None. All land is used by the organisms forming its ecosystem. If we double the number of humans, we must destroy their habitat and convert it to our needs, and through that we destroy entire species, simply to spread as much as possible. Right! We live, they die, get over it. Maybe we might have a use for some of them but otherwise it's evolution baby.
It is not empty. It is full of NATURE. Unexploited doesn't mean nonexistant. You know what? You are full of NATURE! You are, in fact, surrounded by nature! You are typing on nature in order to send electrons down the spine of a copper and glass part of nature. You are nature! Behold the eternal Dao!
What you haven't learned yet is that if the predictions are heeded and countermeasures are taken, tragedies are averted. The doomsayers had been saying for years that if a cat 4 or more hurricane were to hit New Orleans... but nothing was done. The doomsayers had been saying for years that if Haitians kept clearcutting the hills for fire wood... and their warnings fell on deaf ears. So you personally predicted Katrina and the deforestation of Haiti? Damn. Good call. I wonder why they didn't listen to you? It's unfortunate but jackasses have tried to command their fellow men by making up stories about coming apocalypse for years. Follow the gourd! It's the end of the world!! You happen to have bought into one or several of these eschatologist's dystopian myths.
If you weren't so ignorant, you'd know about all the tragedies that were foretold, and all the ones that were averted. If you weren't so ignorant, you'd know about all the prophecies that were foretold, and all the ones that were averted.
Hypocrite. On the contrary, you are the hypocrite. You are claiming that mankind is not natural. On the contrary, this is a universe that peoples. Mankind is an animal! We are not separate from nature. We ARE nature!
And I personally think we humans will leave this rock before overpopulation is an issue. But who the fuck are you to tell other human beings how many children they can or cannot have. Particularly based on your religious beliefs.
What you're suggesting is that some "visionary" humans should be able to use guns to prevent other humans from reproducing - to avoid an imagined apocalypse.
Thanks, but keep your religious beliefs to yourself.
Society is falling to pieces and people are mired in party politics? My god man! Why? Who gives a damn which party a person is from or whether they are charismatic or ugly or even have bad math skills. It's the ideas stupid! Lets get things done!
Your deep profundity intrigues me and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter.
But seriously, I'm NOT a Republican and I can see that your comment is drenched in anti-Republican hate. Get over it already. Let's unite to STOP FARM SUBSIDIES! Starting with food based ethanol that will cause the death of countless people because they can no longer afford food.
Why is this comment not marked Troll? It is an utterly vacuous collection of assertions which only serve to entrench partisanship in a discussion which could otherwise be informative.
At least have the decency to promote your ideas instead of your party.
If you go down to China Town and buy some knockoff Nikes they will not, if fact, be real Nikes. They *may* be higher quality products, they may be better designed. But they will not be Nikes.
This is the Apple argument. People pay exorbitant prices for commodity PCs strapped up with a BSD operating system and some shiny widgets. But they aren't buying that - they're buying an Apple. It's that simple.
I would try to explain it by saying that all equations are out there already in the same way that all integers are out there already. Once we had the idea for the infinite sequence of integers, we knew of every one of them. Even though mankind will never see most of the set. It's the same kind of relationship (a simpler one, but the same.)
Cheers
I agree with your assessment on algebra. It's entirely true, children of that age group lack the ability to understand. However, it's a fucking tit! You don't need to understand it. They jiggly bits women have under their shirts. They're not a mystery, they're not particularly special. They don't even have to be SEXUAL!
The same goes for the vagina and penis, incidentally. A child doesn't know that penises go into vaginae and mommy and daddy wantonly gyrate like a broken Tickle Me Elmo. You're the one who is imparting sexuality into genitals. A child can know of them but not know their significance or even think that there's anything special about them. THAT is true innocence. It's the fact that all adults stammer and look away when they're mentioned that cause such fascination. Which is mostly caused by a flawed Christian morality that somehow makes sex dirty and evil. Which it's not.
I agree with you completely, this whole EMF thing is fruitbats and frying pans. The trouble is, your arguments seems to say something you don't intend. You are essentially saying that the engineers who teach the classes and have PhDs tend to agree with the EMF nutballs. Even if they only agree when it actually matters (i.e. when their nuts are under the antenna.)
This makes me think, hmmm, I wonder if there's something to this whole thing?
When I worked for Big Retail Company I was in charge of the system that sent promotions out to users. We always got at least five people cursing at us for spamming them. It was incredible just how angry and irate people can get. The trouble was, the only way you could get on our email list is by saying yes to the cashier when they ask. In which case, they'd write your email address on a note card and the manager would type it in after closing. You'd actually have to watch them write it down! It just proves that some people are dimmer than others (and people REALLY hate spam.)
Excellent point. I just wanted to mention that Clinton had three assassination attempts in his first year. To quote the New York Times "Since Mr. Clinton moved to 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue, the White House has come under assault by a small plane that crashed under the President's bedroom last September and a deranged gunman who was recently convicted of trying to assassinate the President a month later when he fired shots that struck the building but did not injure anyone. In December, the mansion was struck by bullets fired from somewhere to the south, but investigators never determined if they were aimed at the White House." (link). He was the one who closed the road (see the congressional record here.
These kind of things don't make it into the mass media, you have to dig for them (it would upset people, after all.)
I've had two small business customers I deal with switch all their mail to GMail after a few weeks of using it. It Just Works. I don't think there's been as much of a innovation in e-mail since Eudora. Or maybe Pine. I hope they don't muck it up just to justify change. Customers need to feel that the product is improving, even when it's already a finished product. It's like politicians who create laws just to look like they're doing something.
Saying you can't own information is kind of silly. I have a thumb drive with my source code on it and I can choose to give it to you or not. Information is bound in the physical world, just like everything else. Even if it's bound up in the neurons of your brain. I can write this fact down and tell it to you, or not. Either way it's my choice. Alternatively, I can charge you for it. Just like Universities do with classes. Saying information is free is false in both senses of the term. It takes time to create so it's not free as in beer and it's only free as in speech if all the parties involve want it to be free as in speech.
Furthermore, it is the ownership of information and the inherent ability of people to agree on the terms of the distribution of information that allows free software to be possible. That's what the GPL is all about. I can say that the information I own should be shared freely. That necessarily requires the ability to determine the distribution terms of that information. It requires Copyright.
If I was going to try and vocalize the concept of evil. I'd say it lay quite close to someone claiming the death of 10,000 people makes for a quaint city. Were you joking then? I mean, saying "Y'know it'd really do if a couple million New Yorkers died. It'd make the place a little less stuffy." Doesn't that strike you as terrifyingly horrible? I mean, they are people after all. Even you don't think they smell nice.
I'd bet that you wouldn't ever think of dying to make your city a bit quainter for others, would you?
Haha, yeah. Let's just assume that he kept logs of everything coming out the ports. He could be arrested by said government(s) on possession of child pornography. I mean, it's pretty likely he's possessing some.
If governments and embassies are using it then it's likely the system is relatively secure. What's likely to have happened is the Tor code was audited by said government(s) and found to be legit. Then the clueless diplomats were told "Hey, we've setup an anonymous browsing system for you. Browse away." Then the said diplomats go out and start browsing, thinking they're completely secure (i.e. don't need encryption, it's anonymous right?) The rest is history.
I wonder about the intelligence of sniffing Tor exit ports, then mentioning you've found some (unnamed) diplomats browsing with it. I mean, you may feel like James Bond but getting loaded into the back of a van in the middle of the night isn't any fun. Neither is having the skin peeled off your fingers one at a time.
I absolutely agree. Cisco (Linksys) or Belkin could instantly create such a network if they incorporated the functionality into their 802.11abgn routers. Add an anonymous secure networking protocol that throttled usage based on resources (and gave priority to the connection owner.) This is what causes people to close off routers after all (read jackasses who bittorrent all day long on your open connection.)
If every router was open we'd already have the system in place. Then you could use a Skype phone or similar to make calls.
If only this made sense for the big telecoms. It'd be awesome.
From the Wikipedia entry you quoted "What Nietzsche meant by 'morality' deviates from common understanding of this term.". Don't go foisting your morality on us with sly word games. Nietzsche was completely bonkers. He spent most of his life making up categories for different things and rambling on about them. Your post seems to indicate that you didn't get the joke.
Having worked on large scale projects at different companies in many languages; Perl, C++, C, C#, Java, PHP, Python, Ruby and COBOL (yes, COBOL.) I can say that Ruby seems to have the best balance of power vs. cleanliness (although it lacks the built in functionality of Java or the sizeable Perl CPAN.) Java and C# manage complexity very well but lack the power of a scripting language. Python seems to be equal to Perl in its ability to manage complexity. It all comes down to programmer discipline. One company I worked for had two million lines of Perl in their main product! Because they had good programming practices it was very easy to maintain (OOP programmed and POD documentation for everything.) On the other hand, I've been handed Java code to maintain that was a mess. Poorly named methods, mysterious inheritance quirks and completely undocumented algorithms (i.e. lots of for loops with j and i variables.) To summarize with a famous quote "Developers! Developers! Developers! Developers!".
I am torn between modding this up or commenting on it, I have obviously decided to do the latter. In nearly every aspect of modern education (at least in the United States) the hands-on application of theory is under emphasized. How many years do we learn math fundamentals before we actually get to practical application of the principles? I think this has the negative outcome of discouraging students from jobs in the hard sciences. It is difficult for a student to see how useful a skill will be without actual application of that skill.
Wouldn't algebra seem a great deal more interesting if it was taught in a basic electronics class? Ohms law is a great way to demonstrate applied algebra. At the very least it shows how math can be useful. Later portions of the class could be taught using computer programming. Fractals could show how imaginary numbers are useful and graphic demos could show how to use trig functions to create cool patterns. This would be something ANYONE could get into, not just geeks. The knowledge must seem useful in order for someone to want to study it.
Which brings us to the fundamental problem; the subject matter is critical but students don't take it seriously. As citizens of a modern world we must exercise a wide variety of skills in order to be successful. Yet, most students don't realize this or make any effort. If students did consider writing important to their success in life then they would write their own research papers. This problem is an exponent of educational culture and I'm not really sure what we can do about it.
I appreciate your taking the time to respond to my post. I'm fairly ignorant when it comes to issues of intellectual property. Which is why I still have to wonder; why is it you believe these things? What are your reasons? Is it because you believe you have the right to the author's work for free within a time period you find reasonable? If that is the case, why do you believe you have this right?
How do "free" copies of media benefit man-kind? Moreover, how do these free copies benefit mankind more than costly ones? It would seem to me that the vast majority of modern content would not be beneficial (i.e. Mickey Mouse) or is already available for free via public libraries.
Why do you believe you have the right to decide in the first place? Isn't the decision of who to sell to up to the artist? In other words shouldn't they be able to sell to a third party if they want to?
I apologize for additional questions, I've heard this ideology espoused quite a bit on Slashdot and have yet to see answers to these questions. And judging from the eloquence and forcefulness of your original post I'm sure you are capable of a sound response.
Those of you who puff out your chests and call people who download movies or music "Criminals" are also not adding anything to the discussion. Yes, I've personally experienced having my own work copied and losing revenue because of it. No it did not me want to stop having new ideas and being creative.
I think there's some truth to what you say. I suppose it's true that artists will always produce art. But I might wonder if they'll be able to make a living from their art. It's true that the media companies make large profits off the work of their artists. But the artists who don't work for them are even poorer than those who do.
I think it's just possible there's something beyond all this. Some idea which needs to be acknowledged. Why should we decide whether a man can sell his ideas for money? That's where this whole thing leads. Whether or not the producer controls the distribution of his product.
You seem to be very angry that the producer can charge for it. You even use lots of loaded words like 'vampire' to describe the collectors. But I don't understand why. Why shouldn't a man be able to charge whatever he can get for his work? Why should we get it for free? It's his work, not yours or mine. He has a right to charge whatever he wishes.
If we were to take his work we would be the vampires. And the thing that we would hunt is the pure artist. The artist who produces even though he isn't paid.
I can't find a donation link either, so I guess promoting the project would be a great thing to do!:)
I'm not the main graphics design guy (girl in this case) at our company. I'm just the system administrator, I just showed Scribus to her and she liked it so much we switched. We have been publishing books since 1992. Our first book was done in Professional Page for the Amiga. When we switched to Mac after it became clear that the Amiga was a goner we chose QuarkXPress (I think it was version 3.3 but I could be wrong.)
I'm just mentioning this to accentuate the fact that the product is being used in a real publishing environment. We've published 5 books using Scribus and it's worked great so far. Our books are very graphic layout intensive (we publish art curriculum). They usually include hundreds of pages with unique layouts on each one - containing thousands of high resolution color images. Scribus does great! Thanks guys! Get a donation link!
Slashdot Mirror
Unexploited doesn't mean nonexistant. You know what? You are full of NATURE! You are, in fact, surrounded by nature! You are typing on nature in order to send electrons down the spine of a copper and glass part of nature. You are nature! Behold the eternal Dao! What you haven't learned yet is that if the predictions are heeded and countermeasures are taken, tragedies are averted.
The doomsayers had been saying for years that if a cat 4 or more hurricane were to hit New Orleans... but nothing was done.
The doomsayers had been saying for years that if Haitians kept clearcutting the hills for fire wood... and their warnings fell on deaf ears. So you personally predicted Katrina and the deforestation of Haiti? Damn. Good call. I wonder why they didn't listen to you? It's unfortunate but jackasses have tried to command their fellow men by making up stories about coming apocalypse for years. Follow the gourd! It's the end of the world!! You happen to have bought into one or several of these eschatologist's dystopian myths. If you weren't so ignorant, you'd know about all the tragedies that were foretold, and all the ones that were averted. If you weren't so ignorant, you'd know about all the prophecies that were foretold, and all the ones that were averted. Hypocrite. On the contrary, you are the hypocrite. You are claiming that mankind is not natural. On the contrary, this is a universe that peoples. Mankind is an animal! We are not separate from nature. We ARE nature!
And I personally think we humans will leave this rock before overpopulation is an issue. But who the fuck are you to tell other human beings how many children they can or cannot have. Particularly based on your religious beliefs.
What you're suggesting is that some "visionary" humans should be able to use guns to prevent other humans from reproducing - to avoid an imagined apocalypse.
Thanks, but keep your religious beliefs to yourself.
Amen! Hurrrumph! Hurrumph!
Society is falling to pieces and people are mired in party politics? My god man! Why? Who gives a damn which party a person is from or whether they are charismatic or ugly or even have bad math skills. It's the ideas stupid! Lets get things done!
Cheers.
Your deep profundity intrigues me and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter.
But seriously, I'm NOT a Republican and I can see that your comment is drenched in anti-Republican hate. Get over it already. Let's unite to STOP FARM SUBSIDIES! Starting with food based ethanol that will cause the death of countless people because they can no longer afford food.
Why is this comment not marked Troll? It is an utterly vacuous collection of assertions which only serve to entrench partisanship in a discussion which could otherwise be informative.
At least have the decency to promote your ideas instead of your party.
Cheers
If you go down to China Town and buy some knockoff Nikes they will not, if fact, be real Nikes. They *may* be higher quality products, they may be better designed. But they will not be Nikes.
This is the Apple argument. People pay exorbitant prices for commodity PCs strapped up with a BSD operating system and some shiny widgets. But they aren't buying that - they're buying an Apple. It's that simple.
Good for them, I'll stick with Ubuntu thanks.
I would try to explain it by saying that all equations are out there already in the same way that all integers are out there already. Once we had the idea for the infinite sequence of integers, we knew of every one of them. Even though mankind will never see most of the set. It's the same kind of relationship (a simpler one, but the same.) Cheers
And the 2038k problem solves itself, thus vindicating Ken Thompson and pessimists everywhere.
Maybe I'm just stoned, but I read the article heading as:
RIAA Sells a License for DJs to Format Shit Music
Which seems to make more sense.
I agree with your assessment on algebra. It's entirely true, children of that age group lack the ability to understand. However, it's a fucking tit! You don't need to understand it. They jiggly bits women have under their shirts. They're not a mystery, they're not particularly special. They don't even have to be SEXUAL!
The same goes for the vagina and penis, incidentally. A child doesn't know that penises go into vaginae and mommy and daddy wantonly gyrate like a broken Tickle Me Elmo. You're the one who is imparting sexuality into genitals. A child can know of them but not know their significance or even think that there's anything special about them. THAT is true innocence. It's the fact that all adults stammer and look away when they're mentioned that cause such fascination. Which is mostly caused by a flawed Christian morality that somehow makes sex dirty and evil. Which it's not.
I agree with you completely, this whole EMF thing is fruitbats and frying pans. The trouble is, your arguments seems to say something you don't intend. You are essentially saying that the engineers who teach the classes and have PhDs tend to agree with the EMF nutballs. Even if they only agree when it actually matters (i.e. when their nuts are under the antenna.)
This makes me think, hmmm, I wonder if there's something to this whole thing?
Maybe we should have a marathon for mice? Whichever GM team can make the fastest mouse wins!
When I worked for Big Retail Company I was in charge of the system that sent promotions out to users. We always got at least five people cursing at us for spamming them. It was incredible just how angry and irate people can get. The trouble was, the only way you could get on our email list is by saying yes to the cashier when they ask. In which case, they'd write your email address on a note card and the manager would type it in after closing. You'd actually have to watch them write it down! It just proves that some people are dimmer than others (and people REALLY hate spam.)
It'sh the corporashuns man! The corporashuns! Hey, puff puff pass! As I was saying, it'sh the coporashuns oppressing us all the time.
Excellent point. I just wanted to mention that Clinton had three assassination attempts in his first year. To quote the New York Times "Since Mr. Clinton moved to 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue, the White House has come under assault by a small plane that crashed under the President's bedroom last September and a deranged gunman who was recently convicted of trying to assassinate the President a month later when he fired shots that struck the building but did not injure anyone. In December, the mansion was struck by bullets fired from somewhere to the south, but investigators never determined if they were aimed at the White House." (link). He was the one who closed the road (see the congressional record here.
These kind of things don't make it into the mass media, you have to dig for them (it would upset people, after all.)
I've had two small business customers I deal with switch all their mail to GMail after a few weeks of using it. It Just Works. I don't think there's been as much of a innovation in e-mail since Eudora. Or maybe Pine. I hope they don't muck it up just to justify change. Customers need to feel that the product is improving, even when it's already a finished product. It's like politicians who create laws just to look like they're doing something.
Saying you can't own information is kind of silly. I have a thumb drive with my source code on it and I can choose to give it to you or not. Information is bound in the physical world, just like everything else. Even if it's bound up in the neurons of your brain. I can write this fact down and tell it to you, or not. Either way it's my choice. Alternatively, I can charge you for it. Just like Universities do with classes. Saying information is free is false in both senses of the term. It takes time to create so it's not free as in beer and it's only free as in speech if all the parties involve want it to be free as in speech.
Furthermore, it is the ownership of information and the inherent ability of people to agree on the terms of the distribution of information that allows free software to be possible. That's what the GPL is all about. I can say that the information I own should be shared freely. That necessarily requires the ability to determine the distribution terms of that information. It requires Copyright.
Cheers
If I was going to try and vocalize the concept of evil. I'd say it lay quite close to someone claiming the death of 10,000 people makes for a quaint city. Were you joking then? I mean, saying "Y'know it'd really do if a couple million New Yorkers died. It'd make the place a little less stuffy." Doesn't that strike you as terrifyingly horrible? I mean, they are people after all. Even you don't think they smell nice.
I'd bet that you wouldn't ever think of dying to make your city a bit quainter for others, would you?
Haha, yeah. Let's just assume that he kept logs of everything coming out the ports. He could be arrested by said government(s) on possession of child pornography. I mean, it's pretty likely he's possessing some.
If governments and embassies are using it then it's likely the system is relatively secure. What's likely to have happened is the Tor code was audited by said government(s) and found to be legit. Then the clueless diplomats were told "Hey, we've setup an anonymous browsing system for you. Browse away." Then the said diplomats go out and start browsing, thinking they're completely secure (i.e. don't need encryption, it's anonymous right?) The rest is history.
I wonder about the intelligence of sniffing Tor exit ports, then mentioning you've found some (unnamed) diplomats browsing with it. I mean, you may feel like James Bond but getting loaded into the back of a van in the middle of the night isn't any fun. Neither is having the skin peeled off your fingers one at a time.
Just saying.
I absolutely agree. Cisco (Linksys) or Belkin could instantly create such a network if they incorporated the functionality into their 802.11abgn routers. Add an anonymous secure networking protocol that throttled usage based on resources (and gave priority to the connection owner.) This is what causes people to close off routers after all (read jackasses who bittorrent all day long on your open connection.)
If every router was open we'd already have the system in place. Then you could use a Skype phone or similar to make calls.
If only this made sense for the big telecoms. It'd be awesome.
From the Wikipedia entry you quoted "What Nietzsche meant by 'morality' deviates from common understanding of this term.". Don't go foisting your morality on us with sly word games. Nietzsche was completely bonkers. He spent most of his life making up categories for different things and rambling on about them. Your post seems to indicate that you didn't get the joke.
Having worked on large scale projects at different companies in many languages; Perl, C++, C, C#, Java, PHP, Python, Ruby and COBOL (yes, COBOL.) I can say that Ruby seems to have the best balance of power vs. cleanliness (although it lacks the built in functionality of Java or the sizeable Perl CPAN.) Java and C# manage complexity very well but lack the power of a scripting language. Python seems to be equal to Perl in its ability to manage complexity. It all comes down to programmer discipline. One company I worked for had two million lines of Perl in their main product! Because they had good programming practices it was very easy to maintain (OOP programmed and POD documentation for everything.) On the other hand, I've been handed Java code to maintain that was a mess. Poorly named methods, mysterious inheritance quirks and completely undocumented algorithms (i.e. lots of for loops with j and i variables.) To summarize with a famous quote "Developers! Developers! Developers! Developers!".
I am torn between modding this up or commenting on it, I have obviously decided to do the latter. In nearly every aspect of modern education (at least in the United States) the hands-on application of theory is under emphasized. How many years do we learn math fundamentals before we actually get to practical application of the principles? I think this has the negative outcome of discouraging students from jobs in the hard sciences. It is difficult for a student to see how useful a skill will be without actual application of that skill.
Wouldn't algebra seem a great deal more interesting if it was taught in a basic electronics class? Ohms law is a great way to demonstrate applied algebra. At the very least it shows how math can be useful. Later portions of the class could be taught using computer programming. Fractals could show how imaginary numbers are useful and graphic demos could show how to use trig functions to create cool patterns. This would be something ANYONE could get into, not just geeks. The knowledge must seem useful in order for someone to want to study it.
Which brings us to the fundamental problem; the subject matter is critical but students don't take it seriously. As citizens of a modern world we must exercise a wide variety of skills in order to be successful. Yet, most students don't realize this or make any effort. If students did consider writing important to their success in life then they would write their own research papers. This problem is an exponent of educational culture and I'm not really sure what we can do about it.
I appreciate your taking the time to respond to my post. I'm fairly ignorant when it comes to issues of intellectual property. Which is why I still have to wonder; why is it you believe these things? What are your reasons? Is it because you believe you have the right to the author's work for free within a time period you find reasonable? If that is the case, why do you believe you have this right?
How do "free" copies of media benefit man-kind? Moreover, how do these free copies benefit mankind more than costly ones? It would seem to me that the vast majority of modern content would not be beneficial (i.e. Mickey Mouse) or is already available for free via public libraries.
Why do you believe you have the right to decide in the first place? Isn't the decision of who to sell to up to the artist? In other words shouldn't they be able to sell to a third party if they want to?
I apologize for additional questions, I've heard this ideology espoused quite a bit on Slashdot and have yet to see answers to these questions. And judging from the eloquence and forcefulness of your original post I'm sure you are capable of a sound response.
I think there's some truth to what you say. I suppose it's true that artists will always produce art. But I might wonder if they'll be able to make a living from their art. It's true that the media companies make large profits off the work of their artists. But the artists who don't work for them are even poorer than those who do.
I think it's just possible there's something beyond all this. Some idea which needs to be acknowledged. Why should we decide whether a man can sell his ideas for money? That's where this whole thing leads. Whether or not the producer controls the distribution of his product.
You seem to be very angry that the producer can charge for it. You even use lots of loaded words like 'vampire' to describe the collectors. But I don't understand why. Why shouldn't a man be able to charge whatever he can get for his work? Why should we get it for free? It's his work, not yours or mine. He has a right to charge whatever he wishes.
If we were to take his work we would be the vampires. And the thing that we would hunt is the pure artist. The artist who produces even though he isn't paid.
I can't find a donation link either, so I guess promoting the project would be a great thing to do! :)
I'm not the main graphics design guy (girl in this case) at our company. I'm just the system administrator, I just showed Scribus to her and she liked it so much we switched. We have been publishing books since 1992. Our first book was done in Professional Page for the Amiga. When we switched to Mac after it became clear that the Amiga was a goner we chose QuarkXPress (I think it was version 3.3 but I could be wrong.)
I'm just mentioning this to accentuate the fact that the product is being used in a real publishing environment. We've published 5 books using Scribus and it's worked great so far. Our books are very graphic layout intensive (we publish art curriculum). They usually include hundreds of pages with unique layouts on each one - containing thousands of high resolution color images. Scribus does great! Thanks guys! Get a donation link!