Users turn to professional help when they don't know what to do or how to do it. If their machine is letting them access the Internet, not popping up 100 windows a minute, and they aren't getting spammed to death, they aren't going to just invent new reasons to spend more money on the computer. That's like saying "Whoaa.. my car's working great! I better replace the gas tank!" Yes, there is a small set of the population that "upgrades" their car, but the vast majority of people just want the thing to get them from A to B without breaking. So long as that happens, they aren't going to put an extra dime into the machine. From my experience, the same principle applies to computers.
I don't think this has anything to do with what I meant. I gave a bit more realistic example, and reading it over, I can't see any indication of what you are replying to.
Somehow I doubt that everyone currently wiping machines (this includes corporate IT, compusa types, and small shops) would be able to find the same amount of work providing other services, such as your example of application installation.
You're right, because users would never screw anything up anyways. They'll sit there, in their comfortable chairs, and happily stare at the screen. But wait! In this discussion, I recall, we assume that they are educated. Which means they know of at least a few things that the computer does. Naw... they'll never have those needs, wants, curiosities.
You'd rather fix box after box after box rather than actually make any of them do anything useful? If the mindless work wasn't necessary, computer users will find a reason to go and get "professional" work done for them.
Say, for example, an (hypothetical) app is "not user friendly" when it comes to an install. Something for a job. It would be nice, if I knew nothing about the latest and greatest OS, to come to a small shop where people do this for a living, and have them set it up professionally on a computer to my needs.
Instead people are wasting their time and money going to same shop where someone runs his standard set of programs for a price tag of $50/h or above. Worse is that now, people are convinced that that is what doing work on a computer is all about, and don't even concider that such possibilities could exist for them.
So basically I don't think anyone will be out of a job, it's just that the job's focus will be shifted.
Is it just me, or is POSIX is what's missing here? Correct me if I'm wrong POSIX was derived to be the standard which proprietary UNIX systems were to adhere to (at first). Which was then also adopted for Linux, which made it essentially a UNIX, by default. Technically, it's "extremely compatible" but who really cares?
Which is why I agree with you. The trend is that it's replacing already existing UNIX's. Wouldn't count the *BSD's out though, they are good systems, and have solid philosophies behind them.
Of course... how silly of me to even bother comparing.
Seriously though, I'm just saying it's doable. True, I'm a bit more informed, but it's all in the approach. I've been able to get some people at least intrigued, rather than scared away. For the most part though, they don't care about the computer, so they won't spend the energy. If the default was a well setup open source system, I doubt they'd bother doing anything about its setup. Essentially, that's all they want, not to do anything.
Windows/Linux/Blah blah blah... whatever.. they all require you to do "something". I have my preferences, and it all has to do with the tools each provides. I strugled for years, as a high school geek, to find software that would actually be of any interest to me. It proved to be futile, as I hit the $$$ road-block everytime there something useful. Strangly, I no longer feel this way, as it happens, other people, in my position, ended up developing these tools, which I now use freely.
And so on and so forth with the personal stories...
I am your average college kid, and I am buying a lap top that will run Linux (only) specifically for school, and so that I can do my work on the go. And yes, the school is a windows school, meh.
This is an actual study. I'm too lazy to look anything up, but it did make it to my psychology class. In fact, it is recent, and only now getting credibility.
When you are doing something that requires you to think through to a solution of something, the physical effect that has on your brain the cells make new paths to other cells. This is incredibely slow at an old age, but it still occures. People who continually use their mind to solve problems, and engage in various mental activities have a sort of more "entangled" brain structure.
Dementia is the deterioration of those pathways. The more pathways you have develepoed throughout your lifetime, the more of them must deteriorate before you lose your mind.
The same way you know that it isn't about junk food, it's about how much of it you eat.
All chemical compounds have their effects and side-effects. Taking LSD once in a blue moon isn't going to do a hell of a lot more to you in the long run than having a few beers once in a while.
In either case, if habit forms, it doesn't matter whether it's alcohol (being MUCH more readily available), or LSD (being much more potent) that destroys your body. You can even get dimentia in either case. Can't say the same for pot, there are no recorded cases where pot was responsible for something like that.
It sounds like the good ol' days could just be that kick needed to get the train going... somewhere. Honestly, if you just close your eyes, and imagine the network, and the infections it carries, it looks like a waste land. One of these infections will be big, and *then* [hopefuly] there will be a "patch" of global proportions (after significant data loss).
"If you constructed a neural network in a computer the size of the brain, which could probably be done now, do you think you could fit 80 years of video in it somehow?"
I'm afraid that your sad, personal experience with Fedora is no testimony on the use, or lack of, of a Linux system. You were suffering from a poorley configured system. The configuration did not account for easy future package installations/maintenance.
Your claim to XP and Tiger are highly opinionated, but hardly reasonable. Bare in mind that Open Source desktop systems generally keep a different requirment set than that of XP or Tiger. Some functions overlap, and others do not. Frankly, I can change all that anyway, as I have more options for change on the Open Source system. You see, that *is* the open source requirement, to be able to change anything concievable. This only means that more abstract tools are bound to come later, and rightly so. I suspect that when they do mature, they will be quality tools.
Leave the kids out of it. If they know what they're doing, they'll get a job. I couldn't imagine keeping it on the sideline. And now, despite the fact that I live nowhere, and despite the fact that I'm still in college, I am programming. Sure as hell beats washing dishes.
If you ask me, the only thing I concider to be helpful is the attitude I have towards what I do. I figure my job to be a trade, and magically, it all makes sense (including the wage I get for my efforts).
The "reboot" is an ancient ritual practiced today by people calling themselves "users". It involves a complete shutdown of something called a "wintell" and the power on, of the same object.
Personally, I would have loved enlightenment amongst these "users", but the cult is too strong.
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I still think that the deterring effect is questionable. It's a band-aid solution to an underliying problem. Usually, any social problem, has its roots in communication, or lack thereof.
I take it you're an idealist. That's ok, so am I. But what you say is just not practical. Consequnces can be dealt with quietly. Giving fame is what causes the glorification. There's just no escaping that one. So it was a mistake to blow this out of proportion.
Punishing the parent is a horrible idea. Lets say your kid does something stupid that costs millions in damages, however, at home, everything had always seemed to be normal. How exactly did you do anything wrong? You didn't snoop? You gave trust? You should feel guilt for trusting when you shouldn't have? What would be the reason? This is so arbitrary, because like it or not, kids, are just like any other person, only "in development". Yours or mine, they'll have their own minds.
The deterant effect of punishment is questionable.
In your own words, you proved my point, not only are the prisons over filled, they're overfilled with repeat offenders. 1. Deterant of punishment???? 2. You're paying for it. Obviously, at your expence, the prisons do nothing of actual value to those involved.
I think the one thing I agree with you on, is that they are clowns. And not very bright ones.
So, of course, the logical course of action is punishment? That's the only way to solve a problem? That's the mentality that will put more people into a prison system that cannot sustain them. Good luck.
Forgive me, but I still fail to understand why this should not be handled with simplicity and minimal uproar. All this is doing is glorifying an otherwise insignificant event. Now these kids have fame. Talk about a waste of money and attention span... again.
Not about power? Pass the pipe... I guess. But more seriously, that's not true. This isn't a difficult situation, and worse, they didn't do anything other than provide useful information to those that can actually do something about it. Your problem is that you are generalizing when you can't. These were specific people (not just kids, as they are being just regular people in this case), who set forth in motion a specific course of action. That is, they *notified* the appropriate people, that can *do something* about it. What is this concequence that they should have concidered? Why shouldn't it stop right there and then? There's nothing that these "kids" are going to do more, especially if rewarded rather than prosecuted. So yeah... pass that pipe.
I take it you hear "game" you see "pretty graphics". That's even more sad than what those kids said. Games can come in any flavour, and any complexity. In a classroom setting, the point isn't make the next best seller. A simple text game is just as good.
Then he should get a play station. Your point does not change the fact the computer is NOT an easy to use appliance, and the consumer has been brainwashed to think it is.
A PC tower is general purpose, which means it NEEDS configuration. A system not allowing you to configure it bit by bit is a crippled system. Why is ignorance a reason to cripple a perfectly functional concept that is Linux?
Again, of joe blow wants to play games, joe blow is better off getting something that plays only games, not something as general purpose as a PC, that's overkill. In this case, I think, the best tool for joe (if he wants that interweb) would be a mac.
Root password is not necessary, nor is running as root. Linux does NOT bother you in the same manner windows ballons pop up all the time (anyone know how to get rid of that????).
The reason things don't work if you're not an Administrator on windows is because the good ol' marketing folk decided some time ago that multiuser systems are not necessary for Mr. Bob. So when they finally added it in, it was late, and crude, and, as usual [imho] is nothing more than a "feature" rather than a function.
Linux is UNIX clone. It was designed for multiple users from the start.
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I don't think this has anything to do with what I meant. I gave a bit more realistic example, and reading it over, I can't see any indication of what you are replying to.
Somehow I doubt that everyone currently wiping machines (this includes corporate IT, compusa types, and small shops) would be able to find the same amount of work providing other services, such as your example of application installation.
You're right, because users would never screw anything up anyways. They'll sit there, in their comfortable chairs, and happily stare at the screen. But wait! In this discussion, I recall, we assume that they are educated. Which means they know of at least a few things that the computer does. Naw... they'll never have those needs, wants, curiosities.
Say, for example, an (hypothetical) app is "not user friendly" when it comes to an install. Something for a job. It would be nice, if I knew nothing about the latest and greatest OS, to come to a small shop where people do this for a living, and have them set it up professionally on a computer to my needs.
Instead people are wasting their time and money going to same shop where someone runs his standard set of programs for a price tag of $50/h or above. Worse is that now, people are convinced that that is what doing work on a computer is all about, and don't even concider that such possibilities could exist for them.
So basically I don't think anyone will be out of a job, it's just that the job's focus will be shifted.
In that case, it have been KISS...
Which is why I agree with you. The trend is that it's replacing already existing UNIX's. Wouldn't count the *BSD's out though, they are good systems, and have solid philosophies behind them.
Cheers.
Seriously though, I'm just saying it's doable. True, I'm a bit more informed, but it's all in the approach. I've been able to get some people at least intrigued, rather than scared away. For the most part though, they don't care about the computer, so they won't spend the energy. If the default was a well setup open source system, I doubt they'd bother doing anything about its setup. Essentially, that's all they want, not to do anything.
Windows/Linux/Blah blah blah... whatever.. they all require you to do "something". I have my preferences, and it all has to do with the tools each provides. I strugled for years, as a high school geek, to find software that would actually be of any interest to me. It proved to be futile, as I hit the $$$ road-block everytime there something useful. Strangly, I no longer feel this way, as it happens, other people, in my position, ended up developing these tools, which I now use freely.
And so on and so forth with the personal stories...
cheers
I am your average college kid, and I am buying a lap top that will run Linux (only) specifically for school, and so that I can do my work on the go. And yes, the school is a windows school, meh.
When you are doing something that requires you to think through to a solution of something, the physical effect that has on your brain the cells make new paths to other cells. This is incredibely slow at an old age, but it still occures. People who continually use their mind to solve problems, and engage in various mental activities have a sort of more "entangled" brain structure.
Dementia is the deterioration of those pathways. The more pathways you have develepoed throughout your lifetime, the more of them must deteriorate before you lose your mind.
All chemical compounds have their effects and side-effects. Taking LSD once in a blue moon isn't going to do a hell of a lot more to you in the long run than having a few beers once in a while.
In either case, if habit forms, it doesn't matter whether it's alcohol (being MUCH more readily available), or LSD (being much more potent) that destroys your body. You can even get dimentia in either case. Can't say the same for pot, there are no recorded cases where pot was responsible for something like that.
It sounds like the good ol' days could just be that kick needed to get the train going... somewhere. Honestly, if you just close your eyes, and imagine the network, and the infections it carries, it looks like a waste land. One of these infections will be big, and *then* [hopefuly] there will be a "patch" of global proportions (after significant data loss).
Your claim to XP and Tiger are highly opinionated, but hardly reasonable. Bare in mind that Open Source desktop systems generally keep a different requirment set than that of XP or Tiger. Some functions overlap, and others do not. Frankly, I can change all that anyway, as I have more options for change on the Open Source system. You see, that *is* the open source requirement, to be able to change anything concievable. This only means that more abstract tools are bound to come later, and rightly so. I suspect that when they do mature, they will be quality tools.
If you ask me, the only thing I concider to be helpful is the attitude I have towards what I do. I figure my job to be a trade, and magically, it all makes sense (including the wage I get for my efforts).
Personally, I would have loved enlightenment amongst these "users", but the cult is too strong.
I don't have IE, you insensitive clod.
I still think that the deterring effect is questionable. It's a band-aid solution to an underliying problem. Usually, any social problem, has its roots in communication, or lack thereof.
Punishing the parent is a horrible idea. Lets say your kid does something stupid that costs millions in damages, however, at home, everything had always seemed to be normal. How exactly did you do anything wrong? You didn't snoop? You gave trust? You should feel guilt for trusting when you shouldn't have? What would be the reason? This is so arbitrary, because like it or not, kids, are just like any other person, only "in development". Yours or mine, they'll have their own minds.
The deterant effect of punishment is questionable.
In your own words, you proved my point, not only are the prisons over filled, they're overfilled with repeat offenders. 1. Deterant of punishment???? 2. You're paying for it. Obviously, at your expence, the prisons do nothing of actual value to those involved.
I think the one thing I agree with you on, is that they are clowns. And not very bright ones.
Forgive me, but I still fail to understand why this should not be handled with simplicity and minimal uproar. All this is doing is glorifying an otherwise insignificant event. Now these kids have fame. Talk about a waste of money and attention span... again.
Not about power? Pass the pipe... I guess. But more seriously, that's not true. This isn't a difficult situation, and worse, they didn't do anything other than provide useful information to those that can actually do something about it. Your problem is that you are generalizing when you can't. These were specific people (not just kids, as they are being just regular people in this case), who set forth in motion a specific course of action. That is, they *notified* the appropriate people, that can *do something* about it. What is this concequence that they should have concidered? Why shouldn't it stop right there and then? There's nothing that these "kids" are going to do more, especially if rewarded rather than prosecuted. So yeah... pass that pipe.
Your sig. sir, is as terrible as your sarcasm.
I use linux. Where does that leave your argument? Numbers change, and you can't speak for everyone.
It's been years, but I still see those graphs in my sleep. Thank god I'm not alone.
Hehe... I like talking to myself too...
I take it you hear "game" you see "pretty graphics". That's even more sad than what those kids said. Games can come in any flavour, and any complexity. In a classroom setting, the point isn't make the next best seller. A simple text game is just as good.
A PC tower is general purpose, which means it NEEDS configuration. A system not allowing you to configure it bit by bit is a crippled system. Why is ignorance a reason to cripple a perfectly functional concept that is Linux?
Again, of joe blow wants to play games, joe blow is better off getting something that plays only games, not something as general purpose as a PC, that's overkill. In this case, I think, the best tool for joe (if he wants that interweb) would be a mac.
The reason things don't work if you're not an Administrator on windows is because the good ol' marketing folk decided some time ago that multiuser systems are not necessary for Mr. Bob. So when they finally added it in, it was late, and crude, and, as usual [imho] is nothing more than a "feature" rather than a function.
Linux is UNIX clone. It was designed for multiple users from the start.