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Linkage between Cell-phone Usage and Long Term Memory Loss
sashae writes "Wired is reporting that that scientists at the University of Washington suspect that cell-phone usage causes long-term memory loss after a series of tests involving rats swimming in a pool of milk, attempting to find a platform in the centre of the pool. The rats exposed to cell-phone radiation were unable to find the platform after being exposed. "
They should use you as their next test subject
Extrapolation is ok, I guess. Sounds odd, though, that the long-term effects of something which has only been around for less than 10 years en masse.
This seams like total crap research. I can't believe I go to this school.
I don't think much of pagers either; when you get a message, YOU have to call.. But I take it you haven't carried a mobile phone too much? Once you do, you won't go anywhere without it. (if you can prove this wrong, I respect your self-control)
NEVER use a digital cellular near sensitive equipment, like pacemakers, hospital equipment, etc.
ALL modern cellphones (at least here in Europe) have caller ID built in -> just call your buddies and they'll have your number.
Those are _CUP_ holders??? I thought they were beer-can holders. Learn something new every day.
NMRs operate at below what's called the Activation Threshhold. If they used any more powerful magnets, or more powerful radio bursts, they'd induce currents in muscles and nerves. This of course can lead to spasms, heart palpitations, etc. Extremely large amounts can induce heart attacks, and seizures. All current NMRs operate just below this threshhold. Some people have reported feeling muscles twitch, and their hearts palpitate while being in a NMR. :)
Here, we are talking long term low dose exposure to RF radiation, not one shot acute exposure. Long term effects can be far more insidious. Outright large doses of gamma rays can kill, low doses over years can give you cancer..
Acute affects are easy to notice, but long term effects are harder to see, since people most often think that low doses are safe.
Warning! Being a test subject for this scientist can be hazardous to your health!
or
Warning! Being a test subject for this scientist can cause birth defects!
Maybe we can start an anti-scientist movement amongst the rats and have Non-scientist sections in rat restaurants and pass city ordinances for scientists to have to experiment on rats outside in the parking lot...
it says why in the story... so they can't see the platform
They have to put thier hands in blood an shit everyday for a living
Then let half of them use cellphones.
Drop the hundred people back in the pool and see if they find the platform.
Then we know.
I'm not one to disparage the scientific method, but the more important fact is what particular mechanism in RF exposure to the brain might be causing the acetylcholine deficit.
Ok, I'm not even touching how little specific information it gives about intensity, frequency, etc. of the radiation used on the rats; that's being nicely pointed out all over.
But it's interesting how the couple of paragraphs on acetylcholine are casually thrown in there, with no connection to the experiment. Where does it say anything about effects of microwave radiation on the acetylcholine molecule itself, on acetylcholine production, or receptor activity? Did the experimenters sacrifice the rats afterwards and perform any tests related to neurotransmitter levels at all? It's not mentioned.
I hope this isn't just a nice way to make vague research sound better by throwing in tangential facts.
Scientists have REALLY only successfully proven that scientists' experiments are detrimental to the health of rats.
... uh, what's their number again?
Yeech!
Wow, an on-topic and funny first post!
Alas, the moderators obviously knee-jerked into marking #1 down, despite marking similar jokes as funny later on. Bad luck, mate!
Don't swim in milk.
Well, if I had to swim in milk, or the breasts it came from, I too would lose my memory and forget my name.
...along with infomercials on the "latest" weight-loss breakthroughs.
What ever happened to Journal of the American Medical Association and other reputable medical sources ?
barf.
Well lawyers have them too so I guess rats can have 'em...
does this mean that i see the same few drivers talking on cell phones? they are just randomly driving around looking for their homes or lunch.
I wonder - a rat's head is, say an inch across with very thin bone. Our heads are, what, four or five inches wide with pretty thick bone. So, did they use a rat-sized cellphone on the rats? And if so, who did the rats talk too? :) It seems scientists are in the habit of overkill and saying that it's bad for you. ie - bombarding a fly with thousands of watts of flourescent lighting then when the fly dies saying "look, flourescent light is bad for you!". Bah. Now where did I put that damned cellphone?
If you've ever attached a balloon to a small boat, put it in water, then let it go you'll understand what I'm saying and why the mice swim in circles.
What a terrible image. I have a newly adopted cat in my lap, although cute and affectionate, has an apparent gas problem. After a release, the cat's motor revs. It must be the sulfur content in cat food. Milk also seems to cause an explosion of bad smelling releases.
So, what is the connection of milk, gas, and the cat's motor to cell phones? The increasing power consumption required for these phones requires a higher energy source, such as powered by fuel cells from gas. This would make it possible for those who drive while talking aimlessly to vent their communications without fear of losing power.
I'm not an expert on radiation or neuroscience, but I would suspect if they increased the power of the wave lenghts, it would be to simulate longer exposure to weaker waves. E.g. simulate 10 years of exposure in 1 month, or something of that sort.
More junk science available at junkscience.com.
First off, mammalian brains as a whole are pretty similair, at least in the way nerve connections are formed and maintained. The fact that Scrapie/KJD/Mad Cow disease can infect Sheep, Cattle and humans proves the underlying bichemistry is quite similair. Microwave radiation as a weapon of war has been researched, and microwave posioning effects ( from radio workers, radar ops, etc ) is quite well known. The effects can include memory problems. Question was, no one knew the low dose effects of microwaves on the human brain. While still uncertain, it is likely that acetylcholine also plays a part in human long term memory, thus it's popularity as a smart-drug. My bet, the microwves fry or scramble up the formation of dendrites that are important in the formation and storage of long term memory. Dissecting the rat's brains should show signs of physical damage caused by cell phones if any. While rats are smaller, they would show the effects of the Cell Phone radiation exposure much more quickly than humans. I find it interesting that appearently only one exposure was enough to cause them to forget where the platform was. Humans, being bigger, may take years for the changes induced to noticably affect them. It may be so gradual, that it does unnoticed. The damage may be low grade, and cumulative. They would require either higher doses, or longer term exposure. Why Milk? This experiment is quite well known. Rats are dumped in a round featureless white cylinder, with a white platform in the center. The whole thing is filled with just enough white milk to cover the platform, rendering the platform invisible. After a few trial and errors, the rat learns where the platform is, and can repeat the actions. It's been used to test for all sorts brain effects, from poisons, to physical trauma, to birth defects, to genetics.
The other day I witnessed a car wreck and was about to call for help using my cell phone, but I couldn't remember the number for 911.
Aparrently you do not live in Austin, TX ;) Nobody knows how to drive here, whether they use cell phones or not. THey do not understand simple logic. They will happily force you off the road in an attempt to fit into a space they cannot. And these people are looking right at you! feh.
what a beowulf cluster of cell phones could do to the rats memory...
On another note, you think the rats made bad jokes like "Got Milk?"
Ya, what the hell is that? My NexTel will also modulate some video monitors (i.e. the display will shimmer a bit). FWIW, my ricochet will sometimes modulate the speakers on my thinkpad.
how the hell could a first post be redundant... especially when it doesn't say first post in it... posting anonymously so that the bonehead moderators can't touch me...
Assuming this problem is worth taking seriously, what could be a solution? For example, could the communications be placed elsewhere with a cabled headset? (How ironic would that be?) Or a signal amplifier beltbuckle? BTW, is it the amplification of signal, the circuitry (its voltage), or some other aspect of cellphones which causes the excessive radiation? -- Butt, if I clipped my phone on my belt closer to my testicles, would they be less sentimental (more forgetful) about loves lost? Would my penis forget how to do tricks (stand, sit, fetch, play dead...)? Would my pubic hair forget to be curly? If I was at risk of "forgetting" my sexual orientation, I'd quit cell phones forever! Man, work can be so boring..............
This proves nothing except that swimming around in pools of milk flusters rats. Wouldn't YOU be flustered if a giant dropped you into an ocean of milk?
I wouldn't find the platform either.... heck - i'd just swim in milk =)
Hey, start off the day calling their friends for free, and get to swim in milk. Sounds like a nice life. "Hey RF! guess where I'm calling from!"
I'm glad I dont use them.
So that's why I keep losing all those socks when I do laundry...
First of all, cell-phones have not been around long enough for anybody to have ascertained their long-term effects. So how did the scientists do it? Simple: they said, "We'll give the rats a human lifetime's worth of exposure to cell-phone radiation -- in one day!" And then they extrapolated the results.
I can prove that the light in your office will kill you. Here is a lamp that shines so brightly, it will expose you to a lifetime's worth of fluorescent light in one second. Stand here, please... ready? OK. [Arrrrgh! Poof!] See, the subject was horribly burned and then vaporized. Therefore, the lights in your office will result in burns and vaporization by the time you retire. Have a nice day.
-- An Ayn-onymous Coward
True, the skull doesn't offer much protection against EM radiation. But the energy penetrating the skull decreases quite fast as a function of depth, even at depth of 2cm (I don't remember exact numbers, so I can't say for sure) the energy level is only a fraction of the energy of the EM radiation at the surface. And most modern cellphones are designed in such a way that they wouldn't radiate towards the skull - most of the radiation is directed away from the skull. Of course, there's always some radiation which penentrates the brain, but based on the simulations and calculations I've seen the amount of energy penetrating the brain isn't dangerous. Then again, EM radiation might have some other effects which we don't know yet. And the fact that you can use your phone inside most buildings has quite a lot to do with reflected EM waves (remember, buildings have windows, which don't protect much from EM radiation, and other "holes" such as doors etc.) and that that many big buildings also have a base station or some kind of an amplifier inside the building to compensate for the otherwise weak signal. You're right, though, we don't know yet how much protection is enough - the skull clearly doesn't seem to offer enough. But without seeing the experiment data, it's hard to say if this result is something we should worry about or not.
Since I was given a cellphone in order for me to be contacted if any of our systems go down, does this mean that in a few years, I will be unable to find my way to work? Neat!! =)
Well, not sure if this is necessarily the same
but i did experience some loss in my lt memory
and it started about half a year after i got
this great cheap calling plan and started using
my cellphone extensively.
I do not necessarily think this has to be it
but on the other hand everyone in my family has
great memory - tested and certified.
I used to be able to remember names of functions
and other things in software for years. Find location after being there only once.
I still can do some of those things but with
much more difficulty - and i am only 25..
Well, some half a year ago i limited my use
of a cellphone severely (down to practically
none lately) - i will keep this up and see
if anything comes back:)
Guess i will be my own lab rat...ain't it swell?
Seriously, I'm scared shitless...
damnt, i know i was ging to post somethng here, can't remember what, someone called on the cel phone and said something,
plus the ketys are all fuzzy from my new LASIK eye surgery, oh well, man i love technology, glad so many people are making money, must keep the stcknarket up..
>but if they did the rat equivalent of surrounding a guy with 300 cell phones, the study would be quite worthless.
:-)
Now here's an interesting game show idea: Someone is put into a booth with 300 identical looking cell phones, and a single one is called. The guy has 1 minute to find the ringing cell phone and answer the call to make some cash...
Or, as a twist, all but one of the 300 phones ring at once, and the one NOT ringing has to be found.
at least you can replace your liver :\
well even that seems suggestive. Perhaps they just accelerate.
Their seem to be some very idiotic assertions on/. reguarding the validity of the study. First of all, Im slightly doubtful of it because it appeare d on Wired, however to address other concerns people have brought up: - obviously cell phone radiation is > than normal raditation if the rats exposed to cell phones forgot the way to the platform while the control's didn't. - It isn't a motor / visual problem, because the article explicitly stated they used milk so the rats would have to use their memory and not their sight. I would expect they did some sort of physical test on the rats to make sure their motor skills were ok. Personally I just bought a cell phone, like 2 weeks ago, mostly as a toy, occasionally for work, this does osrt of concern and piss me off :\.
Also, my two cents about teens with cell phones - it has been my experience that they are
used 99% of the time for calling their friends, who may be no further away than the next
room. It's a toy.
So what? That's their life. You think that your use of cellphones for business is so much more important, but that's just your life. What you're really saying is that you think that children lead unimportant lives.
Human skulls seem to be very good at absorbing cell phone radiation (well mine does anyway:) and getting very HOT in the process. I don't like talking on a cell phone for long because it starts to get really hot above my ear which is quite uncomfortable.
While your point about there being other causal factors for memory loss (remember that old statistical addage: correlation does not imply causation), I think it is a wrong assumption to assume that people carry cell phones because they lead stessful lives. Most probably carry it for convenience and other issues (like saftey). Some (read younger) people carry them to look cool. I personally carry a cell phone not because I have a stressful life, but because it is economically viable. For 60 dollars a month I get almost as much long distance as I want and I can call from anywhere on the east coast (good since I spend part of the year in Boston, part in upstate NY, and part in NJ).
Don't swim in milk.
And a lot more caffiene.
"Drink coffee, it does a body good..." :)
Uhm, was I supposed to get on I-30? Where am I going? When did I order this pastrami on rye? Why is there a house in the middle of the street... :)
The whole thing with swimming in milk sounds like
a weird thing that Lai pulled out of his butt,
but it's an old technique used all the time
in neuroscience for studying memory in rats,
called "the Morris water maze." Lots memory studies
have used this, and it seems like
a pretty good way to get at the ability of rats
to remember locations. Not that this means that
the study is correct, just that this technique
isn't quite as goofy as it might sound.
And then there's this thing called penetration depth. Electromagnetic waves can't propagate very deep from the surface of the skull inside the brain - at least when comparing the proportions of human and rat skulls, EM waves can penetrate a lot further inside a rat skull than a human skull. Then again, the article wasn't that technical so who knows what they've taken into consideration.
Laboratory research shown to cause cancer in rats
Has anyone ever done a study on ham radio operators who use handheld 2m and 70cm (146/440mhz) radios all the time? These tend to be far more powerful than any cell phone in terms of watts (usually 3-5), and are held just as close to the head.
- Daniel N2SXX
--
>>
Huh? I'm missing something here. Nobody has ever thought that "EM in any strength is completely harmless." It's never been thought that you can stand in front of a 1000w microwave horn to no ill effect, or for that matter in front of a strong laser, or to receive huge quantities of X or gamma rays. People have always known of the tissue-heating safety hazards of both sub (radio/microwave) and supra (UV, X, Gamma) light radiation.
--
Huh? I'm missing something here. Nobody has ever thought that "EM in any strength is completely harmless." It's never been thought that you can stand in front of a 1000w microwave horn to no ill effect, or for that matter in front of a strong laser, or to receive huge quantities of X or gamma rays. People have always known of the tissue-heating safety hazards of both sub (radio/microwave) and supra (UV, X, Gamma) light radiation.
--
I keep forgetting where I put my mobile phone!
J.
More caffine!
:-)
Ummm....
Deleted
I like the Tin Gallon Hat (despite /.'s mangling of your line "art".) However, I suspect the weight of such an article would produce a high risk of neck injury. I'd suggest incorporating a substantial neck brace into your next design.
My thoughts are travelling along another road: Suspend the cellphone with a helium baloon, tethered to the user by several metres/yards of microphone/headset cable. Anyone care to calculate the size of balloon needed for this? (Shouldn't be sooo big for a little StarTac should it?)
The balloon could carry advertising to subsidise the call charges.
However, I suspect cellphone users will be (even more) unwelcome at the movies.
Regards, Ralph.
> Just keep that antenna away from your skull and you'll be fine.
Yeah, wear it on your belt and wait for your gonads to "forget" how to produce sperm.
Seriously, if we buy into the EMR-is-dangerous theory, then where is the safe yet practical place to put that antenna anyhow?
Regards, Ralph.
Remember the cell phone brain cancer scare? I didn't have one then, but I do now. And I keep it in my pocket all day. So where am I gonna get cancer? And what other damage is this going to do to "important parts" down there?
Andrew Gardner
Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend. Inside a dog, its too dark to read.
Certainly. However, you attributed to ddwalker some beliefs that he did not state, but could be inferred from what he said by an invalid, but commonly used, form of reasoning.
--
Fuck the system? Nah, you might catch something.
This is probably all a misunderstanding. I interpreted "I find it really weird that you believe radiation in the brain might not cause memory loss, but yet you believe that adding milk will." as "I find it really weird that you believe radiation in the brain could not cause memory loss, but yet you believe that adding milk will."
--
Fuck the system? Nah, you might catch something.
Why my mice keep forgetting to do their chores! It's those cell phones they got! Dang... If I would have know this, I would have insisted on personal 2way radios. Or Maybe CB Raido's...
This research confirms my observation that people who talk on cell phones forget how to drive.
Lemme guess, you use a cellphone, right?
--
Everything I know in life I learnt from
If we had to use cellphones that were as big as we were, I think the radiation might affect us slightly more as well. (I think I'd be a bit confused as well if I had to go swimming round in a pool of milk after talking to my mate on a 6 foot cellphone, too...)
--
Everything I know in life I learnt from
Maybe the platform is white too - so could it be that cell phones only cause retinal rod cell damage or some degradation in the ability to distinguish contrast?
Come to find out, the doses they gave the rodents were equivalent to a human
consuming something like 200 cans of diet soda a day, every day, for seven years .
Then there was a chance that you might get cancer.
Drink that much soda and you'll need dialysis long before you have anything to worry about from cancer.
Now if I could just remember...
--Kit
Former Inmate, VA Linux Sanitarium
Yeah, I know, offtopic, but every time I see someone driving like an idiot these days it seems like they're jabbering on the phone. Every time.
Are you sure that it isn't just your phone getting warm...
--Rob
Have you ever used a Nextel phone whilst near stereo equipment, speakers of any kind, or a cordless phone base? Tick tick tick ticktickticktick TICKTICKTICK! Ever heard that noise?
Well, if it can do that to electrical equipment, just think of that really thin layer of outer brain that makes you pretty much human going tick tick tick TICKTICKTICK....
:)
I think he means put it on vibrate. I agree; I don't want to hear your phone ringing.
The day they make me carry a phone OR a pager is the day I change jobs. I might carry one if I got $50 every time it went off.
Let's not forget that, with the exception of perhaps certain individuals, human beings are quite different from rats in many ways. Most importantly, our brains and skulls are much larger and quite different from those of rats. The dosage they gave the rats very possibly would be equivalent to a far far greater dosage on people.
I mean, I'm disappointed that the Wired article does not mention dosage.. it only implies that it's similar to that of normal cell phone usage.. but that would scale to far greater for rats!
I don't know how they did their study, but if they did the rat equivalent of surrounding a guy with 300 cell phones, the study would be quite worthless.
I have a small earpiece for my phone with a microphone that clips to my collar. It makes me look like a secret service guy. At any rate, it keeps the cellphone away from my brain.
Cellphones aren't going away, so we need to find solutions.
Look at http://csep10.phys.utk. edu/astr162/lect/light/spectrum.html There is a chart showing the divisions of types of radiation (can anyone suggest a better one?). If you examine the user's manual for the Nokia 6000 series phones (big PDF file), you see that this cell phone uses 1.8x10^3-2.0x10^3MHz.
If you look at the above mentioned chart, you will see that these frequencies fall very low (high?) on the radio spectrum. You will also note that at these frequencies, the total energy is also very low. Also, keep this in mind, the natural frequency of water is in the Microwave spectrum, thus this is bad for you. Above the visible spectrum, the energies get pretty high: this is bad for you too.
In order to prove problems with cell phones, you have to convince people that listening to your radio (not even listening but just being in an area with a radio station), TV, cordless phones, and you name it, is not dangerous for you.
If anyone more knowledgable than can expound on this please do.
~afniv
"Man könnte froh sein, wenn die Luft so rein wäre wie das Bier"
~afniv
"Man könnte froh sein, wenn die Luft so rein wäre wie das Bier"
Richard von Weizs
So I screwed up.
Before someone else corrects me: 1.8x10^3MHz = 1.8x10^9Hz.
Thus you are on the ragged edge of radio/microwave spectrum. Thus this whole issue does make sense.
Apologies.
~afniv
"Man könnte froh sein, wenn die Luft so rein wäre wie das Bier"
~afniv
"Man könnte froh sein, wenn die Luft so rein wäre wie das Bier"
Richard von Weizs
I forgot where I put my cell phone last week!
~afniv
"Man könnte froh sein, wenn die Luft so rein wäre wie das Bier"
~afniv
"Man könnte froh sein, wenn die Luft so rein wäre wie das Bier"
Richard von Weizs
> you attributed to ddwalker some beliefs that he did not state
He said "Milk seems like it would alter the results".
> but could be inferred from what he said by an invalid, but commonly used, form of reasoning.
Help me fix my reasoning here. I don't see where I inferred anything at all. He said "milk may have altered the results". He's claiming that the results (which he is not disputing) may have something to do with the milk.
Assuming you accept the results and that milk is the only thing we're arguing about, there are only two possible theories: "radiation to the brain causes memory loss," or "radiation to the brain + milk causes memory loss".
I still say that's a freaky argument.
-- Don't Tase me, bro!
The base unit can easily be small enough to fit into your pocket. The ear piece fits over your ear with a little microphone sticking out. It's not only MOBILE but HANDS FREE (save for dialing/answering).
-- Don't Tase me, bro!
Thank you for the correction.
I agree that much of that story was a bit hyped, and I do have a few issues with some of their "studies" as well. However, even the Time link you gave mentions sensible precautions, like having the antenna pointed away from your head.
-- Don't Tase me, bro!
Although the effects are immediately noticeable in rats, it may take much longer for them to effect humans. Cell phones haven't been around (much less so widely depolyed) long enough for significant amount of harm to be caused to the general population. There really isn't enough data to do good human studies yet.
-- Don't Tase me, bro!
> as someone else mentioned, most rats are lactose intolerant
They DID use a control... rats that were NOT exposed to the radiation were able to find the platform.
I find it really weird that you believe radiation in the brain might not cause memory loss, but yet you believe that adding milk will.
-- Don't Tase me, bro!
When you question the methods of a study, one generally posits a counterfactual that would explain the result and that the experiment did not control for.
In this case, the counterfactual was that it was somehow possible that the milk was responsible for the memory loss (while ignoring that the control rats had no problem in the milk).
That, I believe, is truly bizarre.
-- Don't Tase me, bro!
Yes, cell phones have only been around for a decade. They haven't always been as popular as they are today, however.
Now, human life expentancy is in the 80s now. Perhaps 10 years of low-level radiation to the brain isn't so bad. But what about 20-years of radiation?
Cell phones have, until very recently, been used mostly by adults. They are now being used more and more by youunger and younger people. People who have not finished growing, and may not have, literally, as thick of a skull as the rest of us.
The effect of THIS experiment showed effects on memory. This can be very subtle. People tend to lose their memory as they age naturally, so the question is really HOW MUCH memory should they have lost. Try and come up with an experiment that compares your memory to what it was 10 years ago, and also what your memory WOULD BE if you hadn't been using a cell phone for 10 years.
Compare cell phones to tobacco. I don't think ANYONE is trying to argue that cell phone related health problems are as severe as smoking problems, but it's a useful analogy. How many years of smoking did it take for people to be generally aware that smoking was somehow linked to health problems? It's only been in the past year or so that the tobacco companies have begun *admitting* how much they knew.
Smoking won't kill you after one cigarette. No one knows exactly how many it does take, but I think it's rare to notice the health effects if you've only been smoking for less than 10 years.
Finally, there is something that you can do (other than giving up your cell phone). Move the radiation away from your skull! They now make cell phones that have a headset that plugs into the base unit. There's no need to keep the antenna next to your brain.
-- Don't Tase me, bro!
...I don't use a cell phone.
I have Digital PCS. (c:
He who has imagination without learning has wings but no feet.
Your Brain + EEG + LEGO Robots = Brainstorms
I remember waaayy back when, while I was getting my ham radio license, the instructor was discussing the use of his hand-held FM Band radio. He indicated that nobody he knew would hold that damn radio antenna anywhere near their heads. They'd orient the device so the antenna was as far away from their noggins as possible while they were transmitting to keep from getting bombarded by microwaves. If I'm not mistaken, cell phones have a slightly higher frequency range and similar power emissions.
I have a cell phone. I use it about ten minutes a year. In dire emergencies. I find that I sometimes get headaches after using the thing. I think I'm all set with using cell phones from now on. In addition, it's very rude to get a phone call in public, in a quiet place. Having gone to BU, I know all about rude (usually rich and foreign) students who would get calls in the middle of class! And answer them!
it's not like it sounds. i have a nokia 5120, and they sell a little earpiece you can plug into the bottom of the phone, so that you can place or recieve calls without the phone right next to your head.
i am purchasing one of these things as soon as i can find them somewhere. i think the recent 20/20 piece on cellphone radiation caused a buying spree in this area, because no one seems to have them for sale.
-pal
But... After we spent all that money getting teeny-tiny cell phones for ratty and his pals to use? Not to mention having to teach the little dickens to dial the damn things...
"...they may harpoon us, but they ain't gonna pick us up on no radar screen!"
Many phones disply it briefly when it starts up. Otherwise look for a menu option call NAM (Network access module) this stores your phones network settings, and should have the number in there somewhere.
Later in this thread, dmd intends to defy the poster and give three (identical) responses. ;-)
Actually, it's swimming in the nuked milk that made them dumb.
So go ahead and use that phone -- but avoid contact with milk while doing so.
And if you take milk baths, warm the milk the old-fashioned way, not with your microwave oven!
--
It's October 6th. Where's W2K? Over the horizon again, eh?
Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
I just want to know who thought up this test.
This has convinced me. I am going to immediately take the cell phones away from my pet rats. I never could understand why they had a hard time swimming through the moat of milk around my house. Now I know.
What do you call a pile of rats in a bowl of milk? The Low-Carbohydrate Diet.
But they seem to penetrate the walls of most builings I use a cell phone in without severe attenuation...Your skull offers very limited protection.
Silly scientists, they didn't consider all the possibilities before jumping to a conclusion.
99 little bugs in the code, 99 bugs in the code,
fix one bug, compile it again...
I'm a leaf on the wind. Watch how I soar.
Is that you shouldn't swim around in a pool of milk after using a cellphone.
Rats on cellphone:
Rat #1: What's up?
Rat #2: Not much.
Rat #1: Wanna go swimming?
Rat #2: 'kay.
Rat #1: Let's go hang on the platform!
Rat #2: Nah, let's just swim around...
That's precisely why, if I get a cell-phone, I'll be breaking out my tin foil hat collection.
What is the frequency, Kenneth?
Actually, this quote makes me wonder:
"We have to be careful extrapolating the results to humans," Slesin said. "But the amount of energy going into these animals is really small and not all that different, potentially, from a cell phone."
It sounds suspiciously like they were using actual cell-phone levels of radiation.
This reminds me of the lab test they used to show that some artificial sweetener caused cancer by given the rats a dose equivalent to something like a cup of the stuff (that's probably a exaggeration; but it was a *huge* amount of sweetener). Basically guarantied that the rats would die of *something*. Then one call to the FDA....
Hmmm, I'll have to remember not stop at any gas stations where a kid is wearing those blinking shoes, either... even more dangereous, since the gas fumes are heavier than air, and all that blinking has got to cause an explosion, right 8^)
I still advocate the use of ground-ground missiles for resolving traffic issues caused by cell-phones... causes a little mess, but we'd all be better off in the long run - (I tried to extend this argument to any vehicles with simulated wood paneling, but I got outvoted there) 8^)
"It's tough to be bilingual when you get hit in the head."
Unlike cigarettes, I can't tell if the person in the room next to me ate a Twinkie or a Big Mac the next day (aside from poor waste management), but I can smell that burnt crap for the rest of the week in the carpet, furniture, etc...
I suppose cellphones don't quite qualify for the 'health of innocent bystanders' part, unless you count all the morons who try to drive when talking on a cell phone. They make hands-free models, people!!! Get one or don't talk!!!
oh well... just had to vent...
"It's tough to be bilingual when you get hit in the head."
Instead of the Pied Piper of Hamilin or exterminators, let's just give every rat a free cell phone and a hunk of cheese. Good-bye disease bearing vermine. Or better yet, let's give them all internet accounts with a link to Slashdot. They will never reproduce, never produce anything of value, and the rest of us can lead happy normal lives away from the dehumanization of technology. At least the rats won't post as anonymous cowards. To all you flame baiters, this was just a joke.
Romanes eunt domus? People called Romanes, they go the 'ouse? It says Romans go home. No it doesn't. What's Latin fo
Why would scientists use milk instead of water,
IIRC, they used milk instead of water so that the rats could not see the platform, they would have to remember where it was.
George
How did they deliver the Microwave radiation? Any chance there were distracting harmonics only audible to the rats that might have polluted the study?
Get a sharp hole saw for your drill, and cut an inch and a half diameter hole in your microwave front.
Insert rat's head.
Cover rest of hole with foil.
Try 2 minutes on high.
Get many wet paper towels and clean up.
Try 10 seconds on low.
And apologies to David Foster Wallace.
George
Sorry, but this reminds me of The Simpson's episode when they caught the school serving the kids ratmilk in their school lunches. Eeewwww.
thedinger
My take on this is that the radiation made the rats smart enough to refuse to play the game any more!
All the research that has been done on electromagnetic radiation has been mostly inconclusive. 'They' have shown that at very high levels it may affect the brain of most mammals, but they really don't know why or how. They have pulled magic values out of their hats for regulatory purposes (ie, handheld phones can only emit x watts since the antenna is y millimeters from the head, while car and attache phones can emit x*10 watts since the antenna is located further away)
Therefore there are two forces affecting the regulations: The phone and semiconductor companies (ie, motorola) and the regulatory forces who are trying to be cautious. You can think of it a little like the tobacco industry in that when a negative report comes out, the corporate organizations tout other positive reports and ignore the bad reports (or make them go away if possible). If a report comes out inconclusive or positive, these organizations push it out into the open.
But then, if you've ever had an MRI then you have experienced magnetic radiation that far surpasses that emitted by a cell phone, though at a different frequency, and with different effects.
Then we could go into the radiation emitted by your monitor, computer, keyboard, mouse, etc. Not as great, but many people are sitting in front of them for longer in one day than they would use a cell phone in a month's time.
I wouldn't be too concerned about it, unless you can change your habits. The only thing that is certian is that you should spend only as much time in such fields as you need to...
-Adam
A Klingon programmer's top 12 phrases:
#6 Debugging? Klingons do not debug. Our software does not coddle the weak.
Actually, there may be more truth to that than you realize!
Check out what The Register has to say about cell phones and bowel discomfort! True story...
Even in the case of the cell phones, if this turns out to be real, I think we'll find that the frequency is key. For example, we get bombarded with a lot of radiation every day in the form of visible light at much higher energy levels and (although no one's done a controlled experiment -- I hope), it doesn't seem like that causes memory loss. Maybe the skull is more transparent to microwaves than to visible light, or maybe something in the brain responds differently to microwaves.
No, the original poster was correct. It isn't enough that the product causes harm -- you must prove negligence or worse. That's why the tobacco companies managed to get by for so long without losing a lawsuit (that, and employing a lot of lawyers).Granted, just about any company other than a tobacco company would settle lawsuits out of court to save money, so even if a company was not negligent, they could still lose a bundle from lawsuits. Futhermore, jury trials are highly unpredictable, and they have a tendency to rob Goliath to pay David, even when David's case is weak. But I stand by my claim the the original poster was correct -- the company must be found negligent.
That was my point about employing a lot of lawyers. I should have mentioned lobbyists as well.they used milk so the rats couldn't see through it and would have to remember where the platorm was
You know I saw a tv program the other day on which cell phones are the most dangerous. Turns out that just about every cell phone sold in america has an unacceptable level of radiation (if you hold it like most people hold cellphones, with the mouthpiece away from the mouth and the earpiece pressed to the ear, the cell companies only released the test results that came from holding the cell phone in a wierd position)... except for the motorola star tac (the little one that clips to the belt) it's antennta projects out of the body of the phone and well away from the brain, motorola won't admit that they are pushing the star tac because it is safer, but they seem to be... I wouldn't be surprised when alot of new model phones have this design feature.
But let's not forget that the if a little rinky dink cell phone can cause damage what the effin cell sites that are on every corner in major cities can do to you.. (I know that it has to do with the radiation falling off over distance, but imagine the people in the apartment that the cell site is anchored to..) Or microwave transmitters or whatever..
I guess it isn't a surprise that big business doesn't really care about your health, but I'm really getting annoyed at how little all of business cares about me, you know I can't buy stuff if I can't remember how to...
I've said it before and I'll say it again, we should vote with our feet, The average consumer is empowered more than ever before. Complaints on the internet have a major effect, quickly. (apple, real, etc.) Join me please in sending emails to the offending companies and taking your business elsewhere. I really can't be bothered usually and I take a cynical view and assume that every company is going to want profit over almost everything else...
I see a direct correlation with the stock market boom and online trading, every public company now is at the whims of capricious shareholders, who only want profits at any expense...
sigh
yes on topic, clearly, maybe funny. does someone not like smurfs?
They now make cell phones that have a headset that plugs into the base unit. There's no need to keep the antenna next to your brain.
Yeah, okay I dig, but the whole purpose of having a cell phone is so that you can be MOBILE, right? (Maybe I'm missing something, I don't own one, and really don't want to.) Carrying around a base unit doesn't sound like an alternative many people would jump on...
Also, my two cents about teens with cell phones - it has been my experience that they are used 99% of the time for calling their friends, who may be no further away than the next room. It's a toy. Sigh...and I thought my remote control Barbie Corvette was cool...
The Divine Creatrix in a Mortal Shell that stays Crunchy in Milk
The House Between - Original Sci-Fi Series
I mean, this is getting a tad ridiculous. The cell-phone is getting the bad end of yet another technological witch hunt. Why?
Because, like cigarettes, it meets the following three criteria:
It annoys others
It's bad for the user's health
It's bad for poor innocent bystanders' health
And so, laws get passed, studies get made, all proving how less of a human being you are for using cellphones.
That's not to say I endorse smoking, by using the above analogy. But for gods' sake, people should calm down about it. I haven't seen governments entering crusades against alcohol (only against irresponsible drinking) or junk food, yet they lead to deterioration of your health and serious medical conditions.
Why don't we see governments legislating fast food? Because it's not annoying to bystanders. They can keep up with their life and not care whether you ate a Big Mac for breakfast for the last two weeks.
What I'm saying is: cell-phones seem like they're out to ruin everyone's lives nowadays; but this kind of media attention stems from a very simple fact that has nothing to do with your health: it's that it annoys everyone when you're carrying on a conversation on a cellphone in a public place.
"Knowledge = Power = Energy = Mass"
How did they deliver the Microwave radiation? Any chance there were distracting harmonics only audible to the rats that might have polluted the study?
I don't think that would matter. My understanding was that the rats were exposed to the radiation after they had learned the location of the platform, not during the swimming lessons.
So while there could have been a different choice made, I doubt that the milk had anything to do with it. I'm sure the rats weren't trying to drink it; after all, it was powdered milk.
They're putting dimes in the hole in my head to see the change in me.
I think that it is fair to make companies liable ex post facto (after the fact). Even if no malice is present, their product did cause damage through normal operation. It's the same argument where tobacco companies would be liable for cancer deaths (which they are) and Ford would be liable for exploding Pintos (which it was).
Malice, of course, is an aggravating factor.
--
--
There is no premature anti-fascism. -Ernest Hemingway
Another scare story...
"irradiated" rats - how much radiation? Over what period of time? What is the different between short exposure to high levels of microwave radiation and long-term exposure to lower levels? At its extreme, it's the difference between cooking and what we get every day from ambient microwave radiation.
You can bet they didn't have the rats talking on actual cell phones to attempt to simulate real exposure. And as one other reader has said, rats have thinner skulls - I'll add to that by saying not just thinner, but totally different skulls. Electromagnetic radiation is affected by so many factors, like inductance, conductivity, reactivity, proximity, intensity - this begins to look like a very dodgy experiment. Hope they enjoyed the funding.
It's a great mental image if you think about a group of scientists working out new experiments like this. "Hey! We can use all that powdered milk that nobody drinks!" Real Far Side material.
Having said all that I like to use my hands-free mike whenever I can...
Analog? CDMA 800 or 1900Mhz? GSM? Don't these different standards result in radically different radiation characteristics? (Though maybe I'm happy now about how lousy my 1900Mhz pcs phone is at penetrating walls... :-)
Crap. And I so look forward to chatting with my friends while taking my relaxing evening milk bath.
======
"Rex unto my cleeb, and thou shalt have everlasting blort." - Zorp 3:16
Sacred cows make the best burgers.
Well, Lynx's various colors (which appear to be at different "depths" in the screen because of the contrast, and even seem to move in parallax) just might give me a mental breakdown someday.
--
Win dain a lotica, en vai tu ri silota
Ok...but couldn't they have clouded water rather than using milk. Milk seems like it would alter the results (as someone else mentioned, most rats are lactose intolerant.) Still seems like a rigged experiment.
Why would scientists use milk instead of water, unless they wanted to alter the results of a study...maybe its the combination of drinking milk and cell phone radiation that makes you forget. Maybe they got a batch of genetically inferior rats...
Never believe a study unless it can be duplicated by others.
White lies, lies, and statistics, the three levels of untruth in increasing order as per my stat instructor. It is amazing how things can be made to correlate. The Register has another piece upon the dangers of phones and it combines two things I would never have thought to be related: It's official: Mobile phones give you diarrhoea. I'm not even going to guess how they went about gathering information for this one.
Banfield
al connections between swimming in milk and driving an SUV in traffic
Serves them right... :)
Now I just hope wearing a beeper is linked to testicular cancer
Who ever thought it would be unhealthy holding batteries to your head for hours at a time!?
I would estimate 95% are not as important as they think they are (Doctors being a notable exception).
Right I'll explain:
-Oh excuse me, my phone's ringing...
Ok. Now what was I on about?
Ummm...
I can imagine the streets of people, the mobile phone factory train carriages in europe, the continuous buzzing of stupid tunes from mozart's to 10 to the theme from the what's it called? Um..
On our way to becoming a species with a J shaped population curve, the first to go must be the long term memory, although I think I remember other drugs of society known to cause similar problems...
What was I just talking about?
Long term memory being lost may not neccessarily be a bad thing though. In a fast paced society it may well be that the changes in our memory imposed by our use of mobile coms actually make us better at remembering the short term stuff we really need. Face it, we now have shorter times to spend (ie less than a lifetime) on our jobs, our partners, our friends, even in the places where we live. The importance of each one is great in the present, but wanes a bit a year from then.
Who cares why I came here, or about the dreams I had when I arrived. No, really, maybe we have to harden ourselves and lose those things. Maybe that's what databases are for.
They've been around for a decade. Shouldn't we start noticing *SOMETHING* is wrong, already?
... to a rat is like a human standing in a ten-foot-tall microwave. Of course you expect to lose some brain cells.
This once again proves that too much of anything is a Bad Thing. Nutrasweet, Mountain Dew, Viagara, it all causes cancer in lab rats.
But then who do you know of that consumes 10 pounds worth of Nutrasweet, drinks 300 gallons of Mountain Dew and stays erect 24 hours a day, 365 days a year doped up on Viagara?
A long term study should be performed on humans, but I doubt one will occur; its too costly and what on Earth would cell companies do when the results indicated the worst?
--
"A mind is a horrible thing to waste. But a mime...
It feels wonderful wasting those fsckers."
I currently have no clever signature witicism to add here.
Clearly you are to important to eat.
"pull my finger" - Uncle Chuckles
The study seems plausible, many times I see people with there beloved cell phones in restaurants who seem to have forgotten how rude it is to leave the ringer on when people are ttying to enjoy their meals.
"pull my finger" - Uncle Chuckles
My dad was on a cell phone sometimes 4 hours a day for work for years since they first came out and he died from a rare glio blastoma brain tumor. I know when you lose a loved one you look for some reason and in your grief too often you look for someone or thing to blame. The insane litagation train not even being addressed here, I can't help but feel that if this was not the cause of my Dads brain tumor it most certainly aggravated the situation.
Mark J. Panick -Eat Flaming Death Fascist Media Pigs- Philip Proctor aka Firesign Theatre
For everyone clamoring for more facts, the article hasn't been published yet. It should appear in the November issue of Bioelectromagnetics. It seems that you can get the full text for free at their website, but it's possible that I only had access because my university has a site license or something. There is, however, an older study by the same group that looks very similar: Abstract and full text.
For what it's worth, this test with the milk is a standard measure in learning and memory studies called the Morris Water Maze. I personally know lots of people who use this test on a daily basis. You put the mice or rats in a white chamber with opaque water (that's what the powdered milk is for). There are black symbols painted on the walls of the chamber. The platform is submerged in the opaque water, and the only way the animals should be able to find it is by remembering where it is in relation to the symbols painted on the walls. This is therefore a test for spatial learning and memory. Usually the animals undergo two sessions a day. You can measure spatial learning by noting the decreases in the animals' "search time." You can test for long-term memory by removing the platform several days later, and noting how long the animals spend in the spot where the platform used to be. There are lots of other variations on this theme.
It has been shown that things which disrupt human learning and memory also disrupt performance on this test. Results from these studies also correlate well with another learning and memory test called the Barnes Maze. It's been used so much by so many people, I seriously doubt there is some "milk effect" skewing the results.
Just my $.02,
-margaret
Hope this doesn't apply to Nextels, otherwise in a year or two I'll be more out of it than Ronald Reagan on morphine.
-witz
jeez all that tells me is not to find myself swimming in a sea of milk.
Note:
the scientists were so excited that their dumbass experiment actually had results, they ran out of the lab and the unlucky mice were left to find the platform. it proved difficult, tho, as the newly formed tumors in their brains made swimming quite a task.
Another result:
inhaling milk does not cure cancer.
Look out honey, 'cause I'm using technology; Ain't got time to make no apology
Of the 8 rats that my sister kept as pets through the years when we were growing up, 4 died naturally of tumors. I always take studies involving lab rats with a grain of salt now.
Read the damn article, man. It clearly says that the mice who weren't exposed to microwave ratiation could find the platform just fine. If your theory were true, all of the mice would be swimming around randomly, not being able to find the platform.
Again, the group exposed to radiation could not find the platform, and the group not exposed to radiation could find the platform.
This is what is called a "control" group. They do this specifically to rule out the sort of effect you're describing.
I can't believe this post was moderated up so high. This guy didn't even read the article...
If you were joking, I apologize. I didn't read that as "Funny," though apparently some moderator did. Maybe I missed something.
Neither am I, but upping the power for this sort of study is not going to accurately simulate longer exposure to weaker waves.
Consider the extreme example - a microwave oven damages (or, changes through heating, "damage" is a subjective term) its contents because the microwaves will heat them faster than the heat dissipates. So they get continually hotter up to a point. You can't simulate 5 hours of exposure to 1 watt of microwaves by exposing something to 36 seconds of 500 watts. If you don't believe me, leave a cellphone on for an hour (adjust depending on cellphone power) inside a rat's cage, make sure the rat is OK, and then put it in a microwave oven for 36 seconds. I guarantee that this will cause all sorts of terrible medical problems for the rat.
I sure wish I could find the study. The wired article says:
Next, half of the rats were exposed to microwaves similar to those emitted by mobile phones.
That tells me nothing. What does "similar" mean? I suspect that it means the same wavelength and a vastly higher power. (considering how seriously the rats were affected) If so, this study isn't much use in gauging the dangers of cellphones. With a cellphone, the power is low enough that the heat it adds to your head dissipates about as fast as it's being added, and you don't increase the temperature of your brain significantly. I wonder how hot the brains of these rats got.
I thought it just caused a long-term loss of manners.
So many people with cell phones seem to forget that most people at movies, operas, weddings, concerts, and parties would rather not hear them discuss the specifics of little Timmy's diaper rash.
Put my clarinet beneath your bed 'till I get back in town.
Well, as others have said... I am skeptical on listening to medical health news from Wired. But there has been a lot of talk about the possible links to cell phones and brain tumors, and now also to memory loss?... Well being in the IT industry, and constantly using my cell phone for work, as well as my personal cell phone... for everything else, this does worry me a little... Well my solution, although pretty simple, hadn't dawned on me until recently is to use one of those hands free (generally used in the car) sets for the cell phone. No matter how you look at it you are going to be exposed to some of the 'radiation' but with the hands free set/ear piece, at least that amount can be reduced especially around the head and brain, where it seems to be causing the most concern. Probably no new information for most of you, but I thought I would share.
My understanding of the research done on this is as follows. Out of the sample questioned, there was no direct corrolation to the percentage of people who used cell phones to the people that had brain tumors. That being said though, out of those who had brain tumors and who did use cell phones, there was a corrolation as to where the tumor formed, and which side of head the tumour formed on, and which ear the person generally use to talk on their cell phone. Unfortunately I dont have a link to this, but this was my understanding of the recent research that was done.
I was gonna write something insightful..
but i forgot what.
[Ring, Ring]
--
rJames.org - illustration
ya, tell me about it.
this karma thing is really getting me down.
back to -1 karma?.. AGAIN?
--
rJames.org - illustration
Good thing Chris killed Hemos' cell phone, then. *grin*
"There's nothing in that bucket." **ploop**
There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for one star differeth fro
Did the researcher throw the rats into a microwave oven and cook them for a minute?
The article mentions that the rats were exposed to microwave radiation similar to that emitted by cell phones. How similar? How much radiation? Why didn't the researcher simply turn on a cell phone in the midst of the rats? Just put them in a small box with a couple of active cell phones. That seems easy enough. But that's not what the article says they did. The article only says they were exposed to microwave radiation somehow similar (how?) to cell phone radiation. For all we know the rats were thrown into a microwave oven. All this would prove is that you shouldn't put your head into a microwave oven right after you've finished studying for an exam.
What do you call a pile of rats in a bowl of milk?
One gross breakfast cereal.
For years there's been speculation that EMF is harmful to the human body, and that children living under power lines have greater incidences of lukemia and other assorted problems... (I don't have a cite, but I can attempt to find one). Now they do some clinical research into America's favourite toy, the cellphone. Slashdot's reaction is what I'd expect - "My toy can't be harmful, let's laugh about the idea of swimming in milk!"
People have some very strange ideas about health precautions. When it affects their favourite convenience items, they discount it outright. When someone could make a bunch of money off of it (class action lawsuits) suddenly it becomes interesting. Shouldn't we be pushing manufacturers to address real health issues with products (something which took 50 some years for the tobacco industry to do) rather than simply looking for a handout for our brain tumours that result?
I'm not saying the study was valid or invalid, god knows Wired news is never going to report enough detail to determine that, being a sensationalistic media outlet like all the rest. Until the public demands more information and research from the companies making these products, we put ourselves at the mercy of their marketers. Do people really care a lot more about the money they could get from some class actions suit than about the possible damage they're doing to their bodies? My boyfriend uses a cellphone almost exclusively - so this *scares* me more than makes me think of an 'opportunity.'
Devices are required to be adequately sheilded for non-interference with other electronic devices - and yet when a cellphone rings near a computer, observe the monitor flicker, the speakers pop... obviously the signals are strong enough to interfere with properly sheilded devices. Why aren't these phones better sheilded to begin with? To satisfy our obsession with miniaturization?
Oh well, now I'm ranting. I find this quite disturbing, and the reaction even more so.
The thing that worries me is that everyone says that EM radiation is harmless unless it's strong enought to actually cook body tissue, yet it can be used to shut down a computer or a computer run car from long distance. And most cars use onboard computers nowadays.
Those detectors under traffic lights can even interfere with the breaks on pre ~1970 ford trucks.
or cause people to hear a low frequency hum.
Supposedly they've done a lot of research on non-ionizing radiation and declared it 'safe'.
Personaly, I've always wondered.
___
It's the end of my comment as I know it and I feel fine.
The thing that worries me is that everyone says that EM radiation is harmless unless it's strong enought to actually cook body tissue, yet it can be used to shut down a computer or a computer run car from long distance. And most cars use onboard computers nowadays.
Those detectors under traffic lights can even interfere with the breaks on pre ~1970 ford trucks.
or cause people to hear a low frequency hum.
Supposedly they've done a lot of research on non-ionizing radiation and declared it 'safe'.
"History is a selective interpertation of events intended to justify those currently in power. Memory is the same thing on an individual scale"
Personaly, I've always wondered.
___
It's the end of my comment as I know it and I feel fine.
The thing that worries me is that everyone says that EM radiation is harmless unless it's strong enought to actually cook body tissue, yet it can be used to shut down a computer or a computer run car from long distance. And most cars use onboard computers nowadays.
Those detectors under traffic lights can even interfere with the breaks on pre ~1970 ford trucks.
or cause people to hear a low frequency hum.
Supposedly they've done a lot of research on non-ionizing radiation and declared it 'safe'.
Personaly, I've always wondered.
___
It's the end of my comment as I know it and I feel fine.
Anyone know how cell phone transmissions compare to the natural radiations we get from the sun on a typical day?
You forgot to mention drinking from mugs which are more common now since car companies have placed cup holders in cars.
Personal hands free kits are available for 99% of mobiles sold in the UK for a price of around $20-$30, and a lot of companies now give them away free with the phones. The cancer/memory loss link has been talked about here for at least a year, and a lot of people now use these kits to avoid the risk.
Of course it leads to the streets being filled with people who look like they're talking to themselves...
---- Den ene knappen er powerknapp, den andre er Bender voice knapp "Bite My Shiny Metal Ass"
... if the slashdot staff use mobiles...
It's easy, if they post this topic again in two weeks because they've forgotten about it, they must have cellphones that are affecting their long term memory.
On another note, are they really sure that rats are close enough to humans for this to have any real bearing, had anyone done studies on actual humans?
Cell phone industry research has shown that the phones can cause brain tumors in humans - and the industry is trying to quash their own researcher!
In studies involving rats using cell phones while driving memory loss a proven. No rat ever remembered to use a turn signal. Exits were commonly forgotten until the very last minute, when the rats also apparently forgot that you don't cut across 2 lanes of traffic, and the double white line just to make the exit. Several other drivers in the rats' blind spot were also forgotten about.
t
I'll keep that in mind, if I ever find myself swimming in a pool of milk, searching for a platform... that it may be a bit more challenging due to my cell phone usage. However, if cell phones are going to inhibit my performance in a tub full of jello, I'm tossing my phone out right away!!! How do they come up with the ideas for these studies?
"No one knows if the chemical also controls the navigation function in humans, Lai said. There is indirect evidence, however, that the chemical controls a similar function in humans." Now I know why people with cell phones plastered to their ears drive like maniacs: they've forgotten where it was they were going :P
-------
"Every artist is a cannibal, every poet is a thief."
- Drew
- In Capitalist America, law violates YOU!
Another factor to consider -- what was the ratio of radiation:rat? The average human brain weighs several times what an entire rat weighs -- how much radiation would it take to illicit a similar effect in humans? And, perhaps more importantly, how big should the swimming pool of milk be? Still, I'd agree, worrisome ... after all, according to studies, I'm aPparently lOsing my shorT-term memory here, my ability to lEarn and concentrate there, my hearing due to my stereos, and my long-term memory due to my cell phone ... a man just can't have any convenient or enjoyable habits nowadays!
I am, therefore you think.
"The future masters of technology must be light-hearted and intelligent. The machine easily masters the grim and the
Seems the Russians, and everyone else, used the scientific we all heard about in school:
1. Dream up what it is you want to prove.
2. Think up so convaluted way of "proving" what you wish to prove.
3. Perform this experiment as many times as necessary until you have "proved" it, with "scientific error", which can be QUITE large.
4. If all else fails, return to step 1.
I did not see any mention in the article as to how much/longer this rats had their brains cooked. Lipstick has caused cancer in rats, after the subject ate a stick a day for half a year!
I don't use my cellphone anymore....partially because when I need it I can't remember where I last put it. And no one ever calls me on my cell, patially because I can't remember the number, and I can't remember how to display the number....can someone help?
"Scientists find out how to make rats forget by blasting radioactive energy to their body then throwing them into a pool of milk with nothing but a platform that resembles a slashdot hat to stand on." The more technology progresses the more it sounds like greek mythlogy. :)
Sure cook those brains with a gigawatt of microwaves and I bet those rats don't even remember how to eat, much less swim.... Never does it say just how much radiation...
Anytime something leaves my body, I enjoy it.
I think the best thing we can do for the long term finacial security of our families is to run out and buy a bunch of cell phones. Once we have developed brain tumors and memory loss we can sue the cell phone makers and bank roll it.
All hand waving and qualitive results.
I want to know the method and intensity of irradiation, the number of rats used in the study etc.
One suggested method to alleviate this problem, would be to have the ariel (sp?) on the bottom of the 'phone. It'd still work, but be further from sensitive brain cells, but the obvious solution is handsfree equipment. Give us decent voice recognition and we're sorted. "Phone bob... *click*click* hi bob, i'm stuck in traffic..." etc.
I think I'll wait for NewScientist Coverage.
-Yarn - Rio Karma: Excellent
There are several studies on the 'net that prove pretty conclusively that driving is impaired (and accident rates, consequently, rise) when people are distracted. (Yes, I know, that seems pretty common sense, but, hell, so does waiting until you get home to make a phone call.)
Stupid people piss me off.
- A.P.
--
"One World, one Web, one Program" - Microsoft promotional ad
"Remember when the U.S. had a drug problem, and then we declared a War On Drugs, and now you can't buy drugs anymore?"
I wouldn't be able to swim to a platform in a pool of milk either.
I think that it is fair to make companies liable ex post facto (after the fact). Even if no malice is present, their product did cause damage through normal operation. It's the same argument where tobacco companies would be liable for cancer deaths (which they are) and Ford would be liable for exploding Pintos (which it was).
I don't know about this. The idea is that Tobacco Companies knew and intentionally withheld evidence of the deadliness of tobacco, and Ford either knew or was negligent in not knowing that their cars went boom.
The general scientific consensus for years has been that EM in any strength is completely harmless. The concept that it might not be is rather alien.
Imagine if Slashdot's color/font choices caused breakdown in mental stability in some portion of the population. Should CmdrTaco be liable?
Yours Truly,
Dan Kaminsky
DoxPara Research
http://www.doxpara.com
Rats do possess much, much thinner skulls.
That being said, one has to wonder about the structure and function of this type of memory, if ostensibly harmless frequency exposure can cause this kind of damage.
Is it fair to make companies liable ex post facto, incidentally? If I have no knowledge that my behavior could cause serious problems, and I make a good faith effort to both discover problems and handle the problem as best I can be expected, should I be liable?
How did they deliver the Microwave radiation? Any chance there were distracting harmonics only audible to the rats that might have polluted the study?
Yeah, this is pretty worrisome.
Yours Truly,
Dan Kaminsky
DoxPara Research
http://www.doxpara.com
This is what really annoys me about science. Rats swimming around? I guess at some basic biological level we have certain similarities talking on cell phones with rats swimming. But the truth is is that cell-phones haven't been around long enough for any sort of long-term study (on humans), and they're really just freaking everyone out for no reason.
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"Some people say that I proved if you get a C average, you can end up being successful in life."
I think there is a world market for maybe five personal web logs.
I just saw cell phones covered on Dateline (I think... one of those shows). They pointed out that while cell phones are required to keep their radiation levels within specified safety limits, the manufacturers get to do all the tests themselves and no one (not even the FCC) confirms the results... so Dateline did.
Depending on HOW you hold the phone, many phones far exceeded the safety limits. Moving the mouthpiece a little closer to your chin will vary the orientation of the antenna and can dramatically increase or decrease your exposure.
They also mentioned that one manufacturer (don't reacall who) had created a headset that plugs into the phone. The phone itself (and all its potentially harmful radiation) is kept far away from your noggin.
Just keep that antenna away from your skull and you'll be fine.
-- Don't Tase me, bro!
... maybe they should've phoned for directions.
Once again, evil RF radiation comes in to destroy our minds, give us brain cancer, and generally mess up our bodies.
This is crap science reporting. (Since I haven't read the scientific paper, I can't judge the science). It is possible that low level RF from cell phones had an effect on the rat's ability to find the platform in the middle of the milk, but I don't see how one can conclude that memory is what was affected. How about directional sense or motor coordination?
I still maintain that standing in sunlight complaining about radiation from your cell phone is like calling your neighbor during a hurricane to complain that his cat is breathing on your trees.
Until you have an etiology whereby RF causes harm to your brain, you can't say RF is the cause.
The effects of RF at thes power levels and distances from your neurons is so miniscule. Until you show me a physiological change in brain tissue exposed to RF, I just don't buy it.
Boo! Raaayyydiayyyytion! Boo!
What's hitting you when your turn on a light? Radiation! What's hitting you when you stand in the sun? Radiation (really broadband radiation, too, from DC to daylight)! Radiation is nothing but energy in motion, either in photons (RF, aka "light") or in massive particles (alpha and beta particles, protons, neutrons, or electrons moving at high speeds).
Radiation can really only affect you in a few ways. It can raise your temperature, it can break chemical bonds, or it can cause nuclear change. The first effect is the most common and happens at lower energies (like those in cell phones). The second is an electron effect and happens at higher energies. The third is a nuclear effect at happens at really high energies where neutrons are forced into atomic nuclei making, possibly, unstable isotopes out of stable ones. This last one is quite rare and I don't think any terrestrial RF source has that kind of energy (I'm not a physicist, can this happen at cosmic ray energies?). The second and third effects just don't happen at energies this low. (Actually, I would guess that the second could happen VERY RARELY through some phonon effect or somesuch -- can an educated person help me out here?)
Anyways, I still think this is way overhyped. You get more harmful radiation working in a granite building. If you're really scared, get a mag mount antenna (if you double the distance between your head and the antenna, your reduce the dose to 1/4th, triple it, 1/9th, and so on -- inverse square law, remember?) and keep your calls short.
;-)
cpeterso
Erm, yeah. I have, erm... what's that number after one... two, in fact ;)
:)
No, the real problem was using Konqueror as a browser (kfm) to post an article with a broken < in it rather than < or something like that. Woops
~Tim
--
Rushing on down to the circle of the turn
I heard it on local radio many years ago (watching them use them :)
~Tim
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Rushing on down to the circle of the turn
Yes, it was an attempt at humor. No offense was intended to those gastrointestinally impaired or otherwise sensitive to such a subject.
... that's why it's "over-rated" now ... or maybe THEY didn't read my post and simply moderated down due to other's not getting it. We are all sheep at one time or another I guess.
Obviously someone else with moderator points didn't get it either
It's not the cell phone's microwaves that cause the problems, it's that most mice are lactose intolerant and they are swimming aimlessly around due to the gas the milk is giving them.
If you've ever attached a balloon to a small boat, put it in water, then let it go you'll understand what I'm saying and why the mice swim in circles.
The article points out that this radiation is not exactly the same as cell-phone radiation; I'd be interested in seeing what the differences are.
Let's also not get too worked up about one study; the results of just one study are not definitive (in either direction).
"You can never have too many elephants on your team."
Just remember: To make up for any damage from cell-phone radiation, just eat more mashed potatoes.
Tell your friends about xenu.net
There is a credible body of experimental work which links acetylcholine to memory (consolidation and retrieval). However, you're correct, the article does not successfully link in the experiment with the pre-existing evidence - although he tries hard to insinuate it.
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There is no premature anti-fascism. -Ernest Hemingway
"After a glass of 2% I just forget all my complaints about the government, its very relaxing. Have some, its bliiiisssss..."
Hmm.. I now know why people on the freeway seem to forget how to drive the moment the cell-phone touches their ear.
.sig: Now legally binding!
Meanwhile, my cell phone and brains work ok, but memory loss and symptoms of radiation sickness are observed after alcohol consumption.
To be honest, I'm more than a little leery about trusting science news from Wired (or any other 'news' source, for that matter). It would have been nice to have some more info of the experiment.
Now speculation.
The big problem, IMO, with applying these results to humans is that we shouldn't have to. If cell-phone use results in memory loss, cell-phone users should have noticed something a long time ago (or people studying cell-phone users, anyway). And conversely, it should be simple enough to verify the results by studying cell-phone users. Considering that lab rats seem to be vulnerable to everything known to man, I'm not really convinced.
I'm not one to disparage the scientific method, but the more important fact is what particular mechanism in RF exposure to the brain might be causing the acetylcholine deficit.
We can start the process of generalizing and extending theories when we know the how and why of the subject. Alone, this experiment is scientific trivia: not uninteresting, but unattached to the greater body of knowledge.
I'd think that knowledge of this mechanism would be important for a fair bit more than cell phones - think about all the things that we use which give off some kind of signal. This makes further research in this vein quite relevant and necessary.
Likewise, we should consider the nature of the study data. Is it replicable to humans, most importantly. Although ethics considerations may preclude testing directly, evidence of a long-term memory deficit could possibly be teased out of an epidemiological or statistical study.
In any case, my own cell phone is staying where it usually does: in my coat pocket and turned off.
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There is no premature anti-fascism. -Ernest Hemingway
The research is sound and valid. It clearly shows that:
Yuppies who use cell-phones in their endless effort to win the rat-race while buoyed up by the milk of human kindness, tend to forget the ethical platform, their veritable solid ground in a shifting, fluid sea of corporate mentality, and become wife-beating dead-beat dads and absentee fathers who do not contribute to society in the slightest.
Actually, we need to remember (hard to do, since we use cell-phones) that dairy products are high in fat, which is bad for you.
If I was forced to swim around in a pool of milk, I'd have a hard time remembering things as well.
Reminds me of an old joke about a Russian scientist experimenting with flies.
1. Remove fly wings so it doesn't escape, and place fly on table.
2. Move hands towards fly: Observed that fly walks away.
3. Remove a leg from the fly.
4. Place fly on table.
5. repeat steps 2 thru 4 as needed.
Conclusion: After the removal of all legs, the fly becomes conditioned not to fear hands.
-- What you do today will cost you a day of your life.