Should you or anyone consider responding to my brief take on the issue above consider the following:
I have read extensively into the history of Palestine/Israel since well before British rule and until now, so please do not insult me with a response about needing to do some investigations. I have done a lot on my own to overcome the media and political bias dominant in the US regarding Israel. Do not ask for the entire list of books I have read because I am also immune to the ridiculous attempts to discredit them by all sorts of people. I am not an anti-Semite so do not accuse me of this. I was introduced to different perspective than what we have been spoon fed in the US about Isreal and the Palestinian savages by a Jewish friend in Australia. And so I began to think I need to learn more so I did. The places I got my knowledge are not wrong or propganda. They are academic endeavors into the history of the region layered with various memoirs and essays on the subject written by persons from many sides of the conflict (Zionists, anti-Semites, journalists and Jews troubled by a Zionism they feel has betrayed what they were taught). So if you wish to debate with me about this, do not insult me with glib comments about my lack of understanding or generalised assessments of me.
The palestinians elected a government that will hurt its neighbours and put their kids in the line of return fire. They got exactly what they asked for. Their own kids, dead.
One of Israels leaders said once that Israel will have peace with its neighbours the day they love their children more than they hate Israel. Egypt and Jordan wisened up. The palestinians haven't yet.
Your comments above are a bit lopsided.
Palestinians sit in a very different position than Egypt and Syria. The latter are countries which border Israel and have standing armies. Palestinians are a group of people living within Israel's international border (note that the Paelstinian territory is NOT a country). Through the 1920's, Jews and Palestinians lived relatively peaceful co-existence in Palestine under British Rule (where the Jewish Population was roughly 10%). There were some sporadic nutjobs on all 3 sides of the religious line (Jew, Christian and Muslim) terrorising the other, but these events were rare and generally dimissed by all as idiots.
Then Hitler came to power in 1933 and things really shifted. Suddenly the war is over and the country is flooded with Jews and Zionism really has a firm hold. Palestinians fear the rising Jewish population will take what little they have and marginalise them and the Jews are wanting a safe place to call their own which sadly will have to be at the expense of another group of people.
I was born in 1970 in the US in the state of Missouri and raised a Catholic. If the same thing happened in 1948 in Missouri as has happened in Palestine, I can assure you that nearly every Missourian would be supporting or doing EXACTLY what the Palestinians are doing and probably worse. I would do whatever it took to get rid of the people who took my grandparents home, or killed a family member or neighbor and made me live under apartheid like rules (limited travel capabilites, held in prison with prosecution or access to a lawyer, branded a terrorist for resisting, etc).
Make no mistake. There is a right and wrong position in this. The right are the ones trying to gain their dignity and fight for what was once theirs and the wrong are the ones who moved in and took it. Think long and hard about if someone were doing to you what Israel has and is doing to the Palestinians. They are not savages or terrorists. They are fighting for what was taken from them.
Further to this, the NHS has developed an online booking system for booking specialised appointments. If the dermatologists within 1 mile are all booked for a month, you can get in tomorrow anywhere else you want if you are willing to drive.
There are far too many myths in the US about how this or that is broken in the UK or other socialised systems. And those myths breed, survive and or are propogated on purpose. Its unbelievable how much people will eat it up.
If you are Spanish and use English to speak to Dutch guys in Amsterdam you are fine. But if you are American and expect them to speak in English, not so fine.
Its the expect bit that gives Americans a bad rep. I have lived abroad for over 7 years and shudder thinking of the stories where Americans betray all decency, manners and courtesy in the face of uncertainty (to be fair, the English are generally shit as well). That Spaniard is simply going to give English a try and see if it works, not really caring if it doesnt. The American will give it a try, but LOUD and exaggerate all body movements in an attempt to communicate not only their intent, but also the fact they are American.
My girlfriend works in hospitality. She and her friends can tell stories about much Americans complain about absolutely nothing. My theory for this is that we yanks have grown used to a level of service that is ridiculous, that when we travel, that the service in other countries mimicks the lifestyle... easy going. And this frustrates and annoys Americans. Most people know when this happens, Americans feel they need to let everyone know. And this is where we deserve our reputation.
You are making one small point in a larger scheme. I never said Europe was perfect. It has its problems. The use of CCTV is scary and I do not like it. But, in the scheme of things, that is one thing. There are many differences. For example, the press while annoying in europe are a lot more free do and investigate as they please without being taken to court or jailed for national security (there is talk of this in the US). Sure there are a few countries that are not moving in the right direction, but not many.
Let's compare a few things more:
-The EU does not have prisons that condone torture.
-Does not have a movement of people in government and in mass who label critics of the government traitors for criticing the government.
-Cannot legally bug or listen in on someone's lives without a warrant (I think there might be one or 2 countries where this is possible)
-I can see boobies on TV... regular TV. And there is cursing on TV.. regular YV.
As for the EU collecting passenger data, I knew it was being considered. And lets face it, its crap. But the EU is 'following' in the footsteps of the US. The are 'contemplating'. The EU was not and still is not doing it where the US is. In my understanding of things (reality) there is a difference between doing something and thinking about doing it. There is still plenty of time for people to stop it from happening. So when and if they decide to allow it to happen, you are allowed to bring that bit of arguement back to the table.
Furthermore, there are a great many governments and movements in the EU which are trying to move further away from the types of governments they were under through to the late 1980's. They are still debating (more like fussing) over a constitution and if the recent article in the economist is any reflection, then it might be a while. But they are working on it. I hope they get it right. And I hope they make it as good as ours was.
Any europeans care to correct me where I am wrong. I realise there are numerous members of in the EU and do not expect all of you to know everything about the other members, but if you can shed some light on your countries and the EU itself further, I would greatly appreciate it.
Tell you what genius. You come sit down with my girlfriend's family and have them tell you some things about how the soviets operated. You might see some frightening similarities.
The very idea that a person can be prosecuted or jailed for speaking publicly about a trial because it is in the interest of national security is VERY soviet.
Does it? Per a previous post, I believe that 20 years ago the percentage of totalitarian states in europe was around 50% and that has decreased to near 0%. So where is the constant and please list the countries which have drifted into totalitarian status in the last 20 years. by contrast, I bet I could name at least 10 off the top of my head that our now democratic.
In fact I have. I have spent the last 3 years living in and working in Spain and the UK. I would say there are much freer(sp?) states in Europe than the US. Many more.
I am missing your point about Europe and its relevance to my comment about the US slowly becoming a totalitarian state. That I know of, the number of totalitarian states in Europe has gone from about 50% in all of europe down to near 0% in the last 15-20 years. Sorry to ask and please forgive me, but can you please clarify because I am assuming I am completely missing something.
He has been modded Score: 3, Funny. Ummm... looking at his website, http://www.adamdoyle.net/, I would say he is rather serious and quite niave about how the privileges given to certain organisations are being abused and will be abused by further administrations Furthermore, these abuses will creep further into everyday liberties we take for granted. This is one step in many already taken and being taken towards a place far away from democracy and the idea of liberty we claim to cherish.
So discuss away. Have sock puppets discuss away. Have your wife discuss away. Set up a blog to record all dealings with said 3 letter organizations. So what if they try to gag you. Leak stuff to the press. Hell even DRUDGEREPORT would cover it, if nobody else would. They can't hide if you speak out.
You make light of this as if it is easy. When facing legal action, most people will succumb to pressure and retreat. The rare person who does is generally labelled a leftist lunatic who does not value nor deserve the 'freedom' and security of a 'democratic' nation.
We have a right to remain silent, and the right to SPEAK.
It seems from the article and the provisions of the patriot act, this person does not have the right to speak under threat of prosecution or jail.
The only question left is, what do you stand for? If you don't speak out, neither will the next guy and the guy after that. This is how tyranny wins.
You are telling the person to speak out, but the person can be prosecuted for doing it. Most people don't stand up to well in the face of tyranny which is why there are so many in the world and in history.
I wonder how you would act in a similar circumstance.
The problem is that the security model has not kept pace with the concept of "web services" offered by the banks. But if the banks were 100% liable for any loss, you'd see them focusing on the security.
Are you a communist? Regulating business is bad you communist leftist vagina. : P
You make valid points. But instead of debunking his points using only arguments, why dont you offer some facts instead of just making blanket statements questioning his facts. Where are those examples that define the whole picture you speak about? Don't tear his point apart without evidence. You sound like one of those snotty intellectual extreme left or right wingers who thinks s/he is smarter by pedantic dismal of someone's arguement then adds some insulting cunt-like remark such as, 'Go learn more, then talk.' Yet, you haven't taught me anything. It seems by your argument you don't know shit. You have just made me dislike your fucking arrogance. Lighten up.
....but the rival anti-war Democratic party is graining seats.
I really hope that spelling of 'graining' was intentional. Not that the r would have been added by any asian speaking Engrish to the word gaining, but it made me laugh nonetheless. Many, many thanks.
Do you know the story of Jean Charles de Menezes? He was the Brazilian guy who was shot in a London tube station after the bombings in London. He was tackled when he walked onto the train and shot 7 times in the head while face down.
I was working in London at the time and the initial claims all over the news by the police where that Menezes walked out of a building where suspected terrorists were living. They said he was carrying a back pack which they thought contained explosives. They said he refused to stop when they asked him to stop. They said he then ran down the escalator towards a train. The police said this is how they got things wrong and cunfused a Brazilian national as a terrorist.
Turns out a few days later, the story was completely different.
It is true, he lived in the same building as some terror suspects being monitored, but he never had a back pack, he was never asked to stop and based on the video footage from the security cameras shown all over the UK, he never ran once.
This is an extreme case, but outlines the abuse of power and loss of control police in any country can experience.
Incidentally, what happened to innocent until proven guilty? Since when did shooting first (even if the person is innocent) become accepted? Is this the former soviet union?
I am 36 and I think he was more than reasonable.
Can you please explain to me where it legally says that a secrutiy guy or manager at a store or a police officer has the right to inspect anything without probably cause?
And what are the 'real issues'? The ones you define or do we as individuals have the right to choose?
I would say he had plenty of rights taken away. He was asked to be searched without probable cause and asked to produce an ID. Sit down with some of my friends from Poland, Russia, Slovakia and East Germany and let them tell you about the value of these rights. Sit down with a jew who survived the holocaust and discuss the beuaty of these rights. Read a book about Germany in the 30's and how these rights slowly eroded because of fear. Read books about what happens to countries when these rights are eroded.. there is a trend when it happens.
I think this guy did you the greatest service.
Mate, the UK is not much better in this regard. After the 7 July bombings, they carried out on the spot judgement, sentencing and execution of a Brazilian national who was walking to the tube without a backpack. Metropolitcan police shot Jean Charles de Menezes in the head numerous times.
While this is an extreme case, the UK is not all that concerned about a lot of things it should be. The policemen were acquitted....
But hey, who really cares, at least the weather in London was nice yesterday. Too bad its shit today.
Are guns the only guage you are using as a comparison? There are far greater number of things than just this one thing which make up a country's oppressive/repressive nature.
There are heaps of shows in Oz that parody everything from sport, to business and news. I find it odd that this has happened. Especially considering the parody website does not appear to be making money from it.
Being an american/australian, I find Australia is a lot less repressive than the US, while the UK has its problems, not sure I would say that it is more repressive etc.
I for one welcome our new Aussie copyright litigator overlords.
This state of things was probably the underlying condition which inspired the french revolution... those who have money control the government to get richer while the lower classes remain lower and lower. This is the state of the world pretty much... read Viva La Revolution (a funny insightful book about the revolt) and also Confessions of an Economic Hitman. Class disparity still exists, yet some on the right in western countries argue the gap has narrowed. They arent thinking globally. After all it is our global village. The peasants are rising up, just as the colonists of the US rose up against those with the money and power that controlled them in 1776. Just some random thoughts to consider and which have already been stated elsewhere.
Slashdot Mirror
They are not trying to kill all the Jews. They are trying to get rid of an oppressor and invader.
Here is my take on the conflict as someone born and raised in America:
http://tech.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1082225&cid=26354409
Should you or anyone consider responding to my brief take on the issue above consider the following: I have read extensively into the history of Palestine/Israel since well before British rule and until now, so please do not insult me with a response about needing to do some investigations. I have done a lot on my own to overcome the media and political bias dominant in the US regarding Israel. Do not ask for the entire list of books I have read because I am also immune to the ridiculous attempts to discredit them by all sorts of people. I am not an anti-Semite so do not accuse me of this. I was introduced to different perspective than what we have been spoon fed in the US about Isreal and the Palestinian savages by a Jewish friend in Australia. And so I began to think I need to learn more so I did. The places I got my knowledge are not wrong or propganda. They are academic endeavors into the history of the region layered with various memoirs and essays on the subject written by persons from many sides of the conflict (Zionists, anti-Semites, journalists and Jews troubled by a Zionism they feel has betrayed what they were taught). So if you wish to debate with me about this, do not insult me with glib comments about my lack of understanding or generalised assessments of me.
The palestinians elected a government that will hurt its neighbours and put their kids in the line of return fire. They got exactly what they asked for. Their own kids, dead.
One of Israels leaders said once that Israel will have peace with its neighbours the day they love their children more than they hate Israel. Egypt and Jordan wisened up. The palestinians haven't yet.
Your comments above are a bit lopsided.
Palestinians sit in a very different position than Egypt and Syria. The latter are countries which border Israel and have standing armies. Palestinians are a group of people living within Israel's international border (note that the Paelstinian territory is NOT a country). Through the 1920's, Jews and Palestinians lived relatively peaceful co-existence in Palestine under British Rule (where the Jewish Population was roughly 10%). There were some sporadic nutjobs on all 3 sides of the religious line (Jew, Christian and Muslim) terrorising the other, but these events were rare and generally dimissed by all as idiots.
Then Hitler came to power in 1933 and things really shifted. Suddenly the war is over and the country is flooded with Jews and Zionism really has a firm hold. Palestinians fear the rising Jewish population will take what little they have and marginalise them and the Jews are wanting a safe place to call their own which sadly will have to be at the expense of another group of people.
I was born in 1970 in the US in the state of Missouri and raised a Catholic. If the same thing happened in 1948 in Missouri as has happened in Palestine, I can assure you that nearly every Missourian would be supporting or doing EXACTLY what the Palestinians are doing and probably worse. I would do whatever it took to get rid of the people who took my grandparents home, or killed a family member or neighbor and made me live under apartheid like rules (limited travel capabilites, held in prison with prosecution or access to a lawyer, branded a terrorist for resisting, etc).
Make no mistake. There is a right and wrong position in this. The right are the ones trying to gain their dignity and fight for what was once theirs and the wrong are the ones who moved in and took it. Think long and hard about if someone were doing to you what Israel has and is doing to the Palestinians. They are not savages or terrorists. They are fighting for what was taken from them.
Further to this, the NHS has developed an online booking system for booking specialised appointments. If the dermatologists within 1 mile are all booked for a month, you can get in tomorrow anywhere else you want if you are willing to drive. There are far too many myths in the US about how this or that is broken in the UK or other socialised systems. And those myths breed, survive and or are propogated on purpose. Its unbelievable how much people will eat it up.
If you are Spanish and use English to speak to Dutch guys in Amsterdam you are fine. But if you are American and expect them to speak in English, not so fine.
Its the expect bit that gives Americans a bad rep. I have lived abroad for over 7 years and shudder thinking of the stories where Americans betray all decency, manners and courtesy in the face of uncertainty (to be fair, the English are generally shit as well). That Spaniard is simply going to give English a try and see if it works, not really caring if it doesnt. The American will give it a try, but LOUD and exaggerate all body movements in an attempt to communicate not only their intent, but also the fact they are American.
My girlfriend works in hospitality. She and her friends can tell stories about much Americans complain about absolutely nothing. My theory for this is that we yanks have grown used to a level of service that is ridiculous, that when we travel, that the service in other countries mimicks the lifestyle... easy going. And this frustrates and annoys Americans. Most people know when this happens, Americans feel they need to let everyone know. And this is where we deserve our reputation.
You are making one small point in a larger scheme. I never said Europe was perfect. It has its problems. The use of CCTV is scary and I do not like it. But, in the scheme of things, that is one thing. There are many differences. For example, the press while annoying in europe are a lot more free do and investigate as they please without being taken to court or jailed for national security (there is talk of this in the US). Sure there are a few countries that are not moving in the right direction, but not many.
Let's compare a few things more: -The EU does not have prisons that condone torture. -Does not have a movement of people in government and in mass who label critics of the government traitors for criticing the government. -Cannot legally bug or listen in on someone's lives without a warrant (I think there might be one or 2 countries where this is possible) -I can see boobies on TV... regular TV. And there is cursing on TV.. regular YV.
As for the EU collecting passenger data, I knew it was being considered. And lets face it, its crap. But the EU is 'following' in the footsteps of the US. The are 'contemplating'. The EU was not and still is not doing it where the US is. In my understanding of things (reality) there is a difference between doing something and thinking about doing it. There is still plenty of time for people to stop it from happening. So when and if they decide to allow it to happen, you are allowed to bring that bit of arguement back to the table.
Furthermore, there are a great many governments and movements in the EU which are trying to move further away from the types of governments they were under through to the late 1980's. They are still debating (more like fussing) over a constitution and if the recent article in the economist is any reflection, then it might be a while. But they are working on it. I hope they get it right. And I hope they make it as good as ours was. Any europeans care to correct me where I am wrong. I realise there are numerous members of in the EU and do not expect all of you to know everything about the other members, but if you can shed some light on your countries and the EU itself further, I would greatly appreciate it.
Tell you what genius. You come sit down with my girlfriend's family and have them tell you some things about how the soviets operated. You might see some frightening similarities. The very idea that a person can be prosecuted or jailed for speaking publicly about a trial because it is in the interest of national security is VERY soviet.
Wow. That was a great read. I am indoctinated. FUCK YEAH!
Does it? Per a previous post, I believe that 20 years ago the percentage of totalitarian states in europe was around 50% and that has decreased to near 0%. So where is the constant and please list the countries which have drifted into totalitarian status in the last 20 years. by contrast, I bet I could name at least 10 off the top of my head that our now democratic.
In fact I have. I have spent the last 3 years living in and working in Spain and the UK. I would say there are much freer(sp?) states in Europe than the US. Many more.
I am missing your point about Europe and its relevance to my comment about the US slowly becoming a totalitarian state. That I know of, the number of totalitarian states in Europe has gone from about 50% in all of europe down to near 0% in the last 15-20 years. Sorry to ask and please forgive me, but can you please clarify because I am assuming I am completely missing something.
He has been modded Score: 3, Funny. Ummm... looking at his website, http://www.adamdoyle.net/, I would say he is rather serious and quite niave about how the privileges given to certain organisations are being abused and will be abused by further administrations Furthermore, these abuses will creep further into everyday liberties we take for granted. This is one step in many already taken and being taken towards a place far away from democracy and the idea of liberty we claim to cherish.
So discuss away. Have sock puppets discuss away. Have your wife discuss away. Set up a blog to record all dealings with said 3 letter organizations. So what if they try to gag you. Leak stuff to the press. Hell even DRUDGEREPORT would cover it, if nobody else would. They can't hide if you speak out.
You make light of this as if it is easy. When facing legal action, most people will succumb to pressure and retreat. The rare person who does is generally labelled a leftist lunatic who does not value nor deserve the 'freedom' and security of a 'democratic' nation.
We have a right to remain silent, and the right to SPEAK.
It seems from the article and the provisions of the patriot act, this person does not have the right to speak under threat of prosecution or jail.
The only question left is, what do you stand for? If you don't speak out, neither will the next guy and the guy after that. This is how tyranny wins.
You are telling the person to speak out, but the person can be prosecuted for doing it. Most people don't stand up to well in the face of tyranny which is why there are so many in the world and in history. I wonder how you would act in a similar circumstance.
free-est nation in the world my ass. the country is slowly turning into totalitarian soviet rule under the guise of democracy.
The problem is that the security model has not kept pace with the concept of "web services" offered by the banks. But if the banks were 100% liable for any loss, you'd see them focusing on the security.
Are you a communist? Regulating business is bad you communist leftist vagina. : P
Do US patents apply in Canada?
You make valid points. But instead of debunking his points using only arguments, why dont you offer some facts instead of just making blanket statements questioning his facts. Where are those examples that define the whole picture you speak about? Don't tear his point apart without evidence. You sound like one of those snotty intellectual extreme left or right wingers who thinks s/he is smarter by pedantic dismal of someone's arguement then adds some insulting cunt-like remark such as, 'Go learn more, then talk.' Yet, you haven't taught me anything. It seems by your argument you don't know shit. You have just made me dislike your fucking arrogance. Lighten up.
....but the rival anti-war Democratic party is graining seats.
I really hope that spelling of 'graining' was intentional. Not that the r would have been added by any asian speaking Engrish to the word gaining, but it made me laugh nonetheless. Many, many thanks.
CRAP. I just saw some of the other posts. Please mod me redundant. : (
Exactly, I would like to examine the Engrish (sic) before I buy into practical application of this.
Do you know the story of Jean Charles de Menezes? He was the Brazilian guy who was shot in a London tube station after the bombings in London. He was tackled when he walked onto the train and shot 7 times in the head while face down.
I was working in London at the time and the initial claims all over the news by the police where that Menezes walked out of a building where suspected terrorists were living. They said he was carrying a back pack which they thought contained explosives. They said he refused to stop when they asked him to stop. They said he then ran down the escalator towards a train. The police said this is how they got things wrong and cunfused a Brazilian national as a terrorist. Turns out a few days later, the story was completely different. It is true, he lived in the same building as some terror suspects being monitored, but he never had a back pack, he was never asked to stop and based on the video footage from the security cameras shown all over the UK, he never ran once. This is an extreme case, but outlines the abuse of power and loss of control police in any country can experience. Incidentally, what happened to innocent until proven guilty? Since when did shooting first (even if the person is innocent) become accepted? Is this the former soviet union?
I am 36 and I think he was more than reasonable. Can you please explain to me where it legally says that a secrutiy guy or manager at a store or a police officer has the right to inspect anything without probably cause?
And what are the 'real issues'? The ones you define or do we as individuals have the right to choose?
I would say he had plenty of rights taken away. He was asked to be searched without probable cause and asked to produce an ID. Sit down with some of my friends from Poland, Russia, Slovakia and East Germany and let them tell you about the value of these rights. Sit down with a jew who survived the holocaust and discuss the beuaty of these rights. Read a book about Germany in the 30's and how these rights slowly eroded because of fear. Read books about what happens to countries when these rights are eroded.. there is a trend when it happens.
I think this guy did you the greatest service.
Mate, the UK is not much better in this regard. After the 7 July bombings, they carried out on the spot judgement, sentencing and execution of a Brazilian national who was walking to the tube without a backpack. Metropolitcan police shot Jean Charles de Menezes in the head numerous times.
While this is an extreme case, the UK is not all that concerned about a lot of things it should be. The policemen were acquitted....
But hey, who really cares, at least the weather in London was nice yesterday. Too bad its shit today.
George Bush in a similar thread has vowed to do away with the Axis of Bad content on US citizen's PCs by disabling the internet entirely.
Are guns the only guage you are using as a comparison? There are far greater number of things than just this one thing which make up a country's oppressive/repressive nature.
There are heaps of shows in Oz that parody everything from sport, to business and news. I find it odd that this has happened. Especially considering the parody website does not appear to be making money from it. Being an american/australian, I find Australia is a lot less repressive than the US, while the UK has its problems, not sure I would say that it is more repressive etc. I for one welcome our new Aussie copyright litigator overlords.
This state of things was probably the underlying condition which inspired the french revolution... those who have money control the government to get richer while the lower classes remain lower and lower. This is the state of the world pretty much... read Viva La Revolution (a funny insightful book about the revolt) and also Confessions of an Economic Hitman. Class disparity still exists, yet some on the right in western countries argue the gap has narrowed. They arent thinking globally. After all it is our global village. The peasants are rising up, just as the colonists of the US rose up against those with the money and power that controlled them in 1776. Just some random thoughts to consider and which have already been stated elsewhere.