It is interesting that you find the user experience better, because the Samsung team apparently didn't. In fact, they created a 260 page document pointing out just how much better the user experience was on the iPhone, and recommending that the iPhone approach be implemented.
When people say "look at all phones post-iPhone to see that they all copied Apple" they're generally referring to a large rectangle with round corners, and a large touch screen.
No, they are primarily referring to the user interface. If you recall, before the iPhone, smart phone user interfaces were horrendous. The iPhone showed that an easy to use interface with some thought put into it could sell the phone based on the user experience. Other companies saw the value of putting more effort into their GUIs. It is not that these companies ripped of the iPhone user experience (although Apple is arguing that Samsung went out of their way to do so), but that the iPhone is considered the catalyst that led to the current state of usable smart phones.
I think that you can see elements of inspiration from the iPhone in the newer phone UI's, but I don't think that these phone UI's blatantly copied the iPhone. However, I suspect that if Apple had never shown the value of good user experience, we'd still have a smart phone market with a lot of mediocre user interfaces.
Now, back to the case in point, I think it is fairly obvious that Samsung ripped off the iPhone GUI. For those of you who didn't bother with the article, this has nothing to do with rounded corners or the external appearance of the phone (although a lot of commenters and moderators on this story seem to think so. Rather, this is a 260 page document showing screen shots of the iPhone UI, showing how the corresponding panels in the Samsung UI are more difficult to use, and then recommending to change to the iPhone design and behavior.
I wouldn't say so. Samsung presented evidence of phones that were in development before the iphone was announced that looked very similar to the iphone. They came out afterwards, but were in development beforehand.
So, despite the fact that the linked document contains 260 slides showing side-by-side comparisons of the difference between the iPhone and the Samsung GUIs, with recommendations that Samsung implement the iPhone approach, which they then did, you are going to tell us that in fact Samsung already had a very similar phone and didn't copy the iPhone?
Fair point - if Yahoo implemented the old Google interface (you know, the one from before they decided they had to be Bing), I would switch immediately.
and I wish Facebook an accelerated death as is certain as people grow more wise to their feeding of personal details to an ad making machine
but in reality, Losse's words and opinion seem to have more to do with Losse's own life trajectory than with Facebook itself
human beings are social animals. this has powered Facebook's growth. but the Internet is still young, and you can forgive the world for not understanding the nature of the beast it was feeding. as it dawns on them what Facebook really means to their lives and their society, they will continue to be just as social, but on sites that do not exist for the goal that Facebook does
meanwhile, humans are not universally social, or social their entire lives. some are more introspective and seek a more monklike existence in order to plumb the depths of their spirit or their mind. this is 100% fine and I myself have this tendency. but i recognize that this tendency of mine, and as it exists also in Losse, is not an enemy of human sociability, nor should it be, nor should we evangelize that everyone should tune out and drop out, just like we should not evangelize that everyone should plug in and focus in
to each their own. Losse is making the mistake of projecting her own life's trajectory on the story of Facebook and/ or social networking in general. don't make the same mistake as Losse. unless you yourself are equally interested in tuning out and dropping out. in which case, this is fine, power to you. i hope something constructive comes out of it, for Losse, and for you. now unplug the computer
I can only imagine that the people who modded the parent up have never been to Phoenix and assumed that the counter arguments listed were valid. As someone who has lived there, allow me to clarify:
It is over 100 degrees for a significant amount of the year. If you go for a walk at night, it is still in the high 90s. Phoenix is the 6th largest city in the US, and is located in the middle of the desert. It has no semi-cool counter culture like nearby Tucson. It is just massive sprawl. Yes, it has great Mexican food, and 3 months of the winter are awesome, but the idea of people flocking there for hot tech jobs is insane.
Would you raise your children in a city where the only place you see grass is golf courses and cemeteries? Would you jump to move to a city with no distinctive downtown, but rather 4 million people living in uncontrolled desert sprawl, completely devastated by the housing crash? And, yes, in Phoenix, it was a crash - houses thrown up with the cheapest materials and labor, doubling in price after only 5 years, only to be devastated by the realization that the owners paid for a tiny lot in a 4 million person desert sprawl, with the closest attraction being Las Vegas?
So, if you think the GUI is hard to figure out, just go to a setting buried three levels deep behind a menu represented by an icon lacking text to fix it!
4. What is a surprise is that Sony didn't patent their design so they could be suing Apple right now for lifting it.
Not really a surprise if you read the Samsung filing. Apple didn't copy a design that they saw from Sony. An interview with a Sony designer described a concept for a phone that fit in the hand, had rounded corners, and a lack of buttons on the front of the device. Based on this, an Apple designer created a concept design of what this Sony phone would look like. Just to be clear - the screenshots that people will be posting links to in comments during the coming months are screen shots created by Apple. These are not designs that Sony created, although many posters will have that misunderstanding.
It will be very tempting for people to make posts saying "how can Apple sue Samsung for rounded corners when they stole the idea from Sony.". These comments will be modded highly, as there is a common misconception on slashdot that Apple has sued Samsung for rounded corners. Rather, Apple has sued Samsung for combining so many visual and behavioral elements from the iPhone and iPad that they have obviously ripped off the design. Any one of these elements in isolation does not infringe on the design, it is the sum of so many similarities. So many similarities, in fact, that Google actually demanded that Samsung alter their design.
I don't quite follow. In your examples you are providing a 50-60 percent discount, or providing a 25 percent discount and doing a decent amount of side work to get your product out there. In the publisher/distributor case, you are collecting 6%. Even in these examples, your end scenario is getting your product out in some mom and pop stores. How is this preferable to giving a 30 percent cut for national distribution with no demo work?
Interesting, how did you distribute your apps back then? Was there an store that distributed your applications and took less than a 30% cut?
Oh, wait, are you under the impression that you can only develop for Apple computers if you distribute through the app store and pay the $100 a year that you mention above? Are you under the impression that people can't download their apps from whatever store that you want without any interaction with the app store? Is there some sort of censorship that is applied to apps not downloaded via the app store? Or, do you think that Apple should be advertising your app through their store and handling transactions for free?
Perhaps it is the recent sandboxing that is upsetting you. Are you under the impression that apps can't be downloaded from your store that aren't sandboxed? Are you thinking that Apple should provide iCloud services for you for free?
I'd be curious of any solutions that you are aware of that provide a free store, free transaction processing, and free online storage of application specific data.
Which doesn't really look that similar to the first generation iPhone apart from the fact that it is a rectangular touch screen phone. It doesn't have a curved metal back like the first gen-iPhone, doesn't have similar side buttons, doesn't have a similar front panel design. The side and back appearance of the two phones are night and day different. The experience when turning on and interacting with the device is not similar to the iPhone.
Of course, you're insinuating that Apple scrambled with one month before announcement and redid their entire design to rip off the Prada, which I'm taking from you involves redoing the iPhone to be a touch screen based product. And, of course, this was a blatant copy, but LG never bothered to sue.
Although it is an oft repeated meme on slashdot, Apple did not sue over a curved rectangular design. I know that you've read that here a number of times in highly moderated comments, but that doesn't make it the case. I also know that you've read a number of times that the iPhone was ripped off from the LG Prada, but if you look at front, back, and side profiles, plus screen shots of the GUI, it will be obvious that this wasn't the case.
What Apple sued Samsung for was the fact that the Galaxy lineup copied the iPhone experience as a whole - the appearance of the device beyond a simple front profile, the user interactions, the general feel of screen layouts and icons. Any of these items on their own wouldn't be worth suing over. It is the combination of all of these elements together to create a user experience that is essentially identical to the iPhone that Apple is suing over.
Of course, why wouldn't you make a comment about the iPhone copying the Prada, or Apple suing Samsung over black rounded rectangles? The first visible comment in any story mentioning these items is guaranteed a +5 mod.
My Dad is interested in Netflix, but the problem is what to get for him. Apple TV ties him to a walled garden, Boxee is too complicated for him (seriously)
If Boxee is too complicated for him, then what is he planning on doing with the box that goes outside of what a walled garden (Apple TV) would provide?
Software Development. I think everyone should get it for free, because I know that if I want something I will build it myself
I follow up only because I'm confused after reading this thread. The parent asked you how you make a living, and you responded with software development. However, your comment above suggests that you think that software should be free. So, if you give your software away for free, then how do you make a living? Have you been financially successful based on a voluntary payment system? If so, could you provide some insight into how you made that work? It would probably be more interesting than 80% of slashdot articles.
Maybe people could USE THEIR OWN APP STORE? That way people could cut out google and deal directly with the consumer!
Oh wait IT ALREADY DOES THAT
Ooh, excellent idea! Developers should set up their own app stores! Instead of people going to the Android app store or the Apple app store, people will buy there apps from a litany of fly by night app stores of various repute.
The best part is that when non-technical people buy malware from these other stores, we can shake our heads at them and tell them that they should have known better. After all, if you are going to use any type of device, be it phone, computer, car, or refrigerator, you should be intimately familiar with the underlying technology and the consequences of your decisions.
But the number of Android users who are willing to pay for their software is simply too low.
Too low for what? There are hundreds and hundreds of thousands of applications on Android.
I'm not the parent, but I'd suspect that they are saying that the number of people willing to pay for apps isn't enough to sustain the "hundreds and hundreds of thousands of applications" that you rightfully mentioned.
Now, time will tell if the parent is correct, but in the context of reports on Android app purchases compared to iOS, it is an interesting topic for mobile app developers. Essentially, if I'm going to invest time into an app, and possibly pay an artist and some additional programmers, then what platform is the most worthwhile to target?
My wife has an iPod touch, which looks just like the early model iPhone, but it is much thinner. I have to say, I'd love having a phone exactly like that. Not because I'm a drooling fanboy who needs to have the latest shiny, thin, fancy thing, but because it is just a very nice form factor. Is that so unreasonable?
Ah, but it doesn't have to convert to USB. This is what you and apparently 2/3 of posters on this article don't seem to understand - the Apple connector can output to HDMI, S-Video, component video, VGA, RGB, component audio, etc. One cool thing about supporting component output is that you don't have to have a chip that can interpret USB on the device that you are outputting to. This means that you iProduct can be used to broadcast to most devices that you already own. It also allows device manufacturers to cut costs. You know all of those iPod stereo devices? They are just taking analog audio. Those machines at the gym that have screens that you can plug your iPhone into and watch your videos? They are just taking analog video.
Six weeks is not really an unreasonably short release cadence
But it is an unreasonably short update cadence for the user. You have totally missed the parent's point - people don't want to be updating their software every six weeks. For the home user, this is an annoyance. For the SMB or enterprise, this is a nightmare.
Just because you can release new features every six weeks doesn't mean that you should. As the parent said, this seems to be more for the "gee-whiz" factor than anything else. That, or some well intentioned soul doesn't understand that flooding the user base with software updates doesn't really equate to a good experience.
Rather like people pointing out the 21st century began on Jan 1, 2001, not on Jan 1, 2000 (while being utterly ignored by all the happy people partying.)
Maybe the people were partying becomes they saw some significance in the date changing from 1*** to 2*** and felt that had more meaning in their lives than a dictionary definition of a century or millenium.
Slashdot Mirror
It is interesting that you find the user experience better, because the Samsung team apparently didn't. In fact, they created a 260 page document pointing out just how much better the user experience was on the iPhone, and recommending that the iPhone approach be implemented.
No, they are primarily referring to the user interface. If you recall, before the iPhone, smart phone user interfaces were horrendous. The iPhone showed that an easy to use interface with some thought put into it could sell the phone based on the user experience. Other companies saw the value of putting more effort into their GUIs. It is not that these companies ripped of the iPhone user experience (although Apple is arguing that Samsung went out of their way to do so), but that the iPhone is considered the catalyst that led to the current state of usable smart phones.
I think that you can see elements of inspiration from the iPhone in the newer phone UI's, but I don't think that these phone UI's blatantly copied the iPhone. However, I suspect that if Apple had never shown the value of good user experience, we'd still have a smart phone market with a lot of mediocre user interfaces.
Now, back to the case in point, I think it is fairly obvious that Samsung ripped off the iPhone GUI. For those of you who didn't bother with the article, this has nothing to do with rounded corners or the external appearance of the phone (although a lot of commenters and moderators on this story seem to think so. Rather, this is a 260 page document showing screen shots of the iPhone UI, showing how the corresponding panels in the Samsung UI are more difficult to use, and then recommending to change to the iPhone design and behavior.
So, despite the fact that the linked document contains 260 slides showing side-by-side comparisons of the difference between the iPhone and the Samsung GUIs, with recommendations that Samsung implement the iPhone approach, which they then did, you are going to tell us that in fact Samsung already had a very similar phone and didn't copy the iPhone?
What would happen if Google started pulling results from Yahoo!?!?!?!
Fair point - if Yahoo implemented the old Google interface (you know, the one from before they decided they had to be Bing), I would switch immediately.
I hope that they succeed. It would be nice to have multiple viable search, etc solutions, rather than one good provider and awful competitors.
Geeze, just kidding...
Great point. That's why all of those tablets that were more expensive than the iPad sold so much better.
I can only imagine that the people who modded the parent up have never been to Phoenix and assumed that the counter arguments listed were valid. As someone who has lived there, allow me to clarify:
It is over 100 degrees for a significant amount of the year. If you go for a walk at night, it is still in the high 90s. Phoenix is the 6th largest city in the US, and is located in the middle of the desert. It has no semi-cool counter culture like nearby Tucson. It is just massive sprawl. Yes, it has great Mexican food, and 3 months of the winter are awesome, but the idea of people flocking there for hot tech jobs is insane.
Would you raise your children in a city where the only place you see grass is golf courses and cemeteries? Would you jump to move to a city with no distinctive downtown, but rather 4 million people living in uncontrolled desert sprawl, completely devastated by the housing crash? And, yes, in Phoenix, it was a crash - houses thrown up with the cheapest materials and labor, doubling in price after only 5 years, only to be devastated by the realization that the owners paid for a tiny lot in a 4 million person desert sprawl, with the closest attraction being Las Vegas?
So, if you think the GUI is hard to figure out, just go to a setting buried three levels deep behind a menu represented by an icon lacking text to fix it!
Not really a surprise if you read the Samsung filing. Apple didn't copy a design that they saw from Sony. An interview with a Sony designer described a concept for a phone that fit in the hand, had rounded corners, and a lack of buttons on the front of the device. Based on this, an Apple designer created a concept design of what this Sony phone would look like. Just to be clear - the screenshots that people will be posting links to in comments during the coming months are screen shots created by Apple. These are not designs that Sony created, although many posters will have that misunderstanding.
It will be very tempting for people to make posts saying "how can Apple sue Samsung for rounded corners when they stole the idea from Sony.". These comments will be modded highly, as there is a common misconception on slashdot that Apple has sued Samsung for rounded corners. Rather, Apple has sued Samsung for combining so many visual and behavioral elements from the iPhone and iPad that they have obviously ripped off the design. Any one of these elements in isolation does not infringe on the design, it is the sum of so many similarities. So many similarities, in fact, that Google actually demanded that Samsung alter their design.
I don't quite follow. In your examples you are providing a 50-60 percent discount, or providing a 25 percent discount and doing a decent amount of side work to get your product out there. In the publisher/distributor case, you are collecting 6%. Even in these examples, your end scenario is getting your product out in some mom and pop stores. How is this preferable to giving a 30 percent cut for national distribution with no demo work?
Interesting, how did you distribute your apps back then? Was there an store that distributed your applications and took less than a 30% cut?
Oh, wait, are you under the impression that you can only develop for Apple computers if you distribute through the app store and pay the $100 a year that you mention above? Are you under the impression that people can't download their apps from whatever store that you want without any interaction with the app store? Is there some sort of censorship that is applied to apps not downloaded via the app store? Or, do you think that Apple should be advertising your app through their store and handling transactions for free?
Perhaps it is the recent sandboxing that is upsetting you. Are you under the impression that apps can't be downloaded from your store that aren't sandboxed? Are you thinking that Apple should provide iCloud services for you for free?
I'd be curious of any solutions that you are aware of that provide a free store, free transaction processing, and free online storage of application specific data.
So, as an app developer, I could develop for iTunes, or an unproven solution that is just like iTunes, but without the user base?
Which doesn't really look that similar to the first generation iPhone apart from the fact that it is a rectangular touch screen phone. It doesn't have a curved metal back like the first gen-iPhone, doesn't have similar side buttons, doesn't have a similar front panel design. The side and back appearance of the two phones are night and day different. The experience when turning on and interacting with the device is not similar to the iPhone.
Of course, you're insinuating that Apple scrambled with one month before announcement and redid their entire design to rip off the Prada, which I'm taking from you involves redoing the iPhone to be a touch screen based product. And, of course, this was a blatant copy, but LG never bothered to sue.
Although it is an oft repeated meme on slashdot, Apple did not sue over a curved rectangular design. I know that you've read that here a number of times in highly moderated comments, but that doesn't make it the case. I also know that you've read a number of times that the iPhone was ripped off from the LG Prada, but if you look at front, back, and side profiles, plus screen shots of the GUI, it will be obvious that this wasn't the case.
What Apple sued Samsung for was the fact that the Galaxy lineup copied the iPhone experience as a whole - the appearance of the device beyond a simple front profile, the user interactions, the general feel of screen layouts and icons. Any of these items on their own wouldn't be worth suing over. It is the combination of all of these elements together to create a user experience that is essentially identical to the iPhone that Apple is suing over.
Of course, why wouldn't you make a comment about the iPhone copying the Prada, or Apple suing Samsung over black rounded rectangles? The first visible comment in any story mentioning these items is guaranteed a +5 mod.
Maybe Apple should come up with a solution like that. They could call it iCloud.
If Boxee is too complicated for him, then what is he planning on doing with the box that goes outside of what a walled garden (Apple TV) would provide?
I follow up only because I'm confused after reading this thread. The parent asked you how you make a living, and you responded with software development. However, your comment above suggests that you think that software should be free. So, if you give your software away for free, then how do you make a living? Have you been financially successful based on a voluntary payment system? If so, could you provide some insight into how you made that work? It would probably be more interesting than 80% of slashdot articles.
Ooh, excellent idea! Developers should set up their own app stores! Instead of people going to the Android app store or the Apple app store, people will buy there apps from a litany of fly by night app stores of various repute.
The best part is that when non-technical people buy malware from these other stores, we can shake our heads at them and tell them that they should have known better. After all, if you are going to use any type of device, be it phone, computer, car, or refrigerator, you should be intimately familiar with the underlying technology and the consequences of your decisions.
I'm not the parent, but I'd suspect that they are saying that the number of people willing to pay for apps isn't enough to sustain the "hundreds and hundreds of thousands of applications" that you rightfully mentioned.
Now, time will tell if the parent is correct, but in the context of reports on Android app purchases compared to iOS, it is an interesting topic for mobile app developers. Essentially, if I'm going to invest time into an app, and possibly pay an artist and some additional programmers, then what platform is the most worthwhile to target?
My wife has an iPod touch, which looks just like the early model iPhone, but it is much thinner. I have to say, I'd love having a phone exactly like that. Not because I'm a drooling fanboy who needs to have the latest shiny, thin, fancy thing, but because it is just a very nice form factor. Is that so unreasonable?
Ah, but it doesn't have to convert to USB. This is what you and apparently 2/3 of posters on this article don't seem to understand - the Apple connector can output to HDMI, S-Video, component video, VGA, RGB, component audio, etc. One cool thing about supporting component output is that you don't have to have a chip that can interpret USB on the device that you are outputting to. This means that you iProduct can be used to broadcast to most devices that you already own. It also allows device manufacturers to cut costs. You know all of those iPod stereo devices? They are just taking analog audio. Those machines at the gym that have screens that you can plug your iPhone into and watch your videos? They are just taking analog video.
Who know what wonders the rest of 2011 will bring for us!
But it is an unreasonably short update cadence for the user. You have totally missed the parent's point - people don't want to be updating their software every six weeks. For the home user, this is an annoyance. For the SMB or enterprise, this is a nightmare.
Just because you can release new features every six weeks doesn't mean that you should. As the parent said, this seems to be more for the "gee-whiz" factor than anything else. That, or some well intentioned soul doesn't understand that flooding the user base with software updates doesn't really equate to a good experience.
Maybe the people were partying becomes they saw some significance in the date changing from 1*** to 2*** and felt that had more meaning in their lives than a dictionary definition of a century or millenium.