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AOpen Debuts The Funniest Motherboard Ever
Anonymous Coward X-11 writes "Has AOpen gone flipping nuts by putting vacuum tubes on its motherboards?
AX4B-533Tube
No, it's not replacing logic ICs with discrete components. The tubes are part of the on board audio. Not sure if they are serious about this. April 1 was two months ago." As an owner of a tube headphone amplifier I applaud AOpen's move to accomodate the high-end audio enthusiast, while simultaneous wondering about the ability of a switched psu to properly drive a tube amplification stage cleanly. There's no way this is for real, right? Right? Here's a link that seems to work pretty well. And this looks pretty, well, real. Update: /. reader Jedi1USA noted that HardOCP has more pics of the board.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
More heat in my PC Box... that's a top idea. In fact, along with a couple of valves, let's throw in a few radiator elements, then you could have a PC case that you can cook mashmallows on.... mmmm, sweet, sticky goodness.
My dad claims that some people like the sound of vacuum tube amps, so maybe this isn't nuts. But how do they deal with unfortunate tendency of vacuum tubes to burn out?
I'm the stranger...posting to
I bet you've got a 12AX7 on there, considering they said it had a 'dual triode' tube in there. They're also some of the cheapest valves out there.
Detachment 3 Media
Exposed, Exploited, Exploded
next thing we will see will be "Coax display output" ... go figure , some people never learn !
Who are you kidding, AOpen? Leave the high-end audio to the specialists, and leave it off your mobo!
Websurfing done right! StumbleUpon
making fun of this, please keep in mind that some of the best high-end amplifiers made today still use vaccuum tubes. Tubes are capable of making extremely high-quality sound, and whether this is because of their "warm sound" as enthusiasts claim or just because of sound degradation that sounds good to some people - well, that's just a matter of personal preference.
That there are any options for high-quality on-board audio at all - this can only be a good thing.
will this obsolete/phase out ISA? What am I going to do w/my 3c509?
A move in the right direction. I think I'm gonna wait for the version with a tesla coil on it tho.
Buying a new car that has automatic transmission, 60mpg, dashboard computer, GPS, and also an 8-track player. And by the way, vacuum tubes and AGP slots were never meant to be in the same picture. I'm sorry, but it just ain't right.
I'm the stranger...posting to
That is the question.
A lot of audiophile tubes are sourced from Russian or Chinese factories. It would suck to blow the tube playing GTA3 and have to wait 12 weeks for a shipment from the far east!
As a once snobbish, now reformed ex-audiophile, I cannot resist but slip back to the affected, bombastic days of my youth and exclaim "It's about freakin' time! Now when are we going to replace these markedly inferior CD-ROMs and DVD-ROMs with the gloriously mellifluous LP-ROM?"
There aren't enough components on the board (that I can see) unless there is an external power supply.
Most tubes are going to require abot 16,000 volts to the grid. You'll need a nice-sized transformer to step up normal line current to that. And if it's powered off the MB power harness.....well, I son't think that's even possible. What's the highest voltage there? 12v? That trnasformer would have to be huge.
And all of that isn't even taking in to account the heat problems.
Do not fold, spindle or mutilate.
Neat photo, but a couple of problems:
Chrisd's right on about the power supply, valves have pretty demanding power requirements, and the voltage is much higher (300+ volts is typical) than what's normally present in a PC.
Also, most tube amps require output transformers, which is noticably absent from the photo.
Thirdly, there's only one tube! Presumably, if they are really after the audiophile market, it would at least be a stereo amplifier. Not to say anything about the noise problems present near high speed digital circuits. This is bunk.
This can not be for real. Tubes tend to draw considerably more current than a darlington pair. They generate much more heat. In a PC case I would think that they would be far more susceptible to RF interference, as well. Not to mention, what would be the possible upside to doing this. There is next to no market for tube amps even in the Hi-fi market. Anything that has then cost a ton of money compared to solid state amps. This just seems really far fetched. Technical issues aside, there must be zero market demand for this. No audiophile would want this and it would appear that would be their only market for this.
You can also check out a IEEE story they link to about vacuum tubes and their uses in modern audio.
It uses physical forms actually cut into a vinyl disk to reproduce sound. Rather than a traditional 5 1/4 disk bay it will be a USB 2.0 periperal and look something like these devices. Analog audiophiles rejoice! I play guitar and I do have to say I enjoy the sound of a classic tube amp. I wonder how odd and expensive will it be to say... Uh yeah I need a vacuum tube replacement for my computer.
Still, could be interesting for your HTPC
i think this could be a really cool move for people who want really high-fi/audiophile sound,
BUT useing the ac 97 codec??? i have never heard very good sound out of one of them, and i have always found it to be just that codec, if they would do it with a good audio chip, it would be much better.
just my thoughts...
Here is what the board looks like. It is not yet ./'ed so look quick. =)
Does this look like a johnny-come-lately AT7 or IT7? While the Abit offering looks like a smash hit (according to some review sites that I refuse to promote), this looks like it's a niche market at best. How many of these do they hope to sell? I understand that there are people who've spent more than the price of a cheap BMW on their stereos, but why, oh why, would they buy this for their computer? Can you get a DAT player for computers these days?
Michael C. Hollinger
[Timeout expired]
uh... so it the odbc connection timed out, or the time it allows to timeout expired?
i think [ODBC fuckup] explains it much better.
MARIJUANA, SHROOMS, X: ONLINE?! - E
I'm honestly asking. Would a single tube of that size after digital processing really have a major effect on sound quality? I thought the neat thing about tubes were the warmth and natural distortion they provide (in the same way as analog recording). If it has already gone through digital processing with the inherently less forgiving limits and peaks, wouldn't that actually hurt the quality? And what's the deal with that power input near the tube?
This whole thing seems kinda skimpy on details... I hope this doesn't give Creative any ideas. The last thing we need is a PCI SB Live card with this stuff on it:
This quality Creative Sound Blaster(tm) product requires the space of four PCI slots and a special attachment for your power supply.
Macintosh will be a computer.
KFG
Tubes tend to produce even-order harmonics when they distort. Transistors (except MOSFETS -- others?) produce odd-order harmonics. Of the two, odd-order harmonics are much more annoying from a psycho-acoustic standpoint and lead to what many describe as a "harsh" sound. Tubes also have the advantage of not clipping hard (producing a DC output) because they have to run through transformers to drive speakers and, as we all know, transformers don't pass DC.
That's a gross oversimplification that leaves out much that I know, some that I think I know but don't really, and stuff other people actually know that I don't know at all. But that's the gist of it.
Is it of any use on a motherboard? Sure. It's great gimmick to sell to idiots. So how do they get stereo out of a single tube? It looks too small to be the two-tubes-in-one variety.
One thing I noticed is that it has a watchdog timer -- that leads me to think they are posing it for the embedded market; specifically for those who want to integrate it as part of a high-end audio gear setup that requires minimal user interaction.
:)
As an aside, don't tubes kick out a lot of heat? Any bets as to when we're going to see a Thermaltake Golden Orb for tubes?
Hilary Rosen's speech was about her love of money and her desire to roll around naked in a pile of money.
Why do companies cater to these Audiophile nutcases? Stuff like monster cable, tube amps, and 20 lb power strips. What a waste of money...
Oh wait. Money. THAT's why companies cater to those nuts. I wonder how much extra this mobo will cost, and if they'll send out Jeves with while gloves and a new tube (for a sizable fee) when yours burns out.
-pmb
Compared to a high-end Pentium IV, a vacuum tube probably counts as a heat sink...
... the Signetics 9046xN Write Only Memory? (which, as you recall, has V(pp) pins for the filaments)
- Mike
I see only one tube and, considering the specs mention 5.1 surround sound, I can't see how this tube could be part of the pre-amp/power amp signal chain. I've owned a few tube amps in my time (stereo, guitar, and bass) and usually there's a couple of 12AX7s in the pre-amp stage and a few 6L6s or EL-34s in the power amp stage per channel. This is one small tube for six channels.
k.
"In spite of everything, I still believe that people are really good at heart." - Anne Frank
Core Dumped
...wait! Mod me down because I'm anti-Linux! Thanks for your fairness, moderators.
I was really hoping for this to be for analog computing.
In the field of chaos theory, and cryptography, and countless others, analog computing is great. To have an analog accelerator, much as one has a 3D accelerator, or floating point module, would be great. The tubes could be rewired on the fly, like an FPGA, allowing the programmer do all kinds of things. Imagine if the programmer could work in voltages, with chaotic effects giving true random numbers. Using this chaotic data, you could form clouds and other random events for games, perform neural network calculations and countless other things.
The analog systems helping the digital ones would be quite a revolution.
-twb
^
|
Karma Whore
As a muso who has always used Tube based amps for that rich warm tone that you can only get when those 6L6's and EL84's are glowing a nice red colour I know why you would want to do this as an audiophile. I just don't think it's very smart.
Here's why;
Heat - I never rest my beer on top of my amp, not because I'm afraid it will spill. I just don't like warm beer. Half-way through the first set and the top of my Bassman is warm enough to send my beer cool in a few minutes. And that's through 3/4" ply and some varnished covered tweed.
Heat - A mate of mine who does repairs on guitar amps has cursed the fate of many Mesa Boogie amps of the early - mid 90's, tube tone was no longer passe' but unfortunately, anyone that knew anything about engineering electronics for tube use had become passe. The problem was that the tubes sockets for the Mesa's were soldered right onto the main circuit board - after a few short months of club use these amps were toast! The tubes had caused enough damage to the main board that they had to be replaced. Leo Fender designed his amps so that the tubes were mounted off the main board, and still does to a certain extent.
Heat - Well kinda, guys, it's just not cool. If you really dig your tunes and are a true audiophile, you'll get yourself a device that is purpose built for the reproduction of music. Yeah, you're 'putey is kewl. But it's not one of these.
I do think that this board is kinda funny.
If they are serious (which I doubt), then they would be using a matched pair of tubes, not a single tube. Of course, they could also be reverting from stereo to mono. Anyway, tubes rock! I've got about a hundred of them sitting around for various projects, none of which involve motherboards.
From the photo it looks like you're giving up two PCI slots for the tube and associated electronics, which are about as far away from the audio output as one could possibly place them. So you have to run the tube'd audio past all this noise, and they're not advertising balanced lines.
For my two PCI slots in the ultimate audiophile machine, I think I'd drop in a ProTools board, and hang a 24/96 or 24/192 interface off of it. The analog audio would then all live inside a nice shielded box with a good power supply (computer power supplies aren't real clean), and I can hang outboard gear off of that box.
Tubes are great for warmth and all, but there are much better places to put it. Like off the motherboard and in a separate shielded case. If they're serious about making their motherboards better for the audiophile, at least put a S/PDIF or ADAT out on the thing...
I am a guitarist, and if you want the prototypical guitar distortion that comes to mind, a tube preamp (at the very least) coupled with a tube amp is the ticket. Why tubes, you say? Well you are CREATING a sound, not recreating one. The original guitarists were actually trying to recreate a a certain sound, and when transistor amps strted becoming more widespread, they found that the new "superior" gear didn't give them that sound they had gotten used to. In fact, it sounded "bad". Now, I am also an audio engineer, and the first rule of engineering is "any sound is usable". That's not to say that transitor amps for guitar work are unusable. As a guitarist, you go with what you like, and if a transistor amp is it, then so be it. But like I said, that prototypical heavy guitar sound (and even clean and slightly dirty) is best created with tube equipment. Decades of attempts with transistor gear have proven this. To those who are not guitarists, it seems backwards, but you have to keep in mind, sound creation is the goal here. The "inferiority" of tubes actually produces a pleasing result in this particular area.
that brought us the 'che che' motherboard - not surprised.
search google for it and see for yourself! aopen's site is virtually dead, and i don't want the blood on my hands for direct-linking some reviewer
To recap what's said a bit further down, a normal computer power supply could not put out the voltage needed to even warm up such a tube (do you really want to wait an hour for your audio to get up to speed? Consumers are impatient; they want everything NOW, which is why they have big capacitors in TV sets for this so-called instant-on that we take for granted.)
:)
As someone who's worked in music stores for years, and with computers even longer, i can say with some authority that a small onboard tube of the kind shown here (looks like a 12AX7) would be useless for output; you see this kind of thing more often in tube preamps for input, so it doesn't seem logical. others have noted the RF interference, and the fact that a *single* tube would only result in mono audio - a one-tube solution would be more suitable for an AM radio or a guitar distortion unit. I would point out the sheer size of the component (about 3 inches tall) and the fact that it gets as hot as a light bulb as factors that would mean *something* in the computer would start melting (even presuming the use of ceramic sockets) - it'll certainly put a damper on your overclocking.
When it comes to audio and computers, the best solutions are high-end external A/D/A converters- the kind that support multiple sample rate options (the higher the better). If you want tube "warmth," you're not going to get it from one measly, underpowered preamp tube; you'll need a good tube *power amplifier* - not for loudness, but to provide more headroom before distortion sets in. These are about the size of 4U rack units and start at $3000 a pop....check www.audiogon.com for some listings
More useful would be native support for super-high audio resolution formats like SACD; with over 100KHz frequency range it eliminates a lot of the audio artifacts present in 44.1KHz (current CD) audio, reproducing transient highs with exceptional fidelity, bringing back a lot of the "air" missing from consumer digital recordings. That and multi-channel ADAT Lightpipe i/o.....
Must be the Microsoft .NET Vacu-tron XP web server!
First of all you are dead wrong. 16,000 volts? Maybe a CRT or large neon sign. Ever look at the specs for small signal tubes like the one pictured? Look for yourself if you don't believe me:
1 2a x7.htms /6dj8.ht m
http://www.audio.com.hk/technique/vintage/html/
http://www.mclink.it/com/audiomatica/tube
Max plate voltage 130, idiot.
A flyback transformer in a tv generates around 30kv and is the size of a small orange. Hardly huge. It would be trivial to run 12vcd into an inverter and get 130 at 10ma which is more than enough.
"...wondering about the ability of a switched psu to properly drive a tube amplification stage..."
Five volts will make the filament glow nicely. That's all it will take to convince the tube enthusiasts that the sound is better. No need for the tube to actually do anything.
To be somewhat less sarcastic, a small switcher could supply 100 volts or so for the plate, or they could use one of the 12 volt tubes that were developed for car radios.
Warning: this article may contain humor, sarcasm, parody, and perhaps even irony. Read at your own risk.
I love stereo's, I used to be into car stereo's but now im more into home theater stuff. I enjoy a good system just as much as the next person. My computer right now is hooked up to a sony str-de825 receiver, paradigm phantom speakers, and a velodyne 12/15 sub. It thumps pretty good, and I can still hook my reciever up to my computer using an optical cable, but I need a pretty long one and they are expensive.
I tried looking at this motherboard to see how it all works, but it doesn't mention much. Does it just use headphone jacks for the speakers, or does it have some way of accepting speaker cable? They say the motherboard is about 215 bucks, without the tube amp it would probably be about 150 bucks im guessing, so its a cheaper way of getting sound out of your pc vs. the external reciever/amp route. Here is a quote from their site:
AOpen's hybrid AX4B-533Tube unquestionably is targeted to a very exclusive niche market - passionate audiophiles and extreme gamers who are interested in building their own ultimate entertaining PCs
Id say that most passionate audiophiles also have enough money to buy equipment that would satisfy a passionate audiophile. So, that is a 'very' exclusive market, broke passionate audiophiles. The same goes for extreme gamers who want to build an ultimate entertaining pc (whatever that is supposed to mean. To me this includes a real home theater system =)
Ah well, its something new, shouldn't knock it, its just not for me I don't think. Anyone here have the chance to see one of these in action?
This extra add-on will increase the cost of the motherboard. But won't give you better sound!
The motherboard is full of electromagnetic noise and certainly won't benefit from the extra heat nor hazardus voltages.
Anyone serious about GOOD sound wants to keep those thoings OUT of the computer box or any digital circuits. That's usually translates to soundcard with S/P-dif or AES/EBU to a external A/D and ampfiler.
I'm a real live electrical engineer with a degree and everything. And, I listen to lots of music, mostly classical. And I have a pretty good ear -- I can often accurately identify the conductor when listening to a piece. Here goes: Properly designed transistor amps produce distortion that is below the threshold of audibility (0.1% THD). This is really easy to accomplish -- even $200 receivers routinely do it. Tubes produce very audible distortion, and they clip softly. I'm sure that it would be pretty easy to design a circuit to reproduce this distortion and the soft clipping for the fine folks who enjoy it.
I noticed right away that it didn't say it had tube output, it said it supports vacuum tube audio output. I imagine any tube on the device is there more for effect than anything else. The most important part would be the filter capacitors but I still wouldn't use this with anything other than the crap Creative puts out as amplifiers and speakers.
Chris Kuivenhoven is a thief, beware
As other /.'ers have pointed out, this MUST be a joke. A single vacuum tube in an amplifier doesn't serve any purpose but as a heater (or maybe just amplifies the center channel??)
I could imagine using a few (maybe fake) vacuum tubes in a case mod, that would be very cool. Or maybe build the power supply with tubes?? Has anyone tried that?
Oh well. I wouldn't mind having a nice tube amp OUTSIDE the computer for listening to MP3s .. it might fend off the digital noise of those 128k encoded MP3s.
What I really need to do is replace the 21-inch vacuum tube I stare into all day with a nice flat-panel model...
A Very nicely done joke though :)
:P
Notice, the only working link on the whole page is the the AOpen museum?
hmm... *cough* *cough* free advertising to the slashdot community, and even adbuster wont filter it
~ERTW.
Huh? They're all harmonics. Tube and certain kinds of FET (field effect transistor) based amps have a "soft limiting", so when they get close to clipping, they tend to generate even harmonics. Three of the first four even harmonics are exactly 1, 2, and 4 octaves away (2nd, 4th, and 8th harmonics), and so this form of distortion tends to be more melodic and pleasant. The 6th, 10th and so on aren't so melodic, but since the amplitude of the harmonics drops as you go to higher harmonics, you're ok.
BJT (bipolar junction transistor) based amps (and other types of solid state amps) tend to clip rather hard. No soft-limiting, they stop right at the rails. This clipping action creates a boatload of odd harmonics. These harmonics are fairly dissonant, giving the harsh sound most people complain about.
But they're all harmonics.
--JoeProgram Intellivision!
Maybe the admin can just telnet in over a wireless connection and fix the problem!
Windows is so cool!
Napster-to-go says "Fill and refill your compatible MP3 player", which is a lie. It's not MP3. It's WMA with DRM.
There is somehting that everyone is leaving out of this, most of the tubes that are in use are used primarily for good distortion - note: DISTORTION
I don't know why they are putting it in for audio, most people I know prefer to listen to stuff the way it was intended, not mushed up garbage disposal sounds. The sound is not richer at all, more like the same with multible reproductions of the same sound within itself.
In addition to this, tubes put off a tremendous amount of heat, and must be replaced rather often. Think again if you want to say that tubes are an innovative idea in a PC.
C makes it easy to shoot yourself in the foot; C++ makes it harder, but when you do, it blows away your whole leg
you're going to pay extra cash to have unreliable components (although tubes do sound much cooler....) put into a system that won't really allow for easy replacement so that you can listen to lossily compressed music (mp3s) .... . ... where do I sign up?? : )
Oh god, that woman is John Romero!
The most common argument the tube lovers trot out is that the best guitar amps use them. They seem to forget that when you are listening to music, you want something that accurately reproduces the sound on your source, you don't want something that changes the source.
"Audiophiles", flame away.
"It's not a war on drugs, it's a war on personal freedom. Keep that in mind at all times." Bill Hicks
How exactly is a *VACUUM* supposed to conduct heat??
Anybody who would even be remotely interested in tube amps would use a digital out from the PC, and then into a preamp or tube amp to get away from the electrical noise going on inside a PC case.
.
Me fail English? That's unpossible!
Why don't you guys just fix this damn page widening? Seriously, how hard could it be...
didn't take their "irony pills" this morning.
KFG
There is some info on [H]ard|OCP showing what apears to be a functional board at Coputex right now.
http://www.hardocp.com/article.html?art=MzAy
My old sig was REALLY stoopid.
How? you ask?
Easy. they state they have a switched mode power supply on board.
for those that dont know, you can step up that meager 12 volts to 5,000 volts if you wanted.
also, they state that it is a DUAL TRIODE tube.
this may very well NOT be a joke. it can be done. issues I have with this setup include noise, heat, and if the tube is socketted.. or available if it dies down the road. todays power supplies are better filtered than the supplies of yesterday, and im sure that the tube is better made, as well.
I may want one just for the hell of it, you have to admit... its pretty damned neat
Do you mean the devils? 'Cause there ain't no BSD trolls
ps cyb0rg m0nkey is my father
Not that this is by any means acceptible, but at least they are trying!
[quoting your link]
To address this weakness, Microsoft modified the Telnet implementation that the company includes in Win2K. Win2K's Telnet server can handle not only clear-text authentication but also NT LAN Manager (NTLM) authentication. NTLM encrypts usernames and passwords as they cross the network so that they can't be discovered.
However, there's a catch. To use NTLM to authenticate to the Telnet server, you must have a Telnet client that supports NTLM. The only client that supports NTLM authentication is Microsoft's Telnet client. So, if you intend to telnet into your systems only from Win2K's Telnet client, you can secure your Telnet service by restricting it to support only NTLM authentication. If you plan to accept Telnet sessions from clients that don't support NTLM authentication, you'll need to step down your security
MARIJUANA, SHROOMS, X: ONLINE?! - E
Really, what kind of sound card do you have? If you are using your computer for high-end audio production or music composition and are talking about truly high-end sound cards, that statement has some merit, no commercial AC 97 codec can probably produce what you would consider "good sound".
Presuming this is not the case, its probable, unless you have in fact a very obsolete or low-quality sound card, that it in fact uses an AC 97 codec similar to those used by many onboard sound interfaces. AC 97 is just a generic standard defining an interface between the sound codec (which actually produces the sound) and the controller (which attaches it to the bus, and provides DSP and synthesis functionality is some cases). Even expensive consumer sound cards like the Creative ones and the Hercules Game Theater use codecs which are AC 97 compatible. Most of the criticism of motherboard audio either has to do with the lack of features (which given that even expensive consumer sound cards don't do hardware MIDI synthesis anymore, isn't terribly relevant except for video game players) or the poor sound quality (which doesn't have to do with the AC 97 standard per se, but low quality of individual codecs and poor electrical design. None of these things are universals, I have a notebook which uses the AC 97 codec interface of its motherboard chipset, but a Crystal codec (identical to the one used by most of the CS4630 cards like the Santa Cruz, Game Theater, etc.), and produces very nice output.
"(Man) tries to live his own life as if he were telling a story. But you have to choose: live or tell." --Sartre
What is AOpen thinking? I have a few comments...
First. The audiophile market is a small and
discriminating bunch.
Second. If they intended to capture a
semi-professional audio recording market... they
would have been better off teaming up with
Apogee or Digidesign for a high quality D/A - A/D
A poster mentioned odd order harmonics causing a
"harsh" tonality; more accurately, the odd order
harmonics cause ear fatigue. An instrument that
produces odd order harmonics is a clarinet.
Don't mod me down because I post anonymously...
I rather like my privacy.
Actualy what is funny is that a CD is basicaly one long grove like a vinyl record.
Instead of the traditional CD-ROM, you have a vynil LP player, a cassette players instead of a disk drive and a round tube black & white zenith TV as the monitor. The keyboard is clickety clackety and mechanic, with round keys.
And the commercial is something like:
"Easy to Use, easy as Hell"
:)
You can condition the signal before it gets amplified. And you can do it with one tube. Whether this has any real effect after amplification is in doubt. I was eyeballing the picture for a minute and it ceratinly look legitimate. Hell, it may be stupid but I bet they sell as many as they make.
In their never-ending quest to turn back the clock, the RIAA has announced their latest tool to fight music piracy on the high seas and in your home - vacuum tube based soundcards. Not happy with preventing digital SACD and DVD-Audio playback on consumer stereo equipment much less consumer PCs, the RIAA is now forcing all motherboard manufacturers to support only the oldest functioning technology for audio playback known to man.
Hillary Rosen was quoted as saying this hardware program will finally end the Napster menace once and for all.
When information is power, privacy is freedom.
They radiate heat.
You've clearly never seen a vacuum tube device in operation.
There should be a moratorium on the use of the apostrophe.
Max V.
NeXTMail/MIME Mail welcome
Note, too, that the amplifier's final section is on the opposite side of the board from where the ATX audio connectors are. I'm no analog guru, but I'd bet dollars to donuts (mmm... donuts) that those traces running right under the PCI slots will pick up a ton of noise on the way. Besides, with a P4 CPU, you can emulate the tube's distortion in software.
Save the money and buy a good sound card with a high SNR (Turtle Beach Santa Cruz (plug,plug))
It goes without saying that tube-favoring audiophiles will use external devices for playing music. However, the tube amp is still be desireable for system beep tones.
Nuvistors I picked up on eBay!
r .h tm
:)
http://digilander.iol.it/paeng/what_the_nuvisto
It would be cool if someone put Nuvistors on a mobo. I'll let you have the tubes, but I'll sell you the sockets...
This is just too strange, and I have to suspect that it's a joke.
But I should point out that not only are tubes used in guitar amps (like the 2 12AX7s and 4 6L6s in my '61 black-face Showman), they are also used in some of the big-buck microphone preamps.
If you buy a $5,000 austrian or german condenser mic, it's like to have a tube *inside* it too.
There must be a reason for that.
at HardOCP
It bugs me a little bit that I have to sift through the comments to find out the existing, deterministic answer to a single question the article asks. From power req to heat generated, it looks like almost a unanimous "NO". The answer should be updated to reflect it.
Often wrong but never in doubt.
I am Jack9.
Everyone knows me.
Now, I was almost ready to buy one of these, GloFET and all, but there's no Firewire. And since that lovely firebottle takes so much room, there are only 3 PCI slots... One for FW, One for the HD tuner, One for Gigabit, One for SCSI... oops, no more slots.
On the flip side, I've never been much for case windows...but this board NEEDS a window!
-Z
You have violated Robot's Rules of Order and will be asked to leave the future immediately.
You're thinking of Lee De Forest who was the inventor of the audion tube, the tube equivalent of the transistor. De Forest is also one of the most fascinating men of the 20th century, one of the last great lone inventors whose invention spurred development of everything from the long distance phone network to the first digital computers.
If you ever get a chance I highly recommend reading Tom Lewis' book Empire of the Air which profiles the three men probably most resposible for the modern age of communication: Lee De Forest, Edwin Howard Armstrong and David Sarnoff. IIRC, Ken Burns also did a documentary based on the book for PBS. These are truly three of the most interesting, and in many ways, most tragic men whom have ever lived.
It looks like there is one hell of a capacitor next to the tube. (as big as the northbridge!!) It could be a 300+ volt cap. I have seen higher voltages in a smaller cap before.
Still, like everyone else is saying, there is no point in *one* tube. But who uses onboard audio anyway?
The reason tube based amps still have a following is because many people belive that tube based systems have more "punch" then digital based amp's meaning the amp can deliever more raw power when a sudden burst of vloume is required by the amplifier. Which is all good, but we are not talking about home audio we are talking about PC audio where the real power is produced from the Speakers internal amp/subwoofer . It is completly pointless to integrate a tube based amp on the mb unless Aopen plans to be driving the speakers themselves with this amp which I find highly unlicky with a stadard ATX power suppy
1) Cooling - You don't cool tubes, they like heat. That's why they're called thermionic devices. It would be nice to see a metal sleeve on the tube to act as a sheild against all the EMI from the motherboard though.
2)Availability of replacements - Check the little ads in the back of any audiophile type magazine and you'll find plenty of tube suppliers. Or you could just go to the local electronics store and order a new tube. I've restored plenty of tube-based devices and never waited longer than a week for a tube.
Putting moderation advice in your
NTLM will help prevent your initial login credentials from being sniffed easily. But after that, everything is still in plaintext! And Windows has pretty bad packet sequencing (nmap usually says something along the lines of "trivial joke"), making insertion of data, or outright hijacking, easier.
Napster-to-go says "Fill and refill your compatible MP3 player", which is a lie. It's not MP3. It's WMA with DRM.
The only tube that needs 16,000 volts is a cathode ray tube (CRT, aka. picture tube, like in a TV or monitor). Anyway, it's easy to generate the 50-100v needed for the tube with a small dc-dc inverter.
The thing I don't get is why is there only one tube? Is it a mono amplifier? Are there two tubes in the one tube casing for stereo?
- Eric, InvisibleRobot.com
slashbloat?
VACUUM tubes? isn't that the new name for Rambus memory that sucks even more?
--- Metamoderating abusive downgraders since my 300th post.
There is a 24V potential available on the motherboard between the +12V and -12V supplies (if PC's still have the -12V) but I don't think 24V is enough to do anything. A small inverter or charge pump along the lines of how the MAX232 works on the board would do the job too.
There are also dual triode tubes that would take care of the stereo issue.
That being said, I think this whole thing is a joke. If this were really an audiophile motherboard there would be a lot of metal shielding around the audio section, and the picture wouldn't look like a Fark photoshop.
Putting moderation advice in your
You have to remember guys, this is a LINE level valve amp....NOT a power amp. I have an ART DI/O(thing is about the size of a paperback book) that has a tube which runs off a meager 48V for the B+. The tube runs cool to the touch.
So, making this tube circuit 1) work 2) stay cool 3) physically fit, is NOT an issue.
This idea came up in conversation a few years ago. However it involved a tube sound card (remember those) and not the mother board. Ulimately you could put the tubes outside the case.
...
seems like a better idea to me
How about you ?
Tube distortion is mostly even order harmonics. Solid state distortion is both even and odd order harmonics. Also tubes are naturally "voltage amps", transistors are naturally "current amps". Tube amps also have slewing rates that are orders of magnitude better than (bipolar) transistor amps.
Why would they go to so much trouble as to put tubes on a motherboard for quality audio output then use the super crappy Realtek ALC650 AC'97 CODEC. Maybe their engineers know something I dont, but that was a big dissapointement when I saw it.
Tis better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt --Abraham Lincoln
It seems that their server is slashdotted, perhaps it too is built using tube technology.
From what I distantly recall of my microelectrons course, your statement is true for BJTs (bipolar junction transistors) but not for FETs. FETs (field effect transistors) are very similar to tubes in their characteristics. Both employ an electric field to control the flow of electrons. In the case of the tube, it's from the cathode to the anode. In the case of the FET, it's from gate to drain.
--JoeProgram Intellivision!
(Sitting around one day)
Bean counter: "You know, people are only willing to pay about $6 for a soundcard. How can we get back to the good old days when people spent great gobs of money replacing high-priced disposable components?
Engineer: Let's stick a tube in there. Everyone likes the nice fuzzy sound that comes from tubes. Hell, that's why "Turbo Bass" and equalizers are so popular.
Bean Counter: Sounds good, as long as we get the most outlandish design, so they can't just get parts or repairs from anywhere. We want them to come back to us.
Engineer: Got it!
Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
I've seen a lot of posts withe the same thought.
You don't want to cool down a vacuum tube, heat is essential to them working, hence the heating filament inside them. Its also why tubes have to warm-up before they are at their best.
This should be exactly the next challenge many overclockers are looking for. How do you keep one component hot, but everything else cool, without the board dying from thermal/expansion stress?
Have a go boys, maybe you can teach the audiophiles a lesson or two, considering the progress so far in just a few years on computer cooling.
> Why?
For the same reason some manufactures one-uped their competiors with volume controls from 0 to 11.
> Could this give me the high quality audio I'm looking for?
If you're looking for hi-fi (id est true to the source) sound reproduction, than no, it can't. High quality audio can not be reproduced in electrically noisy environments such as those found inside a PC case. If high quality audio were desired, one would remove all analog sound components from the computer. Obviously this would require using an external amp. (Have you ever considered why even plasitc cases have metal on the inside? Does the term "EMI shield" ring a bell?)
It could be that you are looking for the "warm" sound delivered by tube amps. In this case a circuit could be designed to reproduce this [...] soft clipping.
It can therefore be concluded that this is a "great gimmick to sell to idiots."
If you want real quality sound, you had better go out and get something that is made for it. This is the solution that I purchased, and it rocks. (I do not work for them, and my needs/wants may differ from yours, so YMMV.) Their soundcard is completely shielded, and silent. I love it.
If you want "tube" warmth, go and get a real tube pre and/or amp. Tubes make a big difference, but not here.
Might be a little offtopic but IIRC, didnt some people make Commodore 64 programs that would actually cause the 1541 disk drive to make music by scratching the disk and banging the heads? or am i smoking crack?
Join the TWIT army now!
http://www.lammindustries.com/products/m2descr.htm l
You don't want to know the cost, it will make your tummy hurt!
As an owner of a tube headphone amplifier
You misspelled "sucker." Hope this helps, have a nice day.
News for Nerds. Stuff that Matters? Like hell.
Head over to Head-Fi.org where all they talk about is headphone hi-fi audio stuff. (no, they don't sell them, but at least you can find out about real headphone hi-fi)
I mean, if you're that concerned about having quality analog audio output, you're not going to use the sound card integrated into that motherboard -- you'll just get way too much interference.
I have a Fender CyberTwin guitar amplifer on the way.
The only two amps on the market combining a hybrid analog/tube/DSP design are Fender Cyber-Series and VOX Valvetronix. We can only hope someone produces a combination of Fenders preamp and interface with the VOX Valvetronix tube power amp design for the ultimate hybrid amplifier.
This is truely the future of high-end audio manufacturing.
I own an Antique Sound Labs MG-SI15DT stereo tube amp (2x KT88 and 2x 12AX7).
When I got it from a friend it had some nice Svetlana KT88 tubes which had a pretty hazy blue glow inside. So pretty.
Well... I was cleaning off stuff in my room one day. And I was using windex. I guess I didnt wait too long before I had switched off my amp before I wiped stuff down because I heard a *crack*.
Anyone ever set down a hot flask on a cold counter in science class?
Well, I turned on my amp and a lighting storm was going off inside that tube! And it made a horrible noise. Freaky thing was my PC was turned on about 10 feet away and when I turned on my amp my computer started beeping nonstop and it froze up until I turned off my amp again.
Some sort of freaky radiation.
Anyway, with a crack in the glass your vacuum tube ceases to be a vacuum tube.
I reccomend against water-cooling very strongly.
I am a real live audiophile with a taste twards analog reproduction/recording. Looking at the board a few questions come to mind.
No self respecting audiophile (is this an oxymoron?) would buy a tube based system to reproduce op-amp created sound. And while the sources for sound may have been carefully recorded with state of the art analog equipment, it is a certainty that they were not stored in this fashion.
Next is the question of power. I am certain that that PC power supply is adequate for reproducing MP3's on soundblaster cards. However, again, tubes are usually accompanied by well engineered power supplies with very large transformers. This equipment is absent from the motherboard.
Isolation of signals is vital in tube gear. Shielding a tube from outside electrical signals is difficult. Higher frequency signals are more difficult to shield from in general due to the fact that they implicitly are higher energy. Most audiophile grade tubes are designed to run in systems that produce very lower power, lower frequency signals, the exact opposite is found on a computer.
If this PC is not a hoax, which it most likely is, then it appears to be a very ill-concieved product which I doubt will find a niche.
Here is a close up picture of the tube as taken @ Computex
0 MT M4MmFRVDh6SHlEY0xfMV8xNV9sLmpwZw==
http://www.hardocp.com/image.html?image=MTAyMzE
Being called a dork on Slashdot must be like being called the retard in special ed.
what is even funnier is that cds are digital and lps are analog
Analog computing DOES have a lot of uses, but it needs vacuum tubes about as much as bicycles need wood.
These (LM741) do the job in an all-solid state way (you can, of course, use any op-amp you desire). Connect them with 4066's and you have your reprogrammable analog computer. Better yet, this can be built on an IC, and programmed just like an FPGA. In fact, Lattice and a few others make chips just like this.
Analog computers are terrific for mathematic problems where an exact numerical answer is not as important as getting a good answer quickly. It really is too bad that they've fallen out of favor as of late.
Hardware, software, and blinking lights!
I've been bitten by the plate supply on a number of tube devices, including an HF transmitter. It's no fun! In fact, the last one to get me literally bounced me across the room and left a burn on my arm.
I would be concerned about the "Joe Consumer" level of do-it-yourself folks, many of whom have probably never even HEARD of vacuum tubes, who misplace a screw or washer or something and, in doing so, manage to short the plate supply (which has got to be up around 300 VDC) to ground or to one of the low-voltage DC lines. I hope AOpen has got some enormous warning labels pasted all over this thing.
Another thing to consider, along those lines. How many of us have accidentally dropped a screw, or similar metallic object, into a computer while it's being worked on under power? If you're really lucky, the screw won't bridge anything when it falls, AND you'll see where it lands. If you're not so lucky, well...
I think anyone who wants to build a system using one of these boards should be required to take at least a couple of hours training on basic electronics safety, whether self-taught or in a class. Lord knows nobody reads manuals any more, so putting nine kinds of bright red 'CAUTION!' flag in the book isn't going to do any good at all.
On a final note: I, like others who have posted already, just don't see the point of doing something like this. If you're enough of an audiophile to be a fan of Truly Great Sound, you're not going to use a PC to get it. You're going to run out and get a nice old Carver (or similar) tube-based amp from wherever one gets such things these days, and hitch it up to a real hi-fi system.
Don't even get me started on running tube amps on switch-mode power supplies. The output filtering on said supply would have to be pretty amazing to keep the RF hash that any switcher generates out of the speakers.
Bruce Lane, KC7GR,
Blue Feather Technologies
The only time i got to listen to a tube amp was at the ECE open house day at my uni.
It was playing from a cd out to some nice headphones. The thing is it had this annonying quite loud white noise. I didn't find it impressive at all.
now with all preferences to earthy clipping or steeley quantizing and unfounded fears of vaccuum tubes aside;I and I the flyneye,who not only owns
tube audio sources,but have also built them from parts,can tell you certainly in this self referencial run on sentence,that only one thing is truely horribly wrong with this board,"vaccuum tubes are more f*&king heat than i care to introduce into a cramped space with any expen$ive sensitive electronics that i am trying desperatly to cool for purposes of longevity and performance".'smuch too hot folks
(try saying all that in one breath like jack webb on dragnet!)
*Repent!Quit Your Job!Slack Off!The World Ends Tomorrow and You May Die!
Hey-
Like IC's, there are usually more than one device in a single package with tubes. We're probably looking at a dual triode. Could (should) be quad triode, but I seriously doubt it.
It's never gonna sound much better than the D/A, which is probably a runofthemill 44.1k by 16bit job, which just isn't all that great, especially with only one triode per channel instead of two.
SO it's a sales gimmick. But, it's a DAMN GOOD ONE and I'd like to see more of this and I think it will succeed as it should!
More crap like this, please! Give me swing meters and magic-eyes and nixies! Bring it on!
=Rich
Please tell me you aren't.
Shut up already, nobody cares.
slashdot!=valid HTML
yes, but you'd only want to run it on someone elses' 1541. someone you don't like that is.
I can see it now:
Soundblaster Fried! X-audiophile
or a new port instead of AGP, you can have AAP (Accellerated Audio Port) or a sound card that uses the AGP Port for audio while video is relegated to the PCI bus. I think ATI might like this last option since they still make PCI versions of their cards while Nvidia is exclusively AGP.
Speaking of which.. Can the AGP port be used for applications other than video? Could a 10 gigabit NIC use the AGP bus? 16 channel input 144khz audio A/D converter card? What other applications could use a 2034Mb/s 8x AGP bus where 64 bit 66mhz PCI's 533Mb/s and PCI-X's 1024Mb/s fails?
If voting were effective, it would be illegal by now.
CDR Sound Review tells us how various brands of CDRs stack up for different types of music:
"Maxell 700 MB silver top for more detailed highs, Maxell Music gold for a fatter, more solid mid-to-bottom."
Forgive me for a momentary metal denseness.
/. audience wouldn't be aware of just what a Macintosh really IS and that if there were no such thing as a Macintosh computer I *still* would have made my orginal post, which would have still made sense.
You are laboring under the misaprehension that I'm a punk kid who just posted a mindless anti Apple computer crack intending to imply that a Machintosh isn't a "real" computer.
Far from it, if I had been I couldn't have posted what I did in the manner that I did.
You see, I neglected to take into account that many of the more "youthful" of the
Macintosh, as it happens, was a, ( some would say THE), premier manufacturer of tube amplifiers for commercial and audiophile customers, as much a household word in their day as Teac is now.
My orginal post was intended as a somewhat wry and yes, ironic, comment on the convergence of "media devices," hightened somewhat by the fact that there are audiophile tube amplifiers AND sophisticated home computers named Macintosh.
In my own home the "stereo" and "TV" sit in the corners acting mostly as dustcollectors, as I use my "computer" for nearly everything, including as a "radio" and "tape deck."
*Ironicly* I'm posting using Windows right now because my Mac isn't connected to the network at the moment and my Linux X-server has crashed and I'm not in the mood to reconfigure everything to make one post using Lynx.
So, anyway, if I'm guilty of anything it's of being too opaque in my reference and too dense to realize it.
Hell, as implied above I *use* a Mac, ( and used to use a Mac).
KFG
When the audio is working ... it'll make the computer look like it's thinking ... (lightbulb glowing)
Karma? Karma? I don't need no stinkin' karma.
It's probably a joke. And will be a bigger one if anyone buys into it.
As far as I know, most music/sound stored on a PC is digital not analog.
So if you are an audiophile and somehow still want to pay extra to have better stuff coming out of your computer just use digital sound outputs (some soundcards have these) and use external DACs of your choice. And then the output from those DACs can go to whatever amplifier/preamp you like - tube, transistor etc.
As for the DVD/CDROM drive's analog sound output - you don't want to use that - the drive probably has a cheap DAC (might be ok for people like me, but I'm sure those with golden ears won't be satisfied). So rip your CDs a few times to get as correct data as you can get, and use that. If after a few rips the data is still inconclusive (or conclusively bad), get a new CD.
Cheerio,
Link.
It seems that their server is slashdotted, perhaps it too is built using tube technology.
... working on the tube technology, immediately."
JB: "Get the scientists
KG: "Tube technology..."
"And like that
Nobody addresses the fact that tubes are usually used for power amplifiers, not preamplifiers. Why would anyone use a power amplifier inside a PC? A good power amplifier weighs at least 4kg and doesn't fit into a PC case.
I consider myself one of those nerds to which a mobo with tube amp is stuff that matters and the related discusion is +5 informative... But how come everyone is arguing wheiter or not the product manager at aopen had a good right idea depending on wheiter tube amps are indeed better (my opinion, if its actually debatable then they are not worth their price). This discusion goes as deep as this part by mesocyclone(I am sure someone double checked those numers even before having breakfast, am I right ?)
/. undebated like: ,yes every intel chipset currently in production works nice
This leaves the obious questions one trusts to find on
- A board aimed at the hardware/audio "maniac" rather average overclocker for the pentium iv????(powerpc,athlon or crusoe would be my choice)
- Does it run linux??
- Imagene a beowulf of these!
I really wanted to take your post seriously, that is until I read the word "audiophiles". Audiophiles, i.e. morons who buy pure silver speaker cables and special sound-improving lotions to bathe their CDs in (I'm not kidding) at horrendous prices can't possibly be taken seriously.
Despite being completly off-topic (and also not being an audiophile) your description of Audiophiles would sit right next to my description of many Gaming enthusiasts / overclocker, who would spend $700 on a video card to give an extra 20fps (total of 150fps) on their 80hz monitor. Or even better someone who would spend even more on a liquid cooled case in order to overclock a cpu to give a 3% real performance increase!
Of course im not implying you are such a person, just that in every 'hobby' there are such extremes that people will go to for probably not a lot of good reasons! :)
As a real (yes I went to recording engineering school) audio engineer working in the industry, I think this is a tremendous idea. Tubes have a wonderful warm sound to take the harsh edge of digital recordings. I haven't destroyed my ears listening to music too loudly and I'm just shy of 19khz in both ears and I'm 36. I can hear the difference between tube and transistor amps. I'll pickup a couple in my studio for listening to mixdowns for my clients, as sometimes musicians can be the real music snobs.
Kudo's to aopen
"... while simultaneous wondering about the ability of a switched psu to properly drive a tube amplification stage cleanly."
This shows ignorance of electronics. (No problem, everyone is ignorant of something.) If "psu" means "power supply unit", there is no problem. Switched power supplies output constant DC that is indistinguishable from the DC from transformer-rectifier-capacitor supplies, if both are regulated equally well.
The old style supplies sometimes had huge capacitors that would provide energy for peaks in the output of power amplifiers. Switched power supplies could use huge capacitors for the same purpose, but in practice it is easier just to design the supply so it can provide all the power needed for the peaks.
its time we started to talk about jesus
Most people rip their CDs using Digital Audio Extraction tools (such as AudioGrabber or EAC) which does not touch any D/A converters. This software takes the digital information in a fashion close to reading a CD-ROM Data disc, and sorts it into a proper WAV file which is then repurposed by the audio encoder of choice. The only time when the D/A converters on the drive is invoked is when they press play on their CD Playing application. Also note that from Windows 2000 onwards, the operating system will allow the user to play music digitally in the same manner as ripping an audio CD, bypassing the D/A converter on the drive and merely allowing the sound card to convert the signal or to send it out through a digital connector.
It all seems like a big joke to me.
It goes with 100 to 1 data compression and electronic super cooling.
There are people who like science, but don't particularly want to know anything about it.
who would spend $700 on a video card to give an extra 20fps (total of 150fps) on their 80hz monitor.
:) with the default config but in Dungeon Siege I get 10fps @ 1024x768x32.
Nice try but the fps plays an intrinsic part of the control system, it's proportional to the latency. At lower fps the machine cannot respond to mouse events as soon. So having a high FPS is a metric to how well the machine will respond overall.
Also, people use FPS in Quake3 as a guide. Okay one can say 'I got 3547' on 3dMark but Quake3 fps is something people can directly understand. Remember that play many games and not just Quake3. For instance I just got a GeForce4 ti4600. I get 220 fps in Quake3 (@1280x1024x32
I've never heard of anyone spending $700 for 20fps! (but that's not to say it's impossible)
As for liquid cooled, if I could be arsed/afford it I'd buy it and take a 3% performance *decrease* just to show it to people at LAN parties.
Don't be a player hater. The world would be a sadder place if people didn't play.
There are places where the networks are not touching,and there are places where they are-Boeing's Lori Gunter
SAN JOSE, CA, June 3, 2002 -- AOpen Inc. announced today that it is introducing the world's first vacuum tube motherboard, coinciding with Intel's announcement of the Pentium® 4 845E chipset. The new AX4B-533Tube Motherboard incorporates the novel, modern-day adoption of an idea that was spawned by the invention of the electric light bulb by Thomas A. Edison back in 1879 - the vacuum tube. In taking this bold step towards audio perfection, AOpen's hybrid AX4B-533Tube unquestionably is targeted to a very exclusive niche market - passionate audiophiles and extreme gamers who are interested in building their own ultimate entertaining PCs. The motherboard is also certain to appeal to retailers that desire to cater to these two eccentric groups with custom-built PCs, delivered with matching speaker systems and the latest CD and DVD playback devices.
Why The Vacuum Tube?
The first logical question anyone - analyst, journalist, technician or consumer - would likely ask, is . . . why? AOpen engineers admit that their original notion to add the unmistakable sound of tube output to a modern-day motherboard was initially a lark. "We were all together late one night, kicking around lots of crazy ideas when I proposed it would be really cool if we could combine the warmth and depth - tonal realism, if you will - of the sound produced by an audio tube, with one of our state-of the-art motherboards" says Al Peng, product manager at AOpen America Inc., an audiophile for more than 10 years. "Laughter turned into raves a few months later when we did our first lab demo of our unique hybrid creation. The reproduced sound was absolutely amazing.
It left everyone stunned. What we realized at that moment was how the limitations of typical audio output from a PC as we knew it, had come to an end - and what we were pioneering was a way to literally combine the best of two audio worlds - old and new."
The Watts and Volts of Combining Solid-State and Tube
Some skeptics may argue that even average solid-state amplification devices are often better than the best tube devices. However, in terms of tonality - that's where solid-state working alone falls short. Since the tube output stage of the AX4B-533Tube couples the two front digital stereo output channels with tube output, music lovers of all kinds will "feel" their singer, band or orchestra seemingly come alive, while gamers will find that sound-effects become far more convincing and "to your face". A brief look at what makes a tube work provides greater perspective to the overall concept of combining tube with solid-state.
There are four principal elements in a modern vacuum tube that work together to make it function. The Filament (heater), Cathode, Grid and Anode (or plate). The filament is connected with voltage to boils the cathode, causing the cathode to emit electrons that pass through the grid and hit the Anode. Through this electron flow, the tube amplifies a small (AC) alternating current signal into a larger AC voltage, thereby amplifying it. By controlling the grid voltage, the current flow can be regulated, and create the desired electronic characteristics, while amplifying the signal (source).
Tubes may date back to well over 100 years, but the AX4B-533Tube proves that even today, tubes shape the sound of many modern bands' characteristic styles. In fact, most electric guitar and bass amplifiers are tube-based. High-end professional audio equipment also relies on the tube as a preferred amplification device. Tubes are even found in digital-to-analog conversion equipment.
Some Technical Considerations
*
SWITCHING POWER One of the more daunting challenges for AOpen engineering team in developing the AX4B-533Tube was the process of powering the tube circuitry that requires high voltage of up to 300V from the power supply to properly operate the tube. By incorporating a switching mode power supply for the tube circuitry that can truly rival solid-state amplifiers, then employing A Maxim 668 DC-DC voltage converter to provide ample voltage for the tube to function under optimal conditions - correct audio playback is achieved. As a result, the AX4B-533Tube performs brilliantly.
*
TUBE CIRCUITRY After careful study of many classic pre-amp circuits, AOpen decided to employ a single dual-triode (one tube with two front stereo channels) as the main amplification device. In addition, by following a long path to achieve signal amplification, straightforward amplification is achieved without the use of numerous coupling devices that could add unwanted coloration to the sound of the playback output.
A separate input connector is also provided allowing users with existing sound card's output going through the tube amplification to achieve desire tube tonality. This design allows millions of users out there with their existing sound card to be working with AX4B-533Tube in tandem.
*
NOISE REDUCTION One of the inherent difficulties of utilizing tubes for audio output amplification has always been the dreadful by-product of noise. AOpen solved this problem flawlessly with a method of noise reduction called the Frequency Isolation Wall (FIW). The FIW is strategically placed at all regions throughout the motherboard that separates each operating frequency regions such as CPU, memory, AGP and PCI where the operating frequency ranging from 133MHz, 66MHz and 33MHz. Cross talk among each regions had been reduced greatly for overall system stability as well as minimize inherit noise that may go to tube amplification circuitry.
*
RELIABILITY A critical issue with any electronic device is reliability. When it comes to hybrid audio equipment, reliability plays an even greater role. The MTBF ratios for both the motherboard and the tube circuitry in the AX4B-533Tube are stellar, with minimum 50,000 MTBF hours on the motherboard, and 35,000 MTBF hours on the tube circuitry (Tube itself will have about 4,000 to 5,000 hours, depends on operating conditions)
*
COMPONENTS AND CONSTRUCTION To ensure accurate tonal quality for music playback and to fully enhance the gaming experience, AOpen engineers meticulously selected the finest components from the world's top-rated manufacturers in designing and building the AX4B-533Tube. In addition, the AX4B-533Tube is painstakingly and patiently assembled, piece-by-piece, then fully inspected and individually tested by AOpen technicians to ensure that each motherboard meets its desired peak performance levels without hesitation.
The AX4B-533Tube Motherboard comes with latest Intel 845E chipset design and features DDR SDRAM memory channels delivering 2.1 GB/s of memory bandwidth to the processor - maximizing the full performance of the Intel Pentium® 4 processor with 533Mhz FSB offers best overall performance and longevity. It comes with a 4X AGP slots; with new ICH4, the AX4B-533Tube supports 4 ports of USB 2.0 and Ultra ATA/100 interface. With Intel 845E chipset, AOpen's AX4B-533Tube provides a revolutionary fusion of old and new technology, producing unsurpassed PC audio output that takes full advantage of the Intel Pentium® 4 processor's capabilities.
Audio grade components are used throughout critical circuitry. By cooperating with Reliable Capacitors, high-end Rel MultiCap coupling capacitors were used. Cardas wires are also deployed strategically on the output to achieve faithful reproduction of music and sound effect. (Fred, We need to expand this portion a bit. Please visit www.capacitors.com and www.cardas.com for more information to emphasize the value we are providing to the gamers and music lovers. Thanks)
The AX4B-533Tube has an estimated street price of $215 USD and fully supports ACPI 1.0 and APM 1.2 specs; comes bundled with Norton Anti-Virus 2002 software; and features AOpen's standard three-year warranty. The AX4B-533Tube is available through all authorized AOpen channel partners. Detailed specifications and photos for website posting or publication are also available by request. More information on the AX4B-533Tube may also be found at: product spec.
About AOpen
AOpen Inc. is the world's largest total component solutions manufacturer and a member of a $10 billion technology group. Leveraging more than 25 years of technology
manufacturing experience and more than 1,000 Group patents, AOpen designs, develops and markets advanced PC motherboards, notebooks, optical drives, PC housings, peripherals, multimedia, telecommunications and networking solutions for resellers, system integrators and those who value reliability and performance.
Editor's Note: More information about AOpen, AOpen products, services, and business partners is available on the World Wide Web at: www.AOpen.com.
AOpen is a registered trademark of AOpen Inc. All other products, brand names or companies are trademarks or registered marks of their respective companies.
Sound cards need to have digital output, so that we can hook our computer into our THX-compliant monster system.
Seriously, though, an external DAC unifies the sound from your DVD, MD and PC.
Stop the brainwash
Nice thing to put on my guitar!!! :-p
HEAVY METAL!!!!!!!!!!!!
It's kinda cool that they're making such a strong pro-tube statement, but really: What a lame-ass idea! Regardless of which side of the argument you fall on, whether tubes are the way to go or not, it doesn't make any sense to have *any* analog audio sources inside an inherently em-noisy box. If you want high fidelity, (or you just wanna be able to crank it), you've gotta have digital output and perform the digital-to-analog conversion outside the box. That's what the pros and serious amateurs do. Forget stinkin' soundblatters! Digital io cards and standalone a-d-a converters are the only serious way to go. What you do with the sound after conversion to analog is up to you. I'm personally kinda fond of the sound of tube amps but that's besides the point. I don't want a couple inside my pc given the heat that those tubes generate. The last place I need more heat is inside my pc!
I had a program for the C64 called, "The 1541 Sings".
I would bang stuff around in the drive and produce a noice that sounded something like "Danny Boy".
Why 5 1/4 bays reminded you of that is beyond me, as these drives where the size of a shoe box.
Silence is Foo!
If you want good audio get a nice soundcard with a breakout box. Like the MAudio Delta series. There is Linux drivers for the thing as well (both OSS/pay-us and ALSA, I think the OSS stuff works better). All this tube nonsense.
Pedantic self proclaimed audiophiles LOVE crappy sound ! They love crappy vinyl ! They love stupid analog tube amplifiers ! If engineers were to develop the same mobo, but without the EMI issue and the fan noise, they would complain that the sound is Trop artificiel.
Yes it it true, even order harmonics sound rich and full, odd order harmonics sound dead and lifeless. Solid state devices will always produce shitty harmonics. Tubes are analog, and just like your ear, are what we hear best. Once again Slashdot folks are Blowing Goats(tm). Audio, audio and more audio. People that think they are getting good sound out of digital stuff, are deaf to certain frequencies. DEAF.
I think the point to be had here is that with gamers/overclockers you at least get a performance increase. Tube amps not only cost more, but add distortion to the sound, making them inferior by the definition of hi-fi.
As a game programmer, I look forward to the changes coming for DirectSound: CreateSnobbyAudiophileDirectSoundBuffer().
I noticed that if I load Doom onto my machine from different download sources, the creatures actually look different! And the flaming skulls just aren't as "crisp" if I save the distribution for more than a week.
There is so much friggin' voodoo science in the audio biz (both pro audio AND home audio) that it isn't funny. But it's such a metaphysical battle that those who try to use REAL science and common sense need not apply.
The NTLM authentication is susceptable to dictionary attacks like any other hash. But like you said... it prevents credentials from being sniffed easily
There was an advisory about a year ago where they found out that by tricking IE or Outlook into activating a telnet:// URL, they could have a Win2k system automatically send the hash of the userid and credentials for the current logged on user.
Patrick Doyle
I mod down every jackass who puts his moderation policy in his sig. Oh, wait a sec....
"I use my PC for everything, including sound that would even be pleasing to audiophiles who didn't know where it was coming from" (italics mine). That last bit is quite telling. If you have a friend who is an audiophile, do a few tests with him!
Audiophiles usually have good hearing, and they can tell the difference between the sound color produced by two different amps. Do a blind test with your audiophile friend and a couple of high end and mid-range amps/speakers, and ask him to give each a rating. At some point throw your computer into the mix and see what rating it gets. I got my speakers from a shop that works like this: they let you hear the speakers first and ask which ones you preferred, and only then did they start to talk prices. You'll find that the audiophile often will not pick out the most ridiculously priced equipment as "best".
Oh and don't get me started on cabling. Show me the person who can justify (or distinguish in a blind test), the $500 cinch leads to connect equipment, or the $150-a-meter loudspeaker cable, as opposed to a good $20 cinch lead and simple LS cable.
If construction was anything like programming, an incorrectly fitted lock would bring down the entire building...
you can easily power the plate with a dc-dc converter.
and tubes are more reliable than most people think, they will usually last a good five years, or even longer if handled very carefully and not power cycled everyday.
many people like the fuzzy sound of tubes, although they could just route the card through their favorite amp.
as for the problems i'm not sure an atx supply to have enough current to light the heater filament.
the heat from the tube could easily match the heat output of an athlon
i doubt the tube would survive a usps shipping
and more people wil make even more of those stupid window mods.
Because we all know that it couldn't be the developer's fault or anything like that. Blame Microsoft? No.. blame the developer first.
The amp company is "McIntosh", not "Macintosh".
I still use a 29 year old McIntosh.
Not to mention, lived on a planet heated by a star which is c. 92 million miles of near-vacuum away.
Save Maine's economy: write stuff down. All comments are exclusively my own, not my employer.
Imagine a Beowulf cluster of these badboys...
Look. For a guitar amp, I can see it.. the tube amp is as much part of the insturment as the guitar. It definately does mess with the sound.
How ever, as with many things that 'audiophiles' think, tube amps are NOT better than solid state at reproducing sound. Tubes mess with the sound. Yes, they sound good. But not as accurate as a good solid state amp.
Now, I'm not saying there aren't extremely high quality tube amps.. there are. But companies make these things so they can sell them at rediculous prices to audiophiles who mistakenly think tube amps are more accurate.
Guess what. The recording engineer who mastered the thing didn't use a tube amp.
Just us a tube based external amp?
Why put a tube in your case?
For those who think this is a joke, did you notice the big white things attached to the motherboard? Those are Hovalland cpacitors; very expensive (US$4 apiece vs US$0.10 for standard el-cheapo) audiophile caps designed to sound better than your average cap. (Yes, capacitors DO sound different)
I couldn't see the ratings from the picutres, but they're about the right size for coupling the output from a triode like the 6922 (Russian 6DJ8 nockoff). And I saw a third, but smaller, Hovalland that is probably a low value bypass cap for that 400V Japanese electrolytic pictured.
As far as I can see from the pictures, we have a pretty classic tube pre-amp circuit with top quality caps.
They will. Audiophiles buy gigantic cables for two reasons:
You have to understand, distortion isnt confined to the amplifiers. Speaker distortion works like this...
For the sake of simplicity, imagine a perfect sine wave. It goes as much up as it does down. Speakers do exactly the same thing as the wave, moving back and forth. Now, when you're doing this at any significant amplitude, theres issues of air pressure to take into account. You've got the forward push which creates a vacuum behind the speaker, and higher pressure in front of the speaker. Since the higher pressure in front usually disapates forward, you've really only gotta worry about the vacuum behind the speaker.
Now, moving on to the second half of the wave, that vacuum behind the speaker has air very quickly rushing to fill that space. As a result, on the back swing of the wave, you require a lot of power to fight against the incoming wave of air.
At about 160db, its phyically impossible to have sound without distortion (half the wave is flattened out!).
So yah.. 'gigantic cables' accually do make the speakers sound better. (If you like it loud.)
.
It's "Dobbs", not "Dob".
Remember--it ain't a prob if you've got Bob!
It really wouldn't be much of a problem to step up the voltage to 180v-300v. Obviously there wouldn't be a tremendous amount of current, but since this tube is designed to drive the output of a preamplifier, little current is required.
Also, most tube amps require output transformers, which is noticably absent from the photo.
There are scads of output transformerless (OTL) amps on the market. They're designed to drive low impedance loads. Even so, this is a preamplifer, so it will be driving a relatively high impedance, thus no output transformer is required.
Thirdly, there's only one tube! Presumably, if they are really after the audiophile market, it would at least be a stereo amplifier.
This is a dual triode tube, perfectly suited for stereo. As I recall, it would work great as a common-cathode amplifier.
Not to say anything about the noise problems present near high speed digital circuits.
That's where I'd be concerned. I think that this is really nothing more than a gimmick. I suppose they can say that it's aimed at audiophiles, but in reality I think that its true market will be for the case modding crowd to take advantage of the "gee whiz" factor.
This is bunk.
Never underestimate the power of a marketing department.
-h-
...the users will attach their 2-watt, 3-inch no-name-brand computer speakers?
Saw it in the frontpage of NTCW, which is a retailer in the Vancouver area. Looks like it's more solid than it first appeared...
The point is that it has a tube on it so they can jack up the price and sell it to wannabe audiophiles for lots of greenbacks.
As an owner of a tube headphone amplifier I applaud AOpen's move to accomodate the high-end audio enthusiast
Hooray!! You're amplifying crappy on-board audio!! But who cares, it's a TUBE AMP.
More Tubes!
Coal Fired & Steam Powered!
Comes in 330lb "Floor Standing Console" case, with beautiful oak finish and mother-of-perl inlay!
Options:
5 inch Round-Screen B&W Monitor (shipping weight: 190lbs)
Latest High-Tech "Keypunch" style keyboard (your neighbors will hear you type)
Mouse
Mouse Food
Preorder yours today!
And remember: Real Computers Glow in the Dark! (apologies to fellow hams)
-
-- Charlie Wilkinson Freelance Deity - Fire & Brimstone in Stock - Smiting While-U-Wait!
...with out them, I couldn't cook my hotdog under 30 seconds.
and I'd have to use a crappy flatscreen.(i.e. all of them).
Not to mention, that with out them I wouldn't know that She'll give you ev'ry penny's worth
But it will cost you a dollar first.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
So you mean a computer at home is not the same as home audio...
and you assume tht everyone hookes their compute rup to one of those subwoofer/2 tiny speakers deal?
Interesting.
This is not a tube amp! It's is a preamp tube.
Nautel has been making solid-state high power AM rigs since the 1970s. They started with a 1 kW transmitter and now they make them up to 300 kW. FM up to 40 kW as well. Largely air-cooled. They are all built around hot-swappable power MOSFET modules that deliver a couple hundred watts each, fed into hybrid combiners. For more power, just build a cabinet that can hold more modules. Beauty is if you lose a module you don't go off the air, you only drop from 50 kW to 49.8 kW.
Thank you, thank you.
...because Tubes Rock!
Seems everyone has discussed the pros and cons of tubes vs. solid state for various applications. Most audiophiles don't own a boombox, and for the same reason, would not want this piece of junk.
Audiophile equipment is all broken out into its individual components, the higher end, the more pieces (separate pre- and power- amps, dual mono amps for driving two channels! etc.)
So, to get great sound out of your computer, you would want to take the digital signal and run it straight to a high end D/A converter (not the cheesy crap you'll find on any retail sound card) then take that signal and put run it to your high end hi-fi system or studio monitors.
audiophiles are DORKS! :-)
Man, I thought some of the other discussions on here get a little in-depth sometimes, but I can't understand a damn thing that most of these people posted. Is all that crap in your heads all the time? How do you function on a daily basis, when you understand how your ear is hearing sounds at a microscopic level?
My beliefs do not require that you agree with them.
The music industry is likely to squash any attempts to create or market an LP-ROM. Check out this site.
This is the exact tube they show in the pictures at HardOCP: a Sovtek 6922.
This tube stuff is all fun and good.(I guess) but what about sacraficing half a motherboard for some breakable sound stuff? Where the hell did all the pci slots go. My six are already full. i pick one up by tossing a sound card. I want More not less.
The high voltage anode supply is not a given. Many aircraft receivers were designed to use the 28V battery supply on the tube anodes, specifically to avoid the need for a vibrator or motor driven HV supply (big, noisy, unreliable...). The tubes don't deliver as much power that way, but they do work (especially some types intended for such use).
and there is a shirt to prove it.....
s to re/tubesrock.html
http://www.geekculture.com/geekculturestore/web
Wow, this is the best motherboard I have never seen! Now if only the server would stop timing out, I might actually be able to look at the veebeetzing thing....
ShoutOuts To all my VMS niggaz.Word!!!
Weren't most aircraft electronics from "back then" designed for 400 Hz AC (not Volts, cycles per second, as opposed to 60 cycle household current)? The higher frequency was so that transformers and filter chokes could use smaller, lighter iron cores.
I see even classic Slashdot is now pretty much unusable on dial up anymore.
Me, but I already have one
Know anyone who knows how to fix a wire recorder?
This thing uses a five or ten pound "cassette" to hold the wire spool it uses for audio recording. I even have a second (but broken) cassette for it.
hawk
hawk
Totally tubular, dude!
Agreed!
For guitars, tube amps just sound better. Digital modelling, etc., all try to REPRODUCE the sound of a tube amps, not best it. That's fairly telling. The reasons tube amps sound better for guitars are varied, but are mostly centered around overdriving the amp. The distortion comes on very smoothly as you roll the volume up, and responds to dynamics much better.A very big point with guitar amps is microphonics. Since the amplifier chassis tends to be built into the same cabinet as the speaker, all the tubes are vibrating with each note. This does all sorts of neat things to the sound, since the elements (plate, grid(s), cathode) are all vibrating with respect to each other. In REproduction, microphonic tubes are a very bad thing. But in a guitar amp, the amplifier is absolutely part of the instrument.
Some of the best audiophile home stereos I've heard have been tube (mid 70's Marantz gear), and some have been transistor (late 70's Marantz gear). But tube amps are just NOT cost effective anymore, and almost all of the supposed advantages are just audiophile snobbery.Agreed. Most of today's tube fascination is unjustified.
A tube output amplifier is *not* a high fidelity device in this day and age - by using tubes, you're forcing yourself to deal with the nonlinearities in the behavior of the tubes and, more importantly, of the output transformer which impedance-matches the tube to the speaker. Building a transformer to be a "straight wire with impedance matching" at any sort of power from 20Hz to 20kHz is non trivial, from the core up. (Power transformers from 50/60Hz are big and heavy, full of laminated iron sheets. Transformers for 15kHz (TV flyback transformer) are ferrite-cored. Hugely different magnetic properties of the core, and both of those devices are *within* the audio range!) There is no logical or rational reason, in this day and age, to use a tube output stage in a non-guitar amplifier.
However, in small signal stages, things are different. Since tubes run at higher voltages than comparable solid state components, induced noise is less significant. If your audio signal is floating around on a DC offset of 140V and you're inducing 500mV of noise into it, that's a hell of a lot less obtrusive than the same 500mV of noise induced on a 12V offset. Never mind that the interstage amplitudes also tend to be higher. There are a couple of issues, here, though. Tubes are larger, meaning that they have larger areas of conductors to pick up noise than, let's say, a surface-mount MOSFET on a ground-plane PC board. And vibration is strictly verboten; we don't want to color the music.
And tubes amplifiers tend to have high input and output impedances, which makes them ideal for pre-amp stages.
Audiophiles like tubes for the wrong reasons. If tubes add "warmth" to your music, the amplifier is probably driving them too hard and you're attenuating the high end (ie. poor design). But if a tube amplifier is indistinguishable from a semiconductor amplifier except that there's less hiss, then the tubes are doing their jobs.
As I told an "audiophile" once, they don't use Monster Cables in the recording studio... Balanced line XLR. Good engineering is always better than cheap crap sold in shiny blister packs. :)
Fire and Meat. Yummy.
It begs the question:
If tubes & FETs work on the same amplification principle -- voltage in begets current out (transconductance)--
why not use efficient, low-cost FETs?