She could have ruined you afterwards, even if she changed her mind a day afterwards. "I told him to stop several times and he didn't". "Oh but officer, I knew she actually wanted it".
Even if you are completely in the right, you are risking your job, several months of disruption of your life, and several thousand dollars in legal fees.
I don't know... that seems like moronic risk to me.
---
All this is somewhat difference if you have a relationship with the girl but you clearly didn't and neither did Assange with his two ladies. If some random girl got pissed at you after you did what she said, then she is psycho. I also don't get involved with psycho's.
I guess I'm just more careful about it than some here seem to be.
I've seen one friend get his life really badly screwed up over one of these issues (the new orleans thing).
I really take the "no means no" thing seriously and directly. It's one of those areas where "it's all fun and games until the girl changes her mind and involves the law".
I know several disagree and buy into the game that no means yes but it's a very risky game.
Re:but before you go...
on
Tron: Legacy
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· Score: 1
Given how different she was than in House, I agree. A chameleon like bit of acting. She has range as an actress.
Not sure if her star power exceeds the TV level yet tho.
I agree with you on the assange thing- why not just get up out of bed. he wasn't keeping them there.
If they said no and he ignored them, then legally he's on the hook.
This is something squirrelly in European law about having sex under false pretenses tho.
It's not the stranger in the dark real deal. This discussion is about something different. Guys who say "she means yes when she says no". I know that happens. But unless you talked about it beforehand and you proceed, you are taking a serious risk.
--- Oh, a reasonable estimate is over 9,000 times with 12 different women over 32 years. Sooo... I have a bit of experience. I have always taken no to mean no unless we talk about it before hand. It may take a little longer and it may lose some opportunities but it gets the kind of lady's I prefer anyway (i.e. with their head screwed on straight).
Ah. Okay, I did take it wrong. Stupid text comments.
I was saying that most people are much more comfortable with a mate who complies with their fantasy of a mate rather than being real people with real needs, wants and desires.
---
I adore women but I don't put them on a pedestal like I did when I was young. I believe in love, but not in "true love" that overcomes everything. I think men and women that want sex (or a particular kind) at a level their spouse doesn't agree with, will almost always eventually cheat. I accepted the premise that everyone lies. It doesn't bug me when I realize I'm being lied to.
It does bug me when a person chooses someone else over me. You know... "lets go to a movie"-- "Great"...call back 30 minutes later "so and so wants to go to the museum so I'm skipping the movie"
I have a different view of male/female dynamics than the one you propose. I think that many young males are grossly misled by television and hollywood entertainment into very unrealistic positions.
--- Watching a justice league DC set in the 1950's and Wonder Woman released a bunch of korean female prisoners, gave them guns, and set them on their captors who had been abusing them. She told superman to take it and stick it when he alluded that this was wrong. It's quite good- on netflix.
Oh, and I get now that you were asking, "Have you ever bought a woman gifts such as flowers before you had a relationship with her to entice her into a relationship with you".
No. I haven't bought flowers.
I did go on one date to an expensive restaurant tho. And it was very distasteful experience.
And... on the flip side, about 10 years ago, a lady did take me out me to an expensive restaurant. Nothing came of that either tho we flirted around a bit, there wasn't enough chemistry/shared interests for a full time relationship with her which is what she was looking for.
Start with an antiquated assumption that the guy should pay even if they make less money, sprinkle on a little fear of child support for life if she gets pregnant, along with perhaps some tertiary fear of STDs. And of course, guys fall in love fast and get their guts ripped out easily by women who have a different speed for emotional involvement (often finally ready as the guy is headed out the door).
It's not our father's and grandfather's situation- you can't get a girl pregnant and walk on her as used to happen unless you can leave the country or have an all cash job and can move state to state. Of course then, you knew pregnancy was likely- today the girl can say she's on birth control when she really isn't (lesson- take care of your own protection).
You get hit for 25% of your income, your attractiveness to quality spouses drops a lot.
I find guys are more cautious these days and we see more articles about the dynamic with women changing (including guys openly dating multiple girls and telling the girls they are free to leave if they are not happy). I also see articles indicating the guys are less likely to marry.
On the flip side, I see more house husbands, and more husbands with wives who make more money- so the young ladies are a little more realistic than my college friend who never got married because she insisted on someone who was good looking, tall, rich, and wanted to have 4 or more kids while she stayed home.
Women are not the sole gateway any more. They pursue men more than they used to. Quality men know they have options.
I get your point. "Pursuing" is not the same as "ignoring them when they say "no" and you don't have a clear understanding of what they mean by that".
Men who think and act that way are taking a huge risk.
I basically just take no as no and walk away until it turns into yes which it does about half the time and everyone is happy. Lots of females pursue males. I was married from 18 to 26 and really am not as obsessed with picking up women as most men. I enjoy it and spend a lot more time on it than most men tho- typically 2 to 4 hours, three times a week so about 9 to 12 hours a week. Most men just race to their personal orgasm and then wonder why women are not interested.
I've gotten lots of cards, some chocolate, treated to special dinners for my favorite foods a few dozen times, special permissions to do unreasonable things, treated to a weekend getaway, and of course regular birthday and christmas gifts.
A lot of help thinking about things- especially social problems with my ex, or with a co-worker. One of my platonic ex's still helps me with this a lot.
words of affirmation, quality time, receiving gifts, acts of service, or physical touch.
I use all five once I'm in a relationship. I use all five at some level before I'm in a relationship.
Flowers would be under gifts. Just remember, flowers or sports car-- both are good for "1 point". It truly is the "thought that counts" for most women.
I don't play games of pursuit and have not had any trouble getting laid. I did have to pass on particular women who had these psychosis' but my longest dry period in my entire life was under six months and that was my fault since I was so torn up over the end of the prior relationship I really didn't care about sex with anyone for a while. I got better and things fell into place quickly. Right now I have a couple girlfriends and three promising fallback options I flirt with that would go somewhere if I had interest.
I'm fit, tall, good looking, good hygiene, good teeth, and have a good job- but I'm not superhandsome (thinning hair) and I'm an introvert in person. I'm threatened by and not interested in superconfident superpretty women sticking with relatively normal, average good looks women.
It's not necessary to play the risky games for sex and emotional connection. Any average male has several interested female prospects as long as he has a job, isn't rude, and doesn't stink. It gets better really fast after 30 too when a lot of jocky guys get fat, years of not brushing teeth starts to build up, etc.
that a woman can wear a shirt in which you can see everything down to her waiste when she bends over but I get special training to avoid looking and could get a violation and coaching I did.
I don't mind if they do this. I mind that I would get in trouble for "elevator eyes".
They would do the same thing if I had a v neck shirt open to 3" above my belly button.
Hell, I can see the bottom of their bra sometimes when they don't bend over and sometimes don't see the bottom of a bra.
Ah. True. I didn't bother too look her up since that was a less direct connection than Real Genius and Galaxy Quest.
Melanie started off as a stereotype and then became a scary real person over the course of the film. I can't remember if she and the nebish hooked up at the end or not. I think they did in a classic hollywood ending.
You still didn't clarify why you felt the need to say poor thing. I recognize it as an attack- but not the particular angle.
Your belief or disbelief in my statement doesn't matter to me. I'll be having sex for two to three hours tonight anyway. The average male takes under 15 minutes. No wonder women are not satisfied.
I agree. I think in a standing relationship with a girlfriend, you would be able to argue a pattern of behavior with "no" essentially being understood. You can't argue that with a new girl tho.
But, the other situation also happens where you are in a cold period, she says no and means it, you misread and she feels like you raped her.
I see the absurdity. I have lived the bias over my lifetime.
But I'm talking reality here.
Hell, I had a friend two years ago that went to new orleans. Had a three way with a girl and her boy friend. She didn't even say no. But afterwards, she felt bad, had proof she'd had a drink and so wasn't culpable.
He spent several thousand dollars in legal fees, lost a very promising job, and was at risk of going to jail for a while. The boyfriend wasn't even charged.
It woke my eyes up to the danger of sleeping with women you meet at a bar in New Orleans.
---
Things are very slowly changing for guys. The fact they send female teachers to jail now too is a major change. I, myself, would have love to have been abused by Mrs Havey back in 9th grade. Back then the guy teacher would be ruined and the girl would be viewed as taken advantage of while the female teacher would at worst change schools and the boys would be viewed as lucky studs.
It is possible to physically abuse male spouses these days (women are actually very violent too and it's an under reported crime).
It's possible for females to sexually harass men.
I think rape is rare but, especially with sex drugs, it's possible society may shift around there. Generally, the male is stronger- so I imagine it would have to be a weak or helpless male to get a successful conviction.
I've watched it three times so far. I felt intense joy, tension, and excitement even the third time. The third time, I even knew exactly how they did it. Didn't matter.
I saw them tumbling, jumping, leaping, punching. Instead of, "the hero is crouching to leap", "someone's getting hit", "there's a pants leg flying past a door upside down", "Someone's bouncing off the wall on one hand", "the bad guy is unconscious".
And...It was REAL, not CGI. CGI is great when you are not wanting to impress. You know.. "here they are walking a long a ledge" and it looks okay. But take a real picture of them really walking along a real ledge 1000' up, and in our gut we feel tension because the actors are really there. CGI is not there yet. It may never be there. For all the money, it looks fake when it's 100% CGI. It looks okay to good when they take real things and remove the safety lines or merge them together.
But I have no emotional reaction for a slowmotion fake CGI blade barely missing the actor's throat in slow motion.
I have a strong emotion to two men tumbling down a gravity shifting tunnel desperately and wildly punching each other trying to win a fight.
If you do any of those, then you are liable for arrest, fines, losing your job. It happens every day.
What you are saying went out of style in the 80's if not the 70's. Anyone with a decent job and assets (hell, even a promising future) is being an idiot and taking a huge gamble if they behave like this.
In the US, having that information leaked would make it much more difficult to get a fair trial and select a jury.
OTH, from some other posts I read this is a sub $1000 fine issue, that assange was told there was no issue prior to his leaving sweden, that the swedish government is completely ignoring a documented murder of a swedish citizen, that interpol is involved in this in an unprecedented way.
I imagine that Assange, as most people, is discovering how tough he really is now that multiple governments are persecuting him. If he survives, he's going to be one tough nut. Prior to now he probably felt invulnerable.
Slashdot Mirror
Energy remains constant at about 10x the minimum wage per "barrel of oil" worth of energy.
There are many alternatives waiting to come on line at 12x the minimum wage. Some of them are dropping in cost.
If it is $500 a barrel in 2050, then the minimum wage would be $125 an hour.
Energy costs have roughly doubled since the mid 80's.
At current rates (~$8->$16->$32), $32 is a likely rate so a likely cost would be ~$300 a barrel.
That also fits using oil costs ($80->$160->$320).
Any time oil gets too expensive, there are tons of natural gas, solar, nuclear, plants waiting to come to market.
You took all the risk, she took none.
She could have ruined you afterwards, even if she changed her mind a day afterwards. "I told him to stop several times and he didn't". "Oh but officer, I knew she actually wanted it".
Even if you are completely in the right, you are risking your job, several months of disruption of your life, and several thousand dollars in legal fees.
I don't know... that seems like moronic risk to me.
---
All this is somewhat difference if you have a relationship with the girl but you clearly didn't and neither did Assange with his two ladies. If some random girl got pissed at you after you did what she said, then she is psycho. I also don't get involved with psycho's.
Yea.
I guess I'm just more careful about it than some here seem to be.
I've seen one friend get his life really badly screwed up over one of these issues (the new orleans thing).
I really take the "no means no" thing seriously and directly. It's one of those areas where "it's all fun and games until the girl changes her mind and involves the law".
I know several disagree and buy into the game that no means yes but it's a very risky game.
Given how different she was than in House, I agree. A chameleon like bit of acting. She has range as an actress.
Not sure if her star power exceeds the TV level yet tho.
I agree with you on the assange thing- why not just get up out of bed. he wasn't keeping them there.
If they said no and he ignored them, then legally he's on the hook.
This is something squirrelly in European law about having sex under false pretenses tho.
It's not the stranger in the dark real deal. This discussion is about something different. Guys who say "she means yes when she says no". I know that happens. But unless you talked about it beforehand and you proceed, you are taking a serious risk.
---
Oh, a reasonable estimate is over 9,000 times with 12 different women over 32 years. Sooo... I have a bit of experience.
I have always taken no to mean no unless we talk about it before hand. It may take a little longer and it may lose some opportunities but it gets the kind of lady's I prefer anyway (i.e. with their head screwed on straight).
Life is that simple sonny boy when the law gets involved.
And they won't stop screwing you when you say "no" either.
Ah. Okay, I did take it wrong. Stupid text comments.
I was saying that most people are much more comfortable with a mate who complies with their fantasy of a mate rather than being real people with real needs, wants and desires.
---
I adore women but I don't put them on a pedestal like I did when I was young. I believe in love, but not in "true love" that overcomes everything. I think men and women that want sex (or a particular kind) at a level their spouse doesn't agree with, will almost always eventually cheat. I accepted the premise that everyone lies. It doesn't bug me when I realize I'm being lied to.
It does bug me when a person chooses someone else over me. You know... "lets go to a movie"-- "Great"...call back 30 minutes later "so and so wants to go to the museum so I'm skipping the movie"
I have a different view of male/female dynamics than the one you propose. I think that many young males are grossly misled by television and hollywood entertainment into very unrealistic positions.
---
Watching a justice league DC set in the 1950's and Wonder Woman released a bunch of korean female prisoners, gave them guns, and set them on their captors who had been abusing them. She told superman to take it and stick it when he alluded that this was wrong. It's quite good- on netflix.
Oh, and I get now that you were asking, "Have you ever bought a woman gifts such as flowers before you had a relationship with her to entice her into a relationship with you".
No. I haven't bought flowers.
I did go on one date to an expensive restaurant tho. And it was very distasteful experience.
And... on the flip side, about 10 years ago, a lady did take me out me to an expensive restaurant. Nothing came of that either tho we flirted around a bit, there wasn't enough chemistry/shared interests for a full time relationship with her which is what she was looking for.
For a guy who has something to lose...
Start with an antiquated assumption that the guy should pay even if they make less money, sprinkle on a little fear of child support for life if she gets pregnant, along with perhaps some tertiary fear of STDs. And of course, guys fall in love fast and get their guts ripped out easily by women who have a different speed for emotional involvement (often finally ready as the guy is headed out the door).
It's not our father's and grandfather's situation- you can't get a girl pregnant and walk on her as used to happen unless you can leave the country or have an all cash job and can move state to state. Of course then, you knew pregnancy was likely- today the girl can say she's on birth control when she really isn't (lesson- take care of your own protection).
You get hit for 25% of your income, your attractiveness to quality spouses drops a lot.
I find guys are more cautious these days and we see more articles about the dynamic with women changing (including guys openly dating multiple girls and telling the girls they are free to leave if they are not happy). I also see articles indicating the guys are less likely to marry.
On the flip side, I see more house husbands, and more husbands with wives who make more money- so the young ladies are a little more realistic than my college friend who never got married because she insisted on someone who was good looking, tall, rich, and wanted to have 4 or more kids while she stayed home.
Women are not the sole gateway any more. They pursue men more than they used to. Quality men know they have options.
I get your point. "Pursuing" is not the same as "ignoring them when they say "no" and you don't have a clear understanding of what they mean by that".
Men who think and act that way are taking a huge risk.
I basically just take no as no and walk away until it turns into yes which it does about half the time and everyone is happy. Lots of females pursue males. I was married from 18 to 26 and really am not as obsessed with picking up women as most men. I enjoy it and spend a lot more time on it than most men tho- typically 2 to 4 hours, three times a week so about 9 to 12 hours a week. Most men just race to their personal orgasm and then wonder why women are not interested.
I don't think that has happened.
I've gotten lots of cards, some chocolate, treated to special dinners for my favorite foods a few dozen times, special permissions to do unreasonable things, treated to a weekend getaway, and of course regular birthday and christmas gifts.
A lot of help thinking about things- especially social problems with my ex, or with a co-worker. One of my platonic ex's still helps me with this a lot.
Oh and thoughtless/automatic flowers/gifts are not worth much and may even be counted as a negative.
Five languages of love.
words of affirmation, quality time, receiving gifts, acts of service, or physical touch.
I use all five once I'm in a relationship. I use all five at some level before I'm in a relationship.
Flowers would be under gifts. Just remember, flowers or sports car-- both are good for "1 point". It truly is the "thought that counts" for most women.
I don't play games of pursuit and have not had any trouble getting laid. I did have to pass on particular women who had these psychosis' but my longest dry period in my entire life was under six months and that was my fault since I was so torn up over the end of the prior relationship I really didn't care about sex with anyone for a while. I got better and things fell into place quickly. Right now I have a couple girlfriends and three promising fallback options I flirt with that would go somewhere if I had interest.
I'm fit, tall, good looking, good hygiene, good teeth, and have a good job- but I'm not superhandsome (thinning hair) and I'm an introvert in person. I'm threatened by and not interested in superconfident superpretty women sticking with relatively normal, average good looks women.
It's not necessary to play the risky games for sex and emotional connection. Any average male has several interested female prospects as long as he has a job, isn't rude, and doesn't stink. It gets better really fast after 30 too when a lot of jocky guys get fat, years of not brushing teeth starts to build up, etc.
that a woman can wear a shirt in which you can see everything down to her waiste when she bends over but I get special training to avoid looking and could get a violation and coaching I did.
I don't mind if they do this. I mind that I would get in trouble for "elevator eyes".
They would do the same thing if I had a v neck shirt open to 3" above my belly button.
Hell, I can see the bottom of their bra sometimes when they don't bend over and sometimes don't see the bottom of a bra.
Ah. True. I didn't bother too look her up since that was a less direct connection than Real Genius and Galaxy Quest.
Melanie started off as a stereotype and then became a scary real person over the course of the film. I can't remember if she and the nebish hooked up at the end or not. I think they did in a classic hollywood ending.
Silence is agreement.
Saying something is agreement.
Uh... When did you stop beating your wife?
You still didn't clarify why you felt the need to say poor thing. I recognize it as an attack- but not the particular angle.
Your belief or disbelief in my statement doesn't matter to me. I'll be having sex for two to three hours tonight anyway.
The average male takes under 15 minutes. No wonder women are not satisfied.
I agree. I think in a standing relationship with a girlfriend, you would be able to argue a pattern of behavior with "no" essentially being understood. You can't argue that with a new girl tho.
But, the other situation also happens where you are in a cold period, she says no and means it, you misread and she feels like you raped her.
I see the absurdity. I have lived the bias over my lifetime.
But I'm talking reality here.
Hell, I had a friend two years ago that went to new orleans. Had a three way with a girl and her boy friend.
She didn't even say no. But afterwards, she felt bad, had proof she'd had a drink and so wasn't culpable.
He spent several thousand dollars in legal fees, lost a very promising job, and was at risk of going to jail for a while.
The boyfriend wasn't even charged.
It woke my eyes up to the danger of sleeping with women you meet at a bar in New Orleans.
---
Things are very slowly changing for guys. The fact they send female teachers to jail now too is a major change. I, myself, would have love to have been abused by Mrs Havey back in 9th grade. Back then the guy teacher would be ruined and the girl would be viewed as taken advantage of while the female teacher would at worst change schools and the boys would be viewed as lucky studs.
It is possible to physically abuse male spouses these days (women are actually very violent too and it's an under reported crime).
It's possible for females to sexually harass men.
I think rape is rare but, especially with sex drugs, it's possible society may shift around there. Generally, the male is stronger- so I imagine it would have to be a weak or helpless male to get a successful conviction.
I've watched it three times so far. I felt intense joy, tension, and excitement even the third time. The third time, I even knew exactly how they did it. Didn't matter.
I saw them tumbling, jumping, leaping, punching.
Instead of, "the hero is crouching to leap", "someone's getting hit", "there's a pants leg flying past a door upside down", "Someone's bouncing off the wall on one hand", "the bad guy is unconscious".
And...It was REAL, not CGI. CGI is great when you are not wanting to impress. You know.. "here they are walking a long a ledge" and it looks okay. But take a real picture of them really walking along a real ledge 1000' up, and in our gut we feel tension because the actors are really there. CGI is not there yet. It may never be there. For all the money, it looks fake when it's 100% CGI. It looks okay to good when they take real things and remove the safety lines or merge them together.
But I have no emotional reaction for a slowmotion fake CGI blade barely missing the actor's throat in slow motion.
I have a strong emotion to two men tumbling down a gravity shifting tunnel desperately and wildly punching each other trying to win a fight.
man... de nial isn't just a river in egypt.
if the lady feels bad afterwards, it goes like this.
He raped me.
No I didn't .
Did she say "no""
uh.. yes but she "meant" yes.
No really, you don't understand...
She was asking for it.
???
All I did was state reality.
No need for sympathy here. I'm probably top 20% in most areas and top 10% in the sexual arena. Ah but for another 1/2" and I'd be top 5%.
If you do any of those, then you are liable for arrest, fines, losing your job.
It happens every day.
What you are saying went out of style in the 80's if not the 70's. Anyone with a decent job and assets (hell, even a promising future) is being an idiot and taking a huge gamble if they behave like this.
In the US, having that information leaked would make it much more difficult to get a fair trial and select a jury.
OTH, from some other posts I read this is a sub $1000 fine issue, that assange was told there was no issue prior to his leaving sweden, that the swedish government is completely ignoring a documented murder of a swedish citizen, that interpol is involved in this in an unprecedented way.
I imagine that Assange, as most people, is discovering how tough he really is now that multiple governments are persecuting him. If he survives, he's going to be one tough nut. Prior to now he probably felt invulnerable.
It's quite simple.
Unless they tell you before hand and negotiate an alternate word for "no" (like say... watermelon), then no means no.