All I can say is that this will be horrible for SuSe linux. Sun has been mismanaged "everything" they touched for a while and I don't think they will improve linux in any manner.
Sun is dying a slow death and this might be their last try, which might end up taking down SuSE linux with it...
Yeah, you hit it right on... the problem is that there are massive wealth, and hence wage, disparities all over the world. Developed countries just cannot compete. Furthermore, the standard of living of developing countries is unsustainable (eg. can one country like USA really consume 30%(?) of the world's oil supply?).
I think what will happen is that the developed countries' standard of living will go down. It will happen in a transparent manner. It is already happening but most people don't know it. For example, American real wages (wages adjusted for inflation) has been slightly negative to flat for the last 20 years.
I think the US$ will devalue strongly against other currencies (particularly the Asian ones) and that will make USA more competitive while making people poorer. Due to productivity improvements and cheap labour (from developing countries), the cost of manufactured products will keep dropping even though US$ will decline. So the average American won't feel it but investors and economists will know what's going on. For example, if you, as an American, held money in Euros instead of US$ over the last 2 years, you would have made 20% just on the currency drop.
" example: both my sister and all my friends will not buy american cars, and in fact, go out of the way to make sure the japanese cars they do buy have a VIN starting with "J", meaning they were built in Japan."
That's becoming obsolete now too... Due to the M&A (mergers & acquisitions) we had a while back, you can't tell what's an American company or what's a Japanese company, and what's a European company. I mean, is DaimlerChrysler American? Parts and design are done all over the place now that it's hard to say what's what...
"In the end, it's all about the money... it's not like M$ doesn't have enough.. it's that the education system in the US doesn't compare to the top of the line in India (statistically speaking, it makes sense, top(x) of 1 billion will be better than top(x) of 300 milion)"
I don't think it's the education. Instead, it's the large income and cost of living differences across countries. I think most of the "problems" are due to the massive wealth--and hence wage--disparaties...
The problem at hand is far more difficult than it seems...
"If we forced American corporations to pay a minimum wage and minimum benefits to foreign workers, you and I would be able to compete much better and the foreign workers (albeit fewer of them) would be much better off for it as well."
You still can't compete--because the cost of living is drastically different! For example, bread costs $1 in USA while it costs $0.10 in the poorer countries. Someone making American minimum wage in a poorer country would probably fall into the middle class in the poorer country. In the poorest of the poorest (say some country in Africa), the American minimum wage would be equivalent to low-upper class wages.
The issues are intrinsic to capitalism and there really isn't any solution IMO. Whether USA (or any other country for that matter) totally cuts off trade or if to goes totally laissez-faire, the situation will still exist.
"
What you are missing is that in order to "outsource" work to any country, a company must pay the people who work there more than they were being paid already, otherwise they wouldn't work for them, would they?"
Unless unemployment is very high, which is the case in the world, unfortunately... There is "excess" labour in this world. It remains to be seen what happens under capitalism.
ING Direct pays the most for short-term so that isn't necessarily reflective of the typical bank. In any case, I don't think MS is anywhere near a 'value' company. As you said, MS needs to pay out far more in dividends before people looking for income will buy it. You basically need around 3% to 5% dividend yield. With the new changes, MS will pay around 1% dividend. I think what MS will become is an IBM. You know, a blue-chip tech company with decent growth but not amazing growth.
"
One other thing - MS used to say they needed the cash hoard because they saw multiple imminent threats and needed a defense warchest. This could be an indication that they no longer see such threats as mortal. I still hope they're wrong!"
They actually said that the lawsuits have been mostly settled. Otherwise they wouldn't pay it out...
"
I'm an investor in stocks, but I've always thought the employees deserved a bigger piece of the pie than the shareholder.
"
Most capitalists would disagree with you... I'm ok with your view though, although I wouldn't do it exactly as you are suggesting. What companies should do is make equity ownership as part of their compensation. This already happens to some degree but it needs to be more popular. This way, anything that benefits the company benefits the workers--at least to some degree...
Since this is a one-time event and unexpected*, the price should go up by $3 tomorrow. Then it will drop by $3 on ex-dividend date. This is assuming that other events don't impact the price.
So the conspiracy theorist argument is correct. People who hold near-the-money options may benefit if the stock goes up $3 and the options become in-the-money.
(* The market tries to anticipate events but this is unexpected in the sense that no one knew exactly how much was going to be paid out and in what manner).
"
By the way, at the share price ($28), $3 represents nearly 12% annualized retun. so for people with underperforming stock, unless MS stock goes down, it's an attractive stock."
It's a one-time payment so "annualized return" is kind of misleading (it's true but only for one year). In any case, according to finance theory, the stock price should drop by $3 on the ex-dividend date (which is Nov 17--actually this is the record date, and I'm not sure what the ex-div date is). The stock price will rise $3 tomorrow (or as soon as the dividend information is available) and then it will fall $3 on the ex-dividend date. So you really do not profit unless you managed to own the stock before the dividend was announced*. Of course, other factors affect the stock price too so the price may not rise/fall by $3.
(* In reality, you would have had to buy the stock a few months back. Usually the market tries to anticipate events like this (whether they are right is another story). For instance, there was speculation as far back as 4 weeks ago that MS would pay out its dividend. So the present stock price would take that info into account).
Coming from Robert Novak, who also happens to be the guy who illegally (although inadvertently) carried out the wishes of the administration, does it mean anything? Shouldn't you, perhaps, pay attention to someone else?
Bill Gates is so rich that taxes are inconsequential to him (unless the govt starts expropriating 90%+ of his wealth). Whether he pays $1b in tax or $2b is totally irrelevant. He has more money than what can be "used".
"People who love developing software do it. I don't think OSS is anti-capitalist, rather, I think it is anti-corporatist. Our highway infrastructure(speaking yankee centric here) is not capitalist in nature, but has been a big boom to capitalist enterprise. I think OSS stands to be a big boon to that enterprise as well.
"
But you do realize that under pure capitalism, you are supposed to privatize the roads too (in fact it's happening in some parts of the world).
The problem I see is that the people who love doing it don't have an incentive greater than those that get paid exclusively to develop software. You (and others) benefit and there is no doubt about it. But how many people would be willing to code just because they like it? Can these compete with funded software? For instance, linux is a great accomplishment but will it ever have the same marketshare as Microsoft? I have a feeling it won't, because the push and the motivation just isn't there. For example, can these products meet a tight deadline? Nope.
Furthermore, how will open-source survive in the world of patents (which are inherently capitalistic)? Going back to linux as an example, you can't even play certain video files (Windows Media format or Realplayer for example) without circumventing the patents.
I agree that there are immense benefits, particularly to poor countries, small businesses, and up-and-coming entrepreneurs. However, I don't know if it will survive.
But you wouldn't move permanently... all that would happen is that people will teleport all over the planet for work and then come home.... If teleportation is discovered, this is what will happen (I'm not saying it's good or bad)...
Companies would locate themselves to some attractive locations (eg. Bahamas, Switzerland, Singapore; or places like that). Then the workers would live wherever they want but teleport to work every morning and then come home. What will essentially happen is that the notion of countries will become obsolete. I mean, you could even have your workplace on the moon and teleport back and forth.
The problem is that the wealth discrepancy is huge so any changes will be drastic. Capitalists always bring up how people need to be innovative but the gap is very large. For instance, your innovation has to be roughly 4x "better" because wages are 4x lower in some of the poorer countries. This is going to be very difficult for those living in wealthier countries. When USA, for example, was competing with Japan in the 80's, the gap wasn't that large. When USA is competing with China, the gap is very large. The cost of labour (and consequently, the cost of anything: food, transportation, housing, etc) is much lower in these countries.
People in the wealthier countries are going to become poorer IMO. You can't do anything about it; that's just the way of life (study history and you'll see how USA was poor in the 1800's and Europe was rich). I think what will happen is the currency will devalue like crazy, and when that happens the wealthier countries will be just as competitive. To an average citizen, they won't be able to tell any difference directly (one $ is still one dollar) but their imports will become more expensive.
I think open-source software is anti-capitalist so I don't know how things will work. For instance, who has the incentive to develop software if software companies can be easily replaced? I don't know... it remains to be seen...
There is no point responding to trolls but let me try...
First of all, most guys on battle.net are Korean, not Chinese (not that you would know the difference). Second, most of these are kids and teenagers. If I look at Americans, or Canadian, or Europeans, or whoever, people in that age group seem to be lacking teamwork as well. Lastly, you are a racist...
Slashdot Mirror
All I can say is that this will be horrible for SuSe linux. Sun has been mismanaged "everything" they touched for a while and I don't think they will improve linux in any manner.
Sun is dying a slow death and this might be their last try, which might end up taking down SuSE linux with it...
Japan's higher costs are one thing that is making their recovery difficult...
Yeah, you hit it right on... the problem is that there are massive wealth, and hence wage, disparities all over the world. Developed countries just cannot compete. Furthermore, the standard of living of developing countries is unsustainable (eg. can one country like USA really consume 30%(?) of the world's oil supply?).
I think what will happen is that the developed countries' standard of living will go down. It will happen in a transparent manner. It is already happening but most people don't know it. For example, American real wages (wages adjusted for inflation) has been slightly negative to flat for the last 20 years.
I think the US$ will devalue strongly against other currencies (particularly the Asian ones) and that will make USA more competitive while making people poorer. Due to productivity improvements and cheap labour (from developing countries), the cost of manufactured products will keep dropping even though US$ will decline. So the average American won't feel it but investors and economists will know what's going on. For example, if you, as an American, held money in Euros instead of US$ over the last 2 years, you would have made 20% just on the currency drop.
" example: both my sister and all my friends will not buy american cars, and in fact, go out of the way to make sure the japanese cars they do buy have a VIN starting with "J", meaning they were built in Japan."
That's becoming obsolete now too... Due to the M&A (mergers & acquisitions) we had a while back, you can't tell what's an American company or what's a Japanese company, and what's a European company. I mean, is DaimlerChrysler American? Parts and design are done all over the place now that it's hard to say what's what...
"In the end, it's all about the money... it's not like M$ doesn't have enough.. it's that the education system in the US doesn't compare to the top of the line in India (statistically speaking, it makes sense, top(x) of 1 billion will be better than top(x) of 300 milion)" I don't think it's the education. Instead, it's the large income and cost of living differences across countries. I think most of the "problems" are due to the massive wealth--and hence wage--disparaties...
The problem at hand is far more difficult than it seems...
"If we forced American corporations to pay a minimum wage and minimum benefits to foreign workers, you and I would be able to compete much better and the foreign workers (albeit fewer of them) would be much better off for it as well."
You still can't compete--because the cost of living is drastically different! For example, bread costs $1 in USA while it costs $0.10 in the poorer countries. Someone making American minimum wage in a poorer country would probably fall into the middle class in the poorer country. In the poorest of the poorest (say some country in Africa), the American minimum wage would be equivalent to low-upper class wages.
The issues are intrinsic to capitalism and there really isn't any solution IMO. Whether USA (or any other country for that matter) totally cuts off trade or if to goes totally laissez-faire, the situation will still exist.
" What you are missing is that in order to "outsource" work to any country, a company must pay the people who work there more than they were being paid already, otherwise they wouldn't work for them, would they?"
Unless unemployment is very high, which is the case in the world, unfortunately... There is "excess" labour in this world. It remains to be seen what happens under capitalism.
Capitalism will result in corporatism... monopolies will rule free markets...
If you don't mind me asking, what business are you guys into?
I don't think that's correct. I think you only get executed for drug trafficking. Piracy just results in fines from what I understand...
ING Direct pays the most for short-term so that isn't necessarily reflective of the typical bank. In any case, I don't think MS is anywhere near a 'value' company. As you said, MS needs to pay out far more in dividends before people looking for income will buy it. You basically need around 3% to 5% dividend yield. With the new changes, MS will pay around 1% dividend. I think what MS will become is an IBM. You know, a blue-chip tech company with decent growth but not amazing growth.
Info came out after markets closed...
MS supposedly had negotiations to buy SAP. But that didn't go anywhere.
" One other thing - MS used to say they needed the cash hoard because they saw multiple imminent threats and needed a defense warchest. This could be an indication that they no longer see such threats as mortal. I still hope they're wrong!"
They actually said that the lawsuits have been mostly settled. Otherwise they wouldn't pay it out...
" I'm an investor in stocks, but I've always thought the employees deserved a bigger piece of the pie than the shareholder. "
Most capitalists would disagree with you... I'm ok with your view though, although I wouldn't do it exactly as you are suggesting. What companies should do is make equity ownership as part of their compensation. This already happens to some degree but it needs to be more popular. This way, anything that benefits the company benefits the workers--at least to some degree...
Since this is a one-time event and unexpected*, the price should go up by $3 tomorrow. Then it will drop by $3 on ex-dividend date. This is assuming that other events don't impact the price.
So the conspiracy theorist argument is correct. People who hold near-the-money options may benefit if the stock goes up $3 and the options become in-the-money.
(* The market tries to anticipate events but this is unexpected in the sense that no one knew exactly how much was going to be paid out and in what manner).
" By the way, at the share price ($28), $3 represents nearly 12% annualized retun. so for people with underperforming stock, unless MS stock goes down, it's an attractive stock." It's a one-time payment so "annualized return" is kind of misleading (it's true but only for one year). In any case, according to finance theory, the stock price should drop by $3 on the ex-dividend date (which is Nov 17--actually this is the record date, and I'm not sure what the ex-div date is). The stock price will rise $3 tomorrow (or as soon as the dividend information is available) and then it will fall $3 on the ex-dividend date. So you really do not profit unless you managed to own the stock before the dividend was announced*. Of course, other factors affect the stock price too so the price may not rise/fall by $3.
(* In reality, you would have had to buy the stock a few months back. Usually the market tries to anticipate events like this (whether they are right is another story). For instance, there was speculation as far back as 4 weeks ago that MS would pay out its dividend. So the present stock price would take that info into account).
Coming from Robert Novak, who also happens to be the guy who illegally (although inadvertently) carried out the wishes of the administration, does it mean anything? Shouldn't you, perhaps, pay attention to someone else?
Bill Gates is so rich that taxes are inconsequential to him (unless the govt starts expropriating 90%+ of his wealth). Whether he pays $1b in tax or $2b is totally irrelevant. He has more money than what can be "used".
"People who love developing software do it. I don't think OSS is anti-capitalist, rather, I think it is anti-corporatist. Our highway infrastructure(speaking yankee centric here) is not capitalist in nature, but has been a big boom to capitalist enterprise. I think OSS stands to be a big boon to that enterprise as well. "
But you do realize that under pure capitalism, you are supposed to privatize the roads too (in fact it's happening in some parts of the world).
The problem I see is that the people who love doing it don't have an incentive greater than those that get paid exclusively to develop software. You (and others) benefit and there is no doubt about it. But how many people would be willing to code just because they like it? Can these compete with funded software? For instance, linux is a great accomplishment but will it ever have the same marketshare as Microsoft? I have a feeling it won't, because the push and the motivation just isn't there. For example, can these products meet a tight deadline? Nope.
Furthermore, how will open-source survive in the world of patents (which are inherently capitalistic)? Going back to linux as an example, you can't even play certain video files (Windows Media format or Realplayer for example) without circumventing the patents.
I agree that there are immense benefits, particularly to poor countries, small businesses, and up-and-coming entrepreneurs. However, I don't know if it will survive.
But you wouldn't move permanently... all that would happen is that people will teleport all over the planet for work and then come home.... If teleportation is discovered, this is what will happen (I'm not saying it's good or bad)...
Companies would locate themselves to some attractive locations (eg. Bahamas, Switzerland, Singapore; or places like that). Then the workers would live wherever they want but teleport to work every morning and then come home. What will essentially happen is that the notion of countries will become obsolete. I mean, you could even have your workplace on the moon and teleport back and forth.
Sorry about replying late... just saw this now...
:)
You should get Bill Gates to do it--not Microsoft. I imagine it's easier to convince Bill Gates than MS
The problem is that the wealth discrepancy is huge so any changes will be drastic. Capitalists always bring up how people need to be innovative but the gap is very large. For instance, your innovation has to be roughly 4x "better" because wages are 4x lower in some of the poorer countries. This is going to be very difficult for those living in wealthier countries. When USA, for example, was competing with Japan in the 80's, the gap wasn't that large. When USA is competing with China, the gap is very large. The cost of labour (and consequently, the cost of anything: food, transportation, housing, etc) is much lower in these countries.
People in the wealthier countries are going to become poorer IMO. You can't do anything about it; that's just the way of life (study history and you'll see how USA was poor in the 1800's and Europe was rich). I think what will happen is the currency will devalue like crazy, and when that happens the wealthier countries will be just as competitive. To an average citizen, they won't be able to tell any difference directly (one $ is still one dollar) but their imports will become more expensive.
China is a totalitarian country. Their courts are controlled by the government. Don't believe me?
Having said that, they are trying to improve their legal system. I don't know how good is "good enough" but they are doing something.
I think open-source software is anti-capitalist so I don't know how things will work. For instance, who has the incentive to develop software if software companies can be easily replaced? I don't know... it remains to be seen...
There is no point responding to trolls but let me try...
First of all, most guys on battle.net are Korean, not Chinese (not that you would know the difference). Second, most of these are kids and teenagers. If I look at Americans, or Canadian, or Europeans, or whoever, people in that age group seem to be lacking teamwork as well. Lastly, you are a racist...