Ah I see, didn't read it that way. With the "certain features you can only use if you install software through their market" you probably mean Xcode, which is free but you still have to register, agreed.
That's what we go to our churches for, i.e. Apple Stores. Those customers who go to a T-Mobile store for device support probably don't know whether they have iOS or Android running on their phones and thus are totally unworthy of the i-sheep(TM) badge.;)
I think those days are mostly counted, the current MBP has USB 3, HDMI, SDXC card and Thunderbolt connectors, of which you may count the Thunderbolt one as proprietary, but all its rights belong to Intel, not Apple.
And as "Internal Modem" has mentioned, you of course can install on a Mac whatever you want. The Mac App Store is not really good anyway.
It's astounding how many use Goodreader or iAnnotate on iPad when there is an absolutely fantastic paper management app available in the form of "Papers", made by Mekentosj. It has a Desktop (Mac + PC) counterpart so you can sync, it has all the major search engines built in, supports your university's proxy, has annotation features and what not. I love the thing!
(I am not affiliated with that company in any way)
I would also love a digital marker white board in conference rooms that I didn't have to erase, and could email as a screenshot when we're done. Right now, we take a picture of the whiteboard with our phones!
I admire Linus for daring to speak his mind, in the language he does speak his mind, as a person of public interest (or how you call it). More people should do that, it's honest and you quickly learn where you stand, not only after interpreting the words this or that way and weighing the options.
No, I don't know what you meant. "*nix" doesn't have packages.
I meant cross-platform packages, just like SciPy or redland or maybe even Django, as opposed to OS X-native (or even Windows) stuff.
You seem to think of tar files of sources as "packages" and of pulling them down and installing them as "package management".
Not quite.
In any case, the SciPy install instructions using brew I referred to in my other post show that package management on OS X is still a complete trainwreck.
Just saw that, you posted it after my last comment. Granted, SciPy is not (yet?) available as a brew package. But the post you refer to installs quite a bunch of other things and sets up the environment, SciPy alone is two commands. Agreed, this is easier on Ubuntu.
Why you keep condemning HomeBrew without knowing how it works is beyond me though.
Your problem is that you don't even know what packages or dependency management are (otherwise you wouldn't talk about such nonsense as "*nix packages").
I think you know what I meant, but ok, since you don't bother explaining what exactly the problem seems to be we should leave it at that.
But that's the wrong question to ask. The right question to ask is how much money you need to pay to get the job done. If Apple forces you to buy premium features you don't actually need, you are paying too much.
Which kinds of premium features I don't actually need do you mean?
For professional users, it's return on investment that matters, not what makes you feel good. And Ikea desks are a good value and work very well. Many businesses and professionals use them. Many of them also look pretty good.
Good thing I'm an independent researcher then, I care very much whether my job makes me feel good or I'm just working for ROI. I'm sure an Ikea desk works very well, all it needs to do is prevent your stuff from falling to the floor. I still prefer the feel of the walnut wood of my desk to the plastified surface of the average desk out there. Yes, it cost me a grand. I see the thing 12 hours a day, I want something that I like, not what has the best ROI.
Brew doesn't seem to have much in the way of integration testing or dependency tracking. In addition, you are up to four package managers (native plus MacPorts, Homebrew, and Fink) all doing their thing on your system, installing multiple versions, and none of them actually doing things quite right. That's not easy, it's a bloody mess. That's the main reason I eventually gave up on OS X.
That's the problem talking about stuff you don't actually use. I ditched Fink and MacPorts for Brew, so it's one manager. Brew installs into its own place but symlinks it all into/usr/local (by default, configurable) and respects all the "native" stuff. Brew does manage all dependencies of its packages, even different versions. It also executes the tests if the package manager added them. It's about as clean as it gets for the inherently messy *nix packages IMHO.
I don't think OS X makes "much sense" for any professional user: it's still overpriced and limiting, there is little hardware available that runs it, and even with MacPorts and Fink, it's a pain to maintain.
This is a very subjective area, but "overpriced" depends very much. The price of the OS is negligible (20$) and yes, you can get a cheaper machine than an iMac with about the same specs, but ultrabooks comparable to the MacBook Air only now start to roll out at the same or even lower prices. The Retina MBP currently has no comparable counterpart and is expensive, but honestly, if all you do is stare at a machine as your job you better pick a machine that pleases you as much as possible (...). For me it's not just a bag of components, it's my daily companion, I give a damn how douchey this sounds. It's for the same reason that I haven't bought my desk at Ikea - I sit at the damn thing most of my day, I better feel good when touching the wood.
I don't understand what you mean by "limiting".
And "a pain to maintain", I don't feel this way at all, but again, this probably depends on which modules you need. In virtually all cases I can use the Ubuntu install instructions and substitute "brew" for "apt-get" and be done.
Nicely defended. There is the Apple Care program which I have seen work out for several people at my department, but ok, I can see how this could be improved. Still, the "[Apple isn't] interested in meeting anyone's standards but their own" is a generalization that's way over the top.
Even within CS departments, you see an awful lot of Apple customers these days...
True, but they mostly use OS X like an iPad: to run consumer apps and as a thin client. Very few computer scientists or engineers actually develop for OS X.
You are right in that few native OS X apps are being developed, but the amount of webapps and open-source scripts and high-performance tools being developed on OS X is huge - at least at the departments that I interact with and work (biomedical). Those tools compile just fine on Linux and OS X, and with Fink, MacPorts and Homebrew there are three *nix package managers available, with A LOT of Linux packages available.
The choice to use OS X is currently a choice that makes much sense, from a very pragmatic viewpoint. OS X may be replaced by other OS'es as you say, but it's not like this is going to happen overnight.
Note the absense of Apple in business and government. They aren't interested in meeting anyone's standards but their own.
You mean standards like DOC or PPT? And Exchange, almost forgot that standard. Is there some other standard people use when working for businesses and governments?
I simply explain that Apple is Anti-Free market and anti-consumer-choice.
While I do not want to defend Apple's latest tactics (I think we all agree on those), it's a little harsh to say that "Apple is anti-free market" when Apple gave us the type of phones that we have today. Yes, maybe some other company would have done it by now, but it was still Apple starting it, and it was them who fucked with the carriers to get a decent phone out.
Just saying this battle is fought overly emotional these days.
You probably also put your money in a bank that invests in arms, saying: hey I don't care, this bank gives me the highest interest.
I don't. But I like how you compare creating and distributing arms with a lawsuit over a frickin telephone.
If you are a computing professional you should not buy Apple. Apple is the troll of our field.
I am. I do.
You may disagree on the last point, but if you don't then please stop using that "but it's the only thing that works" argument, because it is simply flawed, there are plenty of alternatives.
I never said it's the only thing that works, I said I use it because it works very well for me. I don't agree with Apple's tactics as obviously nobody here does, but just because Apple is being mean to Samsung (that's about the scope of it) I'm not going to switch to more "open" software just for the sake of it.
I've been following this on Groklaw for a while, and it's obvious yet again how badly the US patent system is broken when Apple can patent a rectangle with rounded corners and succeed in banning devices of the same shape, and yet refuse to licence the basic technology that is needed for the phone to actually behave like a phone and make calls.
You may be glad to hear that the "rounded rectangle" patent, design patent 504,889, was actually NOT found to be infringed, meaning Apple can NOT patent a rectangle with rounded corners.
What you just described - making a new product by slightly altering an existing one - happens in the food world all the time with no legal issues at all.
Exactly. Take Cocoa Cola and Pepsi for example. They also... oh wait. Nevermind.
This. Almost tragic that I had to scroll down all this way to get such a comment.
I need to get my stuff done. I'm probably not going to do it with 700$ software, but if 30$ software gives me pleasure using it I give a damn about it being open or free. And the ecosystem of great apps is by far bigger on OS X and iOS than on other platforms, simple as that.
Slashdot Mirror
...but when ethically Microsoft is probably one of the best among the tech giants...something is wrong.
Exactly my thoughts.
Ah I see, didn't read it that way. With the "certain features you can only use if you install software through their market" you probably mean Xcode, which is free but you still have to register, agreed.
That's what we go to our churches for, i.e. Apple Stores. Those customers who go to a T-Mobile store for device support probably don't know whether they have iOS or Android running on their phones and thus are totally unworthy of the i-sheep(TM) badge. ;)
...stop with the proprietory connectors
I think those days are mostly counted, the current MBP has USB 3, HDMI, SDXC card and Thunderbolt connectors, of which you may count the Thunderbolt one as proprietary, but all its rights belong to Intel, not Apple. And as "Internal Modem" has mentioned, you of course can install on a Mac whatever you want. The Mac App Store is not really good anyway.
That's not a photo of a box, it's on the back of the respective iMac. ;)
I agree that the sync is painful, but it's still better than not having sync (esp. tags and the "read" status) and having to manage papers in folders.
It's astounding how many use Goodreader or iAnnotate on iPad when there is an absolutely fantastic paper management app available in the form of "Papers", made by Mekentosj. It has a Desktop (Mac + PC) counterpart so you can sync, it has all the major search engines built in, supports your university's proxy, has annotation features and what not. I love the thing! (I am not affiliated with that company in any way)
I would also love a digital marker white board in conference rooms that I didn't have to erase, and could email as a screenshot when we're done. Right now, we take a picture of the whiteboard with our phones!
Here you go: http://smarttech.com/Solutions/Visual+collaboration+solutions/Products/Appliance-based+whiteboards+and+displays
Of course! Why couldn't I see that myself! D'oh!
Most awesome comment of the day.
I admire Linus for daring to speak his mind, in the language he does speak his mind, as a person of public interest (or how you call it). More people should do that, it's honest and you quickly learn where you stand, not only after interpreting the words this or that way and weighing the options.
No, I don't know what you meant. "*nix" doesn't have packages.
I meant cross-platform packages, just like SciPy or redland or maybe even Django, as opposed to OS X-native (or even Windows) stuff.
You seem to think of tar files of sources as "packages" and of pulling them down and installing them as "package management".
Not quite.
In any case, the SciPy install instructions using brew I referred to in my other post show that package management on OS X is still a complete trainwreck.
Just saw that, you posted it after my last comment. Granted, SciPy is not (yet?) available as a brew package. But the post you refer to installs quite a bunch of other things and sets up the environment, SciPy alone is two commands. Agreed, this is easier on Ubuntu.
Why you keep condemning HomeBrew without knowing how it works is beyond me though.
Your problem is that you don't even know what packages or dependency management are (otherwise you wouldn't talk about such nonsense as "*nix packages").
I think you know what I meant, but ok, since you don't bother explaining what exactly the problem seems to be we should leave it at that.
But that's the wrong question to ask. The right question to ask is how much money you need to pay to get the job done. If Apple forces you to buy premium features you don't actually need, you are paying too much.
Which kinds of premium features I don't actually need do you mean?
For professional users, it's return on investment that matters, not what makes you feel good. And Ikea desks are a good value and work very well. Many businesses and professionals use them. Many of them also look pretty good.
Good thing I'm an independent researcher then, I care very much whether my job makes me feel good or I'm just working for ROI. I'm sure an Ikea desk works very well, all it needs to do is prevent your stuff from falling to the floor. I still prefer the feel of the walnut wood of my desk to the plastified surface of the average desk out there. Yes, it cost me a grand. I see the thing 12 hours a day, I want something that I like, not what has the best ROI.
Brew doesn't seem to have much in the way of integration testing or dependency tracking. In addition, you are up to four package managers (native plus MacPorts, Homebrew, and Fink) all doing their thing on your system, installing multiple versions, and none of them actually doing things quite right. That's not easy, it's a bloody mess. That's the main reason I eventually gave up on OS X.
That's the problem talking about stuff you don't actually use. I ditched Fink and MacPorts for Brew, so it's one manager. Brew installs into its own place but symlinks it all into /usr/local (by default, configurable) and respects all the "native" stuff. Brew does manage all dependencies of its packages, even different versions. It also executes the tests if the package manager added them. It's about as clean as it gets for the inherently messy *nix packages IMHO.
I don't think OS X makes "much sense" for any professional user: it's still overpriced and limiting, there is little hardware available that runs it, and even with MacPorts and Fink, it's a pain to maintain.
This is a very subjective area, but "overpriced" depends very much. The price of the OS is negligible (20$) and yes, you can get a cheaper machine than an iMac with about the same specs, but ultrabooks comparable to the MacBook Air only now start to roll out at the same or even lower prices. The Retina MBP currently has no comparable counterpart and is expensive, but honestly, if all you do is stare at a machine as your job you better pick a machine that pleases you as much as possible (...). For me it's not just a bag of components, it's my daily companion, I give a damn how douchey this sounds. It's for the same reason that I haven't bought my desk at Ikea - I sit at the damn thing most of my day, I better feel good when touching the wood.
I don't understand what you mean by "limiting".
And "a pain to maintain", I don't feel this way at all, but again, this probably depends on which modules you need. In virtually all cases I can use the Ubuntu install instructions and substitute "brew" for "apt-get" and be done.
That was a little extreme perhaps, granted. But still nothing compared to "going thermonuclear", the phrasing of Steve Jobs :)
Haha, indeed. So we complete the circle and we're back at weapons.
Nicely defended. There is the Apple Care program which I have seen work out for several people at my department, but ok, I can see how this could be improved. Still, the "[Apple isn't] interested in meeting anyone's standards but their own" is a generalization that's way over the top.
True, but they mostly use OS X like an iPad: to run consumer apps and as a thin client. Very few computer scientists or engineers actually develop for OS X.
You are right in that few native OS X apps are being developed, but the amount of webapps and open-source scripts and high-performance tools being developed on OS X is huge - at least at the departments that I interact with and work (biomedical). Those tools compile just fine on Linux and OS X, and with Fink, MacPorts and Homebrew there are three *nix package managers available, with A LOT of Linux packages available.
The choice to use OS X is currently a choice that makes much sense, from a very pragmatic viewpoint. OS X may be replaced by other OS'es as you say, but it's not like this is going to happen overnight.
Note the absense of Apple in business and government. They aren't interested in meeting anyone's standards but their own.
You mean standards like DOC or PPT? And Exchange, almost forgot that standard. Is there some other standard people use when working for businesses and governments?
The logic of the internets, boom, in your face! xD
I simply explain that Apple is Anti-Free market and anti-consumer-choice.
While I do not want to defend Apple's latest tactics (I think we all agree on those), it's a little harsh to say that "Apple is anti-free market" when Apple gave us the type of phones that we have today. Yes, maybe some other company would have done it by now, but it was still Apple starting it, and it was them who fucked with the carriers to get a decent phone out.
Just saying this battle is fought overly emotional these days.
You probably also put your money in a bank that invests in arms, saying: hey I don't care, this bank gives me the highest interest.
I don't. But I like how you compare creating and distributing arms with a lawsuit over a frickin telephone.
If you are a computing professional you should not buy Apple. Apple is the troll of our field.
I am. I do.
You may disagree on the last point, but if you don't then please stop using that "but it's the only thing that works" argument, because it is simply flawed, there are plenty of alternatives.
I never said it's the only thing that works, I said I use it because it works very well for me. I don't agree with Apple's tactics as obviously nobody here does, but just because Apple is being mean to Samsung (that's about the scope of it) I'm not going to switch to more "open" software just for the sake of it.
I've been following this on Groklaw for a while, and it's obvious yet again how badly the US patent system is broken when Apple can patent a rectangle with rounded corners and succeed in banning devices of the same shape, and yet refuse to licence the basic technology that is needed for the phone to actually behave like a phone and make calls.
You may be glad to hear that the "rounded rectangle" patent, design patent 504,889, was actually NOT found to be infringed, meaning Apple can NOT patent a rectangle with rounded corners.
What you just described - making a new product by slightly altering an existing one - happens in the food world all the time with no legal issues at all.
Exactly. Take Cocoa Cola and Pepsi for example. They also... oh wait. Nevermind.
What's keeping Apple from making a $499 laptop?
I'm sure Porsche could also make a 20,000$ car. Would it still be worthy to carry a "Porsche" logo, though?
This. Almost tragic that I had to scroll down all this way to get such a comment. I need to get my stuff done. I'm probably not going to do it with 700$ software, but if 30$ software gives me pleasure using it I give a damn about it being open or free. And the ecosystem of great apps is by far bigger on OS X and iOS than on other platforms, simple as that.