own comments I would burn all 50 points in the hope that just one more person would read this book.

    1. Re:Origin of life answered by ciphertext · · Score: 1

      You know, The Mystery of the Aleph is pretty good. If you like

      --
      To know is to have knowledge....to understand is to be enlightened.
    2. Re:Origin of life answered by SpinyNorman · · Score: 1

      You really want to read Stuart Kauffman's "At home in the universe" to understand the inevitability of the rise of complexity/life in the right circumstances.

    3. Re:Origin of life answered by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, you got your wish, based on your comments (And those who reviewed at at Amazon.com) I ordered this book. Looks like a worthwhile read, thanks in advance.

    4. Re:Origin of life answered by Camel+Pilot · · Score: 2

      And when you get done with Dawkins go read Gould's refutations of Dawkins - just as a counter balance.

  48. How could they forget ... by burgburgburg · · Score: 2

    "What does God need with a Starship?"

    1. Re:How could they forget ... by darkpixel2k · · Score: 1

      What about the answer to the question of Life, the Universe, and Everything?

      (The Guide)

      --
      There's no place like ::1 (I've completed my transition to IPv6)
  49. hrm... by c0bw3b · · Score: 1

    I would comment on this story, but it was obscured from my vision by a thick haze of pop-ups and flash ads. Oh well, I guess it can wait until I get home.

    --
    ||:|::
  50. Isn't that what ... by burgburgburg · · Score: 2

    the Langoliers are for? Aren't they supposed to eat all that stuff up? Including Balki?

  51. If it would just consider eating better ... by burgburgburg · · Score: 2

    then maybe it wouldn't be expanding at an ever increasing rate. And some exercise wouldn't hurt either.

  52. For about 30 years I have studied the expanding un by hottoh · · Score: 1

    In the last two or three I have not followed very closely.

    OK, are these guys making this stuff up? The discovery that the universe is expanding is a given. Just now someone put it together that it is expanding at an accelerating rate?

    Come on! This story gives me doubt.

  53. Can we survive 2003? by ramirez · · Score: 1

    If being struck by a large astroid is such a great concern then maybe we should work at deflecting/destroying smaller ones. Maybe we could learn some lessons while the stakes are relatively low?

  54. Re:Just to pick one out of that mess of gobbledygo by FuzzyDaddy · · Score: 1
    Flamebait? I thought it was funny. And you even put a little :-) at the end.

    --
    It's not wasting time, I'm educating myself.
  55. Uranus by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    --But out where Neptune and Uranus roam, there would never have been enough hard material for this to work.--

    Hard material will make Uranus roam out to Neptune alright.

  56. CowboyNeal A true space mystery by infonography · · Score: 1

    When they explain that one I will be satisfied. All other mysterys pale, except maybe the one about CmdrTaco, like why we ever see him post before 5pm est?

    --
    Sorry about the writing. Robot fingers, you know? Cliff Steele in DOOM PATROL #23
  57. "Mistuh Daily Radar, he dead." by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I'm sorry, I just -- I think I'm over those feelings, and it hits me all over again.

    The simplest act, like going to a web site and realizing that I'll have to load ten Java ads and forty banners just to read two double-spaced pages worth of text. Bang, I'm back at the funeral throwing dirt on Daily Radar's coffin.

    I know it's silly. I'll be okay in a minute ... hold me?

  58. Age of the universe by loconet · · Score: 2

    "The age of the universe has been put at 12 billion to 15 billion years for some time now, but every few months a revision or refinement is announced. Hubble Telescope observations yielded in April an estimate of 13-14 billion years."

    So.. what was there before? just black? , nothing? Think about it.

    --
    [alk]
    1. Re:Age of the universe by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There was no "before".
      It's like saying "yeah, so the Universe is not infinite; what's beyond the edges?"

  59. You missed the point. by aussersterne · · Score: 5, Insightful

    So you're saying that you believe God didn't create the universe, and instead created a set of rules that caused it to be created? Isn't that the same as creating it, albeit indirectly? You're not making any sense, sir.

    You've missed the point entirely.

    The poster is not saying that God did not create the universe. He is saying that "Perhaps God did create the universe, and Physics is how he chose to do it!"

    There remain a large number of rabid creationists who say "The Physicists are all blasphemous buffoons! GOD created the universe, not some pile of gravity and chemicals and suns!"

    The poster is trying to say that given the complexity of a universe that many people assert that God has created, it would not be uncharacteristic of such a God if he were to create the universe not by waving a magic God-Wand, but rather by creating a set of simple, elegant physical laws (i.e. Physics) by which his universe, the planets, and life could arise. This would not, as the rabid creationists seem to think, defile God in any way; rather, it supposes that God is of such awesome intelligence that he foresaw a way to create laws of the universe which would not only lead to the creation of life, but whose selfsame boundaries would also govern such life through the end of time.

    It is not an argument against God; it is an argument that God has better taste than to do showy wave-of-the-hand parlor tricks when creating life, the universe, and everything.

    If there is a view of "scientific creationism" that I can accept, this is it.

    --
    STOP . AMERICA . NOW
    1. Re:You missed the point. by Unordained · · Score: 1

      i went to a talk given at a local church a few months ago on creationism. it was disturbing -- their motto was "teaching disciples to trust the bible's history for its accuracy, so that they will trust the bible's promise for their destiny" ... the basic problem was that these people so closely tied literal interpretation of biblical texts to their understanding of it as a whole that they could not deviate from it one bit, or the rest would fall apart too. you simply could not tell them that genesis might have been an abridged, simplified, or cliff's-notes version of what happened, or their entire faith would simply collapse. (this was demonstrated when he explained that evolution would imply the lack of a literal adam and eve, thus nullifying the whole story of sin.)

      even if you get away from literal interpretation, you still wind up with the calvinist problem -- so maybe god did create the universe, and we are an emergent property. either that means nothing, and god didn't really foresee us any more than he did the newly discovered jovian moon, or he did plan it -- and planning that far ahead means planning a lot of other things too. intelligent-design proponents stress how finely tuned the universe had to be. they do so to such a degree that -not- finding the universe predestined becomes difficult. saying that god didn't plan us means that the christ story becomes odd -- why would god care about just one planet? or all planets? or ... all species? it opens up far more doors than it closes. and if you say god did plan it all ... well, you really didn't have a choice -- god meant for you to have acne and get beat up in school as a kid. yup. and your dog dying? god did that. on purpose.

      and yes -- since everybody else was on vacation, -somebody- had to fill in for the trolls.

    2. Re:You missed the point. by aussersterne · · Score: 2

      Entirely spot on. I myself am an atheist. However, I don't mind carrying on a conversation with a devout person whose interpretation of Genesis is not necessarily literal and who makes room in his life (and conception of God) for Physics, Chemistry, Biology, Anthropology et. al.

      On the other hand, there is no talking to the rather stupid rabid creationists and Biblical literalists out there who ironically continue to use computers, the Internet, television and radio to spread the message that all modern science, and indeed the scientific method itself, is little more than a lie purveyed by servants of "darkness."

      I always wonder where such people have received their education. Somewhere in the rural midwest of the US, no doubt, where exist those fabled schools which have banned instruction about natural selection, yet which at the same time dedicate hours to evangelical Bible study...

      --
      STOP . AMERICA . NOW
    3. Re:You missed the point. by Unordained · · Score: 1

      you just reminded me of a gem which i left out of my previous post ... from that night (i took very careful notes on my cassiopeia, under the watchful eye of many a little old lady) ...

      "Because science self-corrects, scientists can't know everything about everything [...] thus, can they know anything about anything? But God knows all."

      The guy also went to a lot of trouble to prove that dinosaurs existed five hundred years ago and were hunted by northern europeans to extinction. The T-Rex couldn't go any faster than three miles an hour, and would fall over if he tried to go any faster, killing himself. He also had teeth that would fall out if he tried to bring down his own prey, but worked fine for scavanging. Why all this? Well, partially because of Romans 5:12 "Therefore just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin..." and Corithians 15:21 "For since by man came death, by Man came life and the resurrection from dead ..." (pardon me if i misquote, this is from my notes, not a current translation.) Thus, death didn't exist before sin. Understand -- the man believes that although animals cam first, none of them ate. Not for several days. They just went without, unless they were non-carnivore. Thus ... either God gave them sharp pointy teeth and the instinct to kill prey out of spite (watch them mope around, not killing anything) or he planned that sin would happen, and would -then- let these poor creatures loose on each other. We couldn't decide which was funnier.

      [offtopic] I'm myself agnostic, rather than atheist. I don't believe I have the means of telling if there is or is not a god of any sort. Not that it matters much -- even a simple theist (without selecting a faith) doesn't do much but believe in a god, somewhere, somehow. Pray? Without selecting a specific god, you don't have history, therefore you hardly have any 'properties' of the god ... so you can't tell what he/she is all about, or what good it may do to pray. The list goes on. But still -- agnostic, not atheist. And I went to a southern-baptist university, where the science class was more about proving that science doesn't have all the answers (that the bible scholars do) than about showing what answers it has found (fairly reliably.) [/offtopic]

      G'day!

  60. How about the planets? by spazoid12 · · Score: 1

    How about this question of space: are there any planets outside our solar system?

    When I was a kid everything I learned in school took it for granted that of course there are. It wasn't until I was probably in highschool or maybe college that I learned for myself that none had actually been found. Yet another one of the times that I felt ripped off by weak teaching.

    In recent few years there have been all kinds of stories of wobbles and such, but to date...still no planets!

    Personally, I figure there are many planets out there, sure. But it would be nice if teachers mentioned the complete lack of actual knowledge, or evidence, when mindlessly repeating random words out of random books to a classroom full of glazed young'ins.

    In fact, this question of the existence of planets outside our solar system... might be a good question to ask... long before any ridiculous speculation on the existence of aliens.

    Personally, I figure there are no aliens out there. Unless you count the Kennedys.

    1. Re:How about the planets? by freeweed · · Score: 2

      I think the current count of confirmed extra-solar planets (outside our solar system) is in the dozens, if not hundreds.

      This has been all over the news in recent years, both tech news and general purpose joe six-pack reporting. Where've you been?

      --
      Endless arguments over trivial contradictions in books written by ignorant savages to explain thunder in the dark.
    2. Re:How about the planets? by spazoid12 · · Score: 1

      Where've I been? Here...wondering where the real news is. Not the crackpot reporting of "wobbles".

      Seriously, have you even read any of these so-called reports? It's a total joke. But I suppose once the science exits its infancy stage it'll be more interesting.

      And so, the confirmed current count is still a whopping zero. Feel free to discuss anything you know something about. Thx.

    3. Re:How about the planets? by freeweed · · Score: 2

      Guess you've never taken a basic physics or astronomy course. The vast majority of what we know about non-terran objects is from indirect observations. We've never SEEN the surface of a star other than the sun, let alone taken samples from it - yet, most scientists agree that they're not simply pinpoints of light. Indirect observation is where virtually all of our astronomical theories come from.

      Extra-solar planets (and current detection methods) are almost universally believed in at this point. By your definition, we haven't even confirmed that other stars exist - maybe they're just fireflies and no one has captured one yet.

      Then again, some folks think we never landed on the moon.

      --
      Endless arguments over trivial contradictions in books written by ignorant savages to explain thunder in the dark.
    4. Re:How about the planets? by spazoid12 · · Score: 1

      "By your definition". You mean, the one I never provided?

      You miss the point.

      But I can see that you're just trying to troll me into a bad debate. So, I won't bother.

  61. Dark Energy by young-earth · · Score: 1, Troll
    It's very simple to explain... as the article says
    While gravity holds things together at the local level (and by local I mean within galaxies and even between them, forming galactic clusters) some unknown force is working behind the scenes and across the universe to pull everything apart. Scientists have only come to realize this dark force in recent years, by discovering that the universe is expanding at an ever-increasing pace.
    But the origin of that causative agent of the acceleration is obvious if you look:

    Job 9:8 "[God] stretches out the heavens"

    Psalm 104:2"stretching out heaven like a tent curtain"

    Isaiah 40:22"He ... stretches out the heavens like a curtain and spreads them out like a tent"

    Isaiah 42:5 "Thus says God the Lord, who created the heavens and stretched them out"

    Isaiah 44:24"I, the Lord, am the maker of all things, stretching out the heavens by Myself."

    Isaiah 45:12"It is I who made the earth and created man upon it. I stretched out the heavens with My hands"

    Isaiah 48:13"Surely My hand founded the earth and My right hand spread out the heavens."

    Isaiah 51:13"the Lord your Maker, Who stretched out the heavens and laid the foundations of the earth"

    Jer 10:12 "He has stretched out the heavens"

    Jer 51:15 "He stretched out the heavens"

    Zech 12:1 "the Lord who stretches out the heavens"

  62. Because it's "kinder" by WoodstockJeff · · Score: 0, Offtopic
    perhaps we should looking at why people our are sleeping in cardboard boxes on street corners

    They sleep in cardboard boxes by choice. They used to sleep in beds in warm places, until that option was removed.

    A significant percentage of the "homeless population" is there because of a decision made years ago by those who "know better". It was decided that keeping people locked away in "mental institutions" was unkind, and unjustified in non-violent cases. So thousands of people with diminished mental capacity were sent packing to half-way houses, community outreach centers, or on to the street with no help.

    Many were in those institutions because they could not or would not care for themselves. Their disease impaired their ability to hold jobs to support themselves, or even live with relatives who would take them in, so they live where they can.

    And it is getting worse, not better. Recently, a family friend suffered a major mental collapse, aided by drugs (including alcohol). His mother tried to get him declared incompetent, so that he could be institutionalized, to get help.

    The judge's ruling amounted to a declaration that, so long as he doesn't hurt anyone, no one can force him to get help, and he's free to wander the streets. He gets no counseling, no medication for his dillusional and paranoid state, nothing... even though his mother is willing to pay for it.

    Instead, because we don't have a single full-time shelter in our county, the county provides him with bus and train passes each day to move between operating shelters. And he spends his nights on the street when there aren't any open, because he won't stay with friends or relatives.

    Certainly, there are homeless people out there who are not there by choice - the so-called "one paycheck away" homeless. They aren't the majority, or even a large percentage, because just about anyone who is in those circumstances can find something in the way of shelter and other assistance. Heck, we've got thousands of bureaucrats in this country just chomping at the bit to find people like that, because they can only justify THEIR jobs by how many people they've got in their active case files!

  63. You forgot something: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The obligatory:

    5: ?
    6: Profit!

    Sorry, I had to...

    1. Re:You forgot something: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The obligatory:

      7: ?
      8: Profit!

      Sorry, I had to...

    2. Re:You forgot something: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The obligatory:

      9: ?
      10: Profit!

      Sorry, I had to...

    3. Re:You forgot something: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The obligatory:

      11: ?
      12: Profit!

      Sorry, I had to...

    4. Re:You forgot something: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The obligatory:

      13: ?
      14: Profit!

      Sorry, I had to...

    5. Re:You forgot something: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The obligatory:

      15: ?
      16: Profit!

      Sorry, I had to...

    6. Re:You forgot something: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The obligatory:

      15: ?
      14: Profit!

      Sorry, I had to...

  64. Easier way, and they're working on it... by Theaetetus · · Score: 2
    Space-based interferometers... Take a few smaller telescopes, separate them and fly them in formation, then combine the images while playing with phase to remove the light from the target star, thus exposing the planets around it.

    Here is the details on the first one... The eventual plan, as far as I've heard, is to put a pair (or more) out at the orbit of Jupiter, on opposite sides (maybe near the Jovian L4 and L5 points... though watch out for the Trojans!) of the solar system.

    -T http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/missions/future/sim.html

  65. Wrong nucleic acids by Milo+Fungus · · Score: 1

    Sorry to be nitpicky, but I'm a biology major taking biochemistry right now. The genetic information in sperm and egg cells is encoded as DNA, not RNA. Genetic material in long-term storage is always DNA. The chromosomes that seperate during meiosis (gamete production) are DNA.

    RNA is used for transcribing the information in DNA into "machine-readable" form that the cell uses to make proteins and such.

    When two RNA molecules come together, they do not form DNA. The main difference between DNA and RNA is that DNA has a hydroxly (-OH) group removed from the ribose unit. That's why it's called "Deoxyribose Nucleic Acid." The absence of the -OH group is what allows for the double helix structure of DNA.

    There are theories that early life in the primordial soup used RNA as its genetic storage molecule. It also has catalytic properties, so it is believed that RNA also catalyzed most of the reactions in early biochemical pathways. As life evolved the storage functions of RNA were taken over by the more stable DNA molecule and the catalytic functions were taken over by the more chemically diverse protein molecules. RNA was left as the middle man between DNA and proteins.

    The double helix structure of DNA is amazingly stable and allows for easy manipulations, like replication and transcription. When Watson and Crick proposed the double helix structure in 1953, they said, "It has not escaped our notice that the specific pairing we have postulated immediately suggests a possible copying mechanism for the genetic material."

    RNA is typically single-stranded and forms irregular structures that depend on the sequence of nucleotides. It will loop back on itself and form stem-loop structures and such.

    Anyway, that's your biochem lecture for today.

    1. Re:Wrong nucleic acids by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I can't believe this great message got a 1. The people modding messages around here are fucking idiots. Except when they mod me up.

  66. Astronomer's list by TMB · · Score: 5, Interesting

    As a professional astronomer, that list is quite different from what I'd give... here's my go:

    1. Dark matter - what the hell is it?
    2. Dark energy - what is it and why is it the strength it is? (#1 in the article)
    3. Short period gamma ray bursts - what the hell are they?
    4. Long period gamma ray bursts - what the hell are they?
    5. How prevalent is life and intelligent life in the universe? (#6 in the article)
    6. Star formation - what determines where and when it happens?
    7. Gravitational waves - can we detect them? what will they tell us?
    8. Was the universe reionized by stars or quasars, and when?
    9. How does solar activity couple to the Earth's climate?
    10. How does the feedback from stellar winds and supernovae into the interstellar medium affect it?

    [TMB]

    1. Re:Astronomer's list by Corvus9 · · Score: 1
      Peter J. Leonard has written extensively about the origins of gamma ray bursts. I think he had an article in Sky & Telescope a few years back, and is in last month's Scientific American.

      The best evidence indicates that short-period GRBs are created by collisons between ultra-massive objects like neutron stars or black holes.

      There is less evidence for the origin of long-period GRBs, but the current theory is that they are created by the collapse of massive stars into black holes.

      While there is no absolute proof of these theories, I think we have gone past the "what the hell are they?" stage in explaining GRBs.

  67. Machine experience of color by SpinyNorman · · Score: 5, Informative

    Actually color perception is only loosely related to wavelength. What you were taught in highschool was an oversimplification that borders on a lie (as is much of high school science!). Color is really a spatial attribute, not a point one (Google for Edward Land's "Retinex" theory of color preception), and perception of color is not absolute - it depends on the spatially adjacent colors; this isn't an optical illusion - it's the nature of color perception. It doesn't even stop there because color is a compatative attribute - things look "leaf green" because they stimulate your visual cortex in the same say as a leaf, but that is still true if you wear red goggles, and experiments have shown that normal color vision returns after a couple of weeks of wearing colored goggles!

    You should also note that humans can only see a fraction of the possible colors (combinations of wavelengths of light) even in the visual part of the spectrum), and there is therefore nothing absolute about what we perceive - it's just what we can differentiate. If instead of having 3 differently tuned color cones in our eye (the cones have bell-curve-like light wavelength response that peak around R/G/B) we had more, then we would be able to differentiate more wavelength combinations. With our eyes the way they are you can differentially stimulate our color cones with only three wavelengths of light, but if we had 4 (peak tuned to R/G/B/Yellow say, or ANY different wavelengths) then you would need 4. Some people in fact do have 4 types of color cones and can therefore differentiate colors that you cannot. Your "red" surface is someone else's patterned one!

    That absolute "red" that you are worrying about therefore isn't an irreducible gestalt experience/quale - it's a differential surface attribute detection that a machine will be able to duplicate just fine.

    Incidently note also that what you see a color as isn't going to be precisely what I see it as - we may agree on things like "green's a bit like blue and a bit like yellow" that are based on the underlying transducers and brain architecture, but what the color actually looks/feels like is going to be as personal as any other experiental phenomena.

    1. Re:Machine experience of color by Luyseyal · · Score: 2
      Incidently note also that what you see a color as isn't going to be precisely what I see it as - we may agree on things like "green's a bit like blue and a bit like yellow" that are based on the underlying transducers and brain architecture, but what the color actually looks/feels like is going to be as personal as any other experiental phenomena.

      Which is exactly the part I care about in my argument. :) I'm not claiming you can't mimic the behavioral response to color spaces, I'm claiming that the phenomenalogical experience may not be able to be duplicated in a given model.

      I recognize that what you call "green" I might call "orange" but since we're always consistent about it, we never knew we saw them differently... Now extend that problem from the human to the other (cat, computer, etc.). You are likely to have a much greater difference in interpretation. You may think duplicating the response to stimulus is sufficient, but I say "dammit, I paid for a box of chocolates, not a box of sand. I demand chocolate!" After all, what good is a model if it doesn't accurately model?

      Cheers,
      -l

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    2. Re:Machine experience of color by SpinyNorman · · Score: 1

      I'm not claiming you can't mimic the behavioral response to color spaces, I'm claiming that the phenomenalogical experience may not be able to be duplicated in a given model.

      If an AI were architected with a visual system (incl. visual cortex processing) the same as a human, then the phenomenology would be identical! He'd see green as halfway between blue and yellow just as you do, and it would look "grass green", "lime gree" etc to him just as it does to you!

      If the AI were complete enough to have built the mental models of the world that we do then he'd also make the same blue=icey/cold, red=hot type associations/experience that we have, and colors would be wired into his emotions the same way as us so that red is arousing, green calming, etc.

  68. Water on Mars? by deblau · · Score: 2

    Of course there's water on Mars! There are already cats and mice chasing each other up there!

    --
    This post expresses my opinion, not that of my employer. And yes, IAAL.
  69. Here's my space mystery: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Where's my underwear?

    The Leprechaun

  70. Dark energy VS existence of other Universes by roman_mir · · Score: 2

    Well, I don't know if this makes any sence, but after I read the questions, I noticed that two of them kind of explain each other.

    1. What is dark energy and why is our universe expanding faster than anticipated.

    2. Are there other universes out there.

    Sorry for my simplistic view of things, I only took 4 astronomy courses but could it be that existence of other universes explains the dark energy problem? Could it be that in some weird way masses of other universes attract masses of ours?

    On the other hand if that is not true, then imagine the following: a bubble bath. You know, where bubbles squeeze each other, they can grow due to air diffusing into them but they can squeeze each other. Is it possible that other universes are squeezing our universe and that the rate of growth is not equal to all sides of the universe but is proportional to the forces and vectors pushing our universe through such a bath full of bubbles?

    Screw this, I want to go get myself a bubble bath!

  71. how would you know? by Luyseyal · · Score: 2

    You might suppose that, but how would you know? You could check the behavior... but what does the behavior tell you? Nothing more than mimicked version.

    AFAICT. :)
    -l

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    1. Re:how would you know? by SpinyNorman · · Score: 1

      Well, how do I know that you have similar visual phenomenology to me? I only assume that because your perceptual and cognitive architecture is similar! (and questioning/testing of you would appear confirm that)

      If you really thing that there's some inherent "redness" that an AI would be missing out on, then ask yourself what would be left of "red" if you took away it's relative position in the spectrum (i.e. what other colors it's similar/disimilar to), took away your emotional response to it, took away your mental associations (fluorescent, blood, sweater, balloon or whatever), etc, etc. I say nothing!

      The only inherent attribute of color is that differently colored objects have different surface appearance (this is essentially the modern definition of color)... For another mental exercise try imagining an AI/robot which could detect color but somehow didn't have the experience of it that we do... But he'd still percieve differently colored objects as having different surface appearance, and it wouldn't be just shades of gray or somesuch as that wouldn't differentiate different colors of same lightness... The phenomenology comes directly from the comparative attributes...

    2. Re:how would you know? by Luyseyal · · Score: 2

      Fascinating! Well, it's good to know I'm not the only skeptic about the universe being perfectly logical and modelable. But what it appears that you're saying is that if you attempted to model all these interactions inside a giant computer with good sensors and whatnot, decompiling the assembler code generated from its perceptions of color would tell you nothing about the computer's experience of color (i.e., it's not modelable in a first order, decidable language). Instead, you'd have to use a heuristic methodology of comparison, testing, statistical likelihood, etc. to get that data.

      Does that sound right? Or am I missing something obvious (again) ?
      -l

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    3. Re:how would you know? by SpinyNorman · · Score: 1

      Well, I think you *could* correctly deduce the computer's experience of color, but of course there's a big difference in considering subjective experience analytically and actually having that subjective experience yourself... which of course is why it's hard to accept that our own subjective experience is really only the sum of the analyzable factors that we know it is! ... If someone correctly and completely described your visual phenomenology then you'd still probably regard that as an empty description even if it captured everying that you experience.

      IMO machine consciousness is a very similar issue - if it had the same feedback paths (and lack of them - conscious/subconscious access to various areas) in it's brain, same cognitive architecture, etc, then it'd have the same conscious experience that we do... From visual consciousness to
      somatic (body sense) consciousness... etc etc.

    4. Re:how would you know? by Luyseyal · · Score: 2
      which of course is why it's hard to accept that our own subjective experience is really only the sum of the analyzable factors that we know it is!

      Assuming that by "analyzable factors" you mean "reducible to a decidable logic", I guess that's the assumption I haven't bought all these years. I'm not a Continental, a Christian, or anything like that (i.e., I don't have any axes to grind)... it just seems incorrect somehow. "Extraordinary claims demand extraordinary proof" and all of that. While I agree that math has been a very useful tool in understanding and modeling the universe so far, I haven't seen any proofs for a decidable logic being able to accurately model all of the universe's phenomena.

      I guess it's just the damn empiricist in me acting up. :)
      -l

      p.s., and don't start in with the Fibonacci sequence in nature. ;) I know ALL about that!

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    5. Re:how would you know? by SpinyNorman · · Score: 1

      I doubt there ever will be such a proof. In fact if you read Wolfram's "A New Kind of Science" you'll find just the opposite! Of course that's not to say that non-linear systems can't be modelled at all, but maybe we'll never be able to do better than characterize solutions (e.g. it lies on this strange attractor..).

      However as far as the architecture of biological systems go, one would expect the incremental enhancement design technique of evolution to have found very stable designs where incremental changes have mostly incremental effects (i.e. linear dynamics) ... and analytical modelling is therefore likely to be quite successful.

    6. Re:how would you know? by Luyseyal · · Score: 2

      Ah, ok, I see from whence you come. Thanks for this thread, it's been a pleasure. :)

      -l

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  72. Screw everybody, I'm looking up the numbers by Captain+Nitpick · · Score: 1
    Well, I don't think there is just one magical number for the pressure...

    Of course not. The magical number is two numbers that locate what is called the triple point, where solid, liquid, and vapor phases of a substance can coexist. A triple point is commonly defined by pressure and temperature.

    If your pressure is higher than the pressure at the triple point, then you can have solid, liquid, or vapor. What you have is dependent on temperature. If the pressure is equal to the pressure at the triple point, you can have solid, vapor, or a mixture of solid, vapor, and liquid.

    If the pressure is lower, you can only have solid or vapor. No liquid phase. Sublimation.

    Now, just to put a rest to this, I'm digging up the actual numbers. The triple point of water occurs at 0.6113 kPa and 0.01 C. Atmospheric pressure on Mars is a bit variable, but is perilously close to the magic 0.6113 kPa. Now, according to NASA, Mars Pathfinder reported a minimum pressure of 0.67 kPa. This means that liquid water could exist at the Pathfinder site today, but would be restricted to a very narrow temperature range.

    However, this assumes that the atmospheric pressure on Mars has never dropped below 0.6113 kPa, which is unlikely given that its current pressure is so close to that number. As soon as the pressure drops below that value, all your liquid water goes to vapor. I'm not qualified to say exactly what happens next, but it's probably much easier for a planet to lose water vapor than liquid water.

    So, while you could take a cup of ice water outside your Mars habitat without losing all the liquid (and a good deal of the ice), you are unlikely to find any liquid water on Mars's surface today after several billion years of climate variation.

    Why give up hope?

    Because wishful thinking cannae change the laws of physics!

    (Hooray, I'm getting some use out of my thermodynamics class!)

    --
    But then again, I could be wrong.
  73. Mod Parent Up by mraymer · · Score: 2

    If you look up Informative in the Slashdot Dictionary, there's a picture of this post... :) Thanks a lot, Captain Nitpick!

    --

    "To confine our attention to terrestrial matters would be to limit the human spirit." -Stephen Hawking

  74. the most important unasked question by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    How much energy will it take to fuel an efficient FTL "warp" drive? I want to go to another galaxy, then return to this galaxy, and still be the same age as I was when I left.

    How much energy will that take?

  75. try spacedaily.com by tqft · · Score: 1

    spacedaily.com is actually having a small holiday over Xmas/New Year I like the daily email - by section - mil, satellite, launches, etc - with url so you can easily pick what you want to read. Also at bottom is a list of last weeks stories so if you miss or delete an email you can find it sort of easy in the next week. Some popups to keep them alive but that is life.

    --
    The Singularity is closer than you think
    Quant
  76. Intrusive ads by PurpleBob · · Score: 2

    Don't go to the site.

    They're getting money from that intrusive type of Flash ad that sits over what you're trying to read. These have been far too common recently. If you go to the site and see the ad, you'll only encourage their use.

    (They also rub it in by having an onClose popup ad, too. They're just as bad as a porn site!)

    And yes, I know, "use Mozilla". If I were on my own computer, I would.

    --
    Win dain a lotica, en vai tu ri silota
    1. Re:Intrusive ads by Doctor+Hu · · Score: 1
      ... They also rub it in by having an onClose popup ad, too. ...
      Plus, the popups include one of those bogus "did you know your computer is broadcasting IP address n.n.n.n?" 'security' alerts.

      Watch this space? No thanks.

  77. Number 1 has got to be . . . by ogre2112 · · Score: 1

    Space Quest 4.

    I never could finish that game.

  78. Re:Answers: model? by saskboy · · Score: 2

    Teenager Acretion model?

    I don't think it will work as well as the planetary model.

    --
    Saskboy's blog is good. 9 out of 10 dentists agree.
  79. OK, I'll bite. by doug363 · · Score: 3, Insightful
    We have pretty good evidence that testability leads to better results. Look at all the technology around you. Virtually all of it was designed using a combination of theory and then prototypes to test the results of that theory. Many inventions and phenomena were predicted by the theories that you deride. For example, the transistor was predicted in the 1920s, and electromagnetic waves were predicted in the 1800s. Most of the tall buildings that you see are standing because of the predictions of Newton's laws, something that he probably did not envisage in the 1600s. Ironically, the fact that science has gotten so far as for you to not understand where it "begins", so to speak, is further testament to that. Science is science because it is rigorously testable, and that property is unique compared to other disciplines.

    You can go out and make measurements yourself that demonstrate in a very accurate way how the theories work. It's amazing how much science you can see around you (and measure!) every day, with no equipment except your own body. Science can predict what is possible, and what will happen in certain circumstances, with incredible accuracy. That's not to say that religion has no value, but from a purely pragmatic viewpoint, applying logic and scientific investigation gets you results time after time. Religion may not. What you get out of it depends on how much faith you put into it, and even then, society may discover something the next day which will show beyond reasonable doubt that you were actually wrong about certain beliefs.

    One further nitpick: the Big Bang doesn't mean an explosion in the normal sense. Time and space themselves were created. There was no matter at that stage, only energy. There was no sound. Even light, a manifestation of the electromagnetic force, wasn't in the form that we know it today. Yes, there are very specific observations that are extremely hard to explain without such a theory. You won't see detailed explanations for the composition of matter and the way it interacts with itself in most religion's theories of creation. But you'll need to spend years leaning about physics to even understand the big bang theory as it currently stands.

    An explanation of why the universe is, is not something that mainstream science claims to have a definate answer to. There's lots of ideas, such as the many-universe theories (which I don't really subscribe to personally) that say something like, "Well, one of the tickets (universes) in the lottery has to win." Or the anthropomorphic ones: "If the universe didn't have intelligent life, then I wouldn't be around to know if I lost." Or a myriad of other ideas that aren't based around a God per se. So in summary, just because it's improbable that a universe would be this way by chance, it doesn't mean that it's impossible, ever.

    1. Re:OK, I'll bite. by Chacham · · Score: 1

      Many inventions and phenomena were predicted by the theories that you deride.

      I had no intention of deriding the theories themselves. I was merely answering in kind to the OP. He said his remark with great derision, so I answered the same way.

      Science is science because it is rigorously testable,

      That is untrue. Science is science because it is merely a study and not a proof. Noone can deny that you can study things. However, Science needs to go past the first level. That is, if everything was to be studied, we'd have a lot of records but little progress. So, Science has a method to rely on one study to do another, thus reaching a second level.

      The problem is that while studies study phenomina, and we can say with great certainty that the phenomina happened, we cannot say that the theory is the reason it happened. While it may be likely, the theory cannot be proven. However, so as not to be stagnated by this lack of certainty, rules were created on which to allow a study to be called truthful (until proven otherwise). The rules were that something had to be testable and repeatable. A wise choice.

      Thus, Science is not science because it is testable, Science is science because it is a study. It can go past the first level because it is testable.

      Note, however, that requiring something to be testable and repeatable is limiting. If something were untestable or unrepeatable, Science could not touch it. Granted little is known to be like that, however excluding the possibility is closed-minded, and the reason I asked this question.

      and that property is unique compared to other disciplines.

      All disciplines only prove themseleves. Science only proves itself, because Science predicts that which it tests, and tests that which it predicts. Logic is merely a tool. Yet Logic only proves itself because it is logical. Nothing outside of Logic proves Logic. In a similar fashion, Religion believes in things. Belief powers itself. Believers believe in belief because it is believable. Nothing outside of belief can prove belief.

      I guess, so, in a sense, all disciplines are unique. So, if one was to specialize in any one discipline, they should choose the one with the (unique) tools that appeals to them. They can even blatantly ignore the other systems. Just, don't ever say that one is correct and the other is incorrect. Each only proves themselves.

      It's amazing how much science you can see around you (and measure!) every day, with no equipment except your own body.

      And it's amazing how much G-dliness you can see around you (and enjoy!) with no equipment other than your own heart.

      And it's amazing how many axioms you can see around you (and philosophize!) with no equipment other than your own intellect.

      Science can predict what is possible, and what will happen in certain circumstances,

      So can Philosophy and Religion.

      with incredible accuracy.

      With incredible *scientific* accuracy. Let us not forget the vicious cycle. :-)

      That's not to say that religion has no value, but from a purely pragmatic viewpoint, applying logic and scientific investigation gets you results time after time. Religion may not.

      When a person is looking for a more fullfiling life Religion gets you results time after time. Science may not.

      What you get out of it depends on how much faith you put into it,

      Not neccesarily. Some religions are heavy on Faith, some on Logic. As such Faith doesn't always get results. It really depends on the relgion, the individual, and the sought after results.

      and even then, society may discover something the next day which will show beyond reasonable doubt that you were actually wrong about certain beliefs.

      And this isn't true about Science?!?

      Also, this is not always true with Religion. If the belief is that a deity created the world and communicated Truths, nothing can prove it incorrect, that is the basis of the belief.

      In fact, it is the Scientists (or intellectuals) that claim certain things and say that a belief must be incorrect, only to find out later that they were incorrect due to lack of knowledge. Examples include the world being round (religious belief that intellectuals denied until Columbus), humans in the form of monkeys (Jewish belief), and others.

      Time and space themselves were created.

      That Time was created, I can understand. As Time measures movement, before a physical realm existed, there could be no time. However, how space was created is beyond my understanding. How can space be created? Either the physical realm was there or it wasn't. If it was there, the Big Bang didn't create it, if it wasn't there then how can it be created (without saying that something non-physical created it)?

      There was no matter at that stage, only energy.

      So how did the energy come to be? Energy, like matter, is physcial. To say that this physical thing came from that physical thing is useless. What created the *original* physical thing?

      There was no sound. Even light, a manifestation of the electromagnetic force, wasn't in the form that we know it today. Yes, there are very specific observations that are extremely hard to explain without such a theory.

      I actually have no problem with that particular aspect.

      You won't see detailed explanations for the composition of matter and the way it interacts with itself in most religion's theories of creation. But you'll need to spend years leaning about physics to even understand the big bang theory as it currently stands.

      And you can years on Religion too you know. :-)

      Just like Science is a complicated discipline, so is Religion. And being religion has been religiously investigated by more people for more time, I think it demands as much respect, if not more.

      An explanation of why the universe is, is not something that mainstream science claims to have a definate answer to.

      How often do you read slashdot? :P The Scientists, when pushed admit what you just said. However, talk to them and find out what their personal beliefs are. Also, the people that do not understand science (they haven't studied it, or haven't studied enough, or don't have enough time, or they just don't "get it" even though they want to, etc...) rely on Scientists and *believe* that they (the Scientists) are correct. They also *believe* that the answers are in Science, but that we just haven't found them yet (which, strangely enough, is a belief).

      There's lots of ideas, such as the many-universe theories (which I don't really subscribe to personally) that say something like, "Well, one of the tickets (universes) in the lottery has to win." Or the anthropomorphic ones: "If the universe didn't have intelligent life, then I wouldn't be around to know if I lost." Or a myriad of other ideas that aren't based around a God per se. So in summary, just because it's improbable that a universe would be this way by chance, it doesn't mean that it's impossible, ever.

      True. And I have mentioned that to people many times. It depends on how people find their truths. If through Logic, it is not a good proof. If not through Logic, it just might be.

      Re:OK, I'll bite.

      Thanx, I appreciate it.

    2. Re:OK, I'll bite. by doug363 · · Score: 2
      Thanks for the in-depth reply :). My point re science was that it can predict reality very well. There's a huge philiosiphical debate that you can get into about what is physically real and what isn't, what our observations really mean, and whether the predictable behaviour that we observe is really there or just an illusion.

      I agree with what you're saying on the whole. My personal belief is that religions have been there for two reasons: to give people comfort that there are "greater things" out there, and to explain things that have no other explanation. As science progresses and offers alternative explanations for things (such as how the planet came into existance, or what stars are), there is less need for religions to explain phenomena. I really don't see what the problem is with people saying: OK, so the story of Creation was a simplistic, symbolic way of explaining a complex process to people thousands of years ago, but isn't literally true. The fact that the mechanism for Creation was in fact so fantasically complex that humanity still can't understand it fully enhances the believability of God, as you said. The classic example of an explanation moving from a religious domain to a scientific one is Gallileo's explanation of how the Earth fit into the solar system, as opposed to Aristotle's. People's interpretation of religion over time necessarily reflects on other aspects of their society: obviously current Christians' interpretations of the Bible is substantially different to that of Christians 2000 years ago.

      To my mind, it is perfectly plausible that our translated record of people's beliefs thousands of years ago may not have been the word of God in the way that we currently interpret the words. Indeed, the message may have been tailored to the people whom it targets to fit in with the existing ideas at the time, or they may have interpreted God's message in this way themselves. Again, IMHO, this doesn't lessen the possibility or plausability of God, or dilute the fundamental messages of a religion.

      By the way, the bit about space being created: yes, it's a very difficult theory to understand, and when it comes down to it, the interpretation is just an interpretation. It's the maths which counts, but it's hard to say what the maths describes if it's not the creation of space itself. It relies on the idea that space may not be a huge expanse that's everywhere, that space may curve back onto itself. The standard explanation asks you to imagine being an ant on a balloon and thinking of what you observe as the balloon is inflated. The amount of space (surface area on the balloon) actually increases in this process, and space could be curved in that way (General relativity describes space in this way). So space could have gone from being nonexistant to being a very very small "balloon" in a sense. Nasty to think about, I know ;).

      And I disagree about logic not being a good way of proving things. Logic provides an excellent way of developing ideas (Maths is entirely based on logic), but it can be misapplied. The problems that you see with logic are those that you see when it is misapplied: when the system that you're considering doesn't fit within the assumptions of a purely logical system (i.e. has statements which are not either true or false only). Not just that, but science relies on other things apart from logic, such as inference, interpretation, extrapolation, and straight out guessing at times. So you can't say that logic doesn't provide good truths. It does provide truths that are as good as you get, but some people don't understand how it's applied, and so people claim that "X is logically true" when it's not. In fact, you can't say anything at all about our physical world using just logic without a whole lot of assumptions that are usually left out.

    3. Re:OK, I'll bite. by Chacham · · Score: 1

      Thanks for the in-depth reply :).

      Ditto.

      My point re science was that it can predict reality very well.

      Actually, that it *has* predicted some things well. You cannot say with certainty that it *can*.

      For all you know, the world is utter and complete chaos lasting for billions of years. With complete randomness every moment changing the structure of the universe. And, as it just so happens, within the randomness and chaos, "order" seemed to appear for a century or two. No different than someone takiung a random set of numbers from pi and finding order, seeing that it lasts in order for a few more numbers, and then completely goes otherwise.

      Surely, we need what to deal with and thus *assume* order. Though, that in itself does not pass reasonable doubt. Science claims that the world has been around for billions of years, yet (Science itself) has only been around for a century or two (this well sophisticated). Can two hundred years out of billions really prove order?

      There's a huge philiosiphical debate that you can get into about what is physically real and what isn't, what our observations really mean, and whether the predictable behaviour that we observe is really there or just an illusion.

      And recognizing the debate is important. However, I'm okay with the usual response, that we have to start somewhere. Even if it is all proven incorrect, the fact that we were able to use it now and then makes it at least somewhat acceptable.

      My personal belief is that religions have been there for two reasons: to give people comfort that there are "greater things" out there, and to explain things that have no other explanation.

      You may have missed my point. I was showing two things. One, that just as Science has its way of discerning truths, so does Religion. Neither being better than the other. Two, that has its place. Whereas Science can provide where religion cannot, Religion can provide where Science cannot. In the places where they can both provide is where one makes his choice.

      As science progresses and offers alternative explanations for things (such as how the planet came into existance, or what stars are), there is less need for religions to explain phenomena.

      For those who have chosen to believe in Science and use Religion only where Science cannot provide.

      Remember, Science is a *study*. It cannot "prove" anything. In fact, saying that Science *will* prove something is a belief, which is religious, not scientific. Thus, Evolutionism, as I call it, is a religion. That is the relgion of those who believe that Science will explain the origin of everything. Being open to the idea is not Evolutionism, mind you. I mean specifically, the belief that Evolution (or something related in Sience) will prove all.

      I really don't see what the problem is with people saying: OK, so the story of Creation was a simplistic, symbolic way of explaining a complex process to people thousands of years ago, but isn't literally true.

      There's nothing wrong with saying it as a possibility. Hey, to each their own. But to say it with conviction is to belittle the people who use Religion over Science, and that is the overwhelming majority of the US (and world) population.

      The fact that the mechanism for Creation was in fact so fantasically complex that humanity still can't understand it fully enhances the believability of God, as you said.

      I'll repeat that, tilted the other way:

      The fact that the mechanism for Creation was in fact so fantastically simple that humanity still can understand it fully--even with all those tempting complex, theories of Science--, enhances the believabiltiy of G-d,

      The classic example of an explanation moving from a religious domain to a scientific one is Gallileo's explanation of how the Earth fit into the solar system, as opposed to Aristotle's.

      I'll disagree there. One, Aristotle was anything but religious. That was Philosophy, not Religion. Second, Science has only proven that from inside the box it seems that the Earth rotates around the sun. I am still open to the possibility that we'll get "outside the box" (whether the box be the galaxy or whatever) and see the other way to be true. I am not saying that it is true, or that it even should be worried about. But to say that it is patently not true may be foolish.

      People's interpretation of religion over time necessarily reflects on other aspects of their society: obviously current Christians' interpretations of the Bible is substantially different to that of Christians 2000 years ago.

      Not really.

      Very few religions have been around for that long. Christianity is one, but its doctrines were not all started at one time. About fifteen hundred years ago there was a great debate over the idea of the trinity. Until then the belief was duality, but the trinity finally won. So, chrisitanity evolved because it was never set in stone.

      Judaism, however, is still the same even after (nearly) four thousand years. The beliefs were set in stone and were never changed. I wonder if other religions can be found to be the same way.

      To my mind, it is perfectly plausible that our translated record of people's beliefs thousands of years ago may not have been the word of God in the way that we currently interpret the words. Indeed, the message may have been tailored to the people whom it targets to fit in with the existing ideas at the time, or they may have interpreted God's message in this way themselves.

      It depends on the religion. If the religion, like Catholicism, has its fundamentals set by one individual (the infallible Pope), then you might be able to say what you said. Other religions, however, have their beliefs via passed down traditions. When traditions from two parts of the world are shown to be almost identical even after centuries of being apart, your theory is discounted.

      By the way, the bit about space being created: yes, it's a very difficult theory to understand, and when it comes down to it, the interpretation is just an interpretation.

      That's no excuse though for saying that the inconceivable is that which actually happened.

      It's the maths which counts, but it's hard to say what the maths describes if it's not the creation of space itself.... So space could have gone from being nonexistant to being a very very small "balloon" in a sense. Nasty to think about, I know ;).

      No, it couldn't.

      First, as someone pointed out to me, the difference between zero and one, is much greater than the difference between one and two. So, even if you did prove to me that wild theory that space "expanded" , it still provides no solution for how the first bit of space got there.

      Now, as for this expansion, regardless of the maths, it makes no sense. Blow up a baloon half way. Make a box around the baloon. Try expanding the ballon further. Is it possible?

      Saying that the balloon expanding is like space, may be understandable. But where will you "put" that space? If the space does not exist, it can not go "there", simply because there is no "there"!

      Regardless of the theories you ascribe to space, a physical realm is still required. I contend it to be impossible to explain how that realm got there (without going non-physical).

      And I disagree about logic not being a good way of proving things.

      I never said that it wasn't a good way. It is a good way, just like Belief is a good way. Each proves themselves to be good tools, but neither disproves the other.

      The problems that you see with logic are those that you see when it is misapplied:

      No, that's just a problem with the people. :-)

      My problem is that you cannot "prove" that Logic is a proving tool, without using Logic itself. (We only use Logic because it is the logical thing to do.) Thus it is a vicious cycle.

      Not just that, but science relies on other things apart from logic, such as inference, interpretation, extrapolation, and straight out guessing at times.

      Inference is Logical. Interpretation, extrapolation, and even guesses are merely brute-force attacks to provide Science with what to test. They are not "relied" upon, however.

      So you can't say that logic doesn't provide good truths. It does provide truths that are as good as you get,

      Just like Philosophy and Religion do.

      but some people don't understand how it's applied,

      Or, don't choose to use that method of proving truths. Just because a method exists does not mean that it has to be used.

      In fact, you can't say anything at all about our physical world using just logic without a whole lot of assumptions that are usually left out.

      Yes, and recognition of that is the first step to not attacking those with other beliefs, as the OP did.

    4. Re:OK, I'll bite. by doug363 · · Score: 1
      Actually, that it *has* predicted some things well. You cannot say with certainty that it *can*.

      For all you know, the world is utter and complete chaos lasting for billions of years. With complete randomness every moment changing the structure of the universe. And, as it just so happens, within the randomness and chaos, "order" seemed to appear for a century or two. No different than someone takiung a random set of numbers from pi and finding order, seeing that it lasts in order for a few more numbers, and then completely goes otherwise.

      Very true. IMHO, the way that the universe does seem to be predictable is absolutely amazing.

      You may have missed my point. I was showing two things. One, that just as Science has its way of discerning truths, so does Religion. Neither being better than the other. Two, that has its place. Whereas Science can provide where religion cannot, Religion can provide where Science cannot. In the places where they can both provide is where one makes his choice.

      OK, I think I understand what you're saying now. I think I've got a subtlely different idea of what a truth is to you. Somehow slightly less personal or something. I suppose I think of truths as things that transcend an individual's beliefs. In other words, there are lots of religious truths, which conflict to an extent, so according to my definition, they aren't all truths because they all can't be completely true. For example, one person says "there is only one God, not ten", and someone else says, "there are exactly ten Gods, not one". I don't understand how both can be true simultaneously, but that's kinda a logical thing, and... yuck.

      And regarding logic: The only reason that we see logic around is because people understand it in a sense. It fits in with a certain mode of thought that many people are comfortable with after some practice, and it can be applied in science, which as we've already established, isn't proof, but is useful. These things also apply to religion.

      Inference is Logical.

      Sorry, inference was an ambigious word to choose. I meant induction (not in the mathematical sense), not deduction. Deduction is logical, but induction isn't.

      Interpretation, extrapolation, and even guesses are merely brute-force attacks to provide Science with what to test.

      OK, yes, but if you're a scientist, and "do" science, then you have to be able to do that stuff. Even if you're just applying a theory, you still have to match up a physical situation to a more mathematical/logical description, which isn't covered by logic.

      First, as someone pointed out to me, the difference between zero and one, is much greater than the difference between one and two. So, even if you did prove to me that wild theory that space "expanded" , it still provides no solution for how the first bit of space got there.

      Yes, that was just me plucking a simplistic theory out as an example. Science has no answer about how the first bit of space got there. Current physics breaks down when things get that compact. At the first 10^-40 seconds or so (not very long ;) ) don't have any sort of widely accepted theory to describe them, or the moment of creation itself. There are lots of ideas around, but that's beyond science's self-imposed boundaries at the moment. It might be beyond science's reach forever.

    5. Re:OK, I'll bite. by Chacham · · Score: 1

      Lameness filter encountered. Post aborted!
      Reason: Please use fewer 'junk' characters.
      ===

      Grr... Oh well, slashdot does it again. I posted my reply here.

  80. There can be only one by Geccoman · · Score: 1

    The one true question:

    What is REALLY in hot dogs?

    I'd like to see them solve THAT one.

    --
    I'm on a chair.