First off I want to thank you for a rational argument and for treating me with respect.
isn't it completely natural for any species to exploit all advantages it has over other species in its environment? A beaver does not own the trees it cuts down and drags over to block a stream. A lion doesn't own the zebra or antelope it eats.
Yes, but does the lion truly "exploit all advantages" it has over the zebra? Does the lion kill more zebras than it needs, or only enough to survive? When lions are nourished, they are of no concern to zebras and they actually "hang out" more often than the discovery channel documents. the hunts are the exciting part...
By nature's own laws, we won, and they are ours to own.
You speak as if nature's competion is over. Why is it that evolution had to stop when civilization began? Also, aren't we being sore winners? Wouldn't the truly civilized winner say "Okay, we won, but we will still allow you to live as you have since your creation." That sounds better to me than "Get off our land, it's ours now!" and "We own you and you will do nothing but provide for us!"
Furthermore, propaganda from the meat and dairy industries notwithstanding (and tell me vegetarians don't do the same)...
We do it because we are the minority, and because it actually hurts us to see what goes on around us. We do not do it for profit in currency form.
We eat plants and meat. That you haven't suffered any deleterious effects from your diet after only three years is great, and I hope you continue to enjoy good health, but I have a friend who recently had to drop the strict vegetarian lifestyle after ten years because it had caused her digestive and neurological damage. I doubt all will suffer the same effects, but some will...because we aren't herbivores.
Are you saying that the same science that can clone sheep and pigs cannot account for dietary changes?
As dangerous as humans can be to other species in their environment, humans are also the only ones to act compassionately towards the animals they threaten.
I see compassion towards dogs and cats, but most definately not towards cows, chickens, pigs, rats, roaches, etc. They're not cute, remember?:)
I agree that we shouldn't treat animals cruely. If for no other reason than it would reflect badly on us.
Like what I was saying about us being civilized winners rather than bitter and jaded for no reason.
However, having been on my share of dairy farms and chicken ranches, it doesn't look like those animals have it so bad. They're fed, sheltered from bad weather (usually), protected from other predators, and have the benefits of a balanced diet and veternary care. Slaughter is usually quick and intended to be painless...a far cry from the death a wild herbivore suffers at the claws and fangs of carnivores.
Out of curiosity, were you on a private farm (owned by a family perhaps), or on a corporate farm? There is a big difference I've noticed. The one you're describing doesn't sound like the typical corporate farm.
To try to guide this away from seeming to be an attack, would you be willing to eat meat if it were genetically cloned tissue that never even grew on a complete organism? Cloned veal or chicken filets?
I personally would probably not eat meat, but I would rejoice if the invention could happen. While it would involve the killing of animals to develop such a process, those animals wouls be martyrs for all who followed them. Even with this, things would not change too much. Humans would still own animals. Even I, as a kid, used to shoot birds in my back yard with a bb gun, not to eat, but because it gave me power. Why? Why was this acceptable?
I truly am sorry if this reads like flame or a "counter-attack":)
Is this really progress?!?!?! Our 6 billion and rapidly growing population isn't going to disappear, it's going to be our downfall. ESPECIALLY if modern medicine keeps everyone alive. I'm a product of modern medicine, and wouldn't be here today if it weren't for it, but if I needed a transplant tomorrow, there's no way in hell I would take it if it had anything to do with the slavery/slaughtering of animals. I would accept that it's my time to die, not cheat my way out of it.
> Next time say "thanks a lot" or "wow, you folks are sure smart" instead.
> Would your opinion change tomorrow if you found out that your liver was failing and the only way to survive was to have a pig's liver transplanted into you? I'm guessing you wouldn't (BICBW).
There are some people who would, myself included. If my kidney were failing as of right now, I wouldn't be too ecstatic, but I would also accept that it is my time to go (even though I'm far from religious...?) My father has MS and is on all kinds of test drugs that "require" the laboratory slaughter of mice. If i were in his situation I would get accupuncture and possibly even pot for the pain.
Now, I am a vegan/animal rights activist, so I'll do my bit here. My feeling is that, in the broad scope of time, humans did happen to become the first intelligent-enough species on earth to have civilization and agriculture. But that doesn't mean we should rule the world. We do not own animals and most people would agree with me there I think. Since we don't own them, how else can one articulate the way we treat them? We subject them to highly unnatural conditions for no other reason than being to our benefit. Not only do we think we own animals, but we're ruthless owners 100 times worse than the very worst of slave owners.
I don't like to put the blame on individuals, partly because I used to be the same way. The blame goes on the the meat industry, the dairy industry, the fast food industry, etc. The meat industry makes us think meat is healthy, when it is far from it. I've been meat free for 3 years now and never had any problems with protein or anything. I also have a lack of motivation so I didn't even do any special research on my diet, don't take any vitamins, and so on. The dairy industry makes us think milk gives us strong bones with the calcium surplus. We don't need milk any more than a weened cow needs milk. It is for newborn calfs! Calfs that double their body weight in their first week of life. Milk is not needed by any human on earth. The fast food industry teaches us to not think about where our food comes from. Every time one gets a 39 cent cheeseburger from McDonald's, a cow has been mistreated (the milk in the cheese and bread), then killed. This "little sidenote" doesn't even occur to the masses, including me when I ate meat. Bah bah bah, that's what they want us to do, and that's exactly what we do.
jeez all that tells me is not to find myself swimming in a sea of milk. Note: the scientists were so excited that their dumbass experiment actually had results, they ran out of the lab and the unlucky mice were left to find the platform. it proved difficult, tho, as the newly formed tumors in their brains made swimming quite a task. Another result: inhaling milk does not cure cancer.
it was only a matter of time before somebody took advantage of that huge billboard in the sky...just waiting for ads! i mean really, our highways are cluttered with advertizements already, it's about time someone took it a step further. imagine that lost civilization in the amazonian rainforests who will create a new god when they see "PIZZA HUT" written on the mysterious rock in the sky. arghh! i cant take it anymore.
It reminds me of the game postal - "It's always funny until somebody gets hurt... and then it's absoutely friggin' hilarious!" And also - "It's more fun than poking yourself in the eye!". Those two quotes from the same website. www.gopostal.com i think
okay so i downloaded 2.2, and saved it to my hard disk and i was going to install it over the weekend, then 2.2.3 came out! So i deleted 2.2 and got 2.2.3, and i don't remember 2.2.4 comming out, but i guess now i'll have to delete 2.2.3 and get 2.2.5, only for tomorrow, they will have 2.2.6. When are they going to stop?
On march 14th, 1879, albert einstien was born. 100 years later, in 1979, pluto went out of it's normal orbit and became the 8th farthest planet from the sun, with neptune being the last. 20 years later, on march 14, 1999 it goes back to it's normal place as the farthest planet.
why not be transformed into the space baby like in 2001? Arthur C Clarke roughly said this in his book 2001 : first people will transfer their brains to machines, then take out their brain completely and be completely electronic, then they will be totally immortal when they are transformed into pure enery, like the star child.
Slashdot Mirror
First off I want to thank you for a rational argument and for treating me with respect.
:)
:)
isn't it completely natural for any species to exploit all advantages it has over other species in its environment? A beaver does not own the trees it cuts down and drags over to block a stream. A lion doesn't own the zebra or antelope it eats.
Yes, but does the lion truly "exploit all advantages" it has over the zebra? Does the lion kill more zebras than it needs, or only enough to survive? When lions are nourished, they are of no concern to zebras and they actually "hang out" more often than the discovery channel documents. the hunts are the exciting part...
By nature's own laws, we won, and they are ours to own.
You speak as if nature's competion is over. Why is it that evolution had to stop when civilization began? Also, aren't we being sore winners? Wouldn't the truly civilized winner say "Okay, we won, but we will still allow you to live as you have since your creation." That sounds better to me than "Get off our land, it's ours now!" and "We own you and you will do nothing but provide for us!"
Furthermore, propaganda from the meat and dairy industries notwithstanding (and tell me vegetarians don't do the same)...
We do it because we are the minority, and because it actually hurts us to see what goes on around us. We do not do it for profit in currency form.
We eat plants and meat. That you haven't suffered any deleterious effects from your diet after only three years is great, and I hope you continue to enjoy good health, but I have a friend who recently had to drop the strict vegetarian lifestyle after ten years because it had caused her digestive and neurological damage. I doubt all will suffer the same effects, but some will...because we aren't herbivores.
Are you saying that the same science that can clone sheep and pigs cannot account for dietary changes?
As dangerous as humans can be to other species in their environment, humans are also the only ones to act compassionately towards the animals they threaten.
I see compassion towards dogs and cats, but most definately not towards cows, chickens, pigs, rats, roaches, etc. They're not cute, remember?
I agree that we shouldn't treat animals cruely. If for no other reason than it would reflect badly on us.
Like what I was saying about us being civilized winners rather than bitter and jaded for no reason.
However, having been on my share of dairy farms and chicken ranches, it doesn't look like those animals have it so bad. They're fed, sheltered from bad weather (usually), protected from other predators, and have the benefits of a balanced diet and veternary care. Slaughter is usually quick and intended to be painless...a far cry from the death a wild herbivore suffers at the claws and fangs of carnivores.
Out of curiosity, were you on a private farm (owned by a family perhaps), or on a corporate farm? There is a big difference I've noticed. The one you're describing doesn't sound like the typical corporate farm.
To try to guide this away from seeming to be an attack, would you be willing to eat meat if it were genetically cloned tissue that never even grew on a complete organism? Cloned veal or chicken filets?
I personally would probably not eat meat, but I would rejoice if the invention could happen. While it would involve the killing of animals to develop such a process, those animals wouls be martyrs for all who followed them. Even with this, things would not change too much. Humans would still own animals. Even I, as a kid, used to shoot birds in my back yard with a bb gun, not to eat, but because it gave me power. Why? Why was this acceptable?
I truly am sorry if this reads like flame or a "counter-attack"
> Because we've never done it before now?
We have done it for thousands of years.
> Progress is about technological change...
Is this really progress?!?!?! Our 6 billion and rapidly growing population isn't going to disappear, it's going to be our downfall. ESPECIALLY if modern medicine keeps everyone alive. I'm a product of modern medicine, and wouldn't be here today if it weren't for it, but if I needed a transplant tomorrow, there's no way in hell I would take it if it had anything to do with the slavery/slaughtering of animals. I would accept that it's my time to die, not cheat my way out of it.
> Next time say "thanks a lot" or "wow, you folks are sure smart" instead.
You couldn't torture me enought to say that.
> Would your opinion change tomorrow if you found out that your liver was failing and the only way to survive was to have a pig's liver transplanted into you? I'm guessing you wouldn't (BICBW).
There are some people who would, myself included. If my kidney were failing as of right now, I wouldn't be too ecstatic, but I would also accept that it is my time to go (even though I'm far from religious...?) My father has MS and is on all kinds of test drugs that "require" the laboratory slaughter of mice. If i were in his situation I would get accupuncture and possibly even pot for the pain.
Now, I am a vegan/animal rights activist, so I'll do my bit here. My feeling is that, in the broad scope of time, humans did happen to become the first intelligent-enough species on earth to have civilization and agriculture. But that doesn't mean we should rule the world. We do not own animals and most people would agree with me there I think. Since we don't own them, how else can one articulate the way we treat them? We subject them to highly unnatural conditions for no other reason than being to our benefit. Not only do we think we own animals, but we're ruthless owners 100 times worse than the very worst of slave owners.
I don't like to put the blame on individuals, partly because I used to be the same way. The blame goes on the the meat industry, the dairy industry, the fast food industry, etc. The meat industry makes us think meat is healthy, when it is far from it. I've been meat free for 3 years now and never had any problems with protein or anything. I also have a lack of motivation so I didn't even do any special research on my diet, don't take any vitamins, and so on. The dairy industry makes us think milk gives us strong bones with the calcium surplus. We don't need milk any more than a weened cow needs milk. It is for newborn calfs! Calfs that double their body weight in their first week of life. Milk is not needed by any human on earth. The fast food industry teaches us to not think about where our food comes from. Every time one gets a 39 cent cheeseburger from McDonald's, a cow has been mistreated (the milk in the cheese and bread), then killed. This "little sidenote" doesn't even occur to the masses, including me when I ate meat. Bah bah bah, that's what they want us to do, and that's exactly what we do.
hmm...
so that means that if each and every page on the WWW were worth $100, then it would equal bill gates' pocket.
that's nuts
so have you ever tortured animals for the sake of human convenience?
jeez all that tells me is not to find myself swimming in a sea of milk.
Note:
the scientists were so excited that their dumbass experiment actually had results, they ran out of the lab and the unlucky mice were left to find the platform. it proved difficult, tho, as the newly formed tumors in their brains made swimming quite a task.
Another result:
inhaling milk does not cure cancer.
it was only a matter of time before somebody took advantage of that huge billboard in the sky...just waiting for ads! i mean really, our highways are cluttered with advertizements already, it's about time someone took it a step further. imagine that lost civilization in the amazonian rainforests who will create a new god when they see "PIZZA HUT" written on the mysterious rock in the sky.
arghh! i cant take it anymore.
I went at grueling pace on full meals, and all i did was buy 200 pounds of food and hunt every 0.3 seconds!
could this be used on coins and the magnetic strips in dollar bills to tell how much money you're carrying?
It reminds me of the game postal - "It's always funny until somebody gets hurt... and then it's absoutely friggin' hilarious!"
And also - "It's more fun than poking yourself in the eye!". Those two quotes from the same website.
www.gopostal.com i think
okay so i downloaded 2.2, and saved it to my hard disk and i was going to install it over the weekend, then 2.2.3 came out! So i deleted 2.2 and got 2.2.3, and i don't remember 2.2.4 comming out, but i guess now i'll have to delete 2.2.3 and get 2.2.5, only for tomorrow, they will have 2.2.6. When are they going to stop?
On march 14th, 1879, albert einstien was born. 100 years later, in 1979, pluto went out of it's normal orbit and became the 8th farthest planet from the sun, with neptune being the last. 20 years later, on march 14, 1999 it goes back to it's normal place as the farthest planet.
freaky, eh?
TWINE - The World Is Not Enough
November 19, 1999
why not be transformed into the space baby like in 2001?
Arthur C Clarke roughly said this in his book 2001 : first people will transfer their brains to machines, then take out their brain completely and be completely electronic, then they will be totally immortal when they are transformed into pure enery, like the star child.
when will the actual 2.2 kernel be out?