The original question stated "Workstation-quality" graphics capability. $5000 is cheap for this class. SGI's lowest-end box is $4500 (The VisWS), and that's the bare minimum to be called "workstation quality"
Until the 3D card vendors get a clue and start releasing specs... As both the Voodoo2 and the Matrox G200 have proven, the driver interface is not the key to high performance.
The Voodoo2 worked under Linux before Darryl ported the Voodoo2 Glide drivers because someone changed one byte in the card detection code to fool Glide into thinking that a Voodoo2 was a 1. Worked great, didn't use the new features of the Voodoo2, but there weren't many. All a V2 is is a really fast dual-TMU V1 with a few small enhancements. 90+ percent of the performance differences between the V1 and V2 don't need those enhancements.
Someone used an alpha-level driver for the 3D portions of the Matrox Mill II on a G200 - It worked pretty decently, considering the quantum leap in 3D capability between the Mill II and the G200. (Nowhere near as good as the V2 story, tho.)
As far as my advice - Get an IRIX SGI. Once Linux's 3D performance is "there", going from SGI IRIX to Linux will be a lot easier than migrating to/from NT. Still, SGIs will probably be eternally ahead of Linux machines, with the exception of Linux running on SGI hardware, which looks like a very good possibility.:)
If this were a Linux-only expo, I'd be saying, "What the hell are they doing here. Get the hell out unless you actually plan on allowing Linux users to print!"
Lexmark doesn't even deserve to be within sight of anything Linux.
Can you tell I'm bitter that the Lex 5700 is Windows-only and Lex won't release the programming info?
Already, this proves that shells are not integrated into the OS. True, in almost all cases they are a necessary application, but it's not saying that bash and not tcsh is THE only shell you can use with Linux and work.
Microsoft is saying that their OS won't work without IE. They're not saying it's useless w/o a browser, they're saying IE. Plus, you should be able to remove your browser if you don't care about reading HTML. MS says you cannot do this with IE because it's integrated.
As far as the browser, we definately need to do that. It's quite obvious that browsers are NOT integrated into Linux.
OTOH, we do aim to be a MS competitor in every way possible, with servers being our current forte. But it says a lot that one of the only viable all-around competitors to Windows is completely free and is the labor of love of thousands of programmars who are rarely compensated in a direct monetary fashion for their work.
Nope. I never had that happen. It said absolutely nothing. And I would've noticed the bloat in the SALSA update. (Cornell has a really nice software update system.)
I think the page makes it pretty clear that this is a preliminary thing.
And just how are we supposed to get X support if we can't even boot a kernel?
This is just a first step, it may not be all you want, but it's incredibly important to getting the stuff you want developed in a timely fashion.
Anyway, there is a cool factor involved in it. Just like the completely useless PalmPilot/Linux port. It was cool, but useless. But unlike the Palm/Linux thing, this is a VERY necessary stepping stone to more support.
God, I remember trying to get PPP running on my first Linux box a few years ago... That was PURE HELL.
Then I started using pppd/minicom, and then I tried RedHat's control panel... It's sooooo easy with RedHat. Esp. with Earthlink, which automagically sets up your machine for their DNS...
How many times do I have to hear that the PPC is more thermally efficient than a Pentium in a single thread? I'm kind of getting sick of it. Some of us have reasons for using x86 architectures. It's not our goddamn fault that some of the applications we like just AREN'T AVAILABLE on your oh-so-perfect processor.
I happen to LIKE Quake/QuakeII, etc., especially with a good 3D accelerator. Considering how far behind PPC architectures lag behind in these arenas, I'll stick with my thermally inefficient x86, as much as I'd like to be able to switch to PPC, it's just not practical right now.
Don't give me that "Oh, we've got the Rage 128 now." excuse, how long did it take for that to happen? Still, the R128 has its dirty little secrets ATI doesn't tell you about. Did you know it takes a 30% or so performance cut if you enable trilinear filtering? And no, the Riva TNT doesn't, in fact, I don't think ANY modern cards do.
And "We're getting Quake II". How long has Quake II been out with no PPC port?
And don't even get me started on LinuxPPC and 3D - Zero 3D acceleration whatsoever. And one thing - Good luck EVER seeing support for the 3D portions of ATI chipsets. Can you say ANAL? Trying to get specs from ATI is like trying to squeeze apple juice from a moon rock.
Apple's love affair with ATI has doomed them to be eternally in the bottom of the barrel for 3D graphics performance until now. Now, they're just average.
Personally, thermal trouble is a small price to pay for being able to run the applications I want to.
The anodizing process basically leaves a thick layer of oxide on the aluminum, that's it.
The material created by anodizing isn't that great, but apparent immersing it in boiling water causes it to change form to a wonderful protective coating. (I think that's it...)
Look around on metalworking sites, you might be able to find a HOWTO for anodization.
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I think he was suggesting the use of other refrigerants. (Specificaly, I think he said R-134A, which is what modern AC systems use.)
The original question stated "Workstation-quality" graphics capability. $5000 is cheap for this class. SGI's lowest-end box is $4500 (The VisWS), and that's the bare minimum to be called "workstation quality"
$5K-10K is realistic, even more.
Until the 3D card vendors get a clue and start releasing specs... As both the Voodoo2 and the Matrox G200 have proven, the driver interface is not the key to high performance.
:)
The Voodoo2 worked under Linux before Darryl ported the Voodoo2 Glide drivers because someone changed one byte in the card detection code to fool Glide into thinking that a Voodoo2 was a 1. Worked great, didn't use the new features of the Voodoo2, but there weren't many. All a V2 is is a really fast dual-TMU V1 with a few small enhancements. 90+ percent of the performance differences between the V1 and V2 don't need those enhancements.
Someone used an alpha-level driver for the 3D portions of the Matrox Mill II on a G200 - It worked pretty decently, considering the quantum leap in 3D capability between the Mill II and the G200. (Nowhere near as good as the V2 story, tho.)
As far as my advice - Get an IRIX SGI. Once Linux's 3D performance is "there", going from SGI IRIX to Linux will be a lot easier than migrating to/from NT. Still, SGIs will probably be eternally ahead of Linux machines, with the exception of Linux running on SGI hardware, which looks like a very good possibility.
If this were a Linux-only expo, I'd be saying, "What the hell are they doing here. Get the hell out unless you actually plan on allowing Linux users to print!"
Lexmark doesn't even deserve to be within sight of anything Linux.
Can you tell I'm bitter that the Lex 5700 is Windows-only and Lex won't release the programming info?
Now I'm only an hour away instead of 4-5. :)
Note your use of shell(s) - plural.
Already, this proves that shells are not integrated into the OS. True, in almost all cases they are a necessary application, but it's not saying that bash and not tcsh is THE only shell you can use with Linux and work.
Microsoft is saying that their OS won't work without IE. They're not saying it's useless w/o a browser, they're saying IE. Plus, you should be able to remove your browser if you don't care about reading HTML. MS says you cannot do this with IE because it's integrated.
As far as the browser, we definately need to do that. It's quite obvious that browsers are NOT integrated into Linux.
OTOH, we do aim to be a MS competitor in every way possible, with servers being our current forte. But it says a lot that one of the only viable all-around competitors to Windows is completely free and is the labor of love of thousands of programmars who are rarely compensated in a direct monetary fashion for their work.
Help Darryl?
We all wish someone could, but he barely got the damn NDA for himself...
This is why I plan on skiing nearly every weekend. In addition, I'm going to Killington for spring break. :)
Still, no way in hell am I wearing Spandex.
I think that whole site is a joke to make fun of "leet hax0r" punks.
/. in the manner he did.
Of course, there was no point in posting it on
Um, Quake source is only available if you have a few hundred kilobucks to license the engine from id with. Doom source is out, but that's it.
Sort of. I believe the V2 does have a bit of geometry setup assistance, but not much. The host CPU is still the limiting factor in most cases.
I believe that 1.8x gain was with the hardware-accelerated version. (Voodoo2)
If they want to work on paralell Mesa, let them do so, so it's ready when a manufacturer gets a clue and releases specs.
Nope. I never had that happen. It said absolutely nothing. And I would've noticed the bloat in the SALSA update. (Cornell has a really nice software update system.)
I have Eudora Pro 4.0, Cornell has a full site license for it.
I do NOT have IE4 on this system!
I remember once going on a trip to Washington, DC to hang out with friends. Total trip mileage at the end: 666 :)
I think the page makes it pretty clear that this is a preliminary thing.
And just how are we supposed to get X support if we can't even boot a kernel?
This is just a first step, it may not be all you want, but it's incredibly important to getting the stuff you want developed in a timely fashion.
Anyway, there is a cool factor involved in it. Just like the completely useless PalmPilot/Linux port. It was cool, but useless. But unlike the Palm/Linux thing, this is a VERY necessary stepping stone to more support.
Yeah...
Even if it was audible, the compression process would most likely fry it to the point of being unrecognizable to the watermark noticer.
Yeah... I just downloaded a bunch of Orbital MP3s (admittedly not legal ones), and now I know what my next CD purchase will be. Orbital is cool.
(The reason I checked them out was the discussion of the music for Pi, which is unfortunately totally rented out at Hollywood Video...)
I had a $15 gift certificate for The Wall, unfortunately it expired before I could figure out what to buy...
God, I remember trying to get PPP running on my first Linux box a few years ago... That was PURE HELL.
Then I started using pppd/minicom, and then I tried RedHat's control panel... It's sooooo easy with RedHat. Esp. with Earthlink, which automagically sets up your machine for their DNS...
I agree...
:)
I've used a RedHat installation to help me with my Windows installation...
I can install RH in about a half hour... Windows... Hours, even days. And I've done numerous installations of both...
Now Slackware 2-3 years ago, downloaded onto floppies via modem... THAT was a bitch. Slack on CD was only slightly better.
I think he's saying that he ditched Netcom because Linux doesn't work with it.
How many times do I have to hear that the PPC is more thermally efficient than a Pentium in a single thread? I'm kind of getting sick of it. Some of us have reasons for using x86 architectures. It's not our goddamn fault that some of the applications we like just AREN'T AVAILABLE on your oh-so-perfect processor.
I happen to LIKE Quake/QuakeII, etc., especially with a good 3D accelerator. Considering how far behind PPC architectures lag behind in these arenas, I'll stick with my thermally inefficient x86, as much as I'd like to be able to switch to PPC, it's just not practical right now.
Don't give me that "Oh, we've got the Rage 128 now." excuse, how long did it take for that to happen? Still, the R128 has its dirty little secrets ATI doesn't tell you about. Did you know it takes a 30% or so performance cut if you enable trilinear filtering? And no, the Riva TNT doesn't, in fact, I don't think ANY modern cards do.
And "We're getting Quake II". How long has Quake II been out with no PPC port?
And don't even get me started on LinuxPPC and 3D - Zero 3D acceleration whatsoever. And one thing - Good luck EVER seeing support for the 3D portions of ATI chipsets. Can you say ANAL? Trying to get specs from ATI is like trying to squeeze apple juice from a moon rock.
Apple's love affair with ATI has doomed them to be eternally in the bottom of the barrel for 3D graphics performance until now. Now, they're just average.
Personally, thermal trouble is a small price to pay for being able to run the applications I want to.
The anodizing process basically leaves a thick layer of oxide on the aluminum, that's it.
The material created by anodizing isn't that great, but apparent immersing it in boiling water causes it to change form to a wonderful protective coating. (I think that's it...)
Look around on metalworking sites, you might be able to find a HOWTO for anodization.
Show me a decent 3D card that works with a PPC, and I'll switch.
Esp. LinuxPPC.
Linux has one available 3D card, the Voodoo/V2. Which is only supported on Intel platforms.