On average, it's the RedHat users that are too stupid to realize the difference between the version number of the kernel and the distribution. Not that most of them know what a kernel is...
You can read Theo's archive of emails during that time. NetBSD has mailling list archives that might provide some interesting info too.
Of what i remember (hopefully i remember correctly) from his archive (i.e. primarily his side of the story) he was kicked out fairly abruptly for "personality problems". I think the primary complaint was "abusing users and other developers" or something similar. I dont know any of the specifics of the "abuses". I've seen a couple (very funny) replies of his (such as "Well, i guess you're just stupid then.") that could be considered as sarcasm or as a flame, depending.
What everything came down to was some other guy with influence in NetBSD (i think his name was Charles) was causing some problems and wouldnt work out a deal with Theo to give him cvs write access and everyone wanted to impose rules on theo that didnt apply to others. NetBSD-CORE was a bit fucked and in a state of disorder. A lot of feelings got hurt. A half a year or so went buy, nothing changed and Theo started OpenBSD.
I'm sure that's not entirely right. But its close, i hope.
BSD people are more hostile toward stupid questions. And they are hostile toward linux users, just like linux users are towards BSD.
So if you go and ask stupid questions and demand to know why Foo isnt like Foo in Linux, you'll get bitched at or ignored.
I've been treated quite nicely by the BSD people. The IRC channels are more helpfull (as oposed to #linux on effnet). Documentation varies, FreeBSD has good documentation -- online and paper. OpenBSD leaves me in the dark a lot of times, but for the most part things are "obvious" after doing it in FreeBSD or i can look at NetBSD documentation and make proper changes. The mailling lists are great, but so are some of the Linux distrobutions (debian comes to mind).
Too me, In general the kernel developement seems more open in the bsd's than in linux.
But i'm biased towards BSD. (OpenBSD on my laptop, a couple freebsds lying around and one netbsd, no linux's anymore but i'm considering installing a debian again for java work).
And finally, i'm trying my best not to Act like a newbie, ie. i dont email a mailling list saying "I'm a newbie how do i become a elite kernel hacker". Instead i'm trying to grok code and read everything i can before asking questions. "Newbie" is both a state of mind and an attitude. One is good the other is bad, i'll let you work out which is which
If you want to get into BSD kernel developement, the standard recomendation seems to be "The Design and Implementation of the 4.4BSD Operating System". Its like $50 for the hardcover from amazon.com.
I'm about to buy this myself as i'm wanting to get into OpenBSD a bit more. Does anyone else have any recomendations for BSD kernel work (books or online docs)?
This was posted on mailing.freebsd.chat and crossposted to a number of other newsgroups. "Ours" in this case refers to FreeBSD and "Theirs" refers to Linux (note the date): -------------- On Thu, 17 Feb 2000, Brad Knowles wrote: > See some of Matt Dillon's comments regarding Linux. Our memory >management scheme beats the crap out of theirs, although their SMP is >ahead of ours. --------------
There are a number of other posts similar to that (the majority being in freebsd related newsgroups). Also from my (usually bad) memory, FreeBSD only supports 2 CPU's while linux supports 4 (although, i think, more are supposedly possible on both). I'm also pretty sure that Linux has supported SMP longer than FreeBSD (which only had it starting with 3.0)
There was a link on some website i saw recently claiming that FreeBSD was ~20% faster with SMP. The link to the benchmark was broken, though.
Without benchmarks, i tend not to belive either one. Unless you are running a server or doing some serious rendering or cracking, it probably will not make THAT much of a difference.
And of course, i must mention 1) FreeBSD 4.0 is coming out soon, and SMP i would assume has been improved and 2) ftp.cdrom.com is running off of a dual Xeon running FreeBSD.
Well.. Democracy in the first place would be nice. I know, i know.. i'm an american, and i cannot complain all too much. But we live in an age where a True Democracy can be implemented. Not a Republic. Something where the Individual is free and the Government is kept on a leash.
Besides, Anarchy is Not a bad thing. (http://flag.blackened.net)
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On average, it's the RedHat users that are too stupid to realize the difference between the version number of the kernel and the distribution. Not that most of them know what a kernel is...
^Z
I agree with that, entirely. And its probably part of the reason that Linux is popular and *BSD is not.
As a side note, you mentioning IRC reminded me of the fact that #freebsd on efnet will kick/ban anyone asking a help question. (Use #freebsdhelp)
Definitely a bit too hostile on occasions.
*shrug* I'm still happy with my half dozen BSD boxen and still would rather work with OpenBSD than any other OS i've used so far.
You can read Theo's archive of emails during that time. NetBSD has mailling list archives that might provide some interesting info too.
:wq
Of what i remember (hopefully i remember correctly) from his archive (i.e. primarily his side of the story) he was kicked out fairly abruptly for "personality problems". I think the primary complaint was "abusing users and other developers" or something similar. I dont know any of the specifics of the "abuses". I've seen a couple (very funny) replies of his (such as "Well, i guess you're just stupid then.") that could be considered as sarcasm or as a flame, depending.
What everything came down to was some other guy with influence in NetBSD (i think his name was Charles) was causing some problems and wouldnt work out a deal with Theo to give him cvs write access and everyone wanted to impose rules on theo that didnt apply to others. NetBSD-CORE was a bit fucked and in a state of disorder. A lot of feelings got hurt. A half a year or so went buy, nothing changed and Theo started OpenBSD.
I'm sure that's not entirely right. But its close, i hope.
BSD people are more hostile toward stupid questions. And they are hostile toward linux users, just like linux users are towards BSD.
So if you go and ask stupid questions and demand to know why Foo isnt like Foo in Linux, you'll get bitched at or ignored.
I've been treated quite nicely by the BSD people. The IRC channels are more helpfull (as oposed to #linux on effnet). Documentation varies, FreeBSD has good documentation -- online and paper. OpenBSD leaves me in the dark a lot of times, but for the most part things are "obvious" after doing it in FreeBSD or i can look at NetBSD documentation and make proper changes. The mailling lists are great, but so are some of the Linux distrobutions (debian comes to mind).
Too me, In general the kernel developement seems more open in the bsd's than in linux.
But i'm biased towards BSD. (OpenBSD on my laptop, a couple freebsds lying around and one netbsd, no linux's anymore but i'm considering installing a debian again for java work).
And finally, i'm trying my best not to Act like a newbie, ie. i dont email a mailling list saying "I'm a newbie how do i become a elite kernel hacker". Instead i'm trying to grok code and read everything i can before asking questions. "Newbie" is both a state of mind and an attitude. One is good the other is bad, i'll let you work out which is which
:wq
If you want to get into BSD kernel developement, the standard recomendation seems to be "The Design and Implementation of the 4.4BSD Operating System". Its like $50 for the hardcover from amazon.com.
I'm about to buy this myself as i'm wanting to get into OpenBSD a bit more. Does anyone else have any recomendations for BSD kernel work (books or online docs)?
:wq
Well, voting over the internet may give more power to the lazy but i'm sure glad it does not give more power to the stupid. :wq
Is anyone working on a newer OpenBSD port of Mozilla? The one in the port tree is REALLY old.
What about NetBSD? I think they are in the same state as OpenBSD, but i dont know.
:wq
What are your views on the success and the future of AI?
:wq
This was posted on mailing.freebsd.chat and crossposted to a number of other newsgroups.
"Ours" in this case refers to FreeBSD and "Theirs" refers to Linux (note the date):
--------------
On Thu, 17 Feb 2000, Brad Knowles wrote:
> See some of Matt Dillon's comments regarding Linux. Our memory
>management scheme beats the crap out of theirs, although their SMP is
>ahead of ours.
--------------
There are a number of other posts similar to that (the majority being in freebsd related newsgroups). Also from my (usually bad) memory, FreeBSD only supports 2 CPU's while linux supports 4 (although, i think, more are supposedly possible on both). I'm also pretty sure that Linux has supported SMP longer than FreeBSD (which only had it starting with 3.0)
There was a link on some website i saw recently claiming that FreeBSD was ~20% faster with SMP. The link to the benchmark was broken, though.
Without benchmarks, i tend not to belive either one. Unless you are running a server or doing some serious rendering or cracking, it probably will not make THAT much of a difference.
And of course, i must mention 1) FreeBSD 4.0 is coming out soon, and SMP i would assume has been improved and 2) ftp.cdrom.com is running off of a dual Xeon running FreeBSD.
:wq
Social change and Diversity... first, perhaps?
Well.. Democracy in the first place would be nice. I know, i know.. i'm an american, and i cannot complain all too much. But we live in an age where a True Democracy can be implemented. Not a Republic. Something where the Individual is free and the Government is kept on a leash.
Besides, Anarchy is Not a bad thing.
(http://flag.blackened.net)
:wq