One is certainly able to play games without a mouse. I mean, I played Doom and Doom II just fine with just the keyboard... But having a multi-button mouse is invaluable to every gamer out there, so I'm guessing you're not really into computer games. I have both the Logitech MX510 and MX900, (510 for gaming and 900 for 'everything else') and I use all 8 buttons on each mouse quite often. Even in a non-game situation I frequently use forward/back while browsing (computer and internet), right-click, and the up and down buttons for next song/previous song in winamp (I tend to listen to music most of the time when not gaming). The oft-overlooked 'quickswitch' button on the MX mice chassis is also awesome, especially when dealing with multiple windows (which happens quite often, many of us would agree).
In gaming, I often wish I had *more* buttons in shooters: left-click for fire, right-click for reload/secondary fire, forward and back buttons for things like flashlights, zooming, crouching, etc, but as games get more complex controls, it's nice to have everything there on one's fingertips (without being forced to use combos, like youre ctrl-click). Plus, switching between weapons with the scroll wheel (something that's been standard in everything since Quake) is terribly unnatural with a wheel that doesn't click (ie, the new IntelliMice and the MightyMouse).
I used a standard 3-button Logitech for ages before getting a 510 about 2 years ago, and I don't think (as a gamer and experienced computer user) I could ever go back to anything fewer than 6 buttons for my own personal use.
So... $50 for a three-button mouse that emulates one extra button? That's corded? I hate to fall back on some "overpriced Mac crap" argument, but come on. Heaven forbid one wants to press both a right and left button at the same time, or possibly use more than forward and back buttons, or (gasp!) go wireless.
Now, I won't put too much weight on it being corded (I use a Logitech MX510), but still. This is $50 for a mouse that fits right into the previous generation MS Intellimouse or generic Logitech 3-button.
Hopefully USB really is universal in that one could use a high end non-Mac mouse in their Mac machine.
why not compare it to a Gateway Profile 5.5 since it would be the closest thing to an iMac?
Please reread my original post:
Not to disagree with your argument, but the problem that a lot of people have regarding prices PCs and Macs have to do with self-built machines. While it's difficult to make your own Mac from scratch, a powerful PC can be built terribly easily and extremely cheap from individual parts purchased online.
1) Case/PSU - http://www.pricewatch.com/prc.aspx?i=74&a=4777 - We'll still say under $50
2) The iSite is a webcam - lots of places for under $50 (with the added benefit of being able to move said webcam;)
3) OS - any free linux/unix flavor you'd like, or $90 - $100 for XP Home, if you so choose
With those we're at between $50 and $150 added to the original total of $839, which is still under $1000.
Plus, the keyboard/mouse combo for $100 was just to get bluetooth in there. Get a standard keyboard and mouse for less than $50 and go out and grab a $20 bluetooth dongle.
Also, what's with the "student discount?" I got a $35 copy of WinXP Pro and a $25 of Office XP Pro through our university as per the student discount. Pretty sure that's not available to most people, however.
I disagree on the software aspect, partly because it's not possible to purchase a cheaper Mac without that bundled software. Even if the retail value of that software is $100+, it doesn't cost Apple anything to bundle it with the machine. And if you look at any seller of computers out there from Dell to Gateway to Falcon NW, the "valued" price of the OS is less than retail price.
Besides, if one really wanted to, they would be able to find free software, be it the OS, or image editing software, or media editors/players, etc etc.
I'm glad you brought up the comment about the monitors; I don't really know much about LCDs, and it's interesting to note how pricy some of them still are.
I was commenting on the post that Macs are very close in price to comparable PCs. With regards to power, yes, PCs are generally a better value. I'm not making the argument that a PC is a better deal, just that you get more computational power per dollar than you normally would with a Mac.
It's tough discussing this with someone whose heart is set on the Mac mentality. Like nearly everything that Apple currently produces, the Mac is as much an artistic expression as it is a "computer." This is why the physical and visual designs are highly touted (and done pretty well, I think). The thing is, the mechanics behind all of the new Macs are not worth that price when simply compared piece by piece. Even Mac OSX follows this; it's based off a family of operating systems than can be had for free, even if they may lack the polish of a Mac.
There's always the "form vs function" argument with technical stuff. Part of a Mac's price is the branding; you're buying the Apple style and craftmanship. It's really not about the parts. This is the reason that Macs are both loved and hated.
Of course, it's not Mac specific at all. Look at any high-end PC makers like Falcon NW, VoodooPC, or Alienware. They're *easily* some of the most expensive desktop systems you can find. However, in the end PC users have the choice between a range of prices, while Macs are almost exclusively a 'premium' product.
Funny, I was just making that argument to my baker that his cakes were way over priced. I mean, $1 for flour, another $1.25 in sugar, an egg or two... his are a total rip off.
I strongly suggest you look threw my original comment find where I alluded to Macs being a ripoff. I really think you missed my point, so hopefully *this* post clarifies it a bit.
Actually, all of those prices are either directly from pricewatch/newegg (without rebates) or just general off the top of my head prices that could be found with rebates. I abhor the way rebates work with a lot of online vendors, so I took that into account.
Exactly! Will the average person who purchases an iMac G5 use any of the developer tools? Besides, there are freeware versions of a lot of the software included on both Mac and pre-built PCs.
And hey, since this is/. what about using linux or unix instead of WinXP? Pretty sure you can get some of those distros for free;P
Not to disagree with your argument, but the problem that a lot of people have regarding prices PCs and Macs have to do with self-built machines. While it's difficult to make your own Mac from scratch, a powerful PC can be built terribly easily and extremely cheap from individual parts purchased online.
The $1299 iMac G5 you reference has these listed specs:
17-inch widescreen LCD
1.9GHz PowerPC G5
512MB memory (533MHz DDR2 SDRAM)
160GB Serial ATA hard drive
Slot-load 8x double-layer SuperDrive
ATI Radeon X600 Pro with 128MB DDR video memory
Comparable PC with random parts online:
17" LCD - $200
AMD Athlon64 3000+ (1.8GHz) - $135
PCIe/Socket 939 motherboard with SATA - $70
512MB PC2-4200 (DDR2-533) - $50
SATA 160GB drive - $60
PCIe Radeon X600 Pro with 256MB RAM - $84
802.11g Wifi card - $40
Logitech bluetooth mouse/keyboard combo - $100
Case/PSU - $50
Dual-layer DVD burner - $50
The PC totals about $850. While the Mac isn't twice as expensive, it's still a good few hundred dollars more. If the PC was based on a few more premium parts, it might get a little closer, and if you wanted to make something in the form factor of the iMac G5, then yeah, it'd be more money too... but the power:price ratio for PCs is generally much higher than it is for Macs.
Different games such as FarCry have used what they've called HDR, but valve came up with their own list of features which they felt should be present. Several of which haven't been seen before.
The technology was introduced by Valve in DoD Source (as the GP stated), and was fully implemented in at least 2 of the 4 original maps released (Anzio and Avalanche used it to full effect, not sure about the other two).
The tech demo was released specifically to showcase the lighting technology in the HL2 engine, but there are no new features from the DoD Source release.
What the GP said was correct, and I too find it frustrating any of this is considered 'new', even for Valve.
That said, I watched my roommate play through a sizeable portion of the level last night, and enjoyed the commentary.
They are both levels of abstraction. I don't think too many of us programmers got our start in assembly.
You're definitely right, but I think that starting out with the high-level languages is a good balance between abstraction and being able to have some powerful control. Start too high (Visual Studio, etc) and you risk not being able to easily understand what's really going on. Start too low (ASM) and you may be too frustrated to continue... or may not be able to understand 'the big picture' when it comes to programming.
...and the folks who worry the most about opposing ethnic diversity are often the ones who strive the hardest to spin the words of those they think they disagree with.
Reread the words you originally commented on: I care far less that there is little diversity here than I do that university and city officials pretend there is diversity where there is not.
If you want uniformity of thought, visit the hard-line conservatives that make up the majority of the rural and small town areas outside of Madison (and exist throughout most of the 'small town midwest'). Representatives from those areas are (and always have been) strongly bothered by the notion that a fairly progressive city (Madison) and county (Dane) exist right in the middle of them.
This cultural clash between the rural conservatives and the 'urban' (heh, as urban as Madison can be...) liberals is also one of the main reasons why this area is so minority unfriendly. Conservatives hoping to keep minorities out and liberals urging the importance of bringing minorities in debases the fact that we're all human, and ideally should be treated as such.
Even with the university, Madison is >86% white people.
...just like a lot of non-metro-sized midwest cities. It is unfortunate, though, that the myth of diversity (or even semi-diversity) is perpetuated by a lot of places around here (the UW included).
That's what I thought when I first got my GBA... and I mourned the loss of GB games on the DS when I got that, but aside from trying out my old GB games on the GBA, I didn't really play them that much. There seemed to be so many more good games coming out on the Advance platform that I wouldn't want to go back to regular GB. If one thinks about it, a lot of the best SNES games have been ported (more or less) to GBA. Mario World and Zelda games already exist, as well as some ports of NES games (though having to pay that much for each is a little excessive). I was delightly surprised at how fast quality GBA games were released.
Mexico isn't part of Canada, dummy. It's a suburb of New Mexico. Sheesh. See, they have the same name. Mexico, New Mexico, eh? EH!? Yeah, it makes sense.
Yeah, it really is. If anyone's honestly interested, just do a search for "gmail swap" and there are a bunch of results that show up. I remember one site doing that with a list of those who had invites and they had kinda neat requests like "send me a cool postcard from your hometown" in exchange for an invite.
Now that I think about it, I think it was http://www.gmailswap.com/, but I see that site has changed now.
Gmail has also upped the number of invites from 50 to 100 now, so if anyone wants one, just send me an email:P
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One is certainly able to play games without a mouse. I mean, I played Doom and Doom II just fine with just the keyboard... But having a multi-button mouse is invaluable to every gamer out there, so I'm guessing you're not really into computer games. I have both the Logitech MX510 and MX900, (510 for gaming and 900 for 'everything else') and I use all 8 buttons on each mouse quite often. Even in a non-game situation I frequently use forward/back while browsing (computer and internet), right-click, and the up and down buttons for next song/previous song in winamp (I tend to listen to music most of the time when not gaming). The oft-overlooked 'quickswitch' button on the MX mice chassis is also awesome, especially when dealing with multiple windows (which happens quite often, many of us would agree).
In gaming, I often wish I had *more* buttons in shooters: left-click for fire, right-click for reload/secondary fire, forward and back buttons for things like flashlights, zooming, crouching, etc, but as games get more complex controls, it's nice to have everything there on one's fingertips (without being forced to use combos, like youre ctrl-click). Plus, switching between weapons with the scroll wheel (something that's been standard in everything since Quake) is terribly unnatural with a wheel that doesn't click (ie, the new IntelliMice and the MightyMouse).
I used a standard 3-button Logitech for ages before getting a 510 about 2 years ago, and I don't think (as a gamer and experienced computer user) I could ever go back to anything fewer than 6 buttons for my own personal use.
So... $50 for a three-button mouse that emulates one extra button? That's corded? I hate to fall back on some "overpriced Mac crap" argument, but come on. Heaven forbid one wants to press both a right and left button at the same time, or possibly use more than forward and back buttons, or (gasp!) go wireless.
Now, I won't put too much weight on it being corded (I use a Logitech MX510), but still. This is $50 for a mouse that fits right into the previous generation MS Intellimouse or generic Logitech 3-button.
Hopefully USB really is universal in that one could use a high end non-Mac mouse in their Mac machine.
Porn in other words.
Hey, hey, hey. IRC can be used for pirating too.
I'm actually kidding. IRC is used ONLY to promote mature and academic discussions regarding many lofty educational and child-safe topics.
Saying "representative" or "agent" will almost always work. I'm a relay operator, so I'm on the phone *ALL* day with 800 numbers...
Heh. You're a good sport. Check out the dictionary. I hear it'll explain my previous post... :)
Please reread my original post:
That's why.
1) Case/PSU - http://www.pricewatch.com/prc.aspx?i=74&a=4777 - We'll still say under $50 ;)
2) The iSite is a webcam - lots of places for under $50 (with the added benefit of being able to move said webcam
3) OS - any free linux/unix flavor you'd like, or $90 - $100 for XP Home, if you so choose
With those we're at between $50 and $150 added to the original total of $839, which is still under $1000.
Plus, the keyboard/mouse combo for $100 was just to get bluetooth in there. Get a standard keyboard and mouse for less than $50 and go out and grab a $20 bluetooth dongle.
Also, what's with the "student discount?" I got a $35 copy of WinXP Pro and a $25 of Office XP Pro through our university as per the student discount. Pretty sure that's not available to most people, however.
I disagree on the software aspect, partly because it's not possible to purchase a cheaper Mac without that bundled software. Even if the retail value of that software is $100+, it doesn't cost Apple anything to bundle it with the machine. And if you look at any seller of computers out there from Dell to Gateway to Falcon NW, the "valued" price of the OS is less than retail price.
Besides, if one really wanted to, they would be able to find free software, be it the OS, or image editing software, or media editors/players, etc etc.
I'm glad you brought up the comment about the monitors; I don't really know much about LCDs, and it's interesting to note how pricy some of them still are.
Just out of curiousity's sake, does Apple allow you to buy a Mac without OSX?
I heard Dell shipped some systems without WinXP, but I don't know if the prices were any different there either.
I was commenting on the post that Macs are very close in price to comparable PCs. With regards to power, yes, PCs are generally a better value. I'm not making the argument that a PC is a better deal, just that you get more computational power per dollar than you normally would with a Mac.
It's tough discussing this with someone whose heart is set on the Mac mentality. Like nearly everything that Apple currently produces, the Mac is as much an artistic expression as it is a "computer." This is why the physical and visual designs are highly touted (and done pretty well, I think). The thing is, the mechanics behind all of the new Macs are not worth that price when simply compared piece by piece. Even Mac OSX follows this; it's based off a family of operating systems than can be had for free, even if they may lack the polish of a Mac.
There's always the "form vs function" argument with technical stuff. Part of a Mac's price is the branding; you're buying the Apple style and craftmanship. It's really not about the parts. This is the reason that Macs are both loved and hated.
Of course, it's not Mac specific at all. Look at any high-end PC makers like Falcon NW, VoodooPC, or Alienware. They're *easily* some of the most expensive desktop systems you can find. However, in the end PC users have the choice between a range of prices, while Macs are almost exclusively a 'premium' product.
I strongly suggest you look threw my original comment find where I alluded to Macs being a ripoff. I really think you missed my point, so hopefully *this* post clarifies it a bit.
Actually, all of those prices are either directly from pricewatch/newegg (without rebates) or just general off the top of my head prices that could be found with rebates. I abhor the way rebates work with a lot of online vendors, so I took that into account.
Exactly! Will the average person who purchases an iMac G5 use any of the developer tools? Besides, there are freeware versions of a lot of the software included on both Mac and pre-built PCs.
And hey, since this is /. what about using linux or unix instead of WinXP? Pretty sure you can get some of those distros for free ;P
Heh.. yeah, and the motherboard I had quoted didn't support DDR2 either... just wanted to throw out the price. :)
Not to disagree with your argument, but the problem that a lot of people have regarding prices PCs and Macs have to do with self-built machines. While it's difficult to make your own Mac from scratch, a powerful PC can be built terribly easily and extremely cheap from individual parts purchased online.
The $1299 iMac G5 you reference has these listed specs:
Comparable PC with random parts online:
The PC totals about $850. While the Mac isn't twice as expensive, it's still a good few hundred dollars more. If the PC was based on a few more premium parts, it might get a little closer, and if you wanted to make something in the form factor of the iMac G5, then yeah, it'd be more money too... but the power:price ratio for PCs is generally much higher than it is for Macs.
The tech demo was released specifically to showcase the lighting technology in the HL2 engine, but there are no new features from the DoD Source release.
What the GP said was correct, and I too find it frustrating any of this is considered 'new', even for Valve.
That said, I watched my roommate play through a sizeable portion of the level last night, and enjoyed the commentary.
You're definitely right, but I think that starting out with the high-level languages is a good balance between abstraction and being able to have some powerful control. Start too high (Visual Studio, etc) and you risk not being able to easily understand what's really going on. Start too low (ASM) and you may be too frustrated to continue... or may not be able to understand 'the big picture' when it comes to programming.
...and the folks who worry the most about opposing ethnic diversity are often the ones who strive the hardest to spin the words of those they think they disagree with.
Reread the words you originally commented on: I care far less that there is little diversity here than I do that university and city officials pretend there is diversity where there is not.
If you want uniformity of thought, visit the hard-line conservatives that make up the majority of the rural and small town areas outside of Madison (and exist throughout most of the 'small town midwest'). Representatives from those areas are (and always have been) strongly bothered by the notion that a fairly progressive city (Madison) and county (Dane) exist right in the middle of them.
This cultural clash between the rural conservatives and the 'urban' (heh, as urban as Madison can be...) liberals is also one of the main reasons why this area is so minority unfriendly. Conservatives hoping to keep minorities out and liberals urging the importance of bringing minorities in debases the fact that we're all human, and ideally should be treated as such.
[/rant]
...just like a lot of non-metro-sized midwest cities. It is unfortunate, though, that the myth of diversity (or even semi-diversity) is perpetuated by a lot of places around here (the UW included).
Check the dns for stopkill.com, his site... it was updated Oct 15, 2005, and the new contact email is "greytop@comcast.net". Hope that helps :)
That's what I thought when I first got my GBA... and I mourned the loss of GB games on the DS when I got that, but aside from trying out my old GB games on the GBA, I didn't really play them that much. There seemed to be so many more good games coming out on the Advance platform that I wouldn't want to go back to regular GB. If one thinks about it, a lot of the best SNES games have been ported (more or less) to GBA. Mario World and Zelda games already exist, as well as some ports of NES games (though having to pay that much for each is a little excessive). I was delightly surprised at how fast quality GBA games were released.
Mexico isn't part of Canada, dummy. It's a suburb of New Mexico. Sheesh. See, they have the same name. Mexico, New Mexico, eh? EH!? Yeah, it makes sense.
Yeah, it really is. If anyone's honestly interested, just do a search for "gmail swap" and there are a bunch of results that show up. I remember one site doing that with a list of those who had invites and they had kinda neat requests like "send me a cool postcard from your hometown" in exchange for an invite.
Now that I think about it, I think it was http://www.gmailswap.com/, but I see that site has changed now.
Gmail has also upped the number of invites from 50 to 100 now, so if anyone wants one, just send me an email :P
64-bit Windows (Windows XP Professional x64 Edition):
128 GB physical RAM
16 TB virtual memory
512 TB paging file
...assuming we're talking 32bit Windows. A 64bit OS will handle... 32TB of RAM? I think that's what it is. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.