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Sam Lake on Video Game Storytelling
loladeutsch writes "What makes for a great story in a video game? Sometimes, with all the innovative development and cool graphics the actual story a game has to tell can get lost in the shuffle, or at least can seem to be an afterthought. When a game arrives on the shelves that presents one of the more engrossing stories we've seen in awhile, it's worth noting. Max Payne 2: The Fall of Max Payne has been recognized by many people with their heads screwed on straight as a benchmark in video-game storytelling. "
I see the problem with video game stories as a systemic one, and Sam Lake touches on this when he identifies novels as a singular effort, and video games as a team effort. When you have a bunch of people with different backgrounds working on a project, quite a bit of infighting can occur. Plus there is the aspects of how stories affect the gameplay, and the scaling of the combat in games. The story may call for particular systems to be in place that are impossible, so it is critical for authors to fully understand the game design process to interpret these events into a literary context.
The dangers of knowledge trigger emotional distress in human beings.
ok maybe not that last one...but it had a big fscking gun!
Did you know you can be apathetic to apathy? Not that I give a shit...
games like Tomb Raider held my attention much longer than some basic arcade style game. In fact, that's what made consoles diff from the arcades back in the day, a multi-level story, not some 2d game that offers no change upon repeated plays.
super mario? thanks, but our princess is in another castle! ARRRGGG!
PCB
free ipod and free gmail!
It seems to me that it isn't always necessary for a game to have a well-written story to be enjoyable, but as technology advances, the possibilities for immersion in the world you see on screen increase also.
In A.D. 2101
....
War was beginning.
Captain: What happen ?
Mechanic: Somebody set up us the bomb.
spoken in the Flash animation as Someone set up us the bomb
Operator: We get signal.
Captain: What !
Operator: Main screen turn on.
Captain: It's you !!
Cats: How are you gentlemen !!
Cats: All your base are belong to us.
Cats: You are on the way to destruction.
Captain: What you say !!
Cats: You have no chance to survive make your time.
Cats: Ha Ha Ha Ha
Operator: Captain !!*
Captain: Take off every 'Zig'!!
Captain: You know what you doing.
Captain: Move 'Zig'.
Captain: For great justice.
Check out the best P2P sharing website: MEDIACHEST.COM
IAALS.
Managing to intergrate the narration into the gameplay (as seamlessly as possible) is a huge key to effective storytelling and immersion in games. A few of the good ones would be Half-Life and MOH:AA.
Since when did a good game need one of those? Back in the good old days, all we had were little pixels that roamed the screen, and if they actually did something, we were amazed. Story, heh. Those young'ens today are spoiled, I tell ya.
EVERYDAY IS CATURDAY
...Grand Theft Auto: Vice City doesn't qualify as a good story? Awww....
It is not our abilities that show what we truly are... it is our choices.
Yeah, that was a great story ... that lasted me an afternoon. I finished the entire game in like 4 hours. It was ridiculous.
Now, a game like Knights of the Old Republic, that was great. 30+ hours (and easily replayable), somewhat open story with interesting characters, and fun game play!
"Deus Ex" (NOT #2)
"System Shock 2" (Discovering Dr. Polito still sends shivers)
any of the "Thief" series.
"Half Life"
...minimum game for maximum dollar. I'm done with that franchise, though I was able to thief $25 from an unsuspecting soul on eBay and thus halve the damage to my wallet.
Nice looking game. Story present. Over at T-plus two hours from purchase.
So long as it compliments gameplay. I love playing a game that I feel a part of, but at the same time, I'm not going to continue playing it just because of a cool story.
;)
One has to compliment the other, and I think most of us would prefer the games that are better to *play*, rather than those we feel a part of because of an excellent storyline.
I still play Quake 1
I think that the story is by far the most important thing in a game. I still go back and play games from '99 and before and enjoy them alot. I play the half-life single player at least once a year. Also I just recently played the first Home-world and it was the story that kept me so rivited to it. So what if the graphics aren't top notch, people are not going to pay 50 dollars for their hard earned cash for nothing more then an interactive tech demo. I also just found Multi User Dungeons online, such as nannymud, its all text, but the stoies in these gamaes are deeper then morst comercial games right now, and I'm am hooked on those.
404
The article noted that the script to this installation of "Max Payne" is four times longer than a movie script.
Now, I haven't played the game, but if that means it's an eight-hour movie with a little "Okay, move from point A to point B now" thrown in.. no thanks.
I feel that way about some of the Final Fantasy games. I remember thinking "Wow... 90 minutes in... wonder when I'll, you know, fight a battle."
That stuff was great when I was 14 and on summer vacation. At 25, I want something I can *play* in 2 hours.. not "get all set up to start playing."
"Beware he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart he deems himself your master."
Max Payne 2's storyline was pretty good, but it got downright pretentious at moments, trying for an emotional depth that the characters just didn't deserve. And you can forget about subtlety.
No, the best storyline I've ever seen in a game is the Marathon series from Bungie. They've been out for over 9 years, and people are still discovering new depths to the story after all this time.
---- El diablo esta en mis pantalones! Mire, mire!
Yeah, I thought the "benchmark" was Planescape: Torment.
Somebody should tell him that PCP works like, way better d00d!
For quite some time now I, along with some friends of mine, have been considering starting a gaming company. The gaming industry now nets even more money that the movie industry, so this is obviously a potentionally lucrative nische in SW development.
However, coming up with a gaming concept; a storyline for the game, is anything but trivial. Finding some concept that hasnt been done to death already seems almost impossible. Anyone have any ideas?
Actually, if you do, please email them to big.nothing@bigger.com (and don't tell anyone that YOU had the idea first or that you told it to me!).
SIG: TAKE OFF EVERY 'CAPTAIN'!!
Remember: it's more than just the story.
Even some of the earliest action-oriented video games had elaborate stories behind them, but that usually didn't mean much when playing.
Huh? What about Deus Ex or System Shock 2? You want story, look to the FPS/RPG mixes... thats where its at!
Good quote, too many chars. Seriously, the slashdot 120 char limit sucks!
I reckon the thing that makes a good plot is the feeling that, while your efforts make a difference, you're part of something much, much bigger. If you look at nearly all the games out there, while you DO save the world, it's only because of a lucky set of chances on your part (or so the storytellers make out).
HAH! I just wasted a second of your life making you read this, but I wasted a minute of mine thinking it up. DAMN.
Well, it depends on the genre, but Japanese games usually have much more involving stories (in terms of identifiable plot-points & a sense of evolution/progression) than American ones. Then again, one could argue that many such storylines are too linear and don't give the player enough choices. But more and more Japanese games are providing multiple endings & etc... Overall it looks like a good trend for the industry to follow.
And all our yesterdays have lighted fools The way to dusty death. --Will
Actually, for me, the benchmark in video-game storytelling is Leisure Suit Larry, from Sierra On Line. That d00d is my hero.
I haven't seen an all your base reference in two, three minutes tops! I thought everyone had forgotten about it.
I think not. Penny Arcade, as usual, puts it best.
We may see some of these tools shipping with Doom 3. I can only speculate, but I heard tale of some really cool editing tools this time around. Something about making levels in realtime? Can anyone confirm/deny this? (JC?)
I'm heading up a special mod project for Doom 3 that will only see the light if we can get some amazing models talent on board, so even if there is IF styled game design, there still remains the problems of customization.
The dangers of knowledge trigger emotional distress in human beings.
The bar is getting lower. Doesn't anyone remember Zork?
Good character is essential. Characters should fuel the plot. To many game companies have this backward starting with a concept and then dumping stock characters into that concept. Good game stories are often the result of hireing a character desginer who has a background as a author, instead of using another IT guy.
(...) Sometimes, with all the innovative development and cool graphics the actual story a game has to tell can get lost in the shuffle.
With Max Payne, I'm not sure that's a bad thing. Only game where the story justified the gameplay was Half-Life, and I really can't think of any other videog that reaches its level.
"You should never doubt what nobody is sure about." -- Willy Wonka
I think the greatest video story ever told was that of the lonely hungry yellow orb with eyeballs. Always running from his past, devouring the needed fuel to keep him going and learning life as he traveled the mazes of unpredictability. Chased by the undead that could never understand his ideology nor motives only to cause this lost soul to consume a secret drug like substance that multiplied his anger and made him insanely aggressive for short uncontrollable periods of time. It is a story of a journey that will never subside and never end.
Oh, and he liked to eat fruit.
On the other hand you have games like Morrowind. Great sense of freedom and that contributed to the quality of it's gameplay. As a side-effect, the storyline was easily mangled, and you could break the main quests by doing things out of order, going to where you shouldn't be too early, etc...
Until we reach a point where the hardware is powerful enough that programmers can create an adaptive enough AI, Storyline will just be a euphemism for 'railroading'.
The basic problem is that video games are a poor format for story telling. Good stories require fine control of plot, pacing, character, setting and theme. The more control is given to the player, the less control the writer has over the elements of good story telling.
That said, there are a number of ways a good writer could dramatically improve the quality of numerous video games, and help improve various genres. Most publishers now take great delight in emphasizing the total lack of literature in their products.
If video games are to truly become meaningful, then they must convey meaning.
Business isn't willing to pay for products, innovation and careers, so we get brands, mortgage commercials and layoffs.
This debate will always be subjective and multi-faceted, and no one will ever agree completely on what gives a game that special "something"....
Personally, I think the best kind of story for a computer game is definitely a sense of mystery; of the unknown. Games like Gabriel Knight do it wonderfully; your knowledge of who you are and what you're up against slowly but surely expands the more you play.Torment was also an exceptional computer game; you played it to find out who you were and what your relationship with those around you was.
A sense of magic is another good facet; games like Little Big Adventure, Syberia, and ever The Secret of Monkey Island all had that "something" to them that many games just can't capture, although I couldn't tell you precisely what that something is.....
But anyway. I've only played the original Max Payne, not the sequel, but I couldn't get over the shallow, pretentious sixth-form poetry that seemed to litter it; it was trying too hard.....
I understand the need for a good story in games, but games offer entertainment in many different ways -- storytelling is just one of them. You can't tell me that Solitaire has a compelling story, yet people play it.
A good story should/could drive a game, as people will overlook bad gameplay to an extent, if they're entertained by the story. OTOH, games with 10min gameplay in between 20min "cutscenes" start to get tedious after a while.
Gameplay will still be key for a game. Storytelling comes as a close second. While we're at it, why not discuss the need for emphasis on storytelling/content in movies instead of visual effects?
Not that I am one to disagree, because I've never played the sequel, but MP2 has long been a butt of joke after joke because of the dialouge. All this despite the fact that everyone agrees that the game itself is very good. But it sounds as though you are talking about the story more than the game, and thusly the dialouge more than the play.
George II -- Spreading Freedom and American values, one bomb at a time.
, Grim Fandango, damn am I spotting a trend here?
Should it be so suprising that pure action games generally have relatively weak story lines(with the exception of a few), whereas the more thought provoking ones(in terms of gameplay) tend to have a better plot?
No correlation to movies is there?
Gameplay at the moment tends to be driven by arcade desires, I sort of feel we are still in the transition from the stand up arcade machine instant gratification level of gaming to a more time consuming home leisure pursuit.
Hence I feel the storylines will slowly get better as developers learn more about what is possible for a succesful game for the home, giving alternatives to the wham, bam , thank you kind lady style of today, in favour of a slower pace, yet ultimately more rewarding experience. Which of course are far greater suited for plot and story telling.
To get any kind of backing from todays gaming market, many companies are reverting to tried and tsted methods to create video games. That's why many of us are seeing an influx of FPS and other cliche game genres. Story telling games also reqire a lot more positions to be filled in a development team. Storytellers, etc. are extra positions to be filled. Also, the man hours spent alpha and beta testing can seriously hurt the deployment of a story based game. It seems most are happy with their FPS's, but I, for one, would like a very involved game soon. That, or enough money to buy 10 or so FPS's, because they become boring fast, IMHO. I remember the days I played the FF series... 80 hours a game... -Xeon
Real programmers can write assembly code in any language. -- Larry Wall
Well theres a few points to be made.. Tons of people say that when a book was released as a movie the book was so much better.. why? Because it was how they imagined it, not what hollywood could afford. It is similar when you compare a game such as Doom to Max Payne. Sure Doom didn't have the best story set up but it was there, and then you had your imagination to guide you through "what happened next". Max Payne on the other hand, tells you exactly what happens next, and that can't change from one person to another. It is linear by all means of the word.
I would prefer for a little open ended storyline. I find that I enjoymovies like Memento and Donny Darko better than most simply because it doesn't really tell you everything, it leaves you to discover with your imagination what exactly happened. Of course these movies also bug the hell out of you for weeks because there are multiple scenarios.. but that is beside the point
I used to think story didn't matter much at all in games. I liked twitch games (arcade, FPS, action, etc). For these kinds of games, story isn't all that welcome unless it's integrated into your experience, say in the way Half Life did it. (That was a milestone in interactive story telling right there, without ever taking away interaction to do it).
Over time, we've seen genres of games which, if it weren't for the pretty graphics, there'd be no real reason to play them. Thankfully, it's a genre that has matured and can be enjoyable. I'm referring to games like Silent Hill 2 and 3, where the actual interaction on its own is pretty clumsy, but the story is very interesting (well, in SH2 it was... in SH3 it was too convoluted and hokey).
I personally don't like the original Max Payne way of story telling too much. I don't like being narrated to. I want to be part of the experience.
I've said it before and I'll say it again, the story to Metal Gear Solid is amazing. I dont know how they thought it up but it just blows you away. I know I was completley suprised when I finished the game for the first time. I would have to say the best plot/story in a game has to be MGS. The original, for the playstation, didn't have great graphics but who cares, the game was awesome and so wasn't the story. They eventually did a remake on Gamecube and others called Twin Snakes, same game, redone. Better graphics and still a great story. Anways, MGS originally was released 1998 and I havn't seen a game with that good of a story since then.
I likd Max Payne 2, it was a fun game and I do like the graphic novel approach but the dark noir dialogue is really pretty cheesy. Good thing they don't take themselves too seriously.
But for an excellent game with a story behind it how about one that begins:
I remember dying. Not how, when or why, but the cold fact alone: dying. I look around, there are dead bodies lying around. But they certainly don't seem to remember much. Come to think of it, the dead are not suppose to remember dying. Death is the ultimate, finale fate. How come, then, that I breath? How come I feel cold, and afraid, and disoriented? And what comes next? Death is supposed to be the end, no one trains you on "what to do" while you're at it. Maybe I should just lay still, maybe...
"Come on chief, get up, hurry!" It's an annoying voice, which startles me. More so, the fact that it comes from a floating, whirling skull doesn't help. "What?" and my own voice seems rasp, and strange to me. "What are you waiting for? get UP! we hafta get outta here!" again, the floating skull urges me to do something the dead are not supposed to do.
I comply, if for nothing else, because it makes as much sense as any other action. The dead, you know, are definitely not supposed to get up. "Boy, they sure tore you up good this time, you look even uglier than before" says the skull. They? this time? Before? Inside of me, ignorance and darkness are no longer fueling fear. There is another sentiment, a not so new one that grows within: rage.
It is right there, right then, in that dark, foul and creepy place, that I make a decision. I will do another thing that the dead are not supposed to: I will fight to remember my life.
1. (some) realism. 2. Originality 3. It has to be interesting 4. Originality 5. There has to be a reason for it to be there 6. Oh, and did i mention originality? Way too many good games are turned to trash by a storyline or an intro that sucks goat balls, like: The evil $boss_name and his men from $evil_faction are about to destroy the universe, and you have to stop him. Go on, $hero_name and kill him. Our fate lies in your hands.
this is probably the most boring sig in the world
How about the original games? Games like tetris don't have any story, and hell they do not need any. Chess - story? And don't say people do not play tetris anymore.
I remember really enjoying Golgo 13, Bionic Commando, and Ninja Gaiden (sp?) growing up.
Remake these games with new graphics, and the cycle continues...
-n-
Many modern implementations of computer-generated narrative -- video games being no exception -- are built from large, preset blocks of text constructed by the author, with either a set path for the plot to follow, or a significant amount of pure randomization to prompt variance in the experience. These approaches require skillful craftsmanship by the author and explicit identification of numerous story paths to an interactive and immersive experience.
Our work seeks to provide interactive narrative dynamically by using narrative theories to continuously adapt to the user's interactions while preserving dramatic content. We're investigating an architecture provides a dynamic run-time narrative, as opposed to a strict path that the user must follow to interact with the story. The main challenge of building a system like this is to preserve the story designer's dramatic vision while providing interactivity to the user. At one end of the spectrum we allow the users complete freedom to do whatever they please in their environment, without clear goals or limitations. This is much like online communities such as The Realm [Codemasters], where the users' goals consist of survival (or death if it interests them) and wandering the countryside while doing as they like to the environment and the other users. At the other end of the spectrum, we have the archetypical "good story": immersive, extremely detailed and well thought out. The reader is more or less constrained to experience the story exactly as the author intended, without deviation or variance. This is comparable to the epic film or engrossing book. We hope to straddle these two traditionally exclusive forms of narrative and provide an engaging hybrid.
In a nutshell, our system is composed of a story clip database that models the components of narratives and a set of algorithms that prescribe the combination of these components to build a story. The story clips are implemented as brief snippets of action or observation, with as little dependency on one another as possible. Each clip contains explicit pre- and postconditions that define limitations on when it can be added to the story and how the story is changed. A set of state vectors, called the story snapshot, is defined at runtime to permit fast verification of preconditions and simple accounting of postconditions. The algorithms that combine the clips form a narrative engine, which coordinates the concatenation of clips into a story that adheres to Branigan's model. In this system, we pay particular attention to the temporal relationships between story clips and define four dimensions of time that must be obeyed.
The narrative engine is the core for production of interactive stories. The run-time character, world, and narrative state vectors are compared to the precondition constraints of the clips stored in the database to extract the most appropriate story clip candidates. This comparison is accomplished by computing the vector difference between each story clip's preconditions and the current story snapshot. The difference vector is scaled by a proportional weighting vector to emphasize particular state vector components. The candidate clips specify potentially divergent plot options and some differences may rule out a clip completely, such as narrative and temporal cohesion. But variance is allowed and expected in the character states, as they describe one moment of time where each of the individuals in the story had one of many emotional combinations. The narrative engine orders the clips according to the quality of their match with the current story state.
The narrative engine uses the evaluated story cl
-- Samir Gupta, Ph. D. Head, New Technology Research Group, Nintendo Co. Ltd., Kyoto, Japan.
I have two kids and work to contend with, so I rarely get a chance to play games these days. I often ignore story-based games for this reason: no time to finish the story. Zelda: The Wind Waker fell victim to this, Resident Evil, Prince of Persia...lots that are considered to be good by most people's standards (though I had other reasons for dumping Resident Evil too - let me know when they've got a reasonable save system and controls that don't involve walking into every wall, would you?).
But The Getaway passed the test with flying colours. A good plot, great soundtrack, good graphics and lots of tension. Can't knock it - I thoroughly recommend this game to anyone. Very much looking forward to The Getaway 2 which has been announced.
Cheers,
Ian
atari combat. That story made me cry.
A movie storyline... Jeez... I wish they'd get a clue and stop trying to rip movies directly-to-game. Movies are designed to tell a story, Games are designed to put you in a story...
If anything they should be going the other way!
LilMikey.com... I'll stop doing it when you sto
> I guess by your reasoning that special effect movies are impossible as well.
I didn't say that, really. Movies that have CG in them differ strongly from video games because they are not realtime; you can render anything with a few dozen systems working through the weekend, but if you want a client to render your scenes, they had better be well-thunk. When you have mouse and video lag to worry about (ie: real-time framerates), it makes the story harder to tell if you don't understand these issues, fully. Authors who do understand these things tend to create video games with fantastic stories that convince us of the reality of the situation, without detracting from the gameplay at all.
The dangers of knowledge trigger emotional distress in human beings.
THE PLOT:
You are a funny yellow head who is stuck in a maze. You must try to avoid the goblins who are out to touch you.
Meanwhile, you must eat as many little dots as possible to successfully move to the next chapter.
Now that's a good game!
CowboyAlex: The answer is:
Geek: What are the two Stupidest Possible Things a web server can be programmed to do during a Slashdotting?
CowboyAlex: Correct for $100, go again, geek!
I guess Baldur's Gate was just a graphics orgy with no plot or development.
--fetch daddy's blue fright wig, i must be handsome when i release my rage
...unfortunately, I'm not sure it was all positive. I'm quite certain that one of the hospital scenes in MP2 was the first time I thought to myself, "Enough of the fucking back story already. I want to play!"
The Max Payne team, and Sam Lake in particular, should be commended for bringing a level of depth to the story that most games in the genre have never even attempted. But there are a lot of people who believe that all that great story came at the price of disrupting the balance between exposition and gameplay. Plus, there are plenty of people who thought that the story just sucked.
On a side note: anyone else notice the resemblance between Max Payne story author Sam Lake, and Mr. Needs a Maalox himself?
OK Max Payne 2 was a good game. but wtf was all that baseball kid business? I thought it was ridiculously ott.
SURELY NOT!!!!!
I thought about making a post about Planescape: Torment, but it's been done already. Then I thought about making a post about Xenogears, but remembered Disc 2. (For those who haven't played it, Xenogears has one of the greatest stories of all time, and some of the worst storytelling, especially on its second and final disc. I could describe how it's done, but I would have to copy their style.)
This sig is only here so people stop skipping the last lines of my posts.
Stories come in many forms. Max Payne and others like it (Deus Ex, KOTOR, etc...) with the guided-by-the-hand role-playing feel have their appeal. I thought Knights of the Old Republic was the niftiest Star Wars story since Empire. But what's really impressive to me is when the game designers allow the player to more or less make up their own story, ala Morrowind. There was a central story, but the potential range for getting from point A to point Z allowed for a huge variance of gameplay in between. Those kinds of games engage the imagination in a different way than the 'movie story' games do. Or maybe I'm trying to justify the months of my life I squandered wandering around on Vvardenfell.
Not all of them need awesome storylines to have great playability:
Zelda: Guy has girl, Guy loses Girl. Guy must find Girl.
Mario: Guy has girl, Guy loses Girl. Guy must find Girl.
Gauntlet: Shoot stuff. Shoot stuff. Shoot stuff. Archer needs food. Shoot stuff. Shoot stuff.
What about games with ridiculous "stories" like:
Pac-Man: What story is there here? Yellow dot eats little dots, runs away from colored ghosts.
Asteroid: White triangle shoots at lined objects with a line.
Not all great games need amazing storylines, although they can certainly help matters (Resident Evil, Silent Hill, Max Payne).
Sig for GotSpider threatens to invade. France Surrenders.
This is a serious question: I'd like to know what people feel are the strongest qualities of the Max Payne 2 story. Is it the narration? The characterization? The pacing?
It isn't uncommon to hear how the story in Max Payne 2 is a great example of storytelling (as in the blurb on Slashdot), but I'd like to know just what it has that, say, Silent Hill 2 didn't have. Or Metal Gear Solid. Or Wasteland. Or even Resident Evil 2.
Thanks in advance.
Curmudgeon Gamer: Not happy
dead arabs r cool
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Poor tech staff. Let's see here, I've tried to reload the page three times, so that's four emails from me alone...multiply that by maybe 100,000 slashdot users...
Man, I know that the web server takes a bad enough beating, but I never knew we could slashdot the mailserver also!
I've been playing The Temple of Elemental Evil from Troika games. It boasts the latest D&D rules and... well... not much else.
After playing it through, I was very disappointed. The story was damn near absent. Your ultimate goal is reflected in the title; good-aligned characters will expect to destroy the aforementioned temple, while evil-aligned will take it over. I've no idea what would be expected of a neutral party, but the point is, there is only a thin back-story to motivate the player. A couple dozen side-quests fail flesh things out. I keep thinking of the D&D based games from Black Isle, especially Baldur's Gate II and the elaborate stories involved. To add insult to injury, the (five year old?) Infinity engine is superior in every way to the one used in ToEE, except for the number of officially supported screen resolutions (but that's another rant).
The game starts you off with hints of nearby bandits who, once dealt with, will unlock the pirate city adjacent to the Temple itself. That's the extent of the story progression. Once the temple is revealed, the player goes progressively deeper in until a final battle is reached. That's it. None of the prophecy-driven complexities of Morrowind or the episodic progression of NeverWinter Nights. One of the things I like about RPGs over FPSs is the story. Every NPC in Baldur's Gate II has a number of his/her own side-quests. Your character in Morrowind can run straight through the basic prophecy-based quests, or spend some time moving up through the various guilds and their elaborate quests. NeverWinter Nights has a pretty linear storyline, but it is a storyline, and side-kick side quests can add to it...
The bottom line: pretty 3D graphics or elaborate spell-effects can enhance a good game, but when the story is just there to justify rampaging through the levels, well, my copy of Doom 2 is already paid for and I don't need another new fscking video card to play it...
"I'm a scientist! I don't think, I observe!" - Dr. Clayton Forrester
Now THAT was a good story line for a video game, back in the good-ole-days when text was good enough for us, on a single-digit mhz 8bit.
---- Booth was a patriot ----
Sam Lake: On Video-Game Storytelling
By: Andrey Summers
Posted: 04/25/2004
Photography by: Courtesy of Sam Lake
What makes for a great story in a video game Sometimes, with all the innovative development and cool graphics the actual story a game has to tell can get lost in the shuffle, or at least can seem to be an afterthought. When a game arrives on the shelves that presents one of the more engrossing stories we've seen in awhile, it's worth noting. Max Payne 2: The Fall of Max Payne has been recognized by many people with their heads screwed on straight as a benchmark in video-game storytelling. The 2003 sequel to the legendary Max Payne, this game exhibited a narrative depth that many contemporary offerings tend to lack. Max 2's engaging story was made rich by polished, articulate lines such as...
"There are no choices. Nothing but a straight line. The illusion comes afterwards, when you ask 'why me?' and 'what if?' when you look back, see the braches, like a pruned bonsai tree, or a forked lightning. If you had done something differently, it wouldn't be you, it would be someone else looking back, asking a different set of questions."
"All this time we got the fable of sleeping beauty wrong. The prince doesn't kiss her to wake her up. No one who has slept for a hundred years is likely to wake up. It was the other way around. He kisses her to wake himself up, from the nightmare that has brought him there."
"I was compelled to give [him] his gun back, one bullet at a time."
Of course, it isn't always necessary for a game to have a well-written story to be enjoyable, but as technology advances, the possibilities for immersion in the world you see on screen increase also.
With these ideas in mind, I decided to ask Sam Lake, the writer at videogame developers Remedy, to shed some light on where the profession stands today, and how a game like Max Payne, or its sequel comes to exist. And Sam should know all about that- he wrote them both.
Writing is an area often underappreciated in videogames. How did you get into it?
I was asked, simple as that. Petri Järvilehto, one of the founding members of Remedy, is a long time friend of mine. They were working on Remedy's first game, Death Rally, and needed someone to write the texts for the game. Petri knew of my writing, and asked me. I was studying at university at the time. I was very excited to get any kind of a writing gig. Now, almost nine years later, I'm still at it, so it turned out to be a long term one.
The script for Max 2 was about four times as large as some movie scripts. What drives you to take on such complicated projects, as a writer?
In my case, it was a clear process of evolution. Death Rally was just few pages of text, whereas the first Max Payne game already had a script longer than an average movie. We wanted to create a more ambitious story for the sequel, to flesh out the characters, and to add detail and content in general, so it was quite natural that the screenplay ended up being considerably longer as well. I wouldn't be surprised if the script of our next project would be longer still. The amount of detail in games is growing all the time.
In movies, it's generally thought that one page of script equals one minute of action on the screen. In a game with a movie-like story like Max, it's already getting very close to that. Games just tend to be a lot longer than movies, so it's more like writing an entire TV-series when you are writing a game.
I once tried writing for an Unreal Mod, and it all went to hell when they tried to make me design their levels for them. How is the line drawn between designer and writer, and how can the two roles co-exist productively, if at all?
Actually, early on in the development of Max Payne, I was drawing maps of the levels on paper as well. I'm glad we got past that quickly.
I feel that the designer and the writer need to do more than just co-exist. They need to co-operate very actively and w
In Deus Ex, there was an enormous and greatly interwoven plot, but much of it is easily overlooked depending on how you play. Someone who approached the game as a action shooter could easily miss a lot of the subtlety, but fully exploring the world could lead to 80+ hour games, which some complained as being too long. Max Payne was linear and blunt, but pretty much everyone got the same thing out of it. Vice City had more freedom, but the story was really just more of a framing of the situation than something that really mattered. I disagree with the notions that freedom and story are mutually exclusive, but a game with great freedom has a much harder time of forcing a storyline on a player who doesn't really care.
> What's it about?
Download the 80min presentation for USC Cinema-Television. Many of the concepts for the project are detailed in that seminar audio. This is an anti-violent project dedicated at tackling some pretty difficult content, from the perspective of an outcast.
> "Doom for Columbine" doesn't immediately strike me as an appropriate name.
I think it fits, as the project is about Columbine and the project is dedicated to the victims.
The dangers of knowledge trigger emotional distress in human beings.
OMG. What an asskissfest. 'Do you think video games are an art form?'
Why doesn't he just suck the guys cock and get it over with.
And what was that about the interviewer was writing for a UT mod ? Why doesn't he just go ahead and plug the mod and also talk about his dog for awhile. Because, after all, I am reading the interview to find out about the interviewer. If Commander Taco thinks that these people have 'their heads screwed on straight' then I believe that all reviews/writing about video games suck.
Nothing has ever given me the feeling that I am a marketing demographic for scumbags as much as seeing all of the "Tanya" level movies in the Command and Conquer series from Westwood.
No, I don't think that video games are art. Instead I believe that they are much more akin to 'The Twenty, entertainment ignited!' which shows at crappy movie theaters here.
My favorite example was Interstate 76 from back in 1997. Original soundtrack, game engine style cutscenes, fleshed out characters, even poetry. That game is a classic example of doing everything right.
Shame Activision shat on the sequel products with poor development and support.
-Z
There's definitely a long way to go with most games, though. We give games a lot more credit, because gameplay is more important than the actual story. Dialogue and plotlines in the best games still tend to be overblown and cartoonish. Lines of dialogue that would be absolute groaners in a movie, characters that are basically stereotypes with no genuine, or with at best forced development. Maybe it's just the nature of the beast because, like B-movies and syndicated action shows, games are meant for the world market and have to be easily translated into dozens of languages, but I still think there's a lot of room to grow. Games are such an immersive medium, and since the interactivity allows for multiple paths and story arcs, that if games realize their potential in telling a story with characters you really, truly care about, who go through fully realized arcs that are determined by the lead character's actions, and if the dialogue could be made to sound natural rather than emulating genre movies... That would revolutionize entertainment as we know it.
I guess we'll get there in due time, it took the cinema a while to make a truly great film. One way to get there though may be if the game industry would hire more authors and screenwriters to script the games, or to at least assist designers who may be more concerned with the actual programming and gameplay.
> That poster's a troll. He attempts to plug his own 0% complete Doom mod in every topic relating to FPS or violent games.
This is simply untrue.
The dangers of knowledge trigger emotional distress in human beings.
I'm in research and development at a well-known video game company,
Let me guess...Nintendo?!
Man I've been screaming this for a while. Ico was amazing - everyone should buy a Playstation 2 and a copy of Ico. There is almost a complete lack of dialog, except for a few sentences. The main characters don't even speak the same language.
It's a pretty game. It has a good story. And it's simple. Very much fun.
No sig for you. YOU GET NO SIG!
IMHO the SNES was the ultimate RPG machine. The graphics were top notch for their time. Final Fantasy 2 and 3, Breath of Fire, Chrono Trigger ...
Here's a better question: do games with great story lines have less replayability? So, sure, a game could have a great 40 hours of exciting, twisting, whodunit-esque, edge-of-your-seat, nail-biting plot, but after you finish it, then what?
I guess you could just slap on enough functionality to make it a networked multiplayer game and solve the replayability problem that way.
"Don't mind me cutting myself on Occam's Razor"
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:)
I got so involved in the technological aspects of the article's presentation that I missed its storyline
Deus Ex, absolutely. Deus Ex was one of those games I bought expecting a standard Unreal-tech shooter of the time.
Spoilers. It even started out boring. You're just an agent. The only hint of a unique focus on backstory is the conversation with the NSF leader in the statue, who rattles on with historical taxation statistics.
But once you finish the statue mission and enter UNATCO HQ, you start meeting the characters, start getting hints of something greater. By the time you're out of New York and Paul has turned to the side of the NSF, you've tapped into these greater realities woven into the game, and eventually you're flying to Hong Kong, infiltrating VersaLife, destroying a nanotech constructor, and so forth.
The game starts out as a standard "agent" game with some interesting takes on aiming and skill systems, and ends up as a vast conspiracy game with Illuminati, Knights Templar churches, and weird alien laboratories. Not to mention Area 51.
One of those games that "feels" completely different by the time you reach the end, like it's a whole new game instead of what it was when you bought it. I really enjoy games like that.
Nuff said.
But let me elaborate anyway. What makes a story good? Forshadowing, suprises, interesting plot, character development... CT has all those. But what really makes a good story great is highly empathic characters. That's the critical component.
-73, de n1ywb
www.n1ywb.com
> I suppose I demonstrated that. ;-)
Well, we've been flamed and trolled for quite some time. We get lots of "0% content" trolls, and lots of "obscene" trolls... but our hearts are in the right place. If you happen to listen to that presentation, let me know what you think!
The dangers of knowledge trigger emotional distress in human beings.
On a side note: anyone else notice the resemblance between Max Payne story author Sam Lake, and Mr. Needs a Maalox himself?
Uh, the skin textures in Max Payne were taken from photos of random members of their development team. Even Max himself was just some game artist plopped before a camera.
(For the sequel, they hired actors. But the main characters still had to resemble the guys from the original game)
That's because our favourite tight-arsed metaphor-ridden bullet-time badass actually had a photo of Sam Lake's face projected on.
No coincidence - it was entirely deliberate.
"If being a geek means being passionate about something, then I pity those who aren't geeks." - Pike65
Bungie's Macintosh masterpiece from the mid 1990's.
The story was deep, multi-threaded, and enjoyable to discover via the game. The DOS-boys were just shooting/killing with Doom, but those of us blessed to drive a Mac were really getting into a fine storyline while were participated in wholesale slaughter. Yeah, we even did it with one-button mice!
Huge, well researched websites exist just to study the *storyline* of the original game.
If you want the two page "Cliffs Notes" version, it is here, though it pales in comparison to the actual multi-threaded reality (or is it fantasy?) =)
True, my biggest problem with long story-based games is once it's over the disc tends to get consigned to the archives and the game deleted from the hard drive. A few exceptions were the original Deus Ex, which you could still go through and try some of the alternate paths and Neverwinter Nights which has plenty of expansions and fan-made modules that are quite good. But even that doesn't last very long and I don't tend to replay modules unless it has multiplayer support and can get some friends to play through it.
This was likely a troll, but I will answer it as if you were being serious.
> Yeah, because we all know that having one singular borglike corporate vision leads to all sorts of creative innovation.
How did you arrive at that conclusion?
> So, maybe it's not a systemic problem. But if use the word systemic will the slashdot mods mark me insightful ?
But it is a systemic problem because video game design is still very young and correct systems have not been implemented to transfer between style, design and theory, from paper to video or 3d animation. Plenty of hours still need to be spent working on teamwork. Plus with some new systems in place that adapt to technology trends, we're one step closer. Not there yet, however.
The dangers of knowledge trigger emotional distress in human beings.
More than anything else, it's the atmosphere. IMO, the Max Payne games are the only solid examples of noir storytelling in videogame form.
As for what exactly is noir: "Dead giveaways of this genre are: narration in the first person, the loneliness of the hero (or more rarely, heroine) with no hope of redemption; a stubborn adherence to a code of honor in the face of depravity and evil (although noir is never condescendingly preachy); deadpan one-liners and morbid/stoic philosophy, usually delivered in a terse manner after violence or betrayal.[..]Noir has in recent years been succesfully blended with other genres and media, such as anime, fantasy, science fiction and computer games (e.g. Blade Runner, the Max Payne games and The Dresden Files). Also called hardboiled detective fiction." (from a copy of my post to another forum).
Noir is exemplified in the writings of Raymond Chandler and Dashiell Hammett. It's a hard to define, and demanding genre, with literary fans. See also here for more definitions and related resources.
"We don't stop playing games because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing games.."
First of all most gamers are leaning away from stories. They just want realistic graphics and realistic destruction. Sure on 8-bit systems all we had were pixles.. but we cared about those pixles. We wanted to know who they were and their motivations. Japan is the only reason stories aren't entirely dead because somehow over there they still care.
That said Nintendo is notorious for good story lines. Shall I drop a few names for you like Metroid, The Legend of Zelda, Super Mario Bros., Earthbound. Laugh as you may at SMB but outside of Mario Bros, and Super Mario Bros. 1 The main series has more plot than a lot of games out there now. Heck the character design of Mario Bros is award winning quality in and of itself.
Now storyline isn't everything. After it's a game we're playing. Not a movie. This was the mistake with Enter the Matrix. The finished product is more of an interactive Matrix Movie than a game based on a movie.
Gotta close with the greatest story line EVER. Also quite possibly the greatest game ever.
The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time
Don't sleep on it.
-- The Wolfkin
I hate save points. I'm disliking it more that they're showing up in computer titles, though mainly just the ones that are also on consoles. Prince of Persia has me at a real frustrating spot where I keep getting caught in a trap between save points and FarCry can be real annoying at time when not only are checkpoints not marked but by the time I reach one I'm near dead and have to fight a whole army right away. Yeah, loading a game with near no health to just die again and again is real fun, ain't it people?
One of the reasons I like playing my old SNES games on a PC emulator more than on my old SNES is because it lets me save anywhere and anytime I wish.
What I don't have a problem with it what was done in the first Aliens vs Predator and second Hitman games where you had a limited number of saves per level. In AvP the greater the difficulty the fewer save slots you were allowed.
Now that game had a story line...bang as many as you can!
Got Code?
Specifically in RPGs. I loved the old NES games- Dragon Warrior and Final Fantasy (the FIRST ONE), because they had plot- but not really any story to speak of. They were fun, as any personality the characters had existed solely in my own mind. As technology and capacity advanced, RPGs changed from being open-ended objective-based games into interactive novels, and are, in my opinion, the worse for it. Largely because interactive novels like FF7 and FF8 are being marketed as RPGs. Bit of an annoyance, especially when you're locked into a mildly decent story focusing on characters you don't like dealing with emotional problems you got over years ago. Flexibility of armor and weapons - one of the fun points of earlier RPGs- got flushed right out of Square games, leaving Diablo and the DnD games to fill in that gap in the market.
:-(
:P
A bad story, a story that forces itself onto the player, or a story with characters that are annoying (like the frog in chrono trigger. GAH.) are largely why I've dropped console RPGs in favor of games like Kingdom of Loathing and (as much as I hate to say it) Baldur's Gate / Icewind Dale. The things I liked about the OLD console RPGs are things that Enix and Square seem to have totally lost sight of.
Personally, the story needs to be a backdrop and little more, or so finely tuned that you can easily immerse yourself into it while retaining the flexibility and free-form approach that old console games had- the first Metal Gear Solid is a good example of this, though it's kind of meh in the replay department.
Personally, if I want a story, I'll read comics or pick up a novel... but when I'm in the mood for a game, I'm in the mood for a GAME, not paging through some spiky haired adolescent brat whining about his life through cut scene after cut scene after cut scene.
The story complements gameplay. Your post suggests that Story is telling Gameplay that it has a nice hat :P
The Max Payne writing drew heavily upon the books and style of Raymond Chandler. The witty retorts, the overlly elaborate metaphors, the dark ambience and emotionally wounded characters etc, etc.
It concerns me that this isn't acknowledged in any way. I enjoyed the game, but I knew when I played it, that I was playing a tribute to a great author.
Chandler deserves the credit for the style.
Si tacuisses philosophus mansisses. If you had kept quiet, you would have remained a philosopher.
I am a game programmer right now, and some of the game designers I've worked with were obsessed with the frikin' story. So much so that they were terrified by any kind of freeplay, they wanted to control every event and sequence of events in the game. In other words they didn't have a clue about game design. Many game designere aspire to be film producers or do something cinematic, they should get the hell off of game teams and go do it instead of inflicting their ego on game buyers and game companies. It's not about the story stupid, it's about the game. Story is fine so long as it isn't rigid and doesn't get in the way of making a great game.
When I compare storylines I usually compare the game to: Dues Ex, Metal Gear Solid, and Final Fantasy VII. If anyone is into storyline in game these are a must play.
Creative Demolition
The storyline starts out simply enough: As one of the descendents of a lost human expedition, marooned on a distant planet for generations, your return home is a shock for both sides. Earth along with dozens of other planets has been enslaved by an advancing alien empire bent on galactic domination. They're clever, powerful, and allied with all the right (or wrong) folks.
Thrown into the mix is a third player, the subjugated workers of the master alien race, who spun off and are now committed to simple extermination. Their story is compelling, a tragic tale of conquest, psychic enslavement, triumph, and resolution: Races other than their own cannot be trusted, and must be 'cleansed'.
Some of the other races are positively fascinating, particularly the pyrophilic fungus with the capability to consciously modify its genetic makeup.
As the story progresses, you learn of the interdimensional meddlings of a mysterious race that has apparently had occasional contact with humans for thousands of years. They are aloof but benevolent, referring to themselves as being from "above", and warn you about dealing with the other interdimensionals from "below". But guess whose participation is necessary to win the game!
There are even occasional encounters with space probes, misprogrammed so that they identify every object as a potential source of raw material for replication. This includes you and your ship, so prepare to be broken down into your component elements. Combat is fast-paced and easy to learn, but every ship has its strengths and weaknesses.
The music in the game plays a part in making it so enjoyable, too. While most games of the time were using cheesy FM synthesized music with occasional wave effects, Star Control 2's soundtrack is 4-channel MOD files, written by a variety of composers from around the world. This bloated the game onto a massive 4 floppies, but anyone who's played it will tell you the few minutes spent copying the files to the hard drive was well worth the effort. Each race has its own music that comes up during a conversation, and the pieces are incredibly well chosen. Trusty allies sound noble, despicable foes sound menacing. The weird fungus music is eerie but pleasant to listen to, and downright funky in parts.
There are moments of hilarity, sex, confusion, negotiation, sympathy, and plenty of downright evil. All in all, Star Control 2 has far and away the most engaging and moving storyline of any game I've played. I think that might be because it was designed by two incredibly dedicated guys who wouldn't settle for anything less than excellence. When management wanted to release the game as a shootemup with a bit of storyline, Fred and Paul took an unauthorized jaunt to Alaska and returned with a nearly finished version of the game we now know and love.
The best part is that while the name "star control" is s
There is definitely a correlation, and as in cinema, there is room for both.
Is UT2k4 inferior to Max Payne II because it has no plot or compelling story? Not really, they serve different purposes. UT falls under the "Arcade Game Instant Gratification" category, and does it well.
Sometimes I want to watch a "Schindler's List" with an engaging and thought provoking plot that makes me question my views of humanity, and sometimes I'm in the mood for a "Star Wars" with a simplistic plot, bad acting, and kick ass SFX.
It good to see Games maturing as an art form, and I appreciate a well written game as much as the next guy, but a well designed multiplayer fps is no less rewarding.
Marathon 1 and 2 had the best storylines I've ever seen in a game, and I've played a lot of games. Durandal's rampancy was particularly good. Marathon Infinity's storyline was disjointed and too screwy to enjoy it. That one was by far my least favorite of the trilogy. But Marathon had so much too it, and it was a fun fps for the day to boot. I really got into those games, and even got partway through my own sequel using Forge and Anvil, their map/physics/graphics creation tools.
Another excellent one was American McGee's Alice. There wasn't a whole lot of story, but it has to be one of the most masterfully done games I have ever played. Creepy, atmospheric, and riveting. I can't wait for their Oz game to come out.
Another storytelling masterpiece from Bungie, much like Marathon. That game gives you a feeling of depression in the first few levels, like you're actually one of the soldiers faced with the bleak knowlege that you can't stop the Fallen from wiping out civilization. The levels were well designed. An all around great game with a really engrossing story. The second one was good, but not quite as good as the first. The third one was a pungent pile of shit, but Bungie didn't make it. Screw Mumbo Jumbo for wrecking that game.
Let us not forget our roots; the battle of @ against &.
An epic story of the struggle between good and evil.
biopowered.co.uk - catalytically cracking triglycerides for home automotive use since 2008. Just say no to big oil!
Enchanter
Zork
System Shock
Myst
Marathon series
ZPC (post-apocalyptic messiah as zombie-killer. the best.)
Resident's Bay Day on the Midway
Unreal + Return to Na Pali
Max Payne
Unreal 2
So you never reread books?
I had replayed Grim Fandango purely in the way I would rewatch a movie.
Sam and Max, Monkey Island, Half-Life, FFVII...
Now, I'm not saying that there shouldn't be any story in a game, far from it, I like stories in games, but the most memorable story is the one that you create by yourself while playing the game.
For example, in Deus Ex, which had its own great story, I created my own story by the way I played it. The first time I played through, I would knock out UNATCO agents, until it became more difficult and I started killing them. Then, in France, you actually meet the parents of a UNATCO agent, and the father gives you info you can use against them. If you keep bugging him he says something like: "I've helped you kill my own son, isn't that enough for you?" For the rest of that level I only used tranquilizer darts on the agents. Sometimes, I play through killing everybody, or only harming those who actually attack me.
This can be applied to other games in other ways, like when you grow attached to characters besides the main ones and use them all the time (RPG, strategy games), and even your style in a fighting game (say if you performed a particularly cool combo in a certain situation, or if you can use moves no one else does effectively). The more actions that a game allows you to use to overcome its obstacles, the more you can tell your own story in the game. Thus while there's a larger more linear story going one, you define your own little story by the way you play. The more (effective) actions you have at your disposal, the more "nuanced" the player-created "story" is.
Story is great, but great gameplay allows those who don't like the story (because it's bad or just not to their taste) to enjoy themselves anyway. Focussing on gameplay before story will still result in beter sales.
"But I trust in the people's capacity for reflection, rage and rebellion." -Oscar Olivera
who burst out laughing at this line in the game.
"The illusion comes afterwards, when you ask 'why me?' and 'what if?' when you look back, see the braches, like a pruned bonsai tree, or a forked lightning. "
MP2 was cinematic, but not well written by any stretch.
Gamers Europe - Gaming News. Reviews.
Ok, call be a bit out of the loop for not having heard about this earlier, but for the past while I keep hearing this game being brought up... but when I try to find it I keep seeing it as out of print. Anyone know a place I can get this (and other out of print) title?
...those games which are based entirely on storytelling. Understandable, since they're mostly only available in Japan, but any game wanting to really have one of the best stories ever needs to compare itself with the likes of Serial Experiments Lain, Kana Little Sister, Tsukihime etc.
ebay
If I hear a game doesn't let players save whenever and wherever they want to, I simply refuse to buy it, period.
The player should be able to save their progress wherever they're at, and the game itself should be difficult/easy/well designed enough to make that issue irrelevant.
Or, at least, players should have a choice of which way they want to go. Take Wizardry 8, for instance. They have a regular mode which lets you save your games, and then they also have the "iron man" mode which is more restrictive. Why can't players have a choice?
And I've never heard of cheating being defined as restarting from one's last save game when approaching a big boss.
--- Grow a pair, liberals... stop letting the Republicans bully you!
I actually was surprised that Starcraft (a bit less so about NOLF) wasn't mentioned as a definite benchmark in storytelling. I mean, talk about a story that drew you in and actually made you care about the characters in a RTS game no less! I still remember the chills I got from Tassadar sacrificing himself to destroy the overmind....and the mixed feelings about the metamorphosis of Kerrigan. I simply HAD to complete each level to move the story forward...combined with each scenario making sense within the story. I thought it was absolute brilliance.
More recently, I played NOLF (1 and 2) and found the story campy, cheesey, and downright fun. I was speculating the entire time (moreso in the first one) about what would happen in the end. It was a game I simply HAD to beat no matter what just to find out who the traitor was. The sequel wasn't quite as compelling to me, but still a pretty fun romp with a story tying things together.
But overall, if I had to pick my benchmark in gaming storytelling, there is no doubts that Starcraft goes to the top of the list. Has anyone else found a game where you develop as strong of an emotional bond to a group of characters as with the likes of Raynor, Kerrigan, Tassadar, and even Mensk?
-- If you can't laugh at yourself, someone else will do it for you.
Here is the straight dope, from IMDB:
Max Payne was modeled after the writer of the game Sam Lake. Sam Lake also dressed up and played the part of Max Payne for the graphic novel cut scenes that are shown through out the game.
free online diet tracking.
I hate save points. I'm disliking it more that they're showing up in computer titles, though mainly just the ones that are also on consoles.
I think one of the reasons for this is that on a computer you can generally circumvent the limitation, anyway. I've been playing the old Risk II for Windows recently, and you have no ability to have multiple saves/go back during the (16-round!) tournament. You can leave and come back to the same turn, but no 'save games'. And if you lose you start the fuck over. So I wrote a batch file that backs up the save game files, and all was lovely.
Its funny sure, but its an old joke, too. Are you being sarcastic with or do you really think this is less stale than "all your base belong to us?" Damn, your making me feel really old!
i've played a ton of games that basically have the following story line:
you're a [tough dude|hot chick] taking on thousands of enemies with innovative AI. along the way you get help from a [hot chick|tough dude]. high school [dialogue|relationship] follows. at one point you're stripped of all your weapons, thrown into a [pit|prison] and have to fight your way out with just your [fists|crowbar|good looks]. you get better weapons. your press buttons that open doors. finally you meet the boss and kill him. you win!
throw in a bunch of eye candy and you've got yourself a winner!
in this age of communication i'm just not getting through
> Many books have been written then adapted to screen without the author giving thought to the limitations of the movie effects at the time.
You raise an interesting point. The problem, however, is that film and novella are quite similar. They take place, event after event, scene after scene, chapter after chapter; the crux of video game design is usability, which never enters the realm of film.
The dangers of knowledge trigger emotional distress in human beings.
You know what other joke is really old.
*farts*
Vagrant Story. That has to be one of the best story lines I have ever seen in a video game. Of course, the biggest problem was that it had a difficult to master battle engine and it didn't take much to get disoriented and lost in the world. However, the game had awesome camera work and dialogue when it came to the cutscenes. Even the music was awesome. But I would have to say the story was central to the game. I mean, it's in the title!
You're an independent agent of the Riskbreakers without a memory. The guy you are chasing slowly unlocks and untangles your memories. Soon enough, you wonder if you are even chasing the right guy. There are huge political schemes of which your only a pawn. Flashbacks and strange telepathic conversations guide you. I was totally blown away. If it weren't for that damn battle engine and poor level design I would play this game over and over again.
Another game I recommend for story is Xenogears. The problem is that when you get to the 2nd disk, they run out of game and it becomes a book. Seriously, the main characters sit down in a chair and just tell you the story. I had no problem with this as I was already deeply hooked in the story but I can see why others would not like this. It's bad enough to have a linear game but when the game decides it won't even let you move... ugh. I suppose the developers just ran out of time and couldn't complete the final areas of the game and just put the story in.
What is the story for Pacman ... or LodeRunner ? They are still lots of fun ...
I always liked the way the story unfolded in Metroid Prime. The essence of the game is in exploring your surroundings, and in doing so, you got little pieces of the plot unveiled to you (eg. Chozo Lore, Pirate Data). It gives the game a bit more background and a bit more scale. Apart from the dramatic opening sequence (very reminiscent of Super Metroid's first few minutes), I have particularly fond memories of a few certain Pirate Data entries late in the game that are intentionally very subtle but nonetheless scary as hell. In fact, when you know this twist in the plot in coming, and play through the game again, the rest of the story takes on new meanings. It's a very clever plot device and adds greatly to the game's atmosphere and replay value (not that it needs any more of either).
Attack its weak point for massive damage!
You're obviously referring to Deus Ex: Invisible War, as you couldn't really choose a side in the first Deus Ex until the very end of the game.
as for the spoiler warning, the reason you could change sides as much as you wanted was that every side was the same side... it was choice wihtout choice, which was one of the main themes of the first game
I personally think that the first DX was one of the most literary games available. As for the second game, it's main flaw was that it didn't keep that same level of excellance and was far from exceeding it. Perhaps Specter should have been more involved
Max Paine is just a rip-off of Marvel Comics's
Punisher/Daredevil, right down to the screwed-up mafia babe.
Final Fantasy 10 is where the art of story telling really shines, especially the story of Yuna and Tidus.
Simple and concise. Mario is all about the game play. Timing your running, jumping, fireball shooting, etc.
Those Japanese Role playing games like FF bore me. They drag on and on about some stupid story. The game play involves walking around this boring ass vast map and when it comes time to fight you have to sit through the same graphics sequences every time you do a special move. B o r i n g.
Conserve Oil, Recycle, Boycott Walmart
"games like Tomb Raider held my attention much longer than some basic arcade style game."
And in addition to holding attention, how about games that could get you so creeped out and pull you in so far that you would literally jump in your chair?
Marathon was like that. Late night sessions in a dark room. The shadowy cramped hallways. Turn a corner as you stumble along and suddenly the Motion Detector would light up like a Vegas marquis....
And per the article topic, the story line unfolded beautifully as well. Better in my opinion than any other I've ever played.
Damn, Bungie did some great stuff before they sold out.
And yes it sucks. The storyline feels irrelevant.
Granted Deus Ex did force you into picking sides, but it was at the benefit of allowing the story to make it relevant and captivating.
> But more generously, can't you look at the "troll" label in a positive way?
I can see why you might suggest this; you are trolling for comments yourself, and I think it's in bad taste to do so. Picking fights never has any positive effect. Why don't you listen to what I've said in the seminar with USC Cinema-Television and get back to me? See if you have the same impression of the project after you have grounded yourself in the subject matter a little better.
I will say this much; I've done my time in the mod community since the mid nineties, and I intend to create DFC because I think it's a compelling subject that deserves attention; and I think I can make a fun, interesting game out of it using the Doom 3 engine. What's wrong with that?
The dangers of knowledge trigger emotional distress in human beings.
Max Payne 2: The Fall of Max Payne has been recognized by many people with their heads screwed on straight as a benchmark in video-game storytelling.
Yegads! I had fun playing the game, but a collection of tired old pulp cliches will never do as a benchmark in storytelling. The art direction of the comics panels was nice, but personally, I couldn't wait for Max to shut up so that I could play. And the link between all my bullet timing and some thin excuse for a story? Not to bash your favorite game, but a Slim Jim ain't filet mignon.
No, storytelling is such a complex art that cut scenes sandwiched between action shoot-outs can only begin to approach doing it well. Compared to, say, a Neil Gaiman or Alan Moore comic, the average video or computer game is pathetically half-baked: it's the sketch or the crudest outline of a possible idea for a part of a story. Populated by cardboard. Running on a very narrow and linear rail. And more often an annoying gesture used for branding rather than for crafting a world that engages and compels.
But the brilliant exception to this action game dullness is any great RPG. The alchemy that occurs between avatar and player is already a much deeper thing than ever can happen in a shooter. Take Morrowind or Gothic II: here are games teeming with many small interesting narratives whose pieces form a huge, satisfying whole *around* your avatar, which is already invested with so much of your enjoyable developmental sweat.
Do you believe that technological advancement and deepening immersion of players into games will decrease the role writing plays, or bolster it?
We are still quite far from portraying subtle human emotions in games. We are taking baby steps to that direction, but its slow going. As we get closer to that, closer to the skin as it were, the need for good writing will increase.
I agree that it SHOULD increase but for at least the medium term, I think there is so much obsession with technology in graphical games that story and writing will NOT improve for the forseeable future.
If you want rich stories (and role playing, for that matter), look to text MMORPGs and MUDs.
If you want great action and beautiful vistas, stick with graphical games.
Max Payne 2's story was good for an action game but pathetic for almost any other medium.
-Michael
Threshold RPG
http://www.kiteretsu.jp/on/tontie/
The story: You have to hit little one-eyed gremlins with a hammer for some reason.
"Storyline in games" is a figment in the girly imagination of gaming-press assclowns like Sam Lake and Wagner James Au. Commercial games are sucking so bad because companies actually listen to these fanboy-sissies.
Clear thinkers like EYEMAZE have shown that gameplay and story line are not friends.
For further reference, see everything on oldmanmurry.com, even though it's old.
Google confirms: Ruby is the world's most beloved programm
it's main flaw
It's "its", not "it's".
excellance
"excellence".
They never miss a revenue stream.
"Save The Last Human Family." (imho)
Sorry to disappoint, but Samir Gupta is a troll from way back. Check his post history. He has claimed, at various times, to be high up in both Nintendo and Sega. He claims to have a PhD to give an air of credibility to his posts. If you want to look at some real cutting edge research into interactive stories, check out InteractiveStory.net. The website isn't that impressive but seeing it in action is amazing. I hope they remember to release it as a free download like they claim they will.
main(c,r){for(r=32;r;) printf(++c>31?c=!r--,"\n":c<r?" ":~c&r?" `":" #");}
Max Payne's storyline does not improve the gameplay. In fact, it just hides the gameplay's shortcomings. If Max Payne is played without the music and the narrative parts, it is incredibly linear.
What a good storyline does is to enhance the atmosphere of the game. With Max Payne narrating, one can come in touch with his internal feelings, and then his quest becomes your quest (much more).
Wow, they did a really good job in the first game making Max look like this guy. If I saw Sam Lake walking down the street I'd sure do a double take. Especially if he was wearing a long black coat and scowling.
main(c,r){for(r=32;r;) printf(++c>31?c=!r--,"\n":c<r?" ":~c&r?" `":" #");}
How come nobody mentioned the Phantasy Star games? Phantasy Star 1 and 2 were pinnacles of storytelling for their day. 2, which came out in 1989, has a far better plot than many of the games coming out even today. The games all took place in the same universe, so you'd see recurring characters and places. The first game (from 1988) starred one of the best female characters in the history of games, a powerful warrior that's the opposite of modern day's sex symbol girls. The games also explored themes of planetary travel and the evils of technology and the problems when you rely too much on technology during a time when RPGs were about saving the princess in a medieval world. Phantasy Star 2 has the greatest ending ever in a game, I think.
Also, Xenogears has a powerful and gripping story, with more plot twists than you can shake a stick at... it's truly epic, going back from the beginning of the game world's time to the present.
Arc the Lad 2 is another story that throws tons of different themes and characters at you in a riveting way. It's a shame the ending is so depressing.
Half Life having a good story? Oh, please! Monsters escaping from a lab, you're the only survivor, fight to survive... it's the same thing we've seen in every other FPS known to man (and the game ain't anything too special either) The Max Payne games also reek of cheesiness with their story... they're way too overdone. I know they were trying to go for an old 50's noir style, but the game takes it WAY too far to the point it's laughable.
With one of greatest multiverses created EVER. The way the world is organised is something absolutely awesome. Multiple plains, each with its own alignments, rules and creatures.
The hordes of lawful evil and chaotic evil demons fighting between themselves...
The intelectual brothel where you can only talk...
Chaotic worlds that are shapen by the beliefs of people living there. You lose the belief in the existance of this world, and it ceases to exist...
Lawful creatures only driven by logic and having no feelings...
And your immortal self finding pieces of your past lives. The lovers you have hurt. The people you have betrayed. The traps and puzzles you had left for yourself to find...
I could go on and on. I haven't seen any other fantasy game with world having 1/10 the depth of Torment... The closest thing I've seen (judging by depth of story and world) is Exile series by Spider Web software.
--Coder
I am pleased you listened to the presentation, but I also think your review is biased, as you hated the project before you listened to the presentation. You attack the sound quality, the file, the configuration... there is nothing you liked about it, right? Well the only way that could be true, is if you had some kind of preconceived notion of how to identify with it, in all your glory. ;-)
> How to obfuscate the fact you have almost nothing to say:
This whole post is formatted like a GNAA troll. Are you a member of GNAA? If not, you should consider framing your comments in a way that won't trigger flamebait responses.
Because I'm a good guy, I'll answer all of your comments, as if they aren't a troll.
The response from USC Cinema-Television was 100% positive. How do you explain that? Is it because my 80min presentation had no content? They admire the scope of the project and they admired the fact I was doing this, even against the grain of many, many people... because it's a project I believe in.
> I actually have great respect for the people who do projects along these lines (I admire Powerkill for example)- I simply have no belief that you are actually doing one!
What would it take to convince you?
> You post about DFC in the present tense, which is premature at best. This seems to be an attempt to give your public opinions more credibility, by creating the illusion of some firsthand experience.
I think most of it is in future tense, but I think I get your point. You are among the millions of movie goers and gamers who think that movies and video games happen overnight! My hats off to you and those like you. If it weren't for people like you, making games would be so boring!! My public opinions, on the other hand, are serious, and rooted in a lifelong experience in video game design. I posted information about my personal history in the first part of the recording, because I was asked to.
> I've been in the mod-scene too... and I've seen many over-ambitious projects that had such grand ideas that they obviously were never going to get off the ground.
What mods have you created or worked on? Or are you a player of mods? I've seen many over-ambitious projects too, and I have a great deal of experience with many of them. That's the beauty of it. When you get enough experience with failure, you can succeed because you learn where the land mines are and you step around them.
I have a team of people working on DFC right now. We have been working on it for over a year, to get it right. And the project has gone through many revisions, many shitstorms from casual gamers or the inflamed, and it all comes down to the simple fact that nobody can stop a free project, no matter how much they wish to (as long as it doesn't infringe trademarks like Aliens TC when they were foxed). You clearly appear to be one of the people who doesn't wish to see Doom for Columbine released, and you're welcome to that opinion, but it's sad when people try to hose a project before it sees the light. You have no business doing that.
> This seems to be an attempt to give your public opinions more credibility, by creating the illusion of some firsthand experience.
To you it seems like nothing more than a troll. That's your opinion, but wouldn't you like to see a serious project that combats school bullying and violence?
> Many, many people have had oddball game ideas that'll never come to anything. But much of them have the decency not to pretend do have accomplished something until they actually do.
What a totally ridiculous statement. I have not announced that I have accomplished anything. I have not misrepresented myself or this project, either.
> Id software has a philosophy: "When its done"- think about it sometime.
If you had actually thought about it, you wouldn't have used it in that sense. "When it's done" is a
The dangers of knowledge trigger emotional distress in human beings.
(sneaking one thief past the uber baddies to escape the elemental nodes works, but it still feels like cheating)
You can't actually complete the ending of the game in the way that would require assembling the Orb of Golden Death that way though, can you?
All that said, yes, you absolutely do slam into the level cap way ass early in that game, and the more thorough you are about exploring everything rather than cruising on as fast as you can, the worse it gets. If I ever decide to replay ToEE I'm going to build a party completely out of item crafters so there's something to do with all that overflow XP.
It's possible that my memories of the infinity engine are colored by how backassward awful 2nd edition AD&D now seems to me in retrospect. I definitely did enjoy those games at the time.
Some of the aboslute best story telling in a game. Excellent presenation, original, excellent acting. It's really hard to find fault with this game.
I can't believe no one has highly moderated a mention of KOTOR yet. This game had the coolest story I've seen in a long time... Not only was it an awesome RPG with great gameplay, but the story was actually one of the highlights of the game. As others have said on here, Lucas could learn a thing or two from that game.
Early video games were entirely play-driven, designed according to the model of traditional sports. They were largely repetitive, and the reward to the player was the satisfaction of mastering the game, reinforced by hi-score boards. In a game of this nature, the play itself must be highly absorbing and deep, yet with a smooth learning curve. This is an extremely difficult challenge to the designer. Most games of this era are long-forgotten, but the ones that succeeded remain cult favorites to this day.
As computers improved and memory became cheaper, there was a shift to novelty-driven games, where the reward to the player is seeing something new. Initially, this was new game "boards" offering different modes of play. This relieved some of the burden on the designer. The play itself did not need to be quite so absorbing, because the player would play each level only briefly before moving on to a new one.
However, this is still a very difficult design challenge, because the designer in effect must come up with multiple games. An easier approach was to offer a nugget of "story" as the reward to the player. With games capable of full-motion video, it is possible for the story to be highly absorbing and appealing. Now the story becomes dominant, and the role of the game play is to give the player the impression of being immersed in the story.
Unfortunately, it is not practical to truly make the player a meaningful participant in an absorbing story. To truly participate, the player's decisions must influence the background, but the amount of story that must be generated increases exponentially with each decision point. So the general solution is to force the decisions, or to make them illusory, so that instead of a branching decision tree most of the decisions funnel back into a small number of story channels.
Another problem is that in a suspenseful story, the satisfying "good" outcome is generally rather improbable, which means that few players are likely to see it, unless they play each major decision point over and over. But if you can play over and over until you get it right, there is no real suspense. One way to inject suspense is to organize the game so that the player has something at stake. This can be done by introducing "save points" which are far enough apart that the player has some investment in the outcome of each challenge.
The problem with save points is that it reintroduces the need for the game play itself to be deep and absorbing enough to be rewarding in itself, so that the player does not object to having to replay each sequence multiple times. This is a difficult design challenge, particularly when much of the game's budget is devoted to construction of story and scenery elements. The failure of game play is reflected in the demand of many players for "save anywhere" capability. This largely destroys player investment in the outcome of individual sequences, and makes it trivial for the player to manipulate the game to achieve the "best" outcome.
Modern players who are accustomed to this kind of game tend to be impatient with real challenge. Many current games therefore provide only the illusion of challenge. Game play offers spectacle, but the play itself is designed to be mostly trivially easy, giving the player a feeling of achievement without actually requiring him to master a difficult challenge. The problem for the designer then is that gamers then tend to blast through the game in a few hours and then complain that it is too short. This is dealt with in two ways: one approach is to introduce collection elements, in which the player must accumulate experience or items. This gives the player a feeling of achievement, and makes the player willing to tolerate game play that in itself is easy and repetitive. The other approach is to introduce a few choke points, typically bosses, with a significant play challenge.
Still, once in a while, a game manages to get the combination of elements right. The Max Payne games are a good example. The story pr
I've already moderated in this topic (actually, I downmodded Gupta's troll), so I'm posting anonymously.
The paper Gupta "borrows" from is actually a pretty interesting read. Had he just linked to it (rather than plagiarized it), I would have modded the comment +1 Interesting.
My friend got Harvest Moon -- A Wonderful Life for his gamecube. I have to admit, it is a pretty good story line. The scenario is basically that you have a farm in a small village. You grow crops and raise animals. Part of the story is that you find a wife, and raise a family.
Did you mount a military-grade, variable-focus MASER on an unlicensed artificial intelligence?
Remember Final Fantasy? You may not save except on the world map. You may be 90% through a dungeon, then, randomly, you meet some dragon with the capability to wipe your party out in seconds. Try again, hope for better luck. Maybe next game you'll fight a pair of them?