I have smoothly moved many newbies from MSIE+Outlook to Mozilla and they are very happy with it (safter, no popups, etc.). So why the change? Installs and upgrades are so easy I point them to Mozilla.org and they do it themselves. How easy will it be to migrate them to two separate apps (and keep their bookmarks, emails, address book, etc.)
Now... what isn't there that you just absolutely need to run that you can't otherwise?
I too am a developer, and let me give you my list of applications that don't work without administrator priveledges. I will grant you that I can live without them, but I consider that irrelevant. To generalize this list, the problem exists on any application that was made prior to 2000, since most applications made at that time assumed Windows '9x instead of NT, where admin priveledges did not even exists.
B^2logic (an old circuit simulator made for Win 3.x)
A freeware Spanish-English dictionary
SecureCRT (An SSH application)
Trillian (IM clone)
Every game I own (Oni, B&W, Q3A, Tron 2.0, SimCity, Mame, Chessmaster...)
Winamp 3 (Winamp 2 is better anyway)
Lego mindstorms (cheesy SDK for legos)
All of the above applications suffer the same problem: The try to write application settings to their install directory (usually C:\Program Files). Games are the worst offenders, and some of these games came out in the past 3 months. Tron 2.0 behaves horribly if you try to install or run it without proper priveledges.
I just noticed that you have Trillian and Winamp in your list interesting...
Trillian writes most of the user profile data into the Application Settings folder, just as it should. However, it also writes a list of users into the C:\Program Files\Trillian\users directory. If you run it without admin rights, it will create the files in the user's application settings folder, but it won't write the user name into the Trillian users directory, so it won't find the settings next time you run the app. I've discussed this with the developers on the discussion groups, and they call it a bug in XP! None of them runs XP without admin priveledges to even notice it.
Winamp 3 works 99.999% corectly, so maybe I am picky. The only issue is that it remembers the last playlist, and it writes this into the global registry settings, rather than the user's registry settings. So when I run winamp, I get the last playlist of the administrator. I plan to switch back to Winamp2 anyhow, but I assume it is the same way.
On to other issues...
You are right about rm -rf, but the point is outside the scope of the discussion. We are talking about end-users, and end-users don't do that. They use the GUI.
Simple by shift right-clicking
True, but also outside of the scope. Shift right-click assumes that 1)You know when to do it, and 2) That you can do it. It doesn't apply to control panel, or the display settings, or to autorun installs. These are the times that it matters. You are forgetting the limitations of the end user. The OS should prompt you when you need it, not assume that you know when you need it and what obscure click must be done.
FUD is when someone cites bullshit data, like how 95% of all Russians are actually gay...
Agreed. The original poster did not do this. No one has debated any of the original posters facts. The only fact the persion mentioned is that Apple already prompts for a password in their OS, which I assume is true since no one stated otherwise. Noone should be calling FUD.
On another note of FUD: FUD is "Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt" and it is different than simply bogus facts. FUD is a debating tactic that involves attacking the credibility of their opponent. It confuses the audience so that they don't know who is telling the truth, so they will avoid thinking about the subject intelligently. Nowhere, in any part of this thread, have I seen anyone try to do this. Debate! Argue! Discuss! Roar like a lion! But don't call FUD unless someone else starts making personal attacks. Usually, it is safe to ignore them anyway because they are quickly moderated down to 0 (yay for moderation!).
Is this company alleging that any application that has pluggable pieces must prompt before executing them? That would affect event major application on the market! Browsers, office suites, testing software, databases, installers, media apps, games, etc. Many critical applications would completely break if they had to prompt the user.
Nuclear Operator 2.73 Plutonium inserted successfully. Would you like to run the radiation level check? [Yes] [No]
"Oops! Hey Boss - I accidentally clicked *-boom-*..."
You are partially correct, and partially mistaken. Let me clarify:
Have you even tried running Windows post-NT without administrator privilegs...?
You are correct that it is very difficult to run Windows NT, 2k, or XP without administrator privileges. It is a pain in the butt (I do it, and 99% of apps assume they have admin priveledges). Microsoft knows consumers don't want to be sysadmins.
...consumer feedback from years of user research...because this is EXACTLY what people want...
You are incorrect when you that people want to run with admin priveledges all the time. What people want is security without hassle. Apple does far better market research in this area, and Apple systems do prompt for an admin password. So does linux, and the Java VM.
The problem here is that someone looks at a problem statement like "Running Windows without admin priveledges is difficult." and concludes "Users should run with admin priveledges." The correct solution is the find the cause of the problem, and fix it. In this case the real problem is "Windows does not prompt for a password when admin priveledges are required." Macintosh, Java VM, and many Linux distros have solved this problem in a way that is user friendly.
Your post was just endless FUD.
You may disagree with the post, and with this one as well. But none of this is FUD. Can we stop applying that term to anyone we disagree with?
His approach isn't very *nix-ish, it is very Windows-ish. It assumes you have a GUI. It relies on a large complex framework of interfaces. It assumes you have Python scripting. This may work very well for many desktop distros, but it can't become some great unifying thing like he wants, since he chose dependencies that are not the least common denominator. I believe that his goals can all be achieved with minor changes to the existing init system, rather than a megalithic rewrite.
This approach sounds like he is trying to push some specific technologies he is interested in, and so he decided a new init system that uses them would be a nice PR way to push them.
Are we now all hoping that EULAs are enforceable? Nonono! This is the exact opposite standpoint the Slashdot public claims to hold. Don't make a 180 on the principle just because it could serve you well here. Kazaa better lose this case or all our souls are belong to them after the next click-through license you see.
You are right, this decision must apply unilaterally.
1) We need to make sure that our argument against Verisign isn't the CONTENT of the Verisign page - if so, they will just remove the ads or something. The problem here is that it breaks the DNS specification (see the IAB response for why).
2) What happens when all the spammers start using.museum so that their DNS always resolves and the spam gets through?
Here in Baltimore: 1) The cameras aren't moveable (AFAIK). 2) The cameras can only take snapshots, not video. 3) The cameras only take snapshots when they detect a red light, and a car crossing into the intersection.
I'm not trying to advocate traffic cameras, but at least someone spent some time designing these appropriately.
Why doesn't Linux have a systematic way to establish dependencies for each service? I'm a Windoze user (yes, scoff at me if you will) and I see this as a case where Windows is superior. Every service can enumerate its dependencies, and the OS starts the dependencies in the proper order. Being a Linux newbie, I assumed it did the same.
1) Is there any plan to change this? 2) I see comments indicating that Apple did this successfully. If so, can we learn from their implementation and do something similar? 3) What do BSD, and that various Unices do? Do they all have this limitation?
Essentially, they state that this change violates the RFC for DNS for several reasons. They are creating an IETF working group to recommended practices for implementing DNS, above and beyond what the RFC requires. Unfortunately, there is no mention of any action, or even censure.
This is horrible for web spiders and search engines. Every link to a dead domain name will now result in a series of pages that need to be indexed. And there will be thousands (millions?) of web sites that all offer Verisign name registrations -- all identical. This will surely affect their page rankings! Spiders will have to be hard-coded to ignore certain IP addresses or DNS names.
I hope they get sued by every mail filter vendor, registrar, and search engine that they just damaged with this. And the government needs to review the powers they are granting to name-server providers.
Re:I've been coding most of...
on
Does C# Measure Up?
·
· Score: 5, Informative
Linkers already do this. At this point, it is ubiquitous functionality. The linker has a list of functions that are referenced, and functions that are not referenced. Functions and libraries not referenced are discarded. I know for MSVC, this is done by using/opt:ref which is part of the default RELEASE builds. This all works for OO code like C++ as well since the methods boils down to functions as far as the linker is concerned.
There are some special cases: 1) You mentioned strcat() which can be inlined by many compilers. In this case, you trade speed for code bloat - the library isn't really used at all here. In MSVC this is an "intrinsic" function.
2) Dynamic libraries may be treated differently. It is more difficult to try to partially load them. I'm not sure how Linux handles this. Windows allows for a DLL to contain multiple code and data segments, which can be loaded individually if needed.
Why is $12 too expensive? People pay $15-25 for DVD movies, $7-$8 just to see them once in a theatre, $50+ to go to a concert... why is $12 too expensive for the ability to listen at home whenever you wish? I don't get it. I grant you, that anything is more expensive than free, but I don't understand why people are complaining about price. This is what they cost years ago for cassettes (if you include inflation, etc), and that was considered fair. What has changed that it isn't fair any more? What IS a fair price?
I love that argument. It is so true of my current situation with Linux. But I still disagree: Why? Because having one single desktop will help ME. I like my apps looking and acting the same. I like not having to remember that drag-and-drop works in one app and not another, and that one app has a completely different cut-and-paste than another, and help system, and button behaviors.
So I agree with your basic point: Forget the newbie, what do we, as Linux users, want? I want a stable, standardized desktop!
This guy is the animation advocate. His arguments are less than impressive:
...computer processing...takes out the creative flair that brings a character to life, thus making characters maybe more lifelike but somewhat lacking in life.
Well, that clarifies it. More lifelike, but lacking in life.
Obviously, animating traditionally takes longer than motion capture but you do have to spend a lot of time processing the data...So in a lot of cases a skilled animator...will achieve the same if not better results in not much more time than if the moves were motion captured. Motion capture is probably quicker....
So it takes longer, but in some cases it maybe traditionally isn't longer, but it's probably not quicker. Other great quotes:
Motion capture cannot always capture the sheer fluidity that many athletes possess and as a result this supposed realism can sometimes undermine all the motion capture artists' hard work.
Actually, that is the entire point of motion capture: It captues the fluidity of the actor exactly.
It seems like it would be in Apple's best interest to donate to, or fork, or assist the OpenOffice project. The payoff should be excellent since the product is already mature, and they've had good luck with open-source in the recent past (OS X). Why not? Is it politics?
This quote is great. It shoes a very foolish and arrogant mindset that has taken over media-based and subscription-based industries.
"If someone buys a DVD and watches it on the Nintendo GameCube, we wouldn't receive any revenue from that. We'd rather have them play our games."
They aren't interested in quality, value-added products anymore. They are interested only in making their customers pay more money in the future. Notice that manufactures of players for DVD, VHS, CD, vinyl record, audio-tape, floppy-disks, etc. don't make money (directly) from sales of media -- but they still find a way to make money on the hardware to read them. Duh! Waaay long ago, there was a day where the manufacturer sold the playback device for a profit, rather than as a way to lock people into something.
This further illustrates that there is no love for the consumer. Just because the consumer wants it, doesn't mean that it is worth doing. They don't even bother to ask if the consumer will enjoy the product more, leading to good sales. It doesn't even occur to them. This demonstrates that the consumer votes with their dollars according to one set of criteria, but the manufacturers think the consumer is buying based on another.
I would gladly volunteer. Unfortunately, I am not even close to qualified. However, if/when I get a degree in physics/engineering, I will do that. Is there a reason that you assumed I would not? Or are you demonstrating the very bias against sacrifice that I was trying to point out? If you were qualified, would you not volunteer?
Check this out: SCO insider trading. Essentially, Senior Vice President Reginald Broughton has made half a million dollars over the last 2 weeks by selling SCO stock. Senior Vice President Michael Wilson has done the same. Now why would they do this with SCOs prospects for lucrative Linux licensing deals just around the corner?
The SEC will probably be looking into SCO very soon. Or what's left of them. They will be the next Enron.
Slashdot Mirror
Is it just to help the load times?
I have smoothly moved many newbies from MSIE+Outlook to Mozilla and they are very happy with it (safter, no popups, etc.). So why the change? Installs and upgrades are so easy I point them to Mozilla.org and they do it themselves. How easy will it be to migrate them to two separate apps (and keep their bookmarks, emails, address book, etc.)
Does anyone else have a problem with the site certificate? It says it is issued by verisign, but Mozilla 1.4 says it does not know the issuer.
This topic is old, but I like the discussion.
I too am a developer, and let me give you my list of applications that don't work without administrator priveledges. I will grant you that I can live without them, but I consider that irrelevant. To generalize this list, the problem exists on any application that was made prior to 2000, since most applications made at that time assumed Windows '9x instead of NT, where admin priveledges did not even exists.
All of the above applications suffer the same problem: The try to write application settings to their install directory (usually C:\Program Files). Games are the worst offenders, and some of these games came out in the past 3 months. Tron 2.0 behaves horribly if you try to install or run it without proper priveledges.
I just noticed that you have Trillian and Winamp in your list interesting...
Trillian writes most of the user profile data into the Application Settings folder, just as it should. However, it also writes a list of users into the C:\Program Files\Trillian\users directory. If you run it without admin rights, it will create the files in the user's application settings folder, but it won't write the user name into the Trillian users directory, so it won't find the settings next time you run the app. I've discussed this with the developers on the discussion groups, and they call it a bug in XP! None of them runs XP without admin priveledges to even notice it.
Winamp 3 works 99.999% corectly, so maybe I am picky. The only issue is that it remembers the last playlist, and it writes this into the global registry settings, rather than the user's registry settings. So when I run winamp, I get the last playlist of the administrator. I plan to switch back to Winamp2 anyhow, but I assume it is the same way.
On to other issues...
You are right about rm -rf, but the point is outside the scope of the discussion. We are talking about end-users, and end-users don't do that. They use the GUI.
True, but also outside of the scope. Shift right-click assumes that 1)You know when to do it, and 2) That you can do it. It doesn't apply to control panel, or the display settings, or to autorun installs. These are the times that it matters. You are forgetting the limitations of the end user. The OS should prompt you when you need it, not assume that you know when you need it and what obscure click must be done.
Agreed. The original poster did not do this. No one has debated any of the original posters facts. The only fact the persion mentioned is that Apple already prompts for a password in their OS, which I assume is true since no one stated otherwise. Noone should be calling FUD.
On another note of FUD: FUD is "Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt" and it is different than simply bogus facts. FUD is a debating tactic that involves attacking the credibility of their opponent. It confuses the audience so that they don't know who is telling the truth, so they will avoid thinking about the subject intelligently. Nowhere, in any part of this thread, have I seen anyone try to do this. Debate! Argue! Discuss! Roar like a lion! But don't call FUD unless someone else starts making personal attacks. Usually, it is safe to ignore them anyway because they are quickly moderated down to 0 (yay for moderation!).
Is this company alleging that any application that has pluggable pieces must prompt before executing them? That would affect event major application on the market! Browsers, office suites, testing software, databases, installers, media apps, games, etc. Many critical applications would completely break if they had to prompt the user.
Nuclear Operator 2.73
Plutonium inserted successfully.
Would you like to run the radiation level check?
[Yes] [No]
"Oops! Hey Boss - I accidentally clicked *-boom-*..."
You are partially correct, and partially mistaken. Let me clarify:
You are correct that it is very difficult to run Windows NT, 2k, or XP without administrator privileges. It is a pain in the butt (I do it, and 99% of apps assume they have admin priveledges). Microsoft knows consumers don't want to be sysadmins.
You are incorrect when you that people want to run with admin priveledges all the time. What people want is security without hassle. Apple does far better market research in this area, and Apple systems do prompt for an admin password. So does linux, and the Java VM.
The problem here is that someone looks at a problem statement like "Running Windows without admin priveledges is difficult." and concludes "Users should run with admin priveledges." The correct solution is the find the cause of the problem, and fix it. In this case the real problem is "Windows does not prompt for a password when admin priveledges are required." Macintosh, Java VM, and many Linux distros have solved this problem in a way that is user friendly.
You may disagree with the post, and with this one as well. But none of this is FUD. Can we stop applying that term to anyone we disagree with?
Does anyone offer a webmail services that will connect to your POP3 account?
His approach isn't very *nix-ish, it is very Windows-ish. It assumes you have a GUI. It relies on a large complex framework of interfaces. It assumes you have Python scripting. This may work very well for many desktop distros, but it can't become some great unifying thing like he wants, since he chose dependencies that are not the least common denominator. I believe that his goals can all be achieved with minor changes to the existing init system, rather than a megalithic rewrite.
This approach sounds like he is trying to push some specific technologies he is interested in, and so he decided a new init system that uses them would be a nice PR way to push them.
Are we now all hoping that EULAs are enforceable? Nonono! This is the exact opposite standpoint the Slashdot public claims to hold. Don't make a 180 on the principle just because it could serve you well here. Kazaa better lose this case or all our souls are belong to them after the next click-through license you see.
You are right, this decision must apply unilaterally.
.museum so that their DNS always resolves and the spam gets through?
1) We need to make sure that our argument against Verisign isn't the CONTENT of the Verisign page - if so, they will just remove the ads or something. The problem here is that it breaks the DNS specification (see the IAB response for why).
2) What happens when all the spammers start using
Here in Baltimore:
1) The cameras aren't moveable (AFAIK).
2) The cameras can only take snapshots, not video.
3) The cameras only take snapshots when they detect a red light, and a car crossing into the intersection.
I'm not trying to advocate traffic cameras, but at least someone spent some time designing these appropriately.
Why doesn't Linux have a systematic way to establish dependencies for each service? I'm a Windoze user (yes, scoff at me if you will) and I see this as a case where Windows is superior. Every service can enumerate its dependencies, and the OS starts the dependencies in the proper order. Being a Linux newbie, I assumed it did the same.
1) Is there any plan to change this?
2) I see comments indicating that Apple did this successfully. If so, can we learn from their implementation and do something similar?
3) What do BSD, and that various Unices do? Do they all have this limitation?
Official response is here
Essentially, they state that this change violates the RFC for DNS for several reasons. They are creating an IETF working group to recommended practices for implementing DNS, above and beyond what the RFC requires. Unfortunately, there is no mention of any action, or even censure.
Researchers are debating over the name for this new metal. Currently, the top two contenders are "Mithril" and "Adamantium" :-)
This is horrible for web spiders and search engines. Every link to a dead domain name will now result in a series of pages that need to be indexed. And there will be thousands (millions?) of web sites that all offer Verisign name registrations -- all identical. This will surely affect their page rankings! Spiders will have to be hard-coded to ignore certain IP addresses or DNS names.
I hope they get sued by every mail filter vendor, registrar, and search engine that they just damaged with this. And the government needs to review the powers they are granting to name-server providers.
Linkers already do this. At this point, it is ubiquitous functionality. The linker has a list of functions that are referenced, and functions that are not referenced. Functions and libraries not referenced are discarded. I know for MSVC, this is done by using /opt:ref which is part of the default RELEASE builds. This all works for OO code like C++ as well since the methods boils down to functions as far as the linker is concerned.
There are some special cases:
1) You mentioned strcat() which can be inlined by many compilers. In this case, you trade speed for code bloat - the library isn't really used at all here. In MSVC this is an "intrinsic" function.
2) Dynamic libraries may be treated differently. It is more difficult to try to partially load them. I'm not sure how Linux handles this. Windows allows for a DLL to contain multiple code and data segments, which can be loaded individually if needed.
There have been lots of articles leading up to this, and most of them are from Sony.
My only question is "Why didn't they create a standalone LCD panel first?"
Why is $12 too expensive? People pay $15-25 for DVD movies, $7-$8 just to see them once in a theatre, $50+ to go to a concert... why is $12 too expensive for the ability to listen at home whenever you wish? I don't get it. I grant you, that anything is more expensive than free, but I don't understand why people are complaining about price. This is what they cost years ago for cassettes (if you include inflation, etc), and that was considered fair. What has changed that it isn't fair any more? What IS a fair price?
I love that argument. It is so true of my current situation with Linux. But I still disagree: Why? Because having one single desktop will help ME. I like my apps looking and acting the same. I like not having to remember that drag-and-drop works in one app and not another, and that one app has a completely different cut-and-paste than another, and help system, and button behaviors.
So I agree with your basic point: Forget the newbie, what do we, as Linux users, want? I want a stable, standardized desktop!
Well, that clarifies it. More lifelike, but lacking in life.
So it takes longer, but in some cases it maybe traditionally isn't longer, but it's probably not quicker. Other great quotes:
Actually, that is the entire point of motion capture: It captues the fluidity of the actor exactly.
CD-RWs are extremely photosensitive.
It seems like it would be in Apple's best interest to donate to, or fork, or assist the OpenOffice project. The payoff should be excellent since the product is already mature, and they've had good luck with open-source in the recent past (OS X). Why not? Is it politics?
How?
This quote is great. It shoes a very foolish and arrogant mindset that has taken over media-based and subscription-based industries.
They aren't interested in quality, value-added products anymore. They are interested only in making their customers pay more money in the future. Notice that manufactures of players for DVD, VHS, CD, vinyl record, audio-tape, floppy-disks, etc. don't make money (directly) from sales of media -- but they still find a way to make money on the hardware to read them. Duh! Waaay long ago, there was a day where the manufacturer sold the playback device for a profit, rather than as a way to lock people into something.
This further illustrates that there is no love for the consumer. Just because the consumer wants it, doesn't mean that it is worth doing. They don't even bother to ask if the consumer will enjoy the product more, leading to good sales. It doesn't even occur to them. This demonstrates that the consumer votes with their dollars according to one set of criteria, but the manufacturers think the consumer is buying based on another.
I would gladly volunteer. Unfortunately, I am not even close to qualified. However, if/when I get a degree in physics/engineering, I will do that. Is there a reason that you assumed I would not? Or are you demonstrating the very bias against sacrifice that I was trying to point out? If you were qualified, would you not volunteer?
Check this out: SCO insider trading. Essentially, Senior Vice President Reginald Broughton has made half a million dollars over the last 2 weeks by selling SCO stock. Senior Vice President Michael Wilson has done the same. Now why would they do this with SCOs prospects for lucrative Linux licensing deals just around the corner?
The SEC will probably be looking into SCO very soon. Or what's left of them. They will be the next Enron.