Since you are so well informed (and well mannered), I have a question for you.
If Edward Snowden could steal 1.7 million documents and sneak them out of the NSA, why couldn't he manage to steal copies of his emails showing that he raised the issues that he claims? If he had, then people wouldn't have to engage in these sort of fishing expeditions. But for some reason it appears it either wasn't able to do that, or the emails don't exist.
Since he has already leaked documents on the programs he objected to you would think he could also release the emails showing that he objected to them... if those emails actually existed... and he had them.
He has tens or hundreds of thousands of documents on the intelligence programs of America's allies, a million and a half on America's intelligence programs and technology, but not a couple of emails that he himself wrote. Quite odd.
Any thoughts on that?
By the way, you should probably leave the word "civilized" out of your reply, I'm not sure you're qualified to use it.
Yeah, this smells like NSA trying to hide that Snowden did in fact try to bring up the issue through official channels, before he leaked documents to the public.
When will Snowden leak his emails? He's already leaked the documents on the programs he supposedly complained about.
How did he not manage to get his emails when he stole 1.7 million documents?
Isn't it... "odd"... that Snowden could manage to steal 1.7 million documents, but apparently didn't manage to get copies of his own emails showing his alleged attempts to raise the issues through official channels? Now I wonder why that might be?
You don't think it could be because even if he did "raise the issue" of legality he was given the reasons why they were legal and chose to steal the documents anyway?
The answer to that question requires you to define which specific traits you're asking for.
I think the question should go to the person that claims that the US is a police state when that clearly isn't true.
The so-called "dragnet surveillance," by which I assume you are referring to NSA programs, is focused on terrorism and has at most limited relevance to criminal investigations, and none with political oppression.
US police forces aren't militarized. The US doesn't even have any gendarmes as many European countries do. Many US police forces, especially larger ones, do have a Special Weapons And Tactics (SWAT) team, but in many cases it will be a part time duty, and in either case it represents a small part of the police department. They don't have the right to enter houses based on "assumptions," they have to get a warrant just like any other police officers minus any unusual events that would provide an existing legal exception. The main controversy is in their overuse to conduct raids and searches which would have been handled differently in the past, along with various unfortunate incidents. It is a technique that in my opinion is overused, but that is a different matter than constituting a "police state."
If you want to go by those sorts of criteria, then most of Europe is a police state, and has been for a very long time. European countries have gendarmes, not the US. European countries engage in widespread surveillance over terrorism as well.
The Internet entrepreneur and his fellow defendants— Finn Batato, Mathias Ortmann and Bram van der Kolk —were due to appear in a New Zealand court at the end of July for a hearing on whether they would be sent to the U.S. to face charges including criminal copyright infringement, money laundering and conspiracy to commit racketeering.
It is ridiculous to pretend that extraordinary rendition is a threat to the rights of typical Europeans. Or did I miss a trend in Europe to join international terrorist groups?
Now look at what the claim was that I responded to: "The difference is that it is America that is a direct threat to my personal freedom and the personal freedom of much of the world."
Are you really going to try to claim that nonsense it true? If you want to do that I think you're going to have to cast a much wider net than a small handful of disputed extradition cases, including ones connected with terrorism.
In this analysis of the genocide rhetoric employed over the years by Ward Churchill, an ethnic studies professor at the University of Colorado, a "distressing" conclusion is reached: Churchill has habitually committed multiple counts of research misconduct—specifically, fabrication and falsification. While acknowledging the "politicization" of the topic and evidence of other outrages committed against Native American tribes in times past, this study examines the different versions of the "smallpox blankets" episode published by Churchill between 1994 and 2003. The "preponderance of evidence" standard of proof strongly indicates that Churchill fabricated events that never occurred—namely the U.S. Army's alleged distribution of smallpox infested blankets to the Mandan Indians in 1837. The analysis additionally reveals that Churchill falsified sources to support his fabricated version of events, and also concealed evidence in his cited sources that actually disconfirms, rather than substantiates, his allegations of genocide.
There were "Occupy" activists that were pepper sprayed, and some were jailed. It was because they were involved in rioting, trespass, resisting arrest, or some other crime or disturbance, not because of the particular political reforms they were championing... when they could manage coherence on the question.
So what are these rights of your that you think America is violating as you sit in your bedroom listening to cracked DVDs on your computer? Do you think the US will invade because of it?
WW2 and the Iraq war weren't fought over DVD pirating.
You don't seem to be acquainted with the concept of sovereignty. Law contains rights and responsibilities, but in general any body of law is limited to the territory of the sovereign government that created the law. American law governs America. Canadian law governs Canada. Finnish law governs Finland. Canadian law doesn't govern Finland, Germany, or America. Finnish law doesn't govern Italy or Cuba. The law of the sea is a special case. (I wouldn't be surprised if you are a pirate even if you don't sail the seas looking for mischief.)
If the legal protections of your country apply to Americans, why aren't lawyers from your embassy assisting Americans accused of crimes? Where are the social welfare payments? Do you suppose it is possible that the rights of citizens or residents of your nation don't apply to Americans in America?
If America truly does threaten your freedoms I assume you must be doing something unsavory and special.
If it did start a war it would almost certainly be short. I'm inclined to believe that Martians would immediately surrender under a bombardment like that.
Anything coming out of the U.S. is a threat to everybody else's national security.
That sort of absolutist anti-American rant is ever popular on Slashdot, but it is nonsense, rubbish. It is like listening to a teenager chafing under parental authority complain that his parents are worse than Hitler when it is with practical certainly not true.
The US has helped keep the free world free since the end of World War 2, and some people resent that and the failure of their preferred ideology.
Just launch simple, dumb, and cheap unguided rockets from the Gaza Strip. Isreal has an "Iron Dome" defense system that is supposedly pretty effective at stopping them -- at $1,000,000 per shot. Great way to bankrupt an enemy...
That assumes you never take out the rocket launchers, their crews, or the ammunition depots with artillery fire or a bomb. I hear the Israelis have been known to do that. They also intercept the weapons at sea.
Last week, commandos from the Israeli naval forces intercepted and captured a Panamanian-flagged civilian cargo ship, called the KLOS-C, in the Red Sea near Sudan. It was carrying 181 mortar shells, around 400,000 rounds of ammunition, and 40 M-302 surface-to-surface missiles with ranges of up to 100-125 miles.
And which "holocaust" was that? You'll have to be more explicit about which façade you are referring to.
I'd know I'd be feeling a slight sense of discomfort if I was a hypocritical psychopathic sophist on a scale that's positively Biblical.
If you were (are) psychopathic you probably wouldn't feel a sense of discomfort, hence the label. I can't say I've detected any signs of discomfort on your part for writing the nonsense you do, like this below:
.. twinges from the rabidly Zionist part of your brain, or do you just eat more racist popcorn while watching bombs fall on Gaza?
But according to analysts and officials, the communist-controlled People’s Republic of China operates the single largest intelligence-gathering apparatus in the world—and its growing appetite for secrets has apparently become insatiable.
From economic and military espionage to keeping tabs on exiled dissidents, China’s global spying operations are rapidly expanding. And, therefore, so is the threat. Some analysts even argue the regime—which is also gobbling up such key natural resources as farmland, energy, and minerals—has an eye on dominating the world.
Estimates on the number of spies and agents employed by the communist state vary widely. According to public statements by French author and investigative journalist Roger Faligot, who has written several books about the regime’s security services, there are around two million Chinese working directly or indirectly for China’s intelligence apparatus.
Other analysts say it would be impossible to count the exact number. ‘I doubt they know themselves,’ says Richard Fisher, a senior fellow on Asian military affairs at the Washington-based International Assessment and Strategy Center. Regardless, the number is undoubtedly extraordinary. ‘China can rightly claim to have the world’s largest, most amorphous, but also most active intelligence sector,’ he says.
Germany is full of Russian and Chinese spies working to get information about top business and technology developments, according to the country’s domestic intelligence service.
Studies show that the German economy loses around €50 billion a year as a consequence, Burkhard Even, head of the counterintelligence section of the Federal Office for the Protection of the Constitution, told the audience at a recent security forum in Bonn. . . .
There are around 80,000 Chinese people living in Germany, Even said, many of whom are commercial spies. China is also buying into, or taking over companies completely, in order to get access to new technological developments. . . . . . the Chinese were mostly active in the electronic sector. Some reports suggest the Chinese intelligence services have up to a million agents across the world collecting technical and business data to support their industries.
"It is estimated that at least 20 Foreign intelligence services are operating to some degree against UK interests. Of greatest concern are the Russians and Chinese. The number of Russian intelligence officers in London has not fallen since the Soviet times."
I understand your perspective. Nonetheless I thought he was OK as Baggage Handler #1 in Trading Places, although maybe that is the "halo effect" of being such a brilliant movie.
There's nothing "traditional" about the depth, pervasiveness, or reach of the USG's spying. If it's anything like military spending, the U.S. spends more than the rest of the planet combined.
Maybe you can use this to start bridging your information gap.
Germany is full of Russian and Chinese spies working to get information about top business and technology developments, according to the country’s domestic intelligence service.
Studies show that the German economy loses around €50 billion a year as a consequence, Burkhard Even, head of the counterintelligence section of the Federal Office for the Protection of the Constitution, told the audience at a recent security forum in Bonn.
The spying is a mix of official, intelligence service agents, and unofficial business spooks, he said.
Even estimated that of the 500 registered staff of the Russian embassy in Berlin, at least 150 were working as intelligence agents, disguised as diplomats or journalists.
He said that more than four million Russians live in the country as a whole, leaving him unable to guess at how many agents might be hidden amongst them.
But according to analysts and officials, the communist-controlled People’s Republic of China operates the single largest intelligence-gathering apparatus in the world—and its growing appetite for secrets has apparently become insatiable.
From economic and military espionage to keeping tabs on exiled dissidents, China’s global spying operations are rapidly expanding. And, therefore, so is the threat. Some analysts even argue the regime—which is also gobbling up such key natural resources as farmland, energy, and minerals—has an eye on dominating the world.
Estimates on the number of spies and agents employed by the communist state vary widely. According to public statements by French author and investigative journalist Roger Faligot, who has written several books about the regime’s security services, there are around two million Chinese working directly or indirectly for China’s intelligence apparatus.
"It is estimated that at least 20 Foreign intelligence services are operating to some degree against UK interests. Of greatest concern are the Russians and Chinese. The number of Russian intelligence officers in London has not fallen since the Soviet times."
A Whitehall source told The Sunday Telegraph that Russia uses its massive spy network as an "extension of state power" in an attempt to "further its own military and economic base".
The source said: "If a country, such as Russia or Iran, can steal a piece of software which will save it seven years in research and development then it will do so without any hesitation. Russian agents will target anybody that they believe could be useful to them. Spying is hard-wired into the country's DNA. They have been at it for centuries and they are simply not going to stop because the Cold War has ended."
Slashdot Mirror
So you are suggesting that mass murder doesn't violate anyone's rights as long as it is done by terrorists, and not the government?
Terrorist mass murder = no harm, not foul, from a civil rights perspective? You might not have that correct.
Since you are so well informed (and well mannered), I have a question for you.
If Edward Snowden could steal 1.7 million documents and sneak them out of the NSA, why couldn't he manage to steal copies of his emails showing that he raised the issues that he claims? If he had, then people wouldn't have to engage in these sort of fishing expeditions. But for some reason it appears it either wasn't able to do that, or the emails don't exist.
Since he has already leaked documents on the programs he objected to you would think he could also release the emails showing that he objected to them ... if those emails actually existed ... and he had them.
He has tens or hundreds of thousands of documents on the intelligence programs of America's allies, a million and a half on America's intelligence programs and technology, but not a couple of emails that he himself wrote. Quite odd.
Any thoughts on that?
By the way, you should probably leave the word "civilized" out of your reply, I'm not sure you're qualified to use it.
Yeah, this smells like NSA trying to hide that Snowden did in fact try to bring up the issue through official channels, before he leaked documents to the public.
When will Snowden leak his emails? He's already leaked the documents on the programs he supposedly complained about.
How did he not manage to get his emails when he stole 1.7 million documents?
You've gone off the rails. Freedom and the Constitution aren't being sacrificed. If you really think so, please describe how.
As usual you stoop to nonsense.
Isn't it ... "odd" ... that Snowden could manage to steal 1.7 million documents, but apparently didn't manage to get copies of his own emails showing his alleged attempts to raise the issues through official channels? Now I wonder why that might be?
You don't think it could be because even if he did "raise the issue" of legality he was given the reasons why they were legal and chose to steal the documents anyway?
The governments of America's allies probably care about their citizens being killed in attacks as has happened before:
Madrid train attacks
Bali death toll set at 202
7 July London attacks
And attempts to repeat that sort of thing continue:
09 Jul 2014 - Islamist plot to blow up Eiffel Tower, Louvre and nuclear power plant foiled, say French police
Mass murder is one of the worst deprivations of rights.
The pictures show it to be quite different.
The answer to that question requires you to define which specific traits you're asking for.
I think the question should go to the person that claims that the US is a police state when that clearly isn't true.
The so-called "dragnet surveillance," by which I assume you are referring to NSA programs, is focused on terrorism and has at most limited relevance to criminal investigations, and none with political oppression.
US police forces aren't militarized. The US doesn't even have any gendarmes as many European countries do. Many US police forces, especially larger ones, do have a Special Weapons And Tactics (SWAT) team, but in many cases it will be a part time duty, and in either case it represents a small part of the police department. They don't have the right to enter houses based on "assumptions," they have to get a warrant just like any other police officers minus any unusual events that would provide an existing legal exception. The main controversy is in their overuse to conduct raids and searches which would have been handled differently in the past, along with various unfortunate incidents. It is a technique that in my opinion is overused, but that is a different matter than constituting a "police state."
If you want to go by those sorts of criteria, then most of Europe is a police state, and has been for a very long time. European countries have gendarmes, not the US. European countries engage in widespread surveillance over terrorism as well.
Kim Dotcom may not be such a good example.
Kim Dotcom Extradition Decision Delayed
The Internet entrepreneur and his fellow defendants— Finn Batato, Mathias Ortmann and Bram van der Kolk —were due to appear in a New Zealand court at the end of July for a hearing on whether they would be sent to the U.S. to face charges including criminal copyright infringement, money laundering and conspiracy to commit racketeering.
It is ridiculous to pretend that extraordinary rendition is a threat to the rights of typical Europeans. Or did I miss a trend in Europe to join international terrorist groups?
Now look at what the claim was that I responded to: "The difference is that it is America that is a direct threat to my personal freedom and the personal freedom of much of the world."
Are you really going to try to claim that nonsense it true? If you want to do that I think you're going to have to cast a much wider net than a small handful of disputed extradition cases, including ones connected with terrorism.
I trust you'll be relieved to read this paper:
Did the U.S. Army Distribute Smallpox Blankets to Indians? Fabrication and Falsification in Ward Churchill's Genocide Rhetoric
Abstract
In this analysis of the genocide rhetoric employed over the years by Ward Churchill, an ethnic studies professor at the University of Colorado, a "distressing" conclusion is reached: Churchill has habitually committed multiple counts of research misconduct—specifically, fabrication and falsification. While acknowledging the "politicization" of the topic and evidence of other outrages committed against Native American tribes in times past, this study examines the different versions of the "smallpox blankets" episode published by Churchill between 1994 and 2003. The "preponderance of evidence" standard of proof strongly indicates that Churchill fabricated events that never occurred—namely the U.S. Army's alleged distribution of smallpox infested blankets to the Mandan Indians in 1837. The analysis additionally reveals that Churchill falsified sources to support his fabricated version of events, and also concealed evidence in his cited sources that actually disconfirms, rather than substantiates, his allegations of genocide.
WARD CHURCHILL
Ward Churchill was a professor at the University of Colorado at Boulder from 1990 until 2007, when he was fired for research misconduct.
There were "Occupy" activists that were pepper sprayed, and some were jailed. It was because they were involved in rioting, trespass, resisting arrest, or some other crime or disturbance, not because of the particular political reforms they were championing... when they could manage coherence on the question.
Could you expand on the nature of this "tight grip" over the free world, and the impact it has had? How do you think your freedom has been limited?
So what are these rights of your that you think America is violating as you sit in your bedroom listening to cracked DVDs on your computer? Do you think the US will invade because of it?
WW2 and the Iraq war weren't fought over DVD pirating.
The USSR tried—and failed—to breed man and chimp
Since when? Last Tuesday? Denied dessert were you?
You don't seem to be acquainted with the concept of sovereignty. Law contains rights and responsibilities, but in general any body of law is limited to the territory of the sovereign government that created the law. American law governs America. Canadian law governs Canada. Finnish law governs Finland. Canadian law doesn't govern Finland, Germany, or America. Finnish law doesn't govern Italy or Cuba. The law of the sea is a special case. (I wouldn't be surprised if you are a pirate even if you don't sail the seas looking for mischief.)
If the legal protections of your country apply to Americans, why aren't lawyers from your embassy assisting Americans accused of crimes? Where are the social welfare payments? Do you suppose it is possible that the rights of citizens or residents of your nation don't apply to Americans in America?
If America truly does threaten your freedoms I assume you must be doing something unsavory and special.
If it did start a war it would almost certainly be short. I'm inclined to believe that Martians would immediately surrender under a bombardment like that.
'We want to open up the opportunity to the entire world to participate in our mission to Mars by sending a certain payload to the surface of Mars.'"
Justin Bieber? Miley Cyrus?
Anything coming out of the U.S. is a threat to everybody else's national security.
That sort of absolutist anti-American rant is ever popular on Slashdot, but it is nonsense, rubbish. It is like listening to a teenager chafing under parental authority complain that his parents are worse than Hitler when it is with practical certainly not true.
The US has helped keep the free world free since the end of World War 2, and some people resent that and the failure of their preferred ideology.
Just launch simple, dumb, and cheap unguided rockets from the Gaza Strip. Isreal has an "Iron Dome" defense system that is supposedly pretty effective at stopping them -- at $1,000,000 per shot. Great way to bankrupt an enemy...
That assumes you never take out the rocket launchers, their crews, or the ammunition depots with artillery fire or a bomb. I hear the Israelis have been known to do that. They also intercept the weapons at sea.
Israel Intercepts Iranian Arms Shipment
Last week, commandos from the Israeli naval forces intercepted and captured a Panamanian-flagged civilian cargo ship, called the KLOS-C, in the Red Sea near Sudan. It was carrying 181 mortar shells, around 400,000 rounds of ammunition, and 40 M-302 surface-to-surface missiles with ranges of up to 100-125 miles.
Did this little act of holocaust denial ...
And which "holocaust" was that? You'll have to be more explicit about which façade you are referring to.
I'd know I'd be feeling a slight sense of discomfort if I was a hypocritical psychopathic sophist on a scale that's positively Biblical.
If you were (are) psychopathic you probably wouldn't feel a sense of discomfort, hence the label. I can't say I've detected any signs of discomfort on your part for writing the nonsense you do, like this below:
.. twinges from the rabidly Zionist part of your brain, or do you just eat more racist popcorn while watching bombs fall on Gaza?
Racist popcorn? Are you perchance "rabidly anti-Zionist"? You certainly seem to have a sort of European slant to your thinking on these matters.
The NSA and GCHQ have always wanted more info on China.
Isn't turnabout is fair play?.
China's Growing Spy Threat
But according to analysts and officials, the communist-controlled People’s Republic of China operates the single largest intelligence-gathering apparatus in the world—and its growing appetite for secrets has apparently become insatiable.
From economic and military espionage to keeping tabs on exiled dissidents, China’s global spying operations are rapidly expanding. And, therefore, so is the threat. Some analysts even argue the regime—which is also gobbling up such key natural resources as farmland, energy, and minerals—has an eye on dominating the world.
Estimates on the number of spies and agents employed by the communist state vary widely. According to public statements by French author and investigative journalist Roger Faligot, who has written several books about the regime’s security services, there are around two million Chinese working directly or indirectly for China’s intelligence apparatus.
Other analysts say it would be impossible to count the exact number. ‘I doubt they know themselves,’ says Richard Fisher, a senior fellow on Asian military affairs at the Washington-based International Assessment and Strategy Center. Regardless, the number is undoubtedly extraordinary. ‘China can rightly claim to have the world’s largest, most amorphous, but also most active intelligence sector,’ he says.
Russia, China engaging in industrial espionage
Germany is full of Russian and Chinese spies working to get information about top business and technology developments, according to the country’s domestic intelligence service.
Studies show that the German economy loses around €50 billion a year as a consequence, Burkhard Even, head of the counterintelligence section of the Federal Office for the Protection of the Constitution, told the audience at a recent security forum in Bonn. . . .
There are around 80,000 Chinese people living in Germany, Even said, many of whom are commercial spies. China is also buying into, or taking over companies completely, in order to get access to new technological developments. . . . . . the Chinese were mostly active in the electronic sector. Some reports suggest the Chinese intelligence services have up to a million agents across the world collecting technical and business data to support their industries.
"It is estimated that at least 20 Foreign intelligence services are operating to some degree against UK interests. Of greatest concern are the Russians and Chinese. The number of Russian intelligence officers in London has not fallen since the Soviet times."
Britain Warned Businesses of Threat of Chinese Spying
Canada a target-rich environment for Chinese spies
Officials say Chinese spies have targeted every sector of the U.S. economy
I understand your perspective. Nonetheless I thought he was OK as Baggage Handler #1 in Trading Places, although maybe that is the "halo effect" of being such a brilliant movie.
There are a lot of things that can only be remembered.
Sometimes there is a reason for that.
I remember there was an announcement a day or two after 9/11 that all data was now being routed through government servers.
Two reactions:
1. - What is that they say about extraordinary claims?
2. - See link above.
There's nothing "traditional" about the depth, pervasiveness, or reach of the USG's spying. If it's anything like military spending, the U.S. spends more than the rest of the planet combined.
Maybe you can use this to start bridging your information gap.
Russia, China engaging in industrial espionage
Germany is full of Russian and Chinese spies working to get information about top business and technology developments, according to the country’s domestic intelligence service.
Studies show that the German economy loses around €50 billion a year as a consequence, Burkhard Even, head of the counterintelligence section of the Federal Office for the Protection of the Constitution, told the audience at a recent security forum in Bonn.
The spying is a mix of official, intelligence service agents, and unofficial business spooks, he said.
Even estimated that of the 500 registered staff of the Russian embassy in Berlin, at least 150 were working as intelligence agents, disguised as diplomats or journalists.
He said that more than four million Russians live in the country as a whole, leaving him unable to guess at how many agents might be hidden amongst them.
China's Growing Spy Threat
But according to analysts and officials, the communist-controlled People’s Republic of China operates the single largest intelligence-gathering apparatus in the world—and its growing appetite for secrets has apparently become insatiable.
From economic and military espionage to keeping tabs on exiled dissidents, China’s global spying operations are rapidly expanding. And, therefore, so is the threat. Some analysts even argue the regime—which is also gobbling up such key natural resources as farmland, energy, and minerals—has an eye on dominating the world.
Estimates on the number of spies and agents employed by the communist state vary widely. According to public statements by French author and investigative journalist Roger Faligot, who has written several books about the regime’s security services, there are around two million Chinese working directly or indirectly for China’s intelligence apparatus.
Putin's Secret Weapon
Britain under attack from 20 foreign spy agencies including France and Germany
"It is estimated that at least 20 Foreign intelligence services are operating to some degree against UK interests. Of greatest concern are the Russians and Chinese. The number of Russian intelligence officers in London has not fallen since the Soviet times."
A Whitehall source told The Sunday Telegraph that Russia uses its massive spy network as an "extension of state power" in an attempt to "further its own military and economic base".
The source said: "If a country, such as Russia or Iran, can steal a piece of software which will save it seven years in research and development then it will do so without any hesitation. Russian agents will target anybody that they believe could be useful to them. Spying is hard-wired into the country's DNA. They have been at it for centuries and they are simply not going to stop because the Cold War has ended."
Officials say Chinese spies have targeted every sector of the U.S. economy