At least you can play them under Linux now. Legally. That's a step up. Is there no web interface for apple music store? Do you have to purchase through the itunes app?
I bought Game X. I installed Game X. I consented to Game X I never knew that I was also installing SecureROM. It never tells you on the package nor in the EULA nor in the installer. That's unauthorized computer usage. That's completely criminal.
Consenting to something does not mean I'm consenting to everything.
I'm not sure what your obsession with SecureROM is. There are many options other than SecureROM and Steam. Sure Steam doesn't look bad if you compare it to something equally bad. Let's look at the many options other than SecureROM
Pretty much all the DRM out there is variations on "We can revoke your subscription at any time and you can't do anything about it." It may, or may not, actually be spelled out as such... But that's the basic idea. You're allowed to install the software where they tell you that you can, the number of times that they tell you you can...
Yeah that's wrong. Some DRM works this way. Impulse does not. Itunes does not. CSS does not. PS3 does not. Xbox360 does not. Disc in drive does not. Watermarking does not. Dongle does not. The whole idea that you have to ask permission to use something you paid for is obscene.
From the Steam contract part 13.C.2 "In the case of a one-time purchase of a product license (e.g., purchase of a single game) from Valve, Valve may choose to terminate or cancel your Subscription in its entirety"
Would you buy pants that you had to ask permission to wear? Would you buy a car if you had to call GM to start it? Would you buy a house that could be repossessed at any time without warning even if paid in full? If it's ok to do with your software then it's ok to do with any of these items.
I'm not claiming that "We can revoke your subscription at any time and you can't do anything about it" is progress. It isn't. But it is the way DRM works these days.
Again you're just wrong. I've pointed out many exceptions. Every single exception I listed leaves control in the purchasers hand. The purchaser and the purchaser alone determines if they are able to use the product which they acquired legally.
How is going from complete control to no control of objects you legally purchased progress?
Steam give the players an easy way to re-install their software, automatic updates, etc.
Installing from disc or local file is equally easy and in all cases quicker. Impulse has automatic updates with no control loss DRM. Many games have an auto update feature built in. Shit Diablo 2 had it eight and a half years go. Ultima Online had it 10 years ago. Auto updates is not progress it's old tech.
iTunes may not be able to revoke my ability to play the file that I purchased... But it is, much like with Steam, DRM that generally works for both sides of the equation.
This is just delusional. You're saying something that you have complete control over is the same as something you have no control over.
I never claimed you claimed Steam was the best thing ever.
I ask again. How is "We can revoke your subscription at any time and you can't do anything about it." good for the customer or a step in the right direction?
Steam is literally the worst possible DRM. You must ask permission to use your game subscription. You can loose access at any time. You have no legal recourse since you signed a contract agreeing to these terms. Steam is completely one sided. Why do you think it works for both sides?
itunes is nothing like Steam. Apple cannot revoke your ability to play the file you purchased.
And no, a vague promise of "If we ever stop the authentication servers, we'll put out a patch so that it doesn't need it" doesn't count. There's a well-known term for software that's promised but not yet written: Vaporware.
I've directly asked Steam supporters who bring this up to document this claim. Every single person I've done this too has dropped out of the thread never to be heard from again.
Such a clause does not exist in the subscriber agreement.
Steam is good for players because all you need is your username and password to re-install anything you've ever purchased on Steam. Lose the CD? No problem! Reformat your entire computer? No problem! Just log in to Steam, kick off the download, and wait. You also get all your game updates distributed automatically, built-in profile/achievement/friends/community support, and a very simple and easy-to-use on-line store.
You failed to mention the ability for Steam to revoke access to your subscriptions at any time. For any or no reason.
How is asking permission to use something you purchased good for customers? How is this fair DRM?
Steam is the worst possible DRM. Read the EULA agreement. It clearly states we can your access to the product you subscribed to, their words not mine, at any time and you can't do shit about it. How is that acceptable DRM?
functional identical to generating isk? we are talking about an exploit here, permission to print money would be permission to generate it out of thin air
They are not generating isk but they are generating wealth out of thin air. The form is different the effect is the same. They don't need to generate money. This is true for any MMO.
Err what part of taking an independent inventory escapes you?
Again ignorance of a game you don't play. An independent inventory is a hard problem. I'll try and give the short version. Minable moons only exist in free fire zones. People can control these areas. They put up borders. They enforce these borders violently. Secrecy of moons is a good thing. If people know what you have they may come and take it. There is no incentive to share only to hide. Additionally if there is already a POS at a moon scanning you can potentially be shot down before scanning it since they tend to have guns.
hulks
0 hulks being destroyed is also meaningless. No destroyed hulks does not mean no sales. There is no direct correlation between hulks popped and hulks sold. Some people are buying their first. Some are retiring. Some have multiple. In general the number of hulks is going to constantly grow. Where they are being sold and in what volume is much more useful than number of destroyed. If you're waiting for numbers and reacting you've already lost to the people who are constant.
there has to be a market in eve to thrive no corp can be (or should be) completely self contained.
That's not true at all. If you have a completely internal economy you can never help your enemy. The market is PvP. Since you don't know who you're buying from any purchase could be funding the war machine against you.
Knowing that a ship that uses high levels of iso who's rate of destruction has double in the past 3 months should give you an idea that iso use maybe on the rise. just a thought.
This is completely fictional. The example you give does not exist.
maybe i'm being a bit strict about this whole license to print money thing, isk in eve is only generated when you run a mission for a agent or you murder a pirate for the bounty. if no one did either of those things (I maybe missing something else, oohh trade runs!) no isk is added into the system and the total amount of isk in eve (should) never changes.
Insurance also generates isk. You're correct but the total number of isk on the server is meaningful only to CCP. The fact that it didn't generate isk is meaningless to a player. It allowed them to move isk from a different player to themselves which is functionally identical to generating isk.
Also has none of the players in arguing that there are not enough moons ever crunched the numbers themselves? I know they guys over at ccp release a db dump of all the planets moon and stuff, hasn't anyone taken an independent inventory and went "Ein menuten bitter!"? I'm wondering on that.
Again ignorance. They've released the schema and the records for all items. What moon minerals are at what moons is not released. The number of moons occupied is not released. This is no way for the players to do what you claim.
Personally If i'm selling hulks, or any ship for that matter, the rate at which they are being blown up is a good thing to know, It would tell me if i need to ramp up production or if i need to scale back, i don't recall if he does provide locational data but if so that would be valuable too.
No it's not. You are assuming a blown up hulk is a potential sale. This is not a correct conclusion. The number of ships destroyed is greater than the number of ships sold. Not all ships created are sold on the market. The market is PvP. If your corp can keep everything internal it's impossible to help your enemy.
also if i'm the mineral suppliers to said hulk producers i'd like to know if theres going to be a spike in demand. I guess what info is useful depends on if you're going to do anything based on it or not. If all i do is run missions i can see how knowing the number of any ships being destroyed wouldn't mean anything to me.
Not so much. Minerals can be used in anything. As a mineral supplier what is getting blown up is meaningless.
*sigh* T2 and static rare moons are in fact licenses to print money. It's one of the single biggest complaints in the game, using those exact words. But you already knew that cause you played before these things ever existed.
I don't understand your status quo statement. Status quo means the usual not correct. If it's only possible to produce X but you're seeing more than X then it's a problem. The fact that's a been a problem for 2.5 years before you see it doesn't make it not a problem.
The players have been clamoring for years about the limited input of T2 raw materials. I was hoping the "economist" would maybe look at that market and tell us how efficient it was going, did we need more moons. At least to shut up the players complaining. For Example: tell them that the current rare moons aren't even being used at full cap so we see no need to add more. Instead we get ships produced/blown up trivia. Oh and mineral indexes, which we already had three of before he was hired.
Again I disagree completely with your analogy. The players are the residents and have all the tools to observe, report, and speculate. They do this with meaningful data not trivia too. Who cares how many Hulks were blown up? This is a meaningless fact to players. They can't use it for market purposes. It offers no advantage hence it's mere trivia. How many were sold now that's meaningful and freely available to players before the Doc showed up.
As an economist I would expect him to look at meaningful things that the players don't have access too. Like my example above of how close to "full" the moon minerals are. How much of an advantage T2 BPOs give over invention. Long term planning things. The only useful thing I've seen him do is advise the removal of NPC sold shuttles. Something the players had been saying should be done for quite a while before him.
There is no copper in EvE. Other real materials but not copper. Your post showed a lack of fundamental knowledge of EvE so I was trying to simplify by using copper instead of Dysprosium and pennies instead of ferrofluid.
There are exactly x Dysprosium moons. This does not change unless CCP adds new solar systems. Each moon can only produce 100 Dys per hour. Thus there can only be 2400x Dysprosium produced per day. Period.
You responded to me. You said there was no limited supply to gauge against. You're flat wrong. This exploit involved moon minerals which as I show above has exactly a limited supply.
No that's that a statistician does. No economy training is required to tell me that x battleships were built and y were destroyed. Go read the economic reports put out. They're mere trivia. Anyone with access to the database could have generated them.
Your example is pure fail. If you called an exterminator and they looked at the house and missed the termites then you might have something valid.
Next misinformation: 3 trillion isk. That's one person's account. CCP has admitted that many alliances (group of corp (guilds)) was exploiting this. There is no way the number is 3 trillion.
That's not true. There are exactly x moons that have "copper". These moons are the only source of "copper." There is a fixed amount of "copper" that may be produced per time period. Money is meaningless in this situation.
There is an exact number of moons that produce "copper". This number does not change. "Pennies" are produced with "copper". Since the amount of copper is fixed then the maximum possible number of pennies produced is fixed.
More pennies were produced than was mathematically possible. For years. This is exactly the sort of thing a professional economist on staff to analyze the economy should have found.
One who failed to notice that starbase production output of widgets was significantly more than is mathematically possible with the number of moons that possessed the raw material needed for widgets.
He compiles trivia after the fact. He's a statistician and nothing more.
Your illegitimate isk sales numbers are nonsensical. The legal means of buying isk is cheaper. Why would you pay $35 for 450m and risk getting banned when you can pay $35 for 600m and _zero_ risk of a ban?
Your whole post makes no sense. You say having them be readily available would be bad but then you go and show that you a recovering addict have no problem with it being readily available. Try not to shoot yourself down next time.
Oh and he fact that you don't know where to find meth is meaningless. What point are you trying to make?
Slashdot Mirror
At least you can play them under Linux now. Legally. That's a step up. Is there no web interface for apple music store? Do you have to purchase through the itunes app?
So by loading a web page that has a silent trojan installer you consent to have your machine rooted and joined to a bot net?
You opened the browser. You went to the web page.
FAIL.
I bought Game X. I installed Game X. I consented to Game X I never knew that I was also installing SecureROM. It never tells you on the package nor in the EULA nor in the installer. That's unauthorized computer usage. That's completely criminal.
Consenting to something does not mean I'm consenting to everything.
Hey my hat's off to them. Anyone who can not only sell an underpowered laptop for $2800 but also make the buyer feel good about it has my respect.
The no DRM move is brilliant and I'm ecstatic they pulled it off. Finally itunes is a option when I purchase music.
I do find it amusing though that they're a better walkman/music company than they are a computer company.
True on the farr use but there is a ton of case history involving computer intrusion. That's not what this is about.
Installing software(securerom) on my computer without my permission is clearly a criminal act.
I have seen SD card 'wallets' and such, but have never seen anyone actually use one.
Use the fucking wallet.
Seriously? You can't be the first? Why does the fact that you've never seen anyone else use a SD wallet mean you can't use it? Be a trend setter.
Or how about you write your fucking name on the fucking card.
If they are talking to someone about the location of every exit or various locations of structural weak points - yes they should.
So you're also advocating complete surveillance of the content of all cell phone traffic to find terrorists?
Sorry I'm done. I don't deal with the crazies.
Yeah just like phishing scams heralded an end to email.
They also used cell phones. By your logic the police should stop and log the names of everyone they see in public using a cell phone.
There is only one way to avoid random violence and that is to avoid people.
I call straw man.
Yeah that's CD-R Audio. No one buys those. they're more expensive than regular blanks and offer no advantage.
I'm not sure what your obsession with SecureROM is. There are many options other than SecureROM and Steam. Sure Steam doesn't look bad if you compare it to something equally bad. Let's look at the many options other than SecureROM
Pretty much all the DRM out there is variations on "We can revoke your subscription at any time and you can't do anything about it." It may, or may not, actually be spelled out as such... But that's the basic idea. You're allowed to install the software where they tell you that you can, the number of times that they tell you you can...
Yeah that's wrong. Some DRM works this way. Impulse does not. Itunes does not. CSS does not. PS3 does not. Xbox360 does not. Disc in drive does not. Watermarking does not. Dongle does not. The whole idea that you have to ask permission to use something you paid for is obscene.
From the Steam contract part 13.C.2 "In the case of a one-time purchase of a product license (e.g., purchase of a single game) from Valve, Valve may choose to terminate or cancel your Subscription in its entirety"
Would you buy pants that you had to ask permission to wear? Would you buy a car if you had to call GM to start it? Would you buy a house that could be repossessed at any time without warning even if paid in full? If it's ok to do with your software then it's ok to do with any of these items.
I'm not claiming that "We can revoke your subscription at any time and you can't do anything about it" is progress. It isn't. But it is the way DRM works these days.
Again you're just wrong. I've pointed out many exceptions. Every single exception I listed leaves control in the purchasers hand. The purchaser and the purchaser alone determines if they are able to use the product which they acquired legally.
How is going from complete control to no control of objects you legally purchased progress?
Steam give the players an easy way to re-install their software, automatic updates, etc.
Installing from disc or local file is equally easy and in all cases quicker. Impulse has automatic updates with no control loss DRM. Many games have an auto update feature built in. Shit Diablo 2 had it eight and a half years go. Ultima Online had it 10 years ago. Auto updates is not progress it's old tech.
iTunes may not be able to revoke my ability to play the file that I purchased... But it is, much like with Steam, DRM that generally works for both sides of the equation.
This is just delusional. You're saying something that you have complete control over is the same as something you have no control over.
I never claimed you claimed Steam was the best thing ever.
I ask again. How is "We can revoke your subscription at any time and you can't do anything about it." good for the customer or a step in the right direction?
Steam is literally the worst possible DRM. You must ask permission to use your game subscription. You can loose access at any time. You have no legal recourse since you signed a contract agreeing to these terms. Steam is completely one sided. Why do you think it works for both sides?
itunes is nothing like Steam. Apple cannot revoke your ability to play the file you purchased.
And no, a vague promise of "If we ever stop the authentication servers, we'll put out a patch so that it doesn't need it" doesn't count. There's a well-known term for software that's promised but not yet written: Vaporware.
I've directly asked Steam supporters who bring this up to document this claim. Every single person I've done this too has dropped out of the thread never to be heard from again.
Such a clause does not exist in the subscriber agreement.
Steam is good for players because all you need is your username and password to re-install anything you've ever purchased on Steam. Lose the CD? No problem! Reformat your entire computer? No problem! Just log in to Steam, kick off the download, and wait. You also get all your game updates distributed automatically, built-in profile/achievement/friends/community support, and a very simple and easy-to-use on-line store.
You failed to mention the ability for Steam to revoke access to your subscriptions at any time. For any or no reason.
How is asking permission to use something you purchased good for customers? How is this fair DRM?
Steam is the worst possible DRM. Read the EULA agreement. It clearly states we can your access to the product you subscribed to, their words not mine, at any time and you can't do shit about it. How is that acceptable DRM?
functional identical to generating isk? we are talking about an exploit here, permission to print money would be permission to generate it out of thin air
They are not generating isk but they are generating wealth out of thin air. The form is different the effect is the same. They don't need to generate money. This is true for any MMO.
Err what part of taking an independent inventory escapes you?
Again ignorance of a game you don't play. An independent inventory is a hard problem. I'll try and give the short version. Minable moons only exist in free fire zones. People can control these areas. They put up borders. They enforce these borders violently. Secrecy of moons is a good thing. If people know what you have they may come and take it. There is no incentive to share only to hide. Additionally if there is already a POS at a moon scanning you can potentially be shot down before scanning it since they tend to have guns.
hulks
0 hulks being destroyed is also meaningless. No destroyed hulks does not mean no sales. There is no direct correlation between hulks popped and hulks sold. Some people are buying their first. Some are retiring. Some have multiple. In general the number of hulks is going to constantly grow. Where they are being sold and in what volume is much more useful than number of destroyed. If you're waiting for numbers and reacting you've already lost to the people who are constant.
there has to be a market in eve to thrive no corp can be (or should be) completely self contained.
That's not true at all. If you have a completely internal economy you can never help your enemy. The market is PvP. Since you don't know who you're buying from any purchase could be funding the war machine against you.
Knowing that a ship that uses high levels of iso who's rate of destruction has double in the past 3 months should give you an idea that iso use maybe on the rise. just a thought.
This is completely fictional. The example you give does not exist.
maybe i'm being a bit strict about this whole license to print money thing, isk in eve is only generated when you run a mission for a agent or you murder a pirate for the bounty. if no one did either of those things (I maybe missing something else, oohh trade runs!) no isk is added into the system and the total amount of isk in eve (should) never changes.
Insurance also generates isk. You're correct but the total number of isk on the server is meaningful only to CCP. The fact that it didn't generate isk is meaningless to a player. It allowed them to move isk from a different player to themselves which is functionally identical to generating isk.
Also has none of the players in arguing that there are not enough moons ever crunched the numbers themselves? I know they guys over at ccp release a db dump of all the planets moon and stuff, hasn't anyone taken an independent inventory and went "Ein menuten bitter!"? I'm wondering on that.
Again ignorance. They've released the schema and the records for all items. What moon minerals are at what moons is not released. The number of moons occupied is not released. This is no way for the players to do what you claim.
Personally If i'm selling hulks, or any ship for that matter, the rate at which they are being blown up is a good thing to know, It would tell me if i need to ramp up production or if i need to scale back, i don't recall if he does provide locational data but if so that would be valuable too.
No it's not. You are assuming a blown up hulk is a potential sale. This is not a correct conclusion. The number of ships destroyed is greater than the number of ships sold. Not all ships created are sold on the market. The market is PvP. If your corp can keep everything internal it's impossible to help your enemy.
also if i'm the mineral suppliers to said hulk producers i'd like to know if theres going to be a spike in demand. I guess what info is useful depends on if you're going to do anything based on it or not. If all i do is run missions i can see how knowing the number of any ships being destroyed wouldn't mean anything to me.
Not so much. Minerals can be used in anything. As a mineral supplier what is getting blown up is meaningless.
*sigh* T2 and static rare moons are in fact licenses to print money. It's one of the single biggest complaints in the game, using those exact words. But you already knew that cause you played before these things ever existed.
I don't understand your status quo statement. Status quo means the usual not correct. If it's only possible to produce X but you're seeing more than X then it's a problem. The fact that's a been a problem for 2.5 years before you see it doesn't make it not a problem.
The players have been clamoring for years about the limited input of T2 raw materials. I was hoping the "economist" would maybe look at that market and tell us how efficient it was going, did we need more moons. At least to shut up the players complaining. For Example: tell them that the current rare moons aren't even being used at full cap so we see no need to add more. Instead we get ships produced/blown up trivia. Oh and mineral indexes, which we already had three of before he was hired.
Again I disagree completely with your analogy. The players are the residents and have all the tools to observe, report, and speculate. They do this with meaningful data not trivia too. Who cares how many Hulks were blown up? This is a meaningless fact to players. They can't use it for market purposes. It offers no advantage hence it's mere trivia. How many were sold now that's meaningful and freely available to players before the Doc showed up.
As an economist I would expect him to look at meaningful things that the players don't have access too. Like my example above of how close to "full" the moon minerals are. How much of an advantage T2 BPOs give over invention. Long term planning things. The only useful thing I've seen him do is advise the removal of NPC sold shuttles. Something the players had been saying should be done for quite a while before him.
There is no copper in EvE. Other real materials but not copper. Your post showed a lack of fundamental knowledge of EvE so I was trying to simplify by using copper instead of Dysprosium and pennies instead of ferrofluid.
There are exactly x Dysprosium moons. This does not change unless CCP adds new solar systems. Each moon can only produce 100 Dys per hour. Thus there can only be 2400x Dysprosium produced per day. Period.
You responded to me. You said there was no limited supply to gauge against. You're flat wrong. This exploit involved moon minerals which as I show above has exactly a limited supply.
No that's that a statistician does. No economy training is required to tell me that x battleships were built and y were destroyed. Go read the economic reports put out. They're mere trivia. Anyone with access to the database could have generated them.
Your example is pure fail. If you called an exterminator and they looked at the house and missed the termites then you might have something valid.
Next misinformation: 3 trillion isk. That's one person's account. CCP has admitted that many alliances (group of corp (guilds)) was exploiting this. There is no way the number is 3 trillion.
That's not true. There are exactly x moons that have "copper". These moons are the only source of "copper." There is a fixed amount of "copper" that may be produced per time period. Money is meaningless in this situation.
There is an exact number of moons that produce "copper". This number does not change. "Pennies" are produced with "copper". Since the amount of copper is fixed then the maximum possible number of pennies produced is fixed.
More pennies were produced than was mathematically possible. For years. This is exactly the sort of thing a professional economist on staff to analyze the economy should have found.
One who failed to notice that starbase production output of widgets was significantly more than is mathematically possible with the number of moons that possessed the raw material needed for widgets.
He compiles trivia after the fact. He's a statistician and nothing more.
Your illegitimate isk sales numbers are nonsensical. The legal means of buying isk is cheaper. Why would you pay $35 for 450m and risk getting banned when you can pay $35 for 600m and _zero_ risk of a ban?
FAIL.
Your whole post makes no sense. You say having them be readily available would be bad but then you go and show that you a recovering addict have no problem with it being readily available. Try not to shoot yourself down next time.
Oh and he fact that you don't know where to find meth is meaningless. What point are you trying to make?