Slashdot Mirror
Microsoft Outsourcing High-Level Work
philistine writes "The Seattle Times reports
A Seattle labor group said it has new evidence that Microsoft is shifting high-level work to foreign contractors, including work on the next version of Windows. The evidence is a cache of Microsoft contracts with Indian technology vendors that were leaked to the Washington Alliance of Technology Workers, an AFL-CIO affiliate that has focused on outsourcing in its effort to organize tech workers."
A Seattle labor group said it has new evidence that Microsoft is shifting high-level work to foreign contractors, including work on the next version of Windows. The evidence is a cache of Microsoft contracts with Indian technology vendors that were leaked to the Washington Alliance of Technology Workers, an AFL-CIO affiliate that has focused on outsourcing in its effort to organize tech workers."
1) Who cares?
2) See question one.
Some quality code into Windows
All those hard working Indians are less apt to have bugs in their software!
What's with all these outsourcing stories lately? No wonder why this site is called "slash-DOT"
Linux will be free off all those foreign contributions.
Does this mean that MS Windows is now a security threat threat too? Because afterall, we could now have terrorists embedding code into Windows that is malicious!
For all I know the Indians might be better programmers but working on the law of averages the problem solving ability of an indivdual is probably independant of their location. So it really is about the cold, hard dollars. The thing is capitalism isn't any more free than communism. What good is being able to criticise your government when there is only a choice of two parties?
If you took Joe Six-pack and actually took the time to educate him on the fact that he can't mess with the chips in *HIS* playstation 2 legally because of some weird-ass law called the DCMA then I bet he'd see the onimous tone to it straight away..
Out sourcing is an evil plain and simple. Why should a company's profit be at the expense of an individuals welfare? Who has the most votes after all.. the individual or the company? Government should serve you and me before the MD
Simon
Are they outsourcing high-level work, or work on Windoze?
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
Are these new jobs, or taking away from current jobs in the states? Maybe this will speed development up on Longhorn... or maybe not..
Boxing Equipment Reviews
Of course, what was their excuse before this?
I was going to say something about the government taking issue with Microsoft outsourcing Windows code to non-Americans... how it might make it possible to introduce dangerous code, backdoors, security exceptions and all sorts of potential disasters.... ...and then I realized, well, how much worse could it be?
Are these outsourced workers going to be working on the same Windows code that Microsoft claimed would be a national security risk if it was ever exposed? Anyone else remember that?
The worlds largest company, flagship of US captitalism, but not interested in keeping the jobs at home.
That's Walmart.
Casual Games/Downloads
microsoft creating advanced technology... that's news!
How about we not worry about color schemes and we start worrying about how lame it is that they have put EVERYTHING in "IT". I was much happier when they used more intelligent sections.
Perhaps we also need to suggest that they add ipod.slashdot.org so that we can block out the daily foursome of stories about the stupid bullshit the fucking iPod can do while still reading about MacOS X zealotry.
Let's go Taco. We are subscribers and we are footing at least a portion of the bill. Listen to our concerns.
Good point, but it will not be heeded. After all, the Department of Homeland [IN]Security uses Windows.
You are being MICROattacked, from various angles, in a SOFT manner.
Dear slashdot editors, please remove this color scheme.
Thank you.
Not only is the color disgusting, but how about the logo in the upper left?
"It is what IT is?"
Yeah Slashdot, you really are.
Oh, and Apple Good, US Bad, Bush evil!
That's what I was thinking about. Really interesting to see how Microsoft responds to that question, here's one of their previous respond http://www.securityfocus.com/news/191
Here's what I don't get. If you take the URL for this article, replace it. with games. you get the games color scheme.
/. could be.
In other words, all that matters is slashdot.org, the "section" only adds the shitty color scheme.
So why not let users pick a scheme they like in user prefs? Personally I'd rather never see the games. or it. again, though it. is particularly crap-tastic, I honestly thought the games. was as ugly as
I don't need no instructions to know how to rock!!!!
Wow, first time I've been GLAD to hear about out-sourcing. Those Indian cats really know how to program! I'm glad to see the next version of Windows will have few bugs, a better UI, and actually be released on time...
how did that get Insightful? People have been bashing the colour scheme for a while now, and the post is totally off topic...... sorry
AMEN BROTHER!
A Seattle labor group said it has new evidence that Microsoft is shifting high-level work to foreign contractors
That's hardly surprising really, they're a multinational corporation, and everyone's foreigh to someone.
I donb't begrudge Slashdot working up a bit of controversy for ad hits, but stirring up racism is immoral imho.
The key to not getting bumped as a tech wage slave by outsourced labor is to not just learn a TECHNOLOGY, but learn a BUSINESS alongside it. Then your value will lie in the combination of business knowledge and tech know-how that you have. The kind of work value that this results in is not nearly so easily exported.
You click on the link and read the article and then you try to create a reply.
Instead we have "Write snarky remark, read article never - obviously the headlines tell the whole story.".
If you actually read the article, you'd see that the stuff being outsourced is 'glamourous' stuff like migration guides and testing tools - nothing relating to the kernel or even Avalon/UI.
This is just WashTech beating the union drum trying to scare people. If that's the best thta they can do, then there's a good reason there aren't techie unions.
I want to outsource my liver functions to India, that way I could drink all day and all night and my own liver would be fine.
How to Download YouTube Videos
Let's go Taco. We are subscribers and we are footing at least a portion of the bill. Listen to our concerns.
HA whatever! Like you're going to do anything! You'll gripe with your buddies a few times and then give up, quiet down, and resume the role of good little
No matter how much Taco makes
-*-
hitting bottom never felt so good
It's bad for MSFT et all to outsource programming work to cheaper labor markets.
It's good for corporations to expect Open Source zealots to write it all for free.
Cheap software takes away more jobs than free software?
I thought the whole point of the OS movement was to make the programmer completely irrelevant.
I don't need no instructions to know how to rock!!!!
I'll say it until people understand it or refute it: you cannot be both for free trade and against outsourcing. They are the same thing. There is no difference between importing computer hardware and importing software services (outsourcing) except in the particular sector affected.
Perhaps the ranters should send back all their hardware to Taiwan, Hong Kong, China, Malaysia, etc. and buy American!!
Imposing Libertarian views on everyone online since 1992.
hmm... that is interesting. if you just drop the "it." from the front, the color scheme disappears and you get the normal slashdot colors.
Casual Games/Downloads
Politicus
You know, the strangest thing that struck me about outsourcing is that a lot of the companies doing so are doing well BEFORE outsourcing. They do so in order to save money and increase profits. In turn, that translates to "growth" and better eyecandy for investors.
Not a lot of these companies are hurting for cash. They outsource for more money. I wonder if people would support such companies if they knew where the workers were from. I mean sure, the consumer saves a buck or so because of the cheaper labor...but will they be willing to pay that extra buck knowing they're supporting a competing but an absolutely "Made in the (insert country here)" product?
Unpatriotic? Are you high?
If a person leaves a New York, which has a state income tax, and moves to Texas, which has no state income tax, is he being disloyal to New York, or is he being smart?
Where is it written that American corporations have an obligation to hire American workers?
Microsoft has only one obligation, and that is to make money. The government, with its litigation, regulation, and taxation, has obviously made it hideously expensive to hire American workers, so the companies are outsourcing to India.
Sheesh.
Here's the god awful color again. How tough it this to change? Who decided on this horrible, horrible, horrible color scheme?
Color scheme decisions got outsourced.
this will mean either teh quality of MS code wil be either very very good or drastically bad which may end MSFT dominance., Indians are good programmers but not good designers. they how how to write code, but not why to write it this way vs some other way. they are truly a CHINA of software market. IF u send say a chair to be manufactured in china with a spelling mistake in installation guide, the chinese will send u 1000 of those chairs done as u want with the same spelling mistake,. they wont try to see or verify if there is a mistake,. they are a machine - input - output matters - whats in input doesnt .. Same with indian programmers - they can work day and night and code something - it most prbably will be bad design and in efficient - but it will work ..
The evidence is a cache of Microsoft contracts with Indian technology vendors
Isn't it strange how Slashdot's outsourcing stories are always about India and China?
They're never talking about shocking evidence of contracts with e.g. Canadian or Irish technology vendors.
Not that I'm suggesting that this is barely veiled racism. You can get modded down for being honest about that.
The real Ralph Yarro posts as Anonymous Coward. Anyone else is an impostor.
This is what happens when you want to keep your tech support jobs from being outsourced--they outsource upper level employees--they don't deal directly with customers.
well the sad part of the cycle is that--- coding is being outsourced overseas.. but then they enter into the yahoo chat rooms and ask questions from the american programmers.... I don't quite understand that part
Cool. Now cum with me.
Simply change your DNS records to resolve it.slashdot, games.slashdot, or whatever colour (yes, I'm British) scheme you don't like, and Robert's your proverbial uncle...
Personally, I've done so, except of apple.slashdot, which I quite like...
While you're petitioning for a change of the IT color scheme I'd like to bring attention to this purple monstrosity.
And to those saying the parent is offtopic, this color scheme is the equivalent to a 14 year old's Geocities page with white text on yellow background. It's just a bad design choice.
Best quote:
"Review is boring and time consuming, and it's hard," said Steve Lipner, manager of Microsoft's security response center. "Simply putting the source code out there and telling folks 'here it is' doesn't provide any assurance or degree of likelihood that the review will occur."
And if somethings hard, we just shouldn't do it, right? And "boring"! Like testing software is ever "fun".
So, MS's suggestion seems to be that, since it's kinda tough and not super fun to look through source code for problems, we just shouldn't bother having the source available at all. Great logic!
Casual Games/Downloads
Unfortunately this is a byproduct of the Internet and a borderless world it created.
Is it painful in the meantime? Yes, I was laid off before, it sucks. But I found work again and started over - you can too.
Can it be stopped? Yes, but not through government regulation, protectionism or trade barriers - these will fail, just like internet censorship and halting file sharing.
Will things change? They already have and we (the US and other countries affected by outsourcing) can either join the herd or turn off all the power in this country and start training people to be blacksmiths and farmers because the rest of the technological world will leave us behind.
Will I find a job? Finding a job has nothing to do with outsourcing. You are merely looking for a scapegoat for your inability to change.
Will I flip burgers? In ten years there will be a massive shortage of educated and experienced professionals worldwide. Global employment will be the only choice left. Flip burgers only if you want those meal discounts and the smell of french fries in the morning.
It only seems to work when you have a sid
It's a pattern that repeats itself every time the "editors" dick around with the fucking productions servers like this was still their little blog running on a 486 under their desks instead of a "serious" site that sells subscriptions and advertising and is supposed to make money for a company.
Well, at least now they can't use the "you're more than welcome to ask for your money back" witty retort because some people (like you) actually pay for it. Hey, if anything you do have the right to complain - except that there is nowhere to do that. So I think you'll be modded down "offtopic" (or better yet, overrated) and put in one of their blacklists.
Welcome to Slashdot!
That makes it funny!
i'm the jedidiahmarkfoster your parents warned you about
Would this be the same Microsoft who receives military and political protection from the US Government. The one who's US employees pay taxes, and whose family members serve in the military?
:-)
Microsoft has no written obligation to hire only American workers, I'll agree. But there is a certain "nationalism" which one expects a company to have.
As for Texas, I can't imagine anyone voluntarily moving to Texas being labelled as "smart."
Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
Well, profitability IS more important than abiding by ethics or laws. And outsourcing is good for our economy, right? Let's give them a tax break.
"A witty saying proves nothing." ~Voltaire
"d'Oh!" ~Homer
saying-good-bye-to-the-middle-class dept.
Forget the many economist that make arguments like this one, stating that outsourcing will ultimately benefit consumers...
Forget government data that downplays the significance of offshore work...
Forget the fact that companies like Microsoft sell millions of dollars worth of software to foreign countries around the world...
...and just jump to the conclusion that the entire US middle class is doomed.
Nice!
Based on upvotes, Ageism is the only "-ism" Slashdotters care about and think isn't SJW
If it was really cool/interesting/good to work on Windows, wouldn't the best hackers just voluntarily contribute their free time to improving it for free?
welcome our creamsoda loving overlords. I'd like to remind editors that as an anonymous coward I could be helpful in rounding up others to toil in their fiendish color-blindness experiments.
Could this be their reason for delaying Longhorn and 64 bit Windows XP?
Does this prove that Microsoft is no longer a software development company, but a monopolistic corporation that cares nothing about security, quality, release dates and focuses entirely on how to harvest the smallest penny of profit from their cash cow?
Andrew
Why did I lurk so long before registering for a Slashdot account? I could have had a Slashdot ID of less than 100000.
I just love the name of that union - "Washington Alliance of Technology Workers". As if it weren't 99.99% about organizing Microsoft's employees. Coy. Very coy.
Will this accelerate the formation of a Microsoft union? When MS outsources, the pickets go up?
Want to improve your Karma? Instead of "Post Anonymously", try the "Post Humously" option.
I want to defend the color scheme. We're both way off-topic, but it's kinda cool once you get used to it.
Please, like there can't possibly be any terrorists in the U.S. who could do the same, or for that matter, criminals who would compromise code for evil purposes other than terrorism.
This explains why WinXP SP2 has been delayed. Why Longhorn (aka cowpies from Redmond) has been delayed. Why 64-bit versions of Windows XP has been delayed. Why Windows 2003 Server SP1 has been delayed.
You know that the entire system is open-source, right? Why not fix it yourself. Make Slashtod XHTML 1.x compliant (DTD of your choice) while you're at it, eh? Thanks a bunch.
Actually, this wouldn't make such a bad project if I didn't work 50 hours a week... Maybe we should do this.
ha ha. you're still a dork.
- d00d did you hear the latest about M$?
- what?
- they're outsorcing most of their development work to Inidia d00d!!
- really???
- no shiet. I saw it on Slashdot. Windoze is being written in India and like
.NOT and Yukon and stuff!!
- OLOLOLOLOL!!!!!!!
Selective quoting and intentionally misleading write-ups. FUD, plain and simple. You whine when Microsoft does it to you, but you have no problem whatsoever in doing it to them.What Microsoft, and all these goat cheese for brain companies dont realize is, once most high paying jobs move out of US, who is going to buy their overprice crud? Do they see Chinese or Indians lining up to spend 300+ dollars to buy Office?
You aren't seeing Canadian or Irish outsourcing stories because it doesn't happen. This isn't a racial thing. Jobs go where salaries are low, and right now that means the far east.
I'm surprised no one has come to its defense, but I actually like this color scheme. I think it is much better than that lame standard green slashdot scheme.
I don't really see why this is worth talking about anyway. Who cares what it looks like as long as you can read it?
"Regardless of the project involved, Microsoft employees may have less leverage over wages with the company since it's hiring Indian vendors that provide engineers for as low as $18 per hour, Courtney said." $18/hour is not too far below the mark here in the US. The few dollars more an hour (and I do mean few) would be a pay increase if the cost of living is factored in!
nt
When products are imported at artificially low prices, we impose tariffs to keep things in balance for domestic suppliers (The recent shrimp fiasco is a perfect example).
Why the hell aren't we doing the same thing with companies that outsource? The coding and work that they get is saleable commodity with a set value. And it financially affects companies and people in this country in a negative way financially. Why not balance the scales?
"All I want is a warm bed and a kind word and unlimited power." - Ashleigh Brilliant
Try looking at it from their perspective....
the IT industry has been overrun with these 'certified' experts who in reality don't have a single ounce of experience. Sure, Microskills and all those other certification mills offer you to become a certified computer professional....yes, on paper. But you put one of those people in front of a broken machine and say 'fix it', you'll get a blank stare and a "but that wasn't on the test".
so now the employers have a choice...either pay a lotta money for locals that (for the most part) supposedly are hot shit but are entirely clueless....or they export their IT to overseas, where it's cheap and chances are the people actually know what they're talking about.
before your rant, yes, i too am certified. but i take pride in the fact that i learned my shit. i didn't just go through some course material, and payed $40 for a Q&A sheet that will let me pass the test with flying colors without knowing a single 'fact'. In all honesty, i probably wouldn't have the job that i now got if it wasn't for those certs. they're a great way to get someone's attention, but that's about it. you should earn your bread by actually knowing your stuff, not by pretending you do.
i think the industry is in a really shitty situation because of all these paper MCSEs (etc) that have flooded the market.
To those of you who have gotten by without getting certs, my hat off to you. Shame to those who used them to land a job that they don't deserve.
This sig contains repetition and redundancy.
Actually it can be. Here are some of the advantages:
- Lower Cost of Living, I bought a house in Austin for $100k
- More space
- Nobody looks strange at you when you date your sister or cousin
- You can date your farm animals
- With such a low average intelligence, you are much smarter than anyone else.
But there is one disadvantage: You are in Texas.Fight Spammers!
outsourcing will ultimately benefit consumers
Tell that to the guy who just had his job shipped out to some hellhole so most of the money he used to eke out his livelihood with can be sent to a bunch of fatass executives and investors. Doesn't help him, because he's not a consumer - he;s got no job, no place to get one, and he has no money to pay for anything!
"Your document has been checked for the spelling. Thank you, come again!"
Please understand that I was making fun of the CEO of the company that made the claims that Open Source is unsafe because of individuals contributing code from all over the world.
India is a country of 1bn people. If Microsoft wants equal access to the Indian market, it seems only fair that they have proportional numbers of developers in India, which means that you would expect 3x as many Microsoft developers in India than in the US.
quote from article:
"preparing user guides"
Huh? How are people who speak English as a second language supposed to write a legible set of user guides? Although to be fair it didn't say what language the guides are written in, maybe they are doing all the languages there.
Anyway....years ago I was warning white collar folks who kept laughing at me and saying I needed to "adjust my tin foil hat" when I said their jobs were next to be outsourced. That's back when "the new X-citing computar infotainment age" was going to make the blue collar jobs obsolete and everyone in the USA would be a computer operator of some kind, that those were the replacement jobs. OK, if the blue collar jobs get outsourced, and then the white collar jobs, what's left?
I wonder how many of those folks who were dissin me are still laughing now?
Anyway, point is moot, no matter WHAT they try to outsource, there are some jobs that HAVE to be done inside CONUS, now if we can get a handle on the borders better.....
The games color scheme is ugly, but at least it's readable since there is enough contrast between the text and background. This IT scheme, on the other hand, has some serious problems as the white text, for me anyway, kind blurs against the brown background. They could fix it by making the text black instead of white.
"People that quote themselves in their signatures bother me" - athakur999
Microsoft's outsourcing moves not only involve cutting costs, they also involve politics. Both China and India have very high rates of software piracy and as companies like Microsoft demand greater protection of intellectual property, they run the risk of pushing said countries into free open source software. If OSS becomes the standard in India or China, then Microsoft loses Windows and Office sales forever.
So in an effort to prevent the spread of OSS, Microsoft is investing millions of dollars into a research center in China and efforts in India. This makes big time political points too, which makes it less likely that the governments in either country will lock Microsoft out of the game with OSS. It's still risky though, as both India and China have made moves to encourage local software development on Linux.
Right now I'm betting that MS will eventually put a good portion of development in China where the labor costs are even less than India and it is politically more stable. But that's just a wild guess. In any case, low and mid level coders' days are numbered at MS.
To the making of books there is no end, so let's get started
....i'm not the only one whose jaw dropped that you can change them that easily?! Holy shit....beyond them picking this theme...it's not even that hard to change!!!!
...just stunned. wow. i figured guys that could "uber" code would do better than this. wow.
wow. damn. i really am
Where is it written that American corporations have an obligation to hire American workers?
Let's see - in the book of common decency and loyalty? Oh no, wait, how stupid of me - capitalism has only one master: the bottom line.
Check out ConsumersUnion.org operated by Consumer Reports. I can forsee consumers organizing along these lines, though perhaps in a stronger way. While it may not affect Microsoft and their monopoly, it may put the fear of god into most other corporations that are too focused on the bottom line and ignoring any social responsibilies.
BTM
That was the turning point of my life--I went from negative zero to positive zero.
So, I see "Microsoft Outsourcing High-Level Work" in the title of this article. And, I get myself all worked up. I mean...holy cow! Even Microsoft is selling out! The high level work is now going to other countries! And I thought I was safe, being a big fancy program manager.
And then, I realize...it's a false alarm. All I had to do was read the first line in the blurb. Haha...they're only outsourcing Windows. I thought they said "high level" work.
Whew. Don't scare an old guy like that!
It's pretty narrow minded to call it racism.
It's a fear of losing one's job by having one's employer tap into a lower-paid workforce.
The standard of living is threatened for all technical workers in the U.S. or similarly situated nations.
The same thing happened in the automotive industry with Japan. It worked out reasonably well, but only after a lot of bickering, regulation and hardship.
I've got an idea-- let's give Microsoft a tax cut to keep those jobs in the good ol' USA.
Losing jobs to overseas factories on the unskilled or low-skilled side is sad. Losing jobs on the highly-skilled side is scary, because reversing the trend will require years of major investment in education from K-12 up.
How this will be done in the face of the baby boom retiring is a mystery to me.
Although outsourcing is a major problem, I have seen several big companies dodge this current hot issue by setting up local shops overseas and then hiring the workers directly (for cheaper wages). This way they can say, "Hey look, we're not outsourcing, we're actually hiring more workers!" and yet still reap the rewards of cheaper overseas salaries.
The U.S. just slapped a tarif on shrimp imported from Equador for undercutting domestic shrimpers by a whopping 9%. And yet, when foreign technology firms undercut domestic producers by 75% we do nothing. Go figure. Pass the shrimp cocktail.
You get the normal scheme if you put something that is not a real color scheme also (like apples.slashdot.org)
----- "Type theory is like pretzels on crack." -- random friend
HAHAHAHHAAAHAHAAHAH!
whew. "highest skilled work . . . such as software development" that's a good one.
-ninjaneer
"But there is a certain "nationalism" which one expects a company to have."
Typed the geek using his computer built in and/or have components made in Taiwan, China, Malaysia, etc.
1f u c4n r34d th1s u r34lly n33d t0 g37 l41d
Microsoft is still growing. They're hiring more workers here in the US. According to this article, they're also hiring people in India (and other places as well, I'd assume). They've given programming jobs to the companies in India.
But they're still hiring programmers here, as well. So what's the problem? Should Microsoft hire only US workers? Should they only be allowed to grow here?
What I don't see here is Microsoft getting rid of their US workforce to hire in India. And (according to Microsoft's statements) most of the core work, and all the "IP development" is based here. And Microsoft is hiring more US workers as well.
In summary, this really doesn't appear to be a Big Deal. Now, 3Com dumping their product operation to pretty much outsource all their product development to Huawei? That's significant. But 3Com is just a shell of it's former self, so nobody really paid attention to that. When Linux starts being spread around the world, then I'll worry about globali...
(What? You say Linux isn't a US company? It's a global project already? Developed by volunteers? Oops...)
Um, never mind that last point!
-- Josh Turiel
"2. Do not eat iPod Shuffle."
I'd like to see that analyst, whoever it was, eat his words.
The United States should be using an open source platform developed in the United States and created for the United States.
Maybe some variant of *BSD?
The government, with its litigation, regulation, and taxation, has obviously made it hideously expensive to hire American workers, so the companies are outsourcing to India.
What is obvious to you, O Chanter Of The Conventional Line, is not quite so obvious to some of the rest of us. I bought this line for a long time, and there are elements of truth to it, but it misses the main point entirely. The overriding reason the companies are outsourcing is simply to take advantage of people who live in conditions of deprivation.
The AFL-CIO might oppose outsourcing but they are perfectly happy to flood the domestic market with cheap labor through immigration. http://www.aflcio.org/issuespolitics/immigration/n s01072004.cfm
Nota Bene: supporters of H1-B, outsourcing, globalism, etc. play the race card !!! It's like whining that "anybody who disagrees with me is a Prussian militarist".
Why does pro-American always have to be "racism" in their eyes? Despite the moderation, I think of the "hate america as racist" crowd are more "sick" than they are "insightful".
Aaah, that is so much better. You have our gratitude.
"You will soon be more aware of your growing awareness." - My first recursive fortune cookie!
I'll be really interested to see if the government has any reaction to this news...
That sounds great in principle. Care to give me a few examples?
Can you tell me how to run any kind of business, regardless of your know-how, when you are forbin to compete? What combination of technical and business knowledge can I have to make ink replacements when big dumb companies and the DMCA will prevent me from selling them? What kind of killer software can I write and service when M$ DRM gimps BIOS so that nothing but their junk will run on affordable hardware? Would my knowing some business school jazz like help me out when the law is keeping me form doing what other people would pay me to do?
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
Hey Hemos, I really like the MyOSDN that I had set up. One nice little snap shot that seemed to satisfy. What am I to do now?
Economist Paul A. Strassman has done several studies on the economics of outsourcing. He did a famous article in Computerworld in 1995 Outsourcing: A Game for Losers and a follow-up in 2002 Still A Loser's Game.
One of Strassman's major observations is that outsourcing is a telling symptom of a company in financial trouble, and an important signal to analysts and shareholders that its going to be a downhill ride. Now add that to old .com downhill indicator, MS has cancelled the free Soda...
I discovered that many people use a lower gamma setting than I do. "Games" looks okay at gamma 1.8 or so IMHO, which is perhaps not-entirely-coincidentally about what color-tastic or whatever they call it uses for "Color Balanced optimised for 3D gaming".
"IT" looks even worse than usual at higher gamma - the "RADIOACTIVE BEIGE OF THE END TIMES" effect is heightened, and it really does look frightening.
While I imagine that to some extent your trying to be funny, outsourcing a significant portion of the operating system could impact the use of the operating system in defense agencies. Software and operating systems used in defense agencies generally must be produced by a company located inside the country (which still requires a careful review). Exceptions are made on a case by case basis (Does the company have a significant presense in the country? Is the source code reviewed by the agency (NOTE: and use would only occur from a reviewed trusted source)?).
In the case of Microsoft products, I would imagine agencies doing careful reviews of the source code as well as the end product. I don't expect agencies to migrate as quickly as corporate users will.
how does this stack up versus this?
2 25 &tid=172&tid=218&tid=106
http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=04/07/27/143
members are seeing something, your seeing an ad
"Here's the god awful color again. How tough it this to change?"
It's easy. From the Slashdot login page, look to your left. You'll see your username. Click on 'preferences' right under it. Then click on the 'Homepage' tab. Just under the timezone bit, there's a checkbox next to 'light'. Click that. Slashdot will look barren at first, but it's easy to get used to. No more ugly color schemes and you get a less complex page.
Simple. Now quitcherbitchen. The color scheme isn't that bad. It aint great, but it's not +4 insightful.
"Derp de derp."
Outsourcing is a problem only because we have a slavery system. Our livelihood depends on working for others so we can pay our taxes. The reason that we have to work for others is that 99% of people have been deprived of an inheritance in the wealth of the land. Income property is owned by a few and the state. The others are slaves. Artists, programmers and inventors depend on their work to make a living. Can we blame them? We all depend on our labor because we are all slaves. So now we are swimming in a ocean of laws and rules that take away our remaining liberties, one by one.
Let's face it, if you cannot put a fence around it or put chains on it, it does not belong to you. Makes no difference whether it is ideas, writings, software, music or what have you. Once you've released it, like the air, it belongs to nobody and everybody.
Intellectual property owners (such as Microsoft and the music industry) will fight freedom with everything they've got. Right now they have two formidable weapons: IP laws and powerful police states to enforce them. But those who yearn to be free also have a formidable weapon, the internet.
The internet and other communication technologies (e.g., file sharing systems) are the first major kinks in the armor of a sick system. As technology progresses, the system will eventually collapse. What will happen to a slave-based economy when robots and advanced artificial intelligences replace everybody, i. e., when human labor, knowledge and expertise become worthless? It will be orders of magnitude worse than outsourcing.
And don't think for a minute this won't happen in your lifetime. The internet is the latest giant leap in human communication. Before that came mass telecommunication technologies and before that was the movable press. If history is any indication, we can expect a giant leap in technological progress and scientific knowledge. In fact, it is happening before our very eyes.
We should all demand a system where everybody is guaranteed income property, a piece of the pie, an estate if you will. There is plenty for everybody.
Communism confiscates all property and enslaves everybody. Capitalism gives property to a few and enslaves the rest. It's sad. The land should not be divided for a price. It should be an inheritance for us and our children and their children. It's the only way to guarantee freedom and a truly free market in a world where human labor is about to go the way of the dinosaurs. Demand liberty! Nothing less.
Gates isn't outsourcing to Palestine...
first paragraph on the page, then a huge breakdown of all the various languages there:
Republic of India, Bharat. National or official languages: Assamese, Bengali, Gujarati, Hindi, Kannada, Kashmiri, Malayalam, Marathi, Oriya, Panjabi, Sanskrit, Sindhi, Tamil, Telugu, Urdu, English (Associate Official). 1,000,000,000 (1999 IMA). 7% classified as tribals. Indo-Aryan languages: 491,087,116, 74.24%, Dravidian languages: 157,836,723, 23.86%, Austro-Asiatic languages 7,705,011, 1.16%, Tibeto-Burman languages 4,071,701,
Talk to people who use customer service-it's very difficult to engage in coversations and be understood adequately, both ways, more often than not. Close but no cigar is still "no cigar". There's a rather large difference between the english dialect used in India and United States styled dialects. It is such a big difference there's still a language problem.
How about we not worry about color schemes and we start worrying about how lame it is that they have put EVERYTHING in "IT". I was much happier when they used more intelligent sections.
I haven't figured out why they thought Slashdot needed an "IT" category in the first place. Let's think this through... this is Slashdot, right? There's nothing on here that isn't IT-related! Even the Science articles usually have an IT slant.
"IT" is clearly a "default" category. In that case, call it "Main-2" or something. Otherwise, it just looks silly. Or should I say, IT just looks silly. Whatever, IT is driving me nuts. And I just paid up my subscription... I do have a right to bi^H^Hcomplain.
Did you notice that they saved the halfway-decent color scheme for the new Linux section?
Stressed? Me? Of course not. Stress is what a rubber band feels before it breaks, silly.
Also note that M$ is hiding the practice. They are ashamed of it as it blows their "made in USA" FUD.
Free software has none of these problems and it's where real programming talent is these days. It's more American in spirit than M$'s control freak and swindle attitude was to begin with. Free press, market and competition are where the winners always go. M$ and it's armies of slaves are doomed to mediocrity and market place failure.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
walmart isn't even remotely the largest corporation
thing conglomerates people
Nothing else for it. I'll just have to commit suicide now.
Drill baby drill - on Mars
I already posted this today, but according to Jamie they are working on an XHTML compliant version.
Damn, that's my new sig. I'll give you credit.
This is notable not because it went to India. That's where everything is going these days, which is good for them. They are really booming... And they need it too.
What is notable is that Microsoft is doing the exact thing that people touting MS have been saying about open source.
I want those people to eat their words now. What will they say is better about MS over open source solutions now? That we can't see their source code?
And if somethings hard, we just shouldn't do it, right? And "boring"! Like testing software is ever "fun".
Why the hell should I work hard for someone else's benefit? It's not like I can modify the code and build myself a custom system.
"We returned the General to El Salvador, or maybe Guatemala, it's difficult to tell from 10,000 feet"
I'a a 25-year veteran of working as a software developer as both a permie and a consultant.
I know the politically-correct policy is to consider that programmers from countries such as India do reasonable work, but my experience is that it is just not true. I keep finding that the resultant source-code from outsourcing is abysmal.
I've worked on projects for several different companies where programming has been outsourced to India and Russia, and it has always cost way more money to put it right than outsourcing the project has saved.
I expect Microsoft will also find this out the hard way, and to the end-users disadvantage.
That might be because that's where the programming jobs are going, no?
They're never talking about shocking evidence of contracts with e.g. Canadian or Irish technology vendors.
Why don't you submit a story then?
Not that I'm suggesting that this is barely veiled racism.
Yes you did. It's a little less shocking when a US firm outsources to a place where most people speak English. Most people don't expect their English language word processor would come out well if it were coded by someone who writes Kanji. They might have some cultural differences and make assumptions that don't translate very well. India has a large English speaking population due to it's long colonial history. Even so, the cultural differences make for significant missunderstandings.
An any case, can you tell me why M$ wants to hide the shift? Shame?
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
You must be kidding!!!
On the off chance you are serious, I say:
Stop your bitching already, sheesh!
Ok, go to your Mozilla edit > preferences > appearance > colours.
Click the Use my Chosen Colors box
Make the colors with text black, background white.
That was easy, Huh?
Is MS by doing this admitting that the "bad guys" already have the source code either by intrusions or the PRC gave it to them?
So it doesn't matter who does the maintenance, evolution, replacement, advancement.
By being irresponsible with the knowledge they can now claim that export control doesn't make sense because the knowledge has already been "exported".
IMHO, Bill Gates seems to care nothing about the country that gave him the freedom to build his empire.
Comment about who trusts the Indians, I being a US citizen can go to Great Britian or Switzerland without a travel visa, an Indian citizen has to get a travel visa. I know that doesn't mean much or does it? Oh and to mod this up:
The WMD are in Syria.
We have Bin-Laden and have cloned him.
John Kerry is the real Manchrian Candidate.
Clinton could have perevented 9/11.
The Dems screwed up the Dave and Brevard County voting to cast doubt on the election in case their guy lost.
Crop circles are indicators that God has a sense of humor.
The world was destroyed on 9-11-01 and we are just virtual objects on a huge distributed system matrix.
And what ever happened to the Eugenics War thread in STTOS and STNG? When was it supposed to have happened?
Bush is the mind manipulating mutant ("the Mule") in the Second Foundation.
Supra et Ultra
You'll be in the competition!
Dogs look up to men; cats look down on men; But Pigs! Pigs can look men square in the eye. -Churchill
I hope they aren't going to hire offshore programmers. Wasn't there an article on Slashdot just the other day about how some terrorist rogue programmer might slip something awful into Linux and destroy the civilized world? The article said that the US government shouldn't use open source because of this bogus reason.
Seems to me that the government using proprietary code that has been out sourced would be an even greater risk.
The race isn't always to the swift... but that's the way to bet!
What are you guys talking about? This color scheme is GREAT! The soft tones are easy on the eyes, full of positive energy, and match the frame of my anti-glare screen perfectly!
Oh, and I'm gay.
--A/C
Yes, where is that recent article in the past week about OSS being open to terrrorist treats more than C-S-S.
happen to a slave-based economy when robots and advanced artificial intelligences replace everybody, i. e., when human labor, knowledge and expertise become worthless? It will be orders of magnitude worse than outsourcing.
Then it will be time for the great robot war!
D6 63 0D 70 89 81 BB 8E 7B 7C 5F 5D 54 EA AB 73
So then they'll use third-party contractors to do the dirty work, just like they do with e-mail spam and cleaning services. Therefore, the company is clean, it's just their contractors that suck and spam your mailbox or hire illegal aliens at below minimum wage.
Just ask Wal-Mart or XXX mortgage broker.
HBI's Law: Frequency of calling others Nazis is directly correlated with the likelihood of the accuser being Communist.
That's not what he's getting at, and your suggestion that it is is unreasonable.
Ignoring the history of Microsoft's product security at large the simple point he makes is a good one: opening the source for inspection is not the same as the source actually being inspected. In fact it takes some time and skill to inspect source for vulnerabilities, and it's a distinctly unglamourous job. And that's why the "it's open source, it must be secure" mantra rings plenty hollow -- very few people are interested enough to take the time.
Or did you never have to compile a new version of Apache, OpenSSH or OpenSSL to fix a security problem?
Here's the god awful color again. How tough it this to change? Who decided on this horrible, horrible, horrible color scheme? I have no idea, by I'm blaming TacoBoy!
Get with the times, old man. Colors are changing. You're getting older. You're going to die soon and so is your dog.
Where is it written that American corporations have an obligation to hire American workers?
Nowhere, Miss Anonymous Coward troll.
Where is it written that I have to send my kids off to die in some remote part of the world to protect their business interests way over there? Oh, wait... Where is it written that we couldn't possibly make corporations pay taxes, because that would cost American jobs? Oh, wait...
The deal used to be, we let corporations (and their investors) make a nice profit, we keep their taxes down, and we protect them militarily and politically. In exchange, they provide employment for us, allowing us access to food, shelter, and medical care. If they're not going to do the latter, why should we continue to do the former?
I know people who work there. They are no longer offering stock options packages to new employees, and there is talk of eliminating the 'free drinks' coolers. There are a lot of little signs like these that indicate that the management is trying to get to 'the bottom line'. While the Management want's to look as red white and blue as possible, they are probably feeling the sqeeze of a post-dotbomb recession economy. Outsourcing probably is looking pretty goot to some groups there.
;-)
Also, all those LINUX nuts out there keep pushing a 'hippy free love' OS on people, cutting into coporate sales. They are probably aggravating the problem, too...
We should all demand a system where everybody is guaranteed...
What's guaranteed to you may limit what I get. Who's right? Under your system: You, because you feel like a slave and want to receive, not earn. Yes, I know there is limited wealth, and people who earn more money are responsible for classes (low middle high, etc.), but trust me: Things would be much better if everyone was fighting for their best instead of just doing what it takes to be decent...
As long as the US government props up corrupt rich folks in the US using $500 Billion/year in foreign borrowing, it won't be practical to do _anything_ productive in the US.
However, the US government _is_ the world's premier mercenary entity in the world today(i.e. killing Arabs for oil). Microsoft products are important in quite a few defense applications. What kinds of issues are brought up by the fact that Microsoft is relying on a workforce intimately tied up in a politically unstable place in the world where it isn't unheard of for folks to be declared legally dead(and it may never get sorted out)? Can any "US" company really do a background check in India?
Islamic terrorists can do a lot of stuff in India(where there is a large, established population) they can't do in the US-what that means is that Indians in the US with relatives back home could easily be blackmailed by threatening those relatives.
I hate to think what kind of nasty cloak and dagger operations are going on at Microsoft right now.
Eh, what was it, 12, 14 years ago? Downsizing was all the rage and cause of much spillage of ink and political discussion. Yeah, I think Bush the elder was king of the 'downsizing' economy, and Bush the younger is king of the 'oursourcing' economy. Lets see, before then it was 'automation', and going way back, hah, 'industrialization'. Yeah, all those steam engines were putting laborers out of work!
try { do() || do_not(); } catch (JediException err) { yoda(err); }
Hasn't really bothered me as I use RSSReader and just grab the aggregate feed. For some reason they don't use the subdomains for posting stories in the RSS so when linking to the story from my reader I just get the good ol' green scheme.
I am a leaf on the wind. Watch how I soar.
My experience is that it does not matter to where you outsource it. Any job outsourced to another company can result in bad quality code.
Remember that every company will tell you how good the quality of their programmers is, how good their methodology is, etc. But in the end they just allocate a bunch of programmers to your job, and every time a new (= always more important) job comes in, the best people are moved to there and a new load of trainees continues on your work.
This can happen when you outsource to India, but it may just as well happen when you outsource to a reputable company in your own country.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
...how these economists/media/corporations can claim that outsourcing is good for the American consumer. I mean, to be a consumer, you've got to have money, but to have money, you've got to be an American worker.
Without jobs, there are no consumers. So what the bloody hell are these economists talking about that I'm missing?
This might be an interesting bookmarklet. Find your favorite style, then change the current slashdot page to that theme. Ok then, go ahead and Pick your style...
/. Filter needs more words. Here's a spam...
Plain Theme
Apache Theme
Apple Theme
Ask Theme
Books
BSD
Developers
Games
Interviews
IT
Linux
Science
YRO
Fred is up of used grace different it's discussion natural Latin to are discovery snorkeling gave writers to birth however to instead only down both
http://www.vasoftware.com/gateway/offshore21st.ph
John Kerry is a Joke!
If you were Joe CEO, what would look more impressive on your resume- that you increased profits by 70% (via outsourcing), or that revenue was flat?
Companies that outsource work are helping to create their own future competitors. There are companies that are being started in India and China based on the experience they gained by outsourcing work. The large IT vendors are outsourcing in the hopes of driving more profits, and they will, until the startups are big enough to say "Hey, we can do everything they can, and we're local!"
You're to FOAD. That's what you're to do.
CmdrTaco & Co
why must slashdot use that awful all-encompassing acronym?
I hate that thing.
"that thing"? There is a much easier way of saying that, as well you know! Repeat after me now, "I hate it".
>Personally I'd rather never see the games.
Funny thing, my corp firewall likes to block games.slashdot.org, so I just edit the url and I get to the page -- and as an added bonus, _not_ in the goofy purple colors!
There is much cruelty in the universe, John.
Yeah, we seem to have the tour map.
why?
why must you be such a grammer nazi?
I hate you!
I once uppercutted a kid for opening a window
Instead of cryptic memory addresses in the Blue Screen of Death, when your Windows box crashes you will see:
You have crashed! Thank you, come again!
Resumes are usually only important to someone when they're getting ready to jump ship.
This is your life. Take the Tech Worker Challenge.
I know places in the US where 18 USD/hr is a good wage. Maybe they should just relocate or outsource to other parts of the country....
"What's that?" came right after "How do you calculate distance between two points?" And that was followed by "Of course I graduated high school!"
This came from a developer I worked with. He didn't know how to compute the distance between two points and he didn't know what square root was.
Is it any surprise work is going to countries where their people actually know basic math?
Thank you public school system.
Lets say I make a dollar selling a product outside the United States, I'll pay the local tax on it and make a profit. If I move the dollar into the US, I will pay a 30+% corprate tax rate on it, allowing me to pay my local working $0.70 cents.
If I take that same dollar, and pay an Indian in India - I get to use the whole dollar to pay that employee (the indian government doesn't tax foriegn profits). Now if the Indian is willing to work for 1/2 the money as the US programer (1/4 if they are in California) I get a HUGE savings.
What does this mean - well for one, watch how international companies move parts of productivity overseas, so they can get goods taxed at the lowest tax rate. Watch how they will keep those profits overseas by moving R&D into overseas operations. Watch the great sucking sound that is our tax base leaving the US to foriegn soil - making individual taxes rise to make up for lost profits from corperations.
I have mod points and I am not afraid to use them
- "Clearly Microsoft is trying to increase profit margins at the expense of its U.S. employees," he intimidated^Wintimated^Wsaid.
In reality, it could just be that Microsoft is wanting to get the d@mn things done. But, a union could never suggest that, could it?When software developers unionize then you know programming has become a job anyone could do.
(I don't like unions in 2004 at all. Sorry. Yes, I daily crossed the picket lines in Southern California during the useless grocery workers strike.)
-- @rjamestaylor on Ello
Course if you DID make that comment, then you would be condemning Linux in spades...
If these allegations are true, then these future versions of Windows cannot be used in sensitive/secure/classified installations. End of story.
The sales they'll lose will far outweigh what they save on the labor. Better think about that, Mr. Gates.
Boycott everything - they're all trying to fuck you one way or another
"Where is it written that American corporations have an obligation to hire American workers"
On the same page where it says Americans companies exepect to sell their products to the US population. Right under the "Buy American!" heading.
"Only the small secrets need to be protected. The big ones are kept secret by public incredulity." - Marshall McLuhan
Its bad for the US Economy as a whole to outsource IT jobs. It causes brain drain by lowering professional salaries. Who is going to spend $100k for a college education if they can't get a job that can pay off their student loans. Eventually, foreign IT will have the knowledge and US companies will not be able to compete.
It's good for corporations to expect Open Source zealots to write it all for free.
Many companies are paying programmers to write open-source code. IBM is one of the biggest examples. As open source projects get better and better, companies are not locked into a single vendor which hurts software monopolies(i.e. Microsoft) Other vendors can take advantage of that. However, it will hurt companies like IBM as their products also get competition from open source but this will help the consumer.
Cheap software takes away more jobs than free software?
I am making an assumption on this one, but; if you mean cheap (proprietary and inexpensive) software takes jobs from free (even less expensive open-source) software... YES. If a company controls software they can charge high fees for development kits (compilers, debuggers, middleware etc..) which can create a high (monetary) barrier of entry that a small independent developer cannot afford. Open source allows everyone to have the tools necessary to develop software leveling the field so that an independent programmer can potentially compete with a larger company or fill a niche that a larger company is not interested in. Increased competetion creates more jobs.
I thought the whole point of the OS movement was to make the programmer completely irrelevant.Open source promotes the sharing of ideas. Programmers can take someone else's work and expand on it or build more things on top of it. Then they give their ideas back to open source and allow others to expand on their ideas. To me this makes programmers even more relevant.
Looking for a job?
Want your resume written professionally?
DON'T USE TUNAREZ!!!
you can't read it. THE DAMNED ELDER GOD OF THE RADIOACTIVE BEIGE OF THE END TIMES will strike you blind, yes you sir blind! in an act of unhoooooly vengeance, so sayeth the lord, before you get through the very first ten posts! which you'd realize if you weren't still high on pocky.
William S. Burroughs' writing really went downhill after he died.
SourceForge.net, an OSTG (a wholly-owned subsidiary of VA Software Corp., (NasdaqNM:LNUX - News) site, today released data reporting that the two Microsoft projects released under the company's "Shared Source Initiative" are in the top 5% of active projects hosted on SourceForge.net. SourceForge.net (www.sourceforge.net) is the collaborative development site founded to support and foster Open Source development projects, and currently hosts more than 80,000 projects on the site.
ADVERTISEMENT
Microsoft's two projects, WiX and WTL, represent the first time that the company has released projects on SourceForge.net. The Windows installer XML (WiX) software allows developers to build installation packages for Windows products was posted on SourceForge.net in April, and has received nearly 100,000 downloads in the first 100 days of its posting. The Windows Template Library (WTL), which allows developers to create graphic interfaces for Windows programs, is also in its third month of posting, and has received 19,000 downloads -- placing both projects in the top 5% of active projects on the site.
"We're not surprised to see this level of interest in the Microsoft projects," said Patrick McGovern, Director, SourceForge.net. "More than a quarter of the projects on SourceForge.net are Windows-related, and anything that makes developing for that platform easier is very attractive to our users. We're pleased that Microsoft has been testing the Open Source waters with an Open Source license on our site, and, judging by user response for the first three months, we look forward to hosting even more projects from Microsoft as they reach out to the Open Source community."
Oh man, thanks for that. Those colors give me a headache.
And it's not purple. It's most definitely blue. Not even a particularly garish blue.
But I'll agree with the OP--the beige IT color scheme is horrid.
He decided to just watch the government, and kind of scale it down to size, and run his life that way. --Laurie Anderson
Would you care to explain it?
A lot of the new work on the next XBox is going to Mexico. One would think with all of their profits they might be able to keep more work inside the USA, but it is obvious they only care about having more and more money for themselves.
But you'll also notice that those countries with people who live in conditions of deprivation don't have swarms of lawyers. "What, you won't let me cross dress in work? I'LL SUE YOU!!!"
1f u c4n r34d th1s u r34lly n33d t0 g37 l41d
Believe it or now, majority of millionaires in US are first generation millionaires. The reason being is that the children of millionaires tend to be spoiled and are more likely to blow their money away.
How about have the government provide a guaranteed income property, why don't you stop pissing away your money on stupid crap and use the money saved to buy your income property? Do you really want to government to chose your investment for you since they did such a great job with Social Security?
1f u c4n r34d th1s u r34lly n33d t0 g37 l41d
"Outsourcing is an evil, plain and simple"? Are you seriously that short-sighted, selfish and inward-looking?
.com craze and insisting they were worth $60,000 and up because they can vomit out functioning Java code or make a flashy web page. It's also in part because governments insist that it's your public duty to pay thousands of dollars in federal, state and local taxes and user fees. Finally, the consumers-at-large have to put their money where their mouths are. Americans invented the television but exactly ZERO are American made now. Why is that? Because Americans did not want to replace unskilled labour with robotics, wanted bigger and bigger raises and weren't willing to pay $1000 for a TV that Japan could make and sell for $500.
.COM bubble popped and the cash dried up. American code-monkeys will have to realise they aren't worth the insane salaries they were paid five years ago, and Indian ones will eventually figure out how valuable they are and start demanding more (I'll bet that's alreadey happening).
I'll bet those getting the work don't think it's so bad. The article states engineering services are outsourced at a rate of US$18/hour. A paltry rate by local standards but a princely sum in India, where that much per DAY would be heaven for the unwashed masses. What about less visible outsourcing examples? How about call centres moving from the US into eastern Canada? Seems to be a real shot in the arm for an economy dependent on depleting fishery stocks and government assistance.
Fact is, in a lot of cases OUTSOURCING IS A BLESSING. Things are 1000 percent better for the beneficiaries of IT/technical/professional outsourcing than they were when it happened for the textiles and manufacturing sectors. Tech companies aren't exactly setting up sweatshops where ten-year-old girls must work until their fingers bleed. India and other developing regions have benefited enormously by increasing living standards and diversifying their economies through providing technical services.
You talk about "profit at the expense of an individual's welfare". What about all those technicial people in India? Is their welfare less important than any other individuals? Do you expect them to sit in India and remain uneducated and unskilled? Must they have to spend their life savings to immigrate to the US, tehn work as a taxi driver for five years while they upgrade their credentials?
You're right about one thing...this IS basically about dollars. More work is becoming do-able from anywhere in the world, and the quality of the output is getting closer to equal. The global economy is also more capitalist than ever before, and all other things being equal the lowest bidder wins. Ironically, the result of this capitalist attitude seems to be tending slowly towards a global equalisation--something socialism and communism has tried and failed to achieve.
Outsourcing isn't the result of some evil master plan. It's the result, in part, of thousands of greedy Americans (and quite a few Canadians and Europeans to be sure) taking one or two year programming courses suring the
Well, the world is changing and the the USA is not an island (hell even island nations aren't islands anymore figuratively speaking). The
So what can be done? Outsourcing is a reality here to stay forever. Make sure it's done right, that the RECIPIENTS have proper living and working conditions. The world failed miserably at that when textiles were outsourced. The problem of sweatchops was ignored for too long while textile workers fought bitterly to keep their overpaid, unionised butts comfortable. If the US can't sell on price they'd better start selling on QUALITY, and the US has to "catch the next wave"--they have led the world in moving from agrarian to industrial to information/service based economies. Now the next wave is in sight. I'm not sure what that is yet, but it seems more knowledge/research-based than mere information based. North America
Before you suffer upon Texas the same thoughts-of-evil you might suffer upon India,
.com busts.
you should know some people are are outsourcing to Texas!
No state income tax, affordable housing, state schools are cheap and a large workforce of
highly educated people laid off after the Energy and
My money's on never.
This is another classic case of slashdotters flip floping on their values. Most slashdotters want MS to crash and burn, yet now they are arguing that MS shoudn't outsource because it's bad for it.
1f u c4n r34d th1s u r34lly n33d t0 g37 l41d
You aren't seeing Canadian or Irish outsourcing stories because it doesn't happen.
Really? Literally in less than five seconds I found this and this on Google.
It DOES happen, because Canadians and the Irish are not quite as "greedy" as Americans (ie. our salaries ARE lower). Canada is also attractive because of its proximity to the US and similar standards and practices--it makes up for the even cheaper wages in India. I was involed with a little outsourcing myself when I was self employed (I am Canadian--oddly enough with Irish ancestry).
You're right however, it has nothing to do with race. The reason I got the work instead of the Californians is because they wanted forty percent more money to do the same work. Probably becasue I didn't have to make payments on the Lexus or the half-million-dollar condo and they did.
When I was a kid they told me that we study history so that we do not repeat the mistakes of the past. So lets look at the past shall we?
What is the condition of the US auto industry today? Did they not outsource production? Do you think the Big Three gave the same reassurances that M$ and all the other companies are making? Shouldn't be to hard to find someone with that information. Do you think its easy to get a job with GM, Ford or Chrysler? Sorry, its not exactly easy even if you've got a family member thats been working with the company for 30 years. Unless you consider a lottery for who gets to put their family member on the list easy.
How about getting a nice job with a local company that does outsourced work down the street from a big three plant? Sorry, those are almost gone too..gone to where might you ask? Well, its not India but its close enough.
If you're going to complain about outsourcing, pay attention to it all across the board. Oh, you like your jetta? You don't like outsourcing to India? Perhaps you should reconsider your argument. I drive an american vehicle and it makes me angry that so much of it is manufactured overseas. But the big boys need their profit margin.
Oh, P.S. Don't start sputtering crap about how the prices go down (or stay down) from overseas manufacturing. The only thing that changes by shipping overseas is the profit margin for the folks on top.
As long as they were doing a good job writing code, why would you care what they wore at work? Most cross dressers I've seen have better taste in clothes than most geeks I've known, anyhow...
That is all.
but outsourcing programming is good. No, I don't understand why either.
Because it may offend others who'll sue instead. The point I'm trying to make isn't against crossdress, but rather how much of lawsuit happy many Americans became. Can't employers dictate even a simple dresscode without the fear of getting sued?
Most cross dressers I've seen have better taste in clothes than most geeks I've known, anyhow...
Can't argue with that!
1f u c4n r34d th1s u r34lly n33d t0 g37 l41d
Cool. I'll take your PC please.
Audit is guaranteed nowhere. Its just a question of probabilities. If you don't open the code, it will surely not be audited by outside folks.
if you just drop the "it." from the front, the color scheme disappears and you get the normal slashdot colors.
Wow, thanks, that's much better. That should go into the Slashdot survival guide.
This is great news, as it will only serve to reduce the quality of their product, AND their support services...
Perhaps if people get even worse products and get even more terrible 'help', they will start considering alternatives to using the monopoly as their main software vendor..
That and lets hope the union strings them up... ( and any other company that outsources.. )
---- Booth was a patriot ----
You communist freak. Get a job.
crap...I think they fixed it. It used to work a few minutes ago, but now I still get the shit color.
Get code out the door we will fix it latter. Really you cannot get much more malicious that telling a user ok we cannot fix that you will just have to reinstall you machine and spend the next 4 days getting the system back to what it was and hope the bug does not happen again.
And to top that off shiping machines without a firewall and marketing as a easy and simple to use machine and never telling users that they really need a firewall and a antivirus before they can use it online. And that they need a antivirus before they swap files with people. And they need to keep it upto date just so that one of there holes does not bite the system.
Basicly Microsoft cost companys billons per year in internal system stuffups from the products they have made. They cost home users alot of time.
The one I like is win98 is code to lockup on shutdown every so many shutdowns just because a programer did not want to write it the correct way and tell the use that they need to run a scandisk on startup. Boy has this made techs some simple money and cost home users. It was a pile for free $50 dollar bills Thanks Gates.
Basicly Windows is Malicious a Terrorist trying there best could not make it much worse than what it is now.
Now the thing that really makes me mad is the thought that user did x y z that all look vaild and vaild from the docs and telling the user no you cannot do x y z due to a code error and no we are not fixing it then charing them for being a help on there credit card.
yes, but why does it have to show up anyway? it.slashdot.org? how snotty can you get?
snotty? why yes! that's exactly what it looks like...a bunch of grey snot.
please delete that vile color scheme with its moronic catch phrase.
And it's not purple. It's most definitely blue. Not even a particularly garish blue.
Perhaps it's system dependent. Using Mozilla under Linux on a KDE desktop with a fairly new Compaq CRT monitor, the Games color is an aggravatingly bright bluish purple. It is definitely "garish", although not as hurtful as the new IT theme. I just had a thought - you don't suppose the *color guy* for Slashdot is partially color blind? It's pretty common in males. I've wondered before why Taco is so attached to such a dreary shade of green.
My employer has offices in several Indian cities. Not only is our high level work going over there, but the company actually brings them here on L-1 visas, pays them $10/hr to do our $70k/yr jobs, forces us to train them, and will not under any circumstances hire anyone in the US to fill vacancies before exhausting every L-1 or H1-B loophole they can find - and if they DO hire an American, it's a temp job w/o bennies or vacation or anything. Here's the kicker - if they end up contracting an American, that person is always someone of Indian descent that can speak the language - so they can communicate with all of the L-1 folks. Nice, eh?
I don't really see why this is worth talking about anyway. Who cares what it looks like as long as you can read it?
It's because people, including management, generally ignore me while passing by my cube. However, when I wear sunglasses, it draws attention.
The "Seattle labor group" referenced is well known in the Puget Sound area as a joke -- they're miniscule in numbered, about a half inch right of Karl Marx, and generally ignored. They scream loudly when Microsoft buys Taiwanese staplers.
Perhaps it's because most of us don't wish for Communism and controlled economies. Here's to people having the power choose whether or not to work and at what price.
Wrong. I realize that in this day and age, we only use Aristotelian logic, but in MY warped little world, I can accect a PERCENTAGE of Free Trade and a PERCENTAGE of offshoring without blowing a mental fuse.
If you bend any good idea to its extremes, it breaks down. If you manage to send enough decent-paying jobs overseas, it will no longer matter how much cheaper things become back here, because an insufficiently large purchasing population will exist to support the market.
And believe me, after over 2 solid years of unemployement, I'm not rushing to return to my old free-spending ways, even though the last few months have - for the moment - seen me employed again.
Albeit at a lower salary than before.
" If they where the same thing I could compete for the jobs being outsourced. Since I cant, this is not free trade."
That is a very good point. Companies never give their employees the chance to compete.
Most of the time, the company secretly enters into a contract with an outsourcing company, not necessarily overseas, and the employees affected are non-the-wiser. The company does not go back to its employees and say "Listen folks, we have this outsourcing company that says it can do your jobs for $XXXX dollars. What can you do to meet that? Can you convince us your worth more? Those mean shareholders are calling us names, saying we dont have it anymore, so we need to cut costs!"
Employees never know they are in competition until they get their pink slips. Even then, employees are usually not told who they are competing with.
/. originally ran on a Digital Multipla alpha workstation
pretty sexy box for it's time
Buttsex.
We had a couple of guys born, raised and educated in the U. S. A.. Both are talented. One was brilliant. But they were bad programmers. They were artists instead of engineers. They never finished the job. Every 9 months we got a new code set that did 60% of what the last one did. Then we had to enter into protracted negotiations to try to get to something that could be a product.
We ended up with a beautiful code set that was lacking in functionality. We finally put bandaids on the worst functinal deficiencies and moved on.
The guy from India just works circles around these U. S. guys. He is not burdened by a need to write the worlds most beautiful code set so he gets the job done.
Perhaps some of this outsourcing is due to a search for young software engineers who are adults instead of Prima Donnas.
discaimer: I am born and raised in the U.S.A. and like many many U. S. Citizens my ancestors are from Europle
Religion is the main cause of atheism.
From "The Dumbest Moments in Business History" Typos are mine.
One reason could be that good programmers can move to other countries just as easily as multinational companies can move jobs around. That means that the best Indian programmers will make just as much as the best US programmers (and chances are they work in the same offices).
Companies get what they pay for and shouldn't expect good programmers for bargain prices...
Now we just need a checkbox for "Make site actual legal HTML".
GCHQ Quantum Insert installed. If only our tongues were made of glass, how much more careful we would be when we speak
Does this mean that MS Windows is now a security threat threat too? Because afterall, we could now have terrorists embedding code into Windows that is malicious!
That's a silly supposition. Microsoft will employ the same stringent code review, testing, and applied obscurity that has made it the highly secure, NIH-approved, safe, and trustworthy (cue singers, softly: America the Beautiful, fade to slow-mo pan out of happy Windows laptop users looking at the statue of liberty while using IE and enjoying popups) platform that it is today. I hope you're not some software communist trying to subvert the Wind^H^H^H^HAmerican way.
- someone with terrorist sympathies, or
- someone with an axe to grind, or
- someone who woke up stupid/pissed off
from inserting something nasty. And it does happen. Sending code off-shore simply increases an exposure that was already there. Sleep tight.-- daecabhir (this mind intentionally left blank)
These frequent and nervous intolerant outsourcing rants seems to be just a US thing alwaying picking on foreign countries in a very serious concerted way over the past few months.
Are we going to hear about how this is a threat to "national security" like the Linux critics babble about?
Or is it that nobody uses Windows for defense work because it's too insecure to begin with?
Mod this troll! Mod this flamebait! Mod me -5! Is that all you got, huh? Are you nuts? Come at me!
Richard Steven Hack - This sig is TOO GODDAMN SHORT TO DO ANYTHING USEFUL WITH! MORONS!
Why should an individual's income be at the expense of everyone else's welfare (everyone owns a share in the company)? Why to you feel entitled to the money of those financing the whole operation? Is it simply out of habit? I'm not arguing that certain groups of people aren't hurt by outsourcing. But to act like we (the public) can dictate to people how to spend their own money is just plain socialism/communism in raw form. And we know how great that was for the common person.
----- Question authority, but not ours. Hate the man, but we're not him.
I remember it was some years ago that a story on the internet, probably on Slashdot, revealed the information about the next generation command shell for windows. the information about the shell's features was taken from a job posting on an Indian job site. The job posting was for Microsoft India. Another point is that it has been know publicly that companies like Infosys and Satyam are involved with the development of Longhorn and technologies such as .net. I remember once watching an interview of Bill Gates when he was in India. He was asked about the development of Longhorn and the Indian connection. Gates at that time didn't gave any straight forward answer but it wasn't a NO either.
I didn't think so.
What do their parents have to do with this? For job lost due to "lower priced competition", whether outsourcing or superior technology, there is a corresponding gain to the general public and to related industries. Let's use your steam shovel example. If steam shovels make the 100 guys obsolete, that means they are doing the same work for lower cost. The entire difference is distributed between the employer and the customer. This means both the employer and customer are now better off and have that money to spend in different areas, or they can build even more buildings. That money doesn't just dissappear, it simply ends up chasing some other demand in the economy. Which means more jobs somewhere else. It's simply a matter of where.
----- Question authority, but not ours. Hate the man, but we're not him.
The key to not getting bumped as a tech wage slave by outsourced labor is to not just learn a TECHNOLOGY, but learn a BUSINESS alongside it.
BULL! Most companies generally give diddly squat value to domain knowledge collected on the job by IT'ers. I don't know exactly what, but they just plain don't.
I suspect is it because geeks who know too much about the biz threaten PHB's turf by pointing out stupid biz practices directly or indirectly while implementing and fixing stuff.
Table-ized A.I.
Well some would argue that communism IS inherently evil, both morally and practically. Not to flame, I just don't concede the premise.
----- Question authority, but not ours. Hate the man, but we're not him.
They most certainly are not, they are built on free enterprise. It is true that you can assuage short term suffering, but you can only do it at the expense of future well being. It's simply a question of how much value you put on the present, and how much on the future. Kinda like deciding how much corn to eat and how much to save for seed. Resources, at any given moment, are limited.
----- Question authority, but not ours. Hate the man, but we're not him.
OMG, the "terrorist" word. Laalaalaalaa... Can't hear you... Laalalaaalalalalalaa...
http://www.alwayson-network.com/comments.php?id=48 76_0_1_0_C7 /more-immigration-is-right-anti-dote-to.html
http://ashishniti.blogspot.com/2004/0
Don't take my word for it. Take a look at the site of the New York State Teacher of The Year 1991, John Taylor Gatto (http://www.johntaylorgatto.com/). The US educational system (and Indian system it was baised on) is seriously flawed. You want to increase your school systems effectiveness? Get rid of them.
Most of my wife's co-workers will be quitting teaching just a few years after starting. My wife will quit within a few years too. This is because they have realzed the system is broken and can't be fixed. If you're looking for proponents of private schools and alternative education, just look at where a supprising number of your public school teachers send thier kids, even before they quit.
One of the best programmers I know is from the University of Life, School of Hard Knocks. One of the worst I ever met had a M.S. in Comp. Sci. from and Indian University. Education means shit. Learning means everything.
*** Sigs are a stupid waste of bandwidth.
FWIW, I'm just joe nobody AC that reads /. everyday, and I want to add to the color-scheme complaints. It's the worst scheme so far. Some of the actual colors aren't bad per-se, but the contrast is poor. It's blinding. I think this is just /.'s way of saying there are too many users and they'd like to reduce the number of users by annoying away the less dedicated fans among us.
Maybe El Reg should attach forums to each of their articles. eheh, there's a solution.
Now then, I've seen Hrundi V. Bakshis ruin some fine s/w products.
But what are they going to do to products already SNAFUed beyond any reasonable level?
A.) Will mistakes, slow work pace, lowest line of resistance, and oriental wievpoints of live, universe and software by a miracle make the next M$ product look and work good? Two wrongs don't make a right.
B.) Will M$ save money by outsourcing while retaining that famous "level of quality"? Honestly, most of the time M$ products give the impression of being crafted by a low-wage, non-dedicated and non motivated, ignorant crew - already!
C.) Will the spirit of Hrundi V. Bakshi prevail to push the M$ reputation below any level? Is M$ moving to a new line of business, leaving s/w behind to die a slow death? Any (reasonable) (american) company would only outsource stuff near the end of life-cycle: mature and obsolete products. But hey, why would M$ decisions have to be reasonable?
So, based on trend analysis, my money rests on C. Folks will just have one more reason to move away from M$ if those pricy licenses will no longer pay american workers wages...
microsoft outsources to India ?
Chris ,
Php Programmers.
Companies do not, have not and never will outsource because it results in good quality work. That's merely a lie to placate their customers. They outsource because it cuts costs and lower costs means higher stock price. Now given that most company directors have bonuses tied to rises in stock price, and the damage the outsourcing causes won't become apparent for a few years; it's pretty obvious why outsourcing is occuring.
heard of a complex corporate software project, which development was distributed in many different locations, and that succeeded? I mean all this communicational friction and losses, especially if non-technichal people are responsible for the communication and the decisions. Such projects, IMHO, are doomed to fail from the beginning.
IBM OS/400 stuff was developed centralized. Microsoft, say what you want, but they have/had centralized development with short communication.
The reason open source projects work decentralized is, that noone with no clue is in the middle, communication is direct without having to take care of manager ego and corporate agenda.
Just because I can imagine doing a hippopotamus, doesn't mean I'd like to do it.
Reuters are reporting that MS have denied that they are outsourcing their development to Indian contractors. :)
"you cannot be both for free trade and against outsourcing... Perhaps the ranters should send back all their hardware to Taiwan, Hong Kong, China, Malaysia, etc. and buy American!!"
1. Who said that we we *should* be for free trade? Given sufficient time & space, I could present some pretty worthwhile arguments against it, especially when the offshore sources bypass higher onshore standards for labor laws, etc.
2. re "buy American": hard to do if you don't know what's "American".
Nobody says it's wrong to boycott Anita-what's-her-name-o.j if you're gay.
Nobody says it was wrong to boycott South Africa for apartheid.
Whole cities (like Phoenix, AZ) and their convention business have been boycotted for their policies and practices.
So, what's wrong with boycotting businesses based on their offshoring?
You want to talk about "open"? Don't impose trade barriers which obstruct offshoring; let's just require complete freedom of information about it, so consumers can make informed choices.
THE KRANG SAYS: Brother Grifter speaks the truth. In the end foreign competition has come to effect the university system, the job market and a wide variety of other institutions in such a way that resources that those institutions provide (particularly the within university system) are now less excessible to the average american. In fact, foreign competition has in turn driven elements of many of those resources out of the country, and in most cases their is no system that assures that their is any form of compensation for the respective loss. Yo john this is the big O, what is your email?
That is plain bigotry. What makes Indians more likely to be terrorists than you americans? Forgot Charles Manson, McVeigh, etc? Shame on you.
Our experience was exactly the same. In the end, we decided to try to hire the better performing individuals (if legally and contractually possible), and mostly dump the indian companies. Since a few years we are mostly using hungarian and polish contractors, in-house.
Sigged!
MY EYES!
Beige sucks!
Well Microsoft strength has always been in marketing, maybe they're taking the position that "hey.. here's a novel idea, lets actually get a development house to do it!"
Stab in the dark really.
How much does your computer cost now? How much did they cost 10 years ago?
Ditto for most electronics, software (not products, but functions, when Netscape came out it costed 45 or so bucks, not browsers are free, ditto for desktop OSes, Linux is free).
The same can be said of many manufactured stuff.
In real terms life is cheaper, that is why people in rich countries take for granted to have a car, a TV, and hot water.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
We know you are not reading the /. articles that clearly state that people in other countries are not receiving slave wages.
You want to spread that misinformation, go ahead, just don't expect to go unchallenged.
So what are you? Ignorant or liar?
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
It seems to be quite good.
What you are advocating is that we become a subsistence farmers society, or what, is our plot of land going to feed us in autopilot mode or what?
I guess you are also a proponent of rigid population control, in the style of one child only policy in China, since otherwise your "inheritance" will srhink with each new generation of new forced farmers.
We, specialy in developped countries, live in an era when we are living longer, healtier (smokers, you suck) lifes, of food overabundance (in most developed countries obesity is becoming the #1 killer, followed by car accidents and perhaps AIDS, nothing to do with bad nourishment).
We can choses what we want to do for a living (horror of horrors, we have to work to obtain life necesities. Point us out to your golden age when this did not happen).
We can elect wo lead our societies (if you and your ilk chose Bush, Kerry or whoever and can't be arsed to even vote or get politically active, well, big duh for you)..
But somehow, in your dope induced haze we are slaves and the machines are out to get us.
Gimme somme of that herb please! Gimme some!
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
I have been in the same boat for around 15 years, the quality of work is always of higer standard when the work is done by Indian companies.
No complaints at all (save the natural ones that arise for integrating complex projects, which has nothing to do with nationalities).
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
You could have a point if the service provided by the Indian companies was charged below cost ( a practice which MS is quite familiar with).
The problem with your assumption is that life is cheaper in other places, which is reflected in the cost of labour.
Why is that? Because in India they have a population of millions (almost a billion) out of which only a precious few can offer high tech servcies. Those relatively few are willing to work for little money (compared to developed countries) because jobs are relatively scarce in poor societies.
So in other words, India, China and other countries have a competitive advantage. The US has enormous tracts of fertile land and thus can produce the cheapest meat and grain in the world, India has tons of people highly educated willing to work for less money.
That is not artificial, it is a reflection of economic realities.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
And do you suppose most of the anti-outsurcing geeks drive American made cars (or at lease cars mostly built in the plant located in US) or American made clothing?
For example, if everyone stopped buying Dell until Dell makes all of its computers in the US, Dell WILL start making its computers or go out of business. The problem is that it will drive Dell's prices up and consumers will start buying cheaper foreign made computers.
1f u c4n r34d th1s u r34lly n33d t0 g37 l41d
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
Microsoft sucks, outsourcing sucks, and so does this color scheme.
"In fact it takes some time and skill to inspect source for vulnerabilities"
from a microsoft victums point of view, more damning words were never spoken.
Whereas Bush could just say "I'm not very bright, just like you hillbilly morons". Which is far more dangerous to the Republic?
[1] at least where x isn't so small that we're only dealing with outliers.
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
Not sure I understand. It's a problem now, because I can't see the links!
- It's not the Macs I hate. It's Digg users. -
How could MS be doing this? They are the ritchest software company on the planet, they should _not_ be doing this for money reasons.
And what is even worse is that they are using companies like wipro. Why don't they start a MicroSoft office in India, and hire the programmers as MicroSoft employees?
I find it surprising nobody sees it this way, some companies may need to outsource for survival (or whatever), but I don't think that's the case with MS.
On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero.
Er, he did say "CEO".
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
sup O, its my first name plus my last name, in one word, @earthlink.net
Since when are indians terrorists you fucking idiots?
Whachamean? They're the same color as the text, see here: http:goat.cx.
I totally agree. If one would take Slashdot outsourcing stories seriously, one could conclude that half of the damn world lives in India and China!
This is very true. I think I hear at least 600 times more frequently about outsourcing to India and China than to Irenland. Why, are ask you? I'm sure there are as many competent people in Irenland as in India and China.
I think it is racism. What else? As a sidenote I might add that I have never read any Slashdot story about outsourcing any software work to USA. Interesting, is it not?
Sincerely,
Pan Tarhei Hosé, PhD.
"Homo sum et cogito ergo odi profanum vulgus et libido."
I think everyone can agree that there's been problems with some of the high level work at Microsoft.
I'm looking forward to seeing more global diversity in the MSFT CxO positions ASAP.
"Provided by the management for your protection."