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Airlines Have to Ask Permission to Fly 72 Hours Early
twitter wrote to mention that the TSA (Transport Security Administration) has released a new set of proposed rules that is raising quite a stir among groups ranging from the ACLU to the American Society of Travel Agents. Under the new rules airlines would be required to submit a passenger manifest (including full name, sex, date of birth, and redress number) for all flights departing, arriving, or flying over the United States at least 72 hours prior to departure. Boarding passes will only be issued to those passengers that have been cleared. "Hasbrouck submitted that requiring clearance in order to travel violates the US First Amendment right of assembly, the central claim in John Gilmore's case against the US government over the requirement to show photo ID for domestic travel. [...] ACLU's Barry Steinhardt quoted press reports of 500,000 to 750,000 people on the watch list (of which the no-fly list is a subset). 'If there are that many terrorists in the US, we'd all be dead.' TSA representative Kip Hawley noted that the list has been carefully investigated and halved over the last year. 'Half of grossly bloated is still bloated,' Steinhardt replied."
When I was the young guy with no family- I remember having to go home from work one day, pack, come back to work, then drive to Portland to catch a flight in under 3 hours, while the travel agent got me boarding passes at the call desk.
I'd suggest that certain people be allowed to willingly give up privacy in return for fast track at the airport through the TSA.
SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.
I love how the slashdot headline screams this like it has already taken affect.
In fact, its a set of proposed rules that hasn't even come close to be implemented yet.
This story is bad enough without slashdot trying to spice it up with sensational headlines and scaremongering. How about some real editing around here?
Say goodbye to last minute business travel = say goodbye to important meetings = say goodbye to business dealings = say goodbye to the economy...
Back when I was young, the Soviet Union required internal passports... Seems to me that things are rapidly progressing that way here.... Maybe it's time to emigrate to Russia now that they're freer than Americans in America.
Knowing exactly when and where someone is traveling to with 72 hours notice...naw this will never be abused.
Clerk at Airport: "I'm sorry Mrs. Clinton, there seems to be a mix up, you're not clear to fly, don't worry we can get it fixed and have you on the same flight in three days. What? Oh the presidential debate is tonight? Hmm, well I might be able to get you on tomorrow..."
flying on time ? :-)
I guess last minute flights are out the window then huh? It's not like people don't have emergencies that require them to be across the country by tomorrow. I'm sure the counterargument is that "it does us no good to discover that someone 'suspicious' was on a flight that landed two days ago, he might have been a bomber!", but frankly I don't think the extra security is worth the inconvenience in this case. I know that is a rather cavalier thing to say, but in essence all security measures like this are a tradeoff vs. convenience and I feel this one goes way too far.
I read the internet for the articles.
Where we have our very own Iron Curtain (it just goes the other way).
Here's the progression:
No, we don't let you in.
You can leave, but not with your money.
You can leave, just give us 72 hours to make sure you're not on our list of Bad People (anyone we don't like).
"you can check out anytime you like, but you can never leave"
They ARE out to get you simply because They are in it for themselves and they don't care about you.
rights aside, what if I need to fly out at a moment's notice. okay, most nations need visa so we have enough margin to buy tickets early but what about Canada? (I am not aware of other nations that let US citizens in without obtaining prior clearance.)
All American citizens who wish to retain their freedom of movement should immediately begin informing their local authorities whenever they travel, no matter the distance or means of transport. Imagine how quickly the police, FBI, CIA, TSA, et cetera will get tired reports filed by self-reporting citizens explaining in detail that they need to go to work, stop by the grocery store, or visit their cousin in Roxbury....
Apparently the TSA has forgotten that this is America and we go where we like when we like and how we like (unless we're in prison, of course) without Uncle Sam knowing where we are. Like the commercial says, " we are free to move about the country."
...Open Source isn't the only answer -- but it's almost always a better value than the alternatives...
"Airlines may have to submit passenger list 72 hours before flight," or perhaps "No airline tickets to be issued within 72 hrs of departure" as better headlines. I'm sure others can come up with better ones. The headline as written just doesn't parse well.
I think this is ridiculous, and the TSA and DHS have gotten way out of hand. What's worse is that I know people who think it's actually making us safer. Sad. Truly sad.
Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
How many people have missed their flight and caught a later one the same day?
Imagine being stuck 3 days before you can go home.
My grandfather died a few years ago, and I was on a plane the next day to visit with family. Now, it ended up that he wasn't buried until the following week, but if he had been buried sooner and I had had to wait 3 days prior to flying out, I would've missed his funeral.
This'll never fly.
I stole this sig from a more creative user.
Go fuck yourselves.
Sincerely, the rest of the world.
The TSA seems to be doing all it can to kill the U.S. economy by making travel even more of a nightmare. I know plenty of business travelers that don't know their schedule 72 hours in advance -- they go where ever they are needed when ever they are needed. The more red tape a country throws down at the border, the less business that people will do here.
I'm sure bin Laden is laughing in his cave right now. He's used a classic martial arts move -- using the strength of the opponent against the opponent. Bin Laden wants to the isolate the U.S. from the world and the TSA is doing a great job of that.
Two wrongs don't make a right, but three lefts do.
The Government in general, and specifically this administration, seems to want to be Orwellian in what it knows about everyone.
I remember in the 90's when the Secret Service first started closing off traffic near the White House. The easy North/South move on the West side got bogged down from the traffic problems: Penn Ave N of the White House is shut down; E Street S. of the White House is shut down. There is now an area of eight blocks where you can't go West without going North, or South. Under Clinton, the street got opened - for about a week until some bombing far away.
It's not that I object to security. It's just I object to security that pushes attacks onto innocents & away from those who "incited" the attacks in the first place.
I also remember being able to get onto planes without any time consuming security screening. Now we have to wait for everything to be checked forever. The screening does not make us any more secure*, it just takes longer.
Go big propaganda fear-mongering! we didn't need the free time to get to anywhere anyhow. If we did, we'd all be rich enough to have our own planes.
*: The airline screening does not really make us more secure, as there are still ways to get shit on a plane: Metal Detectors test for guns sold in the US, not guns sold outside the US with lower metal content. Or Ceramic guns. Or Knives without metal (say those nice expensive Kyoceria ceramic knives).
If you like: 2/3rds of a passenger planes cargo is other than passengers and their baggage: It's Air Freight packages. Those packages could easily hold a bomb. Or a passenger could check a bomb with a wireless control that can be carried in the cabin.
the only thing that has been done in the name of security that makes planes more secure was making real security doors on the Pilot's compartment.
If something this silly were enacted, it might be possible to get to a last-minute travel destination faster via Amtrak than by plane...despite some of their trains being up to 18 hours late occasionally.
Greyhound?? Eeesh...let's not even go there.
These guys do not deserve to have a budget. If a terrorist tries to take over your plane, you get up and kick his ass. No need for all this fear mongering and travel inconvenience. It's just make work for security contractors that does absolutely nothing. The best guarantee of your safety are your fists, and not someone elses forms.
This is my sig.
They can have my privacy when they pry it out of my cold, dead, fingers. It's simple, folks. Don't fly. I know, I know, we all want to line up at the gates to the abattoir like good little government programmed automatons, but this will do nothing but show them we deserve jackboots kicking in our doors. Do the right thing. Just don't buy their crap. Don't fly. When the airlines start losing money out the ass, then maybe they'll see we're not to be made victims due to idiot fundamentalist extremists, or government abuse of power, or to said government's inability to protect anyone. Hit them where it hurts, folks: in the pocketbook. I'm willing to bet that if over 200 million Americans decided not to fly for a few months, you'd see them scramble to change things.
I've always dreamed of having enough money and spare time to pack a small suitcase, go to the airport, look at the departure boards, figure out what's leaving in the next couple of hours, and buy a first-class ticket to a destination I've never visited before.
What? I have to know three days in advance everywhere I want to go?
Shit.
I guess I'll just have to dream about having enough money to have my own Gulfstream, since once you get to that level of wealth, the rules that apply to the little people are no longer a problem.
If you can keep up the pace, you can drive by car between any 2 points in the continental US in 72 hours: 60mph * 72h = 4320 miles. If you've got an emergency, you're better off driving, no matter how far.
What do you mean they cut the power? How can they cut the power, man? They're animals!
From the PDF for the PROPOSED rule changes (not even final yet, still in public comment phase!):
"Additionally, for reservations made within 72 hours of scheduled flight departure time, covered aircraft operators would be required to transmit Secure Flight Passenger Data as soon as possible."
The TSA is just asking airlines to send what they have 72 hours prior to the flight, so they can correct false alarms earlier and do a better job of identifying problems.
RTFPDF.
Sounds good to me.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
I hate laws like these. They promote the current trend of being afraid. That's the whole goal of terrorists. It costs so much more to operate an airline now. Millions upon millions of people fly ever year. You have more of a chance of dying in a car crash than dying in a plane. But you never hear that statistic when you see a "Horrible plane crash!" news line.
I refuse to be afraid of this. I refuse to support any measure that would protect me 1% more if it took away my rights. This does that. I refuse to live my life afraid of dying when it takes me 2 hours to get through airline security when it should take 20minutes max.
I don't travel by plane at all anymore because of this. I go to Canada once per year and now I HAVE to get a passport because of paranoid people.
Stop being afraid, start defending your rights or we're going to end up needing permission to travel between states.
Sadly, if these was implemented, it would probably be an inconvenience for many people. Heck, let's do the same for people traveling from US to Europe. Maybe symmetric action on this matter will open more eyes. Actually, we could do much more. We could put up a farce of unuseful landing checkings for everyone from US. Certainly it will do both sides harm, but at least it's fair ;)
So let me get this straight. There are 500,000 to 750,000 suspected terrorists in this country, yet we haven't had a major attack since 9/11/2001?
There are 300M people in the US. Are you seriously telling me that at least 1 in 600 is on a terrorist watch list?
Something tells me that getting onto a terrorist watch list involves something other than being a terrorist. Otherwise, this just doesn't make any sense.
They don't grade fathers, but if your daughter's a stripper, you fucked up. --Chris Rock
I suspect that along about the 3rd time a Congresscritter needs to fly home in a hurry, and can't, this regulation is going to go away -- assuming it gets through in the first place.
- Robin
Sad but true.
So... If someone misses a connexion he'll have to wait for three days? Excuse me while go and buy a cheap motel and a car rental place dangerously close to an airport.
My left arm is all scars and I consider that a valid excuse...
What sort of computers are the TSA using if it takes 3 days to match a name to a database.
What century are we living in?
1 hour before boarding is reasonable. Allows data entry and organization for response.
Anything more is just a sloppy system.
This is just a deliberately outrageous proposal so that their real goals don't seem so bad. Like when we had a guy yesterday saying that $9250 per song wasn't so bad because it could have been $150,000. This is how parents deal with children. Interesting that it seems to work on the majority of the adult population (including many /.ers).
I had a glimpse of the original story:
Lord Twitter, slayer of the dark lord William of Gates, wrote to mention that the M$A has released a new set of proposed rules that is raising quite a stir among groups ranging from the ACLU to the Free penguin society. Under the new rules everyone would be required to install Micro$oft software on all computers everywhere. M$ would then be using M$ to M$ and M$, with M$ and M$. Occasionally M$ and M$ would have to M$.
It goes downhill from there.
Yeah, I don't like twit ter
Hardly the ball-buster everyone is making it out to be.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
IMHO Osma won, allowed a more rapid trashing of the Constitution. Since 9/11, the pretext of security everywhere and Patriot Act are much greater dangers to most US citizens. I have never been threatened by an international terrorist, although there was a little misunderstanding with a Cuban soldier some years ago in southern Africa. I have seen several countries pre- and post- revolution. However, since 9/11 I have seen several things that make me question my safety around various "security" agents here at home, public or private, more than with the agitated Cuban soldier (probably longer, more continuous exposure, more deferential attitudes in some places, and fewer allowances here for strangers).
We could just about go back to pre-9/11 levels of airport security but keep the stronger cockpit doors, and everything would be fine.
Why? Because I pity the fool who would try to hijack a flight in the US nowadays. The days of "just cooperate with them and everything'll be cool" are OVER. The other passengers will enthusiastically tear him/them apart. For that not to happen, there'd have to be more terrorists than regular passengers on the plane by a comfortable margin.
How dare you throw those facts and common sense into our outrage! We live in a fascist society, and our false assumptions and made up facts about this new policy prove it. Now stop bothering us so we can continue to hide in terror from the made up robotic insects that aren't actually watching us.
When my father-in-law passed away, we had to take a flight the day after we heard the news. My wife is from Indonesia, and it was about a 30-hour plane trip to get there. Adding 72 hours to this would simply be unacceptable as it would likely have caused us to miss the funeral (in Indonesia, it is custom to have an open casket memorial lasting for up to 3-4 days and then bury the body-- this starts almost immediately after the body has been embalmed).
Seems like time to write to Congress.
LedgerSMB: Open source Accounting/ERP
I have already decided that I'm not going to visit the USA any more because it's just too much hassle. So if it's made more hassle then that won't have any effect on me.
___ ...
Agent: I need a seat on your next flight to Seattle.
clerk: I'm sorry sir, I can't clear you for a flight less than 3 days out
Agent: But there's a possible terror attack planned for today and I need to get there to investigate.
clerk: Sorry sir. TSA rules.....
Agent: But I work for the TSA!
clerk: <grins from ear to ear> Nothing I can do. Excuse me, I have another customer to take care of.
Sometimes boldness is in fashion. Sometimes only the brave will be bold.
The fact remains that the very thing we keep hearing those 'trrists' hate, freedom, is essentially dead in this country. For all the talk of how we're supposedly spreading freedom to an occupied country, it's just that, talk, since this administration is hell bent on destroying those very same freedoms in this country.
Between this newest revelation to track when people go on flights, requiring a national ID card, listening to our phone conversations without a warrant to preventing people from paying their bills until the source of their money is ok'd, we no longer live in a truly free society.
Oh sure, I can write this without fear of being arrested, but can I go on a flight without being classified as a threat? What does the file the FBI (and at least one other three-letter agency) have on me (and they do) say?
Bin Laden and his cohorts are probably laughing* in their cave at how they've succeeded in their first goal of undermining our society. How many times a week do we hear about law enforcement going into apoplectic seizures when someone thinks they saw some shifty character hanging around somewhere or an innocent package left behind shuts down some place?
It's a sad state of affairs when the people of this country don't care that their right to be free has been taken away from them. After all, there's those un-reality shows to watch. That the people who only a decade or so ago were crowing about how America is the greatest country on the planet, with all kinds of freedoms not enjoyed by many other countries, are now so willing to go along with this administration's excuses about why the rights enshrined in the Constitution must be taken away to protect them.
The quote about give them an inch and they'll take a mile certainly applies to this administration. Even worse, whoever comes into power next won't have the balls to undo the vast majority of wrongs being perpetrated against society but will instead be more concerned about getting re-elected than serving the people.
The rights of the Constitution had a good run of what, over two hundred years? Not bad all things considered. Now though, we are moving into a new era which will require citizens to involuntarily give up rights which have existed since the founding of the country in an effort to defeat terrorism. It will be a long, never-ending battle but by giving up our rights and acquiescing to the newest form a facist police-like-state, we can be assured that we will be safe and secure in our wiretapped, surveillanced, dwellings.
* I'm assuming that like most leaders, the rules they want to impose on others does not apply to them
We will bankrupt ourselves in the vain search for absolute security. -- Dwight D. Eisenhower
Well, the drive to visit my family takes fewer than three days so there's no point in flying if they implement these rules. Driving is more expensive and time consuming it's true, but I enjoy driving a lot more than flying. Besides, who needs the aggravation of having to stand in a hour-long lines and rampant privacy violations? The only time I'd bother flying is if I were leaving the country for whatever reason (vacation, or perhaps fleeing a repressive government hell-bent on micromanaging my life at the expense of everything our founding fathers held dear).
First, for everyone who is screaming about their privacy rights being violated, they're not. You have no right to move and interact in the public with others and remain anonymous. You are not free to travel US airspace in any way you see fit. Never have been. The government controls airspace and air travel, and can do whatever it pleases.
HOWEVER... this is a terrible policy proposal. It seeks to impose very real hardships on air travelers while providing no benefit whatsoever. You can't realistically eliminate emergency air travel, or even last-minute travel for business travelers. What about missed connections? Is it really feasible to make someone wait three days to finish a travel leg because of an airline delay? No, it is not. These cases represent a significant number of passengers. If you make exceptions for them, it casts doubt on the reasoning for the policy. If you don't, you can literally cripple the air travel industry, which in case no one noticed isn't exactly going gangbusters right now.
This was the danger of increasingly federalizing airport security -- now the TSA seeks to promote its own mammoth growth. The only group to benefit from this proposal is the TSA. Imagine the budget they'd have to have in order to implement this program. They've now become a typical government agency.
...but the document linked in TFA states clearly that airlines have to provide said data to the TSA 72 hours before departure for all confirmed passengers they have...this doesn't mean that you can't book a ticket under 72 hours, or get on that plane. They realized that 90% or so of passengers are booked over 72 hours to departure, and that way they can clean up the last-minute fliers faster.
That being said, its still bullshit, without a doubt. But its NOT going to stop last-minute fliers from being able to fly.
And again, its not that this isn't complete horseshit, but they're already passing your infromation to the TSA - they're just doing it within 15 minutes of departure now (or 15 minutes after departure for international flights).
09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0
No more emergency repairs! Tell the customer that you'll be there in three days, and to call the DHS if they have a problem with waiting for you.
Seriously, what the hell? The guy is a fucking idiot
I fail to see any part of the proposal that forbids booking in that 72 hour window. Rather, it seems that since the bulk of the bookings are complete before the 72 hour window, the TSA screening process will start with the bulk of the final manifest well ahead of time, reducing the amount of last-minute screw-ups. Bookings added to the manifest within the 72 hour window are simply forwarded to TSA promptly in a piece-meal fashion - not banned.
When asked to comment on this new policy, the President had this to say "Get off my planes."
Which is why I'm wondering why in the post-9/11 environment we don't see more "luxury semi-private-charter" type thingies showing up with smaller planes, where they drive you out to the flight line from your home. No time-wasting trip through airport security. No "arrive at least 3hrs before your flight." In fact, if you're 5 minutes late they'd.. just wait for you.
Have you priced it? I have. $500 for a commercial flight, or $3500 for a charter from the Chicago area to North Carolina. Which do you think most people's budgets will let them choose?
Kinda makes the market for that type of service a little small. Anyone who can afford to spend that much on a flight, already does.
Putting moderation advice in your
...all you need is a little $30-40K Piper Cherokee or Cessna 172 and go fly yerself practically anywhere in the USA you damn well please. Instead of driving a brand new car every year and living in some yuppie condo/townhouse, I drive an 10 year old car, live in an older house and bought my own small plane and became a private pilot instead. I can fly three or four hundred mile trips in literally half the time it takes to drive, and roughly about the same net end-to-end amount of total time it takes to fly commercially, or sometimes even quicker than driving or commercial airlines since I can get into smaller airports much closer to my final destinations.
:-)
Drawbacks are: Sometimes obtaining ground transportation from a small Hickville airport is a bitch, and bad weather can keep you from flying a small plane like mine at all unless you've got a deathwish.
Benefits are: I can generally just hop into my own plane and go on my own schedule. Nothing feels better than flying over a traffic-jammed freeway and looking down at all the cars, except maybe flying over a highway patrol trooper that's got some poor schmuck pulled over on the side of the highway with his foot propped up on the car bumper and scribbling on a ticketbook while I glance over at my GPS groundspeed showing me cruising along at over 130 MPH
Every Slashdotter who ever had any thought at all about learning to fly should get over to their nearest small airport that has a Learn to Fly Here program and at least take an introductory flying lesson for $99 or less.
Stop Dreaming. Start Flying.
if there are half to 3/4s of a million terrorists in the US... why is any country allowing all these US travelers in? I say all countries should impose a 1 week waiting list for any american citizen to enter their country unless they provide A/S/L, DNA, and a retina scan.
the preceding post was not spell checked... suck it.
I vote we aboulish the TSA. It's completely unneeded. Has it averted one single terrorist act? If so, they didn't report it in the papers!
In fact, I vote we abolish the Department of Homeland Security. Isn't the Defense Department supposed to secure us from foreign enemies?
I also vote we abolish the Department of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms. All three of the items are dangerous but legal items (at least one protected by the Constitution). I mean, either abolish the ATF or start up the Department of Bleach, Paring Knives, and Automobiles.
I also vote we rename the FBI to the Federal Investigation Bureau, a much more fitting name after Waco and Ruby Ridge.
Why do we need the CIA and the NSA? Isn't that about kind of like the subject of this comment?
1933: "We have nothing to fear but fear itself!
2001: "We have nothing to fear but TEH TERRORISTS! WE MUST ABOLISH CIVIL LIBERTIES!!!!!"
I fear for my country, but not what the terrorists can do to it. After the tornados tore through my town I realized that Bin Laden couldn't do ANYTHING remotely as destructive; I imagine the residents of New Orleans felt the same way after the flood. If Bin Laden had seen my neighborhood the next day he'd have given up, saying "we can't hurt these people!"
Rather, I fear what my government is doing to my country. Bush should be impeached for treason.
-mcgrew
It's not like Hillary or her husband have ever been radically anti-surveillance, but at least she's not as actively pro-surveillance as Edwards.
Bill Stewart
New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
Epic troll that has his own Slashdot tags now. No, it's not the micro blogging site. It's Slashdot's very own annoying crapflooder troll.
So if a flight enters US airspace 72 hours before it departs, in that case it would need to provide a passenger manifest?
I for one welcome our new time-retardant airline overlords.
You don't belong to a religion that requires a fast burial.
Hell, lets cut to the chase, this is got to be sponsered by Amtrak, cause that will be the only way to travel.
by Chris Rowthorn | Sep 25 2007 - 9:48am |
"Fascism: a system of government marked by centralization of authority under a dictator"
-- The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language: Fourth Edition. 2000
It is a truism in the blogosphere that one more terrorist attack will turn America into a fascist state. People speculate about what fascism in America will look like, or how they might fight it. Others boast that they plan to flee the country ahead of the coming fascist takeover of the United States. One cannot read these posts without a sense of bitter irony, because one thing is clear to those who are watching carefully:
The United States of America is already a fascist state.
The United States turned fascist on December 11, 2000. On that day, the Supreme Court essentially appointed George W. Bush president of the United States, stopping the recount of Florida votes, and, hence, the democratic process. The justices of the court then slipped away by night, ashamed of their role in murdering America's great experiment in democratic rule.
The Supreme Court decision of December 11, 2000 is the modern American equivalent to German President Hindenburg's swearing in of Hitler as chancellor of Germany on January 30, 1933. By swearing in Hitler as chancellor, Hindenburg set in motion a process which led to the Nazi dictatorship and World War II. In the case of the Nazis, the Reichstag fire of February 27, 1933 was the catalyst they needed to cement their grip on power. In the case of Bush and his backers, the tragedy of September 11, 2001 was the catalyst they needed to complete their full takeover of the American government.
When one looks at present-day America and reads plaintive musings about if and when America will turn fascist, it is useful to ask oneself the following question: When do you think the average German realized that he or she was living under a fascist dictatorship? How about the Japanese or Italians of the same period? Do you think that Hitler, Mussolini or Tojo made a public announcement to the effect of, "Dear Citizens: Please be advised that you no longer have any rights or political power. We have taken control of the government. Opposition and resistance are futile and will be punished."
The fact is, most of the "good" citizens of these countries clung desperately to the notion that it was business as usual long after constitutional government was dead and buried. Sure, they knew that their governments were a little further to the right than normal, but as long as they kept earning money and eating well, they ignored the grim realities of fascism.
It's easy to understand why: the "good" citizens weren't members of officially scapegoated groups or political activists, and thus they never felt the iron first of fascism. It's not like the government just suddenly started rounding up people at random and trucking them off to camps and executing them. No, it was only the "bad ones" who were carted off. It was the John Walker Lindhs, the Jose Padillas, the illegal immigrants and the Muslim Americans of their day who were carted off.
In fact, for the average citizen of Germany, Japan or Italy, it was only when the military adventures of their fascist governments started to go seriously awry did the reality dawn on them. Until then, if anything, they merely felt the stirrings of extreme patriotism and perhaps even satisfaction as their countries expanded outward. Indeed, for many, it was only when their countries lay in ashes did they fully understand what had happened. Only then could they see that a kind of cancer had run wild in their countries and come perilously close to destroying them.
In 2007, the average American is in exactly the same position as the typical German, Japanese or Italian citizen of the early to mid-1930s. Unless you happen to be a Muslim, a left-wing political activist, or a regular reader of left-wing political websites or journals, you could be forgiven for thinking that it's business as usual in the
I agree - the FUD context is on HIGH INTENSITY.
/.ers get when they get a whiff of a perceived iota of a hint of government impropriety. The /. audience is supposed to have analytical skills, be technically-oriented, and have a high capacity for critical thought.
Another thing that never ceases to amaze me is how emotional many
(Whoa, I must be new here!)
And yet, many spout off in panic (500k-750k terrorists! based on an ACLU guy blabbing from UNCITED PRESS MATERIAL), defeatism (the terrorists have won!11!), and project their most bitter internet pout (I'm gonna miss my: gramma's funeral, presidential debate, dog heartworm shot, etc.). These are not the kind of people I'd want to watch my back in a firefight, or weather a storm on my sailboat.
The recent proposals said they'd have the viewing only be done remotely, not by local personnel, and that they'd fuzz the *faces* of the voyeurees. While it does make it harder for the TSA single out the hot-looking women for extra scanning, it's still tacky of them.
Bill Stewart
New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
Good point, however, this is still an inconvenience, an invasion of privacy, an economic burden on the airlines, and ultimately on the travelers. What proof is there that any of these "good intentions" actually prevent terrorism? Is it because we haven't had any incidents since 9/11/2001? Well guess what? We had an incident before that in Oklahoma on 4/19/1995, we implemented all kinds of new security checks and methods dealing with potential bomb making materials and rental trucks. Wow, we all felt much better and safer after those were implemented. Sure, it was a little inconvenient for some farmers and truck rental places, but, hell, we paid the price, knowing that we would all be much safer. Besides, I wasn't a farmer and I didn't need to rent a truck anytime soon. Oh wait, the terrorists then thought of a new way to attack us. And you know what? They'll think of another way as long as they have a desire or a reason to do so. If we lock all the doors and windows, they'll come in through the chimney. So why do we go to such extreme measures? To make us all feel better? To scare us into relinquishing more of our civil rights and liberties? To give more power to those who crave it? Seems to me Bin Laden was correct, the world is an entirely different place now. Evidently he has succeeded. You'll have to excuse me now, I have to go apply for my travel papers.
How sad... that the nation that at one time a quite large percentage of the world could actually admire as a bastion of freedom and independence should be reduced to this.
Rome fell from greatness too... and it never recovered. Will history repeat itself?
File under 'M' for 'Manic ranting'
At my job we aren't so young and most have families and we still have to make last-minute flights from time to time. On more than one occasion this year I've had to book flights within 72 hours of departure.
I can tell you that in many business cases there is absolutely NO WAY that this proposal is workable. People MUST be able to make travel plans up to and including the day of departure. 3 days is just not workable and the business community simply would not tolerate implementation of this proposal.
There are also far to many last-minute trips made on compassionate grounds. What about flights arranged to see dying loved ones, or to transport donor organs, or to get special treatment at a distant hospital? Hell, you can get a passport faster than 72 hours under normal cases for such reasons. If your identity can be verified well enough to get a passport that quickly then clearing you for a flight should be much easier than that.
Three days? That'll never fly. MAYBE three HOURS, but not three days.
It goes beyond that though--the same proposal not only wants lists for all flights arriving or departing US locations, it wants flight lists for ALMOST EVERY FLIGHT THAT PASSED OVER US AIRSPACE as well...which means they'd like the government to demand passenger lists from Canadian and Mexican airlines for many of their flights that never touch American soil. Not enough to violate their own civil liberties--in the name of safety everyone's liberties must be unduly curtailed.
Could someone please explain how this makes me safer?
its the fact that you NEED permission from some agency that is NOT flight & aviation related to make that flight.
Read radical news here
Unless they accept military orders as an exception, I can see the military not liking this one bit. Most personel movements are via commercial air.
There have been many cases where I've seen somebody go from every day work to outprocessing and on a plane that night or early the next morning.
That's not including 'death/family emergency' where it's sometimes even faster.
Still, you'd think that if they could get 3 days notice for 90% of traffic, they'd be able to fast track the remaining 10% or so.
I don't read AC A human right
Muslims are more politically correct than Jews.
So, 1 inconvenienced Muslim would have more sway, in the media, than 24 Jews.
All you have to do is rank people by their PC-creeds to figure out how things play out.
"No one says that the US, as it stands today, is like the tyranny of the USSR."
Um, except the OP.
Are you fucking blind, or just trolling?
I only go to buffets for the unlimited soft serve.
Of course, all of this assumes that said terrorist will book the ticket in his or her real name. I guess the only real danger is that we may run into a terrorist that's smarter than the average TSA or DHS employee....
Oh oh. Now I'm worried.
Three Squirrels
So the evil scary terrorists will have to stop sending their Bond, James Bond equivalents and start using no-name one shot suicide bombers.
Pfft. They'd never think of something like that.
Until people realize they have to be responsible for their own security we'll keep seeing crap like this so-called "good idea".
If this hadn't been reported, I wonder if any of the flying public would even be aware that the rules had changed.
Good, point taken - we're going too far in our fight to protect ourselves.
:) isn't practical, but is there a more appropriate way to address the problem?
But where is the balance between this position (we're doing too much) and the other side of the aisle who says we don't (didn't) do enough? I agree that a "3-day waiting period"
Meanwhile, it's been 6 yrs since 9-11. We haven't had an attack in those 6 yrs - which may or may not be attributable to the current administration - but you still find it notable to mention that "this administration is hell bent on destroying those very same freedoms in this country." [/rant]
I guess I'm just trying to say it gets old hearing people complain while offering no alternative solution. Not trying to troll, I just wish we could make things constructive and not political.
Would this mean you would have to book flights more than 72 hours ahead of time to be able to get on the flight?
I'm a Field Service Engineer and I frequently receive notice that a plant is down and I need to be there the same day to service it. These plants can be losing upwards of a million dollars per hour because a single piece of equipment has failed. On more than one occasion, I've had to book same day flights from Atlanta, GA to as far as Portland, OR because the customer was in desperate need.
From this stand-point having to be on the passenger manifest 72 hours before the flight leaves would be detrimental to the economy.
... and in the DRM, bind them.
..the real problem is any of these lists existing at all. Once any ruling regime starts making lists of "less than supportive of the regime", eventually the mass roundups and camps and torture and executions follow. Inevitable, it has happened every place else it was done. And there's nothing special or magical about the USA, it has the same megalomaniacs that always arise during an empire phase, it has the same way of just ignoring any laws they want when it is more convenient to do so, it has the same "above the law" feudalistic class, and the same herds of grunting order followers who think whatever they are ordered to do is "patriotic", whether that is being part of the so called civil part of government or some paramilitary organization (cops and military are the same thing in the US now, don't kid yourself about it).
It's going down the tubes, and no electing some megalomaniac with a D in front of their name instead of an R is going to change this, they are all "elite globalists" at the top. They are your "superiors" and "betters", who know how to lead (rule) over their subjects.
What are you all so worried about ? Don't you trust your Dear Executive ? I am *sure* the Dear Executive has gone to great lengths to verify that no-fly lists only contain those individuals who are a threat to the current regime, like in this case of the evil Princeton law professor. Hey, listen, if you're against our leaders, why should you be able to fly ? North Korea doesn't allow freedom of movement either. In fact, the Dear Leader there made the wise decision that even a trip to the next town requires a permit. That way, nasty dissidents and threats can't meet for subversive evil. So, grow up, and join patriotic Americans in thought purity. Pure thought, travel all you want. Thank You, Dear Leader !!
Our current Administration is making a pattern of this. Instead of making us more secure, they make us feel inconvenienced, so we will assume that it is all being done to make us more secure. The intention is to keep us in terror, so we feel that we need them, and to make us feel like they are doing everything they can, so we will vote for them again next time.
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We already are screened before going to the USA, so we already lost that freedom, but why 72 hours? Do they have to manually punch in every single flyer? Or are their systems so overloaded that they can't clear you while you're checking in (I'm looking at you JetBlue with the 5-star rating on my boarding passes ALL THE TIME - random my @R$3)?
If the latter, then I would have to use a trick like this when I (finally) reproduce: http://xkcd.org/327/
Custom electronics and digital signage for your business: www.evcircuits.com
Excellent point. I just wanted to mention that Clinton had three assassination attempts in his first year. To quote the New York Times "Since Mr. Clinton moved to 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue, the White House has come under assault by a small plane that crashed under the President's bedroom last September and a deranged gunman who was recently convicted of trying to assassinate the President a month later when he fired shots that struck the building but did not injure anyone. In December, the mansion was struck by bullets fired from somewhere to the south, but investigators never determined if they were aimed at the White House." (link). He was the one who closed the road (see the congressional record here.
These kind of things don't make it into the mass media, you have to dig for them (it would upset people, after all.)
I have a theory that the truth is never told during the nine-to-five hours. - Hunter S. Thompson
"No, we don't let you in."
Except we DO, and then we argue about whether or not to give you AMNESTY.
"You can leave, but not with your money."
Except you can, and this point is bullshit.
"You can leave..."
ANYTIME YOU WANT. Get in a car, get on a charter, fuck man WALK if it's that important to you.
Stop lying guy.
I only go to buffets for the unlimited soft serve.
This seems to me to be a 4th amendment violation. My travel plans are my own and are simply shared between me and the airline. Asking for them 72 hours in advance seems like an unreasonable warrentless search of my travel habits. A couple years ago logic similar to this shutdown roadblocks looking for drunk drivers. And those were much more likely to turn up drunks then this will be to turn up terrorists.
Amendment IV
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
But why not take it further. I'm not advocating personal info violation, but since they're already doing it anyway, why not make it more efficient. How about the check is performed as part of the ticketing procedure. While the website checks your credit card, it might as well check if you're on the no fly list. I have a friend whose first, middle, and last names exactly match that of someone on the no-fly list and he has all kinds of problems traveling. WHy not have that checked out earlier.
Of course, better privacy protections are in place, but why make the inconvenience worse.
Of course, the US will not allow aircraft from Canada to fly over the US, but this is no problem, because when Canada, in return, will refuse US planes to fly over Canada, and since there are waaaaayyyy much more US planes flying over Canada (going to Europe via the north-pole) than the reverse, the requirement will be scrapped in no time...
..and it's happening. All Americans need to research the Presidential candidates *now* - the next President is being chosen *now*, not next year. The primaries are fast approaching, and in some states it's already too late to change your party, excluding you from voting for your choice. Don't wait any longer or it will be too late. Do something about this!
In the PDF, they note that three days provides a good deal of time for them to correct or correlate information from other government agencies. Have *you* ever tried to get anything from even a single government agency in under 30 minutes?
Again, all they are asking is for airlines to send what they can three days before, and then send updates - hardly onerous!
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
So, if my mom gets in a car wreck and has 24 hours to live, and I'm on the other side of the country, I'm just fucked if I want to go see her one last time, huh?
You'd think Slashdot people would be the kind of folk not to comment on a technical matter before reading an RFP. Yet how many people here read through the PDF?
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
The US is still in the 19th century as far as rail travel goes compared to the rest of the world. Maybe this will help us realize that there are other options.
Sure name only is pretty weak. But it adds another layer someone must go through (get a fake ID) to pass undetected, to create other patterns that can be recognized and singled out.
You have to start somewhere, name's as good as anything and better than most. Would you rather they require a full headshot to make a reservation? Or perhaps a blood and stool sample?
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
To ./ community and internet community in general: If you've ever complained about your rights being stripped but have not lifted a finger to help - then you are part of the problem.
No, you're not an innocent bystandard, or a spectator, or someone who is "too busy", or "too lazy", or "doesn't care enough", or whatever the excuse. You are all involved and impacted whether you like it or not. Therefore, this is about personal integrity.
I submit to you that you are by now aware of the crises in this country. You are all educated. You are also aware that this is a fixable problem. It may be difficult, but its fixable. To a person of integrity, the choice is clear. Such a person takes action and does her best to be part of the solution. So what have you done to help?
If you refuse to stand up for your own values(which requires action), what good are you?
Bin Laden and his cohorts are probably laughing* in their cave at how they've succeeded in their first goal of undermining our society.
Perhaps he is, but he'd be wrong. He didn't undermine our society. We did it to ourselves. Where are the mass protests in the streets every time they infringe on our freedoms? Nowhere to be found. Hardly even a quip. In fact many people are GLAD to see our freedoms thrown to the pyres so that they can feel safer.
Bin Laden was just a catalyst. We honestly lost our right to freedom when we were willing to simply give it away.
If you only have to really scrutinize the people registering within 72 hours of flying, as the paper notes that cuts out approximatley 92% of most passengers (who register and stabilize flights before then). That makes it a lot easier to find people remaining that might be trouble.
Boy it's amazing what you find when you actually read a proposal, it includes details and explanations and all kinds of things!
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Leave it to Those Stupid Assholes to make flying more of a hassle, and less of an affordable, enjoyable way to travel, any damn way they can.
Fuck you, Those Stupid Assholes. It's Fuck You Friday.
Bow-ties are cool.
I think America needs more "terrorists" or as I like to call them: patriots.
Shh.
"Just Smile and Nod." --Huck
The Democrats will put an end to this...right after they stop the war!
- non-existent problems
- unsolvable problems
I'd like to see anyone offer a viable alternative solution.I agree, just because something has worked once means that we should explicitly not take any measure to prevent it happening again.
Right.
Every bit of data collection can be used to analyze and look for new perceived attack vectors as well you know.
As for economic burden, if you along with anyone else would bother to read the proposal PDF you'd note that it makes life easier for the airlines as it helps them bundle up data they already send today (thus no extra load on the airlines they are not already under today).
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
What I am curious about is this: how many legitimate security threats have been stopped by the regulations in place now? We know they go after nursing mothers, girls with techno-trash style sense, sick people with serious, life threatening conditions, etc. I've also seen them stop people with jars of maple syrup, pickles and other substances, and once even an idiot muling drugs from Canada to Chicago. But, again, how many REAL terrorist style bad guys have we heard about them taking down? By my count, admittedly incomplete though it is, the number is very close to if not actually equal to zero. Then there are those really silly things like the "no-fly" lists. They check your name!! How many real bad guys are going to use their real names? I can just see it, "Name, please? Hmm? Oh, I'm Carlos the Jackal. Sorry, sir, could you step over here? You are on our no-fly list." Seriously, now.
------ The only greater hazard to your liberty than n politicians is n+1 politicians.
There were a few comments about detecting guns and knives.
... Without screening here, planes cannot be made "relatively save" in any case.
Yes, there are guns and knives with little metal. My point is that the metal detectors at airports are set to a default setting. (usually turned up if the attendants are bored or see a hot chick.)This default setting is just enough to detect whatever amount the gun with the least metal sold in the US is. Ergo, if you take less metal through - you won't get caught *at a default setting.*
(I used to have a friend who tested airport security. If I repeat what I heard him gripe about - no one would like it.)
Similarly, you can check stuff in your baggage. Say a crude altimiter. Plane goes up, it goes off. Personal baggage seems only to be checked well at certain airports.
Finally, Most of the items being transported on a plane are freight: Overnight packges, perishable items, toys shipped from china for Xmas at the last minute,
$.02
> Hasbrouck submitted that requiring clearance in order to
> travel violates the US First Amendment right of assembly
Oh, come on. I'm not a big fan of excessive and gratuitous restrictions, but this claim is just bizarre. Who holds political rallies on airplanes? There's absolutely no way the assembly clause was meant to apply here. Airplanes aren't even public property, really. Any normal activist group (insofar as there is such a thing as a "normal" activist group) assembles in front of the courthouse or city hall or the capitol or whatever, on the ground. In a Jetsons world where people build whole cities in the sky there would be a legitimate need for assembly up there, but we haven't even seen a flying car released on the family car market yet, so that's clearly not the world we currently live in.
Restricting air travel is in principle no different from restricting who can get a driver's license, which we've been doing for decades (based, if nothing else, on the ability to pass the test). That doesn't make stupid and unnecessary restrictions a good idea, far from it, but claiming that they violate the assembly clause is totally left field.
Cut that out, or I will ship you to Norilsk in a box.
Where is the war on cancer, or the war on drunk driving? You're more likely to die driving to the airport than on the plane. The difference is when you die in an act of terrorism, it's more likely to be televised and thus breed dissatisfaction among the survivors with the coincident administration of government for failing to prevent it. People who die quietly (relatively speaking) don't provoke as much outrage.
Oh, say does that Star-Spangled Banner entwine / The myrtle of Venus with Bacchus's vine?
I hate laws like these. They promote the current trend of being afraid.
Funny, if you read the PDF it sure doesn't do anything like that.
If you read the Slashdot headline (and whatever shows up later on Digg) the effect is one of fear.
Who is promoting Fear again? Who then should you hate?
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Actually, you can't. You have to have a valid driver's license to drive.
So? There's still mopeds or bikes...
Unless you propose Bush plans to de-limb the entire country. I'm sure lots of people think that way so it wouldn't surprise me if you are one of them.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
The submitter apparently can't join the discussion, because he's a troll with negative karma.
Don't feel bad that it's happening on commerical flights. They're also trying to push through regulations to reqire the same advanced notice of private pilots BEFORE you take to the air and cross the border (in either direction). This may not sound like a big deal but the entire point of flying small aircraft is to be able to get to remote airports to enjoy the local culture or other event. That said, many of these remote airports don't have electricity, let alone high speed internet access required to submit the passenger and cargo manifests in order to get the FAA and TSA clearance (to be fair it's the TSA pushing this hard, not the FAA).
Ultimately I think this will fail because it puts too much of a hindrance on the "come and go as you please" life style of Americans. But, chalk another one up to FUD and security theatre.
[move
like Senator Ted Kennedy, a real terrorist name if ever I heard one
Oh yeah, if you think he's so safe would you take a care ride with him if you were a well-built blonde?
Seems like his name should be on that kind of list anywhere there are pretty women around transport.
Think of the stewardesses man!
Congressmen fly too. As does every other person with money. You don't piss off people with money.
72-hour-advance-notice to ride the Greyhound, sure, that might get passed. But airplanes? No way. People Who Matter fly on airplanes.
paintball
Back in the USSR, you had to get an exit visa in order to leave the country. It is very satisfactory to see that my suspicions of the US going in the same general direction as the Soviets are confirmed on the daily basis. The ideology may differ, but the mean bastards in power don't.
PS: Next at the airport security: THE ANAL PROBE!
Even Social Security and the IRS get mine wrong.
Besides, if you're looking for people named Osama bin Laden, it might help to realize that can be spelled about 20 different ways - Usama dhin Lahdin is just one example.
This is yet another waste of time that accomplishes absolutely NADA. And I say that as someone who worked on successful counter-terrorism ops.
-- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
Yet. The additional requirements will be forthcoming (once the foot is in the door).
How many times do I have to say, read the PDF (RTPDF?)
These are the requirements, in full, for viewing and public comment. Even including reasons why they want to do what they are asking. In English.
There is no "foot in the door" There's not even a door. Not even in the sense there is no spoon, it's just that a door is not included.
Perhaps I can translate into geek, this being Slashdot and all. You know RFC? This is an RFC. The RFC793 for TCP didn't leave a "foot in the door" for packets built of cheese whiz, or for TCP to arbitrarily move to the application layer.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Looks like it's about time to resume working on my underground mole borer.
Oh, say does that Star-Spangled Banner entwine / The myrtle of Venus with Bacchus's vine?
The first headline you mentioned ("Airlines may have to submit passenger list 72 hours before flight") is accurate.
The second headline? The correct wording should have been, "you'll need to buy a ticket 30 minutes in advance of the flight".
Read the PDF. The TSA would just like the flight manifest in progress 72 hours out, with updates after that point.
Yes, you have been duped.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
"So this is how liberty dies. With thunderous applause." - Padmé Amidala This pretty much describes the situation in the US today. People are happy to "give up liberty for freedom", which is really just giving up freedom for nothing. There are no way that any group of terrorists can ever do any major harm to the western world. The media has blown it out of proportion. Terrorism has at most killed 3000 in a year in the US. it is insignificant compared to other death rates, for example cancer or traffic accidents.
Would this mean you would have to book flights more than 72 hours ahead of time to be able to get on the flight?
No, the minimum time specified was 30 minutes.
72 hours is how long before the flight the TSA would like an initial list to go over.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
This was all over the Canadian news last night, as they also want the passenger lists of any flights merely flying over American airspace, for example, Montreal to Mexico City. They were originally going to have this rule apply to domestic flights that happen to cross American airspace (which is common with a flight like Toronto to Vancouver), but have thankfully backed down. Oh yeah, and people now have 10 days to comment about these new rules.
But it is about the impact on the economy. Consider this: In the days following 9-11, the US stocks lost $1,200,000,000,000. Thats 1.2 trillion if digit grouping isn't your thing. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/September_11,_2001_attacks#Economic_aftermath). Thats also just stocks, not counting what we've spent on wars, other anti-terrorist programs, and other junk that hasn't made the USA one ounce safer.
My opinion on the topic? The government should not regulate passengers on planes. Should the government regulate international travel to the US? Maybe. Depends on the program, who it filters, etc. I think it comes down to good intelligence on who the crazies are. So far the majority people people flying planes into buildings for the purposes of terrorism are Muslim Arab's. I think 99% of Muslims Arabs are great--its the 1% that are crazy suicidal maniacs we need to worry about. Lets start there. It would be great if our 'friends' in Saudi Arabia would help us out with this...but thats another issue. If other religious or ethic groups start doing similar shit then they should be filtered out.
Ultimately governments cannot stop determined individuals who are bent on terrorism. It comes down the world population, who out of a love of freedom and their fellow man and with complete disregard to their personal safety restrain and fight violently those who would cause terror.
This it the hourly tinfoil article for the "oh noez! we are DOOOMED!" crowd... Scream in your basement all you like, the only people you'll upset are your parents.
I have personal control over:
heart disease
cancer
stroke
accidents
influensa
to the degree I can greatly minimize the likleyhood of my getting any of them.
The one thing I have less control over is the actions of other people. The government cannot really ever have control over my own actions, so they are best suited to the attempt to prevent harm to myself as a citizen from outside agents or criminal elements.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
you don't need papers to fly internationally (OK, at least within the EU) Things are really wrong when Europe has become more liberal than the US
Perhaps you've never heard of Ram Charan who spends every day and every night in a different city, in a different country on a different continent:
http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/fortune_archive/2007/04/30/8405482/index.htm
On a long enough time scale, most everything balances out.
The premise of the libertarian movement is small governement. There is a reason that a candidate like Ron Paul is getting so much press and support now - the actions of the government are becoming onerous and encroaching on basic human freedoms.
What the world needs now is a large group of people to collectively tell the state (Read: US FEDERAL GOVERENMNET) to "Back the fuck off" and stay where they belong: defending the country against known threats, domestic and international and creating real domesitc security (not this fake, fear mongering/engineered solution cycle).
"Watch lists" are part of LAZY POLICE WORK. If there is a person that is planning something - investigate them, charge them, arest them. Follow the laws we have now. All the rest of this crap in the name of security is just plain ineffective, lazy behavior driven by the need to cover their asses and assauge their fears that they will be accountable if any thing happens.
The reality is that there is no way to stop terrorism, and people have to get OK with that. If some sicko wants to kill a bunch of people, he or she will. If some sicko wants to fill a truck with fertilizer and gas, and drive into a building, they will. Tough shit. Somebody should have listened to their pleas for help long ago. Living is a world that makes it impossible for someone to bring down a plane is not a world that I want to live in, becuase it means draconian crontrols on freedoms. Those same freedoms we fought for and won hundreds of years ago, and many have died defending. I'd much rather we build a world where people DON'T WANT TO BRING DOWN PLANES. That is completely possible, and if we spent our energies there instead of the current track, we would all have happier, healthier lives.
The debate is not "should we have watch lists or not". The debate is, "who came up with this ridiculous crap and how soon can we remove them from power?"
Parent summed it up, nice and elegant.
With computers, you can track every single citizen on a daily basis. And yes, fascism is going to be better than ever.
I lost my sig.
I work in the airline industry now. I am getting a headache only thinking on the new nightmare this bring. APIS was already over the top, But that take it.
C. Sagan : A demon haunted world:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0345409469/
visit randi.org
first it's airplanes. The trains. Then it's city hall. Then it's everywhere.
712 hours early
The Emperor strikes again.
FalconShould there be a Law?
I get that on intrastate trips in New Mexico, just driving from Las Cruces to Albuquerque. It has been going on for decades.
As copyright owner of this comment, I authorize everyone to defeat any technological measure which limits access to it.
I'd suggest that certain people be allowed to willingly give up privacy in return for fast track at the airport through the TSA.
If you don't want to live in the land of the free but instead want to live in a dictatorship MOVE!!! Don't turn the nation whose military I served in into one.
FalconShould there be a Law?
... where it matters -- in the voting booth. Vote out ALL incumbents, year after year, regardless of party, and after a while, the idiots that run the country would begin to get a clue.
I have had the same experience back in the 1980s.
It is not just something that started recently.
When you are near the border with Mexico, you might get stopped.
I was stargazing very near the border between California and Mexico and
was driving home early in the morning. I was stopped and asked what
state I was born in and maybe some other questions I don't remember 20 years later.
It used to be, and perhaps still is the case that if you are near the border
between California and Nevada, you might be asked if you have fruit with you.
I guess if you have an out of state piece of fruit, it might have a bug in it
that could wipe out some of the crops here in California.
"We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them." -- Albert Einstein
nah, it's worse than nothing due to the false positive rate.
If you'd RTPDF you'd see that's why they want three days to look over the data and reduce false positives!!!
I can't believe I'm still having this discussion, what with a clearly written PDF and all sitting right there.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Three days? That'll never fly. MAYBE three HOURS, but not three days.
Forget that. Three minutes is 3 minutes too much. If I want to I should be able to to drive to the airport, pick a flight going where I want and buy a ticket with cash then and there without any "Papers please"!
FalconShould there be a Law?
The whole idea is to give themselves enough time to review the passenger manifest and flag persons of interest well in advance of takeoff to avoid awkward mid-air diversions.
I was, or thought I was, born in the land of the free. Heck I was even born in a US Airforce hospital. This country is getting more and more like a dictatorship.
FalconShould there be a Law?
Green chips day, yippy.
FalconShould there be a Law?
We (or at least I) don't want to live in a fascist society. That is why we need to stop things like this, that push society in that direction.
How inappropriate to call this planet Earth, when clearly it is Ocean.
You're absolutely right, that the US government is asking for passenger lists including D.O.B., address, and phone numbers for any flights flying over US air space.
So, if I'm on a flight from Vancouver to Cancun or (gasp!) Havana, (you guys south of us should really try vacationing in Cuba, it's dirt cheap, and you can drink the water, so I'm told...) the US wants to know about it.
Or, in other words, they want to be able to extend their ridiculous no-fly list to include people who don't live in the US, and who don't plan on setting foot on American soil, flying on Airlines that might not even do business to the US.
The fundamentally ridiculous part of this "data mining to catch terrorists" is the idea that, OK, we're looking for a needle in a haystack. So, if we make the haystack bigger, then somehow the needles we're looking for will magically appear.
Never mind that the false positive rate is going to be several orders of magnitude greater than the actual incidence rate of "being a terrorist" or "planning a terrorist attack on the US".
So this only sounds like a good idea to those people who don't care about arresting/detaining/harassing innocent people.
I hate to make a 'slippery slope' argument, but one of the hallmarks of a police state is keeping a file on your citizens, even if they're not suspects in a criminal matter.
The plural form of "anecdote" is "anecdotes", not "evidence".
Buy a Eurail pass and go to Europe. Spend two months hopping trains to
wherever you please. I've done exactly that and it was a blast. You can too...
But it'd make a pretty sad life.
It's a pretty interesting world out there. Whether experiencing one of the many wonderous things man has achieved or being within a meter or two of a herd of wild elephants while they bath and play in a watering hole there's an awful lot of great things to experience in the world.
You don't need to do it. But it's a bit of a pointless life if you are contented by mere survival.
Boffoonery - downloadable Comedy Benefit for Bletchley Park
The point is not the 72 hour delay, but that all air travelers have to be "cleared" before they can travel. This "clearance" process is fundamentally anti-freedom and pro-fascism.
It's not like they aren't abusing the rules they have in place already. People are refused onto planes for carrying breast milk, for example. Even worse, peace activists and political opponents have been put on "do not fly" lists to keep them from traveling.
It gets better: Right now, if you are convicted of certain Federal felonies you are AUTOMATICALLY added to the "do not fly" list. And there's no way to get off the list.
The ceramic knives and guns are make from zirconia with very small amounts of other elements. The x-ray machines have parts made of zirconia through which the radiation travels. At the wavelength that results the ceramic knives and guns will not be visable. This also holds with x-ray diffraction equipment used to identify compounds which is actually where I learned about it.
You're one of those, huh? Let's see...
I have personal control over:
heart disease
Glad you can change your own genetic code!
cancer
Same here - care to share your cancer cures?
stroke
Unlikely considering the level of fear you seem to be experiencing on a regular basis...
accidents
So I guess you don't walk, bike, or drive. Good for you!
influensa
Nice bubble!
Why don't you just go learn some math and relax buddy. It will help you prevent those strokes!
If you read the actual PDF, the requirement is 30 minutes before the flight for the TSA to clear. They just want the airline to send what they have 72 hours before, and require a full name (and only a full name) to make a reservation.
Hardly the ball-buster everyone is making it out to be.
BS! I don't live in the Soviet Union, I live in supposedly the Land of the Free. All that should be needed to travel by plane, or any other way, is the ability to pay.
FalconShould there be a Law?
Hear about that Spam King in Russia? He sent spam to the wrong mob boss and is now dead. Darn:
'Spammer Murder' Is a Hoax
FalconShould there be a Law?
If you think will affect "important" (ie: not really but they think they are) people your silly. I'm sure they'll come up with a special pass that politicans get cause they "need" to travel a moments notice.
Perhaps you didn't hear it but Senator Kennedy was denied boarding not once not twice but a few tymes.
FalconShould there be a Law?
Seems to be a recurring subject line for me... FireFox has it remembered...
but 72 hours in advance? give me a break! When we found out my grandfather was dying, within 12 hours we had out flight, and were at the airport! As it was he died before we made it to the airport, but 72 hours, we would have just arrived in time for the funeral... if all of our flights had been on time (which they weren't).
This will hamper business deals, "Last Minute Travel" (Which the airlines love)... Standby tickets...
in short... this is a Bad Thing (TM)
I will not give in to the terrorists. I will not become fearful.
Ironic, then, that the Republican party realized so much political gain from the events of 9/11. Of course, 9/11 was supposed to be the death of irony, but, ironically, that didn't happen, either.
But, I wanted socialized health insurance!
...all you need is a little $30-40K Piper Cherokee or Cessna 172 and go fly yerself practically anywhere in the USA you damn well please. Instead of driving a brand new car every year and living in some yuppie condo/townhouse, I drive an 10 year old car, live in an older house and bought my own small plane and became a private pilot instead.
Or you could do what an uncle of mine did, he built his own plane. I want to do the same, actually I'd like to build two planes, one I can fly across country if I want and an ultralight.
FalconShould there be a Law?
Granted, we all have to die somehow - but you seem a little defensive! Allergic to bees, perhaps? Again, the math:
Your chances of getting killed by a terrorist (from here):
But while keeping such potential dangers in mind, it is worth remembering that the total number of people killed since 9/11 by al Qaeda or al Qaedalike operatives outside of Afghanistan and Iraq is not much higher than the number who drown in bathtubs in the United States in a single year, and that the lifetime chance of an American being killed by international terrorism is about one in 80,000 -- about the same chance of being killed by a comet or a meteor. Even if there were a 9/11-scale attack every three months for the next five years, the likelihood that an individual American would number among the dead would be two hundredths of a percent (or one in 5,000).
From here:
All figures below are for U.S. residents.
Cause of Death Lifetime Odds
Heart Disease: 1-in-5
Cancer: 1-in-7
Stroke: 1-in-23
Accidental Injury: 1-in-36
Motor Vehicle Accident*: 1-in-100
Intentional Self-harm (suicide): 1-in-121
Falling Down: 1-in-246
Assault by Firearm: 1-in-325
Fire or Smoke: 1-in-1,116
Natural Forces (heat, cold, storms, quakes, etc.): 1-in-3,357
Electrocution*: 1-in-5,000
Drowning: 1-in-8,942
Air Travel Accident*: 1-in-20,000
Flood* (included also in Natural Forces above): 1-in-30,000
Legal Execution: 1-in-58,618
Tornado* (included also in Natural Forces above): 1-in-60,000
Lightning Strike (included also in Natural Forces above): 1-in-83,930
Snake, Bee or other Venomous Bite or Sting*: 1-in-100,000
Earthquake (included also in Natural Forces above): 1-in-131,890
Dog Attack: 1-in-147,717
Asteroid Impact*: 1-in-200,000**
Tsunami*: 1-in-500,000
Fireworks Discharge: 1-in-615,488
Any system with a false positive rate significantly exceeding zero is considered a failure,
Let's say a system produces 10% false positives and no false negatives. That means that instead of 300 passengers, they now only have to check 30. That means 1/10 the number of TSA inspectors needed to handle the same volume of travelers.
Another way of putting it is that what you do before current manual checking (namely, nothing) is essentially 100% false positives with no false negatives.
as people will quickly learn to assume that positives are false.
And that's a perfectly good assumption, as they go about checking the positives to make sure.
You're forgetting one important aspect of these things: the demonization of particular groups and the exaggeration of risk. Back then it was Jews, communists, homosexuals, or what the Soviets called "fascist".
These days, child pornographers are despicable, terrorists kill innocent people, and drug users kill themselves, but none of them represent a threat to people that demonstrably warrants the kind of reaction we are having. If our legal system and our politicians redirected the money to counseling, democratic media, and foreign aid, we'd be safer than with all these "security" efforts.
If you have enough to pay for a plane, you are so free.
And on commercial airlines you are also so free, as you'll note you don't need a valid ID - just a name. This changes nothing.
Try again.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Not according to Emperor Bush. He can arrest, lockup, and throw away the key to prison cell anyone he wants.
Be afraid, be very afraid of the government!
FalconShould there be a Law?
God, there's enough slippery slope arguments in the comments here for me to start my own Slip 'n Slide warehouse.
"It does not do to leave a live dragon out of your calculations, if you live near him." - Tolkien
Any and ALL mandates or restrictions are ONEROUS! And an abridgement of my freedom!
Fake Steve Jobs already makes use of this term to ridicule a differnet group of people (who I happen to be one of), but it's pretty clear the term needs to be re-used in this context:
Freetard - someone who imagines every small perceived limitation on personal freedom is fascism regardless of actual effect on real freedom.
I don't mean to malign you personally so much as I'm going for the many people that seem to suffer this disorder in aggrigate, so that they might wake up from the long nightmare of perceived suffering and be able to see real injustice and dillemas in other cultures with out being so paris hiltonly in self-delusion.
I have no doubt your condition is advanced enough you'll continue to suffer - you have my condolances.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Doesn't matter, I have degress of personal control over those other things (including living near advanced c are faciilities if my risks are higher) and no personal control over where someone like a terrorist and criminal may choose to go.
Ultimatley you have no valid point, you are haggling details from a position that is already lost. You're just trying to declare you're a little less wrong than you thought. Fine, you're only 99.84747478% wrong.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
I suspect that most of the Founders would be thoroughly disgusted by what we've done to ourselves.
Many would be calling for another revolution.
On the other hand, they knew this was coming: Jefferson himself pointed out that governments rarely improve with age.
TJ said the blood of tyrants and patriots may need to be spilled. He even said something to the effect that there should be one every 20 years or so.
FalconShould there be a Law?
That's right. Ron Paul has stated that if elected he'll do away with TSA and DHS (among many other acronyms).
Libertas in infinitum
The point is not the 72 hour delay, but that all air travelers have to be "cleared" before they can travel. This "clearance" process is fundamentally anti-freedom and pro-fascism.
If it affected anything but a narrow segment of one travel industry I might actually agree.
It's not like they aren't abusing the rules they have in place already. People are refused onto planes for carrying breast milk, for example.
Yes, that happened once but not anymore. See how that works? Overly restrictive rules get put in place, get relaxed. I can carry sciccors again. That was damn stupid. That's called a free society where sometimes things will be too restrive, and other times too permissive - and we'll always be in one state or the other. Sorry the world cannot be perfect.
It gets better: Right now, if you are convicted of certain Federal felonies you are AUTOMATICALLY added to the "do not fly" list. And there's no way to get off the list.
I like how you hide the reality of that behind "certain felonies" like there are none that would matter. It's just a question of the right ones. It's again, a balance.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
I'm many orders of magnitude more likely to be screwed by being unable to travel freely, than I am to be hurt by a terrorist who doesn't think to get a ticket 72 hours in advance.
Which just brings me back to notiing that you slashsheep didn't read the PDF but only the summery. The summary was dead wrong as the PDF says no such thing and allows you to travel whenever you like (sorry, have to book within 30 minutes of plane travel which is needed to board anyway!).
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
There is the "other" Jefferson thst posters here choose to forget.
Jefferson's political ideal was an agrarian republic of "small" independent farmers. The world of the slave-holding elite - and about as far removed from the modern commercial and industrial society being shaped by men like Ben Franklin, Paul Revere, Alexander Hamilton, and Eli WHitney as you could get.
What sort of computers are the TSA using if it takes 3 days to match a name to a database.
What century are we living in?
1 hour before boarding is reasonable. Allows data entry and organization for response. Anything more is just a sloppy system.
One minute is unreasonable! The government has no business collecting names period! If an airline wants to do it fine as long as they don't share it with the government, but the government should not be mandating it. Someone who wants to feel "safe" can go ahead and fly on that airline, and I'll fly on the airline who just asks if I can pay for a ticket.
FalconShould there be a Law?
I have heard that Bob Widlar of Fairchild and National Semiconductor fame used to do this for vacations without even packing.
" economic losses that ripple through the entire economy"
A few years before 911 I was in NYC every few months (doing internet stuff, stop looking at me that way NSA guys) and met a bunch of guys that bought and sold big buildings there. They mentioned that the WTC was bleeding money and was soon going to default on its taxes and end up being owned by the port authority who sure as hell didn't want it as it as they couldn't afford to have that kind of fiscal bloodletting on their hands.
So the fact the WTC is gone is an asset to NYC.
Convenient, huh?
Need Mercedes parts ?
Who gives a flying fuck what that self-absorbed asshole says in this context? You must be delirious.
The democratic government runs you!
In Judaism, you must bury the dead within three days.
With a rule like this, no Jew would be able to fly home in time for a funeral.
I'm sure posting this will generate rude responses from Anonymous Cowards. But it had to be said. A 72-hour hold on air travel would violate religious freedoms. OTOH, if they merely cut it down to 24 or 36 hours, it might clear that hurdle, but still cause all sorts of other problems.
Start a happiness pandemic
Stasi, anyone? You yanks are so screwed.
Well it's been well known for decades that Americans seldom understand irony, parody or, frankly, anything less subtle than a wild pitch to the crotch in the first place...
Simple answer vote for Ron Paul and this all goes away. And if your in a closed primary state, then register republican and vote for him. Stick it to the neocons.
Don't Vote for Norm Dicks! http://www.nodicks2008.com Another nutless dirtbag that voted for the FISA bill!
The article notes 93% of reservations are completed at least 72 hours in advance - but those last 7% can be very lucrative sincereservetions made at the last minute are often business travel; at full fare coach or business rates. Even one full fare business ticket from say London at $7000 or coach at $3000 is a significant revenue impact on teh flight; I doubt airlines will want to forgo that money; plus it also means that last minute changes would be a logistical nightmare for the passenger and airline. The TSA would still have to get a last minute manifest (or require no changes less than 72 hours before a flight) to keep some reasonable level of flexibility in the system.
I'm a consultant - I convert gibberish into cash-flow.
> first it's airplanes. The trains. Then it's city hall. Then it's everywhere.
Non sequiteur.
Trains? Maybe, but passenger trains are pretty much a non-starter in the US anyway, except for short-run trains in some of the major metropolitan areas.
If you want to argue that restricting any given mode of transportation is tantamount to preventing assembly, then the place to start is with the hoops you have to jump through to get a driver's license. I mean, you need an eye exam for crying out loud, how are the blind supposed to assemble? What about the underaged, who are too *young* to get a driver's license? Oh, wait, they in fact don't seem to have any trouble assembling when they want to do so.
Restricting the right to stand in front of city hall *would* be a violation of the assembly clause, clearly, but that's not even vaguely in the same category. City hall is a place, not a form of transportation. It doesn't follow.
Cut that out, or I will ship you to Norilsk in a box.
... analysts upgraded Bombardier, Cessna and Dassault.
Flying commercial is sooo cumbersome. Ok, let's jet.
Could a slashdot editor please "dupe" this about a day from now, with a summary mentioning that you can still add a passenger up to 30 minutes prior to take-off? I've think I've seen all the libertarian/Orwellian/if-I-become-President-I'll-abolish evil handwringing I can stand for a day.
No statement is true, not even this one.
Last week I met a very charming guy at a conference. He is one of the top engineers at Yahoo and has a middle eastern name. I kept thinking God, I hope he doesn't have to go through all kinds of shit on his return flight.
Looking back on the whole history of all the war, terror, decrees, TSA, and what have you, it certainly seems that the current situation (i.e., the U.S. would find it necessary and make it possible to severely monitor and restrict the movements of its own populace) could have been easily extrapolated from before our badly managed adventurism in the middle east. At least back to when the CIA was funding these guys and later when an oil-backed Presidential Family took office.
Personally I had expected some kind of war for any reason in the area, to "mop things up" before the bad guys got higher technology, but I was too young to expect this. The guys in power however are a different story. You have to wonder if the current situation was not indeed expected, in fact planned for as a reasonable price for the events that were to be undertaken. Since most people probably would have opted for a more just and safer foreign policy if they had been told how things would change domestically, and since most recent decrees are flatly unconstitutional without invocation of an emergency executive power, that would make the planning an actions taken way back when to have been treasonous.
It certainly is possible that most people, even all people, are not happy now with the results of what they felt were the best actions and responses they could take, but it certainly seems reasonable to suggest they be forced to defend their actions and at any rate, in the interests of fairness, to disqualify themselves in order to prevent the unseemly image of having profited in many ways from the destruction of what most Americans hold dear. That such auto-disqualification has not come to pass is why the administration and its supporters appear to many to be frankly corrupt, irresponsible and unworthy of the public trust.
Perhaps things will change and history will see this as the low point of a cycle, on the other hand it is eminently possible that history will view these events in the context of rising economic and technological might outside the U.S., correlated to the Internet's growth and the rise of the unprecedented power held by U.S. corporations over labor, government and the media, and that historians will attempt to explain this gestalt as the reason why the U.S. fell and never came back, or if it did come back then in some fractured 21st century way irrevocably severed from the society and history prior to the 1990s.
Personally, I think most of what I am is defined by the 70s and early 80s (whereas the late 80s were fake and the 90s were a period of chaotic vibration in response to macro events), and just as I tried my best to discover where this fabled "Internet" was when I was a little kid, and then helped build a little bit of it later on, it feels like now we are in a new phase in which many things are out of control while simultaneously not having been deployed very well, and that such a split with the past is unhealthy and perhaps reminiscent of schizophrenia writ upon society at large. Folks, we need a doctor.
They would not have been able to just waltz through screening and kill people like they did.
Since the 9/11 hijackers all had valid ID, were here legally, had legal tickets, etc... and passed all of the screening procedures... with THIS in place, they would have had to WAIT 72 hours before killing 3000 people. See the difference?
This space available.
The Department of Homeland Security has spread more fear in this country than anything SINCE 9/11. It is time we called on congress to abolish or at least curtail the powers of this monster. They are crying wolf at every shadow and have in my opinion done more real damage to this country than any terrorist would have. Americans have never been a fearful people, why does DHS, the media and especially the current administration insist on fear mongering as a political tool! Yes terrorism exists, yes bad things happen, for the last 6 years this country has in effect GIVEN IN to the terrorists by changing our behavior to restrict our liberty and freedom. Perhaps a movement to have a no fly week soon in protest of the abuses of TSA and the DHS masters would wake up business (who actually seems to be running this country now) to the fact the the American People are tired of being told to be afraid of every shadow!!!
Is someone on a comission ?
You know, add a name $5. And a bonus for every 10th name you add ?
Are there 500,000 KNOWN terrorist ?
Even if they have 5 known aliases each, that suggests that the Government Knows 100,000 people it considers to a serious threat to an aircraft.
Hell, if these people all moved to the same place, they could probably elect their own private Congressman.
It's a simple question: Is freedom of movement a RIGHT? I believe it is. For the record, I have a problem with DRIVER'S LICENSES as I think the rationale that the government has a right to restrict travel on PUBLIC roads is crap. This doesn't mean I have a problem with traffic laws in general. If someone violates traffic rules restricting their travel *IS* appropriate. I just don't think there should be prior restraint. Overly restrictive rules get put in place, get relaxed. I can carry sciccors again. That was damn stupid. That's called a free society where sometimes things will be too restrive, and other times too permissive - and we'll always be in one state or the other. In a FREE society it is the RESTRICTIONS that must be justified, not the freedoms. If you think most of the stupid TSA rules actually improve security, you're deluded. Most of them are there to create "busy work" jobs and provide the ILLUSION of security. For example, restricting people from bringing computer equipment onboard aircraft would provide real security, as it's easy to hide explosives in electronic equipment. But that would piss off the airlines that depend on business travelers with laptops as their bread and butter. Instead they restrict LIQUIDS, not because of the danger (it would be near-impossible to bring most liquid explosives on an aircraft due to their volatility), but because this means the airlines can charge you $5 for a bottle of water. It also means that (hopefully) the passengers will be using the toilet less. Every flush costs them money.
Our tolerance for this nonsense the problem, not the imaginary terrorists. I like how you hide the reality of that behind "certain felonies" like there are none that would matter. I would have no problem with the law if it applied only to those convicted of, say, HIJACKING. That would be pretty short list. But the list includes "lying to federal officials"(which I don't think should even be a crime) and "conspiracy". So MOST of the people are on the list for trivial or petty crimes that have nothing to do with hijacking.
You forgot Poland.
Try to protest the President. You have to assemble miles away from where he's at. Brought to you by the Saviour himself.
Have you been touched by his noodly appendage?
To my knowledge, one. ,a href=http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2007/09/the_nofly_list.html>A known terrorist was stopped by security goons on arrival in the US. On questioning, he said that he was on his way to the White House in Washington. Purpose of visit, to meet the President. And why would he expect to achieve this? Because the President asked him to. Why would he do that? Can't tell you - security.
Cue substantial incredulity and a lengthy delay in proceedings, before it was established that Mr Gerry Adams was indeed an invited guest of the President of the United States.
Real Daleks don't climb stairs - they level the building.
Somewhere between 30 million and 50 million Soviet citizens were killed defeating those 'fascists'.
Please stick to the facts: staggering as they were, Soviet losses in WWII were 10 million civilian and 12 million military. And the Soviets were happy to back the Nazis until the Nazis actually attacked them, so don't try to make the Soviet Union out to be some glorious defender of freedoms here.
Unsurprising that thereafter there was a certain amount of paranoia in the USSR about 'fascism'.
There was no paranoia about the actual political system of fascism in the USSR because the USSR practiced fascism themselves. There was paranoia about the label "fascism", which the USSR then exploited for the purpose of propaganda and control.
For your amusement, a quote printed in Newsweek this week:
As far as I'm aware it's not a criminal offense to cook very strong chili
- Sue Wasboonma, owner of a London Thai restaurant, after police mistook fumes from her hot sauce for a chemical attack and evacuated buildings and streets
Apparently she was dry-frying nine pounds of chilis to make sauce, and due to weather conditions the resulting cloud of fumes descended on a nearby market street. Considering how harsh chili fumes can be...
Valve problems are one particular type of heart disease that is often congenital, however, they are also not nearly as common as heart attack and stroke, which are strongly linked to lifestyle. For example, this report from the American Heart Association shows that out of nearly 7 million heart procedures performed in 2004, only about 100,000 were valve operations - less than two percent.
The US Center for Disease Control states that "Much of the burden of heart disease and stroke could be eliminated by reducing their major risk factors: high blood pressure, high blood cholesterol, tobacco use, diabetes, physical inactivity, and poor nutrition."
So although you and your family fall into a small percentage of heart patients where lifestyle is probably not a factor, this does not make the well-recognized fact that most heart disease is strongly linked to lifestyle, as recognized by the CDC, the AHA, the AMA and every other evidence-based medical organization which has looked at epidemiological studies done in the United States.
I'm sorry to hear about your family's bad valves, and I apologize if you took my statements, based on broad statistics, as a criticism of your family's eating habits. Although only surgery is likely to fix your valves, you still get to choose your lifestyle, and this could determine whether you simply have inherited bad valves, or bad valves plus clogged arteries, which are a much, much more common killer.
My truck is like a series of tubes.
I'll agree to a 3-day waiting period for all my flights, if the airlines agree to let me know 3 days in advance when the plane is going to have mechanical trouble or otherwise be delayed or canceled. Not that those things ever happen. Haha just kidding - last month, over 30% of ALL US DOMESTIC AIR TRAVEL WAS DELAYED OR CANCELED. Thank you TSA for running such a tight ship and coming up with new ideas to help travellers get efficiently to their destinations. Morons.
Brilliant brilliant response. Thank you.
...Open Source isn't the only answer -- but it's almost always a better value than the alternatives...
"You can't leave with your money. Check with IRS, but I don't think they'll let you without filing forms and taxes and getting permission."
YES YOU CAN, and the fact that your would claim with certainty that it is otherwise, then say "I don't think" shows exactly how much you know about the topic.
"Denying ability to fly is for transportation like denying ability to buy food in a market is to eating."
Bullshit. The fact that you have to resort to an analogy between a necessity (food) and a luxury (airline travel) shows how far you had to twist reality to make if fit your moronic assumptions.
I only go to buffets for the unlimited soft serve.
"The OP most certainly did not say that"
Yes he did, you just don;'t like it.
"The OP said that things are "rapidly progressing" towards that level of tyranny."
Which is a comparison, "is like" is also a comparison, but apparently you're not smart enough to understand that.
"Apparently you, sir, are fucking blind"
No, I just have better reading comprehension than you. Not your fault really, intelligence is partially inherited, so it's your idiot parents combined with your idiot teachers that made you incapable of reading for comprehension above a third grade level.
I only go to buffets for the unlimited soft serve.
And how are you going to do that?
If you have only a name, it takes the same 10ms to figure out you've
got a bad name only match just as well 3 minutes before a flight as
it does 3 days before a flight.
Time is not the problem.
Not having even more intrusive personal data that you could
actually identify someone with is the problem.
A name only list will just give you a big pile of garbage.
A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
How empty and meaningless is your life that you get pissed at me for proving you wrong and track me down to use up all your mod points?
Like all fascists and cowards, you hide behind what little power you have.
Sadly for you, you're still a fucking idiot.
I only go to buffets for the unlimited soft serve.
Exactly. The government should be prohibited from asking the airline who is on the plane, and the airline should be prohibited from telling them, under ANY circumstances.
Agreed 1000%.
And money wasted by preventing "terrorism" is money that could save many more lives if spent on healthcare.
Again I agree.
FalconShould there be a Law?