I remain unconvinced that joe uses a mac, my suspicion, (based on personal observation) is that mac users are neither average nor ordinary. [the relative merits of this I leave to your own personal prejudice] so I'm not sure we can take them as a meaningful control group.
I think you also over estimate the market when you suggest "business/corporate ppl [are]... becoming so frustrated with OS vulnerabilities that... [they] will soon be demanding better systems". I think that small businesses don't really understand the whole issue of computer security, and so they don't know how to apportion blame. Besides they have Micro$oft at home, they'll have it at work too.
Big business has a huge amount invested in their IT Infrastructure and so any change is going to cost a large sum of money, and if they make the wrong choice, someone loses their job. The old case of "no one got fired for buying IBM" is becoming true for microsoft. It may not be the best choice, but it's unlikely to get you fired.
...prevent a lot of problems and avoid others altogether by switching to a better designed system
very true, I'm not convinced that linux is that system yet, it solves many issues but then causes others. There is a lot to be said to the microsoft approach of treating your users as if they don't understand, and don't care. And then providing good documentation for those that seek it out.
my experience of linux is that documentation is either information overload, or nothing useful, and not much in between
I think we need a paradigm shift in computing with relation to security, comparable to that between command line and gui [ yes yes, I know real men use command lines, but most users aren't real men]. Unfortunately I don't know what that shift is, otherwise I'd be potentially very rich, but I don't think it's any of the current unix offspring.
requiring root access to install something, and not being able to install anything without the user's consent.
And what makes you think that joe user will do anything other than login as root.
As for User consent, most of the windows viruses out there at the moment require the user to run the.exe... "ooh a new task bar that stores my credit card info for me and its free?"...click click.
The biggest vulnerability in computers is the users. Just you see how secure your beloved OS (pick any OS here, not just linux) once you unlease the great general public on it.
No matter how well you idiot proof something, you can always find a better idiot.
Face it, if the major attraction of a platform for you is the pretty toolset then you're no great loss to the real programming world.
it is perhaps a sad fact that most of the poeple doing "real" programing are actually not that good at it, they are however good enough to get the job done.
granted it's not the best job, but it works
a lot of business is about just getting something that works, as much as we'd like to think it was about getting the best solution it really isn't.
so yes a lot of these "fake" programmers, like the pretty toolsets, and they get something that mostly works. And in less time than it would have taken them to go and get a "real" programming education.
Don't you know the secretary is supposed to be the administrator of a Windows server? If you are hiring additional staff to maintain Windows servers, you are doing something wrong.
I know parent is modded funny, but it's nearly true in a lot of small business situations. SBS server is very easy to set up, and will do most things you want without really understanding what its doing.
Can the same really be said for linux?
The sad truth is that most companies don't run on best, they run on cheapest. Oh and they will much rather spend the money on licences than staff, they actually get to own the licences (subject to terms and conditions. milage may vary), staff may wander.
The reason TCO of microsoft is lower than linux is that monkeys are cheaper, (and more plentiful) than penguins.
Microsoft... an infinite number of monkeys can't be wrong (now with free copy of complete works of shakespear)
Their little animated milk carton video for "Coffee and TV" by blur, was really good. I hadn't realised that was them. I knew I'd heard of them, but couldn't think of what they'd done.
doesn't eddy the ship board computer ask exactly the same question?
I know purists might argue that "think of a number" isn't really a question. However if they think that would have stopped Adam's they are quite mistaken.
I think actually it's like the question "Why is a raven like a writting desk?". Lewis Carroll didn't intend there to be an actual answer... but he found the readers' solution "...because Poe wrote on both." to be be true and funny.
BTW has anyone else noticed the similarity between "genuine people personalities" and everyones favourite windows application clippy the paperclip?
If you've read through "the salmon of doubt" you get a sense of just how difficult it's been to get this film made. Adam's was repeatedly told "there's no market for a funny sci-fi film". I don't recall his exact words on the success of "Men In Black", but you can feel the head bashing against a brick wall.
there is more film goodness here including what I think is a picture of marvin.
You know what? It just might work, after all Pete Jackson did a damn good job, and everyone thought he would suck.
Lets just all pray George Lucas doesn't walk near the studio. [shuddering at the thought of Ja-Ja Marvin]
you're begging the question by assuming that the low tech solution wins the contract.
An advantage of the higher tech solution is that you can more acurately calculate your costs, operate more efficiently and win the contract at $100,000
one of the key problems in business is making sure you're profitable. And your supposedly simple problem of garbage collection, is actually much more complex than you seem to think.
Fine if everybody uses the same tools to solve the problem you do, (and therefore has the same costs),bit of a bugger if they are using a more efficient model, (and therefore undercust you every time)
I'm of the opinion that you like the "tools are neutral" doctrine, because it makes it simple to think about things
well yes that's kind of the point of models. I'll happily concede that it's a simplification, but it's a useful one as your bias model leaves us with the problem that we have no way of calculating what all those biases are.
I think we are also having conflict over the interchangabilty of technology and tools.
considering for example your list
distilled alcohol- solvent for wide range of chemical processes, antiseptic, rocket fuel, fundamental component of a good martini.
that's without seriously thinking about it, already that is a list that to me suggests there is a valid reason for simplifying it and assuming the thing itself is neutral. To take your bias approach, means we need to work out every possible use and then conduct statistical analysis to find some sort of GOOD/BAD score. I suggest that is more likely to give us an indication of our own bias, than that of the tool.
slotmachines- I wouldn't really class them as tools, they are more like the product of tools, the same tools that give us clocks, ATM machines etc.
I think this is perhaps the key disagrement between us, you seem to be suggesting that because a tool can be used to create "bad" content that is a function of the tool, and my position is that that is a function of the user of the tool. I appreciate that in many cases that can seem like a pointless semantic argument, but I think it is an key distinction. For example it leads to the conclusion that you don't solve the problem by changing the tool, you solve the problem by changing the user.
I accept your argument that macromedia is in control of the standard, but that doesn't stop it from being a standard none the less. Part of the problem with standards bodies like the w3.org is that by their very nature they are slow and bureaucratic. I don't know if you recall the whole browser wars experience firsthand (obviously I mean the first browser wars here IE vs Netscape, not any of the current peacekeeping actions), but part of the problem was that the w3.org took forever defining the next standard and so microsoft and netscape took the matter into their own dirty hands. For more failings of the slowness of standards bodies have a look at the take up of SVG format, and compare and contrast with betamax VHS.
The reason microsoft and netscape were able to have this battle in the first place, is because the net was taking a quantum leap, it stopped being purely an academic tool and started becoming "something else" the ideas of what that "something else" could be fueled the whole dot.com boom. I still don't think we have worked out what that "something else" really is yet, but I think it is, to quote 2001 "something wonderful".
Part of what has fueled the development and investment in this new thing is capitalism, and while you feel perhaps that that is not one of the principles that designed the net, I'd beg to differ, and further to say that this is not inherently evil either.
One of the things that I think has been missed in all of this argument is that flash player is a damn good product that runs the same on over 90% of web-browsing machines (even allowing for macromedia's marketing hype, I think this IS a credible figure). This is despite breaking one of the design principles of which you speak with such reverence, separating content from style.
I'd say this suggests that the internet is already more things, and has more requirements that its original military design, of a network capable of surviving a nuclear strike. Which bring me back to the whole bias thing, you can't effectively interpolate a tools bias until all possible uses have been explored, otherwise your just expressing your preconceived preferences.
oh and yes I "get it yet"... we both have far to much time on our hands that we waste in slashdot:)
Sadly from over here it looks like everything Bill pointed to as bad, has just got worse.
Pointless war on drugs.
Corporate greed.
The increase in fundamentalism (of all flavours).
American Pop idol.
The war in Iraq (again.)
The theft of democracy.
I suspect if he were alive today Bill would be declared an enemy of the state.
Some people have been on the ride for a long time and they begin to question, is this real, or is this just a ride? And other people have remembered, and they come back to us, they say, "Hey - don't worry, don't be afraid, ever, because, this is just a ride... And we... kill those people.
Well then it's your choice not to send that private information by e-mail. This isn't rocket science.
If you send me your super secret cold fusion plans by e-mail, and I choose to publish those plans on the web, and google trawls my site and your secret data winds up all over google servers and the web, who is to blame?
I'd suggest either you for not specifing a non-disclosure agreement, or me for ignoring said agreement? not, I would contest, google.
I can't see how the theoretical g-mail situation is any different. Your privacy was compromised when you sent the e-mail to someone else. That's the nature of privacy.
If you believe music hasn't evolved since the 70's wander into a british dance club. The american music market might have stayed the same, but over here in europe it's been possible for some really interesting stuff to reach an audience.
In terms of chart music however, there seems to be a trend for the age of "the kids" to be going even lower (8 or 9 yrs is about my guess. Presumably these are the people who still buy singles.
sclub7 (a music industry do it yourself band) did a series of ads for some product (probably fizzy drink, can't recall) where the winners would get to go to a sclub party... the potential winner actors were pre-teen kids. Can you imagine The Doors doing that, or even The Beatles? (shudder)
In the immortal words of Bill Hicks "... I want my rockstars dead!"
"I allow for exceptions, but I have seen very few sites which actually use Flash to present useful content in a sensible way. This would, unfortunately, force me to use it. I have seen none recently, because I don't use the plug-in. I flat out refuse."
I have my eyes closed, until you show me a picture I think is good enough, I'll keep them closed.
Er... just repeating something over and over doen't make it true.
Technology IS neutral is has no biases to be bloody anything. At its most fundamental, are you suggesting that rocks are evil because people can get hit over the head with them? I point out we can also build houses and grind corn with them...both offically Good TM. Doesn't this make rocks neutral? See that's why we say tools are neutral...
"Flash is a non-standard, proprietary data format"
er no it isn't, flash SWF is an open STANDARD data format. Flash player is a free proprietary player for this open standard.
Flash MX 2004 is a Proprietary piece of software that produces SWF files.
"*completely* contrary to every principle behind the design of the internet"
You really have no clue about this whole internet business at all do you? Who exactly do you think designed it, and for what purpose?... (I'll give you a clue, if you can fit it in a post your model is too simplistic.)
Slashdot Mirror
so surely what we should be suggesting is that he build robot sheep?
*insert tumbleweed here*
esrt while son
surely he just means to erst as long as the condition son is true?
ah... i'll get me coat....
I think you also over estimate the market when you suggest "business/corporate ppl [are]
Big business has a huge amount invested in their IT Infrastructure and so any change is going to cost a large sum of money, and if they make the wrong choice, someone loses their job. The old case of "no one got fired for buying IBM" is becoming true for microsoft. It may not be the best choice, but it's unlikely to get you fired.
very true, I'm not convinced that linux is that system yet, it solves many issues but then causes others. There is a lot to be said to the microsoft approach of treating your users as if they don't understand, and don't care. And then providing good documentation for those that seek it out.
my experience of linux is that documentation is either information overload, or nothing useful, and not much in between
I think we need a paradigm shift in computing with relation to security, comparable to that between command line and gui [ yes yes, I know real men use command lines, but most users aren't real men]. Unfortunately I don't know what that shift is, otherwise I'd be potentially very rich, but I don't think it's any of the current unix offspring.
whoops! Well that's what I get for trying to speak american without a dictionary. I'll stick to english in future :)
Even better than making money off idiots, you wind up making money off scum who want to make money off idiots.
With the added bonus of course that if you produce a big enough range of (hopefully) crap CD's you can flood the market raising the cost of spamming.
Perhaps a similar scheme could be applied to fake send-safe.com style sites
And what makes you think that joe user will do anything other than login as root.
As for User consent, most of the windows viruses out there at the moment require the user to run the
The biggest vulnerability in computers is the users. Just you see how secure your beloved OS (pick any OS here, not just linux) once you unlease the great general public on it.
No matter how well you idiot proof something, you can always find a better idiot.
it is perhaps a sad fact that most of the poeple doing "real" programing are actually not that good at it, they are however good enough to get the job done.
granted it's not the best job, but it works
a lot of business is about just getting something that works, as much as we'd like to think it was about getting the best solution it really isn't.
so yes a lot of these "fake" programmers, like the pretty toolsets, and they get something that mostly works. And in less time than it would have taken them to go and get a "real" programming education.
Can the same really be said for linux?
The sad truth is that most companies don't run on best, they run on cheapest. Oh and they will much rather spend the money on licences than staff, they actually get to own the licences (subject to terms and conditions. milage may vary), staff may wander.
The reason TCO of microsoft is lower than linux is that monkeys are cheaper, (and more plentiful) than penguins.
Microsoft... an infinite number of monkeys can't be wrong (now with free copy of complete works of shakespear)
Good link
I don't know what's worse; that you constructed this evil phrase... or that we find it funny.
waiter!... I need a life over here please, this ones a bit stale.
I know purists might argue that "think of a number" isn't really a question. However if they think that would have stopped Adam's they are quite mistaken.
I think actually it's like the question "Why is a raven like a writting desk?". Lewis Carroll didn't intend there to be an actual answer... but he found the readers' solution "...because Poe wrote on both." to be be true and funny.
BTW has anyone else noticed the similarity between "genuine people personalities" and everyones favourite windows application clippy the paperclip?
Adam's was a genius...
there is more film goodness here including what I think is a picture of marvin.
You know what? It just might work, after all Pete Jackson did a damn good job, and everyone thought he would suck.
Lets just all pray George Lucas doesn't walk near the studio. [shuddering at the thought of Ja-Ja Marvin]
An advantage of the higher tech solution is that you can more acurately calculate your costs, operate more efficiently and win the contract at $100,000
one of the key problems in business is making sure you're profitable. And your supposedly simple problem of garbage collection, is actually much more complex than you seem to think.
Fine if everybody uses the same tools to solve the problem you do, (and therefore has the same costs),bit of a bugger if they are using a more efficient model, (and therefore undercust you every time)
well that got rid of the damn badgers at least
well yes that's kind of the point of models. I'll happily concede that it's a simplification, but it's a useful one as your bias model leaves us with the problem that we have no way of calculating what all those biases are.
I think we are also having conflict over the interchangabilty of technology and tools.
considering for example your list
that's without seriously thinking about it, already that is a list that to me suggests there is a valid reason for simplifying it and assuming the thing itself is neutral. To take your bias approach, means we need to work out every possible use and then conduct statistical analysis to find some sort of GOOD/BAD score. I suggest that is more likely to give us an indication of our own bias, than that of the tool.
I think this is perhaps the key disagrement between us, you seem to be suggesting that because a tool can be used to create "bad" content that is a function of the tool, and my position is that that is a function of the user of the tool. I appreciate that in many cases that can seem like a pointless semantic argument, but I think it is an key distinction. For example it leads to the conclusion that you don't solve the problem by changing the tool, you solve the problem by changing the user.
I accept your argument that macromedia is in control of the standard, but that doesn't stop it from being a standard none the less. Part of the problem with standards bodies like the w3.org is that by their very nature they are slow and bureaucratic. I don't know if you recall the whole browser wars experience firsthand (obviously I mean the first browser wars here IE vs Netscape, not any of the current peacekeeping actions), but part of the problem was that the w3.org took forever defining the next standard and so microsoft and netscape took the matter into their own dirty hands. For more failings of the slowness of standards bodies have a look at the take up of SVG format, and compare and contrast with betamax VHS.
The reason microsoft and netscape were able to have this battle in the first place, is because the net was taking a quantum leap, it stopped being purely an academic tool and started becoming "something else" the ideas of what that "something else" could be fueled the whole dot.com boom. I still don't think we have worked out what that "something else" really is yet, but I think it is, to quote 2001 "something wonderful".
Part of what has fueled the development and investment in this new thing is capitalism, and while you feel perhaps that that is not one of the principles that designed the net, I'd beg to differ, and further to say that this is not inherently evil either.
One of the things that I think has been missed in all of this argument is that flash player is a damn good product that runs the same on over 90% of web-browsing machines (even allowing for macromedia's marketing hype, I think this IS a credible figure). This is despite breaking one of the design principles of which you speak with such reverence, separating content from style.
I'd say this suggests that the internet is already more things, and has more requirements that its original military design, of a network capable of surviving a nuclear strike. Which bring me back to the whole bias thing, you can't effectively interpolate a tools bias until all possible uses have been explored, otherwise your just expressing your preconceived preferences.
oh and yes I "get it yet"... we both have far to much time on our hands that we waste in slashdot :)
I suspect if he were alive today Bill would be declared an enemy of the state.
never misunderestimate the power of idiocy.
If you send me your super secret cold fusion plans by e-mail, and I choose to publish those plans on the web, and google trawls my site and your secret data winds up all over google servers and the web, who is to blame?
I'd suggest either you for not specifing a non-disclosure agreement, or me for ignoring said agreement? not, I would contest, google.
I can't see how the theoretical g-mail situation is any different. Your privacy was compromised when you sent the e-mail to someone else. That's the nature of privacy.
In terms of chart music however, there seems to be a trend for the age of "the kids" to be going even lower (8 or 9 yrs is about my guess. Presumably these are the people who still buy singles.
sclub7 (a music industry do it yourself band) did a series of ads for some product (probably fizzy drink, can't recall) where the winners would get to go to a sclub party... the potential winner actors were pre-teen kids. Can you imagine The Doors doing that, or even The Beatles? (shudder)
In the immortal words of Bill Hicks "... I want my rockstars dead!"
Ah! I understand now. You're just upset there isn't enough Flash Pr0n.
I have my eyes closed, until you show me a picture I think is good enough, I'll keep them closed.
How's that whole blind thing working out for ya?
I presume of course you only use lynx to browse?
Technology IS neutral is has no biases to be bloody anything. At its most fundamental, are you suggesting that rocks are evil because people can get hit over the head with them? I point out we can also build houses and grind corn with them...both offically Good TM. Doesn't this make rocks neutral? See that's why we say tools are neutral...
"Flash is a non-standard, proprietary data format" er no it isn't, flash SWF is an open STANDARD data format. Flash player is a free proprietary player for this open standard. Flash MX 2004 is a Proprietary piece of software that produces SWF files.
"*completely* contrary to every principle behind the design of the internet"
You really have no clue about this whole internet business at all do you? Who exactly do you think designed it, and for what purpose?... (I'll give you a clue, if you can fit it in a post your model is too simplistic.)