I came back because of the mac client, and thus far it has performed fine on my old mackbook pro (ati x1600, 2gb ram). The graphics aren't stellar, the fps dies in some of the notoriously bad areas (eg vanguard hq), there's a few glitches that force me to restart the game from time-to-time, but overall it's a pretty good experience. Most of the time it just works fine.
Regarding the mission architect, I can't imagine that it will help much. Perhaps someone will start cranking out interesting tactical puzzles for groups, but otherwise who needs more random walls of text surrounding the same mission types? A kill-all is a kill-all, regardless if the evil Dr X is threatening the electrical grid, the rikti are re-invading for the umpteenth time, or whatever.
What the game needs desperately are more features of a persistant universe, where your choices affect the gameplay of others and change the world.
"Maybe there would be more documentation if you established reasonable deadlines."
Nonsense. I despise this excuse - you make it sound like documentation is difficult to write. If it's clear in your head, it will take you moments to put down onto paper. If it's not clear in your head, you have a problem.
I have never understood the so-called geniuses who have time to work overnight on some problem but can't find a spare hour to document and comment. Heck, if you're doing it right you should be commenting as you go anyways, just to keep your own thoughts straight.
But go ahead, don't listen. Blame the bosses. It's always their fault. The genius hacker is always beat up by evil management in the standard slashdot saga.
"Packets are packets are packets. IPs are IPS are IPs. Data is Data is Data. There are no tubes, no roads, no cars, no tiers, no premium IPs or domain names. Net neutrality is the only sane answer."
So when emergency call is held up because WOW released the latest patch and everyone in my neighborhood is downloading will you still feel the same way?
How about if there is a disaster? Can I prioritize connections to the local hospitals, fire depts, police, etc ahead of residential?
Sorry, but if this stuff is public, then the public necessarily *should* be deciding which packets are the most important.
"Still, you have a bunch of radioactive crap to deal with."
How much is a "bunch", precisely? How does the "radiocative crap" compare with the "crap" generated by other other technologies?
Every single tech to generate power has a major downside. Sadly, the biggest hurdle in nuclear power isn't the bunch of crap it leaves, but people's fear of it simply because it has the label "radioactive".
"It really is frustrating how intensely climate science is doubted and denied."
I know when I'm being conned, and this is a doozy. A bunch of people tell me that the I have to give up items that are central to my life, ask for money so they can keep doing "their work", but are utterly unable to give me definitive answers as to why. Even worse, when I ask for a definitive reason before I give up those items and fork over the money, I'm belittled.
But you know what, I tried to follow this up for myself. I read some articles on the net and in some magazines that laid-out the link between humans and global warming. And everything I read said "oh, and we have this computer model right over here that conclusively demonstrates that link, but you can't have that model, you just have to accept our word on faith".
What a joke. I am surprised at the airtime this nonsense gets on a site that deals with science. Next up, bigfoot!
***but the "liberal media" myth has been pretty thoroughly debunked***
Being "pooh-poohed" by liberals is not the same as "debunked".
As an independent who has huge issues with both parties, it is quite evident that the news media, with the obvious exceptions of fox and various talk radio, simply loves Obama beyond all rational reason. If Bush had proposed a guy who can't even manage his own taxes (turbo tax did it!) for treasury secretary he would have been ripped a new one. If Diane Feinstein was a republican who opposed net neutrality, you bet there would be an (R) next to her name every time.
Nothing debunked...it's the same as it's been all my life. The news media has a very strong socialist bent and paints its news stories using socialist colors.
How is it BS? You run boring missions over and over until you can run higher level boring missions that give more ISK and require a more powerful ship with more skills. Until you finally get to the top and decided to PvP.
There is nothing in the game forcing you to level in the PvE missions. You could chose to be a trader, miner, salvager, or manufacturer.
Nor do you need to "level-up" all the way. I would have to look at the numbers again, but once you have a PvE cruiser capable of tackling the level II missions, you'll make plenty of money to fund a frigate-flying PvP life.
Finally, life in eve is not only about bigger boats. Small ships have a place.
To summarize:
- Small ships have a place in combat. - Vets are little better at small-ships than a focusssed-noob with a few months training time. Vets just have many more skills than noobs that have nothing to do with small ships. - It doesn't take that much money to fly small ships.
Nice analogy extension that's total BS beyond your opinion of Eve's treadmill (I don't think it's so bad, you do, whatever).
But competitively, if I'm in a top-level tier 1 frigate (rifter, etc) with max skills, and you are too, then we're even. It doesn't matter that you're also an accomplished miner, interceptor pilot, etc. What matters is the skills you're using now.
Even if my skills aren't quite as good as yours, I can still be within 5% or so in a variety of dimensions, having spent a lot less time training. So yeah, the noob is quite on the same plane, but it's not so totally unbalanced.
Until the day that the tier 1 small ships (frigates, cruisers) are not viable in combat this will be the case. But many people delight in taking these guys into combat - they are cheap and do the job that they need to do.
WOW will be dethroned only when someone programs to lower-end machines. All these MMOs act like mass pixels is the height of design. WoW undercut them and achieved a wider audience with no competition.
I can make a bunch of copies to give away to people in china. A custom official can then confiscate those copies, then donate them to a charity which just gives them away anyways.
Apparently you fail at reading comprehension - I'm blaming the congress for failing to perform their constitutional duties. One of those would be impeaching a president. Only Kucinich had the guts to start the process.
***So, again, you can fault the Democrats for not having the backbone to tell them to go to hell or even that they had better damn well be reporting back weekly for approval, but placing primary responsibility on them is incorrect.***
I'm sorry, I can't let this one slide.
The congress passes laws, not the executive branch. The congress has the power to declare war, not the executive branch.
The problems in our country have been caused by a craven congress (both parties) who refuse to take their congressional responsibilities seriously.
Then again, we get what we elect - cowards who spend money to appease the masses, not fiscally responsible leaders who set limits and actually take governing seriously.
"It's not sufficient to be willing to die following orders. You must also be willing to die for disobeying immoral orders. Otherwise you're just a mercenary."
So if someone tells you to follow orders or your wife and family will be put into the prison camp, are you still a mercenary? Or are you caught in an impossible situation and trying to make a choice that nobody should have to make?
I'm not saying that this was the situation in the American military, but let's not be so hasty to judge people. At least, let's presume them innocent, keep their identities secret, and follow-up in a measured manner rather than chance ruining their good names in the court of public opinion.
I am amazed that your ill-supported rant got rated so highly. Do you have any supporting evidence for your wild accusations? "Engineers with the lowest rated performance usually get that rating because they are thorough, methodical and diligent."... "The best performers typically sacrifice aspects of the job which aren't rated in order to achieve that rating."
Where did you come up with this nonsense?
In my working experience (both as programmer, administrator [dba/sys], manager), the worst performers are usually personality problems, with very little to do with ability. People with technical ability are a dime-a-dozen, and the need for *stellar* technical ability in real-world situations is minimal. But it is very important for technical people to interface with their team, customers, and management. When someone gets layed-off, it is typically about due to their inability to get along, not to their technical performance.
"Does anyone believe that the 2000 election was a legitimate Bush win?"
As I recall, that was all about the poor layout and handling of paper ballots ("butterfly ballots"). Diebold's machines were a reaction to that (over-reaction, IMO).
"...long anti-bush rant..."
Who cares? I know that it's fun to bash Bush, but geez, let's stick to bashing diebold.
Anyways, I disagree entirely that this has anything to do with Bush. In MD, the republicans are mostly a non-factor, and we got our stupid machines just like others. If you want to keep your consipiracies straight, blame this one on the glitzy news media who somehow feels that up-to-the-minute results are vastly more important than a measured and corrupt-free (as much as possible) vote.
For the record, I have no problem with computerized entry machines, but the final output that I turn-in needs to be easily readable paper that is counted by human eyes at some point in the process, IMO. If you want to have a machine also count it to get you your american-idol, this-minute results, then fine, but over the following weeks the official count should be handled by humans.
"Your assessment sounds a lot like the idea that a doctor saved a person's life is a 'shallow analysis', because the patient spent the next three decades smoking and eventually died of lung disease."
Triage is common in medicine. The OP wasn't saying the life wasn't worth saying - he was saying that the resources needed to do so were likely better spent elsewhere.
So rather than taking money from US citizens, stealing a portion of it to fund bureacrats, and then giving the reaminder to a failing business (otherwise know as "throwing good money after bad"), it may have been best to leave that money in the hands of the US citizens to begin with.
This is a pretty easy question. You are teaching basic programming to someone who has no prior experience. Teach them to think like a computer first - assignment, decisions, branching. Show them how that's a state machine, but don't delve deeply. Show them a few assembly statements (but don't make them program in assembly) so they really see how it works down deep.
Let them code the towers of hanoi and all the other basic fun stuff. Don't throw heavy theory at them right now.
Class #2 is a great point to extend towards your favorite. Now that you've got them doing basic programs, you can show them the pitfalls and why is superior. But first, ground them in the basics.
maybe your daughter was exposed to a virus at the doctor's office, seperate from the immunization.
As a recent father, I wonder about these things myself, but it's hard to correlate an immunization with a sickness, while filtering out the simple risks involved in going to the doctor and poking a hole into the skin.
When someone signs a contract, it is their responsibility to carry through on that contract, and their fault if they don't. Poor/rich...I really don't care.
So from the banks that loaned vastly more than they should, all the way down to the "poor schmoe" who bought into a mortgage that he couldn't afford...they all are to blame.
What I don't like is that all of them are now coming to me asking for money. I didn't do nothing, but apparently a democracy means that reckless can take take what they want from rest of us.
"You're perspective's demented, because you think cpu performance still matters for end users. "
It depends - in mmorpgs (e.g. daoc) i have found cpu performance to be a significant factor when it comes to lag. Not the only significant, but certainly one of them. Maybe that's updating the UI, I'm not sure, but it is.
As for the future, if your cpu has enough unused horsepower, why not move some of the graphical functions off the graphics card and back into the cpu? E.g. do the physics calculations in software if you have the oomph.
"And frankly I dont see any commitment aside from dedicated gamers and the businesses for whom computing is life."
Oracle just recently moved metalink to a flash-based engine, which appears to suck down serious horses on my machine at work. I think there's plenty of room still for a thick client.
The current situation re:insurance is brought about by over-regulation coupled with lawyers running wild. While I grant that govt control will put a lid on the latter issue, the former will simply get worse.
"Certain people in power want you to believe competent government cant exist, but it does all over the world."
Hah. Every last one of them has huge failings that people overlook. For example, on slashdot today there was a story about the education system failures in the UK, which certainly mirrors my observations in the US, and I presume elsewhere.
Govt screws everything up. In the case of a military, there isn't much choice (mercenaries are a far worse solution, historically). But we need to be very careful about what we shove under government control.
"Republicans love to sell you on this line because it helps their corporate masters make more money and provides an excuse for their corruption in office."
In your words, bull. For the record, I am not a republican, and resent the inference. Furthermore, both parties are in the pockets of corporations - e.g. fannie and freddie gave more money to his majesty Barak Obama than the evil McCain. The dems also have ties to organized cri...er, I mean the sweet and cuddly unions, but there's only good there, right?
But it's not just corporations, it's our civil rights that get screwed up as well. Obama voted for FISA (after saying he wouldn't) right along with the republicans. Many democrats also joined the republicans to vote for the pseudo-war in Iraq.
Both parties want you to believe that they can do for you better than you can yourself. Both parties pander to the public by promising free suff. Both parties are simply in it for the power, not for our own good.
Government screws up everything it touches. Roads, military (talk to someone in the military and you'll get a million stories), mail, everything.
I'm not advocating zero government here, but we need to be wary about giving the government more work to do on such basic services. The opportunities for corruption (intentional or due to negligence) are immense here. Right now I fail to see the pros outweighing the cons when it comes to both govt-controlled internet and health care.
"Get off the damn computer and pay attention to me when I'm around."
I've found in life that it goes both ways. I'm not saying the men are right for playing games (watching sports, whatever) instead of spending more time with their ladies, but the ladies are often *also* (-see that word?) at fault in their treatment of the men. Many women treat men as a comfort appendage: if the man is not attending to their comfort, then the man is at fault for neglecting them.
Slashdot Mirror
I came back because of the mac client, and thus far it has performed fine on my old mackbook pro (ati x1600, 2gb ram). The graphics aren't stellar, the fps dies in some of the notoriously bad areas (eg vanguard hq), there's a few glitches that force me to restart the game from time-to-time, but overall it's a pretty good experience. Most of the time it just works fine.
Regarding the mission architect, I can't imagine that it will help much. Perhaps someone will start cranking out interesting tactical puzzles for groups, but otherwise who needs more random walls of text surrounding the same mission types? A kill-all is a kill-all, regardless if the evil Dr X is threatening the electrical grid, the rikti are re-invading for the umpteenth time, or whatever.
What the game needs desperately are more features of a persistant universe, where your choices affect the gameplay of others and change the world.
-Jeff
"Maybe there would be more documentation if you established reasonable deadlines."
Nonsense. I despise this excuse - you make it sound like documentation is difficult to write. If it's clear in your head, it will take you moments to put down onto paper. If it's not clear in your head, you have a problem.
I have never understood the so-called geniuses who have time to work overnight on some problem but can't find a spare hour to document and comment. Heck, if you're doing it right you should be commenting as you go anyways, just to keep your own thoughts straight.
But go ahead, don't listen. Blame the bosses. It's always their fault. The genius hacker is always beat up by evil management in the standard slashdot saga.
Again, utter nonsense.
-Jeff
"Packets are packets are packets. IPs are IPS are IPs. Data is Data is Data. There are no tubes, no roads, no cars, no tiers, no premium IPs or domain names. Net neutrality is the only sane answer."
So when emergency call is held up because WOW released the latest patch and everyone in my neighborhood is downloading will you still feel the same way?
How about if there is a disaster? Can I prioritize connections to the local hospitals, fire depts, police, etc ahead of residential?
Sorry, but if this stuff is public, then the public necessarily *should* be deciding which packets are the most important.
-Jeff
"Still, you have a bunch of radioactive crap to deal with."
How much is a "bunch", precisely? How does the "radiocative crap" compare with the "crap" generated by other other technologies?
Every single tech to generate power has a major downside. Sadly, the biggest hurdle in nuclear power isn't the bunch of crap it leaves, but people's fear of it simply because it has the label "radioactive".
-Jeff
"It really is frustrating how intensely climate science is doubted and denied."
I know when I'm being conned, and this is a doozy. A bunch of people tell me that the I have to give up items that are central to my life, ask for money so they can keep doing "their work", but are utterly unable to give me definitive answers as to why. Even worse, when I ask for a definitive reason before I give up those items and fork over the money, I'm belittled.
But you know what, I tried to follow this up for myself. I read some articles on the net and in some magazines that laid-out the link between humans and global warming. And everything I read said "oh, and we have this computer model right over here that conclusively demonstrates that link, but you can't have that model, you just have to accept our word on faith".
What a joke. I am surprised at the airtime this nonsense gets on a site that deals with science. Next up, bigfoot!
-Jeff
***but the "liberal media" myth has been pretty thoroughly debunked***
Being "pooh-poohed" by liberals is not the same as "debunked".
As an independent who has huge issues with both parties, it is quite evident that the news media, with the obvious exceptions of fox and various talk radio, simply loves Obama beyond all rational reason. If Bush had proposed a guy who can't even manage his own taxes (turbo tax did it!) for treasury secretary he would have been ripped a new one. If Diane Feinstein was a republican who opposed net neutrality, you bet there would be an (R) next to her name every time.
Nothing debunked...it's the same as it's been all my life. The news media has a very strong socialist bent and paints its news stories using socialist colors.
-Jeff
When did anonymity become an "essential liberty"? I dispute that entirely.
I prefer the old western notion of honor - you have your good name and your good word. If you have something to say, stand up and say it.
On a more practical note, problems like spam mostly go away as soon as you do away with anonymity.
-Jeff
How is it BS? You run boring missions over and over until you can run higher level boring missions that give more ISK and require a more powerful ship with more skills. Until you finally get to the top and decided to PvP.
There is nothing in the game forcing you to level in the PvE missions. You could chose to be a trader, miner, salvager, or manufacturer.
Nor do you need to "level-up" all the way. I would have to look at the numbers again, but once you have a PvE cruiser capable of tackling the level II missions, you'll make plenty of money to fund a frigate-flying PvP life.
Finally, life in eve is not only about bigger boats. Small ships have a place.
To summarize:
- Small ships have a place in combat.
- Vets are little better at small-ships than a focusssed-noob with a few months training time. Vets just have many more skills than noobs that have nothing to do with small ships.
- It doesn't take that much money to fly small ships.
Nice analogy extension that's total BS beyond your opinion of Eve's treadmill (I don't think it's so bad, you do, whatever).
But competitively, if I'm in a top-level tier 1 frigate (rifter, etc) with max skills, and you are too, then we're even. It doesn't matter that you're also an accomplished miner, interceptor pilot, etc. What matters is the skills you're using now.
Even if my skills aren't quite as good as yours, I can still be within 5% or so in a variety of dimensions, having spent a lot less time training. So yeah, the noob is quite on the same plane, but it's not so totally unbalanced.
Until the day that the tier 1 small ships (frigates, cruisers) are not viable in combat this will be the case. But many people delight in taking these guys into combat - they are cheap and do the job that they need to do.
WOW will be dethroned only when someone programs to lower-end machines. All these MMOs act like mass pixels is the height of design. WoW undercut them and achieved a wider audience with no competition.
-Jeff
Actually, it's a bit more than that.
I can make a bunch of copies to give away to people in china. A custom official can then confiscate those copies, then donate them to a charity which just gives them away anyways.
-Jeff
Apparently you fail at reading comprehension - I'm blaming the congress for failing to perform their constitutional duties. One of those would be impeaching a president. Only Kucinich had the guts to start the process.
-Jeff
***So, again, you can fault the Democrats for not having the backbone to tell them to go to hell or even that they had better damn well be reporting back weekly for approval, but placing primary responsibility on them is incorrect.***
I'm sorry, I can't let this one slide.
The congress passes laws, not the executive branch. The congress has the power to declare war, not the executive branch.
The problems in our country have been caused by a craven congress (both parties) who refuse to take their congressional responsibilities seriously.
Then again, we get what we elect - cowards who spend money to appease the masses, not fiscally responsible leaders who set limits and actually take governing seriously.
-Jeff
"It's not sufficient to be willing to die following orders. You must also be willing to die for disobeying immoral orders. Otherwise you're just a mercenary."
So if someone tells you to follow orders or your wife and family will be put into the prison camp, are you still a mercenary? Or are you caught in an impossible situation and trying to make a choice that nobody should have to make?
I'm not saying that this was the situation in the American military, but let's not be so hasty to judge people. At least, let's presume them innocent, keep their identities secret, and follow-up in a measured manner rather than chance ruining their good names in the court of public opinion.
-Jeff
I am amazed that your ill-supported rant got rated so highly. Do you have any supporting evidence for your wild accusations? "Engineers with the lowest rated performance usually get that rating because they are thorough, methodical and diligent." ... "The best performers typically sacrifice aspects of the job which aren't rated in order to achieve that rating."
Where did you come up with this nonsense?
In my working experience (both as programmer, administrator [dba/sys], manager), the worst performers are usually personality problems, with very little to do with ability. People with technical ability are a dime-a-dozen, and the need for *stellar* technical ability in real-world situations is minimal. But it is very important for technical people to interface with their team, customers, and management. When someone gets layed-off, it is typically about due to their inability to get along, not to their technical performance.
-Jefff
"Does anyone believe that the 2000 election was a legitimate Bush win?"
As I recall, that was all about the poor layout and handling of paper ballots ("butterfly ballots"). Diebold's machines were a reaction to that (over-reaction, IMO).
"...long anti-bush rant..."
Who cares? I know that it's fun to bash Bush, but geez, let's stick to bashing diebold.
Anyways, I disagree entirely that this has anything to do with Bush. In MD, the republicans are mostly a non-factor, and we got our stupid machines just like others. If you want to keep your consipiracies straight, blame this one on the glitzy news media who somehow feels that up-to-the-minute results are vastly more important than a measured and corrupt-free (as much as possible) vote.
For the record, I have no problem with computerized entry machines, but the final output that I turn-in needs to be easily readable paper that is counted by human eyes at some point in the process, IMO. If you want to have a machine also count it to get you your american-idol, this-minute results, then fine, but over the following weeks the official count should be handled by humans.
-Jeff
"Your assessment sounds a lot like the idea that a doctor saved a person's life is a 'shallow analysis', because the patient spent the next three decades smoking and eventually died of lung disease."
Triage is common in medicine. The OP wasn't saying the life wasn't worth saying - he was saying that the resources needed to do so were likely better spent elsewhere.
So rather than taking money from US citizens, stealing a portion of it to fund bureacrats, and then giving the reaminder to a failing business (otherwise know as "throwing good money after bad"), it may have been best to leave that money in the hands of the US citizens to begin with.
-Jeff
This is a pretty easy question. You are teaching basic programming to someone who has no prior experience. Teach them to think like a computer first - assignment, decisions, branching. Show them how that's a state machine, but don't delve deeply. Show them a few assembly statements (but don't make them program in assembly) so they really see how it works down deep.
Let them code the towers of hanoi and all the other basic fun stuff. Don't throw heavy theory at them right now.
Class #2 is a great point to extend towards your favorite. Now that you've got them doing basic programs, you can show them the pitfalls and why is superior. But first, ground them in the basics.
-Jeff
maybe your daughter was exposed to a virus at the doctor's office, seperate from the immunization.
As a recent father, I wonder about these things myself, but it's hard to correlate an immunization with a sickness, while filtering out the simple risks involved in going to the doctor and poking a hole into the skin.
-Jeff
There's plenty of blame all around.
When someone signs a contract, it is their responsibility to carry through on that contract, and their fault if they don't. Poor/rich...I really don't care.
So from the banks that loaned vastly more than they should, all the way down to the "poor schmoe" who bought into a mortgage that he couldn't afford...they all are to blame.
What I don't like is that all of them are now coming to me asking for money. I didn't do nothing, but apparently a democracy means that reckless can take take what they want from rest of us.
-Jeff
"You're perspective's demented, because you think cpu performance still matters for end users. "
It depends - in mmorpgs (e.g. daoc) i have found cpu performance to be a significant factor when it comes to lag. Not the only significant, but certainly one of them. Maybe that's updating the UI, I'm not sure, but it is.
As for the future, if your cpu has enough unused horsepower, why not move some of the graphical functions off the graphics card and back into the cpu? E.g. do the physics calculations in software if you have the oomph.
"And frankly I dont see any commitment aside from dedicated gamers and the businesses for whom computing is life."
Oracle just recently moved metalink to a flash-based engine, which appears to suck down serious horses on my machine at work. I think there's plenty of room still for a thick client.
The current situation re:insurance is brought about by over-regulation coupled with lawyers running wild. While I grant that govt control will put a lid on the latter issue, the former will simply get worse.
"Certain people in power want you to believe competent government cant exist, but it does all over the world."
Hah. Every last one of them has huge failings that people overlook. For example, on slashdot today there was a story about the education system failures in the UK, which certainly mirrors my observations in the US, and I presume elsewhere.
Govt screws everything up. In the case of a military, there isn't much choice (mercenaries are a far worse solution, historically). But we need to be very careful about what we shove under government control.
"Republicans love to sell you on this line because it helps their corporate masters make more money and provides an excuse for their corruption in office."
In your words, bull. For the record, I am not a republican, and resent the inference. Furthermore, both parties are in the pockets of corporations - e.g. fannie and freddie gave more money to his majesty Barak Obama than the evil McCain. The dems also have ties to organized cri...er, I mean the sweet and cuddly unions, but there's only good there, right?
But it's not just corporations, it's our civil rights that get screwed up as well. Obama voted for FISA (after saying he wouldn't) right along with the republicans. Many democrats also joined the republicans to vote for the pseudo-war in Iraq.
Both parties want you to believe that they can do for you better than you can yourself. Both parties pander to the public by promising free suff. Both parties are simply in it for the power, not for our own good.
-Jeff
"You sound like someone without a pre-existing condition."
I have crohn's disease. It put me in the hospital twice, and I need to buy supplies for the rest of my life.
-Jeff
Government screws up everything it touches. Roads, military (talk to someone in the military and you'll get a million stories), mail, everything.
I'm not advocating zero government here, but we need to be wary about giving the government more work to do on such basic services. The opportunities for corruption (intentional or due to negligence) are immense here. Right now I fail to see the pros outweighing the cons when it comes to both govt-controlled internet and health care.
-Jeff
"Get off the damn computer and pay attention to me when I'm around."
I've found in life that it goes both ways. I'm not saying the men are right for playing games (watching sports, whatever) instead of spending more time with their ladies, but the ladies are often *also* (-see that word?) at fault in their treatment of the men. Many women treat men as a comfort appendage: if the man is not attending to their comfort, then the man is at fault for neglecting them.
-Jeff