Again, we need to seperate the mode of communication from the actual content. Your analogy of television being broken into episodes is a description of the format of the medium. The format has nothing to do with the content. Comics come in monthly issues. Those issues are broken down into pages, and further broken down into panels. Where does "need superhero" fit there?
Some examples of comics that completely avoided the superhero formula:
1) Maus by Art Speiglman. It is a biographical book about the authors experiences in the holocaust. The caracters are portrayed as different types of animals to symbolize the relationship between the different factions involved in the story. Happened to win a Pulitzer by the way.
2) Strangers in Paradise by Terry Moore. Not the deepest story, but its story is based on a kind of contemporary love triange. The story itself is not original, but it is new to the comic medium.
3) The Sandman by Neil Gaiman. Tons of mythology, and a character that is one of the most powerful in known creation. However, he is not a noble character, he is not threatened by evil, all of his conflict is actually self afflicted. Again, very far from standard good/evil superhero fare.
I would consider 15 years as relatively recent, as the CCA was established in the early 50's if I recall correctly. Mature books started really happening in the 90's. 30-40 years of almost no development in any other genre than "superhero" is pretty stagnant.
Even now, most of the mature books are just the same "superhero" formula with more mature subject matter. It's a step in the right direction, but the medium remains largely stuck in the traditional genre. Work by people like Neil Gaiman, Frank Miller, Art Spiegelman, etc. are whats really expanding the medium. People who don't let the medium of expression dictate the story they are expressing.
To tie back into the main topic, we already have a games industry where similar artistic innovation is happening. Thanks to the openness of the industry, it's development has been much faster than that of movies or comics. I would say that games are at about the same level as the comics industry from the standpoint artistic maturity, and further ahead on public awareness of that maturity. Considering the timeframe that gaming has developed, it's quite impressive. I just don't want to see something done to stunt that growth, but people ignorant of the possibilities the medium has will do just that.
Yeah. Ever since the MPAA was founded, we haven't seen any R or XXX rated films...
I sense a bit of sarcasm to this.
The movie industry is alot futher along than the comics industry, and I would bet that at the beginnings of the MPAA it was very rare to see a R rated movie. In the comic industry, things are just starting to open up to more mature content with newer publishers (such as Image) and independants. However, the mainstream (Marvel, DC) still stay away from anything that would not be approved by the CCA. Even today, the things that DC publishes that are not approved are generally listed under their Vertigo line and
don't carry the DC logo.
So does Eve: The Second Genesis. Subscription numbers really started to climb once the free client download came out. Especially since they had lost their publisher and it wasn't on shelves for a couple months. We also recently broke the 10,000 simultaneous users mark in the same game world. (not sharded) This is up from 3-4k when it was a box at retailers. Appearantly there is a market for this type of distrobution.
While the parent was a complete joke (and a funny one at that) it actually made me think of something applicable.
With media as it is in America today, has ANYONE not been exposed to violence in media? How do you find a control group for these studies? You'd have to find people who never see movies or television, never listen to radio, and to an extent do not read newspapers, magazines, or books. Otherwise, you cannot be certain that it is only videogame violence that correlates to physical violence. Basically, the results are worthless with multiple variables.
The comic industry faced the same thing decades ago. The resulting Comics Code Authority effectively halted growth of that medium. Not getting the CCA seal on a book was pretty much a deathmark as no retailer would touch it with a 10 foot pole. This is only recently starting to change and the medium is finally getting a chance to mature.
The last thing we need is a version of the CCA for games. Imagine if all major retailers like Best Buy and Wal-Mart stopped carrying anything with an ESRB rating higher than E (everyone)? You would definitely see a shift in what projects publishers would fund. Many of the most critically acclaimed games would never see the light of day, as the publishers couldn't hope to recoup development and publishing costs.
Now, god forbid, something like this happens, I don't see it having as drastic an impact as the CCA did on the comic industry, but mature titles would shift to smaller, independant publishers with lower budgets. The big dogs would protect their sales by focusing on games that would get the most retail exposure. I would expect consoles to be hit the hardest by something like this. Nintendo, Sony, or Microsoft would never license a game that would never be seen on a retail rack. (In much the same way that Marvel and DC kept all their stuff CCA compliant)
It's a bit before my time, so I'm asking. Did the motion picture industry face the same thing early on?
Broadcasting the Teletubbies 24/7 will do nothing to fix the problem these people have in their heads
Broadcast the Teletubbies 24/7, and I would be willing to bet that violence increases dramatically. I dunno about the rest of you, but that would definitely drive me psychotic within a few days.
True enough on the specific chronology. But we can agree that they are quite related. And if Marathon happened long after the events in Halo, who's to say the covenant and Pfhor didn't come into contact? Mebbe in Halo 2 we kill the Covenant before the Pfhor have really developed? Heck, the Pfhor could be the remenants of Covenant. They both like energy weapons....
As far as Bungie's publishing, up until Halo, their games were primarily Mac, but either ported, or released on PC at the same time. Even still, Bungie was a Mac game publisher. And it is a shame they went to the dark side. Of course, you have to look at the business aspect of things. The PC gaming market is MUCH more lucrative than the Mac gaming market, and the console market is far bigger than both. While not loyal, they made a pretty smart move from a business standpoint. How many other games of theirs have the widespread success Halo did?
On a side note, concerning the difference in market maturity between console and PC games... When was the last time you saw a TV commercial for a PC game? Especially one that does NOT have a console version? I can't think of any, but then again, I hardly ever watch TV nowadays....
This is very true, and in gaming, can be a very effective way to involve the player into the storyline. Take Homeworld as an example. In the third mission, you see glimpses of the destruction of Kharak, and your entire race. Theres some video, but very vague. This lets the player fill in the blanks. Even when the voiceover talks about the prisoner you took. "He did not survive the interrogation" There is no graphic video showing what happened, so the player decides. Did the interrogators brutally torture the prisoner? Did the prisoner commit suicide? It's never specified, so the player's imagination determines what went on in that interrogation room.
Small things like this have a much bigger effect on the player's experience. While the specifics may not have any effect on the story as a whole, those little freedoms allow the player to become much more involved with the story they are playing out.
Good comparison between the two cultures. I recommend Scott McCloud's "Understanding Comics" for more along these lines. Great book.
A majority of American Comics fit this mold. Thankfully, there are notabe exceptions. Neil Gaiman's "The Sandman" and Dave Sim's "Cerebus" are very good examples of what comics that break this mold with a decidedly finite and cohesive story throughout the series. There are also good examples of qualit writing even in the generic canon of comics. "Batman: The Dark Knight Returns" by Frank Miller is a great take on what can sometimes be a really cheesy character concept. Crazy guy who dresses up like a bat to fight crime. The way Miller makes such a character believable is nothing short of amazing. I'd love to see a movie adaption of it personally.
Call it a hunch, but I think everyone is visitor #7777777. The number 7 is a very significant number in the Marathon series, and people are STILL digging up "hidden 7's" in the games. So, the visitor number is really just an inside joke.
It's a shame Bungie has come to PC's, as it was really the ONLY thing Mac gaming had. Pathways, Marathon, ONI, Myth.... All GREAT games.
And IMHO Halo is a worthy successor to the Marathon lineage. (Hell, if some of the possible connections are fleshed out, it could qualify as a sequel!)
I'd have to say the best video game stories are the ones you can talk to other people about. Who cares if I say "Damn, one time I killed a bunch of flood with my shotgun, blah blah" - but when you start talking about getting off that last spell right after Kefka smacked you with "fallen angel" to beat the game with a party total of 4hp, now we're talking!
I dunno how many times I ran out of ammo fighting Flood in Halo, and I really don't see the difference between that and beating Kefka on 4hp. The great thing about FFIV was the plot and character development. If the final battle with Kefka was completely scripted (like the duel between Cloud and Sepheroth) and the outcome pre-ordained, it would still have just as much emotional impact. Thats how strong the story was. Heck, some of the stuff Square does in battles is flat out rediculous! Like Sephiroth's Nova spell. He destroys the friggin sun! But the fights aren't whats important. It's the reason you're fighting.
Homeworld is another good example. Well developed backstory in the manual, and a suprisingly involving plot for a RTS.
Also, if you read some of the backstory provided in the novels, the Myst series actually has a very deep plot. It's just that the actual games only give you a glimpse of what lies beneath the surface. Read the books and then play Riven. Theres alot more to be appreciated if you do.
There is definitely a correlation, and as in cinema, there is room for both.
Is UT2k4 inferior to Max Payne II because it has no plot or compelling story? Not really, they serve different purposes. UT falls under the "Arcade Game Instant Gratification" category, and does it well.
Sometimes I want to watch a "Schindler's List" with an engaging and thought provoking plot that makes me question my views of humanity, and sometimes I'm in the mood for a "Star Wars" with a simplistic plot, bad acting, and kick ass SFX.
It good to see Games maturing as an art form, and I appreciate a well written game as much as the next guy, but a well designed multiplayer fps is no less rewarding.
What are you babbling about?
None of the Final Fantasy games have anything in common with one another. No unifying theme, story, characters, setting or plot.
Final Fantasy has some very deep unifying themes. You can have completely different plots and settings with the same underlying theme. Just about all of the games deal with fundamental good/evil, reluctant heroes, fate, Gaia/earth spirits, etc. (Whats the difference between FF VII's lifestream and Spirit's Gaia?) The Spirits Within fit with the series very well, even if it was more of a sci-fi setting than fantasy.
Fully agreed. Some good games adapt well, but that is because of the story involved. Although there are some "good" stories that are difficult to realize on film.
Examples: Halo has enough of a background story to translate very well to the screen I would imagine. Its simple enough to adapt to film without sacrificing much of the original plot. It's also accessible enough for general audiences.
Conversely, most final fantasy games are far to "big" to do justice on the screen. You'd have to cut half the characters, simpify the story, or make it a LONG ASS movie for it to even remotely work.
Both are good games and have decent stories. However one would make a much better movie than the other.
Scott McCloud made sure to explain the difference between the form of the art, and the content. Don't confuse the message with the messenger. I think that is equally applicable here.
I've been playing Eve for almost a year now. Quite different from the "norm" of MMO's, and very complex. However it's definitely getting stale. The time based training, which seemed great when I started, is really a detriment in the high end game.
WHen you're developing your char, you basically work to increase your assets. Bigger ship, better guns, more isk, etc. The problem lies when you no longer need the assets. I have my ship(s) of choice, all the gear I want, full set of implants, and a good financial base to cover my expenses for a long time. Now when I log in, anything I do really has no affect on my character or my gameplay. I can mine for more isk, but I don't need it. I can hunt for gear, but I already got it. I can build faction, but I've already got it higher than I need. It's just fluff. The only development is skill training, and that goes just as fast if I'm offline. Basically, it's a state of diminishing returns on your actions. Yeah, I can double my assets, but for what? I can go wage war on another player corporation, but to what end? New features in development promise the ability to build your own stations in space. Great! But why???
The game has no high end motivating force besides "just because". It's a shame really, because it's a well done game for the most part, and better than most MMO's in my opinion. I just find myself logging in out of habit more than anything now.
Check out Guild Wars. their proposed system has you downloading content as needed in the backgound while you play. Should be transparent. Dunno how well it'll work in practice, but it's a good idea at least.
Slashdot Mirror
Again, we need to seperate the mode of communication from the actual content. Your analogy of television being broken into episodes is a description of the format of the medium. The format has nothing to do with the content. Comics come in monthly issues. Those issues are broken down into pages, and further broken down into panels. Where does "need superhero" fit there?
Some examples of comics that completely avoided the superhero formula:
1) Maus by Art Speiglman. It is a biographical book about the authors experiences in the holocaust. The caracters are portrayed as different types of animals to symbolize the relationship between the different factions involved in the story. Happened to win a Pulitzer by the way.
2) Strangers in Paradise by Terry Moore. Not the deepest story, but its story is based on a kind of contemporary love triange. The story itself is not original, but it is new to the comic medium.
3) The Sandman by Neil Gaiman. Tons of mythology, and a character that is one of the most powerful in known creation. However, he is not a noble character, he is not threatened by evil, all of his conflict is actually self afflicted. Again, very far from standard good/evil superhero fare.
I get to go home now, so I'll post more later.
Wow, I missed the part of the article where pacmanhattan.com anounced their IPO. I gotta buy some of that!
The main thing that annoys me about the web is that it enables idiots like parent to inflict their idiocy on the rest of us.
dispite the ambiguity of the "tag you're it" ruleset, it's still fun.
What next? A planet where apes evolved from man?!?
I would consider 15 years as relatively recent, as the CCA was established in the early 50's if I recall correctly. Mature books started really happening in the 90's. 30-40 years of almost no development in any other genre than "superhero" is pretty stagnant.
Even now, most of the mature books are just the same "superhero" formula with more mature subject matter. It's a step in the right direction, but the medium remains largely stuck in the traditional genre. Work by people like Neil Gaiman, Frank Miller, Art Spiegelman, etc. are whats really expanding the medium. People who don't let the medium of expression dictate the story they are expressing.
To tie back into the main topic, we already have a games industry where similar artistic innovation is happening. Thanks to the openness of the industry, it's development has been much faster than that of movies or comics. I would say that games are at about the same level as the comics industry from the standpoint artistic maturity, and further ahead on public awareness of that maturity. Considering the timeframe that gaming has developed, it's quite impressive. I just don't want to see something done to stunt that growth, but people ignorant of the possibilities the medium has will do just that.
Otherwise it would be called "Microsoft Walls"
The movie industry is alot futher along than the comics industry, and I would bet that at the beginnings of the MPAA it was very rare to see a R rated movie. In the comic industry, things are just starting to open up to more mature content with newer publishers (such as Image) and independants. However, the mainstream (Marvel, DC) still stay away from anything that would not be approved by the CCA. Even today, the things that DC publishes that are not approved are generally listed under their Vertigo line and don't carry the DC logo.
I REALLY hate working dial-up tech support.
(ring)
sigh....
So does Eve: The Second Genesis. Subscription numbers really started to climb once the free client download came out. Especially since they had lost their publisher and it wasn't on shelves for a couple months. We also recently broke the 10,000 simultaneous users mark in the same game world. (not sharded) This is up from 3-4k when it was a box at retailers. Appearantly there is a market for this type of distrobution.
While the parent was a complete joke (and a funny one at that) it actually made me think of something applicable.
With media as it is in America today, has ANYONE not been exposed to violence in media? How do you find a control group for these studies? You'd have to find people who never see movies or television, never listen to radio, and to an extent do not read newspapers, magazines, or books. Otherwise, you cannot be certain that it is only videogame violence that correlates to physical violence. Basically, the results are worthless with multiple variables.
The comic industry faced the same thing decades ago. The resulting Comics Code Authority effectively halted growth of that medium. Not getting the CCA seal on a book was pretty much a deathmark as no retailer would touch it with a 10 foot pole. This is only recently starting to change and the medium is finally getting a chance to mature.
The last thing we need is a version of the CCA for games. Imagine if all major retailers like Best Buy and Wal-Mart stopped carrying anything with an ESRB rating higher than E (everyone)? You would definitely see a shift in what projects publishers would fund. Many of the most critically acclaimed games would never see the light of day, as the publishers couldn't hope to recoup development and publishing costs.
Now, god forbid, something like this happens, I don't see it having as drastic an impact as the CCA did on the comic industry, but mature titles would shift to smaller, independant publishers with lower budgets. The big dogs would protect their sales by focusing on games that would get the most retail exposure. I would expect consoles to be hit the hardest by something like this. Nintendo, Sony, or Microsoft would never license a game that would never be seen on a retail rack. (In much the same way that Marvel and DC kept all their stuff CCA compliant)
It's a bit before my time, so I'm asking. Did the motion picture industry face the same thing early on?
NO MORE TINKY WINKY! (Blam!)
True enough on the specific chronology. But we can agree that they are quite related. And if Marathon happened long after the events in Halo, who's to say the covenant and Pfhor didn't come into contact? Mebbe in Halo 2 we kill the Covenant before the Pfhor have really developed? Heck, the Pfhor could be the remenants of Covenant. They both like energy weapons....
As far as Bungie's publishing, up until Halo, their games were primarily Mac, but either ported, or released on PC at the same time. Even still, Bungie was a Mac game publisher. And it is a shame they went to the dark side. Of course, you have to look at the business aspect of things. The PC gaming market is MUCH more lucrative than the Mac gaming market, and the console market is far bigger than both. While not loyal, they made a pretty smart move from a business standpoint. How many other games of theirs have the widespread success Halo did?
On a side note, concerning the difference in market maturity between console and PC games... When was the last time you saw a TV commercial for a PC game? Especially one that does NOT have a console version? I can't think of any, but then again, I hardly ever watch TV nowadays....
This is very true, and in gaming, can be a very effective way to involve the player into the storyline. Take Homeworld as an example. In the third mission, you see glimpses of the destruction of Kharak, and your entire race. Theres some video, but very vague. This lets the player fill in the blanks. Even when the voiceover talks about the prisoner you took. "He did not survive the interrogation" There is no graphic video showing what happened, so the player decides. Did the interrogators brutally torture the prisoner? Did the prisoner commit suicide? It's never specified, so the player's imagination determines what went on in that interrogation room.
Small things like this have a much bigger effect on the player's experience. While the specifics may not have any effect on the story as a whole, those little freedoms allow the player to become much more involved with the story they are playing out.
Good comparison between the two cultures. I recommend Scott McCloud's "Understanding Comics" for more along these lines. Great book.
A majority of American Comics fit this mold. Thankfully, there are notabe exceptions. Neil Gaiman's "The Sandman" and Dave Sim's "Cerebus" are very good examples of what comics that break this mold with a decidedly finite and cohesive story throughout the series. There are also good examples of qualit writing even in the generic canon of comics. "Batman: The Dark Knight Returns" by Frank Miller is a great take on what can sometimes be a really cheesy character concept. Crazy guy who dresses up like a bat to fight crime. The way Miller makes such a character believable is nothing short of amazing. I'd love to see a movie adaption of it personally.
It's a shame Bungie has come to PC's, as it was really the ONLY thing Mac gaming had. Pathways, Marathon, ONI, Myth.... All GREAT games.
And IMHO Halo is a worthy successor to the Marathon lineage. (Hell, if some of the possible connections are fleshed out, it could qualify as a sequel!)
I dunno how many times I ran out of ammo fighting Flood in Halo, and I really don't see the difference between that and beating Kefka on 4hp. The great thing about FFIV was the plot and character development. If the final battle with Kefka was completely scripted (like the duel between Cloud and Sepheroth) and the outcome pre-ordained, it would still have just as much emotional impact. Thats how strong the story was. Heck, some of the stuff Square does in battles is flat out rediculous! Like Sephiroth's Nova spell. He destroys the friggin sun! But the fights aren't whats important. It's the reason you're fighting.
Homeworld is another good example. Well developed backstory in the manual, and a suprisingly involving plot for a RTS.
Also, if you read some of the backstory provided in the novels, the Myst series actually has a very deep plot. It's just that the actual games only give you a glimpse of what lies beneath the surface. Read the books and then play Riven. Theres alot more to be appreciated if you do.
There is definitely a correlation, and as in cinema, there is room for both.
Is UT2k4 inferior to Max Payne II because it has no plot or compelling story? Not really, they serve different purposes. UT falls under the "Arcade Game Instant Gratification" category, and does it well.
Sometimes I want to watch a "Schindler's List" with an engaging and thought provoking plot that makes me question my views of humanity, and sometimes I'm in the mood for a "Star Wars" with a simplistic plot, bad acting, and kick ass SFX.
It good to see Games maturing as an art form, and I appreciate a well written game as much as the next guy, but a well designed multiplayer fps is no less rewarding.
Metroid 2 was better. :)
It's amazing how much tension you can build in a B/W gameboy game. Heh, the less enemies there were, the more dangerous it was.
"Oh look, a metroid husk. F--k."
Final Fantasy has some very deep unifying themes. You can have completely different plots and settings with the same underlying theme. Just about all of the games deal with fundamental good/evil, reluctant heroes, fate, Gaia/earth spirits, etc. (Whats the difference between FF VII's lifestream and Spirit's Gaia?) The Spirits Within fit with the series very well, even if it was more of a sci-fi setting than fantasy.
Fully agreed. Some good games adapt well, but that is because of the story involved. Although there are some "good" stories that are difficult to realize on film.
Examples:
Halo has enough of a background story to translate very well to the screen I would imagine. Its simple enough to adapt to film without sacrificing much of the original plot. It's also accessible enough for general audiences.
Conversely, most final fantasy games are far to "big" to do justice on the screen. You'd have to cut half the characters, simpify the story, or make it a LONG ASS movie for it to even remotely work.
Both are good games and have decent stories. However one would make a much better movie than the other.
Scott McCloud made sure to explain the difference between the form of the art, and the content. Don't confuse the message with the messenger. I think that is equally applicable here.
I've been playing Eve for almost a year now. Quite different from the "norm" of MMO's, and very complex. However it's definitely getting stale. The time based training, which seemed great when I started, is really a detriment in the high end game.
WHen you're developing your char, you basically work to increase your assets. Bigger ship, better guns, more isk, etc. The problem lies when you no longer need the assets. I have my ship(s) of choice, all the gear I want, full set of implants, and a good financial base to cover my expenses for a long time. Now when I log in, anything I do really has no affect on my character or my gameplay. I can mine for more isk, but I don't need it. I can hunt for gear, but I already got it. I can build faction, but I've already got it higher than I need. It's just fluff. The only development is skill training, and that goes just as fast if I'm offline. Basically, it's a state of diminishing returns on your actions. Yeah, I can double my assets, but for what? I can go wage war on another player corporation, but to what end? New features in development promise the ability to build your own stations in space. Great! But why???
The game has no high end motivating force besides "just because". It's a shame really, because it's a well done game for the most part, and better than most MMO's in my opinion. I just find myself logging in out of habit more than anything now.
Personally, I'm looking forward to Guild Wars more than WoW. I really like the ideas of instanced content, and structured PvP.
Check out Guild Wars. their proposed system has you downloading content as needed in the backgound while you play. Should be transparent. Dunno how well it'll work in practice, but it's a good idea at least.
Oh, and NO monthly fees will be nice too.