I'm glad it's not sooner. We have three of these puppies sitting in the Harbor right now and it's looking crowded;-) They're pretty freaking cool though. You see the huge cruise ships right next to downtown and they're longer than the buildings are tall and the Carriers are across the harbor and they're even bigger. My brother has a 36' sailboat and when we go out and sail right by them it's nutty to look up at the mast which looks tall when you're in the open but doesn't even come close to the deck. Amazing that much steel can float.
Thanks for showing your true colors. Care to mention how those pesky kikes have all the money?
You are a fucking idiot. That was a paraphrase of three separate comments you made in your post. Those are *your* true colors. Wear them well.
Those poor, misunderstood Germans!
That's not what I said at all. You hawever, continue talking about the "poor misunderstood Jews" and then accusing me of some unspecified sine when I repeat your words. See above.
The "nutjobs who say the Jews are the Chosen People" are called, well, Jews. The only branch of Judaism that rejects the notion of being Chosen People is the Reconstructionist branch, which is pretty small. So you're spewing a lot of hate at Jews there.
First off, I'm not spewing any hate unlike yourself. Second, the nutjobs I am referring to are the ones who think they are god's chosen people. In strict Jewish law this is taken to mean that it is ok for a jew to rob a non jew, for a jew to cheat a non jew, for a jew to kill a non jew, and essentially that non jews are animals. How is this different than the Arabs attitude to the jews? It really is a simple pot kettle black case in these circumstances.
And Christians quite proudly proclaim that they are the new Chosen People, after the Jews rejected Jesus. So why is it OK for Christians to be Chosen, but not Jews? Oh, right. Bigotry.
Who said it was, Fuckwad? You. That's who. Not me. You truly are blinded by your percieved oppression. I couldn't give enough of a fuck about you to be bigoted against you. This is exactly the pity potty I was referring to earlier.
You know what's even worse than Israel? You can't even LIVE in Vatican City if you aren't a Catholic. Those bastards!
And again with the oh well someone else is worse. As if this means nothing is bad except for the worst possible thing. Your delusional denial is very very sad.
No, I'd say that when you say that Jews get all the breaks, then I think you're attacking Jews. Again, your words, not mine.
The "Israeli Zealot" approach is due to the fact that no one EVER, and I mean, EVER complains about any of these actions by other countries. They complain more about other countries than they do about Israel. This is tha case in America anyhow. Any criticism of Israel no matter how accurate or well put is instantly denounced as terrorist sympathy.
Do you think that if an observant Hindu was taking part in an "Ask Slashdot", people would ask him leading questions about Kashmir or the current religious riots in NW India (more than 1,000 Muslims killed since February, 100,000 refugees)?
Of course. If you weren't completely insane you would know this too.
Do you see people taking to the streets to protest these attacks, calling all Hindus Nazis? No, but you do see this happening to Arabs. How is this relevant? Oh yeah, it is exactly opposite of your point. Bizarre the inconsistent thoughts a deranged mind can harbor. Please seek help.
The silence from the world is deafening. I would have no problem with criticism of Israel if there was similar treatment of other countries. But there isn't.
Wow. You really don't look at any news source do you? Israel is never criticised in the US and other countries are constantly. India, Pakistan, the entire middle east with the exception of Israel.
Maybe you aren't a troll. I think you are just honestly completely out of touch with reality and need serious help. Or maybe you're just a really good troll.
This is standard practice, world-wide. You support the losing side in a war and leave your land, you lose your land. Nowhere else in the world is this referred to as "stealing land." Once again, Jews are singled out for a behavior engaged in by all people. That's bigoted.
No, it's called discussing a topic. Poor Jews always singled out as the bad guys. What a crock. What you are demonstrating is how if their actions are pointed to as bad then you will bitch and wine about how they are always singled out. They are given more slack than anybody. Your attitude is extremely bigoted. Of course it's bigoted in favor of Israel, hence not bigoted. Nice logic.
Racism has nothing to do with it. Fine, religionist then, just as bad if not worse. Of course, call it a religion and be told it's a race call it a race and be told it's a religion.
Anyone who is Jewish can become a citizen of Israel automatically. And anyone can convert to Judaism. Non-Jews can live in Israel and get citizenship; it's just not automatic.
Clearly religionist. It is still discrimination however you look at it.
Compare this to Germany, for example. There are ethnic Turks whose families have been in Germany for two or three generations, yet they aren't citizens. Got any moral outrage left over for that?
Now delete the part about their ethnicity. What does it take to get German citizenship? You imply that Turks are excluded and *any* other race would have it. I don't know if this is true or not, do you? If so, a rational argument would have indicated that. If not well..
Meanwhile, 400,000-600,000 Jews were thrown out of Arab countries after Israel became independant. Is this "racist" (to use your entirely poor word choice)? Where is your outrage? Oh, I forgot; only Jews deserve to be the targets of outrage.
Sure, this is racist, religionist whatever word you want to use. It is also the type of thing which is beaten into the ground by pro Israel zealots. Looking at things from a non-zealot perspective is attacked by the same people. The basic point I was trying to make which you are illustrating brilliantly is that the typical Iraeli zealot approach is to ignore any bad actions of Israel and to point to unrelated wrongs commited by others and accuse the person of *not* having a problem with that even though that is *not* what is being discussed. I am morally outraged by a lot of things in the modern world. Because I discuss one thing which isn't even a "moral outrage" to me, just pointing out an inconsistency, I am attacking jews.
Look at this crap you spew:
Oh, I forgot; only Jews deserve to be the targets of outrage.
No not at all. They do deserve it at times though. This is the point you are blinded to. Save the boo fucking hoo poor me pity party. You seem to be aware of other outrages. Don't allow yourself to ignore the possibility of it happening by your favored group.
Is it morally correct, oh he who sits in judgement of us all, that the supposed burial place of the Jewish patriarchs will be Judenrein?
Nice, I point out one problem and suddenly I'm sitting in judgement. Whatever. There is no morality whatsoever here. I do not know what you mean by Judenrein, but who fucking cares what you call the burial place. The Jewish patriarchs are nothing special. If you are one of those "jews are god's chosen people" nutjobs, then the sickeningness of that attitude won't be apparent to you.
Yes. Jews are, contrary to popular belief in Europe and Muslim countries, people.
OK, you win. You have revealed yourself as a troll. A good one I must admit, but while this is espoused by some Muslim leaders, to bring Europe into it like that shows a complete disociation with reality.
Non-Jewish citizens of Israel have voting rights, free speech rights, social services, etc. There are about 10 Arabs in the Kenesset. There is an Arab on the Israeli Supreme Court. The only "restriction" is that Arabs are not automatically drafted into the Israeli army (neither are religious Jews).
That said, is there discrimination in Israel? Yes....there is discrimination. But it's not state policy
These two statements are inconsistent. If there is *any* difference between government policy regarding jewish and non jewish citizens, then discrimination *is* state policy.
Horseshit. In 2002, calling a German a Nazi is a slur. In the 1940's, it was accurate. The planes, guns, etc. used by the Jews to defend Israel were built, designed, and intended for use by the Nazi party.
Most Germans were never Nazis. The fact that you call this accurate shows you to be an extremely bigoted person. Their country was led by the Nazi party, sure. You seem to be saying that all US people and military equipment were Democrat prior to the last election when they magically turned into Republicans. The situation that led to the Nazis being able to take over was, in large part, created by the allies at the end of WWI.
So according to you, the UN gave Israel, well, nothing.
Not nothing. Not much though. The question though is why did they deserve *anything*.
Many people in China believe that nobody has stepped foot on the moon before. That does not mean it is not true. Many people believe that people have set foot on the moon. Does that mean it is true? The difference is that there is a great deal of evidence for the Apollo landings.
Actually, from a membership percentage standpoint, I believe religions derive their God from the same source -- the God of Abraham, Isaac, etc... I suppose it's a point of technicality if you want to say that these gods are different in so far as their religions differ on certain theological claims.
This is just horrible. You have converted "Religion" to Judeo-Christianity.
According to my version of the 2002 Encyclopedia Britannica, Christianity accounts for 2 billion people worldwide. This makes it the world's most popular religion. FYI, of these 2 billion, 1 billion are Catholic.
According to a web search, the population of the world is over 6 billion. 6/2=3 3 is greater than 2. Hence most of the people in the world don't believe in your god. I think my point stands.
However, as I grew older I began to perceive what I thought were inconsistencies in my theological indoctrination.
I'm not sure if you're using this term facetiously or not. If not, I'm very surprised that you are arguing against me on this point. Your story is fairly common (in general, I'm not trying to marginalize your experiences). The point though isn't can you question a given religion's specific teachings, but are you even capable of truly questioning the underlying assumption. You can not answer this, having been indoctrinated from birth. I am certainly not claiming that I can either. It would require some very serious large scale psychological experimentation which would more than likely be illegal in any decent country. I think it is clear that you were predisposed to accept the existence of god by your upbringing.
However, you don't have to be religious to realize that children grow to question even those things that they once blindly accepted.
True in general. My research (term used verrrry loosly) seems to indicate that this happens more with attitudes or specific aspects of beliefs rather than at the primal level. Think about this. What if a child was brought up completely normally (whatever that means) with the exception that until they turned 18 they had never even heard of any sort of god. When they ask the sort of question that you would answer in that way, just say, "I don't know and neither does anybody else". What do you think the odds are that they will accept some religious belief rather than evidence.
I would not be disposed against my children learning about other religions. However, I would first want them to have a solid grounding in what I believe to be truth.
Hence predisposing them against any other belief. Why wouldn't you want them to have a solid grounding in the truth, reason and critical thinking rather than your beliefs. The truth is that you do not know where we all came from, etc., but you believe "insert your specific beliefs here" to be true.
How could I effectively communicate with my children if I did otherwise?
Very easily. This does sound like a cult mentality. Isolate them from other thoughts until they are sufficiently indoctrinated.
Open-minded discussion is valuable so long as truth is not marginalized for the sake of communion.
It sounds like you are marginalizing the truth for communion., "How could I effectively communicate with my children if I did otherwise?".
So how do you find the truth in anything? Employ a compass proven reliable!
The only things religion has proven itself reliable in is repression, destruction of knowledge to promote dogma, intolerance of other ideas. Sure, some members of some religions actually do good things, but the structure as a whole is bad. As soon as you postulate an absolute power who has no responsibility, you create a situation where any atrocity can be justified.
No, you made claimed twice that Jews were just GIVEN other people's land in 1948.
Yes I did. I can see where this is a poor choice of words as it is misleading.
In one of your previous statements:
The leaders of those countries told the Arabs living in Palestine to leave temporarily, so the armies wouldn't kill them by accident. Problem was that the Jews won, and Arabs who fled weren't allowed to return.
You clearly state that people who fled a war zone had their land stolen. Now, there are clearly justifications for this. At this point, Israel was a country in the eyes of many nations, so had they stayed and defended it things might have been different, but I doubt it. It was formed as a "Jewish State", which is a blatantly racist thing. So what about those Arabs who never left and didn't fight on the side of the attackers? They certainly do not have equal rights in the country.
Jews bought the weapons (ironically enough, much of it Nazi)
Your blatant racism is showing through here. The weapons were, in fact, German. German does not equal "Nazi". If you were to be consistent, your statement would have read, "The dirty fucking kikes bought the weapons". Now why do I think you would find this offensive, yet you freely offend others?
In fact, the oh-so-useful UN stood back and did nothing to protect or help the Jews when the Arabs attacked after rejecting the UN partition plan. So, no, nothing was given.
The right to found a country was given. The ability to defend it wasn't.
Glad you're not condemning, but you've got some seriously skewed facts going on there.
My facts are not the least bit skewed. I am very well aware of the history of the region. Your little history lesson is completely orthogonal to my statements.
One addition to your post:
Problem was that the Jews won, and Arabs who fled weren't allowed to return.
They were doubly fucked at this point. They weren't allowed back by Israel, and their host countries put them in concentration camps, blaming the jews, for the purpose of breeding killers. I'd say the plan worked, not that it was a good idea.
and Jew Haters worldwide have found a way to blame Jews for something done by someone else. True, but my point was related to the fact that "Jew Lovers", to use your phrasing, tend to ignore or outright attack any facts or opinions that do so much as imply that Jews are not always right and perfect angels in every way. In America anyway, a person making any statement made about Israel that might have any slight negative connotation is instantly labeled a Nazi. Similarly, pride in your ethnicity is encouraged a propagandized on TV unless you're white in which case expressing any pride in that makes you a racist. No side is Good, (almost) no side is Bad. It is important to be able to communicate about things keeping this in mind.
What if I told them that God made the world, but most people do not believe this? Would that still make me dishonest Darby?
In my opinion, yes it would. You are still stating it as if it were true rather than a belief. This is completely independent of whether or not your belief happens to be true.
Actually, I suspect most people do believe that God made the world.
a god perhaps, but which one? My point which was, as you indirectly pointed out, very poorly made, was that there are many different gods. In one sense, as many as there are different religions. So I was pointing out that christianity is a minority religion. This is an important point since many American christians do not believe this and argue the point if you point it out with zero facts at their disposal.
In another sense, of course, there are probably as many different gods as there are believers. (Plus more for religions that have more than one.
How much do think a six year old could understand?
Very little. Just that their parent who at that age is all knowing to them told them that this is an absolute truth. By the time they are old enough to think for themselves, it is very unlikely that they will be able to truly think completely rationally about this at any age since it has been imprinted at a very impressionable age.
Some things they need to be told, others are best discovered...
So wouldn't god be best discovered? Why is it that most if not all religions are completely geared to indoctrinating children from birth? Where is the problem in exposing a child to all of the major belief systems pointing out the similarities and differences of each one and encouraging them to find the one that they most agree with *including none of the above*. The only problem I can see with this method is that there is a good chance that they wouldn't choose yours. Now we were talking about this in terms of personal beliefs, but if you look at in terms of an organized religion it is obvious that they do this brainwashing for money and power.
I'm willing to bet that you are not the Pope, so your motivations at least have the possibility of being pure, but is your god so weak and powerless that he would disappear if you didn't indoctrinate new recruits and let a free mind with all available information make its own decision?
As opposed to every other people on the planet, who were crafted out of mud by their gods in the exact spot they happen to inhabit, right?
No, not at all opposed to that. I in no way implied that this hasn't always been common practice. What isn't common practice today is to take land away from people living on it to give it back to people whose ancestors lived there thousands of years ago. This is what happened with the creation of Israel. My point was that the general consensus seems to be that the Hebrews somehow deserve it but no other races do. Again, I'm not condemning anybody. I'm merely stating the simple fact that claiming Israel is "their ancestral homeland" somehow implies they have a right to it now. So according to your thinking, I can go to a house I used to live in and throw out the current occupants because it is my ancestral home. I also stated that I don't disagree with the creation of Israel. So your statement:
Your post is flamebait and a racist accusation, as it specifically condemns Jews for a practice engaged in by everyone, everywhere, at every time. Israel is as much the ancestral homeland of the Jews as Ireland is the ancestral homeland of the Irish, wiping out of the Picts notwithstanding
is idiotic.
Especially since in your example, the Jews are the Picts, not the current Irish.
You mean that a country founded by people returning to their ancestral homeland after being persecuted world-wide for the past 2,000 years wants to make sure that they aren't going to be a persecuted minority in their own homeland?
I believe by "ancestral homeland" you mean the land that they commited genocide on the previous occupants of to steal because their god told them to. The jews had no right to Israel at all. Now I'm not saying that it was necessarily a bad thing to have created Israel, but assuming they had some sort of entitlement to it is dead wrong. It was only their homeland thousands of years ago because they murdered every man woman and child who already lived there to steal their land. This is stated quite clearly in the bible. They, in fact, brag about it. Please spare me the flamebait and racist accusations. This post is neither. It is fact, you can look it up.
Science tells you 'who', 'what', 'where', 'when' and (if you do your homework, pay attention to nature and maybe get a little lucky) 'how'; Religion tells you 'why'. One is about *fact* while the other is about *truth*.
This is such a lame piece of brainwashed crap. Religion has nothing to do with truth. It is about belief. Because you believe something to be true doesn't make it "The Truth".
If you can't even seperate your belief from an actual truth (which of course there are whole philosophical discourses debating the existence of any such thing) then you are very close minded.
Seriously, if you have or will have children, what are you going to tell them? God made the world etc. This is an absolute truth. Or are you going to be honest with them and say, "I believe that this is true. Not everyone does." And assuming that you are a christian, would you go on to say, "In fact most of the people in the world do not believe what I do". The first is brainwashing pure and simple. Sort of screws up the whole free will thing. The second is honesty.
RoadRunner (provided by Time Warner in Austin, TX) requires you to purchase basic cable in addition to your cable Internet service. I'm sure AT&T will soon follow suit.
Not true in San Diego. In fact, they just recently knocked $5/month off of my roadrunner bill because I don't have cable TV. That was about the strangest letter I have ever received from a company. Then they called up to offer me a month of basic cable for free. I said sure what the hell. That was about 4 months ago and I'm still getting basic cable. No, I don't have my modem line split. I have 2 seperate cable lines.
The BBC article does not mention the fact, that SuSE is actually involved in this deal.
Well, you would be right except for the fact that the article specifically mentions that.
So you are completely wrong and several retarded moderators who also didn't read the article modded you up to informative rather than down as redundant.
Ever notice that when MS was everyone's friend and BG was a hero he was always dressed in jeans and a sweatshirt. It seems MS started down hill exactly at the same time Bill started wearing suits and ties.
Umm.. No. There was never such a time. MS was never anybody's friend, and BG was never a hero.
I would be surprised if they did. They don't sell anti virus software, and it does hurt their credibility (minimally, unfortunately) whenever one gets loose.
I've seen people do stuff like this with ssh a few times and I always wonder are you implying a -p password, have no password set, or does it just ask for a password (which would make it a no go for automated scripts).
Many people have suspected for YEARS that virus companies manufacture viruses to sell their products. I'm not saying they are, but this smells VERY fishy. I'd like some answers.
It's a absolute fact, not a suspicion. Now whether or not they would ever release one is a completely different question.
I question it a lot, but I don't see a few minor stupidities such as condoms as a reason to hate the US citizens.
Hate might be strong for this, but terrified would be perfectly reasonable. A country with so much firepower, yet acting in a way that can only be described as utterly insane is terrifying.
Why should some French guy I've never met hate me because of what the Chimp in a Suit says? I didn't say it, and I might disagree with him. I might agree. Just because I was born here doesn't mean I should be hated for what Bush, Clinton, the Senate/House, or any other scrotum who is elected says or does.
How about because we are causing wars all over the world. We overthrow democraticaly elected governments to install oppressive dictators for the purpose of improving corporate profits. Because we have an insane drug policy that puts an incredible proportion of our population in prison. The majority of the people don't agree with drug laws, yet the federal government will overturn state laws legalising them even though that is explicitly against the constitution. They do this because they get paid from both sides. They make insane amounts of money out of our pockets to fund the prison industry and the police. They make even more importing and selling the drugs. Don't believe that? Remember Iran Contra? It was shown in a televised senate investigation that the CIA *is* selling drugs. The CIA even published a report on their web site about some of it. The later more in depth report is still classified.
And no, I'm not anti-Bush or anything - I'd prefer him over Gore, but he does say/do stupid things an awful lot.
I agree that there is very little difference, but your slight preference doesn't justify accepting his leadership when he didn't win (they did a full recount and he lost.Look it up it's your fucking duty to be informed.) and was only close in Florida because his brother illegally stripped about 80,000 citizens of their right to vote.
I just don't like being hated for what someone I've never met says or does. It infuriates me.
When you refuse to inform yourself about what is going on and your convenient lifestyle is built on the blood of the rest of the world, they have a reason. When our country claims to love freedom and then take it away from others to support ourselves, how could you possibly expect them not to hate you?
Before you just ignore this or knee-jerk off a disbelieving reply, check it out. Inform yourself. The price of freedom is eternal vigilance. This means that at the least if you want to call America free then it is your responsibility to actively inform yourself rather than accept whatever the corporate owned media wants you to think.
Slashdot Mirror
Well, Bob, I just thought it was.
You shouldn't flame random 31337 hackers who can track you.
How is Riverside, anyway?
If I died suddenly
But since you're necro spork, aren't you already dead?
Of course you completely ignore the rest of my post.
planned arrival in San Diego in 2004,
;-) They're pretty freaking cool though. You see the huge cruise ships right next to downtown and they're longer than the buildings are tall and the Carriers are across the harbor and they're even bigger. My brother has a 36' sailboat and when we go out and sail right by them it's nutty to look up at the mast which looks tall when you're in the open but doesn't even come close to the deck. Amazing that much steel can float.
I'm glad it's not sooner. We have three of these puppies sitting in the Harbor right now and it's looking crowded
Thanks for showing your true colors. Care to mention how those pesky kikes have all the money?
You are a fucking idiot. That was a paraphrase of three separate comments you made in your post. Those are *your* true colors. Wear them well.
Those poor, misunderstood Germans!
That's not what I said at all. You hawever, continue talking about the "poor misunderstood Jews" and then accusing me of some unspecified sine when I repeat your words. See above.
The "nutjobs who say the Jews are the Chosen People" are called, well, Jews. The only branch of Judaism that rejects the notion of being Chosen People is the Reconstructionist branch, which is pretty small. So you're spewing a lot of hate at Jews there.
First off, I'm not spewing any hate unlike yourself.
Second, the nutjobs I am referring to are the ones who think they are god's chosen people. In strict Jewish law this is taken to mean that it is ok for a jew to rob a non jew, for a jew to cheat a non jew, for a jew to kill a non jew, and essentially that non jews are animals.
How is this different than the Arabs attitude to the jews? It really is a simple pot kettle black case in these circumstances.
And Christians quite proudly proclaim that they are the new Chosen People, after the Jews rejected Jesus. So why is it OK for Christians to be Chosen, but not Jews? Oh, right. Bigotry.
Who said it was, Fuckwad? You. That's who.
Not me. You truly are blinded by your percieved oppression. I couldn't give enough of a fuck about you to be bigoted against you.
This is exactly the pity potty I was referring to earlier.
You know what's even worse than Israel? You can't even LIVE in Vatican City if you aren't a Catholic. Those bastards!
And again with the oh well someone else is worse. As if this means nothing is bad except for the worst possible thing.
Your delusional denial is very very sad.
No, I'd say that when you say that Jews get all the breaks, then I think you're attacking Jews.
Again, your words, not mine.
The "Israeli Zealot" approach is due to the fact that no one EVER, and I mean, EVER complains about any of these actions by other countries.
They complain more about other countries than they do about Israel. This is tha case in America anyhow. Any criticism of Israel no matter how accurate or well put is instantly denounced as terrorist sympathy.
Do you think that if an observant Hindu was taking part in an "Ask Slashdot", people would ask him leading questions about Kashmir or the current religious riots in NW India (more than 1,000 Muslims killed since February, 100,000 refugees)?
Of course. If you weren't completely insane you would know this too.
Do you see people taking to the streets to protest these attacks, calling all Hindus Nazis?
No, but you do see this happening to Arabs. How is this relevant? Oh yeah, it is exactly opposite of your point. Bizarre the inconsistent thoughts a deranged mind can harbor. Please seek help.
The silence from the world is deafening. I would have no problem with criticism of Israel if there was similar treatment of other countries. But there isn't.
Wow. You really don't look at any news source do you? Israel is never criticised in the US and other countries are constantly. India, Pakistan, the entire middle east with the exception of Israel.
Maybe you aren't a troll. I think you are just honestly completely out of touch with reality and need serious help. Or maybe you're just a really good troll.
As for things to do in Chicago, c'mon, it's a major city.
I was being facetious on that bit. I do appreciate the links though.
ZXKUQYB!
;-) ;-)
(I'll bet that doesn't make it past the lameness filter)
Heh, it did and right you are
Probably no more clear to the uninitiated though
This is standard practice, world-wide. You support the losing side in a war and leave your land, you lose your land. Nowhere else in the world is this referred to as "stealing land." Once again, Jews are singled out for a behavior engaged in by all people. That's bigoted.
...there is discrimination. But it's not state policy
No, it's called discussing a topic. Poor Jews always singled out as the bad guys. What a crock. What you are demonstrating is how if their actions are pointed to as bad then you will bitch and wine about how they are always singled out. They are given more slack than anybody. Your attitude is extremely bigoted. Of course it's bigoted in favor of Israel, hence not bigoted. Nice logic.
Racism has nothing to do with it.
Fine, religionist then, just as bad if not worse. Of course, call it a religion and be told it's a race call it a race and be told it's a religion.
Anyone who is Jewish can become a citizen of Israel automatically. And anyone can convert to Judaism. Non-Jews can live in Israel and get citizenship; it's just not automatic.
Clearly religionist. It is still discrimination however you look at it.
Compare this to Germany, for example. There are ethnic Turks whose families have been in Germany for two or three generations, yet they aren't citizens. Got any moral outrage left over for that?
Now delete the part about their ethnicity. What does it take to get German citizenship? You imply that Turks are excluded and *any* other race would have it. I don't know if this is true or not, do you? If so, a rational argument would have indicated that. If not well..
Meanwhile, 400,000-600,000 Jews were thrown out of Arab countries after Israel became independant. Is this "racist" (to use your entirely poor word choice)? Where is your outrage? Oh, I forgot; only Jews deserve to be the targets of outrage.
Sure, this is racist, religionist whatever word you want to use. It is also the type of thing which is beaten into the ground by pro Israel zealots. Looking at things from a non-zealot perspective is attacked by the same people.
The basic point I was trying to make which you are illustrating brilliantly is that the typical Iraeli zealot approach is to ignore any bad actions of Israel and to point to unrelated wrongs commited by others and accuse the person of *not* having a problem with that even though that is *not* what is being discussed. I am morally outraged by a lot of things in the modern world. Because I discuss one thing which isn't even a "moral outrage" to me, just pointing out an inconsistency, I am attacking jews.
Look at this crap you spew:
Oh, I forgot; only Jews deserve to be the targets of outrage.
No not at all. They do deserve it at times though.
This is the point you are blinded to. Save the boo fucking hoo poor me pity party. You seem to be aware of other outrages. Don't allow yourself to ignore the possibility of it happening by your favored group.
Is it morally correct, oh he who sits in judgement of us all, that the supposed burial place of the Jewish patriarchs will be Judenrein?
Nice, I point out one problem and suddenly I'm sitting in judgement. Whatever.
There is no morality whatsoever here.
I do not know what you mean by Judenrein, but who fucking cares what you call the burial place. The Jewish patriarchs are nothing special. If you are one of those "jews are god's chosen people" nutjobs, then the sickeningness of that attitude won't be apparent to you.
Yes. Jews are, contrary to popular belief in Europe and Muslim countries, people.
OK, you win. You have revealed yourself as a troll. A good one I must admit, but while this is espoused by some Muslim leaders, to bring Europe into it like that shows a complete disociation with reality.
Non-Jewish citizens of Israel have voting rights, free speech rights, social services, etc. There are about 10 Arabs in the Kenesset. There is an Arab on the Israeli Supreme Court. The only "restriction" is that Arabs are not automatically drafted into the Israeli army (neither are religious Jews).
That said, is there discrimination in Israel? Yes.
These two statements are inconsistent. If there is *any* difference between government policy regarding jewish and non jewish citizens, then discrimination *is* state policy.
Horseshit. In 2002, calling a German a Nazi is a slur. In the 1940's, it was accurate. The planes, guns, etc. used by the Jews to defend Israel were built, designed, and intended for use by the Nazi party.
Most Germans were never Nazis. The fact that you call this accurate shows you to be an extremely bigoted person. Their country was led by the Nazi party, sure. You seem to be saying that all US people and military equipment were Democrat prior to the last election when they magically turned into Republicans. The situation that led to the Nazis being able to take over was, in large part, created by the allies at the end of WWI.
So according to you, the UN gave Israel, well, nothing.
Not nothing. Not much though. The question though is why did they deserve *anything*.
I've mourned for places in Chicago
I just got a 6-9 month contract in Vernon Hills, right northwest of Chicago that I start in 2 weeks.
What's there to do around there?
Many people in China believe that nobody has stepped foot on the moon before. That does not mean it is not true.
Many people believe that people have set foot on the moon. Does that mean it is true?
The difference is that there is a great deal of evidence for the Apollo landings.
Actually, from a membership percentage standpoint, I believe religions derive their God from the same source -- the God of Abraham, Isaac, etc... I suppose it's a point of technicality if you want to say that these gods are different in so far as their religions differ on certain theological claims.
This is just horrible. You have converted "Religion" to Judeo-Christianity.
According to my version of the 2002 Encyclopedia Britannica, Christianity accounts for 2 billion people worldwide. This makes it the world's most popular religion. FYI, of these 2 billion, 1 billion are Catholic.
According to a web search, the population of the world is over 6 billion. 6/2=3 3 is greater than 2. Hence most of the people in the world don't believe in your god. I think my point stands.
However, as I grew older I began to perceive what I thought were inconsistencies in my theological indoctrination.
I'm not sure if you're using this term facetiously or not. If not, I'm very surprised that you are arguing against me on this point.
Your story is fairly common (in general, I'm not trying to marginalize your experiences).
The point though isn't can you question a given religion's specific teachings, but are you even capable of truly questioning the underlying assumption. You can not answer this, having been indoctrinated from birth. I am certainly not claiming that I can either. It would require some very serious large scale psychological experimentation which would more than likely be illegal in any decent country. I think it is clear that you were predisposed to accept the existence of god by your upbringing.
However, you don't have to be religious to realize that children grow to question even those things that they once blindly accepted.
True in general. My research (term used verrrry loosly) seems to indicate that this happens more with attitudes or specific aspects of beliefs rather than at the primal level.
Think about this. What if a child was brought up completely normally (whatever that means) with the exception that until they turned 18 they had never even heard of any sort of god. When they ask the sort of question that you would answer in that way, just say, "I don't know and neither does anybody else". What do you think the odds are that they will accept some religious belief rather than evidence.
I would not be disposed against my children learning about other religions. However, I would first want them to have a solid grounding in what I believe to be truth.
Hence predisposing them against any other belief.
Why wouldn't you want them to have a solid grounding in the truth, reason and critical thinking rather than your beliefs. The truth is that you do not know where we all came from, etc., but you believe "insert your specific beliefs here" to be true.
How could I effectively communicate with my children if I did otherwise?
Very easily. This does sound like a cult mentality. Isolate them from other thoughts until they are sufficiently indoctrinated.
Open-minded discussion is valuable so long as truth is not marginalized for the sake of communion.
It sounds like you are marginalizing the truth for communion., "How could I effectively communicate with my children if I did otherwise?".
So how do you find the truth in anything? Employ a compass proven reliable!
The only things religion has proven itself reliable in is repression, destruction of knowledge to promote dogma, intolerance of other ideas.
Sure, some members of some religions actually do good things, but the structure as a whole is bad.
As soon as you postulate an absolute power who has no responsibility, you create a situation where any atrocity can be justified.
No, you made claimed twice that Jews were just GIVEN other people's land in 1948.
Yes I did. I can see where this is a poor choice of words as it is misleading.
In one of your previous statements:
The leaders of those countries told the Arabs living in Palestine to leave temporarily, so the armies wouldn't kill them by accident. Problem was that the Jews won, and Arabs who fled weren't allowed to return.
You clearly state that people who fled a war zone had their land stolen. Now, there are clearly justifications for this. At this point, Israel was a country in the eyes of many nations, so had they stayed and defended it things might have been different, but I doubt it. It was formed as a "Jewish State", which is a blatantly racist thing.
So what about those Arabs who never left and didn't fight on the side of the attackers? They certainly do not have equal rights in the country.
Jews bought the weapons (ironically enough, much of it Nazi)
Your blatant racism is showing through here.
The weapons were, in fact, German. German does not equal "Nazi".
If you were to be consistent, your statement would have read, "The dirty fucking kikes bought the weapons".
Now why do I think you would find this offensive, yet you freely offend others?
In fact, the oh-so-useful UN stood back and did nothing to protect or help the Jews when the Arabs attacked after rejecting the UN partition plan. So, no, nothing was given.
The right to found a country was given. The ability to defend it wasn't.
Glad you're not condemning, but you've got some seriously skewed facts going on there.
My facts are not the least bit skewed. I am very well aware of the history of the region.
Your little history lesson is completely orthogonal to my statements.
One addition to your post:
Problem was that the Jews won, and Arabs who fled weren't allowed to return.
They were doubly fucked at this point. They weren't allowed back by Israel, and their host countries put them in concentration camps, blaming the jews, for the purpose of breeding killers.
I'd say the plan worked, not that it was a good idea.
and Jew Haters worldwide have found a way to blame Jews for something done by someone else.
True, but my point was related to the fact that "Jew Lovers", to use your phrasing, tend to ignore or outright attack any facts or opinions that do so much as imply that Jews are not always right and perfect angels in every way.
In America anyway, a person making any statement made about Israel that might have any slight negative connotation is instantly labeled a Nazi.
Similarly, pride in your ethnicity is encouraged a propagandized on TV unless you're white in which case expressing any pride in that makes you a racist.
No side is Good, (almost) no side is Bad. It is important to be able to communicate about things keeping this in mind.
You can thank me later for the lesson.
No need.
Damn it's nice to see Commodore text these days. Brings me back yo the old days. Sigh. :) ;-)
OK then... where did I get my sig
What if I told them that God made the world, but most people do not believe this? Would that still make me dishonest Darby?
In my opinion, yes it would. You are still stating it as if it were true rather than a belief. This is completely independent of whether or not your belief happens to be true.
Actually, I suspect most people do believe that God made the world.
a god perhaps, but which one? My point which was, as you indirectly pointed out, very poorly made, was that there are many different gods. In one sense, as many as there are different religions. So I was pointing out that christianity is a minority religion. This is an important point since many American christians do not believe this and argue the point if you point it out with zero facts at their disposal.
In another sense, of course, there are probably as many different gods as there are believers. (Plus more for religions that have more than one.
How much do think a six year old could understand?
Very little. Just that their parent who at that age is all knowing to them told them that this is an absolute truth. By the time they are old enough to think for themselves, it is very unlikely that they will be able to truly think completely rationally about this at any age since it has been imprinted at a very impressionable age.
Some things they need to be told, others are best discovered...
So wouldn't god be best discovered? Why is it that most if not all religions are completely geared to indoctrinating children from birth?
Where is the problem in exposing a child to all of the major belief systems pointing out the similarities and differences of each one and encouraging them to find the one that they most agree with *including none of the above*.
The only problem I can see with this method is that there is a good chance that they wouldn't choose yours. Now we were talking about this in terms of personal beliefs, but if you look at in terms of an organized religion it is obvious that they do this brainwashing for money and power.
I'm willing to bet that you are not the Pope, so your motivations at least have the possibility of being pure, but is your god so weak and powerless that he would disappear if you didn't indoctrinate new recruits and let a free mind with all available information make its own decision?
As opposed to every other people on the planet, who were crafted out of mud by their gods in the exact spot they happen to inhabit, right?
No, not at all opposed to that. I in no way implied that this hasn't always been common practice. What isn't common practice today is to take land away from people living on it to give it back to people whose ancestors lived there thousands of years ago. This is what happened with the creation of Israel. My point was that the general consensus seems to be that the Hebrews somehow deserve it but no other races do. Again, I'm not condemning anybody. I'm merely stating the simple fact that claiming Israel is "their ancestral homeland" somehow implies they have a right to it now. So according to your thinking, I can go to a house I used to live in and throw out the current occupants because it is my ancestral home. I also stated that I don't disagree with the creation of Israel. So your statement:
Your post is flamebait and a racist accusation, as it specifically condemns Jews for a practice engaged in by everyone, everywhere, at every time. Israel is as much the ancestral homeland of the Jews as Ireland is the ancestral homeland of the Irish, wiping out of the Picts notwithstanding
is idiotic.
Especially since in your example, the Jews are the Picts, not the current Irish.
You mean that a country founded by people returning to their ancestral homeland after being persecuted world-wide for the past 2,000 years wants to make sure that they aren't going to be a persecuted minority in their own homeland?
I believe by "ancestral homeland" you mean the land that they commited genocide on the previous occupants of to steal because their god told them to. The jews had no right to Israel at all. Now I'm not saying that it was necessarily a bad thing to have created Israel, but assuming they had some sort of entitlement to it is dead wrong.
It was only their homeland thousands of years ago because they murdered every man woman and child who already lived there to steal their land.
This is stated quite clearly in the bible. They, in fact, brag about it.
Please spare me the flamebait and racist accusations. This post is neither. It is fact, you can look it up.
Science tells you 'who', 'what', 'where', 'when' and (if you do your homework, pay attention to nature and maybe get a little lucky) 'how'; Religion tells you 'why'. One is about *fact* while the other is about *truth*.
This is such a lame piece of brainwashed crap.
Religion has nothing to do with truth. It is about belief. Because you believe something to be true doesn't make it "The Truth".
If you can't even seperate your belief from an actual truth (which of course there are whole philosophical discourses debating the existence of any such thing) then you are very close minded.
Seriously, if you have or will have children, what are you going to tell them?
God made the world etc. This is an absolute truth.
Or are you going to be honest with them and say, "I believe that this is true. Not everyone does."
And assuming that you are a christian, would you go on to say, "In fact most of the people in the world do not believe what I do".
The first is brainwashing pure and simple. Sort of screws up the whole free will thing.
The second is honesty.
How will you treat your children?
RoadRunner (provided by Time Warner in Austin, TX) requires you to purchase basic cable in addition to your cable Internet service. I'm sure AT&T will soon follow suit.
Not true in San Diego. In fact, they just recently knocked $5/month off of my roadrunner bill because I don't have cable TV. That was about the strangest letter I have ever received from a company.
Then they called up to offer me a month of basic cable for free. I said sure what the hell. That was about 4 months ago and I'm still getting basic cable. No, I don't have my modem line split. I have 2 seperate cable lines.
The BBC article does not mention the fact, that SuSE is actually involved in this deal.
Well, you would be right except for the fact that the article specifically mentions that.
So you are completely wrong and several retarded moderators who also didn't read the article modded you up to informative rather than down as redundant.
Ever notice that when MS was everyone's friend and BG was a hero he was always dressed in jeans and a sweatshirt. It seems MS started down hill exactly at the same time Bill started wearing suits and ties.
Umm.. No. There was never such a time. MS was never anybody's friend, and BG was never a hero.
Sweet. Thanks.
What about Microsoft creating such virus ?
I would be surprised if they did. They don't sell anti virus software, and it does hurt their credibility (minimally, unfortunately) whenever one gets loose.
`tar cf - foo | ssh bar tar -C daz -xvf -'
I've seen people do stuff like this with ssh a few times and I always wonder are you implying a -p password, have no password set, or does it just ask for a password (which would make it a no go for automated scripts).
Many people have suspected for YEARS that virus companies manufacture viruses to sell their products. I'm not saying they are, but this smells VERY fishy. I'd like some answers.
It's a absolute fact, not a suspicion.
Now whether or not they would ever release one is a completely different question.
I question it a lot, but I don't see a few minor stupidities such as condoms as a reason to hate the US citizens.
Hate might be strong for this, but terrified would be perfectly reasonable. A country with so much firepower, yet acting in a way that can only be described as utterly insane is terrifying.
Why should some French guy I've never met hate me because of what the Chimp in a Suit says? I didn't say it, and I might disagree with him. I might agree. Just because I was born here doesn't mean I should be hated for what Bush, Clinton, the Senate/House, or any other scrotum who is elected says or does.
How about because we are causing wars all over the world. We overthrow democraticaly elected governments to install oppressive dictators for the purpose of improving corporate profits. Because we have an insane drug policy that puts an incredible proportion of our population in prison. The majority of the people don't agree with drug laws, yet the federal government will overturn state laws legalising them even though that is explicitly against the constitution. They do this because they get paid from both sides. They make insane amounts of money out of our pockets to fund the prison industry and the police. They make even more importing and selling the drugs. Don't believe that? Remember Iran Contra? It was shown in a televised senate investigation that the CIA *is* selling drugs. The CIA even published a report on their web site about some of it. The later more in depth report is still classified.
And no, I'm not anti-Bush or anything - I'd prefer him over Gore, but he does say/do stupid things an awful lot.
I agree that there is very little difference, but your slight preference doesn't justify accepting his leadership when he didn't win (they did a full recount and he lost.Look it up it's your fucking duty to be informed.) and was only close in Florida because his brother illegally stripped about 80,000 citizens of their right to vote.
I just don't like being hated for what someone I've never met says or does. It infuriates me.
When you refuse to inform yourself about what is going on and your convenient lifestyle is built on the blood of the rest of the world, they have a reason.
When our country claims to love freedom and then take it away from others to support ourselves, how could you possibly expect them not to hate you?
Before you just ignore this or knee-jerk off a disbelieving reply, check it out. Inform yourself.
The price of freedom is eternal vigilance. This means that at the least if you want to call America free then it is your responsibility to actively inform yourself rather than accept whatever the corporate owned media wants you to think.