"Last time I got involved in the GPL 3 debate, I got harassed quite a bit"
I hope you don't think my comments are harassment but your comments are a distortion and an exact opposite of the case regarding the GPL, the so called restrictions and limits are designed to prevent others from imposing restrictions on what you can do with the software. See the other thread regarding TestDriven for a case in point.
"GPL 3 does limit what you do with the software.. by placing limits on the hardware you are allowed to use"
Yet again a gross distortion. Others in the preceding thread have pointed out that the hardware restrictions apply to prevent the Tivoization of GPL code. As the man said, why defend Tivoization?
"the developers failed to actually disable the extension functionality. There is no "technical limitation" to work around here", mpoulton
"Microsoft intentionally wrote the extension functionality into the software, and failed to disable it", mpoulton
'Define "disable".."
Ok I'll try and answer you both. I am not familiar enough with the innards of Visual DOT what ever it is, to comment on how his plug-in works and I assume that as you say, MS only hid the functionality and TestDriven figured out a way round this.
What's clear is that MS gave away the free version hoping that people who wanted the extra functionality would PAY for the full version. Ok, he has taken Express added value and is making money out of it. That is clearly against the spirit of the license. Whether MS lawyers weren't clear on the point is another matter.
What would TestDriven think if they were giving away a free limited version of an application hoping to make money out if the full one and I started selling an add-on that promoted it to the full version. I'm no fan of MS, but in this case TestDriven is being disingenuous when they say they can't understand why MS is miffed.
"they would never explain specifically which clause in the license was being violate"
It's a classic example of the differences between the Open Source and the closed sourced licensing model. I think it's perfectly clear, they provide a limited version of the product for free, the license forbids extending the functionality of Express. TestDriven extends the functionality, therefore it violates the license:
"open source represents the anarchist form of socialist revolution.. go ahead and limit your choices and allow RMS to protect you by limiting those choices"
The GPL actually acts to prevent others from limiting my choice in what I do with the software. The only proviso being I must also pass on such freedoms to others.
Your comments regarding anarchist reminds me of the writing of Dr. Nikolai Bezroukov. You aren't him by any chance..:)
key words:
cult, social revolution, mutation, Socialist, anarchist, collectivized..
"In which case, exactly what patent protection does this contract provide?"
Both agree not to sue each others customers in exchange for which Novell lends credence to Microsoft claims that Linux violates its patents. The protection only extends to end-users that Novell gets direct revenue from. So a company reselling Novell solutions would not be covered nor would its customers.
The covenant only applies to developers who do not receive revenue from SuSE and, at the suggestion of Microsoft, can be extended to developers of 'original work' for openSuSE, provided the original work is exclusively folded back into Novell SuSE, they receive no revenue from it and do not work on it in their employers time. They must also concede that MS patent claims apply to their own code. The actual wording is curious 'original work', which could mean the 'protection' also extends to properties and methods.
"Covenanting Party.. hereby covenants not to sue.. Customers for infringement under.. Patents.... for which the other Party has received Revenue"
"If the final version of GPLv3 contains terms or conditions that interfere with our agreement with Microsoft or our ability to distribute GPLv3 code, Microsoft may cease to distribute Suse Linux coupons in order to avoid the extension of its patent covenants to a broader range of GPLv3 software recipients," Novell stated in the document"
Well DOH, the 'covenant' only applies to a very restricted set of NOVL customers and specifically excludes downstream providers or developers of 'Original Work'. The pledge also lays claim to 'Original Work' and excludes openSuSE developers from working on their own code in company time. Any such work must also be rolled back into Novell SuSE. Not much of a covenant then.
Wow there, I just noticed something, it don't say original code, but original work, thereby extending the coverage to properties and methods? If this was cricket that would be know as throwing a googly.. nice.
'1.10 "Customers" means an enterprise or individual that utilizes a specific copy of a Covered Product for its intended purpose as authorized by a Party in consideration for Revenue'
What is the definition of 'intended purpose' and 'utilizes' in the current context. Who defines 'intended purpose' and 'utilizes'. If these terms are not defined (I can't find them) or can be arbitarly changed by either party at a future date then of what use is it to me the 'customer' as a legal document. I'm not a lawyer, but this says to me the 'pledge' can be revoked at any time. By either party I assume. I do assume the NOVL lawyers got one too. I can't see it! I do assume the NOVL lawyers actually read it before signing!
"In addition, Microsoft reserves the right to prospectively update and revise the terms of this pledge"
A close reading of the 'covenant' and associated documents reveals its true purpose, to drive a wedge between the Commercial Sector and Open Source developers.
MICROSOFT - NOVELL PATENT COOPERATION AGREEMENT
--
translation: I pledge not to sue you for indeterminate IP violations for a period that can be arbitrary revised, extended, canceled by me at any time. You agree that I own your own original work - not just code;).
Why is is that when I click the on the main slashdot page, it takes ages and hangs on sites like e.nvero.net, images.slashdot.org, zdmp.net, smartgetting etc. I know it doesn't matter on your fast connection, but it does mean I [waiting for images] don't [waiting for images] have [waiting for pages2.googlesyndication.com] to [waiting for images] wait [waiting for doubleclick] so [waiting for images] long [waiting for adserver] for [waiting for images again] a [waiting for google analytics] complete [ f*****g finally] page to appear..
It's not just slashdot but most sites, clicking the back button doesn't make a difference as it still reloads from the web site. I thought the cache stored pages for resuse.
"The Windows XP Task manager, with tasks ordered by memory usage, showed that FF was using 270MB of RAM"
See my other posts, lots of Windows and tabs opened and closed, went up over 75 MB and then back to 58 MB and hung there. Maybe mine is a magic computer.
Wouldn't that suck.. For fuck's sake, just stop using Windows
Well yea, but the average Windows wouldn't notice. And the average non technical user flies in to a technological panic when confronted with anything new. For instance a writer who is still on Wordperfect on Windows 98. She copies and pastes into her email prog to send, otherwise her clients can't read the doc..:)
Did I mention the one who has msWord set at 75% zoom and the fonts at 20, as she never learned to adjust the font size. At print out she selects 'reduce by 60%'..
"What I was actually referring to is simple searches on interactions or vital information without advertisements"
Yea, a lot of hits are to fake pages with nothing but adverts and links to other search results. But that to do with website promotion where they put a lot a fake stuff in the meta tags.
"When more than 50% of the CPU cycles in my PC go to security.. during the display of a simple HTML page in a browser i would say that our current approach is broken. Totally.
Install DRDOS on Novell Netware circa 1993 and run Netscape off of diskless clients.
Yep, that pretty much sums up the possible outcomes
Would this distributed DOS attack be possible without a vast army of compromised desktops being used as part of a botnet. Is it tecnnically possible to design against such attacks, or at least make it more difficult to compromise the desktops and route the rogue traffic. After all the Internet is supposed to be designed to be resistant to a nuclear attack. (I know Vint Cerf remembers it different)
"Without planning, forethought, notice and buy-in"
Like how, he just dropped msOffice. This isn't rocket science, it's the adoption of a software package in schools. They already use Macs, the package runs on the Mac. Why not move the schools totally over to OpenOffice.
"I haven't been to the NeoOffice website in a very long time.. least friendly.. their social skills.. feature set and bugs of NeoOffice as compared with Open Office, Microsoft Office, or iWork?...
What did they say exactly that got you so upset. Personally I find Emacs more than adequate, as long as you don't want rich text, and frames and bullets and a spell checker that obscures the word it asks if you want to change:)
"NeoOffice is a.. Based on the OpenOffice.org office suite"
"I regularly see Firefox go above 250 MB of memory, and nothing short of closing it entirely will get that memory back"
Firefox less than 60 MB, climbed just over 60 MB with five windows open and then dropped back witht a single window. Now just over 75 MB with ten windows open. Dropped back to just under 70 MB and holding and that's after stressing it by opening/closing multiple combinations of tabs and windows. If that's the memory leak issue then I guess I can live with it.
Dell says: Reinstall from the restore CD and hangs up
"choose between Vista/XP or Ubuntu so they can see the $50 savings on the configuration part of the process"
They get an equivilent GUI desktop for roughly $100.00 less.
"getting the computer at home and then having the realization they just got what they paid for. They will not be happy"
The get a GUI, a browser, email client, word processor and media player.
"Dell will have to field that support call from people who are CLUELESS to what Linux or an OS is"
I would guess that they get less support calls for Ubuntu as given hardware failures Linux is more stable over the long term. It doesn't go sluggish like Windows does and you have to reinstall every six months or abouts.
"Many of those support calls will end with, "you probably want to buy Windows" and"
The should do something like the one button restore Levovo offers. Or put a base diagnostic system that can be invoked at boot time. Besides which there's only one thing more futile that working in a call center, that is working in one.
"Yeah seeing as how I only have 5 tabs open (3 slashdot, 2 mostly plaintext sites) and Firefox has steadily increased its memory usiage from 170MB to 187MB now for me... Ooooh 188MB keeps going. 189MB. While I write this post"
Five tabs open, three slashdot, two plaintext, memory used less than 62 MB, while I write this post...
--
was: Re: How much memory does it consume? (Score:2)
Slashdot Mirror
"Last time I got involved in the GPL 3 debate, I got harassed quite a bit"
.. by placing limits on the hardware you are allowed to use"
I hope you don't think my comments are harassment but your comments are a distortion and an exact opposite of the case regarding the GPL, the so called restrictions and limits are designed to prevent others from imposing restrictions on what you can do with the software. See the other thread regarding TestDriven for a case in point.
"GPL 3 does limit what you do with the software
Yet again a gross distortion. Others in the preceding thread have pointed out that the hardware restrictions apply to prevent the Tivoization of GPL code. As the man said, why defend Tivoization?
"the developers failed to actually disable the extension functionality. There is no "technical limitation" to work around here", mpoulton
.."
"Microsoft intentionally wrote the extension functionality into the software, and failed to disable it", mpoulton
'Define "disable"
Ok I'll try and answer you both. I am not familiar enough with the innards of Visual DOT what ever it is, to comment on how his plug-in works and I assume that as you say, MS only hid the functionality and TestDriven figured out a way round this.
What's clear is that MS gave away the free version hoping that people who wanted the extra functionality would PAY for the full version. Ok, he has taken Express added value and is making money out of it. That is clearly against the spirit of the license. Whether MS lawyers weren't clear on the point is another matter.
What would TestDriven think if they were giving away a free limited version of an application hoping to make money out if the full one and I started selling an add-on that promoted it to the full version. I'm no fan of MS, but in this case TestDriven is being disingenuous when they say they can't understand why MS is miffed.
"they would never explain specifically which clause in the license was being violate"
It's a classic example of the differences between the Open Source and the closed sourced licensing model. I think it's perfectly clear, they provide a limited version of the product for free, the license forbids extending the functionality of Express. TestDriven extends the functionality, therefore it violates the license:
'You may not work around any technical limitations in the software'
"open source represents the anarchist form of socialist revolution .. go ahead and limit your choices and allow RMS to protect you by limiting those choices"
.. :)
..
The GPL actually acts to prevent others from limiting my choice in what I do with the software. The only proviso being I must also pass on such freedoms to others.
Your comments regarding anarchist reminds me of the writing of Dr. Nikolai Bezroukov. You aren't him by any chance
key words:
cult, social revolution, mutation, Socialist, anarchist, collectivized
Re:Don't like GPLv3? Run MSFT software
"In which case, exactly what patent protection does this contract provide?"
.. hereby covenants not to sue .. Customers for infringement under .. Patents.. .. for which the other Party has received Revenue"
Both agree not to sue each others customers in exchange for which Novell lends credence to Microsoft claims that Linux violates its patents. The protection only extends to end-users that Novell gets direct revenue from. So a company reselling Novell solutions would not be covered nor would its customers.
The covenant only applies to developers who do not receive revenue from SuSE and, at the suggestion of Microsoft, can be extended to developers of 'original work' for openSuSE, provided the original work is exclusively folded back into Novell SuSE, they receive no revenue from it and do not work on it in their employers time. They must also concede that MS patent claims apply to their own code. The actual wording is curious 'original work', which could mean the 'protection' also extends to properties and methods.
"Covenanting Party
Re:Not sure I buy the Novell comment
Has the Gentoo team revised the license so as to acknowledged their violations of Microsofts IP and patents.
It's not the browser, it sticks on links to third sites which go non responsive and the main slashdot has to wait. Waiting on ads.doubleclick etc ..
"If the final version of GPLv3 contains terms or conditions that interfere with our agreement with Microsoft or our ability to distribute GPLv3 code, Microsoft may cease to distribute Suse Linux coupons in order to avoid the extension of its patent covenants to a broader range of GPLv3 software recipients," Novell stated in the document"
.. nice.
;).
Well DOH, the 'covenant' only applies to a very restricted set of NOVL customers and specifically excludes downstream providers or developers of 'Original Work'. The pledge also lays claim to 'Original Work' and excludes openSuSE developers from working on their own code in company time. Any such work must also be rolled back into Novell SuSE. Not much of a covenant then.
Wow there, I just noticed something, it don't say original code, but original work, thereby extending the coverage to properties and methods? If this was cricket that would be know as throwing a googly
'1.10 "Customers" means an enterprise or individual that utilizes a specific copy of a Covered Product for its intended purpose as authorized by a Party in consideration for Revenue'
What is the definition of 'intended purpose' and 'utilizes' in the current context. Who defines 'intended purpose' and 'utilizes'. If these terms are not defined (I can't find them) or can be arbitarly changed by either party at a future date then of what use is it to me the 'customer' as a legal document. I'm not a lawyer, but this says to me the 'pledge' can be revoked at any time. By either party I assume. I do assume the NOVL lawyers got one too. I can't see it! I do assume the NOVL lawyers actually read it before signing!
"In addition, Microsoft reserves the right to prospectively update and revise the terms of this pledge"
A close reading of the 'covenant' and associated documents reveals its true purpose, to drive a wedge between the Commercial Sector and Open Source developers.
MICROSOFT - NOVELL PATENT COOPERATION AGREEMENT --
translation: I pledge not to sue you for indeterminate IP violations for a period that can be arbitrary revised, extended, canceled by me at any time. You agree that I own your own original work - not just code
Why is is that when I click the on the main slashdot page, it takes ages and hangs on sites like e.nvero.net, images.slashdot.org, zdmp.net, smartgetting etc. I know it doesn't matter on your fast connection, but it does mean I [waiting for images] don't [waiting for images] have [waiting for pages2.googlesyndication.com] to [waiting for images] wait [waiting for doubleclick] so [waiting for images] long [waiting for adserver] for [waiting for images again] a [waiting for google analytics] complete [ f*****g finally] page to appear ..
It's not just slashdot but most sites, clicking the back button doesn't make a difference as it still reloads from the web site. I thought the cache stored pages for resuse.
"The Windows XP Task manager, with tasks ordered by memory usage, showed that FF was using 270MB of RAM"
See my other posts, lots of Windows and tabs opened and closed, went up over 75 MB and then back to 58 MB and hung there. Maybe mine is a magic computer.
"about:config is the worst method of changing preferences that I have ever seen"
The alternate being a mass of sub-menus and click boxes. At least they are all in the one place.
Wouldn't that suck .. For fuck's sake, just stop using Windows
.. :)
..
Well yea, but the average Windows wouldn't notice. And the average non technical user flies in to a technological panic when confronted with anything new. For instance a writer who is still on Wordperfect on Windows 98. She copies and pastes into her email prog to send, otherwise her clients can't read the doc
Did I mention the one who has msWord set at 75% zoom and the fonts at 20, as she never learned to adjust the font size. At print out she selects 'reduce by 60%'
"What I was actually referring to is simple searches on interactions or vital information without advertisements"
..
Yea, a lot of hits are to fake pages with nothing but adverts and links to other search results. But that to do with website promotion where they put a lot a fake stuff in the meta tags.
Re:Yea, Google is evil
"When more than 50% of the CPU cycles in my PC go to security .. during the display of a simple HTML page in a browser i would say that our current approach is broken. Totally.
... :-S
Install DRDOS on Novell Netware circa 1993 and run Netscape off of diskless clients.
Re:Great
"Now, if only they would filter out the sites that CAUSE the malware and spyware"
.. :)
.. 64,300,000 hits ...
That would be the responcibility of the ISPs and the host providers.
"so many garbage/search sites come up when you search simple things like drug names and such"
Try the Product Search
Google search on viagra (the high blood pressure drug formerly knows as sildenafil citrate and remarketed as an aphrodisiac)
was Re:Google...
I thought Vista had User Account Control (formerly known as LUA) and Internet Explorer ran in Protected Mode, so why do you need this again?
How about running the whole OS in virtualization mode, that gets flushed at each boot.
When did Linux steal this innovative technology and rename it chroot.
Yep, that pretty much sums up the possible outcomes
Would this distributed DOS attack be possible without a vast army of compromised desktops being used as part of a botnet. Is it tecnnically possible to design against such attacks, or at least make it more difficult to compromise the desktops and route the rogue traffic. After all the Internet is supposed to be designed to be resistant to a nuclear attack. (I know Vint Cerf remembers it different)
"Without planning, forethought, notice and buy-in"
Like how, he just dropped msOffice. This isn't rocket science, it's the adoption of a software package in schools. They already use Macs, the package runs on the Mac. Why not move the schools totally over to OpenOffice.
was: Death Knell (Score:5, Insightful)
"I haven't been to the NeoOffice website in a very long time .. least friendly .. their social skills .. feature set and bugs of NeoOffice as compared with Open Office, Microsoft Office, or iWork? ...
:)
.. Based on the OpenOffice.org office suite"
What did they say exactly that got you so upset. Personally I find Emacs more than adequate, as long as you don't want rich text, and frames and bullets and a spell checker that obscures the word it asks if you want to change
"NeoOffice is a
was Re:They exaggerate
despite what you claim, it's not the cache
..
Cleared the cache and it's currently at 58 MB
"I regularly see Firefox go above 250 MB of memory, and nothing short of closing it entirely will get that memory back"
Firefox less than 60 MB, climbed just over 60 MB with five windows open and then dropped back witht a single window. Now just over 75 MB with ten windows open. Dropped back to just under 70 MB and holding and that's after stressing it by opening/closing multiple combinations of tabs and windows. If that's the memory leak issue then I guess I can live with it.
Customer: My computer won't bla, bla, bla
Dell says: Reinstall from the restore CD and hangs up
"choose between Vista/XP or Ubuntu so they can see the $50 savings on the configuration part of the process"
They get an equivilent GUI desktop for roughly $100.00 less.
"getting the computer at home and then having the realization they just got what they paid for. They will not be happy"
The get a GUI, a browser, email client, word processor and media player.
"Dell will have to field that support call from people who are CLUELESS to what Linux or an OS is"
I would guess that they get less support calls for Ubuntu as given hardware failures Linux is more stable over the long term. It doesn't go sluggish like Windows does and you have to reinstall every six months or abouts.
"Many of those support calls will end with, "you probably want to buy Windows" and"
The should do something like the one button restore Levovo offers. Or put a base diagnostic system that can be invoked at boot time. Besides which there's only one thing more futile that working in a call center, that is working in one.
Im seeing a lot made of the price difference
"Yeah seeing as how I only have 5 tabs open (3 slashdot, 2 mostly plaintext sites) and Firefox has steadily increased its memory usiage from 170MB to 187MB now for me... Ooooh 188MB keeps going. 189MB. While I write this post"
..
Five tabs open, three slashdot, two plaintext, memory used less than 62 MB, while I write this post.
--
was: Re: How much memory does it consume? (Score:2)
"So if that's all there is to "fix" it why don't they release an update then .."
..
There is no issue to fix, but if people want to restrict memory usage thec can tweak it using about:config.
Firefox still at 54 MB with two windows and two tabs open