The name for broad, interface level testing is an "end-to-end" test.
Thanks! Seriously, I have always wondered what this was actually called!
Python should not be lumped in with PHP.
Agreed, in retrospect it shouldn't really be on that list. My apologies to the python community:(
The value of TDD is that you are encouraged to have code that does what it's supposed to do, but nothing more than that. That's because you define the expected behavior (your test case) first, then ensure your code can do that.
I see this approach working, but don't really like it. If people went _directly_ to unit tests, maybe, but in all implementations I've seen, people have to do some design work first. In this instance, it's always seemed to me that the unit test is a layer between design and code. A layer that has to be updated if any refactoring happens during implementation. I'd personally rather go right to code, and validate with traditional testing. As said though, I do understand this opinion and think it's valid.
Because 128 tests is far more work than 16 tests, it typically doesn't happen at all, leading to bugs.
I guess it depends on how much variation is needed to test each path. In the case of systems with very few inputs/outputs... it can be trivial to build a test harness that feeds it a pre-set list of inputs to test the various paths/branches. In some cases, basic logic can even generate these lists for you. In a UI driven app, I'd prefer manual procedures do to the "hey, that looks odd" factor... but I admit these arn't as thorough. I'd also note that in large systems with reasonably seperate components.. these components can be tested in the manner I talked about. I'm just generally against going down to the individual class level.
I admit I know very little python, but as I understand it, while it does track the variable types for you... it doesn't do much to prevent you from using the wrong type in the wrong spot (enter automagic to try and make it work for you).
Obviously this is a step up from no typing at all, and the bulk of my comment was more aimed at JS and PHP... but I still prefer rigid typing that won't even let you use a bool or char as an int, even if that's how it's stored (if it's what you wanted to do.. cast it..).
I kind of lump TDD in with traditional older-style thinking.
I admit I tend to have a kind of waterfall mentality. You spend months documenting _exactly_ what is needed, months designing the thing down to the tiny component parts, then proceed to basically paraphrase the design into code form. Slow, inflexible, inefficient... and everything is moving away from it.
TDD seems to be a relic of this approach. It would assume you have that first part, a very detailed list of everything you need, up front, before implementation. I've never understood how this is moving forward. To me we should be moving towards approaches that let us change requirements on the fly without it being a massive undertaking. Agile types may feel free to educate me as to why I'm an idiot here! To me TDD binds hands just as effectively as the miles of design and requirement docs did, and this seems like a bad thing.
As for the bulk of your comment, I think we need a middle ground. Less hectic and "seat of your pants" ish, but not process overkill. The old "good, cheap, fast - pick 2" argument... but we need a little bit more "good".
I know I’m out of the web dev loop, but as I recall, in most cases the web mantra seems to be to crank it out as quick as possible before it’s obsolete. The exposure I’ve had (which admittedly is a small sampling) leads me to believe that even basic core principles of traditional software development are thrown out the window in a mad dash to get something that “looks right”.
Certainly the tools that have become the most popular around web dev would spell this out. Javascript, PHP, python, etc. Weakly types languages with loose structure, built in shortcuts, and lots of automagic. The whole concept of prototype based coding is to me just another example of rapid development trumping solid coding.
And I’ve heard the “compensate with better QA” or the even more ludicrous “just hire people who never make mistakes” arguments. I’ll take my programming with strong typing and lots of built in idiot-proofing please, and I’m not afraid to admit that even with years of dev experience, I still make the occasional bone headed mistake and I figure the more chances it gets caught, the better.
I think it’s good that _someone_ is trying to mix solid software development with web whimsy, but I don’t see it catching on, even in places where it really should!
I’d like to note, that while this may start a flame war (or get harmlessly modded down to oblivion), this really wasn’t my intention.
I’d also like to note, that I dislike TDD in general (yeah, I know, another flame war)! In my experience, most bugs I find are from running through some kind of manual procedure and noticing something ”odd” that an automated system wouldn’t have picked up. I imagine in web design, where the end result is mainly visual, this would be even more common. Sure, the table has the right values but they are all cut off and too tiny to read.
I do like broad, interface level unit testing (if you can call it that) to test that inputs into the system as a whole result in appropriate output, as these kind of requirements rarely change but individually testing classes just adds extra work, extra bulk when making changes, and never seems to find anything! I have run into this so many times, where someone comes up with a really great way to refractor some code, only to find out that while the code change would be trivial, updating 50 unit tests wouldn’t so it doesn’t happen.
And I can come up with much better and more productive ways to document behaviour and coordinate between developers (written documents, java style interface classes/etc) than a bunch of cumbersome unit tests.
It always felt to me that jabber just never caught on... and at this point probably never will. I think part of the reason is said extendability and flexibility. Non-geeks want something that they just "download this" and start chatting. As soon as they need to start making choices, the game is over.
I always liked the idea, but if your circle of non-geek friends arn't using it, doesn't do you much good. As for my geek friends, we mainly use IRC.
Sure, but no one is doing (or seems willing to do) it on a large enough scale, which is really more what I meant vice a technological problem. I think wind is viable, lots of free space in windy areas... if you can find a good way to transport the power it seems an ideal solution.
Solar I don't think is there technologically... it just costs too much and doesn't have the efficiency (and from what I hear, manufacturing the panels produces all manner of nasty stuff). But wind I think we could be using in a much bigger way.
The best bet is actually to start saving and lower consumption over all.
That may be the best way, but I wouldn't bet on it ever happening. A solution that relies on people to conciously deprive themselves of something for the good of everyone is bound to fail in todays society.
Seeing a large nuclear disaster has made people wary of nuclear power.. now that's just shocking!
All seriousness though, between the American media fear mongering and the fact that there is actually something to be afraid of, this isn't too surprising.
I still personally think that nuclear power is the best bet. I imagine (and this is an uneducated opinion) all the junk coal and oil plants pump out under regular circumstances is probably going to kill more people than the japan nuclear crisis over the long run, and alternative energy just isn't close enough for people to wait.
Ultimately this seems like a very over-elaborate system anyway. Why do they need to have a bunch of prepared single line warnings anyway. In the time it takes to select one of probably several warnings from the system, a user could have typed the message in themselves.
The whole thing could probably be handled with an updated email distribution list and _maybe_ a shortcut on the desktop to quickly start a new message to said list.
It's a fair summary, but I probably wouldn't have started with "Remember BrainGate?", because I think a large chunk of the slashdot crowd (myself included) has been conditioned to let out a groan and stop reading the second we see the gate suffix applied to anything. Especially when a word like "remember" is shoved in there, because remember tends to reference an event or person.
"BrainGate, an implanted system lets people with.." might have been better for the slashdot crowd.
It's sad that I don't think anything I've said is... insane. This gate suffix garbage has really gotten that bad!
This is my very uneducated opinion, but I think the stuff that pours out of smoke stacks under regular conditions has probably resulted in far more grief than the worst nuclear disasters combined.
Nuclear accidents kind of seems like airplane crashes in that sense. Even though driving a car is actually a shockingly dangerous activity and you are statistically much safer in an airplane... people ignore the fact that car crashes kill many people daily but freak out when a plane crashes. The reason of course is that when a plane crashes, a huge number of people die en-masse, which is far more noticable than people sporadically dying throughout the day.
Oil and coal pumps out all sorts of nasty that probably results in all manner of death and health issues... but it does it over time. Nuclear is relatively safe, until something goes wrong and then puts a huge number of people in danger.
It’s actually funny, with all the wars and nuclear weapons and pandemic fears and asteroids and climate change, I actually think this is how the human race is going to destroy itself.
Not specifically this experiment, but something like it. It’s gonna be some scientist or team of scientists playing with something a little out of his/her/their understanding who will accidently split the Earth in half, or ignite the atmosphere, or boil the oceans, or unleash some virus/toxin or something!
But we can’t just stop scientific research either. Stuff like the LHC and possibly this experiment has to continue. It’s just an interesting thought as we start getting into stuff that actually could have global, irreversible impact.
I used to just drive around GTA: Vice City and listen to the various radio stations, that sunset effect that is so annoying when on a mission is actually quite spectacular when just cruising around.
The earlier versions of GTA (before GTA3) have a kind of nostalgic charm but the immersive quality of the later games is beautiful.
GTA San Andreas I didn’t really get into, but that was more story than game play. Just couldn’t relate to the gangster thing.
I actually find when building a spec for something complex (and that's really what this is, a spec, not a design) it is sometimes helpful to write out the obvious stuff. I'll do this in meetings as well sometimes... put the basic things we all know on the whiteboard. It seems to have a centering effect. People can go off tangants, and having a "this is the basics of what we're trying to do" document can serve to bring people down to reality and help determine if ideas fit the overall project.
But as you said, this could also just be a case of needing _something_ on paper to check a checkbox somewhere for the money folk.
Disclaimer: can’t read the article (filtered) but have a good guess at what it says
Personally, I put part of the blame on mobile “apps”. You can’t charge someone for access to a website unless you’ve got some really compelling content.. but you sure can sell them an app for their phone that provides the same kind of information for a few dollars.
And yes, there are lots of mobile apps that wouldn’t be practical in website form, but there are just as many that could easily be a website.
As for the large closed sites that’ll change. Everything in tech seems to go through periods of convergence when the current set of technology becomes more refined, and divergence when it’s time for change. I actually don’t long for the days of wading through geocities and lycos and angelfire pages looking for some tidbit of into when these days I plug it into wikipedia, or some other niche wiki.
As for facebook and myspace and twitter, I think they’ve largely replaced the personal website and personal blog site for so many people because they provide all the functionality most people who had a personal site wanted, with none of the flexibility that they didn’t. When people want to start branching out in some way that you can’t do with facebook and friends en-masse.. you’ll see divergence start happening again.
Also, if "Web 3.0" actually becomes a new buzzword at this point in time... someones losing a finger.
That seems to be a constant with stories we hear about people trying to cheat the system.
There was a great series on TV called "breaking vegas" (not the documentary on the MIT blackjack team, but a series based off it) and this was a constant element. You may have a fool proof system, but even atop a pile of gold, if you steal millions, someone is going to notice.
Kind of makes you wonder how many (if any) smart criminals there are out there, stealing enough to live happily, but not enough to get noticed. When we look at a lot of these systems people come up with, if they just took it easy they'd probably go un-noticed for years. I like to think there are a few out there with the cleverness and greed to come up with something, but the rationality to restrain themselves.
Good reason to always carry clotting powder/clotting bandages with you when using chainsaws/axes/powerful sharp spinning things of any kind. If you don't pass out you might actually survive. Never been in the situation so don't know how I'd react... as tough as I like to think I am I'd probably just scream a lot and bleed to death.
But yeah, that was a fairly extreme example.. I suspect it would be fairly difficult to actually amputate a limb with a modern chainsaw anyway. A deep cut, sure, but I imagine by the time the blade contacts the leg, it's already in the process of stopping.
Although the trend here seems to be encouraging people to call 911 for any immediate police or fire issue, not just emergencies, rather than calling the police or fire department directly. Makes sense I guess, as I imagine the "only call 911 in absolute emergency" probably leads to some not calling 911 when they really should, and it's probably cheaper to consolodate handling to one place, rather than have the police and fire departments have their own call handling.
That was my first reaction as well. They arn't clear on whether that error rare is the systems ability to recognize voice stress, or the corrolation of voice stress to emergency severity.
We all know people who fall apart when something goes wrong... and we (or at least I) know people who could calmly tell the operator that they have cut their leg off with a chainsaw and would greatly appreciate it if someone could come down and give them a hand.
And then there are children, who can react in an even wider variety of extremes.
Slashdot Mirror
The name for broad, interface level testing is an "end-to-end" test.
Thanks! Seriously, I have always wondered what this was actually called!
Python should not be lumped in with PHP.
Agreed, in retrospect it shouldn't really be on that list. My apologies to the python community :(
The value of TDD is that you are encouraged to have code that does what it's supposed to do, but nothing more than that. That's because you define the expected behavior (your test case) first, then ensure your code can do that.
I see this approach working, but don't really like it. If people went _directly_ to unit tests, maybe, but in all implementations I've seen, people have to do some design work first. In this instance, it's always seemed to me that the unit test is a layer between design and code. A layer that has to be updated if any refactoring happens during implementation. I'd personally rather go right to code, and validate with traditional testing. As said though, I do understand this opinion and think it's valid.
Because 128 tests is far more work than 16 tests, it typically doesn't happen at all, leading to bugs.
I guess it depends on how much variation is needed to test each path. In the case of systems with very few inputs/outputs... it can be trivial to build a test harness that feeds it a pre-set list of inputs to test the various paths/branches. In some cases, basic logic can even generate these lists for you. In a UI driven app, I'd prefer manual procedures do to the "hey, that looks odd" factor... but I admit these arn't as thorough. I'd also note that in large systems with reasonably seperate components.. these components can be tested in the manner I talked about. I'm just generally against going down to the individual class level.
Yeah, in retrospect python doesn't really belong on that list.
My apologies to the python community :(
I admit I know very little python, but as I understand it, while it does track the variable types for you... it doesn't do much to prevent you from using the wrong type in the wrong spot (enter automagic to try and make it work for you).
Obviously this is a step up from no typing at all, and the bulk of my comment was more aimed at JS and PHP... but I still prefer rigid typing that won't even let you use a bool or char as an int, even if that's how it's stored (if it's what you wanted to do.. cast it..).
I kind of lump TDD in with traditional older-style thinking.
I admit I tend to have a kind of waterfall mentality. You spend months documenting _exactly_ what is needed, months designing the thing down to the tiny component parts, then proceed to basically paraphrase the design into code form. Slow, inflexible, inefficient ... and everything is moving away from it.
TDD seems to be a relic of this approach. It would assume you have that first part, a very detailed list of everything you need, up front, before implementation. I've never understood how this is moving forward. To me we should be moving towards approaches that let us change requirements on the fly without it being a massive undertaking. Agile types may feel free to educate me as to why I'm an idiot here! To me TDD binds hands just as effectively as the miles of design and requirement docs did, and this seems like a bad thing.
As for the bulk of your comment, I think we need a middle ground. Less hectic and "seat of your pants" ish, but not process overkill. The old "good, cheap, fast - pick 2" argument... but we need a little bit more "good".
I know I’m out of the web dev loop, but as I recall, in most cases the web mantra seems to be to crank it out as quick as possible before it’s obsolete. The exposure I’ve had (which admittedly is a small sampling) leads me to believe that even basic core principles of traditional software development are thrown out the window in a mad dash to get something that “looks right”.
Certainly the tools that have become the most popular around web dev would spell this out. Javascript, PHP, python, etc. Weakly types languages with loose structure, built in shortcuts, and lots of automagic. The whole concept of prototype based coding is to me just another example of rapid development trumping solid coding.
And I’ve heard the “compensate with better QA” or the even more ludicrous “just hire people who never make mistakes” arguments. I’ll take my programming with strong typing and lots of built in idiot-proofing please, and I’m not afraid to admit that even with years of dev experience, I still make the occasional bone headed mistake and I figure the more chances it gets caught, the better.
I think it’s good that _someone_ is trying to mix solid software development with web whimsy, but I don’t see it catching on, even in places where it really should!
I’d like to note, that while this may start a flame war (or get harmlessly modded down to oblivion), this really wasn’t my intention.
I’d also like to note, that I dislike TDD in general (yeah, I know, another flame war)! In my experience, most bugs I find are from running through some kind of manual procedure and noticing something ”odd” that an automated system wouldn’t have picked up. I imagine in web design, where the end result is mainly visual, this would be even more common. Sure, the table has the right values but they are all cut off and too tiny to read.
I do like broad, interface level unit testing (if you can call it that) to test that inputs into the system as a whole result in appropriate output, as these kind of requirements rarely change but individually testing classes just adds extra work, extra bulk when making changes, and never seems to find anything! I have run into this so many times, where someone comes up with a really great way to refractor some code, only to find out that while the code change would be trivial, updating 50 unit tests wouldn’t so it doesn’t happen.
And I can come up with much better and more productive ways to document behaviour and coordinate between developers (written documents, java style interface classes/etc) than a bunch of cumbersome unit tests.
It always felt to me that jabber just never caught on... and at this point probably never will. I think part of the reason is said extendability and flexibility. Non-geeks want something that they just "download this" and start chatting. As soon as they need to start making choices, the game is over.
I always liked the idea, but if your circle of non-geek friends arn't using it, doesn't do you much good. As for my geek friends, we mainly use IRC.
Hmm, that looks awesomely promising
Sure, but no one is doing (or seems willing to do) it on a large enough scale, which is really more what I meant vice a technological problem. I think wind is viable, lots of free space in windy areas... if you can find a good way to transport the power it seems an ideal solution.
Solar I don't think is there technologically... it just costs too much and doesn't have the efficiency (and from what I hear, manufacturing the panels produces all manner of nasty stuff). But wind I think we could be using in a much bigger way.
And for the record.. I'm Canadian!
The best bet is actually to start saving and lower consumption over all.
That may be the best way, but I wouldn't bet on it ever happening. A solution that relies on people to conciously deprive themselves of something for the good of everyone is bound to fail in todays society.
Seeing a large nuclear disaster has made people wary of nuclear power.. now that's just shocking!
All seriousness though, between the American media fear mongering and the fact that there is actually something to be afraid of, this isn't too surprising.
I still personally think that nuclear power is the best bet. I imagine (and this is an uneducated opinion) all the junk coal and oil plants pump out under regular circumstances is probably going to kill more people than the japan nuclear crisis over the long run, and alternative energy just isn't close enough for people to wait.
Ultimately this seems like a very over-elaborate system anyway. Why do they need to have a bunch of prepared single line warnings anyway. In the time it takes to select one of probably several warnings from the system, a user could have typed the message in themselves.
The whole thing could probably be handled with an updated email distribution list and _maybe_ a shortcut on the desktop to quickly start a new message to said list.
Now I have to watch some George Carlin when I get home :(
It's a fair summary, but I probably wouldn't have started with "Remember BrainGate?", because I think a large chunk of the slashdot crowd (myself included) has been conditioned to let out a groan and stop reading the second we see the gate suffix applied to anything. Especially when a word like "remember" is shoved in there, because remember tends to reference an event or person.
"BrainGate, an implanted system lets people with.." might have been better for the slashdot crowd.
It's sad that I don't think anything I've said is... insane. This gate suffix garbage has really gotten that bad!
yup, that was my first knee-jerk reaction as well.
"Oh great, another over-hyped controversy for which some empty suit has appended a "gate" suffix too".
Pretty bad that it's gotten to that point.
Indeed.
This is my very uneducated opinion, but I think the stuff that pours out of smoke stacks under regular conditions has probably resulted in far more grief than the worst nuclear disasters combined.
Nuclear accidents kind of seems like airplane crashes in that sense. Even though driving a car is actually a shockingly dangerous activity and you are statistically much safer in an airplane... people ignore the fact that car crashes kill many people daily but freak out when a plane crashes. The reason of course is that when a plane crashes, a huge number of people die en-masse, which is far more noticable than people sporadically dying throughout the day.
Oil and coal pumps out all sorts of nasty that probably results in all manner of death and health issues... but it does it over time. Nuclear is relatively safe, until something goes wrong and then puts a huge number of people in danger.
Also.. is this a reference to POD by any chance? :D
It’s actually funny, with all the wars and nuclear weapons and pandemic fears and asteroids and climate change, I actually think this is how the human race is going to destroy itself.
Not specifically this experiment, but something like it. It’s gonna be some scientist or team of scientists playing with something a little out of his/her/their understanding who will accidently split the Earth in half, or ignite the atmosphere, or boil the oceans, or unleash some virus/toxin or something!
But we can’t just stop scientific research either. Stuff like the LHC and possibly this experiment has to continue. It’s just an interesting thought as we start getting into stuff that actually could have global, irreversible impact.
Can totally relate to this.
I used to just drive around GTA: Vice City and listen to the various radio stations, that sunset effect that is so annoying when on a mission is actually quite spectacular when just cruising around.
The earlier versions of GTA (before GTA3) have a kind of nostalgic charm but the immersive quality of the later games is beautiful.
GTA San Andreas I didn’t really get into, but that was more story than game play. Just couldn’t relate to the gangster thing.
Guess it depends on approach.
I actually find when building a spec for something complex (and that's really what this is, a spec, not a design) it is sometimes helpful to write out the obvious stuff. I'll do this in meetings as well sometimes... put the basic things we all know on the whiteboard. It seems to have a centering effect. People can go off tangants, and having a "this is the basics of what we're trying to do" document can serve to bring people down to reality and help determine if ideas fit the overall project.
But as you said, this could also just be a case of needing _something_ on paper to check a checkbox somewhere for the money folk.
Disclaimer: can’t read the article (filtered) but have a good guess at what it says
Personally, I put part of the blame on mobile “apps”. You can’t charge someone for access to a website unless you’ve got some really compelling content.. but you sure can sell them an app for their phone that provides the same kind of information for a few dollars.
And yes, there are lots of mobile apps that wouldn’t be practical in website form, but there are just as many that could easily be a website.
As for the large closed sites that’ll change. Everything in tech seems to go through periods of convergence when the current set of technology becomes more refined, and divergence when it’s time for change. I actually don’t long for the days of wading through geocities and lycos and angelfire pages looking for some tidbit of into when these days I plug it into wikipedia, or some other niche wiki.
As for facebook and myspace and twitter, I think they’ve largely replaced the personal website and personal blog site for so many people because they provide all the functionality most people who had a personal site wanted, with none of the flexibility that they didn’t. When people want to start branching out in some way that you can’t do with facebook and friends en-masse.. you’ll see divergence start happening again.
Also, if "Web 3.0" actually becomes a new buzzword at this point in time... someones losing a finger.
That seems to be a constant with stories we hear about people trying to cheat the system.
There was a great series on TV called "breaking vegas" (not the documentary on the MIT blackjack team, but a series based off it) and this was a constant element. You may have a fool proof system, but even atop a pile of gold, if you steal millions, someone is going to notice.
Kind of makes you wonder how many (if any) smart criminals there are out there, stealing enough to live happily, but not enough to get noticed. When we look at a lot of these systems people come up with, if they just took it easy they'd probably go un-noticed for years. I like to think there are a few out there with the cleverness and greed to come up with something, but the rationality to restrain themselves.
Good reason to always carry clotting powder/clotting bandages with you when using chainsaws/axes/powerful sharp spinning things of any kind. If you don't pass out you might actually survive. Never been in the situation so don't know how I'd react... as tough as I like to think I am I'd probably just scream a lot and bleed to death.
But yeah, that was a fairly extreme example.. I suspect it would be fairly difficult to actually amputate a limb with a modern chainsaw anyway. A deep cut, sure, but I imagine by the time the blade contacts the leg, it's already in the process of stopping.
Indeed.
Although the trend here seems to be encouraging people to call 911 for any immediate police or fire issue, not just emergencies, rather than calling the police or fire department directly. Makes sense I guess, as I imagine the "only call 911 in absolute emergency" probably leads to some not calling 911 when they really should, and it's probably cheaper to consolodate handling to one place, rather than have the police and fire departments have their own call handling.
We've all heard it, but it's probably on my top 5 list of simpsons quotes:
Automated answering system: you have selected "regicide." If you know the name of the king or queen being murdered, press one.
That was my first reaction as well. They arn't clear on whether that error rare is the systems ability to recognize voice stress, or the corrolation of voice stress to emergency severity.
We all know people who fall apart when something goes wrong... and we (or at least I) know people who could calmly tell the operator that they have cut their leg off with a chainsaw and would greatly appreciate it if someone could come down and give them a hand.
And then there are children, who can react in an even wider variety of extremes.