Its not about Package Format (as in RPM or.deb), its about the collection of patches that the BSD people add to get non-portable software working on their systems. Currently each BSD maintains a seperate collection of those patches plus description's of the package, SHA1 sums, master file repositories, author, license, etc for their Ports (i.e. seperate Ports Trees). There is a lot of duplication between the ports tree's. Its not uncommon to find that a FreeBSD port works fine on OpenBSD (although it may not be in the ports tree).
Well, I think it should be just as simple (ok, nothing is ever as simple as it should be) as having $OpenBSD_Port = no. And when OpenBSD goes to ship, it filters out all the "$OpenBSD_Port=no" Ports.
And there will be the case that there are NetBSD Specific patches that FreeBSD doesnt want to accept, those would need to be #ifdef'd too. It would be a lot of work... but the more i think about it, the more i think it would be worth it...
I basically agree with the comments at Daemonnews. It is a really good idea. But there are a number of technical reasons: all three BSD's use a relatively different make system, they all have different goals in ports (Freebsd would want them quicker, NetBSD would want them more portable, etc) and a number of programs will have to have a lot of work done to run on some of the BSD's (Mozilla doesnt run on OBSD yet, applications that are linux-emulation dependant like MpegTV will run on FreeBSD but your chances are much less on the others).
The main problem is communication between developers. I doubt ANY of the BSD will make the effort to start this. The only way to do it is to have a group of people who are familiar with the ports systems of the respective bsd systems, BUT that doesnt hold any strong arogance towards a specific BSD. The project must be done independantly and not tied to a specific BSD. This would make a common ground for the BSD's to go to. Maybe even related to Freshports.org? I've only been there once... it seemed very useless to me since i do not run FreeBSD, but if they were to start working on an independant ports system, it would be nice.
And finally... Speaking of Mozilla in OpenBSD: I'm trying to help out with this as much as possible. Bug #49036, I think, is for the bug that causes the segmentation fault on startup for OBSD users. I submitted it, but i'm pretty much a newbie, so any comments on that would be great. Also bug #44301 is an attempt to get OpenBSD and NetBSD listed in the Operating Systems area of Bug Reports (have to use Other right now). Vote For This! Please people, the only way we will see a stable, working Mozilla for the BSD's is to help out with the project. It only takes 5-10 minutes on a dialup to update the source (after initially getting the repository) on a dialup. Building does take a while, but Come On! If anyone wants to discuss this or needs help starting, i'm usually on irc.mozilla.org as "semaphore" or you can email me.
I was really refering to the poster (tomwa) and not to specifically talking about the article. I was not trying to change the world of UNIX by my post, mearly suggesting to tomwa that he try openbsd if he is unsatisfied with the linux distribution that he was using.
You wouldnt need to reconfigure your kernel. I've actually never needed to recompile the kernel (though its easy to do) The documentation is always update and accurate. I had no problem setting up ppp. I think they include a sample ppp.conf now, so it may be even simpler.
All three applications are Win32, "Not that there is anything wrong with that".
But, i'm afraid i cant find the source. Is it included in the executable? (no windows systems to run on, so i cant find out myself) Or am I just missing it?
NLP would be just one step away from being able to talk to your computer to get work done in a natural way. Do you really want to *say* "arr emm space dash arr eff space slash" or "Delete all files from root filesystem." Commandline input with NLP will be a bit too wordy. I think the anti-mac article had the right idea of using some cross between commandline options and NLP like Zork and other text based adventure games. But, why not develope a good NLP and scale it down for users who want to interface on the commandline with the simplified NLP?
Of course, by the time we get to the point that this is usable by the average user... we should have some kind of gardian AI to know that the above is bad (double check when someone says it) and to learn from the user by watching the user work. And of course, heuristics to make sure that User X is the one actually saying things, and that the user is saying things to the computer.
Its far off in computing terms, but probably closer than you think in the real world time scale.
I vote for the latter. I've never considered Rome a great civilization for just those reasons. The "greatness" of a civilization is its intellectual, moral, cultural and material developement. Any civilization that allows the kind of carnage that went on in a ancient Rome, at the very least, lacks in moral and intellectual developement.
Finally, back to the point, a definition (from dictionary.com):
Civilized: Showing evidence of moral and intellectual advancement; humane, ethical, and reasonable.
Nowhere did i refer to civilization. Violence, at least in my opinion, is not civilized, albeit occasionally necessary.
Second, just because I don't show off my HotMail address here does not mean I don't have one. My HotMail address is pretty much just for IM and recieving spam. I think the original poster was refering to people who only use hotmail or people who use it as there primary email vs. people who use non-web based email as their primary email.
Thirdly, I don't like being insulted. If you said this right to my face, tomorrow would see you visiting your dentist to get false teeth. And the day after that you'd be in court paying for those teeth, court fees, and whatever else the lawyers could squeeze out of you.
And finally, the subject is an example of sarcasm. However, I doubt that you'd understand that. I say this because it seems you haven't really evolved from the tree apes. You were the one talking about inflicting physical violence... not very civilized.
Freshports is for FreeBSD people. A large number of ports available for FreeBSD but not in the ports tree for OpenBSD will compile and run fine. Since OpenBSD has a smaller number of contributors than freebsd there arent as many port maintainers.
KDE is in the current ports tree, and has been for a while. There are a number of KDE games and utilities available; what is not in the ports tree will probably compile without trouble. Gnome is not in the ports tree.
There are a number of people using OpenBSD not as a high-security servers, but as personal desktops. I've been using OpenBSD on my laptop quite fine for close to a year now. Getting my sound and PCMCIA to work was the easiest of any Unix i've used (in fact, i didnt have to do anything). I've got napster (knapster is now available for GUI people) and gnutella (gnut compiles fine, even though there is not a port yet and i havent had time to contribute it) and mpg123. Xmms is not available yet but it shouldnt be too long before it's a port. I made a Apache+PHP+Mysql MP3 player so i can access our MP3 server (running openbsd) easily, so for me XMMS isnt really needed. Xanim plays avi's with sound. Mpeg_play plays mpegs with out sound. The commercial Mpeg_TV may be able to play mpeg's with sound under linux emulation, i have not tried it. I've installed and ran WordPerfect (although it has long since been deleted, nothing beats TeX). I have not heard of Mozilla running, but netscape runs fairly well if you turn Java off.
Linux Emulation works well most of the time. The only bad thing about the emulation is that you get the performance and stability of RedHat on your BSD machine...
I sure hope so. When the Web degrades to that point, it will prompt competetor designs of something like the web to gain popularity by those who know whats going on. Maybe freenet, maybe something other than freenet (never been able to use it... good ole Java). And the cycle will repeat; eventually C-Net and Wired will have articles on it and will be given a web based interface (dejanews) and degrade like everything else. But for a short time it WILL be great.
I definitely agree with that. OpenBSD was the easiest install of any OS i've used. It doesnt do much handholding if something goes wrong, but for a competant person who knows how to search mailling lists or read FAQs in an emergency, the install is a blessing.
In addition, my PCMCIA network card had support on the standard boot disk (thats right, *one* boot disk.. none of this boot/root disk crap)... and my soundcard worked right out of the box which, to some extent scares me.
There is a major difference between beauty and Marketable Beauty. Most (some?) of us have a fairly good grasp on what makes certain women beautifull. But most of us probably do not know shit about what makes the looks of woman sell a magazine (seems to have something to do with blond hair dye and implants).
As an analogy: I'm a Schemer, i think scheme is a very elagant language that allow beautiful programs to be built. But there is a reason Microsoft and AOL are dominating the market and not the "Small is Better" scheme (and UNIX) philosphy. It has nothing to do with quality or elagance and everything to do with tricking the consumer into buying their shit.
I'll stick to my concept of beauty... you can have yours.
its not a question of tables, raging.com looks for lynx browsers and denies them access. I guess the w3m browser isnt popular enough to draw their attention to it... (not saying its bad or anything, i've never used it)
If i can program in a certain paradigm in a certain language, then that language supports that paradigm. Scheme is not a Pure OO language (neither is Java), but it facilitates programming in OO.
He didnt say ANYTHING about the number of smart people outnumbering the stupid people. He said "there are enough non-idiots to stop it eventually". I cant say it any more clearer than that.
The stupid may be in the majority, but the intelligent are in charge, to some extent.
Slashdot Mirror
Its not about Package Format (as in RPM or .deb), its about the collection of patches that the BSD people add to get non-portable software working on their systems. Currently each BSD maintains a seperate collection of those patches plus description's of the package, SHA1 sums, master file repositories, author, license, etc for their Ports (i.e. seperate Ports Trees). There is a lot of duplication between the ports tree's. Its not uncommon to find that a FreeBSD port works fine on OpenBSD (although it may not be in the ports tree).
Well, I think it should be just as simple (ok, nothing is ever as simple as it should be) as having $OpenBSD_Port = no. And when OpenBSD goes to ship, it filters out all the "$OpenBSD_Port=no" Ports.
And there will be the case that there are NetBSD Specific patches that FreeBSD doesnt want to accept, those would need to be #ifdef'd too. It would be a lot of work... but the more i think about it, the more i think it would be worth it...
I basically agree with the comments at Daemonnews. It is a really good idea. But there are a number of technical reasons: all three BSD's use a relatively different make system, they all have different goals in ports (Freebsd would want them quicker, NetBSD would want them more portable, etc) and a number of programs will have to have a lot of work done to run on some of the BSD's (Mozilla doesnt run on OBSD yet, applications that are linux-emulation dependant like MpegTV will run on FreeBSD but your chances are much less on the others).
The main problem is communication between developers. I doubt ANY of the BSD will make the effort to start this. The only way to do it is to have a group of people who are familiar with the ports systems of the respective bsd systems, BUT that doesnt hold any strong arogance towards a specific BSD. The project must be done independantly and not tied to a specific BSD. This would make a common ground for the BSD's to go to. Maybe even related to Freshports.org? I've only been there once... it seemed very useless to me since i do not run FreeBSD, but if they were to start working on an independant ports system, it would be nice.
And finally... Speaking of Mozilla in OpenBSD: I'm trying to help out with this as much as possible. Bug #49036, I think, is for the bug that causes the segmentation fault on startup for OBSD users. I submitted it, but i'm pretty much a newbie, so any comments on that would be great. Also bug #44301 is an attempt to get OpenBSD and NetBSD listed in the Operating Systems area of Bug Reports (have to use Other right now). Vote For This! Please people, the only way we will see a stable, working Mozilla for the BSD's is to help out with the project. It only takes 5-10 minutes on a dialup to update the source (after initially getting the repository) on a dialup. Building does take a while, but Come On! If anyone wants to discuss this or needs help starting, i'm usually on irc.mozilla.org as "semaphore" or you can email me.
I was really refering to the poster (tomwa) and not to specifically talking about the article. I was not trying to change the world of UNIX by my post, mearly suggesting to tomwa that he try openbsd if he is unsatisfied with the linux distribution that he was using.
You wouldnt need to reconfigure your kernel. I've actually never needed to recompile the kernel (though its easy to do) The documentation is always update and accurate. I had no problem setting up ppp. I think they include a sample ppp.conf now, so it may be even simpler.
All three applications are Win32, "Not that there is anything wrong with that".
But, i'm afraid i cant find the source. Is it included in the executable? (no windows systems to run on, so i cant find out myself) Or am I just missing it?
Eh, oh well...
NLP would be just one step away from being able to talk to your computer to get work done in a natural way. Do you really want to *say* "arr emm space dash arr eff space slash" or "Delete all files from root filesystem." Commandline input with NLP will be a bit too wordy. I think the anti-mac article had the right idea of using some cross between commandline options and NLP like Zork and other text based adventure games. But, why not develope a good NLP and scale it down for users who want to interface on the commandline with the simplified NLP?
Of course, by the time we get to the point that this is usable by the average user... we should have some kind of gardian AI to know that the above is bad (double check when someone says it) and to learn from the user by watching the user work. And of course, heuristics to make sure that User X is the one actually saying things, and that the user is saying things to the computer.
Its far off in computing terms, but probably closer than you think in the real world time scale.
I vote for the latter. I've never considered Rome a great civilization for just those reasons. The "greatness" of a civilization is its intellectual, moral, cultural and material developement. Any civilization that allows the kind of carnage that went on in a ancient Rome, at the very least, lacks in moral and intellectual developement.
Finally, back to the point, a definition (from dictionary.com):
Civilized: Showing evidence of moral and intellectual advancement; humane, ethical, and reasonable.
Nowhere did i refer to civilization. Violence, at least in my opinion, is not civilized, albeit occasionally necessary.
^Z
Not the AC, but i'll bite.
Second, just because I don't show off my HotMail address here does not mean I don't have one. My HotMail address is pretty much just for IM and recieving spam.
I think the original poster was refering to people who only use hotmail or people who use it as there primary email vs. people who use non-web based email as their primary email.
Thirdly, I don't like being insulted. If you said this right to my face, tomorrow would see you visiting your dentist to get false teeth.
And the day after that you'd be in court paying for those teeth, court fees, and whatever else the lawyers could squeeze out of you.
And finally, the subject is an example of sarcasm. However, I doubt that you'd understand that. I say this because it seems you haven't really evolved from the tree apes.
You were the one talking about inflicting physical violence... not very civilized.
^Z
Freshports is for FreeBSD people. A large number of ports available for FreeBSD but not in the ports tree for OpenBSD will compile and run fine. Since OpenBSD has a smaller number of contributors than freebsd there arent as many port maintainers.
^Z
KDE is in the current ports tree, and has been for a while. There are a number of KDE games and utilities available; what is not in the ports tree will probably compile without trouble. Gnome is not in the ports tree.
There are a number of people using OpenBSD not as a high-security servers, but as personal desktops. I've been using OpenBSD on my laptop quite fine for close to a year now. Getting my sound and PCMCIA to work was the easiest of any Unix i've used (in fact, i didnt have to do anything). I've got napster (knapster is now available for GUI people) and gnutella (gnut compiles fine, even though there is not a port yet and i havent had time to contribute it) and mpg123. Xmms is not available yet but it shouldnt be too long before it's a port. I made a Apache+PHP+Mysql MP3 player so i can access our MP3 server (running openbsd) easily, so for me XMMS isnt really needed. Xanim plays avi's with sound. Mpeg_play plays mpegs with out sound. The commercial Mpeg_TV may be able to play mpeg's with sound under linux emulation, i have not tried it. I've installed and ran WordPerfect (although it has long since been deleted, nothing beats TeX). I have not heard of Mozilla running, but netscape runs fairly well if you turn Java off.
Linux Emulation works well most of the time. The only bad thing about the emulation is that you get the performance and stability of RedHat on your BSD machine...
^Z
I sure hope so. When the Web degrades to that point, it will prompt competetor designs of something like the web to gain popularity by those who know whats going on. Maybe freenet, maybe something other than freenet (never been able to use it... good ole Java). And the cycle will repeat; eventually C-Net and Wired will have articles on it and will be given a web based interface (dejanews) and degrade like everything else. But for a short time it WILL be great.
^Z
I definitely agree with that. OpenBSD was the easiest install of any OS i've used. It doesnt do much handholding if something goes wrong, but for a competant person who knows how to search mailling lists or read FAQs in an emergency, the install is a blessing.
In addition, my PCMCIA network card had support on the standard boot disk (thats right, *one* boot disk.. none of this boot/root disk crap)... and my soundcard worked right out of the box which, to some extent scares me.
^Z
There is a major difference between beauty and Marketable Beauty. Most (some?) of us have a fairly good grasp on what makes certain women beautifull. But most of us probably do not know shit about what makes the looks of woman sell a magazine (seems to have something to do with blond hair dye and implants).
As an analogy: I'm a Schemer, i think scheme is a very elagant language that allow beautiful programs to be built. But there is a reason Microsoft and AOL are dominating the market and not the "Small is Better" scheme (and UNIX) philosphy. It has nothing to do with quality or elagance and everything to do with tricking the consumer into buying their shit.
I'll stick to my concept of beauty... you can have yours.
^Z
Doesnt Google Cache a lot of websites? Are there Copywrite problems in that case?
^Z
if you take the ~30seconds it takes to rtfm, you'll see how to get around raging.com's bullshit.
And as far as i know, any other text editor will work fine.
^Z
its not a question of tables, raging.com looks for lynx browsers and denies them access. I guess the w3m browser isnt popular enough to draw their attention to it... (not saying its bad or anything, i've never used it)
^Z
try lynx -useragent=Netscape www.raging.com
You can replace Netscape with what you want (maybe a little message demanding the stop their lynx hatred).
^Z
If i can program in a certain paradigm in a certain language, then that language supports that paradigm. Scheme is not a Pure OO language (neither is Java), but it facilitates programming in OO.
^Z
You want objects? Here is a simple point object (from an inexperienced (and sleepy) schemer):
(define point (lambda (init)
(let ((contents init))
(lambda msg
(case (car msg)
((show) contents)
((distance)
(sqrt (+ (expt (- (car contents) (caadr msg)) 2)
(expt (- (cdr contents) (cdadr msg)) 2))))
((set) (set! contents (cadr msg)))))))))
(define origin (point '(0 . 0)))
(define end (point '(2 . 0)))
(display (origin 'distance (end))) (newline)
(end 'set '(3 . 5))
(display (origin 'distance (end))) (newline)
Of course, there are a number of packages available to do OO in scheme in a manner much better than the above...
^Z
(display "hello world\n")
He didnt say ANYTHING about the number of smart people outnumbering the stupid people. He said "there are enough non-idiots to stop it eventually". I cant say it any more clearer than that.
The stupid may be in the majority, but the intelligent are in charge, to some extent.
^Z
I'd Rather Use ICBMs.
^Z
Brings a whole new meaning
to Van Eck Phreaking.
Thank you.
^Z
By reading this post you agree to give me $10,000.
We aren't even sure the GPL as it is will hold up in court. Adding more bullshit to it certainly will not help.
^Z